o Harbor is the new Shadar Logoth
by wattj69: 2004-05-15 | Not yet rated
Previous Categories: So Habor
ok, I'm not real sure about this one, or about whether or not someone already did it. In So Habor, the dead have started to rise and there have actually been events where they have affected the living through deaths, etc. what if this is the beginning of a new Mashador? If Mashador was the power of greed left from the inhabitants of Aridhol all those years ago, then the dead of So Habor could be the beginnings of a new Mashador, and they still have their form because they are recently dead, while Aridhol's dead had been part of Shadar Logoth so long they became a greater whole.
perhaps after Shadar Logoth was destroyed Fain came to So Habor to create a new SL. it takes time to change a town that much, but he's gotten a start on it. he hasn't changed the place enough yet though, or he would have tried to kill Perrin when he was there.
besides the walking dead, it is seen the everyone in the town has basically stopped trying to live, they are dirty beyond belief and can't make themselves just survive as normal human beings, a part of the taint (not that taint, just the best word I can thing of) of SL.
One thing I can think of that doesn't really fit is the attitude of the merchants, if So Habor is gonna be another SL, then it would have to be based on greed, but when they were haggling, it was mentioned that they seemed like they didn't have the heart to keep trying to get more, if it's a new SL, greed would've had them trying to take Berelain for everything she was worth.
I know this is a little jumbled, and there was more I wanted to put in that I forget now, but I think it could work. sorry if it's already a theory, I didn't look as hard as I should of before writing this.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2004-08-19
(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
There are some similarities between So Habor and Shadar Logoth. But there are also similarities between Aridhol and Sammael-controlled Illian. Tenuous, at best.
Your theory seems to say that Mashadar contains the souls of those who died in the last days of Aridhol. I haven't seen anything to indicate that. My interpretation is that Mashadar is a derivitave of the social climate of Aridhol's last days that came to life, in a manner of speaking. It's mindless, and soulless. It's Machin Shin that takes souls, not Mashadar.
And do we have any indication that Fain has been anywhere near So Habor? Quotes would be helpful.
So Habor is eating itself alive, like Aridhol did. But it isn't fanatical zeal that's doing it, it's fanatical fear and hopelessness.
2
snakes-n-foxes: 2004-08-19
I'm probably cheating by doing this, but this the following is pretty much a cut and paste of my post to the 'So Harbour Stain' theory. (changes a bit for this post)
(btw, Aridhol became SL because of the suspicion, distrust, and soul eating evil that the people of Aridhol participated in, not because of greed)
.....................................
My first impression when reading this part of the book was that the 'feelings' generated in So Harbour were very like those generated feelings generated in SL.
There was there was the dead walking (eg, Leah), and the passage where night was falling and everyone with Perrin suddenly wanted to get out of town.
Then there was the suspicion of everyone else by the people of So Harbour.
That all seemed akin to SL - (btw Leah was the Aiel Maiden that Rand thought he saw again)
It doesn't seem an exact fit to me, but then, who knows the exact process by which Aridhol became Shadar Logoth.
Now...Fain...Fain would be able to achieve much of what has happened in So Harbour...we really havent seen him 'infect' people instantly, but we have seen him infect people who have been with him for a long time - like the Children of the Light Fain had with him...The same children who displayed much the same characteristics as the people of So Harbour...Unwashed, suspicious, and lifeless.
Another point is, no one really knows where Fain came from, only that he used to go to the Two Rivers as a trade route. What if Fain lived in So Harbour ?
We have seen Fain create illusions (the two Ashaman)
We have seen fain bind Dark Friends to his will.
We have seen Fain take Myrrdraal.
In So Harbour, What if, by staying there a few weeks here and there(in between other events), he corrupted the people of So Harbour a bit at a time ? What if he bound all the darkfriends in So Harbour to his will. What if he killed some people, then created illusions of them walking ? What if, Fain then commanded the darkfriends in So Harbour to spread suspicion and distrust ?
What if...Fain was trying to create a new power base...or a new safe haven ?
On a final note...I don't think Mashadar swallowed the people of Aridhol in one go, but that it started slowly, and accelerated the more peopel were consumed by it (just seems more logical that way)...this could be exactly what is happening in So Harbour.
3
WinespringBrother: 2004-08-19
My main objection to this is that while we didn't see So Habor on screen until after the cleansing, the timing seems to be off. So Habor looks like it has been going to pieces for a while, but the cleansing was only a short time ago, not long enough to fall apart so quickly like that. Not to mention, how does Fain even know about Shadar Logoth so quickly? He was in Far Madding when Rand did the cleansing, and would have needed to zip over across Murandy and Altara to begin this "quest". Doesn't seem likely.
