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he Verin - Lanfear Connection

by Tamyrlin: 2003-05-10 | 4 out of 10 (4 votes)

Previous Categories: Verin - Motivations and Plans

I just posted a question in regards to Lanfear and Verin under the RJ Questions post on the General board. This brought up old and dear memories of long battles concerning the connection between my two favorite female characters. So, in the Spirit of renewal, and in hope of additional converts to my Faction, I give you my Verin and Lanfear Connection theory.

Faction: Verin & Lanfear

Theory:

The most important parts of this theory occur within books 2-4. We come to know Verin and Lanfear at the beginning of The Great Hunt. Our first real encounter with Verin happens when she is discussing the dark prophecy with Siuan. By the way, I do not believe that Verin is Black Ajah. She says:

TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 7 - Blood Calls Blood

Verin tilted her head, peering at her notes in thought. "Possibly. It has the form of some of the few dark prophecies we know. And parts of it are clear enough. It could still be only a taunt, though." She rested a finger on one line. " Daughter of the Night, she walks again.' That can only mean Lanfear is loose again. Or someone wants us to think she is."

And, just as a funny point, she does mention the Dark One as the Great Lord in this same chapter (however, I do NOT believe she is Black Ajah).

TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 7 - Blood Calls Blood

"I can only give you what I know, Mother," Verin said, looking up from her notes, "and leave the decision in your hands. I believe the last of Artur Hawkwing's foreign armies died long ago, but because I believe it does not make it so. The Time of Change, of course, refers to the end of an Age, and the Great Lord - "

Then Verin points out that she believes the Dragon Reborn is one of the three that Moiraine has with her. This could be really good deduction, but it doesn't surprise me when some people call into question Verin's motives.

TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 7 - Blood Calls Blood

"And of course," Verin said calmly, "the man who channels must be one of the three young men traveling with you, Moiraine."

Once again, I don't believe that Verin is Black Ajah - but this moment where Verin tells them what she has "figured" out comes soon after the prologue Darkfriend meeting we are all aware of.

TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: Prologue - In the Shadow

For the third time air solidified into the shape of a young man, this time directly under Ba'alzamon's eye, almost at his feet. A tall fellow, with eyes now gray, now almost blue as the light took them, and dark, reddish hair. Another villager, or farmer. The man who called himself Bors gasped. Yet another thing out of the ordinary, though he wondered why he should expect anything to be ordinary here. A sword swung from the figure's belt, a sword with a bronze heron on the scabbard and another inset into the long, two-handed hilt. A village boy with a heron-mark blade? Impossible! What can it mean? And a boy with yellow eyes. He noticed the Myrddraal looking at the figures, trembling; and unless he misjudged entirely, its trembling was no longer fear, but hatred."

Verin isn't stupid, but she lets her hand play out a bit by following up her revelation with the following statement:

TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 7 - Blood Calls Blood

A hint of satisfaction settled on Verin's face, but no sign that she realized she had hurled a lightning bolt. She only looked as if she had found another piece that fit in a puzzle. "Yes, I thought it must be so. Moiraine could not do this alone, and who better to help than her girlhood friend who used to sneak down with her to snitch sweetcakes." She blinked. "Forgive me, Mother. I should not have said that."

Then Verin indirectly threatens them, and tells them that she is revealing what she knows so they will allow her to study the three ta'veren. Of course to study them she would have to travel with them.

TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 7 - Blood Calls Blood

Verin's eyes widened in surprise. "Yes. Yes, I suppose I should. I hadn't thought of that. But then, if I did, you would be stilled, Moiraine, and you, Mother, and the man gentled. No one has ever recorded the progression in a man who wields the Power. When does the madness come, exactly, and how does it take him? How quickly does it grow? Can he still function with his body rotting around him? For how long? Unless he is gentled, what will happen to the young man, whichever he is, will happen whether or not I am there to put down the answers. If he is watched and guided, we should be able to keep some record with reasonable safety, for a time, at least. And, too, there is The Karaethon Cycle." She calmly returned their startled looks. "I assume, Mother, that he is the Dragon Reborn? I cannot believe you would do this - leave walking free a man who can channel - unless he was the Dragon."

Verin tells them that she started to become suspicious twenty years ago:

TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 7 - Blood Calls Blood

"It is unlikely," Verin began, "that anyone who hasn't studied the old records thoroughly would notice anything except that you were behaving oddly. Forgive me, Mother. It was nearly twenty years ago, with Tar Valon besieged, that I had my first clue, and that was only . . . .

