Tamyrlin: 2005-02-11

First of all thank you for taking time to write a thorough theory. Many writers here could do well to follow your example, instead of submitting questions or incomplete ideas that make small if not attempt at citing facts that support their claims...

Now, on to your challenge regarding, “no holes” in your logic. The first huge hole is the idea Jordan has to have given us the name of the individual who was Taim during the Age of Legends. I like the idea, and have been suggesting the same thing regarding the taint and voices for a long time, but I have never applied it as you have to where his knowledge came from regarding the OP and the Aiel. The second hole is Kodam. Kodam and his fellows were in charge of the Aiel...at least the real Aiel. However, in those travels, the Aiel changed into what they are today. If Kodam witnessed this change, or was aware of its beginnings, beyond the fact that he got to know the Aiel well, he might have more disdain for them than another individual. Also, Kodam meets the imaginary power discussion you have created...since we have no idea how strong Beidomon was. I would suggest, as easily as you did, that Kodam, to have been trusted with the Aiel and the Ter'angreal, Sa'angreal, and Angreal, he would had to have been one of the strongest of the young channelers who hadn't gone mad. In other words, according to how you were reasoning out Beidomon, I think just as strong of a case can be made for Kodam, even though you marginalized him so quickly. By the way, I am guessing you wanted these critiques to make your theory stronger; you will have to build a stronger case against Kodam...and I don't know that it exists, so you will have to find more that sets Beidomon a part...even though I am not sold on the idea that Jordan has to have given us the name of the individual that was Taim during that time period. Finally, while there is more I could nitpick, I will offer some advice on strengthening your argument; hone in on Taim's attitude around Rand...and Lanfear's love towards LTT. You could put together a small analysis of the un-returned love Beidomon felt towards Lanfear and the jealousy he had of LTT, who wouldn't take Lanfear. Taim's attitude towards LTT should come into play regarding a theory on whoever is running Taim at the moment. I think you have a solid idea, but Beidomon is the weakest part so far.

Callandor: 2005-02-11

**One, RJ doesn't do name drops. EVERYONE has a purpose.**

True, a lot of people who have been given names serve a purpose. But not everyone serves a major purpose. Some people are given names and play a part in a chapter, or just a section of a chapter, and then are never mentioned again.

And Beidomon did have a purpose: he helped Lanfear open the Bore.

**So, WHO IS HE? HOW can he be from the AoL if he's not a Forsaken. Doesn't that just leave Taim as plain-old Taim? Nope. There is one other male character in the current Age that comes from the AoL.**

The problem with the theory, is that it rests on the conclusion that Taim ~must~ be someone from the AoL.

**I present that Taim DID NOT channel for at least fifteen years without being affected by the Taint, but that in fact he had someone talking to him in his head - just like Rand does.**

**Having a past life/voice running around in Taim's head would explain the knowledge and the attitudes from the AoL. Rand definitely has a lot of knowledge from LTT and perhaps even some attitudes (Rand's changed with time anyways, so I don't think that it's entirely clear if Rand has truly adopted some of LTT's attitudes and personality, but he certainly listens to him). Having an AoL voice in his head, would explain away all of Taim's oddities - ESPECIALLY if the voice had actually taken over Taim.**

It would explain them, however, it leaves one big flaw:

Rand, even though the best of his abilities, has shown signs of his maddness enough (in visible ways) that people have remarked upon in. Off the top of my head, I'd list:

1. Perrin.

2. Mat.

3. Egwene.

4. Nynaeve.

5. Cadsuane.

6. Taim.

7. Min.

8. Bashere.

And there are probably many more.

With Taim, there are no visible signs. While this could be that Taim was totally taken over, how does this explain Taim's association with such bad things concerning the Shadow? After all, Beidomon you would think would be a "good" person instead of an "evil" one, and Taim has been in connection with known Darkfriends, and has ordered the attempted killing of his own leader.

**Two, Taim is very strong in the One Power. He is nearly as strong as Rand - perhaps as strong as Rand. Beidomon would very likely have had to have been very strong in the One Power to have helped Lanfear drill the Bore.**

Strength doesn't have to go along with Talents. Beidomon could've had a Talent necessary for finding or utilizing in the Drilling, and was average or even weak in the One Power. It's just inconclusive.

**And lastly, Beidomon is the last candidate left - process of elimination.**

Last canidate -- for your theory. There are other explainations that are more likely.

**Taim's actions - in particular his attitude towards Aiel - cannot adequately be explained away without him being from the AoL.**

They can be. Taim is a 3rd Age channeler who was trained by a Forsaken (or more then one if one died).

DapperH: 2005-02-13

Very interesting theory. I'm not sure that RJ has actually completely refuted the Demandred theory or not. The reference I have seen is:

"Yes. Demandred has never posed as Mazrim Taim. All right, those of who fell over from the shock of a simple, straightforward answer can get up off the floor now. Sometimes, simple and straightforward can be the most devious of all, as any student of Aes Sedai will tell you. "

If (as RJ clearly states), there is deception in this statement, we cannot take it at face value. At the risk of sounding like a certain ex-president ("that depends on what your definition of 'is' is") I wonder how RJ is defining the word "posed". It is possible that there never was any other Taim than Demandred which would mean that Demandred never "posed" as Taim -- he always was Taim. There are timeline issues with this of course (wasn't Demandred still locked away when Taim first put in an appearance? etc). But it is still out there.

This statement can also be parsed to hint that Demandred trained Taim, that Taim is another of the forsaken (you yourself noted that Asmodean died before Taim appeared... is it possible that the DO or some other entity brought Asmo back as Taim?), and so on. Again, I find your theory very interesting but don't think you can use the quote above (from: http://www.tor.com/jordan/questions.html) as a definitive confirmation that Demandred is not Taim.

