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at is Gaidal Cain

by Great Lord of the Dark: 2005-07-05 | 4.2 out of 10 (5 votes)

Previous Categories: Birgitte - How, Why, and What Will Happen

Mat is Gaidal Cain. Sort of.

This entire theory was inspired by two pieces of 'evidence'. The first piece of evidence is the following passage told from Mat's POV: "That was one of the things about Birgitte; she would nudge him in the ribs and point out a pretty girl for his eye as readily as any man he had ever known, and expect him to point out in turn what she liked to see, which was generally the ugliest man in sight. Whether or not she chose to go half-naked today—a quarter, anyway—she was... well, a friend. A strange world, it was turning out to be. One woman he was beginning to think of as a drinking companion, and another after him as intently as he had ever pursued any pretty woman, in those old memories or his own. More intently; he had never chased any woman who let him know she did not want to be chased. A very strange world."

Seems innocent enough, doesn't it? But now you have to take my word for the second piece of evidence, for which I do not have the book in front of me. The book I refer to is of course Robert Jordan's 'Conan the Destroyer', based on the movie of the same name.

Yes, that is the first book he wrote for Tor, the one that made Harriet his editor for the first time. But that's a different love story...

In the novel 'Conan the Destroyer', the young blond princess asks Conan about his lost love Valeria, who died in the first movie, shot by Thulsa Doom's poison snake-arrow. Conan hesitates, wondering how he could describe Valeria, a woman who would always point out a girl with a nice bottom, or large breasts, just so that he wouldn't miss such a pretty sight. Valeria, the only woman he would ever love. It's not a direct quote, but something very similar to it is there, I remember clearly.

Years ago, reading ACoS for the first time I made this connection, based on this passage of text alone, always waiting for the day I could get my hands on my Conan novel again to verify it. But with KoD coming soon, and no hope of getting my novel back by then, I feel I have to finally put this important piece of RJ self-plagiarism forth for your evaluation.

Mat and Birgitte were Conan and Valeria in one of their previous lives.

I know we'll have to explain the how and why, so let's try keep it (relatively) quick:

1. Ripped Away

I believe the Pattern allowed for Moghedien's ripping Birgitte from TAR. That's why Gaidal disappeared before Birgitte's unfortunate encounter with Moghedien. He too was removed from TAR in an abnormal fashion and is now in Mat's adult body. There's a certain odd logic to this given that, "He is usually born well before me-so I know my time approaches again when I cannot find him-and I usually hate him at first sight in the flesh. But we nearly always end lovers or wed. A simple story, but I think we have spun it out in a thousand variations." I think this is just another variation, one in which they don't have to grow up, just get torn out and live as adults. RJ will not keep these lovers apart.

2. Mat's memories

The Eelfinn put a lot of men's memories in Mat's head. They may not be able to affect the waking world, but I bet they could grab a guy in TAR. Especially if that guy had been to the Tower of Ghenjei in a previous life. Say around the time of Manetheren and the Ten Nations. I'd say Birgitte learned about Eharoni High Princes, the difficulties of leaving the Tower of Ghenjei and such other details from firsthand experience. Her lover Gaidal was therefore also alive at that time, with the opportunity to enter the Tower and meet the Eelfinn and donate his memories for their future use. When the memories began to emerge in Mat's head, Gaidal began losing his own memories' until he could no longer exist. Now he's just a part of Mat. The next section analyzes this in detail.

3. Timing.

Here are the relevant dates to consider:

Jun 8 999 NE, Mat enters the red doorway in Rhuidean

Jun 14 999 NE Rand finds Mat hanging in the courtyard in Rhuidean.

Jun 16 999 NE Mat fights Trollocs at Imre Stand.

Jun 29 999 NE Nynaeve meets Gaidal Cain and Birgitte in TAR. This is Gaidal's final appearance in TAR.

Aug 12 999 NE Darkhounds attack Mat at Rhuidean.

Aug 13 999 NE Nynaeve meets Birgitte in TAR (behind the scenes)

Aug 17 999 NE Nynaeve meets Birgitte in TAR (ch 14 FoH)

Note from the two quotes below, how Mat's new memories didn't take hold immediately, but required time to blend with his own memories, to become part of Mat. They start as waking dreams. Two months later, Mat can tell that the clutter has become organized, they now merge seamlessly with his own.

A quote from Mat on Jun 16: "Before Rhuidean his memory had been full of holes. Casting back in his mind then, he would be able to remember walking up to a door in the morning and leaving in the evening, but nothing between. Now there was something in between, filling all those holes. Waking dreams, or something very like. It was as if he could remember dances and battles and streets and cities, none of which he had ever really seen, none of which he was sure had ever existed, like a hundred pieces of memory from a hundred different men. Better to think of them as dreams, maybe-a little better-yet he was as sure in them as in any of his own remembrances. Battles numbered the most, and sometimes they crept up on him in a way, as with the crossbow. He would find himself looking at a piece of ground and planning how to set an ambush there, or defend against one, or how to set an army for battle. It was madness."

A quote from Mat on Aug 12: "The memories that had once cluttered his head like raisins in a cake now blended with his own. In one part of his mind he knew he had been born in the Two Rivers twenty years before, but he could remember clearly leading the flanking attack that turned the Trollocs at Maighande, and dancing in the court of Tarmandewin, and a hundred other things, a thousand. Mostly battles. He remembered dying more times than he wanted to think of. No seams between lives anymore; he could not tell his memories from the others unless he concentrated.

That last line reminds me a lot of Fain and Mordeth, how they began as separate entities, and eventually blended together to create Ordeith. But the important part is that Mat's memories took time to become part of Mat, and not just a piece of some other man's life.

So, on Aug 17, here's what Nynaeve and Birgitte have to say: "I have not seen him for some time. I think the Wheel has spun him out again. It always happens so." Expectation and concern both touched her voice.

"I do not know, Nynaeve. Time here is not like Time in the waking world. I met you here last ten days gone, as it seems to me, and Elayne only a day before. What was it for you?"

"Four days and three," Nynaeve muttered.

"You see, Nynaeve? The flow of time here can shift in larger ways, too. It might be months before I am born again, or days. Here, for me. In the waking world it could be years yet before my birth."

“I told you. A day in Tel'aran'rhiod can be an hour in the waking world, or the other way round.

A later quote reveals: “This is not Tel'aran'rhiod.” It was not a question, but Elayne nodded, and Birgitte sank back with a long sigh. “I remember everything,” she whispered. “I am here as I am, and I remember. All is changed. Gaidal is out there, somewhere, an infant, or even a young boy."

If Birgitte thinks he could already be a young boy, that suggests he could be one. Meaning that Gaidal's appearance in TAR days earlier doesn't discount his being reborn in the waking world at an earlier date. The discussion between Nynaeve and Birgitte seems to indicate the same. I know it sounds weird, but in this case, I have to go with the expert's opinion, someone who's lived in TAR for millenia, who knows the rules, no matter how odd it seems. I also have to wonder if temporal rules for dead Heroes in TAR are different than those governing real people, like it's not confusing enough already.

4. Ugly

Mat is heroic, so it's hard to picture him as ugly, but he hasn't been healed in a while. Instead he gets injuries sewn up by his manservant (Nerim was his serving man, and mended his master as often as his master's clothes; as a seamstress, the man was a ham-fisted cook). So lots of ugly scars, refusal to get Healed, plus the possibility that he is fated to lose an eye, means that Mat is getting uglier by the day.