Strangely, Verin isn't allowed to go with the boys, or decides not to push her advantage and make the Amyrlin allow her to travel with Rand. But, instead, Verin gets to spend time with Rand's girlfriend, and the wilder healer that both grew up with and knew Rand. During the first lesson, Verin brings up men going mad when they channel, and Egwene mentions seeing the vagueness leave Verin's eyes as "her gaze flicked from Egwene to Nynaeve as sharp as the Amyrlin's had." Then Egwene thinks to herself:

TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 12 - Woven in the Pattern

Can she know about Rand? It isn't possible. She'd never have let him leave Fal Dara if she even suspected. But she was sure she had not imagined what she saw. "Thank you, Verin Sedai. I will try."

Then Verin and Moiraine, in fact most of the Aes Sedai, ignore Egwene and Nynaeve throughout the trip. And Egwene then finds out that Moiraine and Verin have left.

TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 12 - Woven in the Pattern

"Which ship is Moiraine Sedai's?" "Moiraine isn't on a ship, girl. She's gone, two days gone, and the Amyrlin is in a taking over it." Anaiya grimaced and shook her head, though most of her attention was still on the workers. "First Moiraine vanishes with Lan, then Liandrin right on Moiraine's heels, and then Verin, none of them with so much as a word for anyone. Verin did not even take her Warder; Tomas is chewing nails with worry over her."

1. This is Verin's first mysterious behavior. The other information I brought up was more for development of Verin's mysterious revelation that she knew about the three ta'veren that Moiraine had brought, and she knew one was the Dragon. But, we could have written that off as common curiousity until Verin leaves on Liandrin's and Moiraine's heels without her warder and without the Amyrlin's permission. We know that Liandrin is Black Ajah, and most likely was at the darkfriend meeting, and her leaving is not that suspicious now. And we know Moiraine went with Lan to go search for some information. But why did Verin leave without her warder? She didn't have permission. She is Brown Ajah, dedicated to her books like the two sisters we meet when Moiraine visits them. She could have pushed the Amyrlin to allow her to go with Rand when they originally left, so why wait until this moment and why leave her warder? Even Moiraine took her warder with her. What we know of Verin's trip certainly gave us no reason to believe that her warder wouldn't have been extremely useful. Verin does give us a reason, but it becomes the second mysterious question about Verin.

2. Verin tells Ingtar that Moiraine sent her. This becomes problematic because Moiraine later tells us that she did not send Verin. She also notices, quite quickly, that Rand is missing from their group.

TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 14 - Wolf brother

"Moiraine Sedai sent me, Lord Ingtar," Verin announced with a satisfied smile. "She thought you might need me. Such a gallop I've had. I thought I might not catch you short of Cairhien. You saw that village, of course? Oh, that was very nasty, wasn't it? And that Myrddraal. There were ravens and crows all over the rooftops, but never a one went near it, dead as it was. I had to wave away the Dark One's own weight in flies, though, before I could make out what it was. A shame I did not have time to take it down. I've never had a chance to study a-" Suddenly her eyes narrowed, and the absent manner vanished like smoke. "Where is Rand al'Thor?"

TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 49 - What Was Meant To Be

"I did not send Verin." Moiraine frowned. "She did that on her own. You are of interest to a great many people, Rand. did Fain find you, or you him?"

This is very important. Moiraine was confused because she didn't send Verin, yet Verin says she did. Moiraine was suspicious of Verin's motives from the moment they spoke at the beginning of TGH, and this only confirmed it in her mind that she shouldn't trust Verin too much, which she tells Rand in her letter to him. Now, Jordan writes that Verin looked satisfied after she said that Moiraine sent her. This suggests that Verin was telling a half-truth, Aes Sedai talk, like she was supposed to be there, instead of coming on her own. But, this could just be Verin's curiousity about Rand getting the best of her. We could simply write it off as such, except for the fact that she shows up the morning of Rand's dissappearance.

If you are familiar with those events, Lanfear helps Rand, or activates the stone herself as Rand sleeps. Rand saw a woman in white in a window of the town they traveled through. Lanfear has been trailing Rand I would suggest since they left the castle. The breaking of the seal allowed the Forsaken to get out of the Bore, so they have had weeks to set up plans. Lanfear appears to be interested in all of the ta'veren (which we can gather from her trips to see Mat in Tar Valon, etc.), but her attention is for LTT. If Lanfear is going to be in the Mirror World with Rand, who is going to watch over the other ta'veren for her? Verin's arrival works perfectly. Lanfear wouldn't be aware that Perrin could have followed the scent of Fain, so Verin showing up and taking a leading role is quite convenient. Again, not conclusive, just suspicious IMO. Lanfear hooks up with Rand and forces him to try to channel to get them out as Perrin leads them towards Cairhein on Fain's trail. Truly, Verin could have been compelled to leave her warder and follow or she could have been tricked by disguise or she could have come on her own, but the manner of her departure, and the partial lie she works out to explain her arrival just put her motives in question.

