Tamyrlin: 2005-06-07

I see you have brushed off the dust, and come back to the theory-making fold (maybe I should too...). I like it SBX. It is an interesting idea that Jordan might foreshadow specific events we will never see, such as this one with Egwene. However, I like the combination you have made between the Horn, and this dream Egwene has. While we could extrapolate a symbolic meaning from the dream regarding the clouds, we know that the Horn will be at the Last Battle, and I like the more literal translation that you have suggested; Egwene will be saved by a Hero of the Horn called forth, possibly during the Last Battle.

Callandor: 2005-06-07

**The last possibility,(and roughly my point) is that there is going to be a Second War of the Power, similar to the War of the Power that was fought in Age of Legends, and [b]we're not going to get to see it[/b]. RJ has told us that not everything is going to be wrapped up in the series, but I think just about everyone assumed that it would be some relatively minor things considering the scope of the series.**

No, it is not an assumption --
**Q: You've said before that you know where this series is going to end.

A: I've known the last scene of the last book for 15 years. I could have written it easily 15 years ago, and it would be only changes in the wording, not in what happens, from that to now.

Q: So will the male-female duality be resolved? Or is this a "read and find-out" question?

A: Read and find out. What I consider the major story lines will be resolved. There will be a number of minor story lines that will not be resolved, for the simple reason that there is no point to any real world where everything is resolved. That's always something that has irritated me about some novels--that you reach a point at the end of the book, and everyone's problems have now been solved, and all of the world's problems have been solved. I get the feeling I could put these characters and this world on a shelf and put a bell jar over them and go away. There's nothing left there alive.

That's the way it's going to be. I even intend to set a small hook in the last scene.

Comment: Wow... you're going to drive people crazy!

A: I know, I know. I've been thinking about getting some of those Groucho glasses with the mustache.**

Of course the end won't be the ultimate end with all story lines wrapped up -- but a second war of the Power has, technically, already been happening, and for RJ to leave that out, would be like leaving out half the novels or telling only half the story.

Don't see it happening.

The Amaterasu link is nice, but unless the Hero was ripped out by Nynaeve (and somehow overcoming the problems of 1. Knowledge; 2. the Hero wouldn't have the Seanchan culture and accent behind them then), there is no way that she will help Egwene, unless she is called by the Horn of Valere to do it.

Or unless the dream Egwene had is of some far distant event she needs to be saved from, for some reason mentioned in the books with the issues needed to be solved now.

Anubis: 2005-06-07

**The Amaterasu link is nice, but unless the Hero was ripped out by Nynaeve (and somehow overcoming the problems of 1. Knowledge;**

Since when has lack of knowledge ever stopped Nynaeve?

Callandor: 2005-06-07

**Since when has lack of knowledge ever stopped Nynaeve?**

When she was shielded by Siuan?

Oh, and I forgot to mention that what Moghedien did, was most likely a combination of the One Power knowledge as well as tel'aran'rhiod ability. Nynaeve is down two factors, with no apparent means of gaining either.

ShadowbaneX: 2005-06-07

I wouldn't really say that a second War of the Power has started Callandor. The opening phases might have begun, but to compare it to world war two, it's only 1941. Russia and Brittain are hard pressed, but the the US still hasn't entered the war.

RJ said in that very interview that you posted that the major story lines will be resolved and some minor ones will be unresolved. When I said assumed, I meant that most people probably thought that it was very minor affairs, who hooks up with whom, who becomes king or queen of whichever nation, that sort of minor thing. I'm suggesting that the minor plot lines, might not be minor events. The story is about Rand and ultimately the resealing of the Bore. That is a major story line. So far the actually war between the Light and Shadow is essentially a minor story line and it very well might not be resolved by the end of the series...and you're right. It would only be half the story. Then again Lucas was supposedly finished with the Star Wars trilogy in '83.

How do we know that there's "no way that she [the woman of Egwene's dream] will help Egwene"? We know that the Seanchan are very conscious of signs of portents. It is possible that this woman is told that she will one day be in a position to rescue someone. Or if this is the future, perhaps Seanchan society will have changed. Or perhaps she's an outcast from her society because she simply believes differently. There are many possible cases that spring to mind where a Seanchan woman would come to her aid. As for the Horn, it never specifically states that the Horn is going to be at the Last Battle. Granted, many characters assume it's supposed to be there, but whenever Prophecy is quoted it only says that it's going to be found before Tarmon Gai'don, not that it's going to be used there.

Narianna: 2005-06-08

very good research especially connecting the horn and the dream of egwene.in the past people have speculated that the women in the dreams might be alivia or egeanin but the sword issue was never settled .

however regarding my opininon on the theory,

i believe that it is more likely that egwene would be saved by a hero summoned from the horn (the walking on the clouds bit).

however the true dream is not necessary a literal viewing (for eg egwene's dream of the seanchan attack on the white tower).there was a bit of metaphorism(?) in it.only when egwene wakes up and recounts the meaning of the dream, we get the true message.now IIRC after waking from this dream, egwene ponders that no way she would be saved by a SEANCHAN. does this fixes that egwene will be saved by a specific seanchan character and not a hero.

Dezza: 2005-06-08

I don't know that all the heros were there. Who is to say that one of them was not reborn before this battle happened. And is now coming into adulthood, waiting for their time.

Amaresu could be out there in Randland already.

It is just a little thought, the heros never think of themselves as heros at the time. They are people with a job to do and they do it.

Callandor: 2005-06-08

** I'm suggesting that the minor plot lines, might not be minor events. The story is about Rand and ultimately the resealing of the Bore. That is a major story line. So far the actually war between the Light and Shadow is essentially a minor story line and it very well might not be resolved by the end of the series...and you're right. It would only be half the story. Then again Lucas was supposedly finished with the Star Wars trilogy in '83.**

Sorry, but the story being just about Rand sealing the Bore is not valid. That ~is~ the battle between the Light and the Shadow. But of course that will not end with the end of the series -- that will continue on forever because the Dark One cannot be destroyed.

**How do we know that there's "no way that she [the woman of Egwene's dream] will help Egwene"?**

I said this because, unless it's either by being ripped out -- right now a seemingly impossiblity for anyone in the world save Moghedien -- or is summoned by the Horn to help Egwene, or that the event is so far down the line that she would have time to be spun out, grow up, and then help Egwene -- then there is no way that she would be present ~to~ help Egwene.

And if it is so far down the line for such a seemingly big event, when we know that Egwene is ~already~ in trouble and we are pretty dang sure that the Seanchan will be getting involved in the same area as where she is, why are we learning about it? The things about the future that are that far down the line have all been general things: "the guardians balance the servants", "the world not done with battle", etc. So why are we getting something that in comparison to those is specific?

**There are many possible cases that spring to mind where a Seanchan woman would come to her aid.**

All good, great, and wonderful, but it is beside the point. The point is the timing. Unless this dream does not represent the very near future (if it happens at all), there is almost no chance that it will occur inside the series.

Tristin: 2005-06-08

Haha. So WW2 didn't really start until the US joined hmmm...everything else was just preamble. Thanks for the history lesson :p.

Bane Darkwulf: 2005-06-08

I think that maybe Shivan and Calian are Elaynes children. Think about it, what would be wierder than Elayne giving birth to Rand's children , and them being Heros of the Horn?

Then there is Avi and Min, how longdo you think before they get preggers?? It really would not surprise me if all the Heros born in the next 5-10 years were all Mat, Perrin, and Rand's kids. Infact, what if Amaresu is reborn as Mat's daughter by Tuon? This is a very likely outcome.

Gareth: 2005-06-08

I like your Amaterasu thing SBX but about Egwene's dream, I'm not sure.

As you noticed, the important part of the dream seems to be the sword (and not the woman). To me, it could be a symbol for the Seanchan armies, lead by a woman (Tuon or Suroth). And when I think about the coming attack of Tar Valon by the Seachan, while Egwene is imprisonned in the Tower, I can't help myself thinking that it is this attack that will save, involuntarily, egwene's neck.

I'm pretty sure there was a theory about it but since, the database seems to be wiped out ...

a dragonburned fool: 2005-06-08

The Amaterasu connection is interesting, but it doesn't exclude the possibility that the hero archetype of Amaterasu and the Hero Amaresu are two different persons. We already have such case withe the Heores Hawkwing and LTT: The High King Artur is too much close to King Artur of the Arthurian legend in name and some other traits, but actually Rand al'Thor shows much more Arthurian traits than Artur Hawkwing. So who is the true archetype of King Arthur: Artur Hawkwing or Rand al'Thor? In the same sense Amaterasu may be not Amaresu, but another Hero, maybe currently living one.

ShadowbaneX: 2005-06-08

Narianna: Egwene's biased against the Seanchan. Her experience as damane deeply effected her and has tainted her entire view of the Seanchan. She has stereotyped the entire culture. She thinks that none of them will help her, but that doesn't mean it's true.

Dezza: actually it is impossible for Amaresu to be reborn. She was at Falme. We know from the whole Olver not being Gaidal Cain thing that even if she were immediatly reborn after the events at Falme it's highly unlikely that's she be any older than a toddler. Time moves differently between TAR and the Real World, but not that differently.

Callandor: About the battle, see what I say to Tristin below. About the rest. I'm really beginning to wonder about you Callandor. I'm beginning to wonder about you. Did you read all of my theory or just skim it? The fact that it'd be impossible for her to be around is precisely my point. Unless you're trying to argue something else...

Tristin: I'm a Canadian history student with an interest in military history, particularly world war 2. I'm well aware of the B.E.F. and Dunkirk, Dieppe, and the Battle of Britain, etc. The thing is those were relatively isolated incidents. Unlike the campaigns of 44-45 which were more or less constant, the things I mentioned above were fairly isolated incidents, like the Battle of Tarwin's Gap, etc. The WoT equivalent to D-Day, Operation Market Garden, the Battle of the Bluge and Operation Varsity have yet to happen. That was the point I was trying to make and the point much earlier is that we're not going to get to see all of these. We might see the equivalent of D-Day, but the war might still well be carrying on once Rand and the DO have it out. Just as Latra Prosae Decume earned her nickname 'Shadar Nor' after Lews Therin was gone.

Bane: I considered that Bane but I didn't include it. I consider trying to match up all the known notable characters of old with the major (or even minor) character's currently alive as flimsy at best. Even in my own link is fairly weak...to attempt to stretch it further to an actual character is to make it even weaker.

Gareth: That's another possible explaination, but what about the description of the woman coming down the hill. Those actions seem to be significant. I suppose it could mean that the Seanchan are going to come from Dragonmount. Truth be told I had considered something like this myself years ago. It just didn't seem to feel quite right though. Why would the Seanchan armies be represented by a woman? Martial matters are generally stereo-typed by the masculin.

dbf: that's also logical. However, RJ seems to take bits and peices of several archetypes and mixing and matching them, to create his characters. It makes me want to ask RJ a question: "at the time of the sounding of the Horn of Valere in the Great Hunt, how many Heroes of the Horn were spun out?"

Tam: any chance we can get a bigger "Write Your Response" window? 5 lines is a little small.

