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emandred's Rule is Secure

by Senbonzakura1: 2010-10-28 | 6 out of 10 (5 votes)

Previous Categories: Demandred - Who and Where?

Well, after reading quite a few theories on here, I figured I might try my hand at one. A friend of mine and I came up with it about a year ago, and while I have seen some fans already speculate upon it, during my theory readings here I did not happen to come across it, so I shall now do so.

About a year ago (long before I knew this great site existed), a friend of mine and I were discussing WoT, just a casual conversation, and the subject of Demandred came up. I told my friend "Obviously Demandred is Taim, the physical similarities are there as well as personality." He then promptly told me that the late great RJ had disavowed this theory. My initial reaction was simply "...what?"

After that revelation, my mind begin to wander the vast scope of possibilities of who exactly Demandred could be. It was simply a matter of answering one question, as my friend and I discussed each and narrowed down possibilities.

1. Demandred has stated that his rule is secure:

TITLE: The Gathering Storm, CHAPTER: PROLOGUE - What the Storm Means

"And you?" Moridin asked Demandred. "My rule is secure," Demandred said simply. "I gather for war. We will be ready." Graendal itched for him to say more than that, but Moridin did not push. Still, it was much more than she'd been able to glean on her own. Demandred apparently held a throne and had armies. Which were gathered. The Borderlanders marching through the east seemed more and more likely.

So the question is, where?

After much deliberation (well, not really much), I believe Demandred is posing as Roedran Almaric do Arreloa a'Naloy, King of Murandy.

And here is where I try to back it up:

Not many places were left for control in the WoT world when Demandred was introduced. Andor was left to Rahvin, the Seanchan to Semirhage, Arad Doman for Graendal, Be'lal took Tear, Sammael to Illian, the White Tower to Mesaana, the rebel Aes Sedai to Aran'gar, the Black Tower to Osan'gar. Lanfear and Asmodean were tailing Rand before death, and I'll simply assume Ishamael had the Blight before death.

This leaves Murandy, Ghealdan, Altara, Amadicia, and the Borderlands.

Ghealdan can be dismissed easily: Masema(now dead as of TGS) was causing all sorts of hell in Ghealdan, as well as the Queen going into Perrin's service. As of TGS, Ghealdan is still in terrible shape.

Altara and Amadicia as well can be dismissed; they are under Seanchan control, and other than the Whitecloaks in Amadicia, had little military readiness as Demandred suggests he has. Furthermore, the Whitecloaks have changed leaders multiple times recently, so unless Demandred is posing as Galad (which would be one hell of a twist) both can be ruled out.

The Borderlands are a bit tougher. I have two arguments for this: One, Two are queens and the other two kings are with them. Unless Compulsion is involved, Demandred staging as one either King Easar or King Paitar and controlling the other three is a bit far fetched, though would be incredibly dastardly, as removing all the Borderland armies from their places is brilliant tactics(crap, gotta stop arguing against myself).

My second reason is the number of Aes Sedai with them. Not the fact that there are 13, which would be a great counterpoint against this theory, but the fact that there are a bunch of them with the Borderlanders currently. Unless all are Black Ajah (which IS quite possible, but highly doubtful) one of them (I hope) would catch on that one of their leaders is acting a bit off. Aes Sedai have to be good for something, right?

This leaves Murandy wide open. In Knife of Dreams, Talmanes secured a profitable deal with the King Roedran of Murandy to use the Band as a fake invading army to unify his own troops.

TITLE: Knife of Dreams, CHAPTER: 25 - Attending Elaida

"Well, as to that, I made a small deal with King Roedran. Finished with, now, and not before time - I think he was about ready to turn on us; I will explain later - but the Band's coffers hold a year's pay and more. Besides, sooner or later the Dragon Reborn will give you estates, and grand ones. He has raised men to rule nations, so I hear, and you grew up with him."

First, the fact that any King of Murandy managed a tactic to unite Murandy is something suspicious, looking at Murandy's history. And if there is one thing Demandred knows, it's tactics. Demandred was a powerful and cunning general in the Age of Legends, while fighting for and against the Light.

Second, to add to Demandred's military skills is that Roedran had several copies of Madoc Comadrin's Fog of War, a book Mat Cauthon, who could be considered among the Great Five now with Pedron Niall dead, quotes often. Since military techniques and tactics has changed much since the Age of Legends, Demandred would need to "brush up" on warfare in this new day and Age.

TITLE: Knife of Dreams, CHAPTER: 26 - As If the World Were Fog

"Do you not recognize it?" Talmanes said. "It is from your book. King Roedran has two copies in his library. He has it memorized. The man thinks it will make him a great captain. He was so pleased with how our bargain worked out that he had a copy printed and bound for me." Toy gave the other man a mystified look. "My book?" "The one you told us about, Mat. Fog and Steel, by Madoc Comadrin." "Oh, that book." Toy shrugged. "I read it a long time ago."

Due to his plan with Talmanes, Roedran is able to unify the armies of Murandy. Note that Murandy has always been a, ah, shady sort of country. If Demandred said to attack the forces of the Dragon Reborn, hell, why not? Not much persuasion would be necessary; the guy(Rand) is supposed to break the world again and what not.

To conclude, Demandred, is King Roedran of Murandy. He's got his unified army, and he's ready for some 3000 year old vengeance.

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Tamyrlin: 2010-10-31

I've seen this idea recently, and while I agree from a ruler standpoint it is possible, the way the King is described reacting. I have a hard time imagining Demandred really caring about Murandy. An army of non channeling men is not going to touch the Dragon Reborn. Although, I can see the King being a proxy and a darkfriend.

I know this doesn't address the "my rule is secure," but I take that from the stand point that Demandred is speaking to Moridin in counter point to Graendal and Mesaana and all of the Forsaken that have failed to hold their rule. Demandred is saying, "you don't need to worry about me, my plans are all working and I'll be ready to go."

Anyway, not an oft discussed candidate which deserves to be discussed. Thanks for submitting it.


Senbonzakura1: 2010-10-31

Yeah, hadn't thought about the non-channeling army much. I guess the army of Murandy would be a distraction at best. Demandred, as a skilled tactician, could use such a distraction, but still hihgly unlikely. Haha, only two more days til release, so hopefully I can just RAFO soon.


Clyve: 2010-10-31

The secrecy that is involved in Demandred through out the series, combined with RJ's obvious penchant for unveiling massive revelations (think cleansing Saidin, healing Severing in men and women, Verin being a Darkfriend etc.) I just have this suspicion that Demandred is going to turn out to be someone we have seen a million times and never suspected. It just doesn't seem like being King Roedran is epic enough for the single most secretive CHosen in the entire series. Wouldn't it be great if Demandred was like, Damer Flynn, or bette yet, Talmanes?


The Angry Druid: 2010-10-31

I think your scope is far too narrow and I think Murandy is much too small potatoes for Demandred. Shara.

Think about it. Mesaana is in the WT. Semirhage was with the Seanchan. The two biggest powers in Randland. Aran'gar was attached to Egwene. Osan'gar to Rand (or at least at the BT). All important people, and a bunch of channelers around. Shara fits the bill. Or the Seanchan mainland.

Demandred was the third member of their troika, and you think he is in Murandy? Heck, that's even beneath Tear (Be'lal), Andor (Rhavin), or Illian (Sammael).


heavytabbs: 2010-10-31

I just wanted to remind everyone that other than his appearances alongside the other forsaken (such as secret meetings and at the cleansing), RJ said that we have yet to see Demandred in any scene or on stage in any chapter as a character masquerading as someone else(or something along these lines... correct me if I'm wrong... and I guess this statement isn't up to date considering a book was written after RJ's passing, but it's still an important nuance).

This would mean that Flynn and Talmanes are out, along with any other character one might have grown to like. This is good news to me because it means that I can't be betrayed by any character that I've grown to love by him/her (lol... you never know) turning out to be Demandred. This would also mean that the borderlander kings can be ruled out too! The king of Murandy huh? I actually like it.

After what I pointed out, I think it can help you narrow it down to basically... well Murandy or the blight. Lots of people out there believe that He holds vast Trolloc armies in some blight stronghold (which I don't know if we're allowed ToM spoilers here, but some evidence of this theory MIGHT be present in the ToM prologue), but I actually like the Murandy idea more. The forsaken are all individuals of the human world (by this I mean they almost all value status, possessions, power, influence, etc.) and Demandred would definitely be more interested in securing power in a country of men rather than some light-forsaken fortress in the middle of what's basically hell... pure speculation, but it is what it is. The only reason I can think of a Forsaken building power in the blight would be because the DO valued that individual as a general above all else, but the person that tops that list is Sammael and he didn't follow that path, so I can't see Demandred doing it either.


Lupusdeusest: 2010-10-31

Again - I have no references - but recall in the Great Borderland Leader Meetup Chapter one of the queens (Ethenielle?) was introduced to a man similar in looks to Demi by Tenobia. People passed off Morgase's compulsion as lovesickness; could the same thing, therefore, happen again?

Clyve, yes, I totally agree... it's rather... annoying. I will have finished reading TofM in roughly 26h (assuming the latest possible attainment time is 2pm tomorrow, 21h away) and I'm here to tell you I will be searching furiously for Demi hints. I've already had one theory proved correct in the prologue (Big Mama).


Brutus: 2010-11-01

There is no reference in the regular books (as far as I know), but there is a Land of Mad Men in "The world of RJ's Wheel of Time". I remember reading a comment by RJ that this land will make an appearance. How about the sea folk never killing their men who could channel, but simply dropping them off on this island? Demandred is somewhere in the south (where the Land of Mad Men is located). His rule could very well be secure there for a host a mad, male channelers.


Clyve: 2010-11-01

@ HeavyTabbs
Good point, I do recall an interview to that effect now. Roedran is looking more and more convincing, but it does still seem like Murandy isn't important enough. I mean no one is suggesting that Demandred has been pulling the strings behind Mayenne, haha. Then again, maybe that means that there is something important there that is yet to be revealed.


Eviltwin: 2010-11-01

The Angry Druid:
"I think your scope is far too narrow and I think Murandy is much too small potatoes for Demandred. Shara."

I agree.. this is just too small. i mean think about it, i like the Seanchan more. I know Semirhage was already upto that, but we can safely divide them into two groups, on either side of the ocean. Demandred is the leader unifying forces on the other side, it would be exactly what rand was worried about, going to the last battle having to watch your back. Messana, Semirhage and Demandred trying to manipulate the only three one-power wielding armies left. Besides its the "Towers of Midnight" maybe Moridin will order Demandred to launch his attack from Seanchan at the end of the book,if Rand somehow manages a deal with Fortuna?


PerrinMcBeardy: 2010-11-01

Thanks for submitting this theory. I've not spent much time thinking about where Demandred might be because there are so few clues, so thanks for bringing this up.

I think you might be partly right. I think it's unlikely that Demandred is actually posing as King Roedran because, as we've seen, posing as a real leader of a nation makes you quite conspicuous. I also think that if he had focused all of his energies on Murandy, he would have done a lot more than Reodran has done (and ended up being discovered). Also, do you think that Mat's Army could have met with Demandred and walked away with a large sum of gold and nothing missing? There is no evidence that they were compelled or tampered with in any way.

I think, though, that Murandy is likely to be a part of Demandred's realm, but not the sole focus. We know that Demandred likes to have proxies, so my hypothesis is that he is running a few different things to a small or moderate degree.

- The Black Tower: I think it more likely that Taim is Demandred's man, rather than Moridin's. Moridin is overseeing all Forsaken, and I don't think he has time to being directly oversee by Taim. There are some hints to who's ordering whom to do what in Winter's Heart, but I don't have the book with me right now. This would not take much real effort at all. Taim is undoubtably a dark friend, and I believe he would simply follow Forsaken orders with some promises of greatness.

