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erin is not Evil!

by Great Lord of the Dark: 2003-12-12 | 5.95 out of 10 (19 votes)

Previous Categories: Verin - Motivations and Plans

This is to supplement the debate for my new faction:

Verin is not Evil. She is not a darkfriend. She is not in cahoots with any Forsaken.

Verin has done nothing to endanger Rand at any time. She has in fact gotten sworn enemies to turn to his side through her weak compulsion. She wants him to reach the Last Battle. And win. This has been her objective for a long time.

Her last major mistake 70 years ago was trusting someone she shouldn't have. So far she has risked all to see what Moiraine and Siuan were up to in Book 5, given Egwene help in Book 3, Looked for other trustworthy channelers in Book 4, subtly taken over the Rebel embassy to Rand in Book 6, turned Elaida's 'escort' into Rand's willing servants, and debated whether Cadsuane was dangerous enough to need poison slipped in her tea. None of that is bad for Rand. It's all to his favour.

Verin trusts no one with her self-appointed mission, to help Rand defeat the Dark One in the Last Battle. Funnily, Siuan, Moiraine, Alanna, and Cadsuane have all exhibited more or less the same feeling. Just that Verin has done it in far more secrecy than the others.

Verin is not Evil, Theorylanders. She just isn't.
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Comments

1

Tamyrlin: 2003-12-18

(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
Interesting theory, with lots of proof from the books. But one thing is confusing: if Verin trust nobody, why does she trust Egwene with her Corianin Nedeal notes and ter'angreal?

2

Great Lord of the Dark: 2003-12-18

Ha Ha! So Easy! Verin trusts all Two Rivers people because if there had been Darkfriends in the Two Rivers, Rand would have been outed years earlier. Because Verin knows it took Fain to track Rand down, no one from the Two Rivers was helping him. Therefore there are no Darkfriends in the Two Rivers, especially from Emond's Field. If anyone can be trusted, it's Nynaeve and Egwene. Siuan knew this too, which is the reason she states for sending them after Black Ajah. This is also why Verin gathers up every channeler she can find in the Two Rivers; she wants to make a group of Aes Sedai that Rand can use with no fear of Black Ajah infiltration.

Verin gives the only dream ter'angreal the Black Ajah knows nothing about to Egwene because she can use it to level the playing field, and she can be trusted to use it to Rand's benefit.

Why not give Egwene the notes? Verin is stubbornly persistent in learning as much as she can. If she held back from exploring tel'aran'rhiod, it was either because it was too dangerous, because she was scared of being found out and therefore losing the advantage the ter'angreal gives, or the notes themselves were incorrect, misleading, or purposely wrong to keep anyone from following in Corianin's steps. If Verin had cause to doubt a part of what the notes say, then giving them to Egwene could put her in greater danger than not giving them to her at all.

3

natas: 2003-12-18

The notes and ter'angrel was given to Egwene early in the books. I can't imagine that Verin could have forsaw where Egwene would be now. Unless she visited the finns, which I doubt. At the time, it could have been simply that Verin didn't see it as a life threatening thing to Rand. Also, Egwene was from his home town and still close to Rand, as she saw it then.

The one thing that bothers me about your theory is that Verin lied to Rand about Morianne sending her; I believe in the Great Hunt. This implies that Verin isn't bound by an Oath Rod. Considering that Egwene is now steadfast on taking the three oaths because of Siuan telling her that is what makes an Aes Sedai an Aes Sedai, and thus trustworthy, it's possible that Verin has to get Rand to Shayol Gul, then turn on him.

Can't argue with the rest of your theory. Nice job.

4

wilder: 2003-12-19

Actually, Verin only gave Egwene the ring, and decided not to give her the notes, which fits in with her not trusting anyone else fully.

Verin knew when she gave Egwene the ring that the girls were being sent to hunt the Black Ajah, and that the BA had taken ter'angreal that were probably related to T'A'R , since they were last studied by Corianin Nedal. Perhaps she gave Egwene the ring and the quick lesson on T'A'R because she suspected that the girls would need to use T'A'R while hunting the BA, but she couldn't bring herself to trust them enough to give them Corianin's notes as well.

5

brigitta: 2003-12-19

for the most part I agree. All this openness is a good way to do what you really want to do with everyone thinking that it's just a cover for something else. This applies for all, who have dealt with AS. as to why she gave Egwene the Ter'angreal, she couldn't use it herself and probably didn't want to experiment. all AS know what might happen if a Ter'angreal were to be used in a wrong way...

6

Rand alThor15: 2003-12-19

good question "Frenzy for Tamyrlin"... i personnally think Verin started liking Egwene the second they met, she finds her very interesting, i think she said it once..you know, her being a dreamer and a very powerful Aes Sedai.

7

Korell: 2003-12-19

I love this idea i have never thought of Verin as a BA and as for the Tams question about trusting egwene

there are many reasons why this could be but even those who trust none have to take a chance every now and then not to mention i think she did it know that Egwene had the ability and that she would at a later date try to exploit it perhaps to find out the plans of the forsaken? I think she will use any means to complete her task she is a master manipulator and people suspect far too little i think she does and has a hand in more then even we know. anyway i love this theory

Verin is Not Evil

8

Aelfinn: 2003-12-19

In regards to trust, people do weird things; trusting the most untrustworthy people, and vice versa. I wouldn't say that being human (for an Aes Sedai) makes someone evil.

