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More than bravery"

by a dragonburned fool: 2004-10-25 | Not yet rated

Previous Categories: Heroes of the Horn

This theory is concerning the conditions for a soul to be chosen by the Wheel as a Hero of the Horn, the conditions for a person to be a HotH.

The most explicit information about that in the books is the scene in Falme, when Artur Hawkwings said to Hurin:

"'It takes more than bravery to bind a man to the Horn.' Artur Hawkwing's voice was deep and carrying, a voice used to giving commands.

.....

Artur Hawkwing clapped the sniffer on the shoulder. 'Sometimes the Wheel adds to our number, friend. Perhaps you will find yourself among us, one day.' Hurin sat up as if he had been offered a crown." (Great Hunt, Ch. 47)

As I know, it's never said, what exactly is that "more" then bravery required. The only positive thing to say is, that this "more" must be the quality, needed by the Wheel for to use the Hero's soul for It's self-correction purposes. But something about the requirements for becoming a Hero could be given even here. For, when it is said "more then X is needed", most often it means: "it's needed X and also Y".

Possible meaning of the expression "more than bravery is needed" could also be something like "you may think that to be Hero is to do acts of bravery, but it is something different and it is something more valuable then "bravery". In an interview RJ said, that a Hero is not allway somebody galooping to rescue, sometimes a Hero is needed for something quite different from adventurous battle-scenes. But the fact that these bound to the Horn souls are known exactly as "Heroes", that by the call of the Horn all they (except the ones who are incarnated in the moment) come in the form of mounted warriors and when they come they're expected to fight, all that makes me to believe, that the common-sense idea of the heroic is essential characteristic of every Hero of the Horn. HotH may not allways act as what most people will understand under "Hero", sometimes it would be not the purpose for a Hero to be spun out in the world, but all the Heroes, at least in some aspects of their existence, have something to do with what is commonly understood under "Hero" and that in the most stereotype form of it of a galooping armed person who can do impressive rescuing deeds.

Maybe this archetypic "heroic" image is only one of the forms that the HotH can have by circumstances, and by other circumstances they will express their special quality in another form. Maybe the real HotH quality is something only similar to commonly understood heroism, but something more subtle and developed. Maybe the "hero" archetype is only a manner of formal appearance of what the real HotH is. Or maybe the galooping Hero archetype is something of minor importance about the HotH and something completely different is the primary. Too many options are open. But in all cases "bravery" is part of what HotH actually is, and it's the only explicitely known to us part, and it's the only thing we have to start with when theorizing about HotH.

Now few questions can be risen: Why the Wheel needs exactly "heroes" as corrective mechanisms (including non-channelers in that channeling world)? Why they are known to the wide public as exactly the ideal image of an adventurer Hero? Why "bravery" is in the picture, the "bravery" that can be connected more with the potential to disbalance things even if the deed is grandious rescue (why not rather leaders, negotiators, tradition-keepers, guardians or other form of more connected with preservation of a balance figures?)? What kind of "bravery" is needed for a HotH? So what can the "bravery" in sense of what is commonly understood under the deeds of a "heroic" adventurous character, what in that quality can be usefull for a so large-scaled and complex entity like the Wheel?

One of the first answers coming to mind would that the Pattern will need rescue-heroes to solve difficult situation for exactly the same reason an ordinary story will need such a hero. IMO this is not a good explanation. It's true that brave persons would be useful for specific task, but the glory and the seen to everybody intiative (the "bravery") is completely unneeded for the Pattern. The unvisible background agents would do Pattern's work much more effectively. A political manipulator or a low profiled leader of the sort Aleis or Lini would do much more for correcting actions of the scale useful for the Wheel then any singular imressive rescue-deeds. These silent agents would do better work for the Wheel, because they will make deeper changes, changes in the minds and habits of many people, they will correct the reasons and not only certain surface effects of the disbalancing processes that the Wheel wants to change. But there are no silent world-changers among the Heroes coming to Falme, all of them are notorious foreground-deeds makers. There must be another reason for this kind of persons to be used by the Wheel. What then? A couple of aspects of the bravery-hero idea can give an answer:

1. One thing in the vulgar Hero-concept that can be connected with the most serious and metaphysically deep reasons of the Wheel, is the fact that the "Hero" is somebody most deeply impressing large masses of people, a figure that inspires the imagination of the world's population. A Hero figure from the gleeman's tales is a figure thousands of young (and some not so young) ones dream to be. Wiser people, who want not the risks and misfortune, an ideal-hero manner of actions will cause one to suffer, and so will equate "hero" to "fool", even these people would feel sympathy to heroic characters and will estimate it as a sort of an ideal - maybe practical unreachable, but an ideal. So the gleeman-tale-Heroes control the form of what people usually dream about, what they admire. Actually we see that gleemen change the actual deeds of the Heroes, so that e.g. Birgitte cannot recognize herself in the stories about herself. This means, the people have some expectations what to admire, and they edit the historical Hero deeds according to these ideals. I.e. people's dreams are prerequisites to the real Hero's life, the real Hero only fits into the archetype already present. So why the real living Hero is needed? The reason is that without the detailed Hero examples, the dreams of people are too vague, too undefined. The example Hero is needed to give to the dream a realistic form and all the details required for a complete image. Also a vivid image of a hero will make the archetype realistic-looking, people will easier think that such heroism CAN find it's place in the reality, including maybe their own reality... And it is common for archetypes and dreams, that even secondary details assotiated to them, modify their meaning a while or add something to this meaning. The vague archetype can have many options to realize itself, but when the archetype is assotiated with a detailed figure, this options are precised and reduced. There are still different options to interprete such figure, but compared to the vague archetype they are significantly less, and they are significantly shifted also. Assotiating an archetype with a definite form changes the functoining of the archetype in the human minds, who adopt this assotiation. The exact form a person assotiates with divine creatures, ideals of beauty, ideals of rulers and ideals of adventurous deeds determinate a lot of aspects of the person's reaction to broad range of social situations and ideal concepts and it reflects in many ways one's very personality. So a living Hero can give a form to an archetype, and the Pattern will definitely have lot of use of such deep and large-scaled influence. Historical living Heroes are not necessary needed for that purpose, a good fiction book can create as good example of a Hero's archetype as a living hero. But if the Pattern wants to set the form it wants, it would be easier for it to spun out a living hero, then to control a gleeman or other storyteller. Because storytelles are inspired about the details from other stories already existing, while the living Heroes are the ones whos actions inspire story-telling.

Weird Harold has a theory, that the sole human dreams and admiration are what actually creates a Hero's bond to the Wheel, that it's the reason for the Heroes to reside in TAR, and that the appearance of Heroes in TAR has nothing to do with the real appearance of living heroes but is the construct of a mass of storytellers and listeners in their dreams. It's too radical a theory, it cannot explain the binding of a particular soul as a hero and it cannot explain the precise details in Hero's TAR-appearance, but it has something true in it. The HotH have too much of the form of human imagination in them, they have too much of the form of an ideal. And HotH has too much connection to glory. I don't believe that this post-mortal glory is what makes the HotH, but I believe that it is one of the things required for a HotH to become such. It is not the mass of human dreams that binds the Hero to the wheel, but the Wheel calculated the mass of dreams it would need and choses the proper soul to play the role of the Hero and to give flesh to the reqiured archetype. The glory of the Hero through the dreams of humans strenghtens back the bond of the HotH to the Wheel.

This could have implication on why the HotH have the precepts to not interfere into the life of the living ones: if a TAR HotH does so, he/she declines a little bit from the figure strenghtened by the people's dreams. Birgitte does so, her bond to the Wheel temporary weakened, and that gave Moghedien the opportunity to rip her out...