Jalwin Moerad: 2005-02-13

Good theory. However, I also have a minor criticism. As we have seen from Balthemel, it is possible for a woman to be placed inside a man's body. In the case of Balthemel/Aran'gar, the man began to think like a woman: "It was difficult now to really remember what life had been like as a man; had she ever been such an easily manipulated fool, then?" -Path of Daggers, Unexpected Absences (Jordan 373)

If he could change so dramatically in so short a time, it makes sense that a woman born into a man's body could change quickly as well. And though, due to its potentially contentious nature, I hate to visit sexuality, I think it is instrumental in understanding Taim. For instance, I have always gotten the impression from this passage that Taim is a homosexual: "'Maybe if you ask the M'Hael, eh'll let you join his classes at the palace. You wouldn't be bored then." Crossroads of Twilight, Glimmers of the Pattern (Jordan 36) I understand that this is poor evidence, but I believe it fits, because Taim is never mentioned in conjunction with women. Male-Female relationships occupy approximately half of WoT; we have seen almost every character talk about relationships. That this is avoided with Taim seems to me an indication that doesn't have relationships with women.

Anyway, I feel that that information could build evidence towards Taim's once having been a woman. This would broaden the potential nominees for Taim's AOL self.

Overall, a very good theory. I think that it will turn out that many AOL people have been reborn into the current age; it would be just like Robert Jordan.

Callandor: 2005-02-13

**If (as RJ clearly states), there is deception in this statement, we cannot take it at face value. At the risk of sounding like a certain ex-president ("that depends on what your definition of 'is' is") I wonder how RJ is defining the word "posed". It is possible that there never was any other Taim than Demandred which would mean that Demandred never "posed" as Taim -- he always was Taim. There are timeline issues with this of course (wasn't Demandred still locked away when Taim first put in an appearance? etc). But it is still out there.**

That is not the only quote where RJ says flat out that Demandred is not Taim.

**Q: "It's been said that you mentioned that Mazrim Taim is not Demandred. There seems to be some confusion on whether or not you said that."

A: "Mazrim Taim is not Demandred."

[Matthew Julius, post-COT signing, Dayton, OH, January 16, 2003]**

Tim Kington concurs:

**Q: "Taim is clearly not Demandred, right?"

A: (Disgusted) "I've said that before, and it's not Taim, it's Ta-eeem."**

These are the two most prevelent at the most supported and confirmed. If you don't believe them, you're ignoring them.

Demandred never posed as Taim; Demandred is not Taim; Demandred never was Taim.

mako0424: 2005-02-13

Awesome theory, it seems pretty obvious.

I would agree that he is one of two major options, those being a Forsaken trained student, but like you said doesn't fully encompass the idea about how he refers to people so often, and like you quoted, if he really did refer to himself in Third Person, then i would think that a crucial crux to your argument.

I also would have to disagree with Frenzy in that you were being overly harsh to try and improve your own critique. Do you know for sure Beidomen was crushing on Lanfear, or is that merely speculation, i would also have to agree that Beidomen neccessarily would be strong in the Power.

It makes sense, and follows the whole balance motif, in that Lanfear, uber-powerful female channeler, Beidomen-uber-powerful male channelers, makes sense.

Would also explain why Taim's smell jumps from emotion to emotion so quickly, which i vaguely remember Perrin mentioning, doesn't Rand do the same thing, and we are supposed to understand its because of the different personalities causing different smells.

Great Theory, made a believer out of me.

Tamyrlin: 2005-02-13

mako - the response was mine, and as I mentioned, my positing that Beidomin had a crush on Lanfear...is as much speculation as this entire theory. So, I was suggesting that if the case for Beidomon was going to be made, it should include obvious references to Taim's sense of being better than Rand, and his obvious closeness to Lanfear as they created the Bore together.

reTaardad: 2005-02-13

This is a very good theory, very well written, and has some very appealing ideas, but, Tamyrlin, I think that it is too much to assume that Beidomon was in love with Mierin. The fact that they executed an experiment together is not enough evidence for it.

Also, the theory that the taint breaks down the barriers between past lives I have no problem with. But I don't think that you can so easily apply it to any special case. Perhaps the Taim we know is from the Age of Legends, but then you could assume that the mad Asha'man who thought he had spiders climbing on him had a past life that, odd as it may sound, was afraid of spiders. I'll not refute the theory, I like it and it's possible, but I think that it needs more evidence than postulation of a crush from more than 3000 years ago and the possibility that he has been reborn as a man who can channel at this point in time.

Kalessin: 2005-02-14

Perhaps I did dismiss Kodam a tad too lightly in my arguments Tamyrlin, but all in all I find Beidomon to be far more likely. I think that you are confusing Kodam somewhat since you seem to think that he had something to do with ter'angreal. He was one of the channelers that helped make the Eye of the World. Those that made it died in the process. As such, he wouldn't have been around to see the Aiel change.

All in all, reading the chapter where Joric, Kodam, and Beidomon are mentioned, Beidomon feels a lot more like name drop to me than the others and that coupled with the fact that Beidomon is mentioned in the Guide and they're not, it seems to me that Beidomon is of much greater importance.

However, what really makes me think that it's Beidomon over the others is his importance with relation to the Bore. If it's going to matter one speck who Taim really is, it's got to be because that has an impact on the story. The sealing of the Bore still needs to be done and Beidomon's knowledge of the drilling could be crutial. Cyndane has the same potential. Kodam's knowledge of the Eye is likely to be useless at this point and there's nothing to suggest that Joric knew more than your average male channeler. As such, from a plot standpoint, Beidomon makes a lot more sense than the others.