- Masema: Masema was crazy on his own, and well capable of creating violence and chaos in trying to force everyone to accept Rand as the Dragon Reborn, but his continued success and his visions of a man speaking to him as the dragon, which Brandon Sanderson said "weren't just from Masema being crazy," prove that a channeler was definitely directing Masema and likely helping him. I think it required very little intervention and that the manipulator was Demandred.

- The Borderlanders: It must have required some heavy persuation, and at least a touch of compulsion to get the Borderlander leaders to abandon their posts when they are certain the last battle is coming. It is plausible that they initially wanted to seek out the dragon rebord to gain his allegence, but the size of the army the led, and the amount of time they have sat and waited makes this unrealistic without some intervention. Also the suspicious way that they are acting (hiding in Far Madding, asking him to come within the barrier, 13 unidentified Aes Sedai) shows that they don't have a simple agenda with Rand. Also suspicious is that We haven't seen any emmisaries from them even though they walked right by one of his obvious power bases at the Black Tower. I think this is also Demandred, and that instead of posing as one of the actual leaders, who would be difficult to impersonate, he is compelling and manipulating them from the shadows. I actually think that the 13 AS are evidence that they are affiliated with a Forsaken. Everyone knows that 13 AS together is an overt threat to a man who can channel, and both AS emmisaries to Rand took pains to at least pretend to have far fewer than 13.

- Murandy: Murandy isn't obvious but I think your arguments are worth considering. Also, not that distance is much of a factor to one of the Forsaken, but I find it interesting that Murandy, Caemlyn (BT), and Far Madding are quite close together, and Ghealdan (where Perrin first picked Masema up) isn't that far off. Greandal says that events to the south had Demandreds fingerprints on them, and all of these proxies are in the south.

Think that this is too much for one Forsaken to handle? I don't think so. Instead of posing as a leader of a nation and doing all the day to day things that would require him to maintain his cover. I would assert that he has set himself up much the way Greandal did, in a comfortable but out of the way manor, and just pulled strings from there. I think Murandy is the most likely candidate for this since it is not in total chaos, so he could more easily live in comfort, but it is not settled the way many of the other countries have been recently, which could make it difficult to remain unnoticed. We don't know a whole lot about Demandred other than he is a vain and jealous man, so I think he would actually want to live in comfort unlike Moridin. He is also a military leader, so he would want armies at his disposal. And, he wants to create chaos, we saw him take this order directly from the dark one and pass it on to the other Forsake, which is significant. So these proxies fit him quite well. Black Tower gives him powerful armies (and some chaos), Masema gives him armies and lots of chaos, Borderlanders give him vast armies, and Murandy gives him comfort and likely some armies as well.

thanks again for helping spark some last minute discussion with this theory!


Senbonzakura1: 2010-11-01

In the end, you could be right with the Borderlanders, I did sorta put a few of my own self doubts in the theory about them, with the 13 Aes Sedai and what not, and control of the Black Tower would add the channeling army as to what Tamrylin pointed out. Oh, and you're welcome.

As for Shara, I remain doubtful, mainly due to a) the Ayyad being in charge and b) It isn't stated if Shara has a sort of military system at all, nevertheless one that would attract a noted general such as Demandred.

As for Seanchan Mainland, Semirhage sorta left the place in ruins are killing the Imperial Family. The place is in complete chaos; not much to rule, let alone rally forces from.


Senbonzakura1: 2010-11-01

And also, Lupus, Tenobia introduced Ethenielle to her uncle, Kalyan Ramsin. He is described as scarred and grizzled, has a face like an eagle, and thick mustaches.


heavytabbs: 2010-11-01

the mirror of mists can shroud a person in any way, so don't rule out a person just because of their looks. One final point. Perrin is en route to Rand, which will lead him across Murandy IF they don't use gateways. Coincidence? probably not. SOMETHING is probably going to happen with Perrin in Murandy, and Demandred might just be involved.


brother of Battles: 2010-11-03

I know it goes against what we have been told but I can totally see Davrim Bashere(?) being Demandred. He couldn't be, but it would be an interesting twist.

Oh, and if he isn't, he is probably a darkfriend.... Just throwing it out there.


heavytabbs: 2010-11-03

@ brother of battles:
I can actually see him being a darkfriend. It's the perfect setup, he's depicted as one of the few people Rand trusts, which would be a great twist, and he went against Tenobia's orders for what can only be called "feeble" reasons. No general would commit what was basically treason because of rumors of a false dragon. Yes it was rumors of a false dragon (correct me if I'm wrong) that lured him off of Taim's tail (why would one false dragon be more important than another). What might have happened? He found Taim, found that they both are darkfriends and let him go, perhaps even plotting with him to go to Rand's "aide." It all does fit, even if it doesn't quite make sense on the surface. However, I don't think he's Demandred... like you said.

P.S. Bashere would have only known rumors about Rand and couldn't possibly have known 100% sure that he was the real Dragon Reborn when setting off to find him.


Homeschool: 2010-11-04

@Brother of Battles / HeavyTabbs - I'm leaning toward Bashere being a compulsion-bomb. Acting completely normally, but with a hidden trigger, at which point the compulsion becomes active and he turns into a Shadow assassin.

Also, without going into spoilers, I'm more convinced of this theory than I was before.

Once ToM is old enough to not ruin anybody's fun, I'd love to see this revisited with ToM references for evidence.


Senbonzakura1: 2010-11-04

Homeschool, that will be fun, I just finished reading Towers of Midnight myself, and the references will be....interesting.


MarieAnz: 2010-11-05

Hi, everyone, I'm brand new to the site but have been reading the books for 17 years. I finished ToM on Wednesday, and think that we were given some pretty strong clues about Demandred's whereabouts, and... if I'm right at all... they do not bode well in the least. Please let me know when it be alright for me to start posting my theories from the clues in the new book?


Lorcin: 2010-11-07

I personnely think that Bashere was probably manipulated by the Tarvan (sorry for spelling errors) effect as we know that with pevious Tarvan people would offen do the opposite of what they intended and diidn't he come just as he needed a general to lead his southern armies a the Ael don't know how to use cavalry or pretty much arm southern troups not to mention that their used to fitter troups also to back this point up remember the disaster when liberating Cairien if it hadn't been for Mat the whole tactic would have fallen apart due to incompetent leader ignoring the battle plan.


Firseal: 2010-11-07

Do recall that Demandred, at one point, spied on a meeting between Elayne and (I believe, going on old memories) Egwene in the throne room of Caemlyn. He then used a gateway out of T'A'R. Gateways out of T'A'R, as far as any of us have seen, more or less go to the same places in the real world.

This scene, if anyone feels like digging it up, is in either LoC or CoS. It also heavily implies that Demandred is someone who wouldn't be in danger popping into the Caemlyn throne room at a time when Rand held the country effortlessly.

Food for thought, there.


cawdor19: 2010-11-08

#Tom Spoilers in this post

I have thought that Demandred must be with another race "gathering an army". I think Shara is a good bet, and I think i remember something about the "sharpened teeth" from there. I believe he is responsible for the "red veiled" aiel would be. That we see at the end of "Towers of Midnight". Also it seems pretty clear to my mind that Graendal killed Asmodmean. The statement Moridin made to Granedal following her getting Aran'gar killed. He made a statement close to "Are you making a habit of this" referring to killing forsaken is how I took that and then something to the effect "You don't claim Aran'gar was a traitor too".


MarieAnz: 2010-11-09

#Tom Spoilers in this comment.

After finishing the Towers of Midnight, I am pretty certain that Demandred just sacked the Seanchan mainland. The Tower of Ravens is broken- it would alomst take a force of strong channelers to do that, and there are references to a "murderer on the throne". That doesn't sound like Fortuona/ Tuon. I think that there is a good chance Seanchan is now divided into two factions, and it seems like a logical choice for Demandred to have situated himself in one of the last seats of power left in the world. It also fits the fact that there seem to be two conflicting prophecies regarding the Seanchan- one dark, one not.

I'm also pretty sure that those red-veiled "Aiel" things are not Demandered's army- but rather Fain's. I think he is creating them from the blood we see him spilling on the ground in the Blight. He seems to have become a dark horse candidate for Ruler of the Known Universe by way of murdering the competition.


WoTcasual: 2010-11-09

You claim the only possibilities are "This leaves Murandy, Ghealdan, Altara, Amadicia, and the Borderlands".

You failed to include the Saenchan empire, Seandar. Originally I took Graendal at her word and thought the borderlands army was Demandred's, but After reading "ToM" I guess Seandar is more likely. "Puppet child empress" Fortuana is unaware that the forsaken Demandred rules her kingdom.


Lyri: 2010-11-09

I have also been leaning toward Seandar for Demandred. With Rand bringing so many nations under his influence, I have a hard time seeing Demandred satisfied with anything less than controlling an empire. I guess Shara is also possible, but I would be disappointed if Demandred's playground is a realm that has basically been a rarely mentioned curiosity that has had no impact on the plot through 13 books. Seandar on the other hand...well nearly the entire royal family was wiped out and forsaken have manipulated them in the past. Also, the power structure in Seandar seems perfect for a forsaken power-play. I know Semirhage was working the Seanchan, but that's a big a big job and I doubt she could handle everything while impersonating Anath. Besides, Demandred, Semirhage and Mesaana had at least a loose alliance, so it makes sense to me that their efforts would have a certain amount of synergy. This would be one reason why we haven't seen Demandred or his alter ego at work, since we haven't had a Seandar based POV. I think either Seander or Shara makes sense, but Seandar makes more sense to me.


Mattismyfavorite: 2010-11-10

I finished ToM a few days ago and have been letting it digest…Starting it again tonight when I get off of work. (By the way I’m new here and plan to spend A LOT of time here). A few of my theories panned out…very happy about that…and have more I’d like to discuss with you all after everyone has had a chance to finish the book themselves. I don’t want to mess up anybody’s chance to enjoy ToM first hand.

You all make compelling arguments about Demandred being in Seandar…I’ve always had this little nagging at the back of my mind about Seandar and the Crystal Thorne and it just wouldn’t fit together with the prophecy’s from this side of the ocean. Let me first tell you why I was troubled…the prophecy’s of the Dragon Reborn and of He who comes with the Dawn seemed to dovetail together, they didn’t oppose or contradict one another. It’s not as if you had to believe one or the other…they kinda went together.

The trouble I was having about the Seanchan and the Dragon Reborn has always centered around those 2 prophecies. The one that says that the Dragon will kneel before the Crystal Thorne and the Prophecy’s of the Dragon which says something to the effect that the Dragon will tie the Daughter of the 9 Moons to him. I could never resolve in my mind how she could be “tied to” Rand and how he would kneel to her if she were tied to him this didn’t make sense to me as with the others that had dovetailed – these 2 were in contrast to each other in my mind. And then I’m reading all these theories here on this site and it hit me and I apologize if this has already been stated before, like I said I’m new.

But when I really think about the conversations about the Dragon kneeling before the Crystal Throne…it’s always said exactly that…that he would kneel before the Crystal Throne, not that he would kneel before the Empress (may she live forever). And when you take into account that the Dragon prophecy’s say that the Tuon would be tied to him…that’s exactly what it said that the “Daughter of the 9 Moons” would be tied to him not the Empress, so somehow Tuon is going to be tied to the Dragon (thanks to my Matt, she is) but not as the Empress which she is at the end of The Gathering Storm.