4
Callandor: 2004-08-19
**If Mashador was the power of greed left from the inhabitants of Aridhol all those years ago, then the dead of So Habor could be the beginnings of a new Mashador, and they still have their form because they are recently dead, while Aridhol's dead had been part of Shadar Logoth so long they became a greater whole.**
Could be, except RJ has said:
**Everyone in SL killed each other. Mashadar occurred after everyone in SL was dead.**
Seems unlikely if it was a new Shadar Logoth, that Mashadar would start while people were still living there.
**perhaps after Shadar Logoth was destroyed Fain came to So Habor to create a new SL.**
1. Why would he? He desires to kill Rand.
2. How did he get there from Far Madding?
**besides the walking dead, it is seen the everyone in the town has basically stopped trying to live, they are dirty beyond belief and can't make themselves just survive as normal human beings, a part of the taint (not that taint, just the best word I can thing of) of SL.**
The dirtiness is a semi-part of the Shadar Logoth evil, but a much larger part of it is the suspiciousness of anybody. Look at Mat in The Eye of the World, and the guards and prisoners in Fal Dara in The Great Hunt. They are "dirty", but they are consumed by suspicion as well; something not really present in So Habor.
5
Dorindha: 2004-08-20
I'm not sure about this, although they do seem to share several qualities. The aspects of SL that are missing are:
- a Mordeth-figure, someone who has effected a change in the mood of the city. AS I understand it, this would be Fain in this scenario, but as someone said, he is a long way away to have heard about SL's demise, and there is no sign of him in the city. Either way - why So Harbor? Aridhol was immense and powerful, surely one of the great cities would be a better target?
- time - the SL transformation was gradual, as the city turned in on itself, became more and more suspicious and shut itself off, So Harbor seems to have been over about a year
- Mashadar, I agree with Frenzy on this one, besides which, other ghosts have been seen in CoT, for which a satisfactory explanation has not been found - surely this is the same or similar
In addition to all this, from the point of view of an author/reader - why would RJ do this again? Shadar Logoth has been done, and to repeat it doesn't add anything to the story!
6
flayer: 2005-05-22
I just wanna add my opinion about the ghost.
I believe them to be a by product of rand running around usind balefire, and "thinning" the pattern, or whatever moiraine called it earlier when rand used it in TSR, i think.
7
Kantuna: 2005-05-22
I think that the theory about Birgitte being ripped from TAR is the right one that's causing the ghosts. There's a thread called "Birgitte and the dead" that should clear this up. As for the So Harbor/Shadar Logoth thing, I don't think it's right. Nice theory though.
8
free will: 2005-05-23
I was thinking about flayer's comment about the pattern being thinned. Now originally SG was just a spot in the pattern thinner than elsewhere. Then there was a hole (Merin) and then they (LTT and the Hundred companions) patched it. Well, what if Rand does thin the pattern as a whole to get the material to cover the bore? What if he has to thin everywhere to get the same thinness as over SG (in which case, I still worry that SL might be yet thinner, al la a SG for the next turning).
I think an over all thinner pattern would have a blight like problem, and problems with the dead everywhere and such. So maybe Rand has to make someplace else attract that stuff, balance and all.
Since the DO needs to be bound in all worlds to be bound in one, maybe all the dead are going to be brought into the wetlands, the heroes of the horn too, a giant battle with the dark one, DO is sealed and Logain does the coup de ta of taking the living into TAR Moses style while Rand converts Randland INTO the new TAR while turing TAR into the new "world", sure the mirror worlds might bite the dust, but that's a way to fix things everywhere at once, just fix it at one place and make it (by making it the new TAR) be everywhere. Destory the mirror worlds entirely so that the DO is bound in all the worlds. Either way, that's a big breaking of the world, isn't Rand supposed to actually do that?
9
JakOShadows: 2005-05-24
The structure for the worlds rj has set up seem to be far more rigid though. Maybe you could change some of the mirror worlds, but you probably couldn't change t'a'r. And also, it seems like the link between the main world and mirror worlds couldn't be changed if they have trouble getting to them anyways. It was an interesting thought, it just doesn't seem feasible though.(it does seem in line with rj's destructive style of the LB)
10
Callandor: 2005-05-24
**Either way, that's a big breaking of the world, isn't Rand supposed to actually do that?**
It seems to much more metaphorical this time around. Like Rand "breaking" the cultures (Aiel especially seen for this) and mixing of Tairens, Cairhien, and Illianers into an overall "Randland mix" and to get them to see it that way.
11
ReDragon: 2007-09-30
Just a point as to how he got there so quickly, if thats what he did, waygates would be my best bet. Elder Haman, or loial and karldin or Rand for that matter, haven't demonstratable secureed all the waygates yet, and I think fain and the machin shin get along fine.