And GLotD, for once I agree with you; Verin isn't evil. (Enjoy this, 'cause it's probably the only time!)

9

Great Lord of the Dark: 2003-12-20

Natas, Moiraine herself made a comment in Book 2 that Egwene could one day be Amyrlin. That Verin could also see that Egwene's Power and initiative would get her far is highly probable. No need for Finns, foretellings to guess that.

Verin's 'lie' is just a bending of the truth. After she says 'Moiraine sent me' she gives a self-satisfied nod, as though thinking to herself 'Wow, that was a great bending of the Oath to speak no untrue word. Way to go Verin!' Had she not been bound by the oaths, she would not have had that reaction.

10

Rand alThor15: 2003-12-20

another which shows Verin isn't "Evil" but quite the contrary :

in book 4 the shadow rising she is building Perrin, turning him into a hell of a good commander, she would only do that to assure that most, if not all, his battles are won and for him to gather a hell of an army together with Mat and the Aiel and lead them to the Last Battle ----> she is preparing our three heroes for the last battle and nothing but.

11

Callandor: 2003-12-21

**Natas, Moiraine herself made a comment in Book 2 that Egwene could one day be Amyrlin.**

Actually, that's in the first book :).

12

natas: 2003-12-22

GLotD, I don't necessarily disagree that Verin is not evil. She has proven herself time and again helping Rand. It's just that I don't believe she is bound by an oath rod.

silverwolf stated, under the topic "Is Verin Black Ajah?",

"Something I haven't heard anyone mention is that Verin appearently lied in TGH. When she catches up to Ingtar's group, she tells them "Moiraine Sedai sent me." At the end of TGH, when Moiraine is talking to Rand, Moiraine says "I did not send Verin." We know that Moiraine is not BA, so the most obvious reason for the discrepency is that Verin lied (Note: during an interview, RJ said that the discrepency was not a mistake.)"

In the theory, other possiblities are mentioned which would discredit that Verin lied. Some are possible, but I still believe that Verin lied to Rand.

The Great Hunt, page 231, paperback:

"'That's one of the Aes Sedai,' Mat said disappointedly. 'I recognize her. Verin.' 'Verin Sedai,' Ingtar said sharply, then bowed to her from his saddle.

'Moiraine Sedai sent me, Lord Ingtar,' Verin announced with a satisfied smile. 'She thought you might need me. . ."

TGH, page 675, paperback:

"'What you could. You sent Verin to shepherd me, but I'm no sheep, Moiraine. You said I could go where I wanted, and I mean to go where you are not.'

'I did not send Verin.' Moiraine frowned. 'She did that on her own. You are of interest to a great many people, Rand. Did Fain find you, or you him?'

The sudden change of topic took him by surprise. 'Fain? No. A fine hero I make. . . '"

I don't believe that Verin is bound by an oath rod, and I agree that Verin is not Evil. She's turning out to be a very large question mark in the books.

13

Arien Sedai: 2003-12-23

[i]'Moiraine Sedai sent me, Lord Ingtar.' [/i]

She doesn't specify when, where or what Moiraine sent her to do. It could be that Moiraine sent her to get a book from the Tower library ten years ago.

[i]'She thought you might need me. . .'[/i]

This could mean that Moiraine thought that Rand needed an Aes Sedai with him, which she almost certainly did, and the only Aes Sedai who (apart from Moiraine and Siuan) knows who he is and how to help him is Verin.

14

free will: 2004-01-01

Verin can lie. Before Rand enters Falme she tells him that the Seanchan can detect a male channeling, but in the LoC Prologue we get a POV from the female Forsaken that there is never any warning when a male channels.

I know it's not kosher, but the Wheel of Time RPG published by Wizards is officially sanctioned by RJ and it lists game statistics for the oath rod, and in those statistics the oath can be bent by a strong enough force of will. Maybe bending the oath without breaking it is a skill Verin picked up

15

Zaela Sedai: 2004-01-01

*Verin can lie*

That's not necessarily true, she said one MIGHT feel saidin, not that they would. She was saying this to prevent Rand from channelling, and it could mean many things such as feeling what he channels etc. Using might makes it easy to get around lieing. She doesn't know if they have ter'angreals to detect male

channelers, but being from Far Madding she knows such things exist. Therefore she was not lying, the Senchan very well may have been able to detect saidin.

TITLE: Great Hunt,CHAPTER: 44 - Five Will Ride Forth

"What about you?" Rand asked. Verin shook her head. "You forget the damane." Her mouth twisted around the word in distaste. "The only way I could help you would be if I channeled the Power, and that would be no help at all if I brought those down on you. Even if they were not close enough to see, one might well feel a woman - or a man, for that matter - channeling, if care was not taken to keep the Power channeled small." She did not look at Rand;

16

Korell: 2004-01-02

free will

actually i cant remember where but i thought i read somthing about a woman being able to detect a man chanalling by using the OP im not sure where it was at but i am almost positive that it is in there somwhere

17

Unicorn: 2004-01-09

First I agree Verin Is Not Evil. Second this time I actually joined I have read a lot of theorizing(mostly on Verin), and I believe that in this my sixth read of the series I have discovered what I missed before, I have only been a casual reader of theories but for a long time and I have not seen this quote out there yet, if it has been shredded already I apologize for wasting your time. So here goes, in TGH beginning of chapter 7(paperback page 103, bottom). The then Amyrlin Siuan, Moiraine and Verin, having just contained the taint of the Shadar Logoth dagger within Mat, are talking about the danger the dagger is posing to the world. Moiraine says “Then we must find the dagger, Sister. Agelmar is sending men to hunt those who took the Horn and slew his oathmen, the same who took the dagger. If one is found the other will be.” The operative word here being “we”[must find the dagger, Sister], this should be enough of a loop hole for a sly old dog like Verin to use as a pretense for “blaming” her presence on Moiraine, even though I don't believe she was there for the dagger. If that was her objective she would have left earlier. Whether conscious of this, or not, Moiraine can deny sending Verin to “shepherd Rand “ or whatever the term used was.

