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et's Flog Some Dead Horses...

by Theo Rhetorical: 2007-04-23 | 3 out of 10 (11 votes)

Previous Categories: Who Killed Asmodean

It seems to me that a big part of the answer to this mystery hinges on chronology.

Who knew what when?

Who was where when?

First, some background:

-Lanfear devises a plan to capture Rand with a small linked circle of other Forsaken by luring him into attacking Sammael. This plan is proposed and ( more or less ) agreed to in the Prologue to FoH.

But, how was it supposed to work?

Enough clues were to be planted and enough information was to be leaked that even a simple farmboy from the sticks would be sure to realize that Sammael had taken over Illian.

Okay, so Rand attacks, then what? Things are likely to get really messy once that happens.

It seems obvious that Sam didn't go to all the trouble of building his powerbase someplace just to have Rand blow that place up around his ears.

First Premise: The actual battle was never meant to take place within Illian. Once Rand had attacked, Sammael would lead him straight into the prearranged trap, which was to be within Shadar Logoth - a place that none of the Forsaken would care about getting damaged.

Second Premise: Nobody knew exactly when Rand would attack. All any of them knew was that he was following the clues and making preparations for the attack. One of them, probably Sam, planted Melindhra and her dagger on Rand's inner circle to make sure that he didn't get sidetracked and do something else.

Third Premise: With no definitely known time for the attack, they mutually agreed on an alarm system that would notify each of them when Rand moved. They would then individually gate to a preplanned location within Shadar Logoth, link, and await Sammael and Rand's arrivals.

Fourth Premise: With the major details arranged and a Rally Point agreed to, each of them returned to their normal activities to await the tripping of the alarm.

The implication of this point is that nobody was sitting around holding hands on the day Rand attacked Caemlyn. Rahvin was in Caemlyn preparing for both attack and betrayal. Graendal was in Arad Domon. Sammael was building up his defenses along the borders of Illian. Lanfear was operating independently as usual.

The day before all of this, word gets to Rand that he thinks means Queen Morgase has been killed by Rahvin. He impulsively decides to take revenge against Rahvin before moving against Sam, and tells his key people. Mat lets slip to Melindhra that Rand is moving on Caemlyn the next morning, and she tries to kill him in order to force Rand to follow through on the attack on Sam first.

That doesn't work. She dies before getting a chance to tell anyone what she's learned.

So how does Moggy know?

Fifth Premise: Moggy spies on people's dreams and rummages through their memories while they sleep. Or, possibly she knows a technique to induce them to dream about what happened during the day. Either way, she learns about the change of plan.

Moiraine drags Rand to the docks because this day has been foretold in her trip through the Rings in Rhuidean or possibly is part of one possible future she foresaw during her Testing for AS, years ago. Lanfear is quizzing Kadere, learns about Aviendha and Egwene and their relationship with Rand, goes balistic, and she and Moiraine go through the twisted doorway together. Big pyrotechnics. No more doorway.

Afterwards, Rand attacks Caemlyn, trips one of Rahvin's Wards, and Avi, Mat and Asmo die in the resulting lightning storm. Rand BF's Rahvin back to who-knows-when, and all are returned to life.

A short time later, while the Aiel are still mopping up Shadowspawn, Davram Bashere arrives in the throneroom and meets with Rand.

Shortly thereafter, Asmo goes wandering off alone, pulls open a small door, sees someone he recognizes, and dies suddenly and mysteriously.

So, where was everybody at the time he died?

As far as the books, themselves, tell us:

Bel'al and Rahvin have been Balefired and are no longer in existence in any form;

Aginor, Balthamel, and Ishamael/Ba'alzamon have all been killed by less drastic means and are awaiting Transmigration ( although nobody but the author is aware of that at this time. );

Moiraine and Lanfear are somewhere inside Finnland - status and condition unknown;

Sammael is fortifying his positions in Illian;

Graendal is at home in Arad Domon, plotting mischief and playing with her living toys;

Moghedien, herself is a forkroot drugged captive of Nynaeve;

None of the other Forsaken have any known location at the time;

When last seen, Rand is in the throneroom meeting with Davram Bashere. Enaila and Somara are both present;

Mat and Aviendha are talking quietly in the garden that Asmo just left;

None of these five have any known motive;

All others are totally unknown.