I am going to jump into the third book now where more of the direct connections with Lanfear show up. This third point discusses the whole time that Verin is with Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve in Tar Valon.

3. Siuan Sanche secretly sets up the girls as Black Ajah hunters. The only other person in the White Tower that knew about their job was Verin. Yet, Lanfear knows about it somehow, and shows up at their rooms disguised as Else Grinwell with instructions as to where they can find the possessions of those Black Ajah that left the Tower. To remind you all of this incident, here are some important quotes:

TITLE: Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 25 - Questions

Egwene exchanged wondering looks with Nynaeve and Elayne. "Well, what is it?" Nynaeve demanded. Else arched an eyebrow in amusement. "The belongings left behind by Liandrin and the others were put in the third storeroom on the right from the main stairs in the second basement under the library." She glanced at the papers on the table again and left, neither hurrying nor moving slowly.

TITLE: Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 25 - Questions

Egwene felt as if she could not breathe. We're afraid to trust anybody, and the Amyrlin decides to trust Else Grinwell of all women?

Then Egwene leaves her room following after Else, and finds Lanfear instead as she turns the corner. Lanfear knew, without doubt. This was a secret only known between the Amyrlin, Verin, and the girls. Sure, anyone can say, "Lanfear could have hidden in a corner and spied on them, or eavesdropped" but she would specifically have to have heard that these three were hunting the Black Ajah. The more logical conclusion is that Lanfear used Verin. I say logical because Jordan actually does some work to make that connection, whereas, he never mentions Lanfear using the one power to divine it on her own. We know that Lanfear is using the disguise of a novice to walk the halls of the Tower. She could have various disguises but Jordan gives us that one to chew on. Also, Lanfear is typically dressed in white. These two facts leave us with a question when Egwene sees a flash of white as she turns the corner to Verin's rooms.

TITLE: Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 21 - A World of Dreams

Verin had her quarters above the library, in corridors used only by a few other Brown sisters. There was a dusty air to the halls there, as if the women who lived along them were too busy with other things to bother having the servants clean very often, and the passages took odd turns and twists, sometimes dipping or rising unexpectedly. The tapestries were few, their colorful weavings dulled, apparently cleaned as seldom as everything else here. Many of the lamps were unlit, plunging much of the hall into gloom. Egwene thought she had it to herself, except for a flash of white ahead, perhaps a novice or a servant scurrying about some task. Her shoes, clicking on bare black and white floor tiles, made echoes. It was not a comforting place for one thinking of the Black Ajah.

First of all, notice the location of Verin's rooms. They are above the library, and Lanfear sent the girls to find the belongings of Liandrin and the others in the second basement under the Library. Second, Egwene connects the flash of white she sees with a person, either a novice or servant. This occurs right before the famous scene where Verin gives Egwene the ring. The reason why this scene is an important piece to the puzzle is that first, it is against Tower law to give a novice a ter'angreal, second, Verin does not inform the Amyrlin that she is going to give Egwene this dream ring, third, Egwene provides very little instruction as to its use and its dangers, fourth, she doesn't even write any instructions for Egwene as to how to use the ring or T'A'R which is something she could easily have done from what the last Dreamer wrote, and fifth, Lanfear disguised as Sylvie meets Egwene in T'A'R the first night it is used. This dream ter'angreal leads the girls to the Black Ajah in Tear. This dream ter'angreal allows Lanfear to spy on the girls and learn of their plans. This is one of the few times where Lanfear could have shown up as the Amyrlin herself and it wouldn't have mattered. Verin was supposedly the only Aes Sedai who knew of the existence of the ring. So why would Verin have done this? Complusion is a good possibility. Verin's reasons could have to do with some master plan...although, Egwene's abilities are just showing up, so why she would care about it is beyond me because it doesn't benefit Verin in anyway that Egwene has this ring.

Some have pointed out that Verin could have some mysterious reason for giving the ter'angreal to Egwene that doesn't have to do with Lanfear. And that Else sees the ring that Egwene has while visiting their rooms, which is how she could have been waiting for Egwene. But I personally believe that the Else point is stretching it. That would be assuming that Lanfear knows all ter'angreal on site, and this was a ter'angreal that wasn't in the Tower's lists. The idea that Lanfear was responsible for Verin giving Egwene the ring, and that she noticed that Egwene had taken the ring from Verin seems more likely to me.