So this is what I think…the empire of Seandar is going to be taken from her. And then Rand could kneel to the Crystal Throne without having to knell before someone tied to him. Which allows both prophecy’s to exsist without conflict or contradiction. I do think that Demandred is with the Seanchan…I’m leaning toward the Questioners(?)…can’t remember his name or exact title though, my books are at home. This would definitely be something that Demandred would work toward very hard. I’m sure he knows of this prophecy and would want to place himself in a position where Lews Therin would have to kneel to him.


ilikethehorse: 2010-11-10

*ToM Spoilers*

One thing that stood out to me in my first read through of ToM was the red symbolism. In the beginning of the book i remember reading about red sailed ships off the coast of Seanchan and then theres the infamous red veiled aiel at the end of the book.

If you think about it in terms of Taim being Dems man rather than Moridins (which i am not sure of at all as Ishy seems to be the only person who could have taught a young Taim) the black in the M'hael's motifs could just be the influence of the black tower and the red is really a calling card of demandreds influence?

As a tactician in the AoL its not too far fetched to think that maybe Demandred has concentrated on gathering together disparate elements of malcontents to form an army that will be vital for the last battle.

It Would nicely tie together vaguely mentioned plot elements such as the male aiel channelers being sent to shayol ghul, the land of the madmen, shara and Seanchan (which we've seen remarkably little of considering tuon and co.s importance).

Just my thoughts on this point as Murandy does seem an exceptionally weak place for a forsaken to gather forces.

It also seems unlikely that a forsaken would have just kept quiet while a huge amount of aes sedai just marched across his territory.


Mightypeon: 2010-11-11

Well, regarding the "Tied to him" thing, I guess that:
-Tuon can channel
-Tuon gets collared by Rand with a "male Suldam-female damane" version, or Rand inverts (changing the roles of Suldam and Damane) a bracelet that is on him.
-Rand comfortably kneels, since he has Tuon collared
-Tuon saves her face since nobody, apart from her, knows about her being collared
-Rand releases her later, in line with his new "look I am a nice guy" attitude.
-Binding her to him may also mean that the new "male binds female" adam prevents tuon from beeing collared by anybody else (sidenote, what happens if a Damane is collared by 2 Adams?) -Alternativly, Rand Warderbonds Tuon.

Basically, there are a couple of ways to "bind" her, and after doing that, there is no problem at all in kneeling before her throne.


Zainterus: 2010-11-13

@ilikethehorse - Aren't red and black Moridin's colors? I distinctly remember Moghedien and Lanfear wearing red and black once under Moridin's command.

@Mattismyfavorite - I think I am confusing theories now but if the Seanchan prophecy states that Rand will kneel before the Crystal Throne does that specifically mean he is bowing TO the Crystal Throne? I mean if Egwene and Rand go to Seandar to resolve the Seanchan conflict could he end up bowing to her in the prescence of the Crystal Throne? I'm not sure if it holds any credibility but the idea just popped into my head.

In regards to Demandred in Seanchan or Shara I think they both could be ideal BUT i have a problem with Seanchan and an idea for Shara. Seanchan-if the land is in near total chaos then why would Demandred tell Moridin his lands were stable? unless this is a chronological problem with the Forsaken meeting in tGS BEFORE Semirhage kills the former Empress in which case this problem is totally irrelevant. Shara-I feel Shara (or even Murandy) makes a lot of sense because RJ said he wasn't in any non-forsaken-meeting-scene and neither Shara nor Murandy have much play time in Randland. There is still the problem with Murandy's lack of potence but it could also be a southern source of invasion due to Waygates.


Joar Addam Ness0sin: 2010-11-13

Demamandred says "We gather, we will be ready." before Semirhage is actually dead, She is the tripod alliance between Mesaana, himself and Semirhage. Is it possible they both worked the Seanchean together? It seems unlikely considering their past. Also Demandred and Osan'gar were "responsible for watching al'thor" How could he do this from Seandar?

That being said i still find it among the most likely spots for him to be, if you chose to accept the comment "My rule is secure" as though this is a new found thing and he was re assuring moridin that he has seanchen back under the DO's thumb. Shara, Murandy, and someone close to Rand seem to be the only other likely things as this point ruling out Taim of course, since we have no choice but to. They even sit a chair similiar.

Obviously there can be no evidence for Shara except we know that neither Demandred nor his proxy have been in a scene, what are two places we have absolutely never seen, Shara and Lugard. I lean slightly to Murandy for these reasons. 1) it fits the south, and its an area in upheavel like the places forsaken have taken over. 2)Once the forsaken begin to look for Mat and Perrin, pictures appear of both in backwater Murandian countries, as verin tell mat in aMoL. He may have hired and held onto the band as a way to eventually find mat if he knew that mat led them. Also he had 2! copies of a book that few outside the AoL have even heard of, Comradrins that is. Demandred as a noted General would obviously be aware of the treasure that that book is


Lyri: 2010-11-13

@Zainterus: IIRC Demandred told Moridin that his rule is secure, not stable. I don't think the forsaken place a high priority on stable governing, and chaos is good according to the DO.

Also, with the LB looming right around the corner, does Rand's Aelfin Q&A about the North and the East being one and the South and West being one and the two being one eliminate Murandy as being Demandred's seat of power? Because I guess that would seriously throw a monkey wrench in the plan.


Zainterus: 2010-11-15

@ LYRI & @ Joar Addam Ness0sin - Thanks for the info/speculation I think both comments are very plausible. If they are completely and utterly correct then where could he be? Shara is out for the same reason Seanchan is (Joar Addam Ness0sin's comment about Demandred and Osan'gar watching Rand)and Murandy is out because of the N+S+E+W=1 info. Maybe he actually does rule at the BT and Taim is a front? Pure speculation but I can't think of anything else at the moment.


Flinn Sedai: 2010-11-15

I was mildly in support of this theory prior to reading Towers of Midnight. Now, given the events within, and the comments by Sanderson following, I feel it is undeniably true.

As was mentioned, it is extraordinarily odd that Murandy managed to unite, and become ordered while every other country in Randland was becoming disordered. Especially at the top of leadership, especially in a country renowned for giving birth to contentious and ornery people, which has not been united under one leader in a long time (don't have my books with me, so hopefully somebody can find the timeframe on that). I don't think people are giving credit for how unusual that is, in and of itself.

Every country gets torn apart by Dragonsworn, war and infighting amongst nobles, except the country known for having war, infighting amongst nobles and various mercenary groups? Come on....

I'll address the other ideas people have been putting forth, then present the Towers of Midnight points.

Seandar -

Impossible for 2 major reasons. Firstly, the rule wouldn't be secure. He would have to contend with Tuon, have her under Compulsion, or Compulse pretty much every Seanchan. For reason of, "it's just nonsense," let's rule out the last option. Now, the two options that leaves are being exclusively on the other side of the Ocean (dealing with Tuon), or be on this side of the Ocean (would be Karede or Galgan as his alter-ego, putting her under Compulsion).

Not under Compulsion per Sanderson:

" Tuon's refusal was mainly due to her innate sense of self."

Now, it is EXTREMELY unlikely that Demandred would have her go to meet Rand about a deal, without giving her Compulsion telling her not to agree.

In addition, if he were on the other side of the Ocean, he'd just gather the armies together, and Compulse Tuon. The other side of the Ocean is in complete disarray. This is the opinion of Semirhage early on, and Tuon's reports later. That's pretty conclusive.

Because his rule wouldn't be secure in Seandar, Seandar is in disarray, and he wasn't Compulsing Tuon, he doesn't have the Seanchan army.

Borderland Armies -

Given the Prophecies the Borderlanders had, he would have stopped them from leaving. Moreover, he would have gone with them, possibly assuming the role of one of the Monarchs (a theory I thought equally likely until the end of ToM). Firstly, Rand can identify Darkfriends by sight now. Demandred would be even more recognizable, even in a Mask of Mirrors. Secondly, he would have Compulsed the Borderland Monarchs not to follow him. Finally, Sanderson has said that he has been referenced, but not seen on screen.

Towers of Midnight killed the Borderlanders theory. It was viable up until then, though.

Black Tower -

At the end of ToM, Shaidar Haran says that he has another who is taking care of problems for him now. He says, "another". He does not say, "Demandred is succeeding, and you have failed!" SH, the DO and Moridin all make reference to how other Chosen are doing, to counterpoint the person to whom they're talking. This was not done.

The only DF we KNOW who is accomplishing big things is Taim (forming up my Theory on the BT). However you slice it, he's gotten the DO HUGE numbers of channelers. That's certainly a good counterpoint to Graendal killing 3 Chosen on her own (she's giving Rand a run for his money, by the way).

Taim is clearly in charge of the DT.

Now, those are the big 3 contenders I've seen on here. Just to bring up another point, I'd like to point out the following. Below is a list of all the Countries in Randland, and their respective allegiances re: main characters. Which one stands out?

Saldaea - Borderland (Rand, sort of)
Kandor - Borderland (Rand, sort of)
Arafel - Borderland (Rand, sort of)
Shienar - Borderland (Rand, sort of)
Tar Valon - Aes Sedai (Egwene)
Carhien - Rand/Elayne
Tear - Rand
Far Madding - No Channeling. No army. No Allegiance. Demandred is clearly not here.
Illian - Rand
Murandy - Refused Egwene. Unknown Allegiance.
Andor - Elayne
Baerlon - Perrin/Elayne
Ghealdean - Perrin/Elayne
Amadicia - Seanchan
Altara - Seanchan
Ebou Dar - Seanchan
Tarabon - Seanchan
Whitecloaks - Not a country, but a sizable army. Nonetheless, by Galad's own admission: Elayne, Perrin, Rand, Egwene.

The only two that haven't picked a side are Far Madding and Murandy, in ALL OF RANDLAND. Far Madding has 300 reasons why it wouldn't be under Demandred's rule. Didn't even choose a side in the War of the Shadow, so if they could, they would have back then. And has no real army. And Demandred is not going to expose himself like that.

As for the Towers of Midnight specific points -

First thing to note was that in Towers of Midnight on the field they are meeting Rand at, the only Country that didn't have representation of some sort besides for the Seanchan, is Murandy.

Besides the other evidence I've pointed out in here about Towers of Midnight, there are Sanderson's comments on Demandred.

Q: Was Demandred or his proxy in Towers of Midnight?
A: No he was not; he will be in A Memory of Light.

Q: I believe I've figured out who Demandred is based solely on Lord of Chaos. Is this possible?
A: It MIGHT be possible. I honestly can't remember where all of the clues are.

Twitter post: I will say only this: There ARE clues. I think it could be figured out. Maybe. It's much, much harder than Asmodean's killer.

Now, admittedly, the second person was probably talking about Taim, but the real information comes from the answer that was given, as well as the others. That information tells us the following:

1. We have not seen Demandred's alter ego yet.
2. It IS possible to figure out who Demandred is impersonating.
3. He was at least mentioned several books ago.

Those 3 points together rule out all the other candidates on this list, and point strongly to Roedran in their own right.

In my opinion, this theory has been proven as right as it possibly can be, without flat out saying, "Demandred is Roedran!"


Zainterus: 2010-11-16

Bravo, Flinn Sedai, bravo. Due to the information presented you seem to be correct in my opinion. Any thoughts on Shara? Anyways This is a great presentation of info but i guess the real answer4 is going to have to wait a year!


Flinn Sedai: 2010-11-16

Q: Will we see more from Shara or the Land of the Madmen?

A: RJ said there would be no major action in Shara. He was uncertain on Madmen.

Q: Will Shara get any screen time?

RJ: Read and find out. I don't know, actually. There are things that need to happen that might have to happen there, but it will be a lot easier if I can make them happen somewhere else.

Kate from State College PA: In a previous statement I believe you had basically said that the action of the series would take place in the Lands known to Rand and his friends i.e. not Shara or Seanchan and yet the new book has alot of stuff about those lands--have you changed your mind? Is action in either of these two lands a possibility now?