So, what has RJ told us about this death so far in interviews, booksignings and the like?

First, that the perp should "be intuitively obvious to the most casual observer." Also, that all of the clues to the killer's identity are present before "The Fires of Heaven" ends. That the killer is somebody we've already seen, ie. met as themselves. That both where Asmo died and how he died are the reason he cannot be transmigrated. That it was not Padan Fain. That the DO didn't order an assassination.

What additional clues has he published in subsequent books?

That Demandred did not know that Asmo was dead until the DO told him. That Graendal had been expecting a visit from Moggy. That Sammael would gladly kill Asmo if only he knew where Asmo was, and truly doesn't believe he is already dead. That Lanfear/Cyndane had been "held" by the Finns.

Who does that leave from those whom we've already met when Asmo dies?

Moiraine whose possible motive in light of her letter to Rand is unknown.

Bashere whose possible connection to Asmodean is unknown.

The DO itself. While we technically haven't yet met Shaidar Haran AS Shaidar Haran, we did meet an earlier unnamed version of him in "The Great Hunt", and the new, improved, full-blown version is what greets Demandred at Shayol Ghul the very next day. RJ has also said that, while not a full blown avatar, SH *is* a vessel into which the DO can project a shadow of itself. Therefore, technically, if SH did the deed, the DO did it itself, which isn't the same as ordering it done. But, would Asmo have recognized Shaidar Haran? Unknown and unknowable. Graedal didn't, and we have a confirmed visit by her to SG, so SH must not always be present at such meetings. Semirhage and Mesaana are both unpleasantly surprised by him in subsequent books. It seems most likely that SH would have been unknown to Asmo.

That's as far as I can go. There seems to be only two real suspects and no way to pick between them other than which feels most intuitive to you.

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Comments

1

Tamyrlin: 2007-08-20

Well...considering that one of my first theories was Asmodean's Demise...I can't ignore more flogging of this open casket. ~wonders why he can't let this go...~ It is my belief that Lanfear has been visiting Asmodean periodically in T'A'R to find out what Rand is up to, since Rand has been warding his dreams. If you recall, Asmodean was going to stay at the Palace, but then surprisingly asks if he can go along for the trip into Rahvin's den the next morning, a request he seems oddly compelled to request. Moggy, of course, witnesses their discussion, which is how she knows Rand plans to go visit Rahvin. Lanfear shows up that morning, likely to take the trip, slip in behind with everyone. While there she plans to check in with Kadere, and then we witness all Hell breaking loose. I believe that scenario explains the entire Moggy/Lanfear/Asmo scenario. As you mention, Jordan gives us plenty of reason over the next few books to believe that all of our main suspects did not do the deed. So, as you say, we have to look to secondary characters that would have motive and opportunity. I think Shaidar Haran is a weak option; I highly doubt the DO would be responsible for killing Asmodean in such a fashion that he could not be transimgrated. Which leaves us with a list of secondary characters that do not make much sense whatsoever. For example, I want it to be Aviendha given the task by the Wise Ones, but I would have to prove that she knew balefire, which is difficult to do, beyond saying she Moiraine use it (which I don't think I can prove), or that she learned this from the Wise One's which I can't prove. I do not like Bashere as the culprit, because his ability to prevent the DO from transmigrating Asmodean forces us to create some elaborate weapon. If only Jordan hadn't given us Rand musing about Asmodean's location in book six, I might be tempted to believe that Rand killed him. Of course, I would love to believe Lanfear managed it somehow, but I think Jordan was trying to close that out by giving us the "holding" scenario...so my best bet these days is Aviendha...for which I have very little proof to offer.

2

terez: 2007-08-21

Aviendha definitely did it. It's intuitively obvious. :)

3

Davian93: 2007-08-22

~sniffs the air hesitantly~

Man, that smells wretched. How long has that horse been out in the sun?