The action of the books change from the Tower out into other cities. Mesanna moves into the Tower and Lanfear visits Rand in Tear and follows him into the Waste. Whether RJ will ever tell us if Lanfear compelled Verin or if Verin willingly served, or if Verin was tricked by disguises is unknown, but I think Verin exhibits some strange behavior that seems to favor the Forsaken, specifically Lanfear.

A final addition to the Tower scenes is Verin's eratic behavior in the kitchen. Here is the scene:

TITLE: Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 27 - Tel'aran'rhiod

Verin had come into the kitchens after the midday meal, blinking as if she were not sure why she was there. When she saw Egwene and the other two on their knees among the cauldrons and kettles, she looked surprised for a moment, then walked over and asked, loud enough for anyone to hear, "Have you found anything?"

TITLE: Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 27 - Tel'aran'rhiod

Verin nodded as if that were the answer she had been seeking. "Well, keep looking." She peered around the kitchen again, frowning as though puzzled to find herself there, and left.

TITLE: Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 27 - Tel'aran'rhiod

Hanging her dress in the wardrobe, Egwene told herself once again that even Verin's slip could have been perfectly ordinary; the Brown sister was often absentminded. If it was a slip. Sitting on the edge of her bed, she pulled up her shift and began rolling down her stockings. She was almost beginning to dislike white as much as she did gray.

We all know that Verin's absentmindedness is a lie, or a false face she puts on. Would someone that has been compelled various times begin to exhibit eratic behavior like this? I think it is a possibility. There is no reason for her to speak so loudly or bring suspicion on the girls. Even Egwene begins to suspect her motives for doing that.

Some parting quotes:

"Elayne hesitated, then gave her head a small shake. Egwene was quicker and more vigorous with hers; slip of the mind or not, Verin had left out too much to be trusted."

"Trust no woman fully who is now Aes Sedai. I do not speak simply of the Black Ajah, though you must always be watchful for them. Be as suspicious of Verin as you are of Alviarin. We have made the world dance as we sang for three thousand years. That is a difficult habit to break, as I have learned while dancing to your song. You must dance free, and even the best intentioned of my sisters may well try to guide your steps as I once did."

Verin says, "There are many . . . designs in the White Tower. Not all are malignant, by far, but sometimes it is difficult to say until it is too late. And even the most benevolent often allow for a few threads snapped in the weaving, a few reeds broken and discarded in making a basket. A ta'veren would make a useful reed in any number, of possible plans." Just as suddenly she was looking a little confused by the bustle around her, more at home in a book or her own thouglits than in the real world. "Oh, my. Master al'Seen is not wasting any time, is he? I'll just see if he can spare someone to fetch our horses. Faile shivered as the Brown sister moved away. "Sometimes Aes Sedai make me . . . uneasy," she murmured."

Other Miscellaneous Behavior:

- Verin speaks with a known Darkfriend Lord the night before he is ripped apart by a gholam.

- Verin knows a great deal about T'A'R, the domain of one mistress we all know very well.

- Verin tells Rand that he has been “transported” by Portal Stone more recently than she had. By whom was she transported?

- Verin happens to know the sign for the Portal Stone to get Rand to Toman Head...previously Rand has another run in with a Portal Stone and Lanfear is there to bail him out...wonder where Verin learned that little piece of information...funny, when asked about how she knew she said "The Brown Ajah knows many things", very Aes Sedai "I'm hiding something" talk.

- Because Verin gave Egwene the ring Lanfear, and many other Forsaken have been able to track their movements through the rest of the books.

- Lanfear talks to Mat about their being "other alternatives" than choosing the Light or the DO. Verin later speaks to Perrin about how many Aes Sedai have plans with good intentions but that many of these plans are malignant...maybe Verin has a few malignant plans that lead to some end she sees as good. Is she beyond making the deal with a devil to get there?

Other Theory Resources:

Board Discussion 1

Board Discussion 2



Board Discussion 3
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Comments

1

Wolfblade: 2003-05-14

I think you may have come across something. I also don't believe that Verin is part of the Black Ajah. But I don't think Verin is under complusion. What I do think is that Verin is an Aes Sedai that follows Lanfear willing.

My proof as is follows. Since I haven't read the books numerous times I will try to pull this from memory, please correct me. The reason that I believe that Verin is not under complusion is because once Lanfear died complusion would have been taken off and Verin would stop her eratic behavior. Also I believe it was Verin who attacked a golden hair woman (who many believe to be Moiraine)in the forest in Winter's Heart with the OP

2

Tamyrlin: 2003-05-14

Well, I am not sure if the erratic behvavior should stop, because compulsion creates permanent "damage". However, the Verin in the later half of the books acts differently than the Verin we come to know in the first three.