Now, of course as you've pointed out, being able to narrow it as far as I did requires that you assume that RJ has given us the name of who Taim really is. If you disregard that, then he could be pretty much anyone from the AoL. But it seems to me that it's far more RJ's style to give us all the clues that we need to solve the puzzle. We may not alway agree on what the clues mean, but he leaves them all the same.

It seems to me that the main thing to understand here is that it's a fairly sure thing that Taim has been taken over by a voice in his head that's his past life. It's either that or he's just someone taught by a Forsaken and I don't think that that flies at all with his behavior. Comments like "so-called Aiel" rule that out. But that has been debated for ages. Either you agree or you don't. If you do, then it seems pretty clear that Taim's past life has taken him over.

Given that, we still have to figure out who the past life was. The only way we can do that is if RJ has actually given us his name. So, assuming that he has, then Beidomon is the most likely. But of course it can't be proven.

The theory really comes in two parts. First that Taim has been taken over by his past life, and second that the evidence points to that past life being Beidomon.

There are three places to disagree ad thus to argue. First, that Taim must be from the AoL due to various things such as his behavior. Second, that Taim can't be one of the Forsaken since there aren't any left that he can be and that thus the only viable way for him to be from the AoL is if he has a voice of an AoL past life in his head like Rand and his past life took him over. And third, that given that RJ has given us the name of his past life, the most likely candidate for Taim is Beidomon.

A few people have argued Kodam over Beidomon, but most have balked at one of the first two points. The most popular seems to be that Taim isn't from the AoL at all, but personally I can't accept that given the evidence.

I do indeed think that the weakest point of the theory is the Beidomon part, but the funny thing is that if I hadn't pointed out Kodam and Joric, I'm not sure that anyone ever would have. People seem to ask about Beidomon at least occasionaly if not semi-frequently, but no one ever remembers the other two. If there's not enough evidence presented here against Kodam and Joric in favor of Beidomon it's because we have next to nothing on any of them. Nothing can be proven one way or another. But I still find Beidomon to be the most likely.

a dragonburned fool: 2005-02-14

I like this theory and it really explains very well Taim's oddities. On theoryland we discussed a lot Taim's knowledge of weaves and other details, and I don't know why the option of past-incarnation voice was usually neglected. However I don't agree with the analysis of the identity of Taim's voice, and I also see two major statements in Your argumentation, that you take for completely obvious, while they can be explained in different way.

The first thing I disagree, is your axiomatical proposition that Taim is obviously a darkfriend. It is a good explanation of Taim's behavior, but it not the only possible one. In theoryland it is subject of hot discussions. The hostile behavior of Taim against Rand says nothing about Taim's allegiance to the Shadow, because too many non-darkfriend characters are bad guys and do nasty things against Rand, and there is even whole non-Shadow class of metaphysical Evil. Bot autonomous egoism and anti-shadow fanatism have very importand place in RJ's philosophy and need their representants. The connection between Taim and the four darkfriend-asha'man makes Taim suspicious, but it is not a sufficient evidence, because other strong non-darkfriend bad characters also have serious darkfriend presence among their closest helpers - so Elaida who relied on Alviarin, Niall who relied on Carridin, etc. Also darkfriends will have better chance to earn Taim's "thrust", because darfriends allways have to take care about the paranoia of their darkfriend superiors, so their survival until now means that they know ways to suppress the suspects of a paranoical boss. The black Ajah had a plan to free him, but the details of the plan reveal his usage rather as a pawn. The rest of the argumentation for Taim being a darkfriend is to explain his knowledge and oddities, but exactly Your theory gives another good explanation of them, and even without Your theory it is still possible that an educated paranoical and talented third-ager will do what Taim did.

The second thing I disagree, is that the "so-called aiel" can be explained only by first-hand AoLer memories. There are two other explanations of the "so-called aiel"

1. Taim knows it from his Forsaken teacher. I personally don't believe in this, and it has some weaknesses, as You pointed out, but it is still quite possible. Forsaken are not teachers of everybody, but they sometimes agree to teach a man when it is in their interest (Ishamael, Asmodeam). When teaching them Forsaken will not interested in teaching not-usual things (and I don't find reasons for a Forsaken to want Taim to know about da'shain Aiel), but sometimes Forsaken say some nostalgical speeches of wise comments about current events. In this case Taim could either know about the old Aiel or just hear a Forsaken say so and take automatically begin to think so.

2. It is not necessary that when saying "so-called Aiel", Taim meant that the true Aiel are the pacifists. "Aiel" has meaning in Old Tongue, and it is "dedicated", "sworn to". Taim is using the "so-called aiel" in a context of questioning the reliability of followers. So his phrase could mean just "so-called dedicated ones". Since in third age nobles (i.e. the elite) are supposed to know Old Tongue, Taim as ambitious man with disciplined mind and care about his public appearance (and in Saldea cultural skills are very important in the high society) and he knows Old Tongue actually.

As about the candidatures of Beidomon, Joric and Kodam, I think that Joric has the greatest chances. The madness of Joric doesn't mean that his next incarnation will be also mad. Rand shows sometimes moments of weirdness while fighting with LTT, but Rand is new in this fight and often he can hold LTT under control. Looking at Taim's character I can see him fight successfully against some unwanted voice in his head, and Taim also had more time to learn how to keep his mad second personality under control. But if "so-called aiel" is voie's memory, then Joric has more reasons to think about aiels because he has ... a special connection with da'shain aiel in the end of his life. Also from the three known ones Joric was apparently a very powerful channeler with good rank in AS society (Solinda mentions him as a well-known person) and he was apparently a good warrior because Solinda and the other AS doesn't consider the chance to stop him with violence. This makes him be similar to Taim's personality.