Personally, I still lean towards Graendal, even after hearing all the arguments for and against the various characters. I'd never considered Avi before, but I don't know why Asmo would be so afraid if he walked into a room and ran into her. To me, that would imply a Forsaken to instill such fear in a "traitor" such as Asmo.

4

Catalyst: 2007-08-23

Ummm... I don't think it's Aviendha. Only Moiraine knew that master "Jasin Natael" was who he was. Even if she had told the Wise Ones about it, she would have told them also why Rand needs him alive (to teach him how to use saidin)and would ask them to do not harm him. Later in Aviendha's POVs she never mentions Natael or that she even got close enough to do him in.

You haven't considered Taim. We know he's a bad, bad guy. And he was around when Asmodean was killed. Yes, if Taim had used saidin, Rand probably would have felt it, but we know that the True Power can be sensed only by someone else who can also wield it.

More, we haven't known where Asmo was before he was involved in Lanfear's plan in TSR. We also don't know how Taim escaped. I think that Asmo gave a hand in Taim's escape. And when he goes into that room, he sees and recognizes Taim. At least this is my opinion. I don't see how anyone else could have known Asmodean.

5

vardene: 2007-08-24

And i don't know why you'd leave out a natural assassin like slayer. Any of the forsaken could have ordered him to do it (unlike S.H.) and asmo probably knows him too.

I am not quite sure that Moridin was awaiting transmigration at the time. do you have proof for this?

6

Starbolt: 2007-08-26

I don't see Aviendha as the killer either. Right before he leaves her. She'd have to quickly get done with Mat and somehow find where Asmo was going and beat him there. It doesn't seem like enough time for that to happen.

I still like the idea of Lanfear. I mean when you tell someone you will see them dead, that seems to be the most obvious answer. In fact, when I first read the book, that's the first person I thought of.

Graendal has a lot of guess work and circumstantial things. The fact that she caught wind of Rand spontaneously going to Caemlyn, then didn't interfere with the battle with Rahvin to help defeat Rand, AND the fact she knew who Asmodean was posing as.

Plus I think the person that would most surprise asmodean would be Lanfear

7

BKVMC: 2007-08-31

I think the killer was one of these 3 people.

1) Rand or more specifically LTT taking over for a time.

2) Mazrim Taim

3) a wise one or avienda acting on a "tip" from moiraine before she went into finland.

8

irerancincpkc: 2007-09-02

---3) a wise one or avienda acting on a "tip" from moiraine before she went into finland. ---

Moiraine said in her letter to Rand that she understood why he had to have Asmodean teach him, so she wouldn't have dropped a tip to anyone.

Personally, I think Lanfear did it.

9

Nostalgic Song: 2007-09-03

We all know that it had to have been a person that when Asmodean seen them he knew he was going to die. Rand, LTT taken over, Bashere, Aviendha, Mat,Mazrim Taim, and Moiraine would not have instilled this fear, (Asmo was properly disguised and he wouldn't expect Moiraine to know who he was.) He would brush off running into any "normal" character. Unless LTT suddenly appeared as himself, not Rand. Considering that Amso was a traitor of the Dark side, he was terrified of running into any of them. He knew that anybody on the Dark side would want to kill him ASAP.

These are the less likely killers, but possible.

~Slayer

~Sammeal

~Shaidar Haran

~Moghedien

~Mesanna

~Semirhage

~Padan Fain

More likely suspects:

~Graendal

~Lanfear

~Mazrim Taim undisguised as Demandred

I only put Graendel as a more likely suspect because she mentions Asmo quite a bit after his death. But she is still not a very likey candidate either. If Mazrim Taim is indeed Demandred, it's possible that someone else informed him that Nateal was Asmo. But, once again it's not an obvious conclusion and I doubt it.

Lanfear is a more likely killer, but I doubt that as well. I doubt Lanfear managed her way out of the Aelfinn-Eelfinn land just to kill Amso and go back. But he would be shocked to see her. I imagine there is a twist to that. Anyone who would've shocked Asmo to be there.

