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y twist -- (dis)PROVE IT!

by Aelfinn: 2003-12-17 | 3 out of 10 (2 votes)

Previous Categories: Who Killed Asmodean

The age-old (at least for us) question:

Who killed Asmodean?

First, what's needed to kill anybody? Method, motive, opportunity.

Method: it could be anything that killed him quickly.

Motive: who can say all the motives for murder?

Opportunity: Asmodean was looking for wine in Rand's palace (in Caemlyn?). Anybody in the area at that time would have opportunity.

I'm not going to even try to prove anything, but instead, DISPROVE it all. Obviously, some points aren't true, but you can't tell which they are until you know what all of the points are.

Who has been suggested? Lanfear, Moiraine, Moridin/Ishamael, Shaidar Haran, Slayer, Padan Fain, Graendal, Demandred, Mazrim Taim, a random gholam, Davram Bashere, Liah, a random Myrddraal, Lews Therin, Sammael, a random Aes Sedai, Moghedien, Mesaana, the Aiel Wise Ones, Aviendha, the Green Man, and Bela.

Now, let's go through this person by person. Things in {{double brackets}} haven't been proven. FBC==need a 1-4 sentence summary for the person being the killer; FD-p==need someone to prove that the person DIDN'T kill Asmodean.

1: Lanfear.

We know that you don't necessarily die when you go through that doorway ter'angreal, and nobody knows WHEN Lanfear died/became Cyndane. She had even said that she wanted to kill Asmodean. He hated her and was glad that she was gone, opened a door, said "You? No!" and died.

But... When Mat was in that ter'angreal, he spent a few days (real time) when it seemed like much less, and was also "killed on exit". Would Lanfear have gotten off easier? After all, she IS a Forsaken, and the *finn don't like that. Even if she was killed, she probably couldn't have been "reincarnated" that quickly. After all, it took the 'gars five books, and three or four books for Ishy/Moridin (who is undoubtably in DO's favours more than the others).

({[NOTE: This is invalid if she used one of her "wishes" to kill Asmodean or someone]})

2: Moiraine.

FBC.

First there's the problem of her getting out of Finnland to kill Asmodean. Then, if she was out, wouldn't she have STAYED out and helped Rand? Even though she might (and probably does) know who "Jasin Natael" really is, would she have killed him by herself?

3: Moridin.

He wanted to get all the Forsaken back in line, as seen with mindtrapping two of them, and kicking a bunch of others' butts. {{He was in fancloth watching Rand kill Rahvin, and True Power'd Asmodean to death, so nobody sensed it.}}

But... We never learned about him until a couple of books later, and why would he kill one of his "Chosen"? He needs all he can get for Tarmon Gai'don, and as much as he's insane, I don't think the DO would let him do something THAT stupid.

4: Shaidar Haran.

He has plenty of abilities, both common Myrddraal ones and his own individual. If the DO wanted Asmodean dead, Shaidar Haran is the natural choice.

FD-p

5: Slayer.

We knew about him earlier, and he's for hire by Forsaken. {{One of those told him to kill Asmodean, and he did.}} Being able to physically go in and out of Tel'aran'rhiod, he could easily reach Asmodean and dispose of the body.

FD-p

6: Padan Fain.

Fain has the knack of turning up wherever he's not supposed to be, and also hates Rand. Wouldn't he just love to kill Rand al'Thor's teacher? {{He used the Shadar Logoth dagger.}}

FD-p

7: Graendal.

{{Graendal had somehow wrecked havoc on the Borderlands leaders, explaining all the dumb things they do, and Compelled Bashere. She killed Asmodean because he would alert Rand to her 'handiwork'.}}

FD-p

8: Demandred.

FBC./FD-p

9: Mazrim Taim.

{{Darkfriend Taim had been with Rahvin. With the Forsaken's death, he needed to leave. He ran into Asmodean and killed him for secrecy.}} And also, isn't it suspicious that he's gained the most from Asmodean dying, becoming M'Hael and all that?

FD-p

10: random gholam.

FBC./FD-p

11: Davram Bashere.

FBC./FD-p

12: Liah.

FBC./FD-p

13: random Myrddraal (and isn't the number 13 fitting!)

FBC./FD-p

14: Lews Therin.

LTT was definitely in the crime scene (being in Rand's head). {{A had-too-much-to-drink Rand went down to get wine, and saw Asmodean. LTT took over, and killed him. Either LTT used the Mask of Mirrors to make himself look like how he had been, or his mannerisms were recognisable to Asmodean, accounting for the "You? No!"}}

But... It's unlikely in the first place that LTT could take over Rand, even a drunk Rand. If he had, wouldn't he have just STAYED in control? And what's the Dragon Reborn doing getting his own wine, anyways? How come Rand doesn't know a thing about it, and how come LTT has never said anything about it?

15: Sammael.

FBC./FD-p

16: random Aes Sedai.

FBC./FD-p

17: Moghedien.

FBC.

She was definitely out of things by Asmodean's death; either dosed by forkroot, or held by the a'dam. It's kind of hard to go about killing people with either of those.

18: Mesaana.