5. Swordsman

Mat has an ashandarei or staff, Gaidal wields a sword or two. Oh well, can't have everything. But Mat sticks with what he grew up with, not with what the men in his head used, which is likely swords, though expertise in all weapons is now Mat's, so he could switch to swords fairly easily.

6. Tuon

Yes, Mat is fated to marry Tuon. Marriage and love are two different things. Mat seems just the type who might sneak off behind his wife's back for a little time with a blonde warder to the Queen of Andor. I figure this is where the prophecy "The Last Battle done, but the world not done with Battle" comes in. Seanchan vs. Andor as they fight over Mat. Sounds funny to me!

In summary, RJ is a romantic, and he won't let Birgitte live without her Gaidal. He must be around, as an adult. The clue lies with the first fantasy novel he wrote that brought him together with the love of his own life. Gaidal entered the Tower of Ghenjei 2000 years ago, allowing the Eelfinn to access his memories and dump them in Mat's head, where they percolated for two months until the mindmeld was complete.

For your further enjoyment, here's some other samplings of Mat and Birgitte interacting. Ah, young love!

TITLE: Crown of Swords CHAPTER: 28 - Bread and Cheese That was the beginning with her. Any other woman he had ever known would have demanded to know thanks for what, and then explained why none were necessary at such length that he wanted to cover his ears, or upbraided him at equal length for thinking they were, or sometimes made it clear she expected something more substantial than words. Birgitte just shrugged, and over the next two days, something startling occurred in his head.

Birgitte leaned toward him on the bench. "Best be wary," she murmured. "That widow is looking for a new husband; the sheath on her marriage knife is blue. Besides, the house is over there."

He blinked, losing sight of the sweetly plump woman who rolled her hips so extravagantly as she walked, and Birgitte answered his sheepish grin with a laugh. Nynaeve would have flayed him with her tongue for looking, and even Egwene would have been coolly disapproving. By the end of the second day on that bench, he realized he had sat all that time with his hip pressed against Birgitte's and never once thought of trying to kiss her. He was sure she did not want to be kissed by him—frankly, considering the dog-ugly men she seemed to enjoy looking at, he might have been insulted if she had—and she was a hero out of legend whom he still half-expected to leap over a house and grab a couple of the Forsaken by the neck on the way. But that was not it: He would as soon have thought of kissing Nalesean. The same as the Tairen, just exactly the same as, he liked Birgitte.

Shaking his head, he tried to focus on what was important. Other men's memories, of battles and courts and lands vanished centuries ago, filled holes, in his own, places where his own life suddenly went thin or was not there at all. He could remember fleeing the Two Rivers with Moiraine and Lan quite clearly for example, but almost nothing more until reaching Caemlyn, and there were gaps before and after, as well. If whole years of his own growing up lay beyond recall, why should he expect to recollect every woman he had met? Maybe she reminded him of some woman dead a thousand years or more; the Light knew that happened often enough. Even Birgitte sometimes tickled his memory. Well, there were four women here and now who had his brain tied in knots. They were what was important.
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Comments

1

Tamyrlin: 2005-08-11

The idea is fun, but I don't believe Mat is Gaidal, in other words, the soul of Gaidal is not in Mat nor merging with Mat. I would go as far as to believe Mat has some of Gaidal's memories, which is why Birgitte tickles his memory, possibly such strong memories that he feels such a kinship. Mat has part of Gaidal in him, but I think Gaidal is out in another person...or ripped out. I think there is a higher probability that Gaidal has been ripped out too...although, it would appear the Bonding saved Birgitte, so maybe not. I would focus your discussion on Birgitte's recollection of how they are always together in every turning as far back as she can remember. If we assume she can remember lives from a previous turning, then it could stand to reason that she has been ripped out before...but wouldn't she remember being ripped out before? She was quite distraught, as though this had never happened to her before, as far as she could recall. Lots of gaps, which you readily admit, but I think you should have pushed Mat as having many of Gaidal's memories, to the point that he has become like him, creating a Gaidal/Birgitte like relationship.

2

Souvrashan: 2005-08-11

Nice theory, but... its got holes.

If Gaidal Cain and Mat's soul got shoved together, there should have been much more mixing of viewpoints. Instead, we have the same old Mat walking out of Ruidean. Mat got what he wanted, his holes in his memory filled, not a second soul. If Gaidal had been “ripped out”, then the transition would have been sudden and complete, and he wouldn't have shown up in TAR again.

To explain the Birgitte/Mat chemistry, RJ is demonstrating Birgitte's personality as a soldier, as one of the guys. Mat, as the Gambling Soldier archetype, gets along well with her. RJ was simply trying to introduce us to a new character who was radically different from others we had met. Lets face it, Birgitte's very individual.

Most of the evidence you mentioned seemed to work against you. Mat denied that there was any attraction between the two of them, instead comparing it to the friendship he has with another guy. Someone you can trust to stand by you. Gaidal couldn't have leaked over into Mat, not and show up in TAR.

So, again, nice theory, well stated, but not likely.

3

Wompat: 2005-08-12

i like the idea, but i agree with Tam that it is far more likely that Mat has some of Gaidal's memories, after all, doesnt Mat remember fighting against a general and then remembers being him at a later date? I think this shows that the memories come from more than one person.

4

Callandor: 2005-08-12

**Seems innocent enough, doesn't it? But now you have to take my word for the second piece of evidence, for which I do not have the book in front of me. The book I refer to is of course Robert Jordan's 'Conan the Destroyer', based on the movie of the same name.**

Sorry, GLotD, but out of book references count for as much as nothing to the theories, unless it's to point out a nice influence of a character or nation or whatever (like Mat being similar to Odin, Cairhien being similar to France, etc.), in my book ;)

**I believe the Pattern allowed for Moghedien's ripping Birgitte from TAR. That's why Gaidal disappeared before Birgitte's unfortunate encounter with Moghedien.**

I would agree, since I feel it doesn't disrupt their pattern at all -- after all, he was still born "before her" if you want to call her appearance a birth, and she won't be terribly older than him when he comes of age to have a love story play out in a new fashion.

**I think this is just another variation, one in which they don't have to grow up, just get torn out and live as adults. RJ will not keep these lovers apart.**

I could see him being torn out by Moghedien, but most likely he would die, since there wasn't a bonding Aes Sedai present to save him. But Mat? You'll have to do a heck of an explanation, and I'm already not buying it :P

**Especially if that guy had been to the Tower of Ghenjei in a previous life. Say around the time of Manetheren and the Ten Nations.**

If Gaidal Cain went to the Tower of Ghenjei it would be interesting, but I don't see the Finn controlling his soul because of that -- just memories of those before. The memories of Gaidal being in Mat would be strange enough (and quite cool -- could explain his horsemanship), but not all of Gaidal, as this would seem to be, not just "memories".

**If Birgitte thinks he could already be a young boy, that suggests he could be one.**

Yeah, but young boy, is not "young man" or even "man" as surely Mat would qualify as ;). Personally, I'd say "young boy" would refer to maybe 2 years old, even then, it's stretching credibitly given what RJ has said elsewhere.