Meanwhile, we have no indication that Beidomon is a darkfriend. When Mierin made the Bore she was still not evil and she was not among the very first ones to become Forsaken. So the participation in the drilling of the Bore doesn't make him a Forsaken. An there is an interview answer concerning Beidomon:

Q: The character Beidomon was presumably very powerful in the AOL and it has been suggested by some that he is still knocking around in the current age, possibly as Mordeth. Is there any truth in this?

A: No.

This may mean simply that Beidomon is not Mordeth, but the manner the question it asked and the confident answer make it very likely that Jordan meant: no Beidomon is not still knocking around in the current age.

Great Lord of the Dark: 2005-02-14

Kalessin, you do a great job of extrapolating what we know about male madness and the taint, and building this great theory. I have always believed that all males hear voices from their former lives, but I never really thought about what that might do to someone after 15 years, whether they might come to terms with that voice like the version of Rand hat Moiraine saw in the rings in Rhuidean.

To go a step further, I'd suggest you incorporate Min's iea that Cadsuane must teach Rand and all the Asha'man something. Why? What could Cadsuane teach that Taim couldn't, if it relates to madness and he's overcome it?

Also, note that Rand's been affected by the taint to the point that his body is failing. Why hasn't this happened to Taim yet? You could make a case that he's channeled very little in his 15 years, and reduced taint-effects that way. But it might be difficult to prove.

Lastly, I am not convinced Taim's former life need have been a name that has been dropped earlier. We don't know anything about the men whose memeories are in Mat's head, after all. Your theory can deflect more criticism if you don't need Beidomon to be the voice.

Congrats on a strong theory! Good luck defeneding it!

Aiel Finn: 2005-02-14

Here's some things that might help defend your wonderful theory.

First, how did Tiam escape the AS. If he somehow entered T'A'R under the instruction of his voice, the voice could have taken over such as LTT tried to while Rand was fighting Rhavin. This would also explain the change in appearence.

Second, could Beidomon's death have been caused by some sort of instant Taint death? He tried to touch the TP and ended up tainting himself to death during the drilling? This might have made him a DF.

Finally, if Tiam isn't a DF, and he was in love with Merin and is jelous of LTT/Rand, this would give plenty of cause to try to get Rand killed. Just look at Sammael and Demandred's obsession with beating LTT.

Great job on _FINALLY_ having a new Tiam theory.

amazinglarry: 2005-02-14

Kalessin,

Nice theory! I have never bought the argument that Taim says "so-called Aiel" because he picked it up from his Forsaken teacher. But the only way I could rationalize his transfer from the AOL to the 3rd Age was through either a stasis box or reincarnation by the dark one. I think your explanation makes a whole lot more sense than either of these, though. I think you make a good point about Jordan not typically including characters that don't come into play later. It doesn't seem immediately obvious why Jordan would write into the story that Lanfear had a partner in making the Bore. This explains nicely why Beidomon exists and why he has a glossary entry despite being (at this point) a very minor character.

My question is: does this lend any insight into Sodas' "Taim Killed Asmodean" theory? Does anyone know if it is mentioned anywhere whether Beidomon and Asmodean interacted in the AOL, what their relationship was like, etc?

nick: 2005-02-15

I don't think that there is anything particularly strange about Taim referring to himself in the third person when talking to Bashere. He is trying to prove to Bashere that he is who he says he is and he could say, “What does everyone not know that you and I will?” but Bashere doesn't really think he is Mazrim Taim.

I also don't think that Moiraines' vision in the rings is a good example of someone being taken over by an AoL personality. Every time Rand replies to Lanfear with some knowledge that only LTT knows he responds the same way, with a certain amount of contempt for her and her attitudes. I don't have the exact quote but when he snaps at her “And you loved power” after Lanfear tells Rand that LTT really did love her. In Moiraines' ring vision he was Lanfears' devoted lover calling himself LTT. I think that large amounts of compulsion rather than Rand being taken over by LTT would be a better explanation of this.

There is a passage in Lords of Chaos were Taim claims to have fought Trollocs and Myrddraal in the Blight yet after he dismisses the sword teacher from the farm he says he can barely avoid stabbing himself with a sword. I know that there weapons other than swords but it does seem to be the predominant weapon of choice for almost every party of Borderlanders that has been described in the books. Also I don't think he can have been channelling at them or the Aes Sedai would have discovered him long before he proclaimed himself the Dragon Reborn. Beidomon would probably know Swords mostly as a specialized sport in his time and unless he became a soldier, if he survived the explosion that opened the bore, it would be unlikely that he knew how to use one.

ilgross: 2005-02-15

There is evidence of Dark Friends picking up the Chosen 'slang', for example in Ebou Dar the two Dark sisters refer to the local 'Friends of the Dark' which is an AoL term as opposed to simply Dark Friends.

terez: 2005-02-16

Interesting theory - I'm not so sure that I believe it, but I wanted to contribute something I've been thinking for some time. It seems to me that Beidomon WAS Da'shain Aiel, for a few reasons. First, the lack of even a second name. Second, that he was said to be "assisting" Mierin. The Da'shain Aiel were servants of the AoL AS. If Beidomon were AS, why would he not have even a second name, and why wouldn't he have been given equal recognition with Mierin? It is mentioned in the BWB that it is not known if Da'shain Aiel had channelers. Of course they had channelers, why wouldn't they? Perhaps even their channelers were servants to the AS of the AoL. Like I said, I'm not sure if I totally agree with this theory, but the idea of Beidomon being Da'shain Aiel would lend credence to the "so-called Aiel" question in this case.