This question is mindboggoling, and RJ was crazy to think someone will just guess who it was easily. We'd have to guess that it was someone who had just died, or didn't have a major mention in the book. Thanks, RJ. You'd better tell us who it was, with an in-depth explanation in the next book...

10

lordoftwilight: 2007-09-04

It can't Be Avindha Because she was with Rand when Asmodian died. But it's a complete possibility that it was Rand on One of his many Pawer tripps.

11

BKVMC: 2007-09-04

the reason i Discount Lanfear as a suspect is because she isnt lanfear in body anymore shes cyndane asmodean wouldnt have said "You?NO! he would have said who are you ?NO! and whoever the killer was i dont get the impression he was scared of them when he said "you?" i get the feeling he was surprised not scared.

12

Nostalgic Song: 2007-09-05

I have changed my mind. I have concluded that the most likely/obvious killer is indeed Lanfear. For a long time I considered it to be Graendel, but we didn't know much about her then, and it wouldn't be an "obvious" conclusion. In the book, LoC, Lanfear had just "died", and wasn't Asmodean just thinking that he was safe from her now? I now truly believe that Aelfinn-land time flows faster then Randland time. I believe Lanfear was severed when she went through the doorway, and I believe she was killed by the Ael-Elfinn immediately because she is a Forsaken. She was brought back as Cyndane rather quickly by DO and the first thing she went to do was get her revenge on Asmo. (I'm sure Lanfear told DO that Amsodean is a traitor and was allowed to go to kill him.) She used the Mask of Mirrors so Amsodean would know who was killing him (Lanfear is an arrogant one. She likes having power to instill fear in people. She'd want Amso to know who was killing him.) Amsodean, feeling completely safe from her because she had just "died" a few days ago would've have been shocked, and knew he was about to die. I honestly believe all evidence ESPECIALLY RJ's "the killer should be obvious to the most casual reader" points to Lanfear. She's a Forsaken, people. How's and why's aren't as necessary for them since DO is bringing them back to life and everything. But if you have evidence to pove my theory wrong (I'm sure I've overlooked a few details) tell me. But I honestly believe that even if I'm off about how she did it, she still is the killer.

13

Nostalgic Song: 2007-09-05

I have changed my mind. I have concluded that the most likely/obvious killer is indeed Lanfear. For a long time I considered it to be Graendel, but we didn't know much about her then, and it wouldn't be an "obvious" conclusion. In the book, LoC, Lanfear had just "died", and wasn't Asmodean just thinking that he was safe from her now? I now truly believe that Aelfinn-land time flows faster then Randland time. I believe Lanfear was severed when she went through the doorway, and I believe she was killed by the Ael-Elfinn immediately because she is a Forsaken. She was brought back as Cyndane rather quickly by DO and the first thing she went to do was get her revenge on Asmo. (I'm sure Lanfear told DO that Amsodean is a traitor and was allowed to go to kill him.) She used the Mask of Mirrors so Amsodean would know who was killing him (Lanfear is an arrogant one. She likes having power to instill fear in people. She'd want Amso to know who was killing him.) Amsodean, feeling completely safe from her because she had just "died" a few days ago would've have been shocked, and knew he was about to die. I honestly believe all evidence ESPECIALLY RJ's "the killer should be obvious to the most casual reader" points to Lanfear. She's a Forsaken, people. How's and why's aren't as necessary for them since DO is bringing them back to life and everything. But if you have evidence to pove my theory wrong (I'm sure I've overlooked a few details) tell me. But I honestly believe that even if I'm off about how she did it, she still is the killer.

14

BKVMC: 2007-09-06

One thing about Rand that has always Bothered me a bit regarding Asmodean is that aside from Rand wondering where he is he seems to have forgotten about him altogether. rand doesnt know asmodean is dead in none of the books following FOH does it show a dialogue Directed at him saying asmodean is dead. it is VERY odd that Rand has so easily shrugged off a Forsaken ( even a weakened one) as if it was No big deal ! very Odd behavior.

15

Catalyst: 2007-09-07

Nostalgic Song. Let me quote you.