3

rundoctoritsthegatherer: 2003-05-15

I think it is an interesting theory, and while I don't necessarily agree with a Lanfear connection, there is definitely more to Verin than meets the eye.

If I could play Devil's Avocado for a minute.... 2 points:

1. Surely Verin calling the DO "Great Lord" was merely her quoting the writings she had just translated from Fain's cell wall. That is how I've always taken it.

2. You point out that Verin tells Rand he has been transported by a Portal Stone more recently than she has (TGH Ch37 "What might be" pg442) . What you are missing/forgetting is that when Rand questions Verin about this, she tells him she has never used one, which is why his use is more recent than hers. This could be another lie or twist of words I guess ("used" and "transported by" not necessarily being the same thing). While there are several examples (of which you have mentioned many) of Verin acting or answering suspiciously, I've always taken this one straight up front. This could make me look a bit foolish, but it wouldn't be the first time.

4

cow defender: 2003-05-15

I don't think that 'used' and 'transported' mean quite the same thing. She could have never 'used' a portal stone while still being transported about by one if Lanfear was the one who channelled in it.

5

Janstince: 2003-05-21

One problem, however. We DO get a Verin POV in the opening of aCoS. She's doing, something, something kind of like compulsion, on the sisters who Rand captured at Dumai's Wells. These sisters later all swear to Rand. It's an incomplete, hasty, and poorly "stitched" compulsion weave, but there you have it. However, she does have the word-mincing tone of an Aes Sedai to her thoughts as she does it, something like: "This is a perfectly harmless weave." Of course, it wouldn't be the weave that killed her.- Now, I'm just taking that out of memory, but that's the gist as far as i know. Verin is not performing a weave on a person that can kill, but the eventual rebellion of the mind or whatever against the weave will kill the person. However, she is not lying, but barely. To me, this suggests that she has not broken any of the Three Oaths, which means that she is not BA.

As for serving Lanfear, there are several problems with this theory. First of all, would Lanfear let a full AS, one that cannot lie, roam around, knowing full well that at least one of the Forsaken is on the Tower grounds? Not only that, but would'nt she kill Verin before she left, so nobody would know what was going on? She could even blame it on the BA by that time. I don't think Lanfear is one to leave loose ends like that lying around for anyone to see.

One more point PRO your theory is this: Verin remarks in TGH, i don't wanna look up the chapter (yeah, i'm lazy), that, unfortunately, Dark Prophecies have as much a tendency to be fulfilled as the others. A strange remark. How many dark prophecies has she known of? I thought I read around then that all Trollocs write are taunts, insults, and rude suggestions. Also, there are the pleas we hear so much about at Shadar Logoth, but that's gone now. The point is, when the hell were there enough Dark Prophecies laying around, already fulfilled or soon to be, for Verin to study them and say "Hey, these Myrddraal aren't just teasing us, they are telling us what's gonna happen." So that's another oddity in the stack, your favor.

I still don't think Lanfear would let Verin run around with the knowledge of her she would supposedly have, though. I think Lanfear would use her to give Egwene the ter'angreal, to find out what's going on inside the Tower, and then dispose of her.

6

Korell: 2003-05-21

I am on the Fence on this one it certainly would explain ALOT of Verins behavior i am with the Tamyrlin on one thing for sure though i dont belive that Verin is BA but i have heard a few ideas thrown around that she might not be bound with the lie oath i think that is possible...now as for Verin working for lanfear there do seem to be some certain instances one thing i would like to say is that for a Brown Verin does not miss a beat and she seems to know alot if her and Lanfear do have a connection maybe Lanfear pormised her loads of info on the past in exchange for some deeds ones that would not exaclty go out of line but not exactly ethical either just a though definitely a interesting idea though

7

silverwolf: 2003-06-14

I think that Verin was manipulated by Lanfear, but not willingly working with her. Verin has simply done too much "for the Light" for me to believe that she is a darkfriend, but some of her behavior is still suspicious (Compulsion, anyone?).

8

Yoshi: 2003-08-17

I would like to add another thing to this. When Lanfear aka Selene visits Mat in The White Tower, it seems that Lanfear knows that Mat blew the Horn of Valere and that it is in The White Tower. It is not clearly said, but there are hints:

TITLE: Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 20 - Visitations

"These... Aes Sedai mean to use you, but you will like it, in the main, I think. And accept it. There is no need to convince you to seek out glory.”

“Use me?” The memory returned of him thinking that, but about Rand, that the Aes Sedai meant to use Rand, not him. They've no bloody use for me. Light, they can't have! “What do you mean. I'm no one important. I am no use to anyone but myself. What kind of glory?”