On another whim I don't actually have anything to say about, as to why Verin gave the T'A'R access ring to Egwene, but my gut(and nothing else) tells me that Corianin Nedeal was BA, Don't know why I certainly have not read any thing to prove it.

I have a long time ago read theories about Verin being Artur Hawkwing's granddaughter, who stepped (accidently) forward in time through the portalstones,anybody know what happened to that idea?

18

IkilledAsmodean: 2004-01-09

Anyone notice that Verin lied to the Far Madding council about her name? Moraine did the same thing in her travels, so unless they changed names at some point in their live,s both were capable of lying.

19

Elder Haman: 2004-01-09

I read that theory too, but I always thought it was more likely that she's Corianin Nedeal- since Egwene can't remember ever finding a death date for her.

20

dragonsceptor: 2004-01-09

most of the reasons I have seen given for Verin not being evil centers around her being wholly dedicated to helping Rand reach TG. I don't think this tells us anything because we still do not know what her motivation for this is. Even the DO wants Rand to get to TG (I don't think anyone would agrue that he has Rand's good at heart and is not evil). However, Verin has shown a willingness to do things dispicable in the eyes of AS. Namely compulsion. The other AS whose thoughts we are able to see are all repulsed by the idea of compulsion. Yet Verin uses it. I am reminded of the Bible quote, "By their fruits ye shall know them." I don't think Verin's fruits have have shown us enough to know anything other than she wants Rand to get to TG and is willing to do anything to make sure this happens.

21

Unicorn: 2004-01-10

If Elder Hamann is right and Verin is Coreanin, I'm in trouble because I think one is Good and the other Evil.

Besides in my "mind-movie" Verin has my grandmothers face, she is not Evil, not even if RJ himself says so I will not believe it :-)

To IkilledAsmodean, I am vey certain the what Verin says in Far is "you may call me" or "here I am known as" and I don't recall the name exactly Edwina or something i think. As to Moiraine's alter Ego,we don't know how it was established(unless it is in New Spring which I haven't read). For all we know Lan could have introduced Moiraine as Mistress Alys, and from then on she is Alys, i.e. it is no longer a lie, "the pattern" refers querys for Mistress Alys to Moiraine so she IS Alys. The matter would be totally different if an AS tried to assume the Identity of a real person, if an AS tries to pass herself off as say, Alsbet Luhhan of Emond Field

22

jason wolfbrother: 2004-01-11

Neither Verin nor Moiraine lied about their names. They were both very careful in the wording

from EotW Ch. 13 Choices

"We do not go by our own names here," Moiraine continued. "Here I am known as Alys and Lan is Andra. Remember that. Good."

Verin also is careful in her wording

from WH Ch. 24 Among the Counsels

"All of you may call me Eadwina," Verin said."

Neither lied.

23

Elder Haman: 2004-01-11

Nor did Verin lie about being sent my Moriane-

Notice that Verin tells Intgar that Moriane sent her to help Intgar- not Rand.

Moriane tells Rand that she did not tell Verin to watch out for him, that "she did that on her own." Moriane could have told Verin to "go help Intgar" and thus nobody lied. (Though Moriane knew of course that Verin would watch out for Rand). As further proof, when Verin arrives and finds Rand gone, she does not take Intgar's offer to help her track Rand, instead she stays to help Ingtar.

24

Jes: 2004-01-25

I agree Verin is not evil. I believe she is hunting Black Ajah and has been secretly doing so for many years.

That may explain her "lie". "Moraine sent me" could refer to somethat that happened any time, as in "Moraine agrees I should hunt Darkfriends". After all, there was a Darkfriend among those hunting the horn, wasn't there?! Moraine did not, however, send Verin to shepherd Rand.

25

kikyo: 2004-01-26

I also don't think that Verin is evil. It just doesn't make sense with all that we know about her ... except for the "lie."

One explanation for that is that she somehow got around the oath. What I think is interesting is that Moiraine has no reaction to the fact that Verin apparently lied. If it was such a blatant lie, then wouldn't Moiraine immediately suspect Verin of being Black Ajah, even send a pidgeon to Siuan to that effect? But she doesn't even seem to register it. So she must have felt it was easily explained.

Also, I think it's possible that Verin discovered the secret of the oath rod and released herself from the oaths in order to fulfill her goal of helping the dragon reborn. She is brown, after all, and perhaps in her studies she figured out that you can remove the oath by swearing new oaths on a rod. Maybe she even figured out that this is how the Black Ajah did it. At the time when she knows the Dragon has been reborn and the last battle is coming, perhaps she foresees that in order to help win it, she will have to use her power as a weapon, and perhaps lie, etc. Knowing that winning Tar'mon gai'don is more important than the oaths, she goes and gets the oath rod and swears a new oath to help the Dragon Reborn defeat the shadow by any means possible.