2. Another thing about bravery could be a particular philosophical aspect of the virtue to be brave. To have this virtue is to be able to do what must be done (in case you know what it is, of course) when the circumstances press you to make an "wise" compromise. The lack of this virtue - the vice of cowardness, is when one knows what must be done and agrees that it is the right, but some circumstances makes the coward to act otherwise, to act not the way he/she believes it's right, but the way he/she's forced to do. A brave one would do what must be done, whatever happens. The usefullness of this virtue for Pattern's self-correcting mechanism is this independence of the Hero's actions from the pressure of circumstances: the Hero is one, who is reliable against circumstances pressure and would act energically and resolutely according to predeterminated principle. The Wheel uses Heroes when the trend of the world's historical process goes in a wrong direction: i.e. when the mass of the circumstances push all the singular threads into the wrong direction. For to do something against this case the Wheel has to use a thread especially resistent to the violence of the circumstances, a thread who will remain on balanced stands when all persons are influenced to change their stands.

Here is an advantage of "Heroes" before diplomates and other flexible world-changers. Wise and sensitive approach to the problems is connected to the tendency to make comromises, to follow the general trend of events: laissez faire, laissez passer. The Wheel have problems exactly when the dominating mass of events pushes in a wrong direction, so the wise diplomate would act in the same direction and would reflect in the actions and reactions the wrong principle of history. The Hero would be straithforward and unceremonious and so would be more independent of the wrong trends.

There are lot of stubborn people, who would be independent of the circumstances just because they are unsensitive. They will do what they know, but will not react in any manner to the real nature of the circumstances, and so their reactions would be inadequate and ineffective. Such inadequate actions would cause inpredictable consequences form the situations, but they would be predictable and manipulable by another people and so such people would rather increase the chaos and the wrong trends and so would be not usefull for the Wheel. The ideal solution would be a brave person, who adequately understands the situation and can effectively counteract, but would nevertheless not bend before the pressure of the circumstances. A combination of high sensitivity and high straightforwardness is needed. I guess persons with such virtue would be rare and the Wheel will need to carefully seek for them and stores them for use on demand. The Wheel would chose for it's purposes a soul that developes such attitude. Such virtue would also be expressed as heroic virtue, because the doing what must be done while understanding the complete degree of the danger requires greater degree of courage, and having the compormiseless attitude against such situations will make the hero more succeptible to stuck in dangerous deeds. They would appear a degree more brave then common bravery. Maybe that could mean "more than bravery".

Another trait of Hero's virtue would be faithfullness to some principles that are somehow connected to ballance preserving. Such virtue would be a sense of justice for example.

More about virtues: they are usually more difficult to live with then with vices, especially the virtues assotiated to Heroes. We know that the Wheel keeps a ballance between good and evil. For regarding virtues there would be rather a disbalance against evil, maybe the Wheel would arificially interfere to import more virtues of some more difficult categories in the Heroes spun out. That could be additional purpose of using gleeman-tale-like heroes.

3. Another thing about bravery would be the effect of an extraordinary heroic deed on the structure of Pattern. A heroical deed must be 1. rare, extraordinary (else nobody will consider it to be a heroic), but 2. not extraordinary due to excentricity, but extraordinary fitting into the situation, extraordinary in, so to say it, a healthy manner; 3. it has to be very effective, it has to solve a heap of processes with a single strike; 4. it has to restore some balance; 5. it has also to be a very intensive and energic action requiring immense efforts (easy success is not qualified as heroic, aven if very impressive) and endurance. How would these deed specifics look like in the threads of the Pattern? The Pattern is the way the threads of particualr lives and events are interwoven between each other in the common world's situation. Decisive in the pattern would be the mass of threads and the mass of events, and it usually makes the people's lives to follow the usual routine, the Pattern usually doesn't allow people to decline too much from the average set of human actions. So (1) an extraordinary deed would look unusual in the mass of the Pattern, it is something to attract the attention. The Pattern allows lot of various forms of behavior: different cultures, different social rank, different occasions. So the Pattern is tolerate to deviations from "normality, it just stores them into manners of behavior. It maintains variety of life-forms without a clearly distinguishable norm for what is "normal" and "healthy". The Wheel maintains rather a cultural relativism. While it is characteristical for the deeds known as heroical, that looking at them persons with different presupposition have common respect about them and become more definite criteria about right and wrong, Hero's deed becomes some kind of temporary norm, an evidence... So, (2) that it an exceptional form for the Pattern, and going against the common rule, it (4) maintains a ballance, i.e. an explicite task for the Wheel. Also, (3) more efforts looks like living for few hours more then years of easy life. Maybe (5) for a thread it would look also more intensive, more outrageous, equating in importance a greater volume of pattern material. Briefly a heroical deed would be something very specific in the metaphysical nature of the thread, that would have more "weight" than much greater mass of other thread-material. That would attract the "attention" of the Wheel much more easier than other deeds and threads.