“I knew that would pull you. You, above all."

Her smile made his head spin. He scrubbed a hand through his hair. The blanket slipped, and he caught it hastily before it could fall. “Now listen, they are not interested in me.” What about me sounding the Horn? “I am just a farmer.” (...) Selene shook her head as if she had heard his thoughts. “You are more important than you yet know. Certainly more important than these so-called Aes Sedai know. You can have glory, if you know enough not to trust them.” (...) “These Aes Sedai do not even realize how important you are, and he will try to dissuade or kill you, but I can give you what you desire.”

“He?” said Mat sharply. Kill me? Light, it is Rand they were after, not me. How does she know about the dagger? I suppose the whole Tower knows. “Who wants to kill me?”

Selene's mouth thigtened as if he had said too much. “You know what you want, Mat, and I know it every bit as well as you. You must choose who you will trust to gain it for you. I admit I will use you. These Aes Sedai would never do that. I will lead you to wealth and glory.. They will keep you tied to a leash until you die”

The first thing to note is that Lanfear speaks about ‘glory', just like when she spoke to Rand in TGH regarding to blowing the Horn. Lanfear takes it as granted that Mat will gain glory, he only has to choose who to gain it for him. Which glory does Lanfear mean? This must be the glory as Hornblower. She also states that the Aes Sedai are going to use him. Two pages later the Amyrlin Seat enters Mat's room and tells him she's gonna use him as Hornblower. Coincidence? And why is ‘until you die' added? Is this nothing special or does this mean that they only have a use for Mat when he is alive, since he is tied to the Horn? Second thing is that when Mat thinks about him sounding the Horn, it is almost immediately followed by ‘Selene shook her head as if she had heard his thoughts.' Does Lanfear indeed know what Mat is thinking about? In short, the whole passage seems to be hinting about Lanfear knowing of Mat and the Horn. And the only persons who know about the Horn and Mat are Siuan Sanche, Rand, Perrin, the girls, Moiraine and, indeed, Verin again. Even Ba'alzamon doesn't know that Mat sounded the Horn and not Rand (see TGH). So if Lanfear indeed knows about Mat and the Horn, it is very likely that Verin informed her.

And the last thing is Mat's own question: how does she know about the dagger? Indeed the Aes Sedai who healed Mat know about it, but wouldn't they keep it a secret from others that a Shadar Logoth-infested object is in the Tower? It would cause a lot of commotion when it would be widely known. It isn't likely that the whole towers knows, so the source for Lanfear's information must be one of the Aes Sedai included in the Healing, which, indeed, involves Verin.

9

Callandor: 2003-08-18

That's debatable. Lanfear could be talking about Mat's future as ta'veren and how the Aes Sedai don't really care that much about Mat's ta'vereness compared to Rand's. Also as you said, Lanfear says the Aes Sedai don't realize how useful he is, but they know about the Horn, soon after Siuan talks to Mat about being the Hornsounder.

10

a dragonburned fool: 2003-11-11

What about a possibility Verin being a lonely Black-Ajah-hunter? All BA-hunters we know don't thrust anybody, act as if they are the last hope of the Tower and the Light, including doing lot of forbidden things... Is Verin's behaviour more suspicious as that of Moiraine (we know Moiraine closer, that's because she's not so suspicious)? Verin is using a novice against the Tower law, but Siuan is doing the same; maybe Verin's motives are the same. Siuan and Verin are in one team, they share both the knowledge about the DR and Liandrin's BA scandal, Siuan doesn't thrust Verin and why Verin to thrust Siuan. If Verin is BA-hunter, she's a veteran BA-hunter (maybe 70 years, as her mentioned "plan"; and she's too deep in a habit to thrust nobody. Maybe the last error she made (in her PoV while she's compelling the green sister in the aiel tent) is when she decided to become a BA-hunter. Tracing suspicious sisters could lead the Shadows attention to her. And in this way I think it could begin so complicated a game, that all that suspicious facts could happen without compelling Verin.

I'm new at Theoryland, if this is long-ago-discussed argument, put me in the place I deserve, but...

11

Freddy79: 2004-03-04

I believe Verin is thinking that Moiraine sent her because the reason Verin left in such a hurry is that Moiraine left before her. So in a way you could say that Moiraine's actions sent her, so she could say that Moiraine sent her without lying.

12

Elan Morin Tedronai 21: 2004-03-06

Wolfblade, it was actually Alivia, the former Seanchan damane who attacked Cyndane at the end of Winters Heart.