Callandor: 2005-02-16

**If Beidomon were AS, why would he not have even a second name, and why wouldn't he have been given equal recognition with Mierin?**

Because a person was only given a third name if they had done something important or were famous (you know what I'm getting at, I don't have the correct term for it though). After all, there were several Forsaken, who did not have a third name, and they were anything but Da'shain Aiel.

Jiana: 2005-02-16

Callandor: Beidomon is not mentioned as even having a *second* name, let alone a third. How explain that? The only characters (that I can momentarily think of anyway) that don't use or have a last name are the Aiel and the Ogier. Beidomon no doubt was NOT Ogier, so that leaves two possibilites. One: someone forgot to write down his last name. Two: He was Da'shain Aiel.

Bail Fyre: 2005-02-16

Nice theory, but, why must the voices in Rand's head be caused by the taint? Is there any evidence for this?

Callandor: 2005-02-16

**How explain that? The only characters (that I can momentarily think of anyway) that don't use or have a last name are the Aiel and the Ogier. Beidomon no doubt was NOT Ogier, so that leaves two possibilites. One: someone forgot to write down his last name. Two: He was Da'shain Aiel.**

Really? The only characters? Ha.

What about Barmellin? You know, the merchant in Cairhien who sees the Choedan Kal being used in the Cleansing? He must be Aiel. Or Timna, the Sea Folk woman who sees the same thing on Tremalking? She MUST be an Aiel then. Or Arin, the Caemlyn gate man in Baerlon? Must be an Aiel. Or Dar, the helper of Arin? Must be an Aiel. Or how about Anaiya, an Aes Sedai of the Blue Ajah? She MUST of course be an Aiel, for she is given only one name so far. Or what about Anath? Well, since she has only one name she's Aiel, and cannot be Semirhage or an alias of a Seanchan powerful servant.

You're using one heck of a bad rule of thumb to wildly suppose the Beidomon was an Aiel.

There is a very simple reason why Beidomon had one name: RJ didn't give him one! He didn't need one!

Not every character has a last name. And to be technical, the Aiel do have last names -- it's their clans. Aviendha of the Nine Valleys sept of the Taardad Aiel; that's her full name traditionally.

Callandor: 2005-02-16

**Nice theory, but, why must the voices in Rand's head be caused by the taint? Is there any evidence for this?**

Quite a lot. If you read carefully through the books, whenever Rand has a large increase in channeling ability, Lews Therin gains in appearence.

Major ones:

1. After the usage of Callandor in TDR, Rand in TSR first exhibits memories (sort of memories) from Lews Therin, about Lanfear.

2. After the fight over the Choedan Kal with Asmodean in Rhuidean, in TFOH Rand has major slips of using phrases he has no control over (Can breat, "little sister" for Moiraine), as well as having a memory of Ilyena, and the first confirmed voicing of Lews Therin.

After that, with more channeling (through the angral) more often, Lews Therin grows and grows in presence.

Bail Fyre: 2005-02-17

Those examples could just as easily show that the OP is causing the voices in Rand's head, not the taint. With the taint now gone, I suppose book 11 will give us the answer. If the voices start subside the taint will be the likely culprit. If not ...

Tamyrlin: 2005-02-17

Why would the OP be the cause? We know Rand is LTT. We know Rand is getting memories, even the voice of LTT in his head, but we also know that every other individual is someone reborn, channelers in almost all cases, are channelers reborn? If the OP is the cause, why don't women ever hear voices of their past lives? It is obvious that other channelers, male channelers, Rand meets, are hearing voices. In fact, Cadsuane is quite specific regarding her study of male channelers, and the voices they hear before they go mad, "voices telling them what they should do". The most obvious reason is the taint; LTT, before the taint, along with every other male channeler in the Age of Legends, before the taint, didn't hear voices of their previous lives.

Callandor: 2005-02-18

**Those examples could just as easily show that the OP is causing the voices in Rand's head, not the taint. With the taint now gone, I suppose book 11 will give us the answer. If the voices start subside the taint will be the likely culprit. If not ...**

1. As Tam said, why the heck would it be the One Power?

2. We've had Rand's POV post-Cleansing. Lews Therin is still there, and the only thing remarked about him is he is "more sane" since Shadar Logoth. If you take this to be a good sign, please reconsider, since if a fictional voice in yuor head started to become normal, it's far from normal.

snakes-n-foxes: 2005-02-18

Have to say, that the absence of any sign of madness eliminates Taim as having been 'taken over' by a past soul.

RJ has not (last I read) eliminated Demandred as Taim. His quote was something like 'Demandred has never posed as the man Taim'...what is Demandreds real name by the way ? - I honestly can't remember if it's been stated in the books or not, and my books are buried from moving house)

Have to disagree with Callandor that Taim would adopt the term 'so-called Aiel' after training with the forsaken. It's human nature to admire the strong over the weak. This is in conflict with his views of the Aiiel. It's also human nature to believe that what you saw first, and are familiar with is the 'REAL' thing...unless you find something 'better'. This obviously is completely different from his views of the Aiel.

And similar to the other point, Taim is obviously disdainful of anything showing weakness...and the True Aiel, would seem a lot weaker than the current Aiel, in anyones eyes.

Overall, I really liked the Theory, and the process of elimination. I did see one or two other flaws, but can't remember them at the moment.

Aiel Finn: 2005-02-18

Tiam's showing no signs of madness may be from his past life having complete control. Rand's signs of madness, when he's not using Callandor(no buffer) or just started Channeling (tEotW), are all from him argeing with LTT in his head. If Taim lost the battle, Beidomon would not show madness because he doesn't ahve these arguements. I think that the reason LTT seems saner is that he is starting to come to terms with his situation.