RJ: No. Except for the possible occasional divergence, except for Rand's excursions to Seanchan when he chased after Aviendha. I was willing to put as much as I did into the the guide because I will not be using those things in the books in the same way that I used Kandor or Saldaea.

There are no plans to visit Seanchan in any greater extent than it already has been visited, and there are not going to be any visits to Shara either.

While he does leave it open (to an extent), he also says that there are no solid plans. He had to already know where Demandred was going to be. It wasn't going to be something he was just figuring out near the end of the series. This was pretty much the only reason I ruled out Shara. I liked the idea of him being in Shara early on in the series.


wotfreak222: 2010-11-16


I only have one problem with Murandy at this's so obvious. I mean, everyone has been thinking Murandy for two or three books now - it is relatively stable (as far as we know), and it didn't figure into TofM at all, which fits what Brandon has said about Demandred not being in the book at all. It's kind of like Asmo's killer being Graendal....there was no direct evidence, it was all wasn't anyone else, so it MUST have been her. It isn't anywhere else, so it MUST be Murandy.


Lyri: 2010-11-16

Regarding Seandar:

1. I believe the plan was that the entire royal family be killed, including Tuon. Thanks largely to Mat, she escaped that fate and there were never any plans to have her operate under compulsion. With Seandar's rather rigid social structure + the crystal throne, I don't see why any forsaken who took control would need to use compulsion on every seanchan. The throne would do the work for the upper echelon of the Blood and the seachan's absolute hierarchy would likely keep the rest under control...for the time being. I think all bets would be off in a confrontation between Tuon and whoever is in control of Seandar now however. I think it would be pretty funny if Demandred gated a seanchan army to Randland only to have it pinched by Tuon :D

2. SOMEBODY is in control over in Seandar. It could be a random, ambitious Seanchan, but I don't think it is impossible that it is Demandred. I doubt the Corenne represents the entire might of the Seanchan Empire. I'd be willing to bet that the old Empress kept back a significant portion of the military, as well as damane. So I think that whoever is in control of the crystal throne probably has access to an army as well as damane. Plus the Gardeners and other deathwatch guards.

From the interview section:

Q: So will there ever be a confrontation between the Seanchan Ogier and the other Ogier?

RJ: They will meet.. (in other words RAFO)

This doesn't prove anything, but it is suggestive to me. The LB seems hours to days from beginning. The Seanchan Ogier are in Seandar and the damane left across the ocean don't have access to Traveling. *IF* we see the Seanchan Ogier in the LB (and I don't know that we will for sure), someone who knows the Traveling weaves and is in a position of authority in Seandar would most likely have to gate them to Randland. This makes me think Forsaken. I think this is food for thought.

I think there are still several possibilities, but I don't see Seandar as being ruled out yet. I'm probably going to think it's lame if it's Murandy though.


AJFred: 2010-11-19

I remember reading that Demandred was "south". They never really got more specific then that that I know of. The thing is, the other Forsaken don't even seem to know where he is and all the evidence that Murandy is iffy leads me to believe that Demandred is south, very south. I am wondering if he isn't in the Land of Madmen. I mean, how terrifying would it be if he managed to start pouring crazed channelers out into the main land all pointed in the direction of our heroes? That is my theory at least.


vaticanassassin: 2010-11-24

Were the pointed-teeth warriors with red veils in Kandor in ToM not Sharan? And if so, does this not infer that a forsaken has "Secure rule" in Shara and made it's armies ready? How long does it take to "gather for war" in Murandy? You could get every soldier in the nation together in a few days, no? But to gather an entire empire's armies together for the first time and transport them across the waste by portal or otherwise, is that not work worthy of a forsaken? If I were the D.O., I would use send Demandred, my best military strategist to Shara before Murandy (and why not both).

The Wiki description of Shara: "At the present time, rumors have come from across the Aiel Waste that there is anarchy and chaos in Shara, with a segment of the population apparently sparked off by the disappearance of the rulers of the country. The people of Shara allegedly ask when the Dragon will appear to destroy the world, leading Rand al'Thor to believe that he is responsible for the anarchy. Whether these events will have any impact on the Last Battle remains to be seen."

So, the rulers have "disappeared", and have become pets of Graendel. However, Graendel is too busy failing with Perrin to be marshaling the armies of Shara. Perhaps they were given to her by Demandred in exchange for information, perhaps she had to perform the original destabilization of Shara due to their restrictions on male channelers. Regardless, the nation fell into chaos, and the people have been led to believe the dragon is to blame and will destroy the world, "injuring" Rand by giving him more guilt for just another ruined country due to him. Sounds like textbook forsaken tactics to me!

As for those who think Demandred may be in Seanchan, I must disagree. The novel's title Towers of Midnight is obviously important, and glossary index holds the clue. Under the "Towers of Midnight" we see the description: "Legend has it that in time of dire need, the Imperial family will return to the Towers of Midnight and "right what has been wrong." Semirhage killed the Imperial court and left Seanchan in ruins, hardly a place which has been secured, but more importantly, according to prophecy, Seanchan will come under rule of those who follow the light and order will be restored.

Since Murandy is the only nation which did not respond to Egwene's summons, we can assume that Demandred has many roles.


HannaClay: 2010-11-24

I posted this in our Facebook group (I'm sure there are a few ideas that are duplicated throughout.)(Also, I refer to him by his given name, Barid Bel.)

"Okay, I was debating answering the other Barid Bel posts, but since I usually answer with short stories if not full-blown book responses, I figured I'd better just do my own. From the very beginning, when they first started showing up, I have been die-hard in placing my money on Demandred (there, I called him it once, but for anyone who doesn't know, I always refer to him by his given's a quirk of mine, so sue me :P ) Anyway, despite the fact that we've never actually seen where he is, there are tell-tale clues all over.

First off, I'll start with Ishamael's death. It's thought of (by Graendal) that someone is making sure that Ishamael's orders were being carried out. Since all of the Chosen were already in place, the ONLY one who could have been available was Barid Bel. Why would he make sure the orders were carried out rather than come up with his own? Because he's incredibly smart and calculating. He isn't stupid enough to try and take over that early in the game. We've seen throughout the whole series how every last one of the Chosen has screwed up, with the exception of Barid Bel. With the military experience RJ had, he showed right away (to me at least) which of the Chosen was going to be the "End Game General". He built his influence slowly, subtly, without betraying himself to anyone. So, as a calculating person would, he patiently waited for his time to come, making certain that the DO knew how loyal he was. (It never hurts to impress the Boss.)

Second, there is Sammael's statements about how events in the South have Barid Bel's touch apparent. What was going on in the South at the time? Two things: the Prophet and the Whitecloaks. We know, from Masema's PoV as well as from Perrin's observance of him, that he was definitely being manipulated by outside forces. There were times Perrin noticed his scent changing too quickly for one man. Then there are the instances when Masema seems like he's actually unaware of what he's doing (in WH, when Perrin is telling him he's going after Faile, "There will be a...dispensation, in this one instance. Only to find your wife, because you are his friend. Only this." He spoke calmly--calmly for him--but his deep-set eyes were dark fire, his face contorted with unknowing rage), because he's being controlled by someone else perhaps? Also, Masema was "visited" by the Dragon, who charged him with gathering his people, smiting those who opposed him, even telling him the night before the attack on Malden that Perrin needed to be killed. Everyone talks about how Taim is a logical choice for him to control (I'll get to him in a bit, trust me), how much more logical a choice would Masema be? Think of everything that was done by the Prophet and his "people"; the sheer, utter chaos of it all. And he was acting, he thought, in Rand's name. And of course, a good lot of people believe Rand capable of the atrocities they carried out (hell, it was one of the reasons Morgase decided to stay with Perrin, so she could find out how to save Elayne and Andor from him). This leads back to the "supposed" plan to free Taim that Joiya claimed Liandrin was going to do. Free him, and let him commit atrocities while calling himself Rand al'Thor. We know that Ishamael was directing the BA, until his death in tDR, and I doubt there is a single person who doesn't believe Taim is a Darkfriend. We'll never know if that was really a plan...but someone helped Taim get away. What's ironic is that Siuan had Logain lie about the Reds planning on gaining influence by raising him as a false Dragon is very likely what happened with Taim...only it was Black Sisters feeding him the info. Someone had to have killed the AS who had him shielded, because he had been taken captive during the battle at Falme. (I got ahead of myself there and went on the Taim tangent...back to the South...) Anyway, finding someone to create as much chaos that the Prophet created was too much to happen just by chance.

Then there are the Whitecloaks. Pedron Niall was already working on things before Fain showed up as Ordeith. If you remember from tGH, the Whitecloaks had been ordered to Falme, answering only to the Questioners, and having to disguise themselves as Taraboners or Domani, stirring up more chaos and destruction. Up until that point, Niall wouldn't have set himself up as the "savior" of the world on his own. The whole setting up a rabid lion so he could take it down came after he had already "decided" that T'G was coming, and that he would lead the forces of the Light against Shadowspawn and the new Dreadlords. (Sound familiar at all to the same thought Masema had??) So which one was being influenced by Barid Bel? Both.

Then we have the groups of Dragonsworn fighting all over the don't really think they were doing all that on their own without anyone to work them up? Especially come WH, when Ituralde has the meeting at Graendal's old lodge with the Taraboners and the Domani, there are Dragonsworn present, and the one who challenges Ituralde with the "If you ask us to fight for Arad Domon, then ask us!" lean man, with a sharp nose, his eyes hard and keen. You should really re-read that part of Glimmers. That whole encounter with the man speaks volumes.

Next, we have the Seanchan. We know that Semirhage was directly influencing the Empress (who didn't live forever!), but what about the rest of the Empire? When Semirhage told Suroth Radhanan was dead, she told her that the whole country was in chaos. Now, no matter how many "seclusions" Anath went into, the fact remains that between Tuon and the whole masquerading as her until her capture, plus the fact that most of the chaos that occured after she was taken by Rand, indicates that someone was there still stirring the pot to boiling. Who out of all the Chosen was available, and knew where Semirhage set up her influence? Barid Bel, of course. Whether or not the "murderer who sits on the Throne" is Barid Bel or not, he's definitely had the opportunity to manipulate the situation. In fact, he's the ONLY one who has!

Then there is Tel'aran'rhiod. We know someone is spying on the World of Dreams, someone other than Slayer, the BA, Moghedien or Lanfear. While we know Moridin makes use of it occasionally, Barid Bel is the only one who has been alive and free every time it's mentioned, not to mention the fact that he watched Elayne in the Throne Room (another "string" to pull) with Egwene, and they couldn't tell. They said that for someone to physically enter T'a'R, they would lose a piece of their humanity every time they did it. Does anyone really think being "humane" concerns Barid Bel? We also know because of this that Barid Bel is near Caemlyn (you don't really think he just hangs around in T'a'R waiting for someone to show up do you?) Caemlyn is showing the same signs that all the other cities have (Tear, Illian, Tar Valon, Ebou Dar, Tanchico) when one of the Chosen is present, because of the DO's influence. Where near Caemlyn can he be? Other than the Black Tower?