***Mazrim Taim is indeed Demandred, it's possible that someone else informed him that Nateal was Asmo.***

Jordan himself stated: Taim is Taim, and Demandred is Demandred, but Taim IS NOT Demandred. The author said it.

As to your suspects:

Luc Mantear/Isam Mandragoran, a.k.a. Slayer, Luc is Rand's uncle, and Isam is Lan's cousin. Just mentioning it. He is a possible killer, really, and still we don't know whether he met Asmodean before. And more besides, Slayer is really very dangerous, but he CANNOT CHANNEL!!! And Asmodean might have been limited by Lanfear, but HE, unlike Slayer, COULD channel - at least enough to kill him. For this alone I think that no one who cannot channel killed Asmodean.

Sammael is another matter, but in his POVs he never even thought that he killed Asmo, no matter how much he wanted to do it himself.

Shaidar Haran. Hmmmmmmm. That Myrdraal is quite a possible killer (quoting the Dark One: "MY HAND REACHES FAR."). But the first time he ever introduces himself to the Forsaken is LoC's prologue.

Moghedien.

During the duel between Rand and Rahvin she was collared by Nynaeve and later heavily dosed with forkroot at the time. She couldn't possibly have done it.

Mesaana.

She is a possible killer, but not likely. She could have masked her ability to channel, so Aviendha would not have felt her killing him.

I forgot one critical point: the killer knew EXACTLY where Asmo would be, waiting for him to enter, so he or she must have been sneaking around at the moment.

Semirhage... I don't think so.

Fain... he would not have been satisfied with Asmo. This close to Rand Fain would not have been able to stop himself trying to kill Rand, so I think he's off the list.

The greater suspects.

Graendal. She's a possibility. With A Memory Of Light we will see whether we were right about her.

Lanfear.

A lot of people believe that she escaped Finnland this quickly and gutted Asmo. Why, I will never know. She was later REINCARNATED as Cyndane. But at the time point of Asmo's demise she was not in present.

Taim. Using saidin he would not have escaped easily, because Rand was too close and would have been gutted like a turkey for the Thanksgiving Day, but using the True Power... I think he is the true suspect we are looking for.

So far I'm out. Call Horatio Caine to investigate or wait for AMoL. These are our two possibilities.

Catalyst out.

16

Sampson: 2007-09-14

Stop flogging the horse please. Everybody knows that there is NOT a right answer. We also know that RJ will not ever tell us what or how it happened or by whom. RJ just needed Asmo out of the picture. RJ never suspected that there would be websites deadicated to the WOT series or that people would dissect his books like we have.

I personally feel it was Mordin, even if he was supposedly being reincarnated at the time. We saw the same MO in the prologue of the first book when he confronted LTT.

If not Ishy, then I would have to go with SH. Again we hadn’t been introduced to SH before Asmo was killed.

I agree it would have to be somebody who could channel or negate Asmo’s ability to channel.

Stratigicly I would say Sammy would be a good choice. He already showed he liked to hit at Rands flanks when he was battling the Shaido. I could see Sammy sneaking in and taking care of business. But he wouldn’t have been able to anticipate that Asmo would enter that room.

So to clear it up in everybody’s mind. The real killer of Asmo is RJ. He didn’t think he had to tell the audience who the culprit was. He just needed Asmo dead. It is that simple. There is not any particular murderer out there. The story line needed Asmo killed, so he was killed. Who did it was not an important matter.

RJ will not ever tell us. Because he didn’t think it was important at the time. So now he can say whoever he wants. Everybody will say cool…but what about…? It is all a mute point. Asmo is dead. Nobody cares that he is out of the picture. The who will not ever effect the out come of the series or story line.

Just let it go….because no matter what the answer is, by now everybody has their own opinion and has made up their minds. If you’re a Grandel fan, Grandel did it. What if it was a Aiel dark friend that we have never met? You never know, and it doesn’t matter.