It think it's possible, and a neat idea.

26

rubbernilly: 2004-01-26

I agree that neither Verin nor Moiraine has lied about their names. They let people believe what they want to believe.

Here's something, though. Correct me if I'm wrong (it's been a while since I lookd at this scene), but do we *know* that Verin was about to use poison on Cadsuane? We've seen her use herbs and potions several times, and more since New Spring came out. Moiraine and Siuan are under the effects of one of Verin's vile tasting potions most nights leading up to their test. Could it be Verin was gathering information from them here?

But, the main question remains: if we are not told that Verin was trying to kill Cadsuane, then I think it much more fits her character that she was going to use a relaxing herb to either (a) get information from Cadsuane, or (b) put her in a trusting state so that she could use her weak form of Compulsion to extract information.

Either way, the end is the same. She might have been just looking for information from Cadsuane.

27

Persephone: 2004-02-23

I don't believe that Verin is Black Ajah, but just like Moiraine, she follows her own agenda.

After Egwene, Nyneave, and Elayne return to Tar Valon with an ill Mat in need of healing, Verin goes straight to Siun Sanche when they arrive.

I don't have the books, but Siun says something to the effect that the "three of them" (Siun, Moiraine, and Verin) were all involved in the mission with Rand. She goes on to say something about how they were all in it together and if anyone knew there'd be hell to pay.

Then Verin goes on to tell Siun that Rand is on his way to Tear - and Siun says something like "It's Callandor then." We know that Siun and Moiraine are dedicated to making the Dragon survive for TG, Verin's doing the same thing.

The only thing that does make me wonder is her use of compulsion and her age factor.

(New Spring Spoiler) She was never chosen as one of the searchers for Rand and yet she is lumped with Siun and Moiraine by Siun's own words. When did they talk with her about Rand? Is that something we will find out in the next prequel? RJ has to include how Verin came to be included amongst the 3 behind the Dragon Reborn. I believe that Verin will be a mjor player in the next or subsequent prequel, including proving she is not Black Ajah and maybe how she figured out how to get around the Oath rod and lie.

28

dragonsceptor: 2004-02-23

**(New Spring Spoiler) She was never chosen as one of the searchers for Rand and yet she is lumped with Siun and Moiraine by Siun's own words. When did they talk with her about Rand?**

Siuan and Moiraine talked to Verin in Shienar. When Siuan came and talked to Rand. Verin confronted Siuan and Moraine and they brought her into their group as that was the most expedient thing to do. Additionally, the comment about there being hell to pay is most likely in reference to the fact that all 3 (Verin, Siuan, and Moiraine) knew that Rand was the dragon reborn and not only did not notify the tower, but aided him in secret. IMO, the Jury is still out on whethre Verin is evil or not.

29

charliec: 2004-02-23

Nah, Verin's not evil. In the time she was accompanying the boys and Ingtar the Dark One was still employing his capture or kill tactics, and she could easily have ended it all there...

I'd not noticed her 'lie' before but am sure she's sly enough to have done this truthfully, although I do like the idea of her having used the oath rod to remove those pesky oaths (nothing evil about that, perfectly sensible).

Come to think of it though doesn't she think about her oath to Rand when we have her PoV in one of the recent books? while she's in the aiel tents questioning prisoners I think.

As for the 'by her actions we shall know her' line... I know I'd be inclined to use dodgy tactics like compulsion in some circumstances, an I'm not evil... (admittedly, I could just be saying that...)

30

Mairashda: 2004-02-23

It's not Verin but Min that tells Siuan that Rand is on his way to Tear...an it's in the first chapter of the shadow rising.

31

Darren: 2004-04-22

**Natas, Moiraine herself made a comment in Book 2 that Egwene could one day be Amyrlin.

**Actually, that's in the first book :). (Callandor)

Sorry Callandor, that's in the Great Hunt, when Egwene was smuggling Rand into the women's apartments after the other Aes Sedai had arrived.

32

Callandor: 2004-04-22

**Sorry Callandor, that's in the Great Hunt, when Egwene was smuggling Rand into the women's apartments after the other Aes Sedai had arrived.**

I have no doubt, but the first was in The Eye of the World.

**TITLE: The Eye of the World

CHAPTER 12: Across the Taren

"Now you are behaving like a foolish vilage girl. Most who come to Tar Valon must study for months before they can do what you just did. You may go far. Perhaps even the Amyrlin Seat, one day, if you study hard and work hard."**

33

danger: 2004-05-16

Now, I'm not even sure what I think about her being evil or not...but Here's something to think about. She says to Ingtar with a "self satisfied smile." That she has been sent to Moiraine to help him.

Well maybe this smile is because she HAS been sent to help him, but not by Moiraine. Maybe she has been sent by the darkfriend council. Darkfriends usualy don't know too many other darkfriends unless they rank pretty high. I'm assuming that as BA Verin would be pretty high indeed, so she might know Ingtar even he dosen't know her.

Now, I didn't really see her helping him do anything evil so I don't know, it's just a possibility. My guess is that she has freed herself from the oathrod in her studies from some crazy brown reason or because she knew she would need to for her "secret plans."

Also. While Elayne and Nyn have Moggy leashed up they keep asking her how to detect a man channeling. Apparently it is possible but it involves actually using Saidar, it isn't just a passive thing.