**Meaning that Gaidal's appearance in TAR days earlier doesn't discount his being reborn in the waking world at an earlier date.**

Careful, GLotD. Are you claiming that time in tel'aran'rhiod has in fact reversed itself for this instance? RJ has firmly stated that that does not happen. The speed of time maybe different, but you don't go in on Tuesday and come out on Monday.

**Mat is heroic, so it's hard to picture him as ugly, but he hasn't been healed in a while. Instead he gets injuries sewn up by his manservant (Nerim was his serving man, and mended his master as often as his master's clothes; as a seamstress, the man was a ham-fisted cook). So lots of ugly scars, refusal to get Healed, plus the possibility that he is fated to lose an eye, means that Mat is getting uglier by the day.**

LOL! Sorry, but that's very weak GLotD :P

Mat's been getting female action even with those "ugly scars" while Cain isn't refered to as just "ugly", but "ugliest man ever seen" by Nynaeve. That's a very big leap.

**Mat has an ashandarei or staff, Gaidal wields a sword or two. Oh well, can't have everything. But Mat sticks with what he grew up with, not with what the men in his head used, which is likely swords, though expertise in all weapons is now Mat's, so he could switch to swords fairly easily.**

But there is this:

**TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 37 - Imre Stand

"Mat was vaguely aware of Rand with that fiery sword suddenly in hand, but then he was sucked into the maelstrom himself, wielding his spear as spear and quarterstaff both, slash and thrust, haft whirling. For once he was glad of those dream memories; the way of this weapon seemed familiar, and he needed every scrap of skill he could find. It was all chaotic madness."

So, it seems Mat does draw from his memories about the ashandarei.

**Yes, Mat is fated to marry Tuon. Marriage and love are two different things. Mat seems just the type who might sneak off behind his wife's back for a little time with a blonde warder to the Queen of Andor. I figure this is where the prophecy "The Last Battle done, but the world not done with Battle" comes in. Seanchan vs. Andor as they fight over Mat. Sounds funny to me!**

If you read very asstutely into how RJ shapes the "love interests" of the main characters (this is very pointedly obvious with Perrin and Faile, and a bit with Rand and Elayne, Min, and Aviendha), you'll see that they at least once refer to their interests eyes as being able to "drown in them" or of the like. Mat has similar references to Tuon's eyes:

**TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight, CHAPTER: 28 - A Cluster of Rosebuds

"You don't play very well, Toy," she said mockingly. Despite the tone, her big, liquid eyes considered him coolly, weighing and measuring. A man could drown in eyes like that.**

Also, c'mon. RJ is a sap for love stories, and those fated to marry (look to Elayne, whom you know people have said is NOT in love with Rand with blatant quotes to the contrary, Min, and Aviendha) even if they've only had a glimpse or so, find love in the end.

**In summary, RJ is a romantic, and he won't let Birgitte live without her Gaidal. He must be around, as an adult.**

I agree, and it is still possible, even if Cain has been spun out in the real world. Personally, I just don't think we will see it on screen -- going to be one of those hanging threads (yes, by this I mean that Birgitte will survive the Last Battle).

**If we assume she can remember lives from a previous turning, then it could stand to reason that she has been ripped out before...but wouldn't she remember being ripped out before?**

Well, it could be that she was last ripped out in memories that are quite faint and faded.

5

Anubis: 2005-08-12

Mat cant be Gaidal because Gaidal cant be Mat. That made sense two seconds ago.

6

therobotbadger: 2005-08-12

I don't see why this theory is necessary. Birgitte tickled Mat's memories because she was at Falme when he blew the Horn. Maybe Mat has some of Gaidal's memories from the Eelfin, but what of it? Does that mean he and Birgitte are destined to be together? Obviously not, because Mat is destined for Tuon. I don't think this theory has any validity, and even if it does, it tells us nothing useful about the story.

7

mako0424: 2005-08-12

too many holes, we know mat will marry tuon, so not very romantic for Birgitte, and they are always in love.

also the two swords thing, birgitte always used a bow and Gaidal always a two sword combo, but mat seems to be anti-sword and more ashandarei/quarterstaff

8

terez: 2005-08-12

The biggest problem that I have with this theory is that RJ is building up Mat and Tuon to actually have feelings for each other, not just to have some fancy state marriage. And that Mat clearly thinks on Birgitte as "one of the guys." Though it was very well written. :)

9

Lauric: 2005-08-12

I would have to agree that most likely Mat and Gaidal are two seperate beings...however, I'd like to toy with the idea.

It does stand to reason that, since Birgitte was ripped from TaR (an uncommon event most likely), her memories have been slowly disappearing where if she was spun out, the memories wouldn't be there.

Gaidal, if he was indeed put into Mat's head by the Finn, wasn't really ripped out so much as taken out (another uncommon event, most likely). So if he was casually taken out, it does stand to reason that his memories would come about slowly instead of either all at once, then disppating.

10

Laughingman: 2005-08-15

Umm, Am I the only one that spotted Gaidal Cain as soon as he showed up? Olver is painted obviously as not only Gaidal Cain but probably Ta'veren also.

Gaidal Cain is referred to several times as being short, shorter than Birgette, broad shouldered, 'Dog-ugly' with two swords crossed on his back.

1. Olver is short for his age. Is learning multiple styles of fighting from all of his 'uncles'. Considering that none of the other characters has a two weapon fighting style, that seems to be something that he might pick up in the future. Has the exact same broad mouth and big ears as an earlier description of Gaidal Cain has.

2. Every woman states a confusing amount of protectiveness towards him.

3. Birgette mentions that Gaidal Cain has been spun out of the world of dreams already. When asked how long ago. Birgette replies that the timelines are funny in the world of dreams. (paraphrased, I don't have the books here in my office)

Anyway, I could go on and on, but if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck, its probably a duck.

11

JakOShadows: 2005-08-16

Laughingman: All that evidence you gave was very good circumstantial evidence, but given that there isn't much of a similar situation to compare this to it makes it hard to believe. I do think that Olver has something special about that can't quite be placed. The way everyone seems to have taken him in is very good evidence of that, but it could just be that he's a very charming little boy. I do not think him being Gaidal Cain is completely out of the question though. The only way we'll ever find out is if Birgitte really gets to know Olver, which we might not see.

12

Anubis: 2005-08-16

**Umm, Am I the only one that spotted Gaidal Cain as soon as he showed up? Olver is painted obviously as not only Gaidal Cain but probably Ta'veren also.**

Basicly oliver is 6+ years old, which means that Gaidal was encountered in TAR while oliver was still alive.

13

Callandor: 2005-08-17

**Umm, Am I the only one that spotted Gaidal Cain as soon as he showed up? Olver is painted obviously as not only Gaidal Cain but probably Ta'veren also.**

Olver is not Gaidal Cain.

**Q: Is Olver Gaidal Cain?

RJ: No. I didn't really think that this would last as long as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason for being there besides being a red herring, though.

Q: He's too old.

RJ: Yes. Time in T'A'R and the real world run at different rates, but it never runs backwards. You may spend an hour in T'A'R, and a day has passed when you get back, or you may spend a day, and an hour has passed when you get back, but you'll never go in on Tuesday and come back on Monday.

Q: Is the difference in time constant?

RJ: No. It's fairly random. Sometimes fast, sometimes slow, sometimes the same as real time.

Q: It's different for different people, then?