13

Aiel Finn: 2004-10-19

If Verin is a solo BA-hunter, she would have had plenty of practice in bending the truth oath. This would explain the "Morianne(sp) sent me" and her self rationalization in the tent scene. Also, if she's been hunting BA for 70 years, she would have reason to try to learn some sort of compulsion so she could question people. It's really hard to find people who can just lie to you.

14

fistandantilus: 2004-10-19

What Verin leaves out of "Moiraine sent me" is where and when and for what purpose Moiraine sent her anywhere. Moiraine could have sent her for a teapot 20 years ago in the White Tower, and that statement could be true until the end of time.

15

Ashaman Samuel: 2005-04-06

But this theory, while very pretty, has a hole, albeit a small one. Lanfear was shocked at the appearance of the ring. If she had been using it to track Egwene, would she not know what it looked like?

16

Ashaman Samuel: 2005-04-06

but in retrospect what if Verin only told Lanfear that she had given Egwene a powerful dream ter'angreal, ( I personally believe the ring is the Ring of Tamrylin) and when Lanfear saw what she knew as the Ring of Tamrylin (she would be familiar with it considering her ex-lover wore it until it meant nothing), would it not be natural for her first reaction to be shock at the artifact's survival/appearance?

17

clocklotion: 2005-05-23

Tamyrlin, after reading this you have almost thoroughly convinced me that Verin is Black Ajah or at the very least connected to the Dark in some significant way.

However I am a little confused with your connection theory. Are you saying that Verin IS Lanfear just under guise? If so, I don't know if I can believe that, unless RJ plans to bring up "split-forms" or something akin to "mirror images" or something. Because in the Great Hunt, Selene (Lanfear) physically accompanies Rand, Loial and Hurin in the 'otherworld' whilst Verin physically accompanies Ingtar, Mat, Perrin and the other gang in the 'real world'. Both travels seemingly occur at the same time.

What really strikes me is Verin's slip-of-tongue? in calling the Dark One the "Great Lord" as you pointed out but more importantly your highlighting of the fact that in the Great Hunt, when Verin catches up with Ingtar and the gang she says that Moiraine sent her. Later, Moiraine says she did not send her. This is a direct violation of the Three Oaths. Verin flat out lied. I don't see how that could be seen as a "half-truth" or "Aes Sedai talk". Either Moiraine sent her or she didn't, I don't see a middle-ground or gray area there.. So that means that she has been freed from her former Oaths and has maybe taken on the new ones from the Dark?

18

Tamyrlin: 2005-05-23

Clocklotion: I am not saying that Verin is Lanfear. Instead, I am of the opinion that Lanfear used Verin, either through compulsion, or Verin allowed herself to willingly be used, in other words, made a deal, for information. If Jordan never wanted there to be a connection, he made a huge amount of coincedental connections for nothing.

19

Merk: 2005-05-23

clocklotion, the reference to the Great Lord has already been explained. She was directly quoting the prophecy written on the cell wall. Translating the references, basically. This means this, this means that, and the Great Lord means... she never finishes the thought out loud, but she would have said "the Great Lord means the Dark One." I think this is pretty clear. Besides, even if she were BA or a minion of the Shadow somehow, she wouldn't accidentally say "Great Lord." That would be like her saying something about "the Chosen. Whoops! I mean, er, the Forsaken."

"Moiraine sent me" could be a slippery Aes Sedai statement. Like others have said, it could mean Moiraine's actions were the cause of Verin coming, even if she didn't tell her to go. Or it could be, like someone said, "Moiraine sent me"....to get a pot of tea going 20 years ago. It may not be an outright lie, so the question is why she might try to fudge such an answer. Perhaps for very dark reasons, perhaps just for her own reasons.

Again, I don't think she would have said that as a straight-out lie. An Aes Sedai freed from the Three Oaths can't lie willy-nilly. I think they would have to think it through very carefully before they did so, because being caught in a straight-out lie is the easiest way to sniff out a BA. I don't think she would have lied like that about something it is likely they will check with Moiraine the next time tney see her (unless she expected Moiraine to not be around to confirm/deny the statement - dum dum duh!).

Overall, a very interesting theory. I think we can all agree that something is going on with Verin. What it is remains to be seen.

20

Anubis: 2005-05-24

You make a strong point, I can agree with the connection theory, but Im left wondering about the nature of the connection. It doesnt seem right that Verin might be working for Lanfear. Maybe the two struck a deal? But again that doesnt seem right. Verin might but I find it hard to see Lanfear going along with it. I hope time will tell.

21

terez: 2005-06-27

As for the "Moiraine sent me" lie, why hasn't anyone brought up the possibility that Lanfear might have impersonated Moiraine as she impersonated Else, with an inverted Mirror of Mists? That seems to me to be the most likely explanation.