34

charliec: 2004-05-18

**Also. While Elayne and Nyn have Moggy leashed up they keep asking her how to detect a man channeling. Apparently it is possible but it involves actually using Saidar, it isn't just a passive thing.**

But Moggy was tricking them, and just teaching a ludicrously complex weave to cause headaches for them... whether or not there is such a real weave is not clear...

35

Oatman: 2004-05-19

I dont beleive Verin is evil, however I do beleive that she has her own agenda to see to, and that she puts this above all else. All we really know about her past is that she made a mistake 70 years ago, and that she has a death sentence waiting for her in Far Madding. All we know about her character is that she is very deceptive and manipulative, even for an Aes Sedai, and that she hides it very well. I thinks she has been manipulating events for years to get to the point she is at now, and that she may or may not have removed the Oath not to lie. She is by far one of the most intelligent characters in the book, and I beleive she will take a more active role sometime soon. The only way to know anything for sure though is to wait for the next book.

36

Lauric: 2004-08-05

**(New Spring Spoiler) She was never chosen as one of the searchers for Rand and yet she is lumped with Siun and Moiraine by Siun's own words. When did they talk with her about Rand? Is that something we will find out in the next prequel? RJ has to include how Verin came to be included amongst the 3 behind the Dragon Reborn. I believe that Verin will be a mjor player in the next or subsequent prequel, including proving she is not Black Ajah and maybe how she figured out how to get around the Oath rod and lie.**

TGH, I believe, Moiraine, Siuan and Verin were in a room at Fal Dara talking. Moi and Siuan were talking vaguely about Rand, believing Verin wasn't paying attention, and then Verin busted something out to let them know she knew what they were talking about.

As for her supposed lying, I can't remember where I read it but there was a theory going around that she could have read something in Corianin Nedal's notes abou T'A'R, went there, created an oath rod and released herself. "What happens in T'A'R is real upon waking". This could also be the reason she never ended up giving the notes to Egwene.

37

clarkkd: 2004-10-22

IF Verin removed the oaths then she would not have the ageless look?

Probably already posted

38

Callandor: 2004-10-22

**IF Verin removed the oaths then she would not have the ageless look?**

If she did not replace them, yes, she would lose the Ageless look.

39

Unicorn: 2004-10-22

"loosing" the oaths does not mean loosing the ageless look, I have no quotes handy - some might say because there are none - is is never mentioned when Elaida's hunters removes the oath that "the look" disapears. So if Verin removed the oaths after attaining "the look" .....

I do however think that the "creating an oath rod in T'A'R" thing has been thrashed beyond belief somewhere else

40

charliec: 2004-10-23

** "loosing" the oaths does not mean loosing the ageless look, I have no quotes handy - some might say because there are none - is is never mentioned when Elaida's hunters removes the oath that "the look" disapears. So if Verin removed the oaths after attaining "the look" .....**

There'll probably be a flood of response on this, but all the eidence so far does suggest that removing the oaths does let the ageless look begin to dissipate. The reason Elaida's hunters haven't observed this is that no-one has been left unbound for more than a few hours, and it appears to be a gradual process (like the appearance of the look).

Admittedly this has never been explicitly stated, but it is the conclusion that the characters and readers have been lead towards.

41

Jumai: 2004-10-23

err...

Suian and Leane are our case study for the ageless look and the oaths.

42

Callandor: 2004-10-23

**"loosing" the oaths does not mean loosing the ageless look, I have no quotes handy - some might say because there are none - is is never mentioned when Elaida's hunters removes the oath that "the look" disapears.**

That's because they re-swear the Oaths after loosing them. If Verin took away the Oaths with the intention of having more freedom, she would not re-swear them, and hence lose the Ageless look like Siuan and Leane did (whether it was immediate or took some time, debatable; however she would lose them).

43

Aiel Finn: 2004-10-24

I think she may have made an Oath Rod in T'A'R and used it to remove at least some of the Oaths. About her still having the ageless look, she may not have removed all the Oaths, and we know that the look doesn't go away instantly. She seems to have a good deal of knowledge of secret weaves too. Could she be using an illusion to give herself the look?

44

fistandantilus: 2004-10-25

Based solely on the evidence that we have seen in the books, we cannot conclude that the removal of the oaths also removes the ageless look. We can't use Siuan or Leane as evidence, because not only were the oaths removed, but they were STILLED. That could be the cause of the return to normalcy, not being able to touch the Source. Personally I think that removing the oaths would remove the look, but we can't reject it out of hand.

And what about the Black Ajah? They remove their oaths, somehow, but do they swear their oaths to the Shadow on an Oath Rod? I don't think we've seen anything like that in the books; however, I may be wrong. I'm sure some one (probably Callandor) will come up with a quote to prove this wrong.

45

clarkkd: 2004-10-25

Suin and Lean, lost their agless look do to the fact that they where tortured. The red with the Aiel in her POV says that there is a new trinity of oaths. Those that are burnt out or are stilled are sent away and the books point out that there are rumors of the loss of aglessness.

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clarkkd: 2004-10-25

In Far Mading she has a letter delivered to Rand stating that the renegades are in the spare room of a boot makers. The spidery hand writting. Just like what Egwen receives from Verin in book 3.

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brother of Battles: 2004-10-25

Personally, I am not too sure if Verin is evil or not.