Callandor: 2005-02-18

**RJ has not (last I read) eliminated Demandred as Taim. His quote was something like 'Demandred has never posed as the man Taim'...what is Demandreds real name by the way ? - I honestly can't remember if it's been stated in the books or not, and my books are buried from moving house)**

No, RJ has said several times flat out that Mazrim Taim is not Demandred. Look elsewhere on the site for the quote because I am tired of giving them out. Demandred is not Taim; never was Taim; Demandred never posed as Taim.

**Have to disagree with Callandor that Taim would adopt the term 'so-called Aiel' after training with the forsaken. It's human nature to admire the strong over the weak. This is in conflict with his views of the Aiiel. It's also human nature to believe that what you saw first, and are familiar with is the 'REAL' thing...unless you find something 'better'. This obviously is completely different from his views of the Aiel.**

Just look at the startling fact that the only two people in the world that have called the Aiel specifically "so-called" are Ishamael/Moridin and Mazrim Taim. Implication alone is enough.

And as for Taim's views, what do you mean it's opposite the "better" and more "real" views of the Aiel? If Taim, as a 3rd Ager grown/raised before the Aiel War and possibly took place in it (or at least knew of it for sure), he's heard the rumors of the Aiel (10 feet tall, fire-breathing, heads in their bellies even) and then he gets trained by the Forsaken and learns of their true nature... it fits perfectly into what we know of Taim.

**If Taim lost the battle, Beidomon would not show madness because he doesn't ahve these arguements.**

Read the quote that is the basis for this entire theory:

**TITLE: Fires of Heaven

CHAPTER: 52 - Choices

It was not at him directly that she struck this time. It was at his link to saidin. Panic rang the Void like a gong at the first knife-sharp touch, the Power diminishing as it slid deeper between him and the Source. With Spirit and Fire and Earth he cut at the knife blade; he knew where to find it; he knew where his link was, could feel that first nick. Her attempted shield vanished, reappeared, returned as fast as he could cut it, but always with that momentary ebbing of saidin, moments when it almost failed, leaving his counterstroke barely enough to foil her attack. Handling two weaves at once should have been easy-he could handle ten or more-but not when one was a desperate defense against something he could not know was there until it was almost too late. Not when another man's thoughts kept trying to surface inside the Void, trying to tell him how to defeat her. *If he listened, it might be Lews Therin Telamon who walked away, with Rand al'Thor a voice sometimes floating in his head if that.***

The real personality might not go away at all (not a once taken, full control deal). That is of course that the voice can do this if Rand looses control, and if the voice is something other then taint induced madness.

**I think that the reason LTT seems saner is that he is starting to come to terms with his situation.**

Who has been "insane" from the start? Who is the one who has been dealing with this from book 4?

And who wants to answer if Lews Therin is appearing more "sane", and has been insane from the beginning, is Rand going anywhere but down?

Black Tower: 2005-02-20

***1. As Tam said, why the heck would it be the One Power?

2. We've had Rand's POV post-Cleansing. Lews Therin is still there, and the only thing remarked about him is he is "more sane" since Shadar Logoth. If you take this to be a good sign, please reconsider, since if a fictional voice in yuor head started to become normal, it's far from normal. ***

1. Bail Fyre isn't saying it's the OP, he/she is just saying the evidence doesn't support the taint as the cause for the voices and I have to agree.

2. Lewis Therin is not a "fictional" voice and Rand knows that now.

Callandor: 2005-02-20

**1. Bail Fyre isn't saying it's the OP, he/she is just saying the evidence doesn't support the taint as the cause for the voices and I have to agree.**

Ok, then show me your explanation, and shows reasons for the correlation between Rand channeling and dreaming in more taint, and the emergence and increase in presence of Lews Therin in Rand's mind.

**2. Lewis Therin is not a "fictional" voice and Rand knows that now.**

Please, indulge me in this proof that Lews Therin is actually a real voice inside Rand's mind, and not the product of taint madness and the taint destroying the barrier between past and present lives.

Oh, and please quote where Rand "knows this." I'll find this the best part of your explanation, since if anyone here thinks that Rand is actually fully normal now, or ever since TFOH, you're the crazy one here. And you're practically saying that Rand is perfectly sane, and is subject to insane forces.

snakes-n-foxes: 2005-02-20

Now there Callandor, would be an interesting Theory - Rand being sane but subject to insane forces.

Black Tower: 2005-02-21

**Ok, then show me your explanation, and shows reasons for the correlation between Rand channelling and dreaming in more taint, and the emergence and increase in presence of Lews Therin in Rand's mind.**

The demands of fatherhood, a career, keeping fit, etc, preclude me from taking the time to document any of my entries, and for that, I apologize. I am going on memory and personal opinion and thus can offer no evidence. I welcome any, however, for or against what I offer in these pages. It would certainly help me to fill in the many missing gaps.

**Please, indulge me in this proof that Lews Therin is actually a real voice inside Rand's mind, and not the product of taint madness and the taint destroying the barrier between past and present lives.

Oh, and please quote where Rand "knows this." I'll find this the best part of your explanation, since if anyone here thinks that Rand is actually fully normal now, or ever since TFOH, you're the crazy one here. And you're practically saying that Rand is perfectly sane, and is subject to insane forces.**

LTT is an actual voice, and your claim IF true, that the taint is destroying the barrier between past and present lives is proof of this. A past life is actual and historical, not fictional. Either way, if I remember correctly, Rand has received helpful and real information from LTT. The fictional voice in the head of a mad man would not be able to provide anything of the sort. I don't believe Rand is fully normal, how could anyone be after what he's gone through. He's not insane, however, or even close to it. LTT, now he's a different story. He is as insane as they come.