RJ: Yes. Unless they're together in T'A'R. Then the same amount of time passes for them obviously.**

**Anyway, I could go on and on, but if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck, its probably a duck.**

Well, it's a red herring, so quack.

**Basicly oliver is 6+ years old, which means that Gaidal was encountered in TAR while oliver was still alive.**

He's said to be ten or about there in Winter's Heart.

14

Great Lord of the Dark: 2005-08-17

See, that's the beauty of my theory. Mat was seen while Gaidal was stil active, but then Gaidal moved inside Mat, and disappeared from TAR. Thus Mat became Gaidal! So there's no contradiction because Gaidal and Mat were both at Falme, the change came later.

Also note that Gaidal is one of many dozens of men whose memories have been integrated into Mat's head. Mat is not just Mat and Gaidal, he is Mat and Gaidal and dozens more Manetheren men. So don't expect the Gaidal personality to show strongly in Mat, he accounts for only a small percentage of Mat's memories/soul.

(the use of the word 'soul' is bound to cause at least a dozen off-tangent replies!)

15

Laughingman: 2005-08-20

Well that was a fine red herring then. Thanks for the update on that interview from RJ. Going off of that interview then, unless Gaidal Cain has been spun INTO someone as GTotD suggests. Then he's out there as a very small child somewhere and Moghedian indeed got her revenge . . . hmmm, or maybe Birgette will get offed and almost immediately spun back up to bring the weave back into balance?

16

William Seeker: 2005-08-20

Ok, I don't know if anyones mentioned this yet, but Mat blew the Horn. When he blew the horn Gaidal Cain came. If Mat was Gaidal Cain, Gaidal Cain wouldn't have come for the horn. If you get what I mean.

17

Great Lord of the Dark: 2005-08-20

In The Great Hunt, Mat wasn't Gaidal yet, they were separate people. The Eelfinn changed that, so that now he is Gaidal, as much as anyone can be him anyway. No contradiction, William.

18

Yaga Shura: 2005-08-21

"Ok, I don't know if anyones mentioned this yet, but Mat blew the Horn. When he blew the horn Gaidal Cain came. If Mat was Gaidal Cain, Gaidal Cain wouldn't have come for the horn. If you get what I mean."

Yes, this has been mentioned, and GLotD has offered his explanation. Look up.

19

William Seeker: 2005-08-21

I still don't think Mat can be Gaidal Cain. No, offense or anything. But, Nyneave meets Gaidal Cain in the World of Dreams, in Fires of Heaven, after Mat's already been through the doorway

20

Anubis: 2005-08-21

I think if mat was gaidal he would be hitting on briggite, not tuon...

21

Anubis: 2005-08-21

Actually GLOTD here we go.

Min saw briggite connected to Gaidal. Always connected, always lovers. Sometimes hes older, sometimes hes younger, but they are always connected.

Mat is going for Tuon, and doesnt see briggite in that way, to him she is just one of the guys.

If mat is gaidal then mins prophecy is broken, and therefore something impossible happened and therefore mat cant be gaidal.

22

Callandor: 2005-08-21

**Also note that Gaidal is one of many dozens of men whose memories have been integrated into Mat's head. Mat is not just Mat and Gaidal, he is Mat and Gaidal and dozens more Manetheren men. So don't expect the Gaidal personality to show strongly in Mat, he accounts for only a small percentage of Mat's memories/soul.**

But why would the inclusion of memories into Mat's head, mean that Gaidal's soul is no longer at all in tel'aran'rhiod? We've seen two methods of how Heroes leave tel'aran'rhiod, and a third is heavily implied:

1. Natural reincarnation at the timing of the Wheel.

2. Ripping out of souls by another (almost assuredly a channeler by requirement) in tel'aran'rhiod -- whether this is actually the Wheel and/or Pattern's choice playing delightful irony is up to your own philosophy of how much the Wheel and Pattern take into account.

3. Implied -- the destruction of the soul.

Now, Mat very well may have memories from Gaidal's previous incarnations -- might be questionable, but hard to disprove, and it is an interesting thought anyway -- however, the major question would be why would this effect Gaidal in tel'aran'rhiod?

With that, why is it assumed that once Gaidal started loosing memories, he evaporated (for lack of a better word) from tel'aran'rhiod? If he went to the Finn in his rebirths, they would have his memories and sensations, but how would this effect his soul awaiting rebirth?

Furthermore, with this:

**Her lover Gaidal was therefore also alive at that time, with the opportunity to enter the Tower and meet the Eelfinn and donate his memories for their future use. When the memories began to emerge in Mat's head, Gaidal began losing his own memories' until he could no longer exist.**

How does that remain constant with what you said here, GLotD:

**So don't expect the Gaidal personality to show strongly in Mat, he accounts for only a small percentage of Mat's memories/soul.**

I mean after all, Mat apparently got enough of Gaidal's memories to (somehow) make Gaidal disappear from tel'aran'rhiod. That's a lot of memories. You would think his would account for the largest portions of Mat's memories.

Still maintain, interesting idea, but can't see it working in this series at all with what we know.

23

brother of Battles: 2005-08-22

Well, we already know that you can't have two souls in one body. Also, we know that you can't take one soul out for another one. Following this line of thought, how could you suggest the "Blending" of the two souls. That would basically dispose of those two souls and become one soul with both personalities. As far as I've seen, Mat has not picked up any of Gaidal Cain's personality traits. From the little we know of Cain, he is quiet, reserved, and down to earth. Mat might slightly have those traits....but I don't think they are really a part of his being.

This theory is a little too far fetched for me to even consider. Even if the Finn merged the two souls, it would happen immeadiently. Not gradually over time. Birgitte would not have seen and talked to Cain in T'A'R if Cain's soul was being transmigrated. And, if it was happening, Cain would be getting some of Mat's memories durring this transition and he would have mentioned something to Birgitte. Thier love harbored no secrets.

24

Great Lord of the Dark: 2005-08-22

Anubis, Min is always right. Birgitte and Gaidal are always, and will always be together. Just because they aren't now, doesn't mean they won't be at some later point. Mat was also told he had to marry Tuon, he wasn't told she would be his true love. Love and marriage are two different things.

Also, note how in Conan (first post at the top), RJ showed what Conan's ideal woman would act like, then see how Birgitte acts exactly the same with Mat. They're not star-crossed lovers, but their relationship is unique, compared to Mat's relationship with whatever other ladies he's tumbled. It can grow into something more.

25

Great Lord of the Dark: 2005-08-22

That's a good point Callandor, and I'm not sure I have a good answer. Why would Gaidal vanish if a part of him was taken and put into Mat, yet Mat's personality would not be affected by the insertion of that part? I can only guess because of what part it was that was taken. Mat doesn't seem to have gained any new behaviours or modified views on anything, except as it pertains to battle. Taking that battle prowess from Gaidal, could be removing the essence of what made him a Hero of the Horn. But that is just a wild guess.

An even more wild guess is to ask oneself, what Gaidal and Birgitte wished for if they entered the lands of the Finns in the Age of Manetheren. If Gaidal wished to be with Birgitte forever, then the granting of that wish could be stuffing him in Mat's head in time for him to meet up with Birgitte when she got ripped out (presuming the Finns can see the thread of your whole life and all that).

Once you allow for a wish to take place, you can explain just about anything. And as I pointed out in the topmost post, there is enough circumstantial evidence linking those two with Finns in the time of Manteheren.