So even if people living more silent life have the appropriate qualities for to fulfil the Wheel's special tasks, the Wheel would rather choose ones, who did heroic deeds, for they would be easier to pick up then the others. It must be not an accidental deed, for to be useful a candidate for HotH must be able to act correspondingly whenever he stucks in a situation. But among the persons with such an ability Hero will become the one who by some other reason (maybe accident) becomes into situation and does a heroic deed. So maybe there are many good men like Hurin in Borderlands, but exactly Hurin is there at Falme and after them exacly he has to bring the news to Shienar, and that makes him into the center of the events and he has chance to express his ability to react like a HotH would, and so he has the chance to become a new HotH.

...

Summarizing, the Wheel needs for the HotH class of autocorrections the following prerequisites: 1. Accepting of the correction by the minds of the population and guaranteeing of support to the correction by people: This is fulfilled when the HotH fits into an archetype. 2. Reliability as a tool of the Pattern and ability to have the influence whatever happens (for to fight the unhealthy historical trends, that would shift the norms and principles of the balance and therefore need independent principle to restore the balance): This is fulfilled by finding a soul with heroic type of virtues. 3. Wheel as a non-sentient mechanism, rather a computer-like entity, has to find the needed soul and to start the process of binding the Hero to the Wheel based on it's inner mechanisms. So the Wheel needs it's own naturaly privileged components for to identify and trigger the Hero-binding process. These starting points are the heroic deeds, that make the souls to HotH.
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Comments

1

Tamyrlin: 2004-12-22

(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
Of course Gleemen exaggerate their stories. They're entertainers, not historians. And no good storyteller lets the story rest on its own merits.
One thing you may want to consider is Birgitte. Her soul is the same, no matter how she made her way into the living world. Is she doing "heroic" deeds? And is there a minimum quota of heroic deeds needed to define a Hero?
I'm remembering my ancient Greek, and i believe it was Aristotle (though i could be wrong) who wrote the "rules" of drama. One of those rules is that the Hero had to be larger than life. That's why your average Greek hero wasn't in the least bit average (Odysseus, Agamemnon, Achilles, etc.) Even tragic heroes like Hecktor and Oedipus were kings and/or demigods. Heroes are worshipped, and people aren't going to worship an average joe.
I like the concept that a hero is brave enough not to bend to trends, yet smart enough to do the right thing. That combination is rare enough to deserve heroship.

2

Jay al Ender: 2004-12-22

Does this mean there could be an Evil horn to recall the evil villains of the past? I know that the heroes have to obey the horn sounder, but for the most part the Heroes are good people. So.......... If the good guys could find the evil horn they could have the bad guys fighting for them too!

3

minalth: 2004-12-23

what about the horns from different worlds?

just came to me.

could be interesting

4

Satin alEllien Moonsong: 2004-12-24

that's a cool idea. how many evil generals and brilliant spies must have existed in the AoL who weren't bound in the sealing? hundreds? thousands? surely some of them must have done something above and beyond the call of duty? in any war there are hero's on either side. Who are we to suppose that only the side of good had hero's? If anyone has ever read the dragonlance series, i think the example of Steel Brightblade is perfect to illustrate that you dont have to begood to be noble.

5

Aendur: 2004-12-28

Perhaps I'm oversimplificating here, but how do we know the HotH aren't just the ta'veren/most powerful ta'veren from the past? We know Hawkwing was ta'veren, Birgitte could be at some point (and probably was) because it said people can be ta'veren for only part of their life (and being ripped out of T'A'R might've skewed where she was supposed to be ta'verening, as I doubt there is much room for other ta'veren with the Trinity/Tripod/whatever). And since people can BECOME ta'veren who were not before, new people (e.g. Hurin) can join the Horn. Perhaps ta'veren-ness is the "more than bravery".