Great Lord of the Dark: 2005-02-21

Callandor, I disagree. Mazrim Taim is obviously Demandred. Stop relying on weak RJ quotes to support your dead theory.

:)

terez: 2005-02-22

I still don't know about the theory, but I still think Beidomon was Da'shain Aiel. Other characters second names have not been given, but none of them were vital characters, Beidomon drilled the Bore; none of those others were mentioned in the same reference with someone whose full name was given; the Aiel didn't start giving their sept/clan names until the clans/septs were formed, much later. In an age where names were so important, the one-name thing seems indicative of some kind of servant status. And, the Drilling probably required equal use of saidin and saidar, and I still don't see any other good reason for the "was assisted by" comment.

Callandor: 2005-02-22

**I am going on memory and personal opinion and thus can offer no evidence.**

Then do not state your opinions as facts. State your opinions all you want; everyone does that. But specifies them as opinions or ideas -- not solid facts if they are not.

**LTT is an actual voice, and your claim IF true, that the taint is destroying the barrier between past and present lives is proof of this. A past life is actual and historical, not fictional. Either way, if I remember correctly, Rand has received helpful and real information from LTT. The fictional voice in the head of a mad man would not be able to provide anything of the sort. I don't believe Rand is fully normal, how could anyone be after what he's gone through. He's not insane, however, or even close to it. LTT, now he's a different story. He is as insane as they come.**

See, here's where it gets complicated: Lews Therin is dead. He has no "voice" any more, and has not for over 3500+ years.

Yes, the barriers between Rand's past life and present life is severely weakened compared to anyone else in the world (that we know of so far). The cause of this is undoubtedly nothing else but the taint. Rand having channeled more saidin, and more taint then, than anyone else existing in the 3rd Age, would stand the greatest degree of destruction of this barrier (and if anyone disagrees that Rand has channeled the most tainted saidin ever, I'll gladly point out where that is clearly the wrong opinion).

The past life was actual, and historical -- not fictional as you have said. But it is not "real" by any chance. What has happened here is that memories of Lews Therin's past life have drifted over into Rand's life -- think of clips of a movie. You have glimpses, and experiences (shown expressly by Rand's dreams and sudden rememberances of actions in Lews Therin's life) -- but you do not have the entire span of Lews Therin's life.

For Rand to have the "real" Lews Therin in his mind, the barrier between past and present lives would have to be totally destroyed, and a full mergence of personalities would take place. That is the only accpetable reason for Lews Therin to be "real" in Rand's mind.

Everything else in Rand's mind, is taint madness.

**The fictional voice in the head of a mad man would not be able to provide anything of the sort.**

And when does the ~voice~ provide anything? It is always the instincts of Rand or a sudden rememberance of what do to. Granted, these are the memories of Lews Therin almost assuredly playing a part here -- but it's not the voice.

There is one single instance of Lews Therin actually "telling" Rand to do something that works, and this is subjective to whether you believe Rand is really listening to a voice that tells him things, or he is remembering what to do himself, and this memory is merely passing through a defense mechanism for his sanity. That one event, is when Rand breaks through the Tower Aes Sedai link around him at Dumai's Wells.

**He's not insane, however, or even close to it.**

I vehemently disagree.

First off, Rand is not insane, and almost assuredly won't be. Insane and sane are legal terms to classify if people can distinguish between right and wrong in the court of law.

Rand is without a doubt abnormal.

Secondly, Rand is quite mad. He's having conversations, taking chidings, and sharing advice practically with a voice inside his head -- if Rand were to explain this to anyone in modern times, we'd say quite quickly he was schizophrenic (RJ seems to be using a merging of multiple-personality disorder (since he said Rand has two personalities) and schizophrenia, since Rand is hearing things that are certainly not there).

As I said earlier, Rand has been recieving these "movie clips" of memories from Lews Therin's life -- here's the important part: the madness of the taint, warps/merges these/fills in the gaps, and we get a fully believable "voice" in Rand's head alone.

True: the memories are there.

True: the memories are genuine and real.

The "voice" of Lews Therin is not real; it is really Rand subconsciously acting on himself.

Look at it. Lews Therin constantly expresses sadness, laughter, fear, anger - precisely the emotions that Rand tries to avoid making contact with and needs to relearn. Consider:

**TITLE: Winter's Heart, CHAPTER: 25 - Bonds

In his room at The Counsel's Head, Rand sat on the bed with his legs folded and his back against the wall, playing the silver-mounted flute Thom Merrilin had given him so long ago. An Age ago. This room, with carved wall panels and windows overlooking the Nethvin Market, was better than that they had abandoned at The Crown of Maredo. The pillows stacked beside him were goose down, the bed had an embroidered canopy and curtains, and the mirror above the washstand had not a single bubble. The lintel above the stone fireplace even had a bit of simple carving. It was a room for a well-to-do foreign merchant. He was glad he had thought to bring enough gold when he left Cairhien. He had lost the habit of carrying much. Everything had been provided for the Dragon Reborn. Still, he could have earned a bed of some sort with the flute. *The tune was called "Lament for the Long Night," and he had never heard it before in his life. Lews Therin had, though. It was like the skill at drawing. ~Rand thought that should frighten him, or make him angry, but he simply sat and played while Lews Therin wept.~***

Lews Therin is an outlet for all of Rand's suppressed emotions, from all that pressure of being the Dragon Reborn, and being so hard as he thinks he needs to be.

Why do you think Lews Therin suddenly just vanishes from Rand's mind after Cadsuane shows up, and does not return until The Path of Daggers? It is the one time if damn near forever that Rand ~expressed feelings!~, specifically his anger. Once he started expressing his own feelings, rather than feeding them into Lews Therin, the "voice" retreated. However, after that episode Rand went back to suppressing everything, and the "voice" eventually reappeared.