By evidence, everything seems to point to her wanting to keep Rand alive and has his best interest at heart, in her opinion.

But there is something nagging at me since the 2nd book that keeps making me think she is evil. When she was talking to Suian about the dark prophacy written on the prison walls she was in the process of saying "The Great.." that was when Siuan cut her off. The only people who ever call the DO that are the darkfriends, forsaken, and the BA.

Maybe it is nothing, but what if everyone thinks she was just talking about what was written and saying what was written. Has anyone thought about the possiblity that it was a real slip and she was about to say "the Great Lord of the Dark..blah, blah, blah." instead of "the Dark One..blah, blah, blah."

Just a thought.

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Callandor: 2004-10-25

** Based solely on the evidence that we have seen in the books, we cannot conclude that the removal of the oaths also removes the ageless look. We can't use Siuan or Leane as evidence, because not only were the oaths removed, but they were STILLED. That could be the cause of the return to normalcy, not being able to touch the Source. Personally I think that removing the oaths would remove the look, but we can't reject it out of hand.**

1. There are channelers in every society. They exist there.

2. Only Aes Sedai have the Ageless look.

3. Only Aes Sedai swear on the Oath Rod.

Tell me where the missing leap is here?

Stilling of course causes the loss of the Ageless look -- it causes the loss of the Oaths!

**And what about the Black Ajah? They remove their oaths, somehow, but do they swear their oaths to the Shadow on an Oath Rod? I don't think we've seen anything like that in the books; however, I may be wrong. I'm sure some one (probably Callandor) will come up with a quote to prove this wrong.**

Yes, they do.

The Black Ajah remove the original three Oaths, and replace them "with a new trinity"; translation -- they swear their own version of the three Oaths.

This is in ACOS, Chapter 40 - Spears (if you want me to quote it for you, I will, but I figured you can do a little reading and save me the time).

Also, Galina only recognizes the rod Sevanna has as a "second" Oath Rod; translation -- the Black Ajah swear their three Oaths, on the Oath Rod itself (they do not have a second one used just for Black Ajah swearing).

So they do maintain the Ageless look, only because they have re-sworn new Oaths.

**Suin and Lean, lost their agless look do to the fact that they where tortured.**

And why is that?

1. Where was Amico's torturing? She was stilled and lost the look.

2. Where was Irgain, Ronaille and Sashalle's torturing? They were stilled by Rand at Dumai's Wells, and lost the look.

**In Far Mading she has a letter delivered to Rand stating that the renegades are in the spare room of a boot makers. The spidery hand writting. Just like what Egwen receives from Verin in book 3.**

That was a letter by Padan Fain. He set a trap for Rand, which is why when Rand went after the renegades, they were already dead at Fain's hand.

**But there is something nagging at me since the 2nd book that keeps making me think she is evil. When she was talking to Suian about the dark prophacy written on the prison walls she was in the process of saying "The Great.." that was when Siuan cut her off. The only people who ever call the DO that are the darkfriends, forsaken, and the BA.**

**TITLE: The Great Hunt

CHAPTER: 7 - Blood Calls Blood

"I can only give you what I know, Mother," Verin said, looking up from her notes, "and leave the decision in your hands. I believe the last of Artur Hawkwing's foreign armies died long ago, but because I believe it does not make it so. The Time of Change, of course, refers to the end of an Age, and the Great Lord--"**

If you refer to this quote, Verin is simply explaining to Siuan what her view of the Dark Prophecy is. The Great Lord was mentioned in it, and it obviously refered to one person: the Dark One. Verin is simply listing the connections.

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jason wolfbrother: 2004-10-25

to fistandantilus, yes they do reswear a new trinity of Oaths on the Oath Rod.

CoS Ch. 40 Spears

"She had been broken free of the Three Oaths on joining the Black Ajah, replacing them with a new trinity,..."

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Jalt Varyd: 2004-10-26

**Has anyone thought about the possiblity that it was a real slip and she was about to say "the Great Lord of the Dark..blah, blah, blah." instead of "the Dark One..blah, blah, blah."**

I find it much more likely that she was quoting than that it was an actual slip of the tongue. We can be fairly certain that Verin is very smart, and doesn't often give away anything she doesn't want to. That's something any of the BA would have to be very careful about, since it would usually be a give away.

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fistandantilus: 2004-10-26

Thank you, Callandor. That was just an attempt to play Devil's Advocate, and hope some one would prove it wrong. And no need to provide the quote, I found it shortly after I posted. Any way, I still don't think Verin is BA. "The truth an Aes Sedai tells you is not always the truth you think it is." Verins statements can be taken in several ways that would still make them true. And she has done nothing detrimental to the cause of the Dragon or his followers, except for possibly piss of the non Rand Aes Sedai by making the other sisters swear to him.

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clarkkd: 2004-10-27

When Min rescues, Suin and Lean it is mentioned that Alhverin(I can't spell) tortured them and that the loss of the aglessness so quickly came from the beatings that they recieved. Avienda in the 3rd book mentions after awhile that the one Aes Sedia lost here look.

Yes they lost their agless look but it was over time not imediately like Suin.

In about every case of stilling/burning out it is mentioned after some time has passed. Except for Suin and Lean. They lost their look with in a day.