Callandor: 2005-06-08

**Callandor: About the battle, see what I say to Tristin below. About the rest. I'm really beginning to wonder about you Callandor. I'm beginning to wonder about you. Did you read all of my theory or just skim it? The fact that it'd be impossible for her to be around is precisely my point. Unless you're trying to argue something else...**

Yes, SBX, thanks for the patronizing as well. Yes, I did indeed read your theory. I did indeed also read your reply on the message board containing the same idea.

And, yes indeed, I still disagree. If you want me to be blunt, this is nothing more than a nice connection being made, and a prediction. But that's my blunt opinion.

**That was the point I was trying to make and the point much earlier is that we're not going to get to see all of these.**

Based on what?

**We might see the equivalent of D-Day, but the war might still well be carrying on once Rand and the DO have it out. Just as Latra Prosae Decume earned her nickname 'Shadar Nor' after Lews Therin was gone.**

Of course the battle between the Light and Shadow won't end right away -- it never does, it never truely ends. Wars will always continue.

brother of Battles: 2005-06-08

I am not sure about this one. I always took into account Egwene's dream as meaning something about her being in danger and the only way she can get out of it is if she learns to trust people her nature/expirence wouldn't let her trust.

Why else would the woman say, "We can reach the top together." I also think the part where she walks down the face of the mountain is in reference/proof to what she said to Egwene. "We can reach the top TOGETHER." What she said to Egwene is way more important then how she appeared to Egwene.

I think the sword being the only thing solid about her is to say the woman will be a direct fighter, not an indirect fighter like the AS.

Plus, if the woman is Amaresu ripped out of the pattern, why would she come and help Egwene? How would she even know who Egwene is?

TheJester: 2005-06-08

I read your post on your opinion of British History, and whilst I admit I am biased being Scottish but your analogy is flawed on one point:

The Battle of Britain.

Constant raids on the airforce bases (military targets), that were then changed for civilian and industrial sites. This had been going on for quite some time, and yes Britain nearly lost that battle if not for RADAR.

ShadowbaneX: 2005-06-08

we're getting a little far afield here on the mere point of a technicallity.

The entire reason is to convey a point or idea by linking it to something similar, not exact. The idea is the type of warfare. Between 39-44 most of the war on the Western European front was raids, be it bombing, commando or otherwise. The Shadow has mainly been raiding as well, Edmon's Field (both in tEotW and tSR), the Stone of Tear, the Waste, Caemlyn (tFoH), etc. Those were small armies quietly moving around and striking certain locations. The massive deployement of forces covering entire countries and brutal battles fought with changing lines has occured yet. That's the point I'm trying to make.

ShadowbaneX: 2005-06-08

Blunt is fine Callandor. My sister is the one that got the tact and the social graces, not me.

I don't quite understand what your other posts were trying to say though. You seemed to be arguing with me by using the very points I was using to make the same arguements I was making.

Ok, so you disagree, but what do you disagree with? From what you've saying it's the whole Nynaeve ripping them out, right?

If that's what you're trying to do, then great, because I disagree with it as well. I was using that as a counter-example.

As for it being a nice connection and a prediction, well a prediction with research to back it up is generally called a theory.

Jalwin Moerad: 2005-06-08

By the by, I know a lot of you get stuck up on these "hero of the horn" type theories explaining 'where the time went.' I want to propose a solution that Jordan has already suggested: Vacoules (spelling incorrect; my apologies). If someone sufficiently clever were to take a hero, place them in an accelerated vacoule, and leave them there, they could actually manage to make the last battle. Unlikely, but an interesting thought anyway.

JakOShadows: 2005-06-08

brother of battles: I like your interpretation of the dream the best. Because I do believe that if Egwene doesn't unite with the Seanchan for the last battle, they will be stalemated with them and won't be able to fight the last battle. Rather, I think Rand will force them to make that alliance, but she will need to learn to deal with her past.

Narianna: 2005-06-09

in the light of the KoD prologue, is it possible that an alliance of seanchan and the WT (as suggested above) is possible?

most of the people in the randland seems to regard seanchan As an evil equal to that of the DO?(raven and the serpent quote of byar)

in this context is it possible that egwene will survive only if she is able to convince the WT (biggest enemies of seanchan) to ally with the seanchan?

ilgross: 2005-06-09

I haven't read the KoD prolouge, but I doubt the WT and the Seachan will ever ally. They are ideological opponents.

Their society is based on the slavement of channelers, so I doubt a group of channelers are going to be all that friendly.

The only possible situation I can see would be if they were fighting against the DO. Kinda like the Capitalists and Communisists allying to fight the Nazi's.

Anubis: 2005-06-09

Raven = Seanchan, Serpent = Aes Sedai.

Plz give the quote if your going to mention it.

Narianna: 2005-06-09

sorry, anubis. i will take care of it next time onwards and thanks for correcting me .

raven also stands for the shadow.

so it might be possible that whitecloaks may be forced to ally with the seanchan to fight the shadow.

and i believe that by the end of the series seanchan attitude towards channelers will transform. there are many hints (tuon being able to channel and the knowledge that suldam can also be taught to channel) that ultimately in the post Tarmon Gaidon world white tower and seanchan will be opponents not ideologically, but as a matter of conquest.

the AS will oppose the conquest of randland by the seanchan to preserver their preeminence in the society.

Narianna: 2005-06-09

here is the quote i was looking for

"Then the woman struck back at her, and she suffered her second shock. She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible; no woman could be stronger. She must have an angreal, too. Shock lasted only the time it took her to slice the other woman's flows. She did not know how to reverse them. Maybe that would be enough advantage. She would see Lews Therin die! The taller woman jerked as her cut flows snapped back into her, but even as she shifted her feet with the blow, she channeled again. Snarling, Cyndane fought back, and the earth heaved beneath their feet. She would see him die! She would."

Narianna: 2005-06-09

oops sorry .

i got the quote for a different theory but by mistake pasted it in this theory reply.

Tanis: 2005-06-09

** I haven't read the KoD prolouge, but I doubt the WT and the Seachan will ever ally. They are ideological opponents.

Their society is based on the slavement of channelers, so I doubt a group of channelers are going to be all that friendly.**

Probably off the point but surely one interpretation of what the white tower do is exactly that. Wilders are frowned upon, oaths are sworn, rules are made, you girls with the talent are treated no better than most damane. And since it has become fairly clear that the sul'dam also have 'the spark' I wouldn't say their controlling of the damane is a huge ideological jump from the senior Aes Sedai's controlling of the rest. So perhaps there isn't such a great rift to overcome.....

ShadowbaneX: 2005-06-09

Tanis: say what? Yeah, the girls don't have much choice at the beginning, but they can eventually chose to leave...or at the least refuse the test. They are still treated as human. The damane are sub-human in the Seanchan eyes, they are pets at best. I think you need to look at this a little more closely. Also the sul'dam don't have the spark. Elayne, Egwene and Nynaeve have the spark. They will have channeled without training. This is what the damane are. The sul'dam are those that don't have the spark, but still have the ability.

Callandor: 2005-06-09

**in the light of the KoD prologue, is it possible that an alliance of seanchan and the WT (as suggested above) is possible?**

It was before the prologue came out -- the problem is that the Seanchan have been heavily hinted at for ~attacking~ the White TOwer first.

**Probably off the point but surely one interpretation of what the white tower do is exactly that. Wilders are frowned upon, oaths are sworn, rules are made, you girls with the talent are treated no better than most damane. And since it has become fairly clear that the sul'dam also have 'the spark' I wouldn't say their controlling of the damane is a huge ideological jump from the senior Aes Sedai's controlling of the rest. So perhaps there isn't such a great rift to overcome.....**

White Tower will put you out of the Tower once you learn enough not to kill yourself if you cannot become an Aes Sedai, or if you fail in the tests, or for a multitude of reasons.

The Seanchan ~never~ let go of their channelers. It's complete slavery.

Being Aes Sedai is not.

free will: 2005-06-09

White Tower will put you out of the Tower once you learn enough not to kill yourself if you cannot become an Aes Sedai, or if you fail in the tests, or for a multitude of reasons.

The Seanchan ~never~ let go of their channelers. It's complete slavery.

Being Aes Sedai is not.

Callandor, I personally don't think that the WT and the Ravens will come to much of an agreement to each move closer to the other. But I object to you mischaracterizing the theories of others just to have straw men to attack. No one claimed that AS and Sul'dam treated channelers the same, that's your straw man that you attack to pretend to contribute to this theory. No one except you claimed that anyone said that The Seanchan would let go of their channellers.

The theory proposed was that Sul'dam and AS aren't so different, in that they can channell but prefer to boss around others that can channell. That common purpose might allow a cultural integration of letting people be bossy to each other. I don't think that will happen. Partly because the AS already use strength in the power, so any other method of determining bossiness won't be pproved by those with all the bossiness in the AS. It would be like a redoing the electoral college to be more fair, those that it helps now will simply not agree to change it. So Sul'dam won't want to be bossed about for not being strong, and an AS won't want to be bossed around by a sul'dam that is weaker than her. That's why it won't happen in my opinion.

brother of Battles: 2005-06-09

There was another dream that Egwene had that hints at the White Tower being attacked by the Seanchan. I don't have the exact quote, but the dream was about a single candle on a pedestal and a raven comming out of no where and knocking the candle, and she knew it would be dire if the flame were to go out. I will look for the quote.

Anubis: 2005-06-09

Tanis, you overlook the fact that Seanchan are genuinely afraid of Aes Sedai. Even Tuon believes that Aes Sedai killed Tylin. In the Seanchan lands those calling themselves Aes Sedai killed at will and set up their own kingdoms, creating chaos. The chaos did not end untill the Aes Sedai were collered, hence the belief that all channelers must be collered to be safe.

Callandor: 2005-06-09

**Callandor, I personally don't think that the WT and the Ravens will come to much of an agreement to each move closer to the other. But I object to you mischaracterizing the theories of others just to have straw men to attack. No one claimed that AS and Sul'dam treated channelers the same, that's your straw man that you attack to pretend to contribute to this theory. No one except you claimed that anyone said that The Seanchan would let go of their channellers.**

free will, I tolerated your ignoring of facts on other threads before, but telling me what I am doing, when I know very well what I am doing -- is just stupid.

ilgross said:

**Their society is based on the slavement of channelers, so I doubt a group of channelers are going to be all that friendly.**

To which Tanis said:

**Probably off the point but surely one interpretation of what the white tower do is exactly that.**

To which the only implication to draw is that the Aes Sedai are slavers. Sorry, that's a blatant misconception, and SBX and I both saw the need to comment on it.

And, maybe, if you had bothered to read my previous replies, you might see that I added more to the discussion here, than simply say that Aes Sedaid and Seanchan are different.

**The theory proposed was that Sul'dam and AS aren't so different, in that they can channell but prefer to boss around others that can channell.**

And that is what needs to be clarified:

1. No, the theory is about how the series ends and is submitted by SBX. I don't think he even mentions the word Aes Sedai, Seanchan, and channeler in the same sentence throughout his proposal. That part was in a reply.

2. No, the idea is flawed. Why? The Seanchan ensalve; they do not "boss around." Aes Sedai is a willing future for only the truely dedicated -- if a channeler is found, and does not wish to continue to be Aes Sedai, they can leave once their training is enough not to harm themselves or others. Seanchan make it so that once you're found -- you never leave. Channelers are not to be trusted. Unless they are leashed.