Of course, we come to Taim. If there was no other evidence of him being a Darkfriend, the simple fact that in KoD he quoted Barid Bel to Pevara is more than enough. "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule." In LoC, it starts with Barid Bel going to Shayol Ghul. The DO gives him his orders. He relays the "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule" command to ONLY Semirhage, Mesaana and Graendal. With everything that happens in LoC, at the end, Barid Bel is again in Shayol Ghul, "Have I not done well?" Of all the Chosen, Barid Bel is the ONLY one we've actually seen the DO approving of (even Ishamael was allowed to suffer for failure at Falme. The DO could have had Semirhage Heal his wound, but instead, he was left with it.) So what all happened in LoC that Barid Bel had a hand in? More like, what DIDN'T he have a hand in? We've already established Masema, the Whitecloaks, the Dragonsworn, the Seanchan, the Black Tower and the Asha'man, T'a'R even. It's even possible that he was part of the driving force behind Arymilla's push for the Lion Throne (Sylvase's Taraboner torturer, Jaq Lounalt, "who could reduce someone to begging with just a few cords.") Everyone in her camp, everyone in Elayne's, can't really figure out how she ended up in charge. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that she was far more stupid and easier to control than the others? Rahvin would have known that. Knowing the names of the people to watch wouldn't have been hard, especially when Birgitte flat-out says that the Chosen are wandering around T'a'R, stalking each other, and that Semirhage and Barid Bel are watching them, undetected. Imagine being Moghedien or Lanfear, both so proud over how much control they have over T'a'R, being watched by Semirhage and Barid Bel and not even knowing it??

And then there is his statement in tGS: No one kills Rand BUT him, and Moridin agrees, adding only that it's Barid Bel or the DO himself that will have that right. While Chosen are being abandoned for failure (Semirhage, Asmodean, Aginor (the second time around as Dashiva at the Cleansing...the DO still could have brought him back again)), punished for failure (Moghedien, Lanfear/Cyndane, Graendal, Mesaana, even Ishamael), Barid Bel is the ONLY Chosen who the DO has singled out for praise. Ishamael may be Nae'blis, but Barid Bel is the one who gets to lead the Shadow's forces against the Light come T'G. And remember, from what Graendal noticed about Moridin: he's not exactly his own man anymore. The DO is controlling him directly, conversing with him directly. Which would you rather be? Nae'blis, meaning you're the DO's pet toy? Or the General commanding the Shadow's armies to annihilate those who oppose the DO?

So, we have:

The Whitecloaks
The Dragonsworn
The Seanchan
The Black Tower
(perhaps) The battle for the Lion Throne.
And above all else, the army of the Shadow.

I didn't bring up Shara, or the Borderlanders. In part, because I think they are obvious choices...TOO obvious. Everyone assumes that "My rule is secure" means that he's controlling a throne. How about the fact that he was a Government official back before the War for Power started and like the Roman Senators of old, knows how to manipulate those in power? His "rule" could very well be just this: that those he has influence over are so convinced of what they are doing that they are completely unaware anyone is pulling their strings. If there is any truth to him controlling the Borderlanders it's in the fact that they aren't where they should be. Given what we know of the Borderlanders, would those rulers actually abandon guarding against the Blight to come after Rand? Even Lan was horrified at what they had done. Bashere is different: he didn't take more men than could be afforded from the defense of Saldaea. But the 4 rulers brought most of the men they could (we see from the one attack in ToM how stretched thin the Borderlands defenses are) to go chasing around the South after Rand, convinced that they THEMSELVES had to stop Rand. If the Dragon has been reborn, and all evidence points to T'G being around the corner, and your people had spent 3000 years guarding against the Blight, would you just pick up and go chasing after someone?? So I'll grant that it's possible Barid Bel is influencing them, though I'll be disappointed if that is the case because it's simply too blatant.

All I know for absolute certain is what Brandon told me flat out when I asked him. I expected a RAFO when I asked if the reason Barid Bel hasn't been openly seen is because RJ was saving the Best for last, and he flat out stated that Barid Bel would be the Prime Mover for the Shadow come T'G. Period."


Homeschool: 2010-12-10

@HANNACLAY - You made a few points that rather drew together for me, there.

"Let the Lord of Chaos rule."
"My rule is secure."

Demandred, Semirhage and Mesaana generally work together. The obvious points are that Seanchan and the White Tower (the two greatest powers in the world) were both broken. But also consider, that these two caused the most damage to Rand - his first torture and insanity born by his capture, and his disfiguration and second torture by Mesaana. While both of their plots could be said to have failed, neither seems to have reflected back on Demandred, who was almost undoubtedly running the show, as the only strategist of the group.

While uncertain, Masema may have been manipulated by Demandred as well - the perpetrator is unidentified. The Dragonsworn chaos is likely the target of Sammael seeing Demandred's hand to the south. Pure chaos there.

So, if Demandred's mission is to "let the Lord of Chaos rule", and he has succeeded in doing so... Might he not be said to be skilled, even a master, at sowing chaos?

Could Demandred BE the Lord of Chaos?

With no conquest or targets, but simply aiming to cause chaos everywhere, he could easily escape detection - plant a seed, destroy a bond, then walk away and leave it to whatever end. In "Lord of Chaos", chaos was definitely well spread, potentially lending to his having "done well" in the eyes of the Dark One.

If his "rule" is secure, but is not a kingdom... As Lord of Chaos, he rules chaos, and the spreading of it. His rule being secure could simply mean that he has imbalanced the events to the extent that the chaos cannot be stopped, but is carrying its own momentum.

Consider also, the Forsaken who remain: Ishamael, Demandred, Moghedien, Lanfear, and Graendal. Balance between the two sides is a major theme in the books (as evidenced by the yin-yang symbol). We can match the main characters of the light to their counterparts in the dark. Ishamael vs. Rand, even down to their bonding with women (incomplete, perhaps - Rand has been bonded by three, while Ishamael/Moridin only holds two soul traps, but perhaps Graendal's failure will correct that.) Perrin is matched to Slayer, both being twin-souled, masters of Tel'aran'rhiod, and hunters (in their own way.) But of this, it's long bothered me that Mat seems to have no counterpart. His twisting of the odds seems so significant that being unmatched seems like an obvious alarm. While his visions via portal stone and connections to the shadow suggest he may straddle the line (truly embodying chance), that also seems like a red herring. However, being matched to a master of war who is carefully contributing chaos to the world to make things so unpredictable that anything could happen? Lord of Chaos vs. Gambler makes perfect sense.

All things considered, I can't believe I didn't consider that possibility earlier.


matisodin: 2010-12-14

I like the thought that Demandred IS the Lord of Chaos. never crossed my mind. It's consistent with other epithets for powerful channellers, like Lord of the Morning or Lord of the Evening.

It also leads to another thought I've never had, which is that being first or highest among the Chosen may not be all its cracked up to be. Or at least it doesn't necessarily mean you call the shots.

You could also argue that those Forsaken recently punished by the DO are punished for failing in some way of executing the plans of the Lord of Chaos, who has been deemed to lead the forces on this turning of the Wheel. It was during/after LoC that we started seeing more of what happened to Demandred's posse.


rhino2129: 2010-12-17

Well, being The Lord of Chaos is one thing, but, is Moridin not Nae'blis? Is HE not the lealder of the Forsaken, short of the DO Himself? One could argue the fact either way, but, with Demi being so intelligent, I think that even he would have trouble with Moridin, not only because of Moridin's ruthlessness, but also because of the fact that he can channel the one power. Of course, it could also be a plan of the DO to sow discord among the Forsaken, but, at this late in the game, would it not be counterintuitive to have your strongest players at each others throats?


matisodin: 2010-12-17

Or maybe that being Nae'blis means Moridin is more of an enforcer or executor of the DO's will (a la D Vader and the Emp), and not necessarily a battle general or commander of the Dark's forces during a time of battle. The DO doesn't have to sow discord amongst the Forsaken- as far back as FOH, Chosen were offing each other of their own accord. If the DO wants to change his mind at the last second and put someone else in charge of coordinating efforts against the Dragon, well that's the DO's prerogative. What are you going to do about it?

We know that Demandred is the one Chosen whose singular focus is on killing the Dragon. He hates LTT more than he wants to be Nae'blis, it's why he swore to the DO. He wouldn't fight Moridin\Ishmaeal because he doesn't want to. Why not let Morishy go around and punish and check in on people while he turns the actual wheels of the war machine? Morishy has fought the Dragon time and again throughout the ages, and first went to the DO out of pragmatism. That practicality, at some point, might lead him (or the DO) to believe Morishy's soul is locked into a stalemate with the Dragon's soul, and that he can never get a definitive victory for the Dark. The practical thing to do would be to have someone else take charge, this turning of the Wheel.

Why not a decorated battle commander whose passionate hatred for LTT ensures his loyalty to the DO, more than the other Chosen? The rest bicker like Children and scheme more about being Nae'blis than carrying out the DO's will. It happens so much in Graendal POVs that it would be obscene if it went unnoticed


Lupusdeusest: 2010-12-20

Two randomnesses:

1. Anyone consider Ishy may have assisted in corrupting the Seanchan versions of the Kari Prophecies? There's an RJ quote that suggests this or at least that it was an effect of the conceit of one culture owning all known copies in isolation for generations. Heck, I think there was even some indications in the books themselves. (This is fairly early on in the series.) This would mean the whole kneeling to the CT may just be simple propaganda (or of darker intentions).

2. Someone posted up there about gateways from TAR leading back to their original location in The Real World. This pops up some interestingness of its own - was Dobby there at the time? Sylvase's man? We must also recall that the MoM is concealment enough in this case. (I've always disliked Dobby's obvious loyalty. Yes, I know some people could possibly be just loyal, and I confess it to be highly non-suspicious... but lol.)

Back onto the Mat track - who's keeping an eye on whom in ToM? Throughout the books there's usually been one for each Special Person or Place of Interest, but what's happening now? Is it possible or necessary for Mr DO to stick another Dashy'gar onto Rand? (On that note, along with the mysterious absence of Mighty Armies of Aes Sedai marching to aid the Borderlands (do they fear a Malkier repeat? I did love that forum post!) could Rand randomly visit every town? what Floaty Jesus Doctor Rand abilities have we not seen? And how is Floaty Jesus Rand affecting Twin-Aches Ishy? (ok, off the point there... back to our dear Barid. Or shall we name him Boris the Invisible?)


kav2001c: 2010-12-25

Here is my take on the entire where is Demandred and I just felt like sharing since noone else seems to have had same idea as me. I do not have background quotes so if anyone is willing to help flesh this out please do so.

1- The idea of Murandy is not really a bad idea as we know Andor is the key to the last battle. But as has been shown above it seems far fetched this would be Dems super army (since nooone can channel and they really have less manpower than other nations)

2- The quote that keeps sticking in my head was the one Samael made way back when (ACOS maybe?) Samael said Dem works through proxy and stuff in southern part of Randland has Dems fingerprints all over it (which again appears to point to a southern nation like Murandy)

3- RJ said repeatedly Dem is not Taim

4- Taim used to travel all the time, now we know he no longer needs to (as in TOM we see the Dreamspikes)

5- Taim and people joining him have sky rocketed in power

6- Dem wants an army of channelers (Dreadlords) in his army

So here is the theory:

Demandred is in some way manipulating the Seafolk!

Think about this. Why else is Andor so important to final battle? Why do the Seafolk WANT a small piece of physical land (just far enough away they can gate into without being effected by Dreamspike). Who could possibly be south of Illian? Where was Dem (and Alivia) gating off to all the time? When was the last time we saw any SF besides those in Elaynes court?

My contention is he gets the Seafolk channelers and joins them up to the Black Tower. Tada. Dark Circles. And nice and close to Black Tower (close enough that Taim no longer needs to travel when he wants something). It also fits in well with his groups plots (who we know have been tied to White Tower and Seanchan)


Bcopvf: 2010-12-28

KAV2001C I think you have presented the first idea regarding the matter that I both like and think might actually be correct.

Sir, I salute you!