53

Sampson: 2004-10-27

I do not think Verin is evil, I would be seriously disappointed if she does turn out to be on the Dark side. I think Verin is one of the best female characters in the series, she is intelligent and has everybody fooled. She has the ability to be in control but not have everybody know she is pulling the strings. Plans with in plans, one of the ultimate players of the game of houses. She is not the most powerful or beautiful; she is a blue collar AS.

I know there isn't any proof that she has removed the 3 oaths, but I have the feeling that she has modified the 3 oaths to suite what she feels she needs as loop holes. We know she has had a plan for the last 70 years; we know she pays attention to details and notices more than she leads others to believe. She notices that Siuan & Moraine have had stuff cooking since they put on the shawl.

She is a Brown, she has come across allot of documentation (i.e. that parchment that had the stuff about Ishy when Egwene came to get the Dream ring). She was ready to nix Cadsuane until she was sure she wouldn't mess up her plans. She has turned Elaida's AS to follow Rand (even if she did put a BA in his camp).

Basically I believe her personality and nature are that she doesn't share allot of her knowledge with others, not even her warder. To me that sounds wise. She knows she can get more accomplished if people tend to over look her.

I believe that Anaiya did tell her she was going to test Egwene as a dreamer. She read the notes and knew they would be over Egwene's head and may have given her false assumptions. So she let Egwene loose to find and learn on her own, she is already doing something extremely dangerous by hunting the BA. What is learning about dreaming on her own compared with that?

Verin will supply the key or do something that is key for Rand to win the last battle.

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clarkkd: 2004-10-28

Ely, and Nyn are talking together after meetting with the Kin, Ely asks "who is the oldest Novice in the tower?" or some such, Nyn replies with a name saying that who ever it is, is only a few years older.

Ely then laughs saying that what's her name is over 40! She only looks 26. The difference is that this Novice did not take the oath rod.

Remember for women the slowing proccess starts at roughly the same age!

The Point: The oath Rod causes the agless look. Verin is bound by the 3 oaths.

Question: Mogy says that when she was sealed she was around 300 just into her middle years, would the the oaths cut your life in half or is it more like each oath cuts your life by a certian amount?

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Callandor: 2004-10-29

**Question: Mogy says that when she was sealed she was around 300 just into her middle years, would the the oaths cut your life in half or is it more like each oath cuts your life by a certian amount?**

Most likely half. No Aes Sedai has lived past 300, yet the oldest channeler is over 600 years old. Some women of course die earlier then others, but I would think it would be half. Course that doesn't make it so ;) (dang it Scottie!)

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Kylin Taimar: 2005-08-30

This is my first posting, but wanted to point something out about Verin handing Egwene the ring but not the notes.

Someone stated very early on that she gave the ter'angreal to Egwene to help hunt the Black Ajah. It was one of the few dream ter'angreal that the Black sisters didn't know about.

The reasoning is simple, if Egwene failed, and was captured, why give the notes to the enemy as well. It is already known most Aes Sedai won't toy with ter'angreal they know nothing about.

I don't think Verin is evil, though I wish I could remember if she mentions what gives her the scar on the arm when she decided to venture into dreamland.

57

Heartstone Hunter: 2006-07-06

I am not sure if Verin is evil or not, but I think that she might be. I agree with Unicorn that Corianin was probably BA. I have also considered the fact that most of the BA is probably connected with the dream world. In fact, it might be a way to capture unsuspecting dreamer Aes Sedai and making them BA with the help of some Myrdral. Anyway, I think it is interesting that Verin could actually be Corianin. But, I think that we are going to find out that either Moi or Verin (or both) are indeed BA in the future (perhaps Moi was captured). Just because Verin is BA doesn't mean that she doesn't want Rand and company to get to the last battle. My first strong inclination that she might be BA was when she called Eg up to the study to meet with her and the owl landed on a Trolloc skull and then the ring was given to Eg. As soon as Eg left, she was intercepted by another BA... coincidentally, (BA seem to be the Mistresses of Novices... New Spring, etc., and walk in halls where Grey Men where just killed) and taken for the Accepted tests. How did she know to look for Eg up there, unless it was coordinated with Verin. Verin knew that there would be a problem with the ring close to the arches and thought that Eg would be harmed/killed/"stilled. And they both knew that Eg didn't have time to do anything with it right after leaving the study. If anything, whether Verin is good or bad, I think Verin is up there with Cadsuane in that she is a very old Aes Sedai with a lot of knowledge, etc., and there is some motivation besides helping Rand and company behind her actions.

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Sampson: 2006-07-07

Verin is probably the second best character of the series. She has consistently followed her own agenda, which happens to coincide with helping the Dragon Reborn to not only reach TG but also have a chance to win.

Verin has not done anything that might harm any of the main characters. You point out not giving the notes to Egwene. But if Egwene was truly a Dreamer, the notes might have set “predetermined” boundaries that could have hurt her development. Plus she doesn’t like to destroy or lose anything that was written and has knowledge. The notes would have a good chance of being destroyed if given to Egwene.

Plus just to through something out – she got a scar from going into the dream world. Maybe she came across the BA or found a clue that the BA was not only active, but had a serious presence in the WT. Why else would she encrypt her notes so nobody could decipher them? Just a thought.

Then people point out that she lied when she said she was sent by Moraine. But they fail to point out the at this point of the story there is only (3) AS that know that Rand is the DR. She would know that Moraine is well respected by the border land people – because (1) Lan (2) Being AS (3) spending time with the BL i.e. this was the 2nd time meeting the green man. So by referencing her name upon meeting the leader of the group, would eliminate allot of un-needed conversation. She could have easily said that Siuan sent her, what I am saying is when she says Moraine sent me she is referencing “WE” or the (3) AS that know about Rand. It is a slick way of manipulating the 3 oaths.