Tristin: 2005-06-10

I have an extremely bad feeling that Rand is going to die quite literally at some point, most likely whilst binding the Dark One back in his prison. At the same time the last battle will be raging or at least everyone will be in a stand off and we are going to be left having to imagine all the action in our heads cause book 12 is going to end. The more I think about what all has to happen in two books the more it seems impossible unless her seriously rushes and keeps to mostly Taveren POV's.

Narianna: 2005-06-10

yes tristin i agree with your idea.

i think at best we will get the story view of only rand's sealing the bore .

the last battle will be rounded off;perhaps in a poem like the end ofCot but only bigger.

ShadowbaneX: 2005-06-10

what do you mean you like "Tristin's" idea? The entire idea behind this theory is exactly that, that we won't be seeing 2nd War of the Power.

"Tristin's" idea indeed.

Tristin: 2005-06-10

create a faction if you haven't already. :p

JakOShadows: 2005-06-10

Tristin: RJ did say that most of the big threads will be conclude or reach some sort of resolution, so I don't think he'll leave out Perrin and Mat in the LB, and he will show some of the second war for power. Now granted it my only be in an epilogue or something like that, but it won't be like your typical foretelling at the end of the book. It should be fairly indepth or I would be disappointed.

JakOShadows: 2005-06-10

Tanis: I know everyone has already said this a lot, but the Seanchan are quite ideologically different from the AS. Unless they come to some realization that they are wrong in enslaving people that can channel, they will never come to complete terms with the AS. But I do think they will be forced to by Rand to fight along AS in the LB, but after that's over and Rand dies there will be nothing to keep them from fighting.

raistlin: 2005-06-15

First of all nice theory SBX- its actually induced me to move my fingers and make a post LOL.

i have to agree with JakOShadows on his saying that other events will not just be covered in a poem.

RJ has spent too much time building up the importance of the wolves and their part to play with perrin.

Also i can see mat leading the seanchan armies if not leading the alliance of light itself- there is no way RJ would focus all of his attention on rand alone- all he has to do is die in the end (joke).

Its the 'barb' RJ mentions that will occur at the end which has me pondering......

WCDWarder: 2005-06-15

It's been a while since I posted with my two cents, but here it goes:

The theory is interesting, but I am not sure after reading it and all of the replies what the theory is. SBX, are you saying that Amaresu will be the one to help Egwene? If so, did you ever explain how you believe it happened? Was she spun out long ago? If so, how did she appear when called by the Horn? It sounds to me that you believe she wasn't torn from T'A'R, so we can discount that as your theory. And if she was or will be, there really has been no hint that it has happened or will happen. I, for one, agree with many of the others that Egwene has to face her hate and fear of the Seanchan and join forces with them if she is to survive.

As to why the person with the sword offering help is a woman, well the Seanchan are a matriarchal society, with women often leading the army. So it makes sense that they be represented by a woman.

Maybe your real point is in the last paragraph. If so, I understand it to be that the major battle of the new war will be fought in the series, with the later issues to be cleaned up in our imaginations. If that is your theory, then I suspect (and hope) that you are wrong. Certainly there will be small unresolved issues like will the Blight disappear and Malkier return? How will Rand juggle 3 wives (if he survives)? What happens to Matt and Tuon? Etc. But if RJ doesn't clean up the Last Battle and give some closure to it, then what were we reading for? The series is not about Rand so much as it is about the struggle to defeat the Dark One, either in this age or forever. (I believe it is just to end this age.) Rand is obviously the major player, but too much time has been devoted to everyone else to say that the whole series is devoted to Rand's story.

Caramoor: 2005-06-16

I think the story will end with the breaking of the wheel or at least the end of the cycle of time anyway.

-To live he must die.-

Rand will be faced with the choice of continuing the cycle of time or stopping it. If he chooses to maintain the cycle, he will die and be reborn. If he chooses to stop the cycle, he will live for a time after the last battle, but will never be born again. I think he will choose to end the cycle and send the world into the great unknown of linear history. Jordan said in an interview that the idea of linear time was one of the greatest things the ancient Greeks gave to the world. I think it likely that he will incorporate that philosophy into his series, otherwise, why mention it? I can imagine what the catch he mentioned will be at the end of the series. He will leave hints that time is again repeating itself. So the debate will go on whether the world is still running on cyclical time or linear. This also explains why there are no prophecies of the fourth age, only histories telling of events in the third.

free will: 2005-06-16

2. No, the idea is flawed. Why? The Seanchan ensalve; they do not "boss around."

We disagree. The Seanchan expect lifelong binding, so does the Tower. Sul'dam boss around, so do AS. The similarities are strong. Basically you find enslavement different than binding, but that would only be true if the bound were free to leave or disassociate. Freedom of disassociation is the fundamental freedom from which all others (if any) follow.

Aes Sedai is a willing future for only the truely dedicated -

Really? What evidence do you have. Seems to me more like a future for those deemed worthy by the current AS.

- if a channeler is found, and does not wish to continue to be Aes Sedai, they can leave once their training is enough not to harm themselves or others.

Really? What about the BWB saying otherwise. What about Lideine Rajon and Mailaine Harvole? They were trained enough to not harm themselves or harm others from a lack of control of the One Power. They were not free to not be bound to the Tower. The choices they were given were to kneel before the Amyrlin, be stilled, or to die. That doesn't seem at all like freedom.

Seanchan make it so that once you're found -- you never leave. Channelers are not to be trusted. Unless they are leashed.

Again, textual evidence from the BWB claims that it isn't so different for the WT. The biggest difference is that the WT only demands that channelers kneel to the Amyrlin if they have a certain amount of strength, and sul'dam expect subjugation from channelers of any level of strength. That's the big difference. Do you really have any contextual evidence of a single example of a strong woman that was allowed to leave the Tower, that wasn't kept track of, followed, watched, and therefore basically had her channeling monitored by the WT? A single example Callandor, do you have textual evidence?

ShadowbaneX: 2005-06-17

The theory is essentially in the last paragraph, that the series will end and most of the big battles will remain unsolved. The rest is just the thought processes and logic that it took me to get to that point.

As for it being some random female Seanchan noble, well, that doesn't make sense. Why then is the face blurred, but the sword clear? Why is she able to charge down a rock face that Egwene has trouble climbing? etc. From the, albeit vague, discription we get it sounds a hell of alot like a Hero of the Horn to me.

Amaresu will be there to help Egwene, but since we saw her at the end of tGH we know that if she has been spun out she is at most a child.

The ripping out was a counter-point. Another solution to the problem, but a highly unlikely one.

To be honest I'd almost prefer that the bulk of the problems remain unsolved. For one, it'd be different. Not everything has closure. The Chosen-One will make his choice and the Wheel will continue to turn, has it always has and as it always will.

Yaga Shura: 2005-06-17

"Really? What evidence do you have. Seems to me more like a future for those deemed worthy by the current AS."

Well, i know I didn't make the original statement, but remember when Nynaeve was about to take her accepted test and Sheriam tells her that if she starts then decides she can't go on, she will be put out of the Tower for ever with enough silver to last her for one year. That's a get out clause no marath'damane ever got.

Callandor: 2005-06-17

**We disagree. The Seanchan expect lifelong binding, so does the Tower. Sul'dam boss around, so do AS. The similarities are strong. Basically you find enslavement different than binding, but that would only be true if the bound were free to leave or disassociate. Freedom of disassociation is the fundamental freedom from which all others (if any) follow.**

You can disagree all you want, it doesn't change the simple fact:

The Seanchan enslave channelers -- the White Tower allows you to leave if you do not wish to continue. If you don't wish to continue in Seanchan -- you're crap out of luck.

**Really? What evidence do you have. Seems to me more like a future for those deemed worthy by the current AS.**

Maybe, you know, all those places where people can simply refuse to go further in training? Or fail out. You know, becoming Accepted. They allow you to try it three times -- can't do it then, you're gone. You accept and then can't continue -- you're gone. Then becoming an Aes Sedai. You can't continue -- you're gone. Or how about even when you are an Aes Sedai, you can retire off entirely.

It's a winnowing process to get the only truely dedicated people who want to be Aes Sedai. The Seanchan have no such means of this at all or anything similar. You want out of being a damane -- you pray to be killed, since you can't do it yourself.

**Really? What about the BWB saying otherwise. What about Lideine Rajon and Mailaine Harvole? They were trained enough to not harm themselves or harm others from a lack of control of the One Power. They were not free to not be bound to the Tower. The choices they were given were to kneel before the Amyrlin, be stilled, or to die. That doesn't seem at all like freedom.**

What, you're saying that because Aes Sedai follow rules, that they are slavers? You have one loose definition.

**Again, textual evidence from the BWB claims that it isn't so different for the WT. The biggest difference is that the WT only demands that channelers kneel to the Amyrlin if they have a certain amount of strength, and sul'dam expect subjugation from channelers of any level of strength. That's the big difference. Do you really have any contextual evidence of a single example of a strong woman that was allowed to leave the Tower, that wasn't kept track of, followed, watched, and therefore basically had her channeling monitored by the WT? A single example Callandor, do you have textual evidence?**

I really don't see the need to at all -- all my examples are obvious ones. This should be one fact, you know like Rand being the Dragon Reborn kinda stuff, that is obvious to even you.

But if you want examples, how about a whole class of them? The Kin. They are made up of nothing but Tower rejects and run aways. Specific exmaples? Sure. Reanne Corly herself. She is strong enough to make a gateway (placing her as strong if not stronger than Moiraine, Elaida, and Siuan pre-stilling) -- kicked out of the Tower. Why?

**TITLE: Crown of Swords, CHAPTER: 24 - The Kin

"They did not perspire," Berowin whispered at her shoulder. "Yes?" She would have arranged for the news to reach the Tarasin Place in the next hour if she had not given her word. And if not for the danger. Fear bubbled in her middle, the same panic that had overtaken her after one passage through the silver arches when she went to test for Accepted. Just as she had every time it had stirred in the years since, she took a fresh grip on herself; in truth, she did not realize that the fear she might run screaming again had long since conquered any possibility that she would. She prayed that those girls would abandon their insanity."

Because she paniced after agreeing to continue through her test. She failed. She was kicked out of the Tower for it. And I guess you are going to say that she was "watched and followed" all these years... you know when the Kin have all but been forgotten.

How about Else Grinwell?

**TITLE: Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 29 - A Trap To Spring

"I sent no message, Daughter. The things Liandrin and the others left were searched thoroughly, and burned after nothing was found. No one would use Black Ajah leavings. As for Else Grinwell . . . . I remember the girl. She could have learned, had she applied herself, but all she wanted was to smile at the men at the Warders' practice yard. Else Grinwell was put on a trading vessel and sent back to her mother ten days ago."

But I guess she is being watched as astutely as possible, to make sure she can be trusted.

Ashaman Thunder Leader: 2005-06-18

I'd just like to point out that I'm pretty sure the Heroes of the Horn are always spun out in Randland since that's where all their legends are. I could be wrong, so if I am sorry.

Kantuna: 2005-06-18

Maybe the cliff face is metaphorical?