Mattismyfavorite: 2010-12-29

It's not just a piece of Andor that the seafolk want though. They want a small piece of each land that Rand has...remember the deal Rand's AS made with the Seafolk? Rand's generals were not too happy with the fact that they would get a piece of land in each of Randland...but he said something to the effect "Don't worry about it, I know alittle something about this. They didn't say who gets to pick the land that is theirs. They will be subject to taxes and tariffs and such when they try to move their goods off this land. If I can live with this so can you"...I know that's not word for word but its the best that I could books are at home.


maroftis: 2011-01-02

This has been a great post and comment read. Dem has always been my favorite Forsaken to speculate on. As I read the comments I found myself agreeing with several different view points. To me it all comes back to the fact that Dem is a great general, but great generals don't automatically make great leaders. Let Moradin worry about the Chosen while Dem worries about Rand. I really like the Dem is LoC link and think that it most plausable. I finally settled on a mixture of all the view points. First I will say that Dem is Roedran Almaric do Arreloa a'Naloy, King of Murandy. People have argued that Murandy is "small potatoes" and not worth his time. The fact that it is "small potatoes" is exactly why it is perfect for his base of operations. He doesn't need to be present much to maintain control. His use of proxies will be shown to include The Prophet, Taim, Davrim, Pedron, Seandar, Shara, and well as others people have mentioned in this post. Dem has one purpose that drives him, to kill the Dragon. He has sewn chaos through the lands with proxies like the prophet and Inquisitors of the Hand while at the same time raised armies under other proxies like Taim's BT and Davrim's army. He can be the king of Murandy with out Murandy actually being an importaint army because he has others it was just a base of operations for him. It could also be a storage center for the Sea Folks mad men. Others have wondered why he would let armies of men and of AS march through his country... well as long as they didn't go near his stronghold then it would be foolish to take any action because it would make Murandy stick out in others minds. The land itself doesn't matter when I am sure all of Dem's various armies will be flooded into the Blight by gates anyway. You have all brought up great points but instead of pitting them aginst each other find how they work together.


mtspit: 2011-01-09

i dont care what anyone said about jordan denying that demandred is taim. MAZRIM TAIM IS DEMANDRED!!! there is no doubt.. period... think about what taim said to the red ajah when they arrived."LET THE LORD OF CHAOS RULE" does that sound familiar?? really are u all blind? and to anyone who is a real fan they will notice that the second dreamspike is placed at the black tower. obviously Moridin/ishy is threatened by demandred's forces. remember how he told graendal that he had TWO dreamspikes and the second he was using? as for the aiel with the pointed teeth. u ever wonder what happened to those aiel taken by the bleakness?? hows this for a theory, when rand gained control of the aiel moridin/ishy responded by summoning the aiel darkfriends that werent maidens to his fortress in the blight to marshall his forces??? blood and ashes


ChubbyAiel: 2011-01-13

"obviously Moridin/ishy is threatened by demandred's forces. remember how he told graendal that he had TWO dreamspikes and the second he was using?"

Actually it suits Taim to have the dreamspike in place because it stops the Asha'man loyal to Logain and the Aes Sedai escaping the Black Tower. Obviously that's where the dreamspike is, but if "Moridin/ishy" is using it as you say, it implies that Taim is working for him.

As for the mention of the Lord of Chaos, we don't really know much about this phrase, do we? If it is from the Dark Prophecy, Demandred wouldn't be the only one to know of it. Was it a phrase from the Age of Legends, is it something the Darkfriends and Forsaken talk about among themselves? It would be unsafe to assume Demandred is the only one who would refer to this title.


BigBadWolfbrother: 2011-01-14

I want to see the ultimate showdown in the Wolfdream/TaR between Perrin (a non-channeler) and Demandred or whomever of the Forsaken comes to keep Perrin from destroying this other dreamspike at the Black Tower...after all balfire itself is "just a weave."!!!

Bring it on! Youngbull ROCKS!


lostwarder: 2011-01-20

Ok, I'm sort of new at this, I don't cruise the fan sites too much, so not sure if this has been discussed, but something said above made me think of something from a half dozen books or so (and just to note, been reading the books since the first one was published, yes, 20 years ago - sigh, half my life. Really. Will be both happy and sad the series will be over. It does need to end, and I say that with love!).

As pointed out, one of the Forsaken said events to the South had Dem's handiwork all over it.

And someone said that perhaps Dem is in the south, perhaps the Sea Folk. That reminded me of what happened at the end of, um can't remember exactly what book, I think ACOS, when at the end people said without knowing why "A storm is coming", and they all felt the uncontrollable urge to look to the south. I even think those in the southern cities looked south.

I notice the word "storm". One of the titles for these last three books was "The Gathering Storm". And I remember that people had to look south, because that's where the "storm" would come from.

And I wonder (pulling all of this out of thin air, so be gentle with me!) but this storm that must come from the south, could this be the big unnoticed thing BS mentioned a year or so ago? Long shot, I know...

But anyways, I do like best the idea that Dem is with the Sea Folk, or the Isle of Madmen, perhaps?


ChubbyAiel: 2011-01-21

I like it, LostWarder, I like it.


lostwarder: 2011-01-23

Thanks, ChubbyAiel.

The end of ACOS ends with peole spreading the tale of how the Dragon Reborn took Illian, and it is from Illian the story spreads, though RJ writes that as word is passed from mouth to mouth it becomes distorted. However, one thing remains constant in the re-telling: for unknown reasons people who tell this tale always add, "The storm is coming", and look southward. Interestingly enough, the story originates from Illian, so we can assume those people, too, look south as well. But Illian is about as south as you can get on the map. So, to me, it further strengthens the idea that the "storm", or major battle, is coming from the south of Illian.

And now I remember something else, but can't place exactly where in the books I remember it from - maybe someone else here can help? Or tell me that I'm incorrect! ;)

The Horn of Valere is tied to Illian, isn't it? Thats why the Great Hunt is always called from that city. In fact, at the beginning of tGH, Moiraine plans to send Rand to present the Horn to the King in Illian (oddly enought NOT have him bring it to Tar Valon), if I remember correctly (and of course this doesn't happen). So is the Horn tied to Illian or not? I've read some that the Horn is to be blown at Shayol Ghul, but if this is true, again, why the tie in with Illian? As far as I know, the Horn hasn't been in Illian, yet.

We do know the Horn is to be used in a great battle.

And if an invasion is begun from the south, Illian being the southern most city, seems like a good place for it to begin. And if Dem is on the Isle of Madmen, or with the Sea Folk, massing an army, and attacks interesting note: as I understand it the Heroes called back by the Horn are not affected by the One Power. If Dem is massing men who can channel, or women from the Sea Folk, seems like the Horn is the perfect "weapon" to use against such a force.

Again, I really have no proof. Not sure if this has been discussed before. But I believe more and more that Dem is either on the Isle of Madmen or with the Sea Folk.

One last thought, looking through encyclopaedia-wot, I notice the The Karaethon Cycle, or Prophecies of the Dragon, does not mention the Horn. But Mat blew the Horn, and Mat is not the I wonder if the Horn is to be used in the Last Battle, does it have to be used againt the forces at Shayol Ghul? Heck, wasn't Dem a great general, and if hes massing a force against the Dragon, and Mat is there...

Seems to me Mat will use the Horn at Illian in a battle with Dem and his armies. Who knows, Rand might be there, too. ;)

And once again, nothing to support this. Just like the idea.


Wheel Philosoph: 2011-02-04

@ Whoever thought Bashere a Darkfriend. I believe this to be highly improbable. Rand al'Thor The Dragon Reborn can, as stated earlier, tell Darkfriends by sight (Weiramon in Tear and the man who was formerly in control of Maradon during the seige.) Bashere has appeared around Rand several times in ToM and Rand (to our knowledge) has not identified Bashere as Darkfriend. Hence the large improbability of such a twist. Murandy is likely but he could be appearing as one of Taim's Favorites in the Black Tower. I doubt he could (publically if not privately) submit himself to Taim's authority.


brother of Battles: 2011-02-09

I think Rand's "ability" to see darkfriends has been blown out of proportion. He can't just "see" darkfriends. In the case of Weiramon and the Lord of Maradon, neither could stand looking at HIM. Rand never came face to face with the man in control of Maradon IIRC. He was locked up in his Rooms while Rand was out Killing all the Shadow Spawn. The Man saw him and his wife saw him from the window and couldn't stand the sight of his glory. Same goes for Weiramon. Rand had all the Lords and Ladies line up and looked at each on of them in the eye. He did the same with the other lords he encountered. It isn't that Rand can see darkfriends, it is that they can't stand the sight of him. And with that train of thought, I think it would be plausible to assume it would depend on a Persons will. The Man and Wife in Maradon and Weiramon obviously are pretty weak willed (at least that was the attitude I got from them) so if someone had a stronger will then they could with stand the presence of Rand. I'm still convinced Bashere is a Darkfriend. It just adds up.

Also concerning the Red Vieled Aiel. I think they are the Aiel who found out they could Channel and are the ones that went to the blight. They were captured and twisted in much the same way as Lord Luc was. Luc wasn't a dark friend when he went to the blight, but got twisted and meshed while he was there. The sharpened teeth are a form of self deprication people who don't feel pain or are beyond it do to themself to install fear in others. Although, I do like the Idea of the Aiel also being the ones to become overrun with the bleakness. Also makes sence as too the sharpened teeth. They may not have the same emotions anymore so anything that makes them feel again, including pain, would be a welcome expirence. I don't see why it couldn't be a combination of the two groups.


Wheel Philosoph: 2011-02-21

In ToM prologue it was stated pretty clearly that Red and Black are Fain/Mordeth's colors. IIRC Mordeth originally appeared in Red and Black in Shadar Logoth. This leads to reinforcing the thought that the Red Veiled Aiel are Fain/Mordeth's minions.


Wheel Philosoph: 2011-02-21

The Shadow, it seems to me, no longer needs to search for an army of channelers. With Taim in the Black Tower gathering channelers whether forcibly turned to the shadow via 13x13 method or recruited Darkfriends who found they could channel.

It could very well be that THOSE channelers will be the army of channelers that the Shadow will need at TG.


lslattimer: 2011-02-22

I was just wondering if Demandred could be the "murderer" referred to in the prologue of TOM sitting on the throne in Seanchan?


brother of Battles: 2011-03-01

No LSLATTIMER, I don't think it is. I don't see Demandred as concerning himself with a nation from across the ocean. Also, there was already one forsaken manipulating the Sanchan. Why would 2 forsaken be messing around with the Sanchean when only 1 forsaken was working every other country in the WOT series?


lslattimer: 2011-03-01

Thanks BoB, great point, didn't even think about Semhirage being with the Seanchen. It drives me crazy not knowing when the hammer (in the form of Demandred) is gonna fall and where its gonna fall from. Any ideas other than Roedran of Murandy anyone?


lslattimer: 2011-03-01

Also, anyone have any ideas about the "murderer" on the throne in Seanchen? Seems like an odd thing to write into the series this late for no reason. Any thoughts would be appreciated.


Moruitelda: 2011-03-01

Where could he be? Shara, Land of Madmen, Seanchan, Murandy. That's about all I can think of. LOL


Lorcin: 2011-03-02

Moruitelda: I think so too as otherwise it would have been pointless for it to have been introduced and explained in such great detail.


Moruitelda: 2011-03-02

I'm confused, Lorcin. I listed off every remaining land, but you seem to be responding to one of the list of four. ???


Lorcin: 2011-03-04

Sorry I meant Shara


IamChosen: 2011-04-09

How about a Portal Stone world?

If Demandred has secured his rule in of a massive, unified army in a Portal Stone world, he can potentially have control of the largest army available in the entire Last Battle.


Oden: 2011-04-13

You mean that he went to worlds where there are many followers of the shadow to increase the chance of the DO breaking free here? But then he's reducing the chance there and if the Light stand fast in those other worlds the DO won't break free in any world. I do not think that Demandred would do such a thing. He would think inside the box and rally forces. Has anyone mentioned Tremalking yet? I've read all the comments before but I can't remember anyone mentioning the Sea folk islands. They have easy access to the south and with their seach for their propheciesed leader, they are spread all around the world. They have recently chosen a new Mistress of the Ships and it is not the one Min said it would be so a new one will come soon. It might be because of Demandred.