17

Fizz: 2007-09-17

You really think there's no answer to this riddle? That's crazy. Of course there is a definite answer. He didn't just knock off Asmodean because it was a cool thing to do... he had a reason to take Asmodean out of the picture, and you can bet that whoever it was that took him out had their own reasons for doing so. Sure, it's just a story; the events never really happened. But in RJ's mind they did really happen. You can bet that RJ, one of the greatest writers of our time, seeing how he can write a page and a half describing a chair, had the story fleshed out in his mind at least. Why Asmodean had to die and who killed him and why they had to kill him. There are answers to these questions, it wasn't just an arbitrary literary device. And this is why the horse is still being beaten.

18

willz: 2007-09-17

It is slayer. The evidence is evident in the whole scenario where he's going to kill Rand, but instead kills the elderly couple. He also is known to Asmodean, and his methods of quick, clean kills fit him perfectly. There is also the tower of Ghenji to take into account, as well: it seems to allow him to be in any point at any time in near-instantaneous transit - very close to how a gate works. It's either him or Fain, but fain wouldn't do that, because he loves torment. this death would not bring about misfortune for Rand, but rather would just inconvenience him a little bit.

My Money is on Isam (Slayer).

19

Sidhe: 2007-09-30

First, if what I'm going to state has already been said, I'm sorry too repeat it. I've tried to find everything I could on this specific theory, but there's so much, that I might have missed something.

I'm not going to add anything to who might have been the killer, because personally I'm not convinced of anyone yet, still toying around with different angles and all. I would like to say something about the method of killing however.

Overall it's been assumed that the Power was involved, in whatever way. That's very plausible indeed. Also Balefire has been mentioned, also plausible. But as far as can be read in the book, Asmo opens a small door leading from the palace gardens to an indoorsy place (he's not lost by the way, in a big place you always need to find your way somewhere, it's another way of saying walking or going to), gets killed right behind that small door, and in and slightly above the royal gardens there is a male channeler (Rand) and a female channeler (Aviendha). Sure, palace gardens are supposedly big, but both channelers are capable of sensing the Power to quite an extend, imo. On the other hand, there has just been a big battle, and they might both be too tired, although I'm not sure if tiredness makes you feel less in the way of Power. Could be True Power of course, but so far that hasn't really been mentioned yet. As for Balefire, yes, could be done (here disregarding the closebyness of channelers) with all kinds of Powers. But there's this tiny rule that forbids the use of it on both sides, and so far Rand has been the only one who didn't think about that rule in several instances. (Yes, Moiraine used it too, but in thin weaves in the direst circumstances, and she's vanished at this point in the story, so I'm discounting her).

Anyway, what I would like to add, is that there are ways to kill with a normal weapon, like a dagger, with it being fast and able to cut of sounds (meaning the lingering NO in the air) and also with hardly any blood at all, like on the clothes only, or 'only' heavy internal bleeding. Breaking someone's neck with brute force is also clean, fast and breaks off sounds. I'm sure there can be thought of more purely physical ways that might have done the job. Also, someone who's stealthy enough to get to that small door on the inside, can be inventive enough to retreat with the body disguised in/as a bag of goods with no one the wiser.

Actually, that points towards Slayer, I realize now. And he's also capable of using TAR without channeling...

Anyway, fill my theory with more holes, fire away. :)

20

BlindSeer: 2007-11-29

I I'm new here, so here's what I wonder, Yes the Ter'angreal melted when Lanfear and Moiraine went through it, but assuming they got to finnland alright wouldn't they have three requests. I always thought Lanfear could have somehow used one of them to get out and Kill Asmodean. Even if it was only temporarily.

21

Anubis: 2007-12-02

**Of course, I would love to believe Lanfear managed it somehow, but I think Jordan was trying to close that out by giving us the "holding" scenario...**

How do you take this as RJ trying to close it out? I took the quote as confirmation that Lanfear had done the dirty deed.

RJ knows that time flows differently in the Finn worlds. While his fans continually forget what this actually means, he does not. Lanfear being held only tells us that she was held and released; it quite literally tells us nothing else. It does not give any sort of a time frame, and in RJ's head would not even imply one.