For instance, maybe Egwene is trying to turn the sisters in the White tower to her way of thinking and can't do it as they are too suspicious. (I.E, she can't make it up the cliff.) Then somebody (Possibly Seanchan, possible Amaresu) comes who is trusted by the sisters. This person helps Egwene gain full control of the Tower as Amyrlin by attacking from within (Helping her climb the cliff).

Even better, what if Egwene doesn't know who the person is? That would explain why the face was blurred, as in real life the womans identity was hidden.

I don't know about the sword. I'll get back to you with that one later.

free will: 2005-06-18

free will: "Really? What evidence do you have. Seems to me more like a future for those deemed worthy by the current AS."

Yaga Shura: "Well, i know I didn't make the original statement, but remember when Nynaeve was about to take her accepted test and Sheriam tells her that if she starts then decides she can't go on, she will be put out of the Tower for ever with enough silver to last her for one year. That's a get out clause no marath'damane ever got."

So Sheriam says. And Sheriam also has a bunch of funny business, like not asking questions about grey men, being tortured, etc. And even if it were true, an AS said it, maybe you get the silver and a private eye and if you don't hook up with the Kin within a year (so that you can be kept track of long enough to be faithfully suspecting of staying low profile). Without positive evidence that free agent non-AS non-Kin channelers are tolerated and left free to live (not just "free to go", quite different), then I'll stick to the historical evidence. Specifically, what about Lideine Rajon and Mailaine Harvole? And as for a marath-damane can't she just burn herself out and walk away?

free will: 2005-06-18

The Seanchan enslave channelers -- the White Tower allows you to leave if you do not wish to continue. If you don't wish to continue in Seanchan -- you're crap out of luck.

So says the WT PR machine. What about Lideine Rajon and Mailaine Harvole?

And what about Elaida's "everyone report to the WT or you will be stilled" order. Everyone of sufficient power is tolerated only so long as they are held sufficiently obedient to the relevant power structure, no more and no less. Same deal for both continents.

**Really? What evidence do you have. Seems to me more like a future for those deemed worthy by the current AS.**

Maybe, you know, all those places where people can simply refuse to go further in training? Or fail out. You know, becoming Accepted. They allow you to try it three times -- can't do it then, you're gone. You accept and then can't continue -- you're gone. Then becoming an Aes Sedai. You can't continue -- you're gone. Or how about even when you are an Aes Sedai, you can retire off entirely.

And these people live long happy lives not watched by the Tower and don't suffer "convenient accidents" when their actions aren't approved by the WT? Really? Any examples to back this up Callandor? This sounds suspiciously like so called "free speech", everyone has free speech when the government likes what you say in any land whatsoever in all of time, the real test of real free speech is if those with power don't like what you say. Same with the channelers. Their alleged "freedom" is proven by their treatment when they do things that those in power don't like. We know exactly what the Tower does to female (or male) channelers that do things that they don't like. So how is this freedom? I'd pass on anything you call freedom if your standards call freedom if and only if you compley with us to be freedom. I want real free speech, not free speech if and only if the speech is acceptable to the censors, that's plain old censorship disguised as freedom.

It's a winnowing process to get the only truely dedicated people who want to be Aes Sedai. The Seanchan have no such means of this at all or anything similar. You want out of being a damane -- you pray to be killed, since you can't do it yourself.

More assumptions without evidence or quotes. What about burning out? You are going to stay leashed when burnt out? Why? Does an a'dam even work if you burn yourself out? Can a sul'dam even prevent you drawing too much of the OP? The AS have never said flat out that women leaving the Tower of "free" of influence from the WT, that they aren't watched and judged and that their lives aren't interfered with it, and frankly I don't know of a single person in Randland that would be naive enough to just assume so, only in our world do people assume that. And even then, only a few people, not me.

The Tower will left you leave if and only if you let them have all the power of how, what, when, where, and why you channel. Amazing, so totally different than the Seanchan. I don't know how I ever thought they were similar, maybe all the my-way-or-the-highway with threats of stilling and/or death to back it up. Maybe that's what confused me, or maybe the historical examples of Lideine Rajon and Mailaine Harvole. Maybe that too.

**Really? What about the BWB saying otherwise. What about Lideine Rajon and Mailaine Harvole? They were trained enough to not harm themselves or harm others from a lack of control of the One Power. They were not free to not be bound to the Tower. The choices they were given were to kneel before the Amyrlin, be stilled, or to die. That doesn't seem at all like freedom.**

What, you're saying that because Aes Sedai follow rules, that they are slavers? You have one loose definition.

What, you're saying that you don't know who Lideine Rajon was? That you are unaware that she never joined the WT? What, you're saying that you don't know who Mailaine Harvole was? That you didn't know that she was forced to kneel before the Amrylin against her will when she'd never joined the WT? Then why do you bother responding with non-sequitor comments?

And please stop turning my claim into straw men, Callandor. I didn't say "AS are slavers", I said that AS and the Seanchan aren't "that" different, in that they have those capable of channeling bossing around those that do channel. That's the common culture, and the degree to which the bossing happens and what kind of freedoms the channelers have are the differences between the two, the room for negotiation. While Egwene is considering removing the oaths, Elaida might tolerate adding extra oaths in unification with the Seachan if that's what it took to unify and keep her in power. And such a union is possible, given the fundamental similarities that channelers boss around and control other channelers in both continents. Obviously if you can't demonstrate that sul'dam can learn to channel, then the Seanchan won't negotitate, but once you do, the similarities are clear enough that the differences can be negotiated until there is one uniform standard on "control of channelers" that is considered acceptable to both cultures. That's my claim, and your cartoon version that "AS are slavers" is a a farce. And you know it Callandor.

**Again, textual evidence from the BWB claims that it isn't so different for the WT. The biggest difference is that the WT only demands that channelers kneel to the Amyrlin if they have a certain amount of strength, and sul'dam expect subjugation from channelers of any level of strength. That's the big difference. Do you really have any contextual evidence of a single example of a strong woman that was allowed to leave the Tower, that wasn't kept track of, followed, watched, and therefore basically had her channeling monitored by the WT? A single example Callandor, do you have textual evidence?**

I really don't see the need to at all -- all my examples are obvious ones. This should be one fact, you know like Rand being the Dragon Reborn kinda stuff, that is obvious to even you.

Maybe you just think that textual evidence is something people with weak theories have to come up with? If you have a claim, back it up.

But if you want examples, how about a whole class of them? The Kin. They are made up of nothing but Tower rejects and run aways. Specific exmaples? Sure. Reanne Corly herself. She is strong enough to make a gateway (placing her as strong if not stronger than Moiraine, Elaida, and Siuan pre-stilling) -- kicked out of the Tower. Why?

"**TITLE: Crown of Swords, CHAPTER: 24 - The Kin

"They did not perspire," Berowin whispered at her shoulder. "Yes?" She would have arranged for the news to reach the Tarasin Place in the next hour if she had not given her word. And if not for the danger. Fear bubbled in her middle, the same panic that had overtaken her after one passage through the silver arches when she went to test for Accepted. Just as she had every time it had stirred in the years since, she took a fresh grip on herself; in truth, she did not realize that the fear she might run screaming again had long since conquered any possibility that she would. She prayed that those girls would abandon their insanity."

Because she paniced after agreeing to continue through her test. She failed. She was kicked out of the Tower for it. And I guess you are going to say that she was "watched and followed" all these years... you know when the Kin have all but been forgotten.

Good guess! She was watched and followed enough to know that she was cowed into not using the OP openly and then she was ignored. It's the "you are free to live and channel, if and only if you do so only in a way that we approve of", the exact same deal that the Seanchan give you.

How about Else Grinwell?

You mean Lanfear? Ha, ha, good one.

**TITLE: Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 29 - A Trap To Spring

"I sent no message, Daughter. The things Liandrin and the others left were searched thoroughly, and burned after nothing was found. No one would use Black Ajah leavings. As for Else Grinwell . . . . I remember the girl. She could have learned, had she applied herself, but all she wanted was to smile at the men at the Warders' practice yard. Else Grinwell was put on a trading vessel and sent back to her mother ten days ago."

But I guess she is being watched as astutely as possible, to make sure she can be trusted.

Actually, her "family" is probably dead, and no one is watching her (well, maybe Moridin). She probably didn't even board a ship ... Compulsion has it's benefits, after all. But the fact that she isn't followed and watched as would happen to normal accepted is a good sign that she isn't who she claimed to be. I could be wrong about Else, I've never paid that much attention to her because I didn't care, I guess I might have a reason now, but it still seems like in mathematics what we call (with justified derision) "proof by example", like "'all odds numbers are prime' Example: 3, 5, and 7 are prime". If Else did nothing the Tower disapproved of and therefore nothing bad happened to her, then her "freedom" is meaningless to us. To see if people are allowed to leave, check to see if they are allowed to follow their conscious against the Tower and see how they are treated in THOSE circumstances. If it's peer to peer or fair, then they may have been free all along. If they've been watching you to take you out and do so from the shadows, then you were never ever ever actually free, your apparant freedom was a shame to trick the world into thinking that freedom for channelers existed, that was only granted because you happened to channel in an approved way.

What about Lideine Rajon and Mailaine Harvole? Why weren't they allowed free? They didn't choose to join the Tower, so why weren't they free if that's Tower policy as you allege?

ShadowbaneX: 2005-06-19

free will since you seem intent on running with this massive tangent for all it's worth, how about we look at the end case.

The Aes Sedai might not exactly let a woman that can channel decide to stay at home, but at least that woman remains intact. She gets to keep her own name, she gets to keep her will intact and she (eventually) gets paid

a fortune every single year for the rest of her days. Not too mention that she can go around and be given royal treatment from just about everyone and in some circumstances make Kings and Queens do as they wish.

What does a damane get? A degrading name, extra pudding and sweets, fewer beatings and the occasional pat on the head.

Wealth and luxury vs. torture and humiliation. Yeah, real obvious parallel there.

Let this little pet 'theory' of your's go. Women that can channel in the 'Westlands' are WAY better off than their Seanchan counter parts. End of discussion. Can we get back to the original topic of this theory now or are you intent on resurrecting the Way of the Goat?

Callandor: 2005-06-19

**So Sheriam says. And Sheriam also has a bunch of funny business, like not asking questions about grey men, being tortured, etc. And even if it were true, an AS said it, maybe you get the silver and a private eye and if you don't hook up with the Kin within a year (so that you can be kept track of long enough to be faithfully suspecting of staying low profile). Without positive evidence that free agent non-AS non-Kin channelers are tolerated and left free to live (not just "free to go", quite different), then I'll stick to the historical evidence. Specifically, what about Lideine Rajon and Mailaine Harvole? And as for a marath-damane can't she just burn herself out and walk away?**

1. Are you out of your mind, man?

Here, I'll quote it for you:

**TITLE: Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 22 - The Price of The Ring

"Good," Sheriam said. "Good. Now I will tell you two things no woman hears until she stands where you do. Once you begin, you must go on to the end. Refuse at any point, and you will be put out of the Tower just as if you had refused to begin for the third time. Second. To seek, to strive, is to know danger." She sounded as if she had said this many times. There was a light of sympathy in her eyes, but her face was almost as stern as Elaida's. The sympathy frightened Egwene more than the sternness. "Some women have entered, and never come out. When the ter'angreal was allowed to grow quiet, they-were-not-there. And they were never seen again. If you will survive, you must be steadfast. Falter, fail, and . . . ." Sheriam's face drove the unspoken words home.**

I'm sorry, but Aes Sedai actually do have better things to do than watch novices and Accepted that they toss out of the Tower because either they fail or they don't wish to continue.