FBC./FD-p

19: Aiel Wise Ones.

They always seem to know more than expected, and almost definitely would want to kill any Forsaken they could get their hands on. "Jasin Natael" was around them for some time, so it's possible they discovered about Asmodean.

FD-p

20: Aviendha.

FBC./FD-p

21: the Green Man.

Of all the characters who have killed Forsaken so far (Moiraine and Rand), he's the only one who hasn't had a previous chance to kill Asmodean. {{He was tied into Tel'aran'rhiod and used that 'need' thing to reach the area.}}

FD-p

22: Bela.

Heck, why not? Makes more sense than some ideas!

But... How would you get a HORSE into a PALACE unnoticed in the first place? disregarding that horses can't channel (no Skimming or Travelling) and she was nowhere in the area. Why the "You? No!" comment, if Asmodean's never seen Bela? He'd be more likely to say, "What in the Light is a horse doing here?" Also, Bela wouldn't be able to kill a person in the quick manner described.

The "Obvious" criterion: It had to be able to be figured out by the end of TFOH (and at absolute latest, end of LOC). Using the loosest definition of that term, the following are disproven: Shaidar Haran, Slayer, random gholam, and Mesaana. Using the definition ordinary human beings use, that cuts out: Moiraine, Moridin/Ishamael, Demandred, Mazrim Taim, Liah, Aviendha, and the Green Man. However, "obvious" can and has been twisted about in circles, because the author knows the answer and what clues are important. In other words, you can't take anybody out for sure.

So, that's all I have. Anything I've missed? Unless a point against somebody is very inaccurate (like, I said that someone was dead by that time when they weren't), please refute points in the appropriate theories (read: NOT HERE).
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Comments

1

Tamyrlin: 2003-12-30

I would have thought that I had said everything I could have said concerning this topic, in previous replies. But I will take a moment to stress two things that stuck out in your analysis. Who gained the most from Asmodean's death? I don't think you can say the DO did, because, depending on the manner of Asmodean's death, he might be lost to the DO. Did Taim gain the most? Possibly, if Asmodean would have recognized Taim in connection to being a darkfriend. If Demandred is pulling Taim's strings, then Demandred, via Taim, had the most to gain by placing Taim so close to Rand, but he had to get rid of Asmodean first. One other thing, the Aiel Wise Women. Rand was attacked by Lanfear and Aviendha was almost killed. Moiraine was aware of Asmodean, so can we assume that the Aiel Wise Women were also aware and that they chose this moment to remove him, because they no longer trusted the docile Forsaken in their midst (after the Lanfear episode), especially if they had been watching his dreams and noticed Lanfear stopping by to talk? Is there any reason why the Aiel Wise Women could not have done the killing?...Do we know if any were in the vicinity? I can't recall.

2

Mad Tinker: 2003-12-30

Wow Tamyrlin, that's a twist I never thought of. However, there are two reasons why I think the Wise Ones did not kill Asmodean.

1. The most plausable reason, also ~ if any of the Wise Ones had killed Asmodean, I think they would of told Rand. In fact, I think they would view it as a serious breach of 'Toh to not tell Rand.

2. If they knew Asmodean for the Forsaken he was, they would want to kill him. However, they would put that task to their Chief of Chief's.

3

Arien Sedai: 2003-12-31

Great theory. I've just got one comment: if Fain killed Asmodean, why didn't he try to kill Rand if he was already in the palace? Also, how did he dispose of the body?

4

: 2003-12-31

What?

How do you use Aviendha's peril at the hands of Lanfear as justification that the WOs knew *anything*? Avi was attacked by Lanfear because Lanfear thought (correctly, it turns out) that Aviendha was the one with whom Rand had had sex.

Moiraine knew about Asmo probably from her eavesdropping trick with her blue stone. Now whether she shared that information with the WOs... we don't know.

But *that* is how the WOs would know *if* they knew, which we cannot say for certain. Nothing to do with a similar reason regarding why Aviendha was attacked.

5

Alanna Mosvani: 2003-12-31

Here's one point: Robert Jordan said in an interview that the killer should be "obvious" immediately, i.e. before book 6 even came out: which would knock out: Shaidar Haran, Demandred, Taim, Mesaana, maybe a couple of others.

6

Alanna Mosvani: 2003-12-31

I take it back. I didn't read far down enough.

7

free will: 2004-01-01

There is an option that you left out. Most people assume that Asmodean was not brought back by the DO. But if you first assume that he was, one can ask the question, ..., as whom? The answer might be Shaidar Hadar. If the DO himself is almost ready to take on a material form, he could have "chosen" Asmodean as the host to tbe the dark of the dark. The new very very short leash will keep Asmodean more faithful and no waste of a soul. Method: True Power and personal possession, its the DO for the lights sake! Motive: turns atraitor into a faithful servant and increases the DOs grip, pretty good as motives go. Opportunity: Weakening of the seals.