6

a dragonburned fool: 2005-01-04

***And is there a minimum quota of heroic deeds needed to define a Hero?***

It was not my idea. Rather a heroic deed, because of being disturbing the normal flow of life and affecting the threads of another people in one single point, would be in the centre of some Pattern's knot and so would be easier to pick up. I don't think here is something about a numerical treshold. Rather from two possible candidates the one with more "heroic" deeds will be bound to the Wheel.

The idea about the ta'veren as prerequisite for being bound to the Wheel: it is interesting and not improbable. However it seems that one who was a ta'veren in one life will be a ta'veren again in the next (so LTT-Rand), while most Heroes seem to be not ta'veren in their common incarnations. Yes, there are no too good proofs for ta'veren being constant for a soul, but there are some indications making it likely. And there is one of the three strongest ta'veren of the 3Age, who is significantly not mentioned among the Heroes of the Horn: Mabriam din Shareed the founder of the Organization of the Ten Nations and the most famous AS of the Gray Ajah.

About the idea of the evil anti-horn, I cannot agree. The Heroes are not Light's champions but Wheel's, and if the Shadow had it's Horn, so the Shadow would need a mechanism comparable to the Wheel. The Shadow apparently has no own anti-Wheel, and it therefore cannot maintain also an anti-Horn. The Balance thing doesn't play here, because the purpose of the Heroes is to return the Balance when it is threatened, and there is no reason for the Heroes themselves to be balanced by anything. Actuallu the Heroes are balanced by the reasons making the spinning in of the Heroes necessary. And Heroes fight for the good side, because it's the Creator who created the Wheel (and all it's mechanisms including the Heroes), not DO.

Horns in different worlds - I doubt, because in the Mirror world Rand visited, they traced the trail of the Horn's passing through the original world. I.e. the mirror world senses the Original world's Horn as if it is it's own Horn. That makes me to think that the Horn is rather a constant for the worlds.

7

fistandantilus: 2005-01-11

I don't think you can assume that all Heroes are taveren. At Falme, Hawking tells Uno, not any of the taveren, that sometimes the Wheel adds to the number of Heroes. He had three taveren to choose from, and he told Uno.

And I don't think it would be relative to any number of heroic deeds, rather to the quality of the deeds done. For example:

A man is about to stab your friend in the back, and you tackle the would be assasin and turn him in to the athourities. He is incarcerated, and your friends all look at you like you are a hero.

You are a villager. The armies of the Shadow have your village surrounded and are poised to strike. The commander of the Shadow offers to leave the village untouched, provided you turn over a single orphaned child. The rest of the villagers want to turn the kid over, but you sneak him out in the night, risking you own life and knowing that your village may pay for your actions. The village is destroyed, and the survivors hate you for what you did.

Which is more heroic?

8

Callandor: 2005-01-13

** I don't think you can assume that all Heroes are taveren. At Falme, Hawking tells Uno, not any of the taveren, that sometimes the Wheel adds to the number of Heroes. He had three taveren to choose from, and he told Uno.**

It was actually Hurin who was told this. But you're really looking at it skewed. Who is Rand al'Thor? He's a sheperd whose a ta'veren. Doesn't seem so dignified. But when you realize that ta'veren is the Dragon Reborn, you get the picture.

Judging by which is more heroic, is really pointless to me and more of just matter of opinion. The Wheel needs certain things done, and ta'veren are put out to do these things. Whether all the ta'veren are Heroes of the Horn, I don't really believe; there can be a person who is a ta'vern for a weeka nd do a few things that have effect later on, and they are not a Hero of the Horn reborn or anything. But I do believe that all the Heroes are ta'veren for the jobs that they have. Whether that's negotiating a treaty, conquering the entire known world, performing rescues after rescue, or whatever, they are ta'veren nevertheless.

A person being added is just a person who did enough of something to help out with the performing of needed events, along with a ta'veren or on their own. However that's decided, who knows. The Wheel flips a coin, swirls around in a circle and throws a dart at a bunch of names on the wall, whatever; it's done.