2. No, a marath'damane cannot channel more than a trickle of the Power without being sick, and a majority of the time without a command from the sul'dam. Channeling enough to burn a damane out, would more than likely cause her to overdose, and she would die, not just "walk away" from it.

**So says the WT PR machine. What about Lideine Rajon and Mailaine Harvole?**

As I said, and a point you apparently delibrately ignored for some reason, because the White Tower adhers to rules that it makes, it's enslavement? You're barking up the wrong river here.

**And what about Elaida's "everyone report to the WT or you will be stilled" order. Everyone of sufficient power is tolerated only so long as they are held sufficiently obedient to the relevant power structure, no more and no less. Same deal for both continents.**

No. There is a very big difference.

In Randland, you are brought to the Tower or found and trained at least enough not to harm yourself and encouraged to go further -- if you don't wish to, you can leave at anytime you feel like or you can simply fail out.

In Seanchan, a damane is hunted down and leashed into servitude, without question, without possiblity of release, because they are dangerous animals. What part of this basic knowledge of the Seanchan is so hard to understand?

**And these people live long happy lives not watched by the Tower and don't suffer "convenient accidents" when their actions aren't approved by the WT? Really? Any examples to back this up Callandor?**

Yes, I quoted them above. The Kin is an entire coven of Tower rejects, failures, and drop outs, and none of them are watched. None of them are enslaved.

**This sounds suspiciously like so called "free speech", everyone has free speech when the government likes what you say in any land whatsoever in all of time, the real test of real free speech is if those with power don't like what you say.**

You have free speech of the government to any degree you wish -- they don't like it they can discredit you all they want, and if people listen to that it's their choice, but if the government does anything to take away that right it's an illegal action.

**Their alleged "freedom" is proven by their treatment when they do things that those in power don't like. We know exactly what the Tower does to female (or male) channelers that do things that they don't like.**

No, please, tell us, free will.

If there is a group of channelers posing as Aes Sedai, they are sought and captured (heck, they even stand chances of becoming Aes Sedai). Why? Same thing as you claiming to be the President. Disgrace to the image.

If the person is in the White Tower, they are subject to Tower law. Even Amyrlin's aren't above this (hence why some have been stilled and removed). You for some reason seem to think that because the White Tower has rules and follows them, that it's slavery -- it's not.

**More assumptions without evidence or quotes.**

Do you know why? Because anyone who has read past The Great Hunt, knows these very simple facts, except you.

**The AS have never said flat out that women leaving the Tower of "free" of influence from the WT, that they aren't watched and judged and that their lives aren't interfered with it, and frankly I don't know of a single person in Randland that would be naive enough to just assume so, only in our world do people assume that.**

Guess what? Explain the Kin please.

**The Tower will left you leave if and only if you let them have all the power of how, what, when, where, and why you channel.**

Nope. You leave, you've left. Where is the difficulty here?

**What, you're saying that you don't know who Lideine Rajon was? That you are unaware that she never joined the WT? What, you're saying that you don't know who Mailaine Harvole was? That you didn't know that she was forced to kneel before the Amrylin against her will when she'd never joined the WT? Then why do you bother responding with non-sequitor comments?**

No, I know who they were and what happened to them -- once again, you're saying that adhering to laws is slavery. You have one loose as heck definition of it.

** I didn't say "AS are slavers", I said that AS and the Seanchan aren't "that" different, in that they have those capable of channeling bossing around those that do channel.**

Nope, you haven't said that -- but what you have said constitutes a fundamental misunderstanding or a diliberate ignorance for everything an Aes Sedai stands for and the Seanchan culture, and you are saying they are essentially the same.

Yeah. They are. You know how?

They're made up of channelers. They're based around women in power. They're a culture of themselves.

But they have one major difference -- the Seanchan enslave channelers, the White Tower does not.

What you're doing is saying, oh well, they're nearly the same except for that, so they will understand each other. Boy, you must go to Iraq and meet the Muslim fundamentalists and tell them to shake hands with the Christian fundamentalists because the religions are so similar (being based on roughly the same history) that they can look past the difference. Tell you what, go to Jerusalem and take the Muslim fundamentalist, and the Christian fundamentalist, and have them shake hands with a Jewish fundamentalist, and tell them not to kill each other.

Except that it does not work that why. Why? Because those are major differences.

You accuse me of throwing a straw man here? Why don't you step up to the plate and confess to blatantly playing ignorant to what you know to be true: Aes Sedai and the White Tower are fundamentally different than the Seanchan culture and sul'dam and damane. Quit downplaying them and making them sound like pages 44 and pages 45 of some book made from the same paper.

**Maybe you just think that textual evidence is something people with weak theories have to come up with? If you have a claim, back it up.**

See that's the thing -- I did, and you ignore it. Enjoy. Or, you know, you could get a point, know it, and make clear objections after completely reading a post by someone -- but that would be too much to ask?

**Good guess! She was watched and followed enough to know that she was cowed into not using the OP openly and then she was ignored. It's the "you are free to live and channel, if and only if you do so only in a way that we approve of", the exact same deal that the Seanchan give you.**

Wow. Just wow. I cannot even begin to tell you how wrong that statement is. It's just.... wow.

And you say I need to back up my claims? Please. Provide me with this ever fantastical quote that tells that Reanne Corly was watched and "cowed" into not using the One Power and then ignored.

And, btw, you already shown the key difference right there, even if you are blatantly making up "facts." Even in your complete fabrications -- the White Tower left her alone, an active channeler, one who could pose as an Aes Sedai!, and the Seanchan never do.

**You mean Lanfear? Ha, ha, good one.**

In case you didn't know from missing things entirely, Else Grinwell was a real girl, met Rand and Mat in The Eye of the World, came to the White Tower, started studying, and then was put out of the Tower. Lanfear only impersonated her afterwards.

Or, I guess you are saying that RJ is wrong:

**Q: Was Else always Lanfear?

A: No. Else did exist as a separate human but was played by Lanfear after Else was expelled.**

A bit presumptuous.

**If Else did nothing the Tower disapproved of and therefore nothing bad happened to her, then her "freedom" is meaningless to us.**

Why? The Tower let her go, and did not "watch and cow" her. Hence, your assertion is false. Clear and simple.

ShadowbaneX: The Aes Sedai might not exactly let a woman that can channel decide to stay at home, but at least that woman remains intact. She gets to keep her own name, she gets to keep her will intact and she (eventually) gets paid a fortune every single year for the rest of her days. Not too mention that she can go around and be given royal treatment from just about everyone and in some circumstances make Kings and Queens do as they wish. What does a damane get? A degrading name, extra pudding and sweets, fewer beatings and the occasional pat on the head. Wealth and luxury vs. torture and humiliation. Yeah, real obvious parallel there.

Let this little pet 'theory' of your's go. Women that can channel in the 'Westlands' are WAY better off than their Seanchan counter parts.

I'm willing to "let go" of *your* theory that "women in Seanchan are treated equally well or maybe better than women in Randland are". But that was *never* my theory, I heard it from you just now for the first time.

End of discussion.

Good, so let's stop talking about your theory and talk about mine.

Can we get back to the original topic of this theory now or are you intent on resurrecting the Way of the Goat?

This theory is about Seanchan and AS cooperating or unifying. Some claim that the cultural differences are too large to allow either. My theory is that the differences might not be that large once sul'dam as a whole find out that every sul'dam can learn to channel. I don't know what the Way of the Goat is, but if it's what you and Callandor seem to do of argueing against straw men, then I think it should be avoided. My theory has always been 100% on topic, because it's my contention that AS and sul'dam are not so culturally different that they can't grow enough to get along before the series ends. They both have those who could channel excersie control over those who can, the rest is details that they will have to negotiate with each other.

Callandor: I'm sorry, but Aes Sedai actually do have better things to do than watch novices and Accepted that they toss out of the Tower because either they fail or they don't wish to continue.

That'd be a useful statement if anyone had claimed that AS are skulking in the shadows personally watching former accepted and novices. But! Noone actually said that. Callandor, you once again have strengthened my opinion by demonstrating that the best that you can do is to argue against straw man versions of my statements.

BTW, did your quote of Sheriam have any baring on anything that either of us said. She said that doing one thing would be treated like another thing and gave some advice. How is that relevant to anything we are talking about?

2. No, a marath'damane cannot channel more than a trickle of the Power without being sick, and a majority of the time without a command from the sul'dam. Channeling enough to burn a damane out, would more than likely cause her to overdose, and she would die, not just "walk away" from it.

And again, your straw man theories about my theories are so entertaining, but not convincing. Your statement is literally false (it claims that no AS can be burned out unless first leashed by a sul'dam and given permission to do so, obviously wrong). So, being a generous man, I'll assume you meant damane (leashed) and not marath'daman (those who should be leashed). Even so you assume that my hypothetical damane's all got visions from the Creator who spoke to them and told them to never ever attempt to burn out when given permission to channel (maybe that's part of training and I just didn't notice when I read the books, if so then please give a quote) and so they all wait until they are alone. But I never assumed such visions by the creator, or personal appearances. I said that they could burn themselves out. When a sul'dam allows you to embrace and channel, you can over channel and burn yourself out. As far as I know. Your artificial contraints shed zero light on whether or not this is impossible. If you were attemping humor, my deepest apologies for not getting the joke.

**So says the WT PR machine. What about Lideine Rajon and Mailaine Harvole?**

As I said, and a point you apparently delibrately ignored for some reason, because the White Tower adhers to rules that it makes, it's enslavement? You're barking up the wrong river here.

Um, I didn't ignore that, I said that it sounded like a non-sequitor. But you did not take that as a call to elaborate, and again carry on your straw man false claim that I said that the WT enslaves people. That's not my thesis and I've told you that, so stop it, it's not funny. What rule did Lideine Rajon break? What rule did Mailaine Harvole break? Why couldn't they peacefully live their lives? Those are questions you refuse to answer. And for the fifth time, I'm saying that AS and Seanchan have things in common, which is a heavy handed channeler and channeling controlling culture. That's the common basis that they have. Twisting that statement into "the WT enslaves channelers" is an outright misrepresentation.

**And what about Elaida's "everyone report to the WT or you will be stilled" order. Everyone of sufficient power is tolerated only so long as they are held sufficiently obedient to the relevant power structure, no more and no less. Same deal for both continents.**

No. There is a very big difference.

A big difference to the straw man theory that "Elaida is a slaver". But only you hear anyone say such things. If you read my posts I don't and never have said that.

In Randland, you are brought to the Tower or found and trained at least enough not to harm yourself and encouraged to go further -- if you don't wish to, you can leave at anytime you feel like or you can simply fail out.