But for the hell of it

26

Anubis: 2005-08-23

But if Mat is Gaidal Cain then Gaidal Cain is not Mat. Briggite loves Gaidal. Not Mat with a bit of Gaidals personality. That would diminish the person who is Matrim Cauthorn.

27

Callandor: 2005-08-23

**Well, we already know that you can't have two souls in one body. Also, we know that you can't take one soul out for another one. Following this line of thought, how could you suggest the "Blending" of the two souls. That would basically dispose of those two souls and become one soul with both personalities.**

That's one of the few facts we know for sure that can happen. Padan Fain is one body with two souls (his own, and Mordeth's). They blended together. But there are vast differences between what happen to Fain, and anything that happened to Mat. Similarities, yes, but big differences.

**As far as I've seen, Mat has not picked up any of Gaidal Cain's personality traits.**

The closest one I can think of is Gaidal Cain is a natural horseman -- Mat since getting the memories seems "born on a horse." But it could easily be from other people as well, and not just Cain.

**Mat was also told he had to marry Tuon, he wasn't told she would be his true love. Love and marriage are two different things.**

Oh, c'mon, anyone can see that Mat and Tuon are coming to love each other.

**Also, note how in Conan (first post at the top), RJ showed what Conan's ideal woman would act like, then see how Birgitte acts exactly the same with Mat.**

And it might mean something if it was the same series -- but it isn't ;)

**Mat doesn't seem to have gained any new behaviours or modified views on anything, except as it pertains to battle.**

Just horsemanship seems to be it for "Cain-like" abilities -- but he does draw on the memories at first for using the ashandarei.

** If Gaidal wished to be with Birgitte forever, then the granting of that wish could be stuffing him in Mat's head in time for him to meet up with Birgitte when she got ripped out (presuming the Finns can see the thread of your whole life and all that).**

If that was the case, Mat would be taking Gaidal's entire soul into his head presumably -- not just memories. If that happened, we'd be seeing Mat a lot more like Fain, than like he is.

28

Anubis: 2005-08-24

**Also, note how in Conan (first post at the top), RJ showed what Conan's ideal woman would act like, then see how Birgitte acts exactly the same with Mat.**

Right, and not having read Conan the Barbarian, I am going to assume that a Barbarian Warrior and a Reluctant Hero have the same exact tastes in women. Thats not a streach.

29

JakOShadows: 2005-08-24

Another that seems to contradict this is that in tEotW, RJ strong implies that Mat is King Aemon reborn. Because when he goes into battle he shouts "Carai an Caldazar". Moraine not only knows what it means but can tie it to the battle in the last defense of Manatheran, so his knowledge about battle and fighting are coming from that I think. And we see that memory coming up more and more in tDR, so to me I believe he is King Aemon reborn. Then the memories he got from the finns added to his knowledge of battle, but I think after these two things are taken into account, it strongly disproves the idea that Gaidal Cains memories can change Mat. And I just remembered on more thing, the gambler type personality matches a lot more with King Aemon than Gaidal Cain, so I think he has definitely taken on the traits King Aemon, not Gaidal Cain.

30

Karasien: 2005-08-24

Although I cannot find the exact quote, (and when I do I will post it), but in an interview with Robert Jordan, a reader asked if Olver was Gaidal Cain. (Keep in mind that Olver is around ten years old, hanging around Mat, and the ugliest child ever) Jordan's answer was somewhere along the lines of 'No, Olver is not Gaidal Cain, he's to old.'

And although it is nice to think that Brigitte will get her ugly love in the end, Mat is not it, as two souls cannot share the same body. (What about LTT and Rand you may ask, they are the same soul, and also very twisted from maddness, so let's leave them alone.)

Briggitte 'tickles' Mat's memory because he blew the Horn, and although he remembers that much, he does not remember much detail, he is meerly remembering her as he saw her on Toman Head, although he doesnt know it.

So that, at least in my mind, disproves your theory, though a nice and well thought out one it is.

One last thing:

It is quite possible and a highly ignored one at that, that when the Horn is blown, by Mat at TG, Brigitte will fight, and when the Hero's leave she can be pulled back in, and be reborn again in time to still be with Gaidal. After all we all know that TG can't be more than a year away right? So assuming that Gaidal is an infant or young boy now, Brigitte will keep the pattern.

And now that I have written that all out, it makes a lot less sense than it did in my head....

31

Karasien: 2005-08-24

I found the qoute:

"Q: Is Olver Gaidal Cain?

RJ: No. I didn't really think that this would last as long as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason for being there besides being a red herring, though.

Q: He's too old.

RJ: Yes. Time in T'A'R and the real world run at different rates, but it never runs backwards. You may spend an hour in T'A'R, and a day has passed when you get back, or you may spend a day, and an hour has passed when you get back, but you'll never go in on Tuesday and come back on Monday.

Q: Is the difference in time constant?

RJ: No. It's fairly random. Sometimes fast, sometimes slow, sometimes the same as real time.

Q: It's different for different people, then?

RJ: Yes. Unless they're together in T'A'R. Then the same amount of time passes for them obviously."

And Another:

"RJ's assertion that Olver is not Gaidal and the reason why (the timing discrepancy) means that by the same logic, any other possible candidates as old or older than Olver are also automatically eliminated. Thus, neither Mat nor Uno (the next two most popular characters suggested) can be Gaidal."

There you have it. Sorry I had to burst your bubble, but all bubbles pop eventually.

(Quotes courtesy of darkfriends.net FAQs)

32

Great Lord of the Dark: 2005-08-24

I'l try squeeze all this in one post:

Callandor, Mat's dad could get the best of a Taren Ferry man when it came to trading horses. I'm sure Mat's horse knowledge is more from there than Gaidal. (Nothing like shooting myself in the foot, eh?)

It's Conan the Destroyer, the official novelization of the movie. RJ's first fantasy novel. Not Conan the Barbarian, which was written by someone entirely different. Keep my unverifiable information straight!

Now about that quote Karasien, you will learn my bubbles do not burst easily, if ever. RJ is talking about people moving back and forth from TAR to the waking world. A return trip, so to speak. He's saying time travel into the past isn't possible for someone moving back to the waking world, if they started out there. Birgitte says something very different. She says Gaidal could be an infant or a young boy. She remembers all her past lives at this point, and how she was reborn into each of them. Are you saying she was mistaken? Are you sure RJ and her are talking about the same thing?

Maybe she is saying a Hero can be reborn into an already born child. Is there a cut-off point at which the Hero can not be spun into a body? The moment of conception? of Birth? Six years old, or ten? Why not an adult who comes out of a coma, or just anyone at all, the same way people become ta'veren for a period of time?

I'm afraid all of this, and more, must be addressed before my bubble is even remotely pricked. Like I didn't know about that old interview the day is was done. Hah! Bring it on!

Now here's something new. Can the Horn-sounder actually be a Hero of the Horn? Why not, when the Greatest Hunter for the Horn ever is a Hero of that same Horn he's searching for!

"Now, the greatest of the Hunters is Rogosh of Talmour, Rogosh Eagle-eye, famed at the court of the High King, feared on the slopes of Shayol Ghul . . ."