9

ImmDude123456: 2005-01-13

There are often times in these books where a certain character will remark to another how brave he is or looks, but the complimented character will either, out loud or not, mention that they are about to faint from fright.

I'm stating that maybe "bravery" is not a requirement for becoming a HoTH.

I believe that it is simply doing what needs to be done at the time it needs doing. Almost a "in the right place at the right time" kind of thing.

Birgette often mentions that she doesn't feel any braver than anybody else. She just apparently values the lives of others as much as her own and is willing to risk her life to save another's.

So, all in all, I think that this more than bravery is a good list of priorities and the instinct to protect that which is good, in people and inanimate objects, no matter how afraid you might be.

10

a dragonburned fool: 2005-01-18

**And I don't think it would be relative to any number of heroic deeds, rather to the quality of the deeds done.**

Exactly. When it is hard to be a Hero in a situation, it depends on rarely to be found inner virtues to do something even if the situation drives the hero in different direction. Such a virtue will make form the hero a suitable and reliable tool for the Wheel's purposes, better than a person who tends to bend under the circumstances. That's why the Wheel would pick up a "more heroic" person from the possible ones. However, if the Wheel has two persons with the same level of heroity, it would rather pick up the one with more impressive for outer beholders deed, just because such deed will easier attract Wheel's attention for it will have larger resonance on other threads. The outer heroic appearance of the deed is usefull for affecting the minds of other people.

**But I do believe that all the Heroes are ta'veren for the jobs that they have. Whether that's negotiating a treaty, conquering the entire known world, performing rescues after rescue, or whatever, they are ta'veren nevertheless.**

Ta'veren technically is a thread that causes the other threads around him be weaved under unnatural rules. I don't see the need of such chance twisting for all the special jobs like making treaties, conquering the world etc. The Wheel could just place a person with the right character traits and other qualities in a normally developing part of the Pattern and the Hero will be just the right person at the right place. But more important is that in the books we see too many characters except of the three ta'verens, who perform very difficult and very hard to be performed tasks, including making treaties, rescue after rescue of key persons, etc. We have also until now three persons with the Talent to sense ta'veren: Siuan, Logain and Nicola, but no a single other ta'veren except the known trinity is detected until now.

**I'm stating that maybe "bravery" is not a requirement for becoming a HoTH.

I believe that it is simply doing what needs to be done at the time it needs doing. Almost a "in the right place at the right time" kind of thing.**

For one or another reason, all the Heroes of the Horn are extremely brave and very, but VERY famous. It's just a fact. Deed done in the right place at the right time doesn't need to be visible to the wide polulation. Deed made from behind the coulisses could even have better chances to have more effect in depth, because not been opposed directly like most well-visible reforms must suffer. But there are no known subtle low-profile manipulators among those who come called by the Horn. They are all galooping rescuers in bright armor. I attempted to explain this fact in my theory.

11

Callandor: 2005-01-21

**I don't see the need of such chance twisting for all the special jobs like making treaties, conquering the world etc. The Wheel could just place a person with the right character traits and other qualities in a normally developing part of the Pattern and the Hero will be just the right person at the right place.**

Right person, at the right place, at the right time.... sounds exactly like a ta'veren ;)

I am simply using what we have seen. We know of three for sure Heroes that have been in the world, and were ta'veren:

1. Lews Therin Telamon - one of the most powerful ta'veren known and used many times as a reference.

2. Artur Hawkwing - Remarked about being the strongest ta'veren since Lews Therin.

3. Rand al'Thor - granted, Rand is Lews reborn, but he is still a Hero, and still a ta'veren.

All the othere Heroes we have only seen summoned by the Horn or in Tel'aran'rhiod (Birgitte is an obvious acception and could break the correlation, but she does have a unique situatio right now and is difficult to say).

Plus, it just makes the most sense. What is the a Heroe of the Horn's job? To make the corrections to the Pattern to re-align the balance; to cancel out all that humanity is throwing the Pattern off course. They ~alter~ what is happening (if you want to get in a big debate whether they are altering it or the Pattern has weaved it to be altered already; please save it). This is the exact same description of a ta'veren as given in the BWB; if fact it is remarked upon as one of their ~limitations~ because they can only alter, not outright change.