Such is your theory, and so says the WT PR machine. But what about Lideine Rajon and Mailaine Harvole? You claim that someone trained enough to not be a danger to themself can leave. I cite counter examples. In mathematics or other logical fields, your theory would be disproven by the single counter example. But you instead just repeat your claims again and again, and you accomplish nothing except trying people's patience. Since we have examples of channelers that were very much not left alone, the burden is on you to provide a single example of your universal assertion. A single example of a woman that left and wasn't watched or restricted.

In Seanchan, a damane is hunted down and leashed into servitude, without question, without possiblity of release, because they are dangerous animals. What part of this basic knowledge of the Seanchan is so hard to understand?

Assuming, since I am a generous man, that you meant marath'damane instead of damane, your statement is more accurate. But your implication that I'm unaware of the facts is purely a personal attack. I've never claimed that Seanchan don't do that, or that the WT does do that. I've only claimed that the cultural differences between the two groups will not be so large once the sul'dam find out that sul'dam can learn to channel. That was my thesis.

**And these people live long happy lives not watched by the Tower and don't suffer "convenient accidents" when their actions aren't approved by the WT? Really? Any examples to back this up Callandor?**

Yes, I quoted them above. The Kin is an entire coven of Tower rejects, failures, and drop outs, and none of them are watched. None of them are enslaved.

None of them were watched? But you have zero quotes? The WT knew about the Kin, and always has. I wonder how exactly you think that is possible if none of them were ever watched as you claim. I'd provide quotes myself if I were completely unmotivated by my darker suspicion that your entire post might be intended to be sarcasm and you actually agree with me. I'm simply not willing to reread the entire series just because I didn't grasp your attempt at humor.

**This sounds suspiciously like so called "free speech", everyone has free speech when the government likes what you say in any land whatsoever in all of time, the real test of real free speech is if those with power don't like what you say.**

You have free speech of the government to any degree you wish -- they don't like it they can discredit you all they want, and if people listen to that it's their choice, but if the government does anything to take away that right it's an illegal action.

I don't know what country you live in that gives you such freedom. But unless your country was founded very very recently, then I'm certain that if you told me the name that I could, with some effort, produce a list of people that were killed just for what they said, I could probably even make sure the list only includes people who died and where no one was convicted of wrong doing for their deaths.

**Their alleged "freedom" is proven by their treatment when they do things that those in power don't like. We know exactly what the Tower does to female (or male) channelers that do things that they don't like.**

No, please, tell us, free will.

The resources of the WT are moved against them proportionate to the degree that the WT doesn't approve of what they do. Duh.

If there is a group of channelers posing as Aes Sedai, they are sought and captured (heck, they even stand chances of becoming Aes Sedai). Why? Same thing as you claiming to be the President. Disgrace to the image.

What? Now you are saying that I'd be captured if I claimed to be the President? I say you are wrong. Here you go:


I am the President

Now, in a few weeks, when I'm still around you'll know that you were wrong Callandor.

If the person is in the White Tower, they are subject to Tower law.

What does that statement mean, Callandor? The first stone of the WT wasn't placed until 98AB and Lideine Rajon was stilled in 77AB, so she clearly was not physically within a yet-to-be-built physical tower. So if you mean an organization, then either you can be allowed to leave the organization or not. Lideine Rajon was stilled for leaving the organization. She wasn't allowed to leave. If Tower law says that it is illegal to be named Lideine Rajon and your name is Lideine Rajon then wouldn't you retire? And if you were stilled anyway doesn't that prove that the WT is a coersive organization? Which is all my point ever was.

Even Amyrlin's aren't above this (hence why some have been stilled and removed). You for some reason seem to think that because the White Tower has rules and follows them, that it's slavery -- it's not.

I think no such thing, and I've told you so. Go read my posts, the actual words that I write. I'm saying that the WT is coersive, Lideine Rajon is merely an example of this. But I guess you expect me to find the fact that Sheriam gave advice about what is treated like what and what the dangers of a ter'angrael are that I'm somehow supposed to be convinced that the WT didn't still people merely for leaving the organization. Somehow the logic escapes me, so have pity on a wretch like me and explain it.

**More assumptions without evidence or quotes.**

Do you know why? Because anyone who has read past The Great Hunt, knows these very simple facts, except you.

OK, so you narrowed it down to three books, that's a start. But based on your quote where Sheriam gives some warning and an equivalency that you claim proves that the WT is not coersive I'm suspicious of anything you claim the books say until I see it in black and white. I never claimed that the WT enslaves people. I claim that in the WT some channelers use coersion on other channelers. Lideine Rajon is an example, because non-coersive organizations always allow their members to dissassociate without consequences, and the WT is clearly not like that based on the example of Lideine Rajon.

**The AS have never said flat out that women leaving the Tower of "free" of influence from the WT, that they aren't watched and judged and that their lives aren't interfered with it, and frankly I don't know of a single person in Randland that would be naive enough to just assume so, only in our world do people assume that.**

Guess what? Explain the Kin please.

Is the explantion given in the books allowed? The one that the WT allowed the Kin to exist so that most runaways would make a beeline for it and thus be captured more easily. I believe the books mention the pre-Kin runaway capture rate and the post-Kin runaway capture rate. I think it was something qualitatively similar to 2 out of 20 pre-Kin to 19 out of 20 post-Kin. That's why the Kin were allowed. As for why some go unwatched, I think the Tower has someone watched a bit, but they just don't expect the Kin to live as long as they do, so after a few name changes and fake deaths, the Tower probably thinks that the novice or accepted is actually dead. I didn't realize this wasn't well known, I even thought that it was explained in the novels. If you are sure that it is not, then I can look through the few interviews that I've read to try to find the quotes for you, OK?

**The Tower will left you leave if and only if you let them have all the power of how, what, when, where, and why you channel.**

Nope. You leave, you've left. Where is the difficulty here?

The difficulty is named Lideine Rajon. You know that, because I've said exactly that to you before.

**What, you're saying that you don't know who Lideine Rajon was? That you are unaware that she never joined the WT? What, you're saying that you don't know who Mailaine Harvole was? That you didn't know that she was forced to kneel before the Amrylin against her will when she'd never joined the WT? Then why do you bother responding with non-sequitor comments?**

No, I know who they were and what happened to them -- once again, you're saying that adhering to laws is slavery. You have one loose as heck definition of it.

Once again you are saying that I said that "adhereing to laws is slavery", whereas I've expressed said that I'm not saying that, and I actually said that the WT is coersive. Can you please respond to what I write instead of your straw man versions of my text? And what law are you insinuating that Lideine Rajon broke? I haven't read every single RJ interview and the BWB and the 11 novels give no indication of Lideine Rajon breaking any law. Please enlighten me. You've admited to knowing who Lideine Rajon was and what happened to her, so what law did she break and what is your evidence? Please please please cite evidence Callandor. It's only fair after wasting so much space fighting the "free straw" the fiction poster on strawland that claims that the WT enslaves people instead of responding to my claims that the WT using coersion against channelers.

** I didn't say "AS are slavers", I said that AS and the Seanchan aren't "that" different, in that they have those capable of channeling bossing around those that do channel.**

Nope, you haven't said that -- but what you have said constitutes a fundamental misunderstanding or a diliberate ignorance for everything an Aes Sedai stands for and the Seanchan culture, and you are saying they are essentially the same.

Thank you for finally admitting that you lied over and over again when claiming that I'd said the AS are slavers. As for our fundamental disagreement. I say the Lideine Rajon broke no law of a WT that she was any part of. You claim that she broke a law but won't give me a source. And again you misrepresent my view, which is and always has been that when Seanchans admit that sul'dam can learn to channel, that the Seanchan and AS approaches will then become similar enough, the open coersion of channelers by other channelers, that unification or cooperation might become possible. I haven't claimed that the current Seanchan culture that ignores that sul'dam can channel is sufficiently simlar to cooperate with the WT. That's why I mention channelers controlling other channelers as the common culture. When the Seanchan get there, unification or cooperation might be possible. They aren't there yet. A handful, if any, sul'dam know that sul'dam can learn to channel.

Yeah. They are. You know how?

They're made up of channelers. They're based around women in power. They're a culture of themselves.

But they have one major difference -- the Seanchan enslave channelers, the White Tower does not.

And as I've tried to make clear that difference is not so large as it appears. The question of slave or not is a gross character of the real question of free or not and the gradation allowed in that determination. The AS are not free and the damane are not free, the question is how to reconcile the two.

What you're doing is saying, oh well, they're nearly the same except for that, so they will understand each other. Boy, you must go to Iraq and meet the Muslim fundamentalists and tell them to shake hands with the Christian fundamentalists because the religions are so similar (being based on roughly the same history) that they can look past the difference. Tell you what, go to Jerusalem and take the Muslim fundamentalist, and the Christian fundamentalist, and have them shake hands with a Jewish fundamentalist, and tell them not to kill each other.

I never said it would be easy. Your false dichotomy that either no cooperation or unification is possible or else it must be as easy as having an outside telling people to cooperate or unify has no basis except maybe in your pride at wanting to make me falsely look like an ass. I know that you can reason correctly, so please stop creating straw men and false dichotomies. It's a complete waste of time.

Except that it does not work that why. Why? Because those are major differences.

For cooperation or unification to occur, the similarities have to be strengthend. That's almost the definition. Cooperation or unification of different groups might be possible if they go through traumatic upheavals that challenge the basis for their culture and encounter another group undergoing the same thing and both sides choose to emphasize their commonality. For an example to your real world example I suspect the coming of the twin or double prophet that founded the Bahai faith would be an example of such a unification or cooperation between formerly disparate groups.

You accuse me of throwing a straw man here? Why don't you step up to the plate and confess to blatantly playing ignorant to what you know to be true: Aes Sedai and the White Tower are fundamentally different than the Seanchan culture and sul'dam and damane. Quit downplaying them and making them sound like pages 44 and pages 45 of some book made from the same paper.

Stop making straw men Callandor. The WT is challenged by whether or not to keep the three oaths and whether or not oaths of obedience should be made. The Seanchan are going to have to deal with the fact that sul'dam can learn to channel. When both groups sit down to figure out how to deal with this, they have an opportunity, which they may or may not take to realize that their new incarnations need not be so different from each other that they cannot get along or maybe unify. Currently each are different enough to make unification or even cooperation almost unthinkable. But that doesn't make future cooperation or even unification impossible. I'd disagree ShadowbaneX to the point where I think that this might even be able to happen within the few remaining books. That's pretty close. Would I say that that is like two pages of the same book made with the same paper (as opposed to the same book made with different paper?!?)? Probably not. I'm not ignoring anything or downplaying anything. I'm saying that each are changing and that there is a basis of commonality, enough that when they change, they might change towards cooperation or unification instead of away from it or instead of in a way that perpetuates the historical signifigant difference.