Lorcin: 2011-04-14

definatly Shara why else mention it.


kingkaiser: 2011-04-15

I just can't help thinking his whereabouts have something to do with his orders about having Rand killed. He knew Rochaid, Darshiva, Gedwyn, but not Flynn. Why seperate orders from Moridin and Taim though?

He was spying on Elayne in Caemlyn. I think whatever he is doing has got to be in Randland, and is somehow tied to the black tower.


miceli86: 2011-04-15

A lot of these theories are disregarding a key piece of information that supports the theory given here by SENBONZAKURA1. In Chapter 6 of Lord of Chaos, Threads Woven of Shadow, Sammael is visiting Graendal at Natrin's Barrow. The quote is, "Events to the south had Demandred's mark all over them. Demandred had always liked using proxies." This means that Demandred must be south of Arad Doman. The second part about using proxies is troubling for the theory though. This is before Roedran hired the Band of the Red Hand, so they couldn't be his proxies. I see that KAV2001C pointed this out already but missed which book it came from. Amadicia may have been where Demandred was in LoC, because the Children of the Light would be his proxies but it seems unlikely that anyone ruling Amador could say they had a secure rule and with the Seanchan invasion it seems all but impossible. However in going back to Murandy it seems plausible that Roedran was using other groups as proxies to try and secure his rule before finding the Band of the Red Hand.


kingkaiser: 2011-04-16

In Winters Heart Slayer meets an unfamiliar forsaken who wanted Rand and Min killed, he failed, and recalled killing two Aes Sedai in Tear. This apparently had happened in Far Madding. All South, and possibly ordered by Demandred, using a servant of the dark one to do the dirty work. Maybe "events in the South" are referring to the works of Isam/Luc or some of the grey-mans whereabouts.


mandrageron: 2011-04-19

I'm beginning to think that Demamdred is the one who is taking control of the crystal throne on the other side of the planet.

My idea is shaped around two ideas:

In the vision of the future in the waste there are scenes talking about the Raven Empire having a different focus after the death of the old empress.

There is also mention of a "killer" sitting on the throne currently.

This being said I feel that since shadow spawn cannot travel via gateways it would make strong military strategy to find troops to fling into battle who can travel via gateways. I think Demandred is going to use the power of the throne to throw armies loyal to him into the "last battle" in Rand Land from the other side of the ocean.


Mierin Sedai: 2011-05-10

I've read the theory and the comments (very good :D) and there was a name I was looking for that I thought could be connected to Demandred, but isn't.

How about Jarid Sarand and his army?

I don't remember ever seeing him in the books. He's the High Seat of House Sarand but we see more of Elenia, his wife.

Nobody knows where he is and Elayne is concerned about the number of men he has. I think Demandred is somehow connected to this.


Kamaul: 2011-06-18

Has anyone considered that he's hiding out with the Aiel? In power, Aiel are about equal to the Seanchan. As far as we know, the only times the Forsaken have manipulated them was so that they could avoid Rand (unsuccessful). It seems that they are ignoring the Aiel. Does no one else see the problem with that? He could be hiding out as one of the clan chiefs, which were never really known, or as someone else. Ji'eh'toh makes it impossible (for us) to find out who, other than the Wise Ones, have control. Perhaps he's hiding out as a blacksmith...

Anyway, we know some Aiel are acting under orders from someone besides Rand. An Aiel had harmed an Aes Sedai in Lord of Chaos, which led to the Aes Sedai accepting two more, which led to their number becoming thirteen, which led to Rand running off to Carhien, which led to the Aes Sedai of Tar Valon capturing him.


Oden: 2011-06-20

I've lent my LoC to a friend so I can't read it right now but, IIRC, weren't those aiel some of Fain's whitecloaks in disguise?


Senbonzakura1: 2011-06-21

After reading ToM, I add this speculation to my theory. Now that Trolloc armies have used the Ways to invade an unsuspecting Caemlyn, Roedran, being Demandred, need only join his forces to said armies and command a large host sandwiching the forces near the Blightborder. Thus, Demandred, the general that he is, effectively puts the Dragon's forces in a two front war.


Oden: 2011-06-22

@Senbonzakura1, 77: That is a really good way to still be seen as a man of the light while hoarding trollocs in the open, if he becomes the leader of an army chasing the trollocs and the trollocs run north (by his command). The Andormen might see it as a great victory, with a huge amount of trollocs fleeing and all, and joins Demandreds team against the light (without knowing it).


kielbasaj: 2011-07-05

I've been doing a re-read of WoT and I noticed that Padan Fain originally comes from Lugard, Murandy.

We know that Padan went to Shayol Ghul to recieve a power boost and we know that he hated the Shadow afterwards for what it did to him, leading me to believe he wouldn't willingly go in the first place.

I'm mentioning this because I think it supports Demandred's presence in Murandy, if the DO wanted Fain to go to Shayol Ghul and especially against his wishes, the DO would use Demandred to bring him there, via Traveling, for speed. Pretty weak but food for thought.


Ashaman Leyrann Gaidin: 2011-07-14

@Kielbasaj: Not possible. Padan Fain was called to SG three years before TEotW. The Forsaken were freed end TEotW/begin TGH.

But I do think Demandred is King Roedran. Just by ruling out all other possibilities. You can comment on it at Wheel of Time Wikia (I made some space for it on my user page) and on Dragonmount, under the thread "Demandred. Finally known who he is". And I also posted the theory here, half a week ago. I hope it will be published soon.


wolfhammer62: 2011-07-15

i was thinking the same with ishy twisting up the seachan prophecies. i could have swore he admitted it in one of the middle books. would anyone check on this. i dont have my books. but dems has to be using proxies in murandy and seafolk nation. it makes the most sense with caemlyn and one book to go.


Ashaman Leyrann Gaidin: 2011-07-16

@Wolfhammer62: I'm pretty sure about Ishy twisting the Seanchan prophecies, but I can't remember he admitted it. Not as Ishy and not as Moridin. I think it was is the BWB, or that RJ said it once. Also because I DO remember a quote of RJ that both versions changed something.


wolfhammer62: 2011-07-16

thanks. I've been surfing all the wot sites for awhile maybe i got it mixed up. i'm just wondering when those seachen prophecies will come up if at all. Because IF DEM is in seachen, that would be sick having him on the crystal throne. though the madmen seafolk angle would be one heck of a blow to.


Ashaman Leyrann Gaidin: 2011-07-18

We can all know who Demandred is. And this theory is right, but it doesn't need to be this long. I use "my rule is secure". Demandred CANNOT have appeared in any book, except maybe TGS (BS ruled all the others out. Also ToM). So we're going to have a look at all countries and their leaders.

Borderlands - Ethinelle, Tenobia, Easar, Paitar.
Andor, Cairhien - Elayne.
Illian, Tear (Arad Doman) - Rand.
Altara, Amadicia, Tarabon - Fortuona.
Gheldean, Arad Doman - No one. Well, maybe Rand has AD.
Murandy - King Roedran.

So these are the people with power. Except for King Roedran, they all appeared one or more times. O, and we have the WC's, as in the theory, but we've had too much Galad PoV's in ToM, so we know he can't be a DF.

And, we also know Dem is mentioned BEFORE CoT, because RJ said in 2001 (between the release of WH and CoT) that we could be able to figure out who Dem was.


Lorcin: 2011-07-19

It can't be the Seanchan as his rule would not be secure as it is currently being contested.


Senbonzakura1: 2011-07-19

Your explanation is oversimplified, Leyrann. You don't take into account that Demandred could be using proxies in the Borderlands that haven't appeared necessarily. However, our theory speculates that the borderlands are unlikely for various reasons. The theory is long because it needs to be; evidence is necessary, whether speculative or not.


Ashaman Leyrann Gaidin: 2011-07-20

Do you know anyone in the borderlands who is mentioned in the first nine books, but did never appear? If so, yes, then you are right. Otherwise, it isn't necessary.


wolfhammer62: 2011-07-20

saldea' monarchy has been mentioned in regards with faile. that at least makes it possible.


kav2001c: 2011-07-24

I am 99% sure RJ said we had not actually seen Dem in any book in an interview (this does not rule out using certain kings as proxies etc) & he seems to flipflop on being able to figure out where he is (beyond lucky guessing of course)

I also like my Sea Folk idea still as they are the one main channeling group that was left alone; all the other Forsaken jumped at the chance to get channelers.

I am still against Murandy as stated above; army too small, far too few channelers

Ah one book to go so we shall see


Jozzers: 2011-07-25

I'm still not really sure who Demandred is, but I could he be controlling an army of male Aiel channelers?

At some point we are told that Aiel male channelers run into the blight believing they must kill the DO (or something like that). So it would make sense that we see Aiel coming out of the blight at the end of ToM.

I know this doesn't really help with who Demandred actually is but I thought it seemed likely.


Ashaman Leyrann Gaidin: 2011-07-28

@Kav2001c: I don't know what RJ said about appearing, but this is what BS said:

Sanderson said that we had seen Mesaana's alter-ego on screen as of Knife of Dreams, but that we had not seen Demandred's alter-ego on screen as of Knife of Dreams.

And this:

Q: Was Demandred or his proxy in Towers of Midnight?
A: No he was not; he will be in A Memory of Light.

So this means Demandred did either not appear, or only in TGS. And I have another quote, about if he is mentioned:

Ruhira Sedai: We know who almost all the Forsaken are, except maybe Mesaana and Demandred. Should we be able to work out who they are?

RJ: Ummm.. Yeah.

This is from a book tour in 2001, so this means Demandred has to be mentioned in the first nine books, otherwise we wouldn't be able to figure out who he was.


Kamaul: 2011-07-28

Male channelers aren't the only Aiel who go to the Blight to slay the Dark One. It is said that all die, channeling or not, before they ever reach the Blasted Lands. Anyway, how would the Blight keep them from growing old and dying naturally?


NKD: 2011-11-07

Demandred i respect. he is gonna bring quality action in the last book. That is reason enuf for me to shrug of the Murandy Theory. Too less, too not Demandredish.My theories on his army are from two points . 1. Somewhere in Fires of heaven( if im not wrong) i remember Graeldal saying events down south has Demandred written all over it. 2. Demandred says his rule is secure.Which means he is ruling some place. ----- Taking both of these into account i feel Demandred's army can be one of the following:

1.The chaneleers frm the Land of Madmen far down south of Rand Land

2. The chanellers and army of Shara

3.The evil Aeil with spiked teeth are from a mirror world, coming through portal stones. Brought by Demandred. Demandred story has always been almost. He almost became Dragon. Maybe in some parallel world through the portal stones he kills Rand and takes over the Aeil in the name of Dragon and brings them back down to Rand Land.


wantfear: 2011-11-17

I like how you tried to use quotes for evidence instead of making your own facts up which sometimes happens on here . . . but the land of madmen isnt going to have any inclusion in the series so it cant be there. Also, lets say that i humor your first justification for your other locations " that events in the south have his markings on them" then that would eliminate the possibility of both being in a mirror world or in shara, since its east. . . Moreover, how would they communicate across mirror worlds? it would be like communicating from parallel universes . . .of course the DO and creator are constant in these worlds so he could talk to the DO but i digress. Hes in murandy man i put 20 on it


eht slat meit: 2011-11-17

Question - Why does Demandred -have to be- anywhere in particular? He's a general second only to LTT; he's going to be building armies for the last battle, not worrying about ruling kingdoms minor, major, or otherwise. He has something to prove against LTT or LTT's successor and he'll be using his proxies to do it. Creating bases a land you have no interest in ruling and/or are too consumed by hate to pay any attention to is an unnecessary expenditure of time.