"Rogosh Eagle-eye, a fatherly looking man with white hair and eyes so sharp as to make his name merely a hint. Gaidal Cain, a swarthy man with the hilts of his two swords sticking above his broad shoulders. Golden-haired Birgitte, with her gleaming silver bow and quiver bristling with silver arrows. More. He knew their faces, knew their names. But he heard a hundred names when he looked at each face, some so different he did not recognize them as names at all, though he knew they were. Michael instead of Mikel. Patrick instead of Paedrig. Oscar instead of Otarin."

I'm out of time for now...

33

Callandor: 2005-08-25

**And although it is nice to think that Brigitte will get her ugly love in the end, Mat is not it, as two souls cannot share the same body. (What about LTT and Rand you may ask, they are the same soul, and also very twisted from maddness, so let's leave them alone.)**

Well, you're incorrect. Two souls can share the same body, and we've known this for sure since The Dragon Reborn (if you wish to be conservative -- really it was since The Eye of the World, when the event happened), with Padan Fain. He has two souls in his body: his own, as Padan Fain, and Mordeth's which tried, but failed, to take his body for its own and merged with it.

Slayer is another canidate that might turn out to be two souls in a body, but that's unknown.

As for Rand, you're right, he's one soul, not two; instead he has two personalities.

**It is quite possible and a highly ignored one at that, that when the Horn is blown, by Mat at TG, Brigitte will fight, and when the Hero's leave she can be pulled back in, and be reborn again in time to still be with Gaidal. After all we all know that TG can't be more than a year away right? So assuming that Gaidal is an infant or young boy now, Brigitte will keep the pattern.**

Birgitte is in the flesh, and spun out in the world, however she arrived there. She'd have to die in order to return to the tel'aran'rhiod, if she was still bound to the Horn as a Hero (I myself feel that, yes, she still is).

However, one thing people do look over a lot is that Birgitte isn't 40 years old or anything. She's still young. Gaidal in this Age can just have a fling with an older Birgitte, and then once they both die, they return to await rebirth again. After all, Gaidal is always reborn before Birgitte, not that he's always older (thought, one implies the other). And Gaidal was reborn (if he wasn't simply destroyed by Moghedien of course) before Birgitte.

34

mako0424: 2005-08-25

i always wondered about that, when the Horn is blown again, will the previous heroes who are tied to the horn respond, well yes, but what about the unghostly ones, who are in the real world, ie. Birgitte and Gaidal.

Birgitte, a full grown woman ripped from the T.A.R and the pattern, and Gaidal who was spun out again and reborn in the normal fashion.

Well this always presented a quandry to me, because i assume birgitte will be at the Last Battle anyways because of being Captain-General, Warder, and everything else, but what about Gaidal, is some baby or something gonna show up nowhere wielding two swords, doubtfully.

Someone suggested earlier that they would go back to T'A"R and then come to the horn, but this is far fetched and wrong in my opinion. What happens to their bodies and every thing else.

I dunno, but if Gaidal is still a baby or young boy, there is the distinct possiblilty that both the reader and birgitte will not meet him until long after the last HBattle, is done and over with.

Any interviews or ideas about Heroes of the Horn, and when their alive and everthing else would be greatly asppreciated for my own knowledge thanks.

35

Karasien: 2005-08-25

(Try to take it easy guys, I'm new!! ;))

**Maybe she is saying a Hero can be reborn into an already born child. Is there a cut-off point at which the Hero can not be spun into a body? The moment of conception? of Birth? Six years old, or ten? Why not an adult who comes out of a coma, or just anyone at all, the same way people become ta'veren for a period of time?**

Alright, GLotD, So, I guess it depends on your beliefs, as to when a soul is given. Some people think that a soul is given at the moment of conception, others at birth, others when a name is given, and others are undecided leaving it somewhere in between. Personally I'm somewhere between birth and naming, either way you believe, though a soul is given to a BABY.

Maybe I just have no clue, (which is quite possible, the heat is getting to me) but this person's previous soul, if the Hero could be in fact injected into a person at any point in thier lives, where would it go? Would it just shove over and make room? or would gracefully step aside and back into the Wheel? or would they 'meld' and create the Hero and person in one?

If the last is the case, then would the Hero really be the Hero at all? Or would they become a different Hero?

( I know so many questions, I ask alot, as I am bored, and often confused.)

Now, Callandor:

**Well, you're incorrect. Two souls can share the same body, and we've known this for sure since The Dragon Reborn (if you wish to be conservative -- really it was since The Eye of the World, when the event happened), with Padan Fain. He has two souls in his body: his own, as Padan Fain, and Mordeth's which tried, but failed, to take his body for its own and merged with it.**

Thank you for the correction, though I am not wholly convinced that two souls can share a body. Wouldnt they battle for control, or at least argue a little? (I've not met someone with two souls yet, but if I do, I intend to ask them.)

**Birgitte is in the flesh, and spun out in the world, however she arrived there. She'd have to die in order to return to the tel'aran'rhiod, if she was still bound to the Horn as a Hero (I myself feel that, yes, she still is).

However, one thing people do look over a lot is that Birgitte isn't 40 years old or anything. She's still young. Gaidal in this Age can just have a fling with an older Birgitte, and then once they both die, they return to await rebirth again. After all, Gaidal is always reborn before Birgitte, not that he's always older (thought, one implies the other). And Gaidal was reborn (if he wasn't simply destroyed by Moghedien of course) before Birgitte. **

I meant that she would be killed, and her soul would be pulled back, allowing her rebirth to follow Gaidal, but yeah, I see your point.

So yeah.......it's hot, I'm tired, please excuse my retardedness.

36

Callandor: 2005-08-26

**Callandor, Mat's dad could get the best of a Taren Ferry man when it came to trading horses. I'm sure Mat's horse knowledge is more from there than Gaidal. (Nothing like shooting myself in the foot, eh?)**

Horse knowledge, yes; horsemanship, no. Rand remarks specifically about this, because Mat is seen guiding Pips with his knees as if he was "born on a horse"; I know this quote exists, and believe it's in The Shadow Rising, but sadly have no more searches left.

**It's Conan the Destroyer, the official novelization of the movie. RJ's first fantasy novel. Not Conan the Barbarian, which was written by someone entirely different. Keep my unverifiable information straight!**

Yes, I know Jordan wrote for the Conan series -- but that was the Conan series, not the Wheel of Time. Unless you want to say were a possible influence comes from, fine, but to use it as proof for a theory isn't going to fly with me.

**Birgitte says something very different. She says Gaidal could be an infant or a young boy. She remembers all her past lives at this point, and how she was reborn into each of them. Are you saying she was mistaken? Are you sure RJ and her are talking about the same thing?**

If RJ says Cain cannot be Olver because he's too old, then Cain cannot be Olver because he is too old. Birgitte's phrasing could just mean that Cain could be a baby or infant that is a few months old.

**Maybe she is saying a Hero can be reborn into an already born child. Is there a cut-off point at which the Hero can not be spun into a body? The moment of conception? of Birth? Six years old, or ten? Why not an adult who comes out of a coma, or just anyone at all, the same way people become ta'veren for a period of time?**

A Hero is no different than anyone else when they are reborn -- don't think they are different. RJ says that a soul enters the body as a fetus, or whenever the body becomes capable of sustaining life. You don't get Heroes being put into a body of a person who is 9 or 10. Just doesn't happen.

**Now here's something new. Can the Horn-sounder actually be a Hero of the Horn? Why not, when the Greatest Hunter for the Horn ever is a Hero of that same Horn he's searching for!**

Sure he can -- but a different one than Cain, or possibly even a new addition.