In case you need a bite size sound bite try: "The Seanchan and AS have signifigant similarities as well as signifigant differences." Specifically, they are similar in that coersion is used to control channelers by other channelers. This might allow unification of the two groups. Recall that the Foretelling the Guardians and the Serpent, it doesn't say the Guardians and the Serpent plus the Ravens/LightningBolts. It weakly implies that the female channelers unify. You can believe that this isn't possible all you want, but if you have to mischaracterize my theory in order to discredit my theory, that only reflects on your rebuttal, not on your own theory. ShadowbaneX thinks that the Seanchan cannot be the sword (even though a sword is a strong mythic symbol for a weapon and damane are considered weapons) he even ignores that the face could be symbolic with the fact that damane aren't considered real people. He may have considered that the fissure is the splitting of the Tower, but wrongly in my opinion considers the scaling down the mountain to be down a literal mountain and therefore a HotH type action. If the mountain is merely symbolism for a great distance that is hard to travel and that brings great change, then the coming together of Egwene and the Seanchan might be what helps Egwene unify the Tower. The size of the mountain does represent, IMO, the difficulty of unifying Seanchan and Egwene's camps, but Egwene is a realist and practical and motivated (especially if this happen before TG like I predict, in disagreement with ShadowbaneX) and actually she is no stranger to coersion. She has been on both ends of an a'dam. She has extracted oaths. She's on that path where the three groups of channelers can IMO come together.

**Maybe you just think that textual evidence is something people with weak theories have to come up with? If you have a claim, back it up.**

See that's the thing -- I did, and you ignore it. Enjoy. Or, you know, you could get a point, know it, and make clear objections after completely reading a post by someone -- but that would be too much to ask?

I do read your posts Callandor, I'm offended at the suggestion otherwise. In fact, I'm very careful to read your posts precisely because you so often accuse me of saying things that I haven't said. I don't see textual evidence to support your claims or to repute my claims. You claimed that the Kin aren't watched and I dispute that. You claim that Lideine Rajon broke tower law and I dispute that. But you don't provide textual evidence to support your claims.

**Good guess! She was watched and followed enough to know that she was cowed into not using the OP openly and then she was ignored. It's the "you are free to live and channel, if and only if you do so only in a way that we approve of", the exact same deal that the Seanchan give you.**

Wow. Just wow. I cannot even begin to tell you how wrong that statement is. It's just.... wow.

Yeah, yeah, you can't find quotes to contradict me... this isn't news Callandor.

And you say I need to back up my claims? Please. Provide me with this ever fantastical quote that tells that Reanne Corly was watched and "cowed" into not using the One Power and then ignored.

I freely admit that I don't remember who Reanne Corly is, hence my request for you to provide quotes that she was not followed or watched. And I didn't actually require that she never channel, only that she act within whatever contrainsts the WT deems fit.

And, btw, you already shown the key difference right there, even if you are blatantly making up "facts."

What fact have I made up. My thesis is that the WT uses coersion by channelers on channelers. Egwene extracts oaths and uses an a'dam. Lideine Rajon is stilled. I don't need to make up any facts, the real facts support me just fine.

Even in your complete fabrications -- the White Tower left her alone, an active channeler, one who could pose as an Aes Sedai!, and the Seanchan never do.

Even if the WT left someone that they believed "could" pose as an Aes Sedai unwatched, how does this affect my thesis. My thesis is that the WT is no stranger to coersion and that this can be the basis for getting along with a Seanchan culture that realizes that they are based on coersion, not on any important inherent different between sul'dam and damane. Nothing you say has ever weakened my thesis in the slightest, not a whit. And they only reason that I can imagine for you not getting that, is that you are so wrapped up in your personal viewpoint that you just plain can't see what my thesis is and hence are impotent to argue against it.

**You mean Lanfear? Ha, ha, good one.**


In case you didn't know from missing things entirely, Else Grinwell was a real girl, met Rand and Mat in The Eye of the World, came to the White Tower, started studying, and then was put out of the Tower. Lanfear only impersonated her afterwards.


Can you read my previous paragraph about how no points you have brought up actually weaken my theory? Do you realize that the only reason I don't just concede to almost all your claims to simply avoid debating with you are because I'm a fundamentally honest person that doesn't lie? Not because I need to win them to defend my theory. That's because if I were a liar I could concede those points to you and my theory would still stand. The WT is no stranger to coersion. I'm sure that you agree. The Seanchan do not in fact collar animals (which you also surely agree) and in fact also merely use coersion, more completely and more expertly, but still ordinary coersion.

When both sides are reorganizing and owning up to those facts, the opportunity may exist for cooperation and/or unification.

Not that that has to be the way the Dream plays out. Maybe the Seanchan collar an Black sister and prove that the oaths don't bind her. Maybe a'dams will then be used to find Black sisters and this will unify the two halves of the Towers, when the Keeper of one is proven Black, that section will shatter, "this I Predict", (not really, I think things could go many different ways). My point is that the Seanchan might not unify with the WT, but I do believe that not only could it happen in the remaining books, but that there are other interpretations of the Dream that can also be resolved before the series is over...A bit presumptuous.

So you can come up with quotes for the stuff that doesn't matter? Because it doesn't matter how many people the WT chooses for whatever reason to let "run away", my theory still stands based on the fact that what the White Tower does do is simply no stranger to coersion and could reconcile with the Seanchan.

And frankly, your quote does not prove that Lanfear did not kill both Else and Else's family before impersonating her.

**If Else did nothing the Tower disapproved of and therefore nothing bad happened to her, then her "freedom" is meaningless to us.**

Why? The Tower let her go, and did not "watch and cow" her. Hence, your assertion is false. Clear and simple.

Where is your quote that no one watches Else? Show me such a quote (not that it affects my theory, see above).

To everyone else: I'm not moralizing, or chastizing, or suggesting that the Tower should act differently, this is a fictional universe we are talking about. I'm saying that when sul'dam find out they they can learn to channel, their society will restructure based on their long tradition of coersing and controlling those who can channel. Other society and organizations also do this, like the WT. The WT might unify with or cooperate with the newly enlightened Seanchan, and since all the societies have control over channelers, the new unified or cooperative things will also likely have some kind of restriction or oversight on channelers. Maybe when you repeal the oaths, you'll wear an a'dam sealed by cuiendelar, only RJ knows for certain, if cooperation or unification even happens. The point of my theory is that Seanchan and the WT actually have a lot in common because both sides have a long tradition of controlling those who channel to benefit society and maintain the power that channeling brings some. And that both groups are or are going to very very soon start calling into question the traditional ways that control was established an enforced and that when they do this, more common ground might exist in the end then there is now. Please don't read more into this then what I've said.

Sodas: 2005-06-21

By off-stage, you mean, after the books conclude, right? I'm not to sure that will happen, simply because I think it will take some sort of epic reason to get Rand to sacrifice himself. That epic reason could be a fight, it could be many things, but a struggle lasting many years most likely won't occur this time. For one, I believe the Light will come out exceeding more powerful this time because they will have both Saidin and Saidar channelers to fight off the remaining Shadow. I feel those thoughts are well reflected in the 4th age prophesies, as they seem to indicate to me that a) what was important was what Rand is doing now, and b) the 4th age looks back and see's Rand as a savior.

Narianna: 2005-06-21

given the constraints of the books' length it is quite probable. but ido wish to see the final battel betwwn the trlloc hordes lead by demandred and light's forces commanded by mat.

since both are described as gamblers and are the top most generals still alive, it will be a battle i think that RJ ought to write.

Callandor: 2005-06-21

**Callandor, you once again have strengthened my opinion by demonstrating that the best that you can do is to argue against straw man versions of my statements.**

Ok, I'm offically going to stop listening to anything you ever say at Theoryland again.

ShadowbaneX: 2005-06-22

Free Will: I don't use logical fallicies in my arguements and I don't appriciate others suggesting that I do so. This thread is about what's going to happen after the series is over. You obviously have a theory about a cultural revolution in Seanchan and that the government that will replace the current one will be more sympathetic to Western Aes Sedai. That's fine. It would be very simple for you to submit this as a new theory and get your own thread for it rather than duking it out here and clouding the issue I'm trying to put forward. I would have thought this common curtesy. I don't go into other people's threads and go off on tangents, I would expect the same from others.

Sodas: yup, I'm theorizing that all this will happen after the series is over. There might well be a fight, but another thing you have to consider is that there are some titanic forces involved here. Just because something happens to Rand or the Dark One doesn't mean these forces will simply dissapate.

Narianna: I'd also like to see that as well, but the 'evidence' I've found seems to point to another possibility. Not much can be done now, but to wait for it to happen.

Tanis: 2005-06-22

[Tanis shuffles into the corner of the inn, with a sombrero on, wishing he'd kept his opinions to himself}

SBX - Apologies for my off topic aside high-jacking your thoery!

But ...having read the numerous replies and opinions offered, one further thought comes to mind.

*What you're doing is saying, oh well, they're nearly the same except for that, so they will understand each other. Boy, you must go to Iraq and meet the Muslim fundamentalists and tell them to shake hands with the Christian fundamentalists because the religions are so similar (being based on roughly the same history) that they can look past the difference. Tell you what, go to Jerusalem and take the Muslim fundamentalist, and the Christian fundamentalist, and have them shake hands with a Jewish fundamentalist, and tell them not to kill each other. *

I agree entirely Callandor, but surely that's entirely the original point I was making. These peoples believe themselves to have hugely opposing views. However, how do you think they'd react when given a common enemy? And not an enemy that can be sided with, an enemy that would seek to wipe out their entire civilisation. By recognising their similarities, finding some common ground, maybe?

In the case of the AS/sul'dam (but many parallels can be drawn with the fundamental arms of religion), they might (and only might) recognise their common ground, the control of channelers within their society. And as was stated above, find the middle ground between their two methods, which are metaphorically very similar.

Right, I'll go away now, many apolgies again SBX. My half baked replies are normally (and correctly!) ignored by Tamyrlin, and when they're let through they're usually ignored by everyone else anyway!

For what it's worth I entirely agree with your theory, and I do think it ties back into the secondary debate raging. Temporary alliances usually only last as long as the common enemy remains, seal the DO back in the bore the thread that binds a lot of them together will fail.

ShadowbaneX: 2005-06-22

Don't worry too much about it Tanis. Tangents happen. However, when they do develop into their own full blown threads I would think that those involved would go and create their own theories and discuss it somewhere else out of common curtesy if nothing else.

free will: 2005-06-22

Free Will: I don't use logical fallicies in my arguements and I don't appriciate others suggesting that I do so.


I don't recall suggesting that you did. I recall pointing out that you were argueing against a theory that I never made. I assumed that was either poor exposition on my part (which is very likely given that you were not alone) or poor reading on your part (which is very unlikely given that you were not alone).

This thread is about what's going to happen after the series is over.

Sorry, I didn't realize that, I thought it the theory was that Egwene's dream would be fullfilled after the series is over, which I haven't seen you support to my satisfaction. I thought RJ said he'd leave minor things unresolved. Which in my mind was stuff like Nynaeve not having Lan's Warder bond yet, not an entire War of Power. But I'm open minded if you can support your theory better, which is all that I ever wanted from you.

You obviously have a theory about a cultural revolution in Seanchan and that the government that will replace the current one will be more sympathetic to Western Aes Sedai. That's fine. It would be very simple for you to submit this as a new theory and get your own thread for it rather than duking it out here and clouding the issue I'm trying to put forward.

Clouding the issue? It's called debating. Your premise that the series will end with the Dream unfullfilled is based on your interpretation of the Dream. Theoryland isn't about ignoring evidence out of common curtesy, but about debate and evidence. I agree that your theory is possible. I also think that my theory is possible, and since they use the same evidence, I'd like to see you strengthen your theory against mine.