The only reason I could see her being held as proof that she didn't do it is if you, for some reason, held the mistaken belief that time in the Finn's world is similar to time in the real world. I've heard the argument raised that because it took Rand a long time in the doorway it should take someone else a similar length of time, which is just pure garbage. RJ has explained how time flowing differently works within his universe in great detail, and it always takes longer is not it.

22

Ayla: 2008-01-31

This is a fantastic article on the subject:

Link

I, for one, am voting for Lanfear or Taim.

23

Dragon Tamer: 2008-02-05

no where does it say that Asno died by balefire, the DO just says he "died the final death". I took it to mean that because Asmo turned on him, the DO would not transigrate his soul into a new body and therefore he just dies, no coming back until he is spun out, and the DO believes he will win the final battle.

it really just makes sense that it would be a simple explanation like slayer who could travel unseen and (as I have mentioned somewhere else) also acts as a hitman for the dark. perfectly logical choice.

24

Elder Haman: 2008-02-19

Exactly how do you exclude Graendal from the final list of suspects?

25

Spear Dancer: 2008-03-30

This may have been mentioned, but I didn't see it. I think it's being overlooked. I think Lanfear did it.

Asmodean wouldn't expect her, as she went through the doorway, so that counts for his suprise. But that's the key to the whole argument, think about the doorway she went through. All she had to do is say "I want to Kill Asmodean" and bam, there she is, she kills Asmo, and bam she's back in finnland.

This fits all the critera i've seen. We have all the information needed, Asmo would be suprised as he knew she went through the door, it's kinda blatently obivous if you think about it.

I'm probably wrong, but maybe...

26

jeandemarsii: 2008-04-13

I don't agree with that myself. Why would Lanfear want to kill Asmodean when she was the one who set him up to go over to the light in the first place. Personally, I think it was a gholam. Asmodean probably knew them all on sight and there was nothing he could have done to defend himself. Even if it was someone else he could have channeled, and Rand would have felt it in a instant. And as to why he was not put back into a new body, the Dark One simply decided that Asmodean didn't deserve a second chance and that he had no more use for the man.

27

JakOShadows: 2008-04-18

jeandemarsii:

Lanfear has plenty of motive. Remember what Asmo said - Lanfear just wanted Rand to learn enough so that he could be useful to her, but she could still overpower him. And when he could match her power at the docks, she felt that she needed to kill Asmo. And besides, i think even if Asmo had died tSR, she wouldn't have been upset. Because Asmo was dispensible in her mind, at least to some degree. So she has no personal attachment to him being alive. In this respect, she doesn't even require a strong motive.

28

Fourth Age Historian: 2008-08-20

I don't know about others, but I exclude Graendal on obviosity. We sure didn't know a darn thing about her, at that point in the story.

Solely on obviosity Lanfear is the best...she SAID she was going to kill Asmo, Asmo fears the other Forsaken but especially Lanfear, giving the best "you, no!" explanation and several pieces of the nature of finnland are unrevealed, as yet. MY money s still on her, though I doubt the bet wil ever be resolved.

29

terez: 2008-09-09

Rand and Fain have both been disqualified by RJ, and Aviendha was NOT with Rand when Asmodean was killed.

30

Fourth Age Historian: 2008-09-09

Actually, I retract part of what I said. I just reread TSR and TFoH, and Graendal isn't as "unobvious" as I thought. She and Sammael are the only two of the plotters not dead at the time. That said, I still think Lanfear is *more* obvious. Although, if RJ's definition of obvious was slightly different, Graendal makes a lot more sense than I'd ever thought before. I don't really thank Aviendha passes the obviosity test; we don't know if she knew about Nateal (but she could've seen it in Rhuidean), and we don't have much reason to believe Asmo would react that way to her. Could be, but not obvious.

Anyway, Graendal could've seemed obvious in RJ's book, because it's easy to forget that we don't have the author's perspective on his characters. There is motivation, opportunity, and knowledge on her part.

31

RandoftheHandless: 2010-05-13

I've got no evidence to support this, it was just an interesting thought I had. Could it have been the Gholam? I can't remember if he'd been introduced up to this point or not. I'm leaning towards not. Just thought I'd put it out there, in case anyone knows more about it.