**i always wondered about that, when the Horn is blown again, will the previous heroes who are tied to the horn respond, well yes, but what about the unghostly ones, who are in the real world, ie. Birgitte and Gaidal.**

The same thing that happens when Rand was present when the Horn was sounded: nothing. They're in the world, in the flesh, reborn. Sounding the Horn isn't going to do crap to them -- they're out there alive.

Now, it's a personal idea of mine that if a Hero who is reborn, like Rand and I would easily add Birgitte (though unproven yet), and the Horn is sounded, they will be there as a part of the sounding. They won't appear as a ghost or whatever, but they will take place in the battle or whatever was needed to sound the Horn.

Cain would be doing nothing -- he's still a kid, if not destroyed. If he's in the world, he's meant for other things past the Last Battle.

37

hagglund: 2005-08-26

**However, one thing people do look over a lot is that Birgitte isn't 40 years old or anything. She's still young. Gaidal in this Age can just have a fling with an older Birgitte, and then once they both die, they return to await rebirth again. After all, Gaidal is always reborn before Birgitte, not that he's always older (thought, one implies the other). And Gaidal was reborn (if he wasn't simply destroyed by Moghedien of course) before Birgitte.**

actually, it is mentioned that he is always older or much younger... i don't have the quote but i think birgitte said it herself...

38

Ashaman Thunder Leader: 2005-08-26

You forget that Mat's vague memories of Birgitte came mostly from Falme, and most of Mat's old memories came from battles involving armies, not just a couple of heroes, and they have almost nothing to do with a love anywhere near Birgittes and Gaidal Cain.

39

Callandor: 2005-08-27

**Thank you for the correction, though I am not wholly convinced that two souls can share a body. Wouldnt they battle for control, or at least argue a little? (I've not met someone with two souls yet, but if I do, I intend to ask them.)**

Have you read any of the point of views of Padan Fain? Mordeth has merged into Fain's body, and they've become "one" as close to the word as possible -- right about Lord of Chaos they stop changing so often and quickly. Before that -- it's war. This is why Fain's accent keeps changing from Murandian (Fain) to that of a "northerner" nobleman (obviously Mordeth) from The Eye of the World throughout The Fires of Heaven. Niall comments on this, Dain Bornhald comments on this, Elaida comments on this, and I'm sure others have equally commented on this distinct feature of Fain.

**actually, it is mentioned that he is always older or much younger... i don't have the quote but i think birgitte said it herself...**

Birgitte said in The Fires of Heaven, that Gaidal is always reborn before her, that's how she knows her time is coming soon. Later on in the book, she's ripped out. Doesn't invalidate that.

However, Min has a viewing of Birgitte in Winter's Heart that says that Birgitte and her adventures are connected "to an ugly man who was older that she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man."

Again, not invalidated at all, instead re-inforced.

40

Great Lord of the Dark: 2005-08-27

Ashaman Thunder Leader, that would be because the Finns did not place Gaidal's memories of Birgitte in Mat's head, only Gaidal's memories of battles. For my theory to work, he CAN'T remember her from a previous life as Gaidal.

41

William Seeker: 2005-08-28

hagglund; you're right, and Min also had a veiwing about it.

42

hagglund: 2005-08-30

**Birgitte said in The Fires of Heaven, that Gaidal is always reborn before her, that's how she knows her time is coming soon. Later on in the book, she's ripped out. Doesn't invalidate that.

However, Min has a viewing of Birgitte in Winter's Heart that says that Birgitte and her adventures are connected "to an ugly man who was older that she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man."

Again, not invalidated at all, instead re-inforced.**

fair enough. i wonder what gaidal cain is up to between being spun out and being born though, or does this actually mean that birgitte gets ripped out of T'A'R on a regular basis? i can't help thinking that would be something she'd remember and mention.

43

Callandor: 2005-09-01

**i wonder what gaidal cain is up to between being spun out and being born though, or does this actually mean that birgitte gets ripped out of T'A'R on a regular basis? i can't help thinking that would be something she'd remember and mention.**

No, as far as Birgitte remembers, she has never known that she was a Hero while in the flesh -- IE: never ripped out.

As for what Gaidal is going to do -- who knows. He was put back into the world for a reason, and obviously will not be a force in the Last Battle, so it's something beyond it by at least 7-10 years, if not 15-20.

44

JamieK: 2005-09-03

a note on the two souls point - luc/isam.

"Luc came to the Mountains of Dhoom. Isam waited in the high passes. The hunt is now begun. The Shadow's hounds now course, and kill. (combined they're slayer)

One did live, and one did die, but both are."

- the dark prophecy (The Great Hunt C7).

and padan fain/mordeth, but others have mentioned that.

did anyone answer the point about gaidal being a baby when the last battle comes?

45

dwilson: 2005-09-09

I think it more likely that Olver is a re-incarnated Artur Hawkwing, hes got the big Nose, he is being brought up under the tuteledge of the best general - mat, he also seems to be lucky ie. like a ta-averen (he won that horse race) im sure there is more but havent got books around

46

hagglund: 2005-09-09

**No, as far as Birgitte remembers, she has never known that she was a Hero while in the flesh -- IE: never ripped out.

As for what Gaidal is going to do -- who knows. He was put back into the world for a reason, and obviously will not be a force in the Last Battle, so it's something beyond it by at least 7-10 years, if not 15-20.**

you miss my point. if gaidal cain is ALWAYS reborn before birgitte, yet in some (not only one going by min's viewing) of her adventures he is much younger, what does he do between leaving T'A'R and being reborn? it's most likely unimportant, still it makes me wonder.

47

hagglund: 2005-09-09

...although i suppose he could die as a child falling off a horse or something...

48

Traveller: 2005-09-10

I am kinda not really into this theory, but something I thought I'd just throw out there is that maybe Gaidal Cain is one of the new babies in Emond's Field- I remember Perrin seeing the girl he used to fancy with a baby and a few others. I know this means that the baby must have been born before we read Birgitte saying that Cain has been woven out, but it is important to remember that time IS different in Tel'aran'rhiod. My reasoning? when Birgitte talks about it she says he must be "a baby or a young child", and it has only been a few nights before that Elayne/Nynaeve saw him in Tel'aran'rhiod.

I know this seems a bit random, but all the other ideas to who he is don't make sense to me.

49

caitlin: 2005-09-11

I would say that, yes, it's a plausible theory, except for the fact that Mat is alive when Caine is in Tel'aran'rhiod, and that a merging sould isn't what has happened to Caine before. He's always had his own life and own spirit, independently.

Plus Birgette said something about how Caine would be a little boy feeling lost in the world because he couldn't find her since she was ripped out Tel'aran'rhiod and thus out of the 'recycling-of-hereos' pattern, and Mat is not feeling lost or sad.

50

Callandor: 2005-09-15

**I think it more likely that Olver is a re-incarnated Artur Hawkwing, hes got the big Nose, he is being brought up under the tuteledge of the best general - mat, he also seems to be lucky ie. like a ta-averen (he won that horse race) im sure there is more but havent got books around**

Olver isn't Hawkwing for the same reason Olver isn't Cain. We last saw Hawkwing at Falme, and Olver is older than a year and a half. More than likely, he's not anybody except Olver.