I'm not interested in being off topic, I'm not interested in personal attacks, I not interested in straw men or undefended theories. I want to understand the WoT world better, and intelligent debate is the way to do that. Your theory that the Dream will be unfullfilled, and I actually find it very convincing except for the blurred face. To me, a blurred face means that multiple people could (or will be) "the one" which rules out a Hero of the Horn. But since I'd actually like to see you provide more support for your theory, I do what should rationally motivate you the most, provide alternative theories. In science when multiple theories are proposed, people go out to get data to distinguish the two. I like your theory enough that I want to see you defend it, I want to be convinced by you.

For instance, you say that there will be a post-TG War of Power. But what is the mountain that Egwene is climbing? Metaphorically the Seanchan came down from it, so unless Amaresu first becomes a Friend of the Dark, it isn't the Shadow, so how is this Hero of the Horn helping in this second War of Power? In my theory, the mountain represents the cultural differences and political divides between female channelers. It then makes sense for the Seachan to decsend, unify and the together go up to a point where Egwene is raised above all others. Your theory doesn't make sense, the mountain only exists to demonstrate how uber-cool Amaresu is, which ignores that the mountain was an issue that Egwene struggled with before Amaresu appears. I want you to strengthen your theory, and I am terribly deeply sorry that alternative interpretations do the opposite of motivating you into supporting and explaining your theory better. I'm sorry because I'm neither rude, nor an idiot and I would have made my own theory if I didn't want to see you defend and support your theory better.

I would have thought this common curtesy. I don't go into other people's threads and go off on tangents, I would expect the same from others.

Why do you assume the most mallicious intent possible from me? Can't you just defend your theory by giving evidence about why "the great impedeus of TG and the culture shake up finding out about sul'dam being marath'damane and having the WT triple in size and join up with men" means that the Seanchan and WT can't get along for any amount of time in any way before the books end? Because interpreting the sword figure as a damane is very plausible. But that competeing theory could be wrong, a good debater debates instead of making personal attacks and instead of assuming that others talk just to be "off topic".

Just give more evidence that there will be no cooperation in the books. Since you believe your theory strongly, your subconcious and conscious mind can find such evidence better than I can. Because my subconscious will ignore evidence that disputes my favorite theories, but my rational mind wants to see all the data, so help everyone out by giving us more data, specifically give us more data that defends your theory.

ShadowbaneX: 2005-06-22

You used the term 'Straw Man', which is also know as Ad Hominem Fallacy.

I had thought that your theory was unrelated. I didn't know about your interpretation. I had thought it was about Aes Sedai and Seanchan which is a long stretch from where I originally was.

As for the mountain, it might be an issue, but even Freud said "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." I'm thinking it might just be a mountain. It could also be some other issue, but it need not be some sort of elevation in station as you seem to think.

The Heroes of the Horn will help they always do, as soldiers, warriors and leaders. If there is a war and the world as gone through a second breaking where else will the Heroes be most needed?

Assume malicious intent? You were off talking about the similarities between Aes Sedai and Sul'dam, which most people will say are very few. You were off somewhere else and I wanted it back on track. There's no maliciousness in that, only me moderating the topic. As for the sword figure being a damane? Ummm...I don't think that's plausible at all. The description of the character from Occam's point of view would be to say it's a Hero. Thinking that it's a damane seems to be a bit of a reach to me.

(I don't like this place for debating theories. The message board is so much better for this kind of debate.)

Anubis: 2005-06-23

My turn to make an incredibly long obnoxious to read and largely pointless post!! :D

**When a sul'dam allows you to embrace and channel, you can over channel and burn yourself out. As far as I know.**

No. The collar creates a link. When two (or more) channelers are linked it is impossible for the one controlling the flows (the Sul'Dan) to force the other(s) to overdraw.

**Yes, I quoted them above. The Kin is an entire coven of Tower rejects, failures, and drop outs, and none of them are watched. None of them are enslaved.

None of them were watched? But you have zero quotes? The WT knew about the Kin, and always has.**

The vast majority of the Kin were not watched, simply because the Aes Sedai had no idea that they existed. Saying the WT knew about the Kin is negligent and misleading.

**The resources of the WT are moved against them proportionate to the degree that the WT doesn't approve of what they do. Duh. **

Explain Cadsuane.

**I'm saying that the WT is coersive**

I would challenge you to name a single authoritative institution that isn't.

**I believe the books mention the pre-Kin runaway capture rate and the post-Kin runaway capture rate. I think it was something qualitatively similar to 2 out of 20 pre-Kin to 19 out of 20 post-Kin. That's why the Kin were allowed.**

Thats part of it. The other part is that the Aes Sedai believed the Kin to be small and insignificant. Or do you believe that several hundred channelers would have been allowed to go free?

**And again you misrepresent my view, which is and always has been that when Seanchans admit that sul'dam can learn to channel, that the Seanchan and AS approaches will then become similar enough, the open coersion of channelers by other channelers, that unification or cooperation might become possible. I haven't claimed that the current Seanchan culture that ignores that sul'dam can channel is sufficiently simlar to cooperate with the WT. That's why I mention channelers controlling other channelers as the common culture.**

You could look at it that way. If you wanted to be simplistic. In Seanchan its not channelers controlling channelers, whatever you think. Its government and culture controlling channelers. Saying that both institutions are channelers controlling channelers is like saying Sul'Dan =Amryllin.

**"The Seanchan and AS have signifigant similarities as well as signifigant differences." Specifically, they are similar in that coersion is used to control channelers by other channelers.**

You say channelers, I say government. It wasn't a Sul'Dan that enslaved the Marith'Dammae, it was Hawkwings empire. The Dammae are property of the Empress, may she live forever (or other various nobles). Seanchan is more properly an example of non-channelers controlling channelers. That is going to be the lingering difference between Seanchan and Aes Sedai.

**What fact have I made up. My thesis is that the WT uses coersion by channelers on channelers.**

So you brought up the Seanchan for no particular reason?

**The WT is no stranger to coersion. I'm sure that you agree. The Seanchan do not in fact collar animals (which you also surely agree) and in fact also merely use coersion, more completely and more expertly, but still ordinary coersion.**

Again, everyone uses coercion. This isn't news. Once again, I challenge you to name a single authoritative organization (Randland or Real World, your pick) that doesn't use coercion.

**Why? The Tower let her go, and did not "watch and cow" her. Hence, your assertion is false. Clear and simple.

Where is your quote that no one watches Else? Show me such a quote (not that it affects my theory, see above). **

You have said that channelers are watched by the WT. This is your assertion. Else is a channeler. If your assertion is true then the WT would be watching Else Grinwell. Since its your theory, the burden of proof is on you. You provide quotes saying that Else was watched. All I have is that she was put out of the tower once it became clear she was not Aes Sedai material. I cant find anything saying she WAS watched so its just as reasonable for me to assume she wasn't.

**The point of my theory is that Seanchan and the WT actually have a lot in common because both sides have a long tradition of controlling those who channel to benefit society and maintain the power that channeling brings some. And that both groups are or are going to very very soon start calling into question the traditional ways that control was established an enforced and that when they do this, more common ground might exist in the end then there is now.**

So your saying that Seanchan are going to start questioning the enslavement of Dammae? That Aes Sedai are going to start doing things like, say for example, swearing fealty to the Amryllin Seat? Wow, im impressed. Ya know what. I theorize that Rand will take Callandor out of the Stone of Tear. Hey Callandor, can you provide me some quotes?

**Yaga Shura: "Well, i know I didn't make the original statement, but remember when Nynaeve was about to take her accepted test and Sheriam tells her that if she starts then decides she can't go on, she will be put out of the Tower for ever with enough silver to last her for one year. That's a get out clause no marath'damane ever got."

So Sheriam says. And Sheriam also has a bunch of funny business, like not asking questions about grey men, being tortured, etc. And even if it were true, an AS said it, maybe you get the silver and a private eye and if you don't hook up with the Kin within a year (so that you can be kept track of long enough to be faithfully suspecting of staying low profile). Without positive evidence that free agent non-AS non-Kin channelers are tolerated and left free to live (not just "free to go", quite different), then I'll stick to the historical evidence.**

This is hard.... let me think... i know i can come up with a name.... wait i cant. How about every Windfinder ever? And you can't say that the Aes Sedai didn't know they could channel because they do now.

**And what about Elaida's "everyone report to the WT or you will be stilled" order. Everyone of sufficient power is tolerated only so long as they are held sufficiently obedient to the relevant power structure, no more and no less. Same deal for both continents.**

How many hundred Aes Sedai are disobeying Elaidia's report to the WT order? What exactly has she done about it? Nothing.

**It's a winnowing process to get the only truely dedicated people who want to be Aes Sedai. The Seanchan have no such means of this at all or anything similar. You want out of being a damane -- you pray to be killed, since you can't do it yourself.

More assumptions without evidence or quotes. What about burning out? You are going to stay leashed when burnt out? Why? Does an a'dam even work if you burn yourself out? Can a sul'dam even prevent you drawing too much of the OP?**

Egwene was unable to harm ANYONE while she was collared. She couldn't even touch anything she considered to be a weapon. And about the other, the Sul'Dan and the Dammae are linked. The Sul'Dan controls exactly how much of the OP the Dammae draws and the Sul'Dan can not forcibly burn the Dammae out.

**A single example Callandor, do you have textual evidence?**

I really don't see the need to at all -- all my examples are obvious ones. This should be one fact, you know like Rand being the Dragon Reborn kinda stuff, that is obvious to even you.

Maybe you just think that textual evidence is something people with weak theories have to come up with? If you have a claim, back it up.**

Callandors fun to argue with but your more fun. Without the books in front of me, or anywhere near me I thought of not one, but two examples supporting Callandors claim. I believe that things like the Sul'Dan link and Rand being the Dragon Reborn should be considered general knowledge and don't need quoting.

**Because she paniced after agreeing to continue through her test. She failed. She was kicked out of the Tower for it. And I guess you are going to say that she was "watched and followed" all these years... you know when the Kin have all but been forgotten.

Good guess! She was watched and followed enough to know that she was cowed into not using the OP openly and then she was ignored. It's the "you are free to live and channel, if and only if you do so only in a way that we approve of", the exact same deal that the Seanchan give you. **

My turn to demand quotes. When is it ever said that Berowin was watched after leaving the WT? You make an assumption, while ridiculing others for doing the same?

**Actually, her "family" is probably dead, and no one is watching her (well, maybe Moridin). She probably didn't even board a ship ... Compulsion has it's benefits, after all. But the fact that she isn't followed and watched as would happen to normal accepted is a good sign that she isn't who she claimed to be. I could be wrong about Else, I've never paid that much attention to her because I didn't care, I guess**

Provide evidence that Else's family is dead. And why the HELL would Moridin (who was still ISHMAEL at that point) be watching her? Compulsion? On who? You say everyone is dead. You assume her family is dead and are unable to provide any evidence.

Grreeaatttt: 2006-01-05

I would like to say that your theory seems sound, i like!

Don't you think though that as the title is called the Knife of Dreams that it should have more to do with it?

A reply would be very helpful to this lost traveler

ShadowbaneX: 2006-01-06

Not really as this theory is more about the end of the series and doesn't have much to do with this book at all.