It just makes the most sense for all the Heroes, since they are only spun out at need, to be ta'veren to do the deeds that need to be done. Of course, there can be other ta'veren that are not Heroes (ones for a day or a week or whatever), but all the Heroes seem to be ta'veren.

**But there are no known subtle low-profile manipulators among those who come called by the Horn. They are all galooping rescuers in bright armor. I attempted to explain this fact in my theory.**

No, they aren't. RJ has said specifically that not all the Heroes are heroes performing rescues or some such. We may not have been given a name for them at the time, but RJ has said they exist, so they do.

12

a dragonburned fool: 2005-01-24

Ta'veren is not somebody at the right place at the right time, but one, who twists the laws of probabilities of the events and who changes the manner the threads are weaving between each other. In the books we have plenties and plenties of characters at the right place at the right time. The three super-girls are such case, Min is such case, Moiraine is such case, Lan also, Tigraine was definitely such case, Verin also, Amys and Sorilea also seem to be such ... the list will be too long to continue. But the persons who have the Talent to see ta'veren and who have seen more of these characters, have seen as ta'veren only three persons. All the other right-place people are not ta'veren.

Being at the right place is a way to do your purpose in the Pattern without changing the Patern itself. Ta'veren are different. They are not at the right place, they rather change the meaning of what a right place is, ta'veren generate right places and right times. This is definitely much more than some being at right place.

***Plus, it just makes the most sense. What is the a Heroe of the Horn's job? To make the corrections to the Pattern to re-align the balance; to cancel out all that humanity is throwing the Pattern off course. They ~alter~ what is happening (if you want to get in a big debate whether they are altering it or the Pattern has weaved it to be altered already; please save it). This is the exact same description of a ta'veren as given in the BWB***

C'mon, everybody is altering what happens, and very often it is according the Wheel's will. The life itself is altering the environement, and in WoTworld that is especially stressed. Every character is changing the fate of another characters with whom he has something common to do, and every culture or group or story is changed in the time just because time is passing. But ta'veren changes are said to be something different. Ta'veren effect is change in the way the world is changing, not just any change that happen all the time.

***I am simply using what we have seen. We know of three for sure Heroes that have been in the world, and were ta'veren***

And we have seen a very powerful ta'veren from the history of the Third Age - Mabriam en Shareed, the Founder of the Ten Nations Union, about whom we have no a single indication of being among the Heroes. And we have a number of Heroes who have participated in the first Hunt of the Horn from Illian (as Rogosh and his lady) or in the Trolloc Wars (as the AS who was bound to her Warder against her will) and who manifested no traits of being ta'veren.

Also there is a characteristic difference between the usual way Heroes are used and the usual way ta'veren are used (usual way, not exceptionally powerful ta'veren like Rand). Heroes are spun into living persons, who's whole life is modelled by the Heroic figure. Ta'veren are usually temporary phaenomena, sometimes lasting only for few hours around a beggar, who after the occasion remains as unknown as he was.

13

Ozymandias: 2005-09-02

It also could be possible that there are other personality traits that help one on the way to becoming a HotH. I mean, setting aside the abstract notions of being spun out to "correct" the Pattern, maybe its just a mixture of loyalty and bravery and other unnamed qualities. Remember that Hawkwing only tells Hurin this after Hurin displays loyalty that goes above and beyond the call of duty.

And on the abstract portion of this theory, that Heroes are ones who "correct" the Pattern; well, I just don't see this as possible. I mean, in theory, "the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills". Can you imagine the Wheel weaving the Pattern in a deliberately flawed manner? Analytical reasoning completely defies this. In theory, nothing will destroy the Pattern (other than balefire, of course, which doesn't pertain to this theory). Even influential characters such as Ishamael can supposedly be there for the purpose of balance. Because IF the Pattern attempts to keep a balance between good and evil, which seems to be common opinion, then everything that is happening, and that will happen, is more or less planned by the Pattern and there is no cause for concern. I dont subscribe to this line of thought, because it destroys the plot, but it does shred the balance theory. It's not like the Pattern is gonna balance itself only to a certain degree, and not any further beyond point X. If this was the case, then the corrective measure theory would work. But this is more or less inherently impossible.