That seems the most likely explanation to me of his exceptional amount of off-screen time. He's got more important things to be doing than politicking against other Chosen or fiddling around with inconsequential peons before His Time Comes.


tsorovanmhael: 2012-01-02

Demandred's secure power is the Land of the Madmen with connection to the Black Tower. Taim has a way of finding many Asha'men that become loyal to him and are just as power hungry as any Darkfriend. Though the Pattern pulls to Rand as Ta'veren, we know there is an abundance of male channelers in the LotMM due to the Sea Folk dropping them off have no clue as to what's going on there, kinda like Australia when the British dumped off their criminals.

Now, since everyone seems to think that the men in LotMM are all crazy, is overlooking the fact that if they switch to the Shadow, they won't be crazy anymore. The DO will protect them from the taint, thus allowing Demandred to have a host of happy followers that now know they can get revenge on the aholes that dumped them there and a shot at expanding and ruling the world. Rand also makes a reference that there were large amounts of channelers at the battle for the fortress of Maradon. Unless the Black Tower got directly involved in that battle, those male channelers had to come from somewhere else and a massive army, attacking the Borderlands, cohesivly against a Great Captain....seems just like little Demy. Plus, he needs to get his feet wet with a battle to help coordinate and run the LB.

As for Demy showing up and eavesdropping and such, it dosen't matter where his foothold is, the bloody bastard can Travel anywhere he wants, he's a bloody Forsaken! If all the Chosen only played in their own backyards, RJ is a very shortsighted writer. Come on, that's a lazy excuse for Demy being in Randland. Semy, Granny, Ishy/Moridin and so forth are jumping all over to get clues and put their hands in the others cookie jar. Demy dosen't have to physically be confined to one place.

To sum up, LotMM is Demy's hold, huge army of Dreadlords and they just had a cameo in ToM. Done


Macster: 2012-01-08

Personally, I don't see why all the theories can't be right...the people who have said that Demandred could be everywhere behind the scenes, running various fronts for the Shadow, and having numerous proxies, make the most sense to me.

As to the specific points of this theory, and others raised in the comments, I would point back to what's been mentioned already--so many are convinced Demandred could never be Roedran or in Murandy because it's so weak/unimportant, just as many think he wouldn't bother himself with Masema. But that's just it, because these are the last places you'd look for him, that's exactly why he's there--no one would ever suspect him. The fact he is doing numerous things (the Whitecloaks, the Black Tower, Shara, possibly Seanchan or the Land of Madmen) just makes it even better, since he wouldn't have to be staying with the Prophet or in Murandy, but simply popping in and out, maybe having a base of power or two where he lies low plotting. The fact a base in Murandy puts him close to Ghealdan, Amadicia, Caemlyn and the Black Tower, and even Illian if an army does invade from the south there, makes it even better.

Whatever else he is doing though, I think Murandy staying unaligned, uniting for the first time in years, under a king who has now supposedly become a great general due to a book he's read, all screams Demandred to me. As long as he has other places he's been causing chaos (and it seems clear he does), I don't see why Murandy couldn't be his central base, or at least one of many.


ivanbrow10: 2012-01-17

At this stage, so close to the LB, it doesn't feel right that Demandred is sitting looking after a country. I agree he could easily be travelling around various places organising forces.

Seanchan I think has been disproved above. The land of the Madmen... It feels FAR too uncontrollable. Why would they just fight for the Shadow and not do a LTT and just blow the crap out of everything around them - Trolloc, Chosen or Dragon? That's a massive roll of the dice - not the move of such a skilled tactician... Moving Trollocs through Portal Stones - awesome idea. Thousands if not millions of Trollocs could be accessed through alternative realities. Or converted Aiel (like at end of ToM?)...

Could Demandred be in charge of the Male Channellers who busted open Maradon? It feels like he's been unhindered from the day he came out of the Blight... Whatever he's been doing it'll be big. I don't know what it could be - but it feels like it could be mindblowing.

This is complete and utter guesswork - but what if there's something about Murandy that we don't know. Thousands of stasis cells? Filled with Gholams? Another waygate that's been carefully hidden but is also got an army of Trollocs waiting to be unleashed. The DO does want a multiple front war after all... He doesn't just want to be driving out of the Blight...

I dunno. But I'm excited. Matt versus Demandred.


maleshub: 2012-01-22

We know that Taim is not Demandred; but could it be that Taim is serving Demandred?


Chanterlad: 2012-01-24

While re-reading LOC, I came across this in Chapter 7: A Matter of Thought. During one of the visits to Elaida's study when Nynaeve and Elaine are teaching the Salidar Hall to use T'A'R, Myrelle reads one of the letters. "'She says that Mattin Stepaneos accepts wholeheartedly, Roedran is still trying to take every side, while Alliendre and Tylin want more time to consider their answers.'" If Taim is Roedran, this is a classic way to "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule." HE's manipulating the rulers of Ghealdan, Ebou Dar, and Illian, and playing them against each other while stalling any sort of unification of nations. That's exactly the thing rand's fighting against, and would sow chaos quite well. It could also be seen as using proxies, as he's using them to cause discord (?). From what I've seen of RJ's style, these sorts of little clues are quite important, such as had to be used when discovering who killed Asmodean, so it seems more likely that Demandred has a good shot of being Roedran, no mater what else he;s doing anywhere else.


Waxer: 2012-01-25

Only six Gholams were made, somewhere it is in the books.


iopoi: 2012-08-21

I had a thought that it might be Darlin in Tear, because he becomes king and Rand tells him to gather an army which Demandred said he has done. I think Darlin (Demandred) will betray Rand in AMoL.


kivo: 2012-08-22

@IOPOI Darlin was in The Dragon Reborn. He fought Mat in the halls of the Stone. So he is ruled out as Demandred anyway. I also suspect Rand has earned Darlin's respect in spite of his initial resistance and that Darlin will be one of the leaders most loyal to Rand.


wjones40: 2012-08-27

I thought Demandred was in Sanchean. He was working with Semirhage. Semi knew of the plan to wipe out the Imperial family and obviously wasn't the one to carry it out. Someone else, most likely Demandred is the murderer now ruling Seanchean.


Cabadrin: 2012-08-29

After her first meeting with Sammael following the death of Rahvin (LoC ch 6), Graendal muses about the effort she has put into drawing his attention to Shara. Apparently, whatever is going on in Shara is dangerous to be known to know about. Demandred may be doing a bit of this, a bit of that, but Shara must be special for Graendal to step this warily.


Nocterequiem: 2012-08-31

My vote is Shara as well. That, or he took Ishy's place commanding the forces of the Shadow. All other important states are taken. I don't think someone of Demandred's level of Power, generalship, and hatred for LTT would be satisfied with something like Murandy.


MarieAnz: 2012-09-02

Based on the excerpt from AMoL posted tonight... I am going to say that I am more sure of my theory (written after reading TOM) that Demandred sacked Seanchan. I think that he is Lord Galgan. Need to go back and reread... because I never paid much attention to Galgan's character before. His army is "secure" because he is heading up half the Seanchan army. His rule is secure because he threw Seanchan into civil war, he is the "murderer sitting on the Crystal Throne," and there is no-one left to oppose him.


Macster: 2012-09-12

@MarieAnz: Sorry, but Sanderson confirmed that Demandred's alter ego did not appear in Towers of Midnight, and Galgan did (Chapter 47, "A Teaching Chamber").

That doesn't mean, though, that Demandred couldn't still be the murderer in Seandar--Semirhage was the one who killed the Empress and her family, but since she and Demandred were allied...


Ashaman49: 2012-11-24

Hi all,

I'm new to this site, and though I read much of what was said before, forgive me for repeating anything.

I'm personally still up in the air about who/where Demandred is, but one thing I'd like to point out is that his quote in ToM is "...and my armIES march for war." While the plural there could just be rhetorical, it's still possible he is actually referring to multiple armies in multiple places. Given his absence from Forsaken internal politics, he could very well have the time and focus to pull this off. I think the most likely options are Shara and/or the Sea Folk. While RJ said there would likely be no action IN Shara, he didn't rule out Sharans entering the West.

**Warning: Spoiler from officially released excerpts of MoL on**

1 - Chapter 1 mentions that Roedran has agreed to come to Merrillor with Elayne's help in Traveling. Even if this is a deception, it seems a stretch for Demandred to have to get Elayne's help. That's the big reason I no longer think Roedran is Demandred (but could be a proxy?).

2 - The released Prologue segment mentions that Jarid Sandar was being controlled by "someone". This could easily be Demandred.

3 - Rand is convinced Demandred is responsible for the Trolloc attack on Caemlyn via Waygate. The question is - where did the army enter the Waygate? This also applies to the attack on the Two Rivers way back when. Since the male Aes Sedai created the Waygates and the Ogier maintain the method for growing them, the Trollocs would have had to first reach a location where they could reach an open Waygate. Randland Waygates are unlikely for this purpose because an army moving out of the Blight would have to pass the Borderlands. Malkier is a possibility, but there has never been a mention of a Waygate there. The other possibilities (as I see them) are: a) A Waygate in Shara (a stretch) b) A Waygate accessible to Sharan ships c) A Waygate accessible to Sea Folk. There's never any indication of how extensive the Waygate system is (limited to Randland or worldwide).


Kamaul: 2012-11-28

Hello Ashaman49, this is my friendly greeting to you before beginning to attack your theory. So, welcome!

"While the plural there could just be rhetorical, it's still possible he is actually referring to multiple armies in multiple places."

As you probably know, one single nation might have several armies. For example, Andor has several armies mentioned, most of them camped around Caemlyn or on the Fields of Merrilor. For instance, the Band of the Red Hand counts as an Andoran army. So does the White Lions, which was led by Ravhin when he was still alive. The Queen's Guards is the core Andoran army, but not the only one.

Of course that doesn't exclude the possibility of controlling more than one nation. And I agree with you that he does have enough time and focus to pull it off.

"I think the most likely options are Shara and/or the Sea Folk. While RJ said there would likely be no action IN Shara, he didn't rule out Sharans entering the West."

If Demandred controlled Shara, would he allow Graendal to steal the monarch of Shara which she did? Also, all of our reports seem to show that Shara was in chaos as early as the Fires of Heaven, which was most likely before Graendal stole the Sh'boan and Sh'botay, over whether Rand was the Dragon or not. Would Demandred have allowed the chaos to spread across Shara when he is trying to build an army. Chaos is an impediment to building an army.

"Since the male Aes Sedai created the Waygates and the Ogier maintain the method for growing them, the Trollocs would have had to first reach a location where they could reach an open Waygate. Randland Waygates are unlikely for this purpose because an army moving out of the Blight would have to pass the Borderlands."

I do hope you know that there are several Waygates in the Blight. Several stedding have fallen to the Blight.


Dragon Tamer: 2012-12-11

One thing that I found to be interesting was that when we first see Demandred, RJ makes sure to let us know he is wearing fur lined clothing, during the summer in Randland. This would lead me to believe he has to be somewhere cold. At the same time, Sammael mentions that the troubles in the south have his markings all over them. So, maybe he does have armies plural in multiple areas. But I think the most important piece is his fur lined clothing when he first appears.


Nocterequiem: 2012-12-31

@Dragon Tamer: Summer in Randland = winter in Seandar. Fur coat = winter weather = Seandar. He was almost assuredly helping Semirhage in Seandar at that time.

I still think there is more to the Demandred/Taim thing. There are just too many similarities, it just bothers me that he "can't be" because RJ said he wasn't. If he isn't Taim, Taim is definitely one of his proxies/underlings, there can be no doubt about that.