Verin has over the years has come across allot of information. She has researched the Dark Prophecies; she has researched that piece of parchment that deals with Ishy escaping every once in awhile.

I think Verin will be the key to Rand surviving the LB. She will put together some key information, maybe the Isam/Luc thing. Which might help Rand look like he has been killed, but really has been moved to another body (i.e. Mordins).

Verin is the best AS around and she has helped as much if not more the side of the light.

The only negative I can think of is – what did she do to get kicked out of her home city? Sorry I forgot the name – but the one with the te’angrel that doesn’t allow channeling.

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Davian93: 2006-07-08

****The only negative I can think of is – what did she do to get kicked out of her home city? Sorry I forgot the name – but the one with the te’angrel that doesn’t allow channeling.****

Getting kicked out of Far Madding is not neccessarily a indicator of anything bad or evil. She is a channerler and Far Madding doesnt like channelers of either sex. She might have been trying to find cracks in the Ter'angreal protecting the city or maybe she upset the current order of things politically, etc.

on another note...VERIN IS NOT EVIL!!!

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comadrin: 2008-10-22

Verin is a dark horse (a la Mat) in the whole series. In some ways, she could be seen as RJ's joker. She doesn't play by the rules, she obviously has her own agenda, her POV's (obviously by design) don't really tell us what is going on in her head. At the same time, all eleven volumes so far lead us (at least me, a middle-aged male who doesn't particularly like the female dominated society since the breaking) make simple-minded males like me really LIKE her. She is ruthless (I can understand that, as a former military officer), but she used to keep treats for the Moirane and Siuan to eat (at least, if I understand Moirane's POV in the early part of tGH correctly).

RJ isn;t (at least so far) one of those writers who sets the reader up to like someone and then shoots them down in flames as far as the character of one of his creations (read "chareacters" goes). As far as I can tell, with my limited education in the classics, he sets the stage without the 20th century desire to make the audience feel for or love a character and then make them the secret envoy of the ultimate evil, in this character: the Dark One.

She is obviously more than your basic AS, but I will be terribly disappointed if she turns out to be some subtle, evil character of the dark. I do not feel that RJ (the late, great Mr Rigby) would write a nihilist (i.e. Nietsche sort of book).

As one of the other WOT sites said, I think that she is a rather dark brown sister, but I have liked her ever since her appearance in the Great Hunt. If RJ releases her as a villain in tMoL, I will be disappointed , unless, of course, he does it in a manner of great literature, which would be only understandable to me as a laymen, but would be quite consistent in an author like Tolkien, Shakespeare or Homer.

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flik98: 2008-10-24

Just a few things people.

In TGH, Verin meets up with Mat and Ingtar and co, saying she came because Moiraine thought they might need her. Let me get the quote:

"Moirine Sedai sent me, Lord Ingtar," Verin announced with a satisfied smile. "She thought you might need me...".

Later, we hear that Moiraine did not send Verin to them. Now RJ has really worked Moiraine's and Verin's characters to properly behave as Aes Sedai. From the early books I always thought more of them should act a bit more mysteriously than they do! Now there is nothing here which proves either has lied, Moiraine may have sent her to do something, or (farfetched) Verin could dress up a peasant, call peasant Moiraine Sedai and make said peasant say 'go and look after Ingtar'. Aes Sedai are meant to be able to spin truth on its head and I think here we have that, from the two of the most clever and secreted Aes Sedai throughout the novels.

In some of Verin's pov, she talks about seeing Rand to the Last Battle, where he can finally die... we never actually see this as her concern for victory. Much like Elza's pov, getting to the Last Battle so the GL can beat him there *may* be her objective. Doing everything in her power, like protecting him whilst saidin is cleaned doesn't mean she wants a victory for the Light.

Myself, I hope Verin is on the good side, but I think her character so far could really go either way.

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flik98: 2008-10-24

and one more thing!

Just because Verin may be able to lie, she can still be bound by the Oath Rod...she probably worked out how to remove an Oath but still remain bound by the others, hence she retains her Ageless look.

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Katifer Gaidin: 2008-10-26

who came up with the verin is evil idea anyway? i have seen nothing sinister out of verin at all! i suppose i might have missed something...

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abzville1115: 2008-10-27

First of all, the oath rods use spirit component of the One power to bind your soul so that you only speak the truth. It just takes alot of will to bend around those spells, since they are metaphysical and not completely perfect - unlike other spells or magic in other fantasy books. Just like a gateway, it can be unravelled, but must be done in a very careful manner so something crazy like an explosion that could destroy the white tower wouldnt happen.

To me, Verin sounds like the Aes Sedai who will sit in the background and work things out, while when the time comes (Tarmon Gaiden) and Moiraine, Siuan, Egwene, Elayne and all those meddling women wreck things for Rand, Verin will come n put things back into place with a calm face, several humongous armies (Mat, Perrin, The East, The West and The North and South) behind her to take on the Dreadlords and armies of the Dark One.

In the End, how can such a cool Aes Sedai (compared to all those screamin' hair tuggin', sniffin' librarians - all but Cadsuane) be evil, when she is like the Snape of the Harry Potter series.