Back to Heroes. The requirements for being Hero, I have already established, cannot be as a sort of white out for the Pattern, eliminating past mistakes, because it is inherently impossible for the Pattern to make mistakes; at least, given our current understanding of the Wheel and the Age Lace. To be a Hero, one must obviously be a prominent figure, but not in the sense that everyone knows your name. Kings and Queens by the boatload have come and gone without becoming heroes. And then on the other hand, men like Jain Farstrider become legends in their own time. Humility, loyalty, bravery, an inner sense of duty; all of these seem to point the way to a Hero (the humility part is more guesswork; I'm going of Jain Farstrider, who we "think", with a great deal of evidence, may be Noal. He doesn't announce himself or take any glory, yada yada yada). I mean, this is a difficult topic to discuss, because our knowledge is limited to two or three examples. Birgitte, possibly Jain Farstrider, and possibly Artur Hawkwing. We don't know what these men were like.

So finally, abandoning my other ideas stated above, I think the main prerequisite for Hero-dom is this; you have to be KNOWN, and have INCREDIBLE accomplishments. Artur Hawkwing fulfills these both. So does Jain Farstrider (is he a first or more than one generation hero?). Birgitte, we assume, must have achieved fame in her "first" life. We know next to nothing about the other heroes, and therefore cannot speculate on further requirements. Personally I don't think there is nearly enough evidence to decide one way or another, but this has been my take.

14

Ozymandias: 2005-09-02

Another interesting idea; can a Hero be unbound from the Horn? I mean, a fatalist would say that no they can't, because even acts of infamy are planned by the Wheel and executed through the instrument, and therefore not the instrument's (read: Hero) fault. But since the fatalist ideal is innately flawed, this is an interesting point to look at at

15

JakOShadows: 2005-09-05

First of all, I don't think a hero can be removed from the horn. And if the theory is correct and everyone has agreed on it, that would mean that they would do the right thing for the most part. There might me minor wrongdoings, like Hawkwing's siege against the WT. And in fact, I wouldn't even call them wrongdoings as I would call it the wrong approach(because Bonwhin was being a manipulative beotch). But anyway, I think they would be far more likely to do good by the nature of their character. I think what makes a hero of the horn is the fact that they do the right thing in the difficult situation, so it would seem illogical they would do a deed that would remove them as a hero. And another thing has struck me about the heroes, no matter how bad the odds are they never back down or give in. Look at Rand, he is facing a difficult situation in which victory looks impossible, and rather than give up and kill himself he sticks at it and keeps on fighting. The same can be said about Hawkwing. Now I know this characteristic is part of bravery, but I think what I have just mentioned is more of a different aspect that hasn't been talked about. The ability to stick by decision and do what you have to do, not because it is right or wrong, but because it has to be done.

16

Callandor: 2005-09-06

**Another interesting idea; can a Hero be unbound from the Horn?**

Well, at least a Hero cannot choose to not be a Hero anymore.

**Austin, TX: Aside from the Heroes of the Horn waiting around in the World of Dreams, is there any kind of afterlife in WOT? Do the Heroes get a choice when they are linked to the Horn; can they retire, or take 'ordinary life' sabaticals?

RJ: In answer to the first question, yes, there is an ordinary afterlife. In answer to the second, no. You cannot decide NOT to be a hero linked to the Wheel.**

Whether they can be unbound in other ways is possible, but I find it to not happen in anyway save soul destruction.

17

eht slat meit: 2010-01-06

I suspect that the binding process isn't based any sort of conscious selection or predetermined conditions. Instead, it seems more likely that it is a result of a single person's actions, actions of such profound meaning and impact on the surrounding threads, that they tie and bind the soul as it was at that time to the Wheel. Thus, it is the soul of Birgitte that is known as Hero, not any one of the numberless lives she has lived since then.