**if gaidal cain is ALWAYS reborn before birgitte, yet in some (not only one going by min's viewing) of her adventures he is much younger, what does he do between leaving T'A'R and being reborn?**

Does it matter? Cain does whatever Heroes do between rebirths.

51

Paddy: 2005-11-23

Heres what i think. Since it seems people can be reborn (Rand is LTT reborn) perhaps, Mat is Gaidal reborn. Before you rubbish it here me out.

I'm not sure, but maybe at some point, LTT was bound to be spun out, just like the Horn heroes are. I'm not saying LTT was one of the heroes, just that he is similar to them, in that he will keep getting reborn over and over again

Now Rand, is the Dragon reborn, hence LTT reborn. *KoD spoilers* Semirhage says that sometimes people could hear there past life selves inside there head. Now Rand didn't become aware of his reborn self until recently, pretty much around the same time as Mat visited the Finns (not sure).

So at this time, LTT was spun out into Rands head, and maybe at the same time Gaidal went into Mats head, but perhaps because of the Finns interference, he has trouble integrating with Mat for a while, so thats why he faded in and out of T'A'R for a while, before disappaearing.

52

Anubis: 2005-11-25

No, Mat is not Gaidal Cain in any way shape or form. RJ has said so. Please just let this theory die so that the main page can be devoted to things that are actually worth discussing. It was decent enough in its time, but now its dead. Let it rest in peace, along with Lanfear Caused Mats Luck, and various others.

53

Callandor: 2005-11-25

**Heres what i think. Since it seems people can be reborn (Rand is LTT reborn) perhaps, Mat is Gaidal reborn. Before you rubbish it here me out.**

Gaidal Cain was at Falme amongst the Heroes -- anyone born before that event and still alive is not Gaidal Cain. Plain and simple.

**I'm not saying LTT was one of the heroes, just that he is similar to them, in that he will keep getting reborn over and over again.**

The Dragon soul is one of the Heroes of the Horn.

**So at this time, LTT was spun out into Rands head, and maybe at the same time Gaidal went into Mats head, but perhaps because of the Finns interference, he has trouble integrating with Mat for a while, so thats why he faded in and out of T'A'R for a while, before disappaearing.**

Lews Therin wasn't "spun" out into Rand's head. Rand IS Lews Therin's soul reborn. It was spun into Rand's body when he was born or as a fetus (whichever you want, but when he was developing as a baby). Lews Therin's soul has been in Rand since then.

Also, Gaidal didn't fade in and out -- Birgitte used to see him in tel'aran'rhiod, and then she didn't anymore.

54

Kordeid: 2005-11-28

Please, in KOD there are plently of references to Brigitte's growing concern about losing Gaidal for all time - that she may lose him forever as he had almost certainly been placed back into the pattern.

Or am I just totally wrong?

55

ThunderWalker: 2005-11-28

I believe RJ has stated that Min only sees the future.

*However, Min has a viewing of Birgitte in Winter's Heart that says that Birgitte and her adventures are connected "to an ugly man who was older that she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man."*

My take on this is, since Birgitte has not been born, Min is seeing futures for many different incarnations, all mixed together. The Younger ugly man is most likely the current incarnation of Gaidal Cain. So, this could very likely be the first time that he is younger than Birgitte.

56

Khazhul: 2005-11-29

I thought Birgitte said before that Gaidal was always born first and she would follow after. She would always hate him at first then eventually fall in love with him. She said this in or right after she left the dream world so she had her knowledge of her previous lives. My take on Mins veiwings is that she and Gaidal are still connected but now the old formula is broken. She will sometimes be born first and maybe sometimes they won't be lovers but just friends, still connected though.

57

DarthRamal: 2005-11-29

I can not recall the book, but didn't Min a mercenary at an inn that was always doing blacksmith puzzles, and wore two swords? He called her Peanut or some such nickname?

I can not think of his name atm.

Anyone?

58

Callandor: 2005-12-01

**I thought Birgitte said before that Gaidal was always born first and she would follow after. She would always hate him at first then eventually fall in love with him. She said this in or right after she left the dream world so she had her knowledge of her previous lives. My take on Mins veiwings is that she and Gaidal are still connected but now the old formula is broken. She will sometimes be born first and maybe sometimes they won't be lovers but just friends, still connected though.**

Thing is, though, the formula is not broken. If Gaidal was in fact spun out, as seems most likely, then it still holds. He was born before Birgitte was "born", it's just that she will be older ;)

**I can not recall the book, but didn't Min a mercenary at an inn that was always doing blacksmith puzzles, and wore two swords? He called her Peanut or some such nickname?**

I believe you mean the Warder Min knows of in Lord of Chaos who came along with her and the Salidar embassy in Camelyn. Believe it was the chapter just before Rand flees for Cairhien, due to the number of Aes Sedai in Caemlyn got to 13.

59

DarthRamal: 2005-12-02

Actually I think the nickname he called her was Cabbage.

60

arcaneix: 2006-02-25

mat cannot be cain.one birgette says he would be an infant or a Small Boy two birgette likes mat she says her and gaidal never like each other at first,and three mat doesnt seem to be ugly,he gets a few too many girls for that

61

MatOdin: 2009-10-28

Great theory, Mat and Birgitte together would be charming, but I don't think it'll happen. But still, great Idea.

62

Chumpacabra: 2010-01-17

Hi, new to the site but been reading the books for a few years now, and though I really do hate to necro a topic like this, I just have to say that I agree with the theory. For starters, I believe Min's viewing of Birgitte is somewhat specific in the age of Gaidal, something along the lines of "She (Birgitte) was linked romantically to a man who was simultaneously twenty years older and twenty years younger than Birgitte herself." Now, while it's true that Birgitte was ripped out of T'A'R as an adult, it might not necessarily (as far as Min's viewings are concerned) make her a true adult. Even though Birgitte was ripped out, Min's viewings might see her as an infant, someone newly brought into the waking world. In this way, Mat would be about 20 years her senior. Now, by the same merit, since Mat didn't get the memories of his previous lives (although truthfully it might simply be the memories of previous adventurers to speak with the Finn, as I know one theory at least seems to claim that they feed off memories) until he was about 20, and Birgitte was ripped out around that time. In this way you could also claim that Mat's memories are "new" to the pattern, and he could conceivably be called 20 years younger than Birgitte in this way, not to mention Mat's death from Rahvin and then rebirth by Rand's balefire also gives some merit to his being 20 years younger than Birgitte. What I'm driving at is that both of these characters share some very curious circumstances. Birgitte has been supposedly torn out before she could be reborn, while claiming that Gaidal Cain was reborn, that he was always born before her, and that he would be a very young man. However, just because something hasn't happened before in the pattern doesn't mean that it will never happen. Maybe some of Mat's memories are of Gaidal Cain and, even though he doesn't fit the traditional bill of being ugly as sin and fighting with two swords, the Pattern is attempting to fix the damage Moghedien caused by ripping her out by keeping Gaidal's spirit close to her. Also, just because Mat was destined to marry Tuon, that doesn't mean that she (or Mat, or Birgitte for that matter) will survive the Last Battle. Perhaps Tuon dies and Mat and Birgitte become romantically entangled. Anyway, just something I think reinforces this theory. If anyone needs clarification (because I realize that what sounds good in my head don't always come out no good) I'd be happy to try.