Lews Therin is in no way "real." His roots so to speak are indeed real -- the memories of his past life -- but the voice is not real. It's a hodge-podge of taint madness, memories, suppressed emotions, and stress all formed into a fictional presence in Rand's mind --> Lews Therin.

Black Tower: 2005-02-22

**Then do not state your opinions as facts. State your opinions all you want; everyone does that. But specifies them as opinions or ideas -- not solid facts if they are not. **

This is Theoryland and thus it is presupposed that all entries are theories. I didn't feel the need to express that what I was stating was opinion and not fact. The only thing I would state as fact would be a direct quote from the series.

Otherwise, you did a grand job in spelling out your “theory”. I now understand your point and I see merit in it. The evidence and assumptions you give supports the fact that this is one possible scenario for how the series will play out, but there is still no hard evidence to suggest that it must play out this way. Good work

Jiana: 2005-02-22

Callandor, in response to YOUR response to my last post regarding the possibility of Beidomon being Aiel... First let me say, down boy! :) I was not suggesting that I think he WAS Aiel, only that it is just as possible as anything else. In fact, I think the first possibility I mentioned (that someone just neglected to write the full name down) is more likely. I am very aware that there are others in the books whose whole names are not known, but *for the most part*, are they not minor characters? (I stress "for the most part" because I have no desire to be blasted later :))A person who helped create the Bore doesn't seem a minor character to me.

WinespringBrother: 2005-02-22

***For Rand to have the "real" Lews Therin in his mind, the barrier between past and present lives would have to be totally destroyed, and a full mergence of personalities would take place. That is the only accpetable reason for Lews Therin to be "real" in Rand's mind. ***

RJ did state that Rand has 1 soul, but 2 personalities. (post-COT signing, 1/7/2003 on the tour message board). So it's likely not just some voice Rand made up. For one thing, how would Rand learn things he didn't know on his own from the AOL if this voice were make believe?

Callandor: 2005-02-22

**I am very aware that there are others in the books whose whole names are not known, but *for the most part*, are they not minor characters? (I stress "for the most part" because I have no desire to be blasted later :))A person who helped create the Bore doesn't seem a minor character to me.**

Of course, they are generally terribly minor characters. Anaiya is an exception, since her last name hasn't been given so far, even after she died. Anath could be another exception since she is undoubtably Semirhage, and the character is most likely going to play a larger part soon. But, again, given that people with one name are generally so minimal, and play such a small part, what does that say with Beidomon, if he fits the pattern?

Bail Fyre: 2005-02-23

In MY OPINION, I still BELIEVE LTT is in Rand's head (to one degree or another) and is more a product of Rand's uniqueness as the Dragon Reborn rather than being caused by the taint or taint induced madness.

minalth: 2005-02-25

Jalwin Moerad

If a woman was put in a man's body, the man that was produced would be able only to channel saidar.

It is the soul that decides which part of the power people channel

Wompat: 2005-08-11

the "so-called Aiel" and "renegade Aiel" quotes from Taim do not mean that the voices, which I agree are in his head, come from someone from the AoL. When Rand went through the rings at Rhuidean he saw ancestors of his BOTH pre- and post- breaking that were radically different from the Aiel today. In fact until relatively recently (I dont have the book with me so I cant check dates), the Jenn Aiel, which were more like Tinkers than Aiel, were around. Thus Taim could just as easily have the voice of someone from the 3rd Age who knew the Jenn

Wompat: 2005-08-11

an example of someone who Taim could be is a Dreadlord from the Trolloc Wars, who knew of the Jenn. Granted the Waste was given the name 'The dying ground' by trollocs during this period so, maybe the jenn were few and a virtual unknown to most back then too. anyway, my point is that someone who did know of the Jenn in the third age could have easily made the "so-called Aiel" quote

Wompat: 2005-08-11

also callandor, wouldn't a co-worker/assistent to one of the most powerful female channelers and an acclaimed scientist in the AoL, who we just happen to know was and is infatuated with power,have a second name. as for all the other minor and not so minor charecters that dont have a second name, i.e. Anayia, Anath, etc., in the AoL a name was much more than it is in the 3rd age, i cant picture Lanfear allowing Beidomon to even be a meager intern if he didnt have a second name, and why woudl RJ mention him if he didnt have a larger role to play? why would someone credited with the drilling of the Bore be a nobody, especially when Lanfear was working with him? I agree with your argument that he is not necessarily a strong channeler, but has a strong Talent, but why would someone with such a strong Talent fail to merit a second name?

smack521: 2012-08-28

A few questions/comments on this theory now that Towers of Midnight is out:

In regards to the first comment, by Tamyrlin, I think Taim could definitely be someone who had connections to the Aiel, such as Kodam.

Quote: "Kodam and his fellows were in charge of the Aiel...at least the real Aiel. However, in those travels, the Aiel changed into what they are today. If Kodam witnessed this change, or was aware of its beginnings, beyond the fact that he got to know the Aiel well, he might have more disdain for them than another individual."

Is it too much of a stretch to think that Aviendha's new visions in Rhuidean, about the future of the Aiel [ToM], could be caused by Taim during the aftermath of The Last Battle? Especially if he was someone who had gone mad or had witnessed the "so-called Aiel's" abandonment of their vows. Once Aviendha returns to Rand and tells him of her visions, could that lead him to dig deeper into the corruption in the Black Tower he has been putting aside so far? Although I can't imagine him worrying about anything before Caemlyn in Memory of Light. Any thoughts?