22

terez: 2005-06-28

I just read the board discussions and saw that someone has indeed brought up the possibility that Lanfear posed as Moiraine to "send" Verin. Then someone made an unfortunate assumption that the person who brought up the idea was referring somehow to the time in the Tower in tDR, and the idea was buried in a frighteningly broken circle of logic at that point, and forgotten.

Scenario: Just as Moiraine is secretly and hurriedly preparing to leave Fal Dara, Lanfear appears to Verin as Moiraine, uses a bit of compulsion on her to send her after Rand with instructions to inform everyone that Moiraine sent her (probably in order to either alleviate suspicion concerning Verin's presence, or to direct suspicion on Verin concerning the Portal Stones, or to direct all suspicion in Moiraine's direction) and such use of Compulsion would certainly explain the prompt announcement, and Verin's satisfaction in delivering it. Victims of Compulsion always are very eager to carry out their instructions. Lanfear might also have Compelled Verin to leave behind her Warder. I can't think of any other reason Verin would have left him behind, but then again I also can't think of any reason Lanfear would want him left behind.

23

BKVMC: 2007-09-10

I tend to forget Verin is Brown ajah half the time. at times she acts like a green other times a blue, But she is Brown, thats why i think she left Tomas in fal dara for a reason and that he would not Betray her by telling thats why he was acting worried. There was information there that she wanted to study and she also needs to be with the DR and the other 2 taveren so she split her resources. I would be Shocked if tomas wasnt a genius in his own right i cant see verin choosing a warder just for a body guard there has to be more to him than a sword for him to have been valuable enough to bond him.

Now as to whether Lanfear compelled her , i dont think so but i could see her making a deal with the "Devil " so to speak a deal that would involve her "70" year plan.

This should probably go under another theory about verin but i will add it here since im tired Lol regarding the 70 year plan.

Cadsuane and Verin are Both from Far madding Both are "Older" aes sedai although Cadsuane is older Both were apparantly on a "Mission" before the aiel war as hinted on Cadsuanes part when she said she was "close to rooting out the BA before that nasty business in the tower happened" so obviously Cadsuane was a BA hunter i think Verin also was brought in as a BA hunter But against what she would have preferred for herself it makes sense to me that whatever trouble she got into in Far Madding Cadsuane COULD have been involved in getting her out and exacted a price.

Now we know Cadsuane went into a retirement of sorts and yet it appears to me that somehow she is "appraised" by someone of major events in the world even in her isolation in Ghealdean i DONT believe her involvement with Logain was happenstance of being in the right place at the right time. anyway im getting off in to many different directions back to verin.

I think Cadsuane went into seclusion so deep that 99 percent of the aes sedai thought she was dead was because she thinks she might have been "exposed" to the BA so she had to back off her hunt leaving the main thrust of the hunt and the need to stay Deeply hidden to Verin. Verin didnt force herself to learn weaves for compulsion just to learn it she learned it to apply to something and that something IMO was the hunt for the BA. Quoting from above:

"Verin says, "There are many . . . designs in the White Tower."

That message sounds so much like wheels spinning in her head its insane!

Now i know Verin contemplated poisoning Cadsuane because she wasnt sure of her motives i in NO way think that was becuase she thought Cadsuane was BA i DO think it was because she could see Cadsuane attempting to interfere with Rand. and to Verin i think her 70 year plan and the DR living to reach TG are intricatly intertwined.

24

Sampson: 2007-09-20

Selene / Lanfear knew about the SL Dagger while she was in the portal world with Rand. Rand told her about the dagger, what it was and why it was important. Lanfear is smart enough to put 2 & 2 together.

Verin, is probably the best female character. I do not think she is BA. I do not think she lied when she said Moraine sent her. I think she is smart enough and has studied the 3 oaths long enough to not only convince herself what the truth is, but also word her phrases well enough to not break the “will not tell a lie” oath.

Verin might have been subjected to a kind of compulsion. Her erratic behavior can explain the use of compulsion. Especially since she has used the absentminded type of behavior through out her career to be overlooked and not paid attention to. Everybody took her erratic behavior as Verin being a brown. She is too bad ass not to take advantage of every opportunity to work from the shadows; she is the lights version of Moggy.

I do not believe that her 70 year plan has anything to do with the BA. I think she has came across the BA, and will do what she can to eliminate them, as long as it doesn’t take her away from her goal. I do not know what her 70 year plan is, or if we will ever know. But unless she blatantly stands up and states she is a dark friend and tries to kill Rand, Mat or Avi. Then she is all good with me. She can even kill Perrin, Fail, Elayne, Nynaeve, & Egwene and I will say she was on the side of the light.