8

Tamyrlin: 2004-01-01

I didn't use it as justification. My point was, the Wise One's were likely aware of Lanfear's presence in T'A'R and of her infatuation with Rand. Also, they were probably aware of Asmodean's identity, especially if they were watching his dreams and watching Lanfear contact him. Her attack pointed out to them, in my opinion, the vulnerability in having a Forsaken, no matter how domesticated, in their midst, no matter what he was teaching Rand. They knew Rand would never allow it, but they weren't going to give over the security of Aviendha, who is important to them, and the Aiel people to Asmodean, who could very well inform their enemies as to any information he knows (that being most of all information Rand hears.)

9

IkilledAsmodean: 2004-01-03

I'd say Bela is the obvious choice.

10

Anubis: 2004-01-04

Time flows differently in other worlds. Not, oh it flows faster, thats different. Or, oh, much slower, how different. It flows, hey last time i was gone for an hour and it was really a day, this time i was gone for a day and it was ten minutes. That is whey mats trip through the portal could take so long, while another persons trip, like lanfears could be over in a few short minutes while seeming like alot longer.

11

Anubis: 2004-01-04

oh... and where did anyone ever get the idea that the finns hated the forsaken? its that damn, questions too close to the dark one are punished. well it makes sense, there reading somthing close to an incredibly powerfull being that can prolly sense them or somthing. i bet they may have pissed the dark one off in the past by reading somthing close to him and now they dont do that anymore or somthing. it doesnt mean that they hate evil. in fact they are neilther good or evil, but so different that they might as well be evil. moirine said that, and she is infallable for some reason. so deal with it.

12

brigitta: 2004-01-05

I think we should take into consideration that the first thing Asmo taught Rand was how to protect his dreams so that the WO couldn't see them anymore. he was very weak then because of Lanfear's little knot, but still able to demonstrate... so wouldn't it be obvious that he protected his dreams as well? Of cource that brings another issue: if he protected his dreams and the WO wanted to look, I think they would think it a tad bit odd that not only Rand but a mere gleeman have their dreams protected. but as much as they know this can mean 2 things: 1) gleeman can channel 2) Rand did it for some reason.

13

Aelfinn: 2004-01-05

I'm gonna try and list "motive" now.

1: to keep secret

-someone's very existence

-someone's involvement in something

-something Asmo might tell

2: to get revenge

-on Rand by killing his teacher

-on Asmo for a personal grievance

-on the closest Forsaken

3: to make room

-for a new 'close advisor'

-for something else.

14

Rhodric: 2004-01-05

There were no wise Ones in Caemlyn at the time of Asmo's assasination, only spearfighters and Aviendha.

15

Anubis: 2004-01-05

So it was either revenge, aka lanfear.

To introduce someone new. In which case the shadow (and by shadow i mean someone acting on orders from moridin or the DO) killed asmo, in order for taim to be introduced. It might be concievable that rand could have put asmo in charge of his school... rand would have deffinatly kept a closer eye on it then.

Or it was to keep a secret. It was already too late to prevent asmodean from blabbing about everything he knew, so it must have been somthing he had recently learned. Aka someone was in the palace watching rand.

Unfortunatly the only one of these that points to an obvious killer is the first one. The immediate introduction of taim is pretty suspicious, it is possible that asmodean would have recognized him as a darkfriend, but in that case i do not know who the killer would be. Most likely random forsaken, but that fails the obviousness. Unless theres somthing i havent thought of, and there probably is.

16

Raen Mhaal: 2004-10-27

Going back to the statement made by RJ that it should be obvious at the time of Asmodean's death, who the murderer was - if it was to be obvious at THAT time, then does this not imply that the motive must also have been obvious? For the killer to be obvious, so then must the killers motive be obvious. Which kinda rules out the "making room for Taim" theory.

Lanfear promised to kill Asmodean. Lanfear had previously stated (to herself, but it's in the books in black and white) that as soon as Rand knew enough, Asmo would be disposed of. After Rand was able to hold her off on the docks at Cairhien, Lanfear will believe Rand knows enough, and that it's time for Asmo to be removed. In fact, to her way of thinking, it is in great part Asmo's fault that Rand could hold her off, since he was Rands teacher. Lanfear fits the obvious comment better than anyone else.

The only thing which gets in the way of the Lanfear theory is that she was presumed dead. But nobody saw her die. She went to Finnland, where we know time flows differently, so it is entirely possible that she got out and then killed Asmo. As for why she's Cyndane now - well, she had her own agenda. Now she has been taken down a peg by being put into this lesser body and with her power lessened, and is mindtrapped to Moridin. Death, then a lesser body and lesser power, as a form of punishment? And as I said before, nobody saw Lanfear die, we just saw her go to Finnland.

I am behind on the books though, so apologies in advance if any of this has been covered in the last book or two...

17

Saidar Haran: 2006-04-12

The Green Man couldn't have done it - he was dead.

It was Graendal maquerading as Mesaana masquerading as Shaidar Haran masquerading as Moridin masquerading as Moiraine masquerading as Lanfear masquerading as Bela. :p

18

kivo: 2009-11-01

Lanfear fulfilled her promise via Slayer, who we knew was an assassin used by the Shadow and can enter/exit Tower of Ghenjei. That's a very simple explanation based on what was known up to book 5.