he Nature of the Finns
by Ozymandias: 2006-03-29 | 4 out of 10 (12 votes)
We have always known there is something fishy about the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn. They have an uncanny ability to either read, or even influence, individual threads of the Pattern. We know very little about them, except for the few references from Birgitte and Moiraine, and Mat’s experiences. One of the more interesting and provocative comments made about the Finns comes from Birgitte.
TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 28 – To the Tower of Ghenjei
“They are not evil the way the Shadow is evil, yet they are so different from humankind they might as well be. They are not to be trusted, archerâ€
“They are not evil the way the Shadow is evil.â€
To me, this implies that the Finns are not evil at all. They are merely indifferent to humanity, and to morality. Since the Shadow is evil incarnate, according to RJ, the Finns cannot be evil, since they are different then the Shadow. The Finns just exist on a different plane from humanity. They care about their own desires, their own pleasure; not about good or evil, or issues concerning humanity. While this would, on the surface, mean that the Finns are totally separated from Randland, both physically and philosophically, that also cannot be true.
TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 6 – Doorways
“The Aes Sedai winced and threw up her hands. “You three rush in blindly where Lan and a hundred Warders would tread warily. Why do you think I have not stepped through? Days ago I could have asked what Rand must do to survive and triumph, how he can defeat the Forsaken and the Dark One, how he can learn to control the Power and hold off madness long enough to do what he must.†She waited, hands on hips, while it sank in. None of them spoke. “There are rules,†she went on, “and dangers. No one may step through more than once. Only once. You may ask three questions, but you must ask all three and hear the answers before you may leave. Frivolous questions are punished, it seems, but it also seems what may be serious for one can be frivolous coming from another. Most importantly, questions touching the Shadow have dire consequences. “If you asked about the Black Ajah, you might be returned dead, or come out a gibbering madwoman, if you came out at all. As for Rand . . . I am not certain it is possible to ask a question about the Dragon Reborn that does not touch the Shadow in some way. You see? Sometimes there are reasons for caution.â€
Obviously, there is some sort of connection between the Aelfinn and Eelfinn and the Dark One that prohibits the asking of questions which could touch on the struggle between good and evil. I happen to believe that a Friend of the Dark passing through the doorway would be restrained the same way, if in an opposite manner. Therefore, what needs to be defined is what the relationship between the Dark One, the Finns, and Randland
It’s quite evident that the Finns exist in a separate reality from the other characters of WoT (excepting the Dark One, who isn’t in the Pattern at all). The very physics of their world function on a totally different plane than that of Randland.
TITLE: The Shadow Rising CHAPTER: 15 – Into the Doorway
“Through one circular window he saw three tall silvery spires, curving in toward each other so their points all aimed at the same spot. They were not visible from the next window, three paces away, but a few minutes later, after he and his guide had rounded enough curves that he had to be looking in another direction, he saw them again. He tried telling himself these were three different spires, but between them and him was one of those fan-shaped trees with a dangling broken branch, a tree that had been in the same spot the first time. After his third sight of the spires and the strange tree with the broken branch, this time ten paces farther on but on the other side of the hallway, he tried to stop looking at what lay outside at all.â€
So it is quite obvious that the Finns exist outside of the normal WoT spectrum of reality. Moiraine states that the world in which the Finns live is somehow folded, and that this permits them to read the thread of a man’s life.
TITLE: The Shadow Rising CHAPTER: 15 – Into the Doorway
“The answers are true,†Moiraine said slowly, “so long as they are in regard to your own future. That much is certain.†She watched Rand, and himself, weighing the effect of her words. “As to how, though, there is only speculation. That world is . . . folded . . . in strange ways. I cannot be clearer. It may be that that allows them to read the thread of a human life, read the various ways it may yet be woven into the Pattern. Or perhaps it is a talent of the people.â€
So the Finns have some sort of infallible way of reading the Pattern. Or at least, reading individual threads of the Pattern. However, the Finns do not all have this ability. Only a select few from Finnland can do this. For example, the guards that escort Mat through Finnland do not have this ability, or there would be no need for them to escort them to someone else. So now we have a slightly broader interpretation of Finnland; one in which there is a definite society with defined roles (though we’ve only seen two; Guide and Answerer). What does all this unconnected info tell us? Nothing, except that the Finns exist and function within a totally different world from Randland, though one in which there is a definite connection.
There are three known conduits to Finnland (I will, for simplicities sake, group the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn together): two redstone doorways (though in truth they lead different places, as shown by the marking on each one), and the Tower of Ghenjei. Now, the Tower of Ghenjei seems to provide evidence as to the effect that the Finns DO exist in the same world, since you can access them both through the one passage. That, however, is extraneous.
So the Finns live in another world, one in which the very physics and laws of the universe have been changed. Also, it is one in which there is a totally different species of beings, who have had interactions with humans, and who most assuredly have adapted themselves to human culture rather than the other way around (as explained by their knowledge of the Old Tongue, and their deciding to have interpreters, rather than letting their visitors learn their language). I believe Jordan has already affirmed that the Finns live in a Parallel World; one which (most likely) cannot be reached by a Portal Stone, or, at the very least, has a more reliable access point (the doorways/Tower) than a Portal Stone.
The Finns also have an ability analogous to one other character we have seen in WoT; Min. In fact, it’s almost identical. One could say that the Finns have the same ability, just developed to the point where the Finns can interpret and see everything about a person, rather than the random, incomprehensible flashes Min sees. As Moiraine says, Min can see portions of the Pattern.
TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 15 - Strangers and Friends
"She says I see pieces of the Pattern." Min gave a little laugh and shook her head. "Sounds too grand, to me. I just see things when I look at people, and sometimes I know what they mean. I look at a man and a woman who've never even talked to one another, and I know they'll marry. And they do. That sort of thing. She wanted me to look at you. All of you together."
So since we know Min is actually reading bits of the Pattern, then we certainly know that the Finns are also reading bits of the Pattern, but due to their developed ability, are actually read the WHOLE of the Pattern, and therefore what the Pattern will become. Is it therefore outside the realm of possibility that this ability of Min’s is somehow transplanted from the Finns’ Mirror World? I don’t suggest or even endorse that theory, but it is something to think about. More importantly, we know that the Finns can read the Pattern. Which leads into the secondary, and even more unheard of, ability of theirs.
The Finns also clearly have some ability to influence the Pattern, since they can grant “wishes†and influence the way the Pattern turns out. This is totally unrivaled in the WoT universe, even with the Creator, who we have no indication of being able to alter what he made. So how, and why? I believe the Finns somehow exist outside the Pattern, as possibly custodians of the Pattern. The evidence points to it. The Finns are, by all accounts, immortal. We have evidence that the “Answerer’s†have been the same people for basically as long as recorded history, and no reason to believe they weren’t there in the Age of Legends. This makes sense, since they exist outside the Pattern and therefore are not subject to the same aging effects as people within the Pattern. They are like the Fates; they are timeless, they can read the future and even change it (mainly by ending a life). While they cannot do something half so drastic as killing people, they do have the ability to alter what goes on in the Pattern, making minor corrections and changes. If one was to be truly philosophical, since everything within the Pattern is fated, the Finns could be considered the Pattern’s way of introducing new qualities into itself without violating the laws it operates within. Mat was MEANT to have his medallion, but the Pattern could not introduce said medallion to him while operating within the Pattern of the Age it set out, so it arranged for him to go to Finnland and there obtain the necessary things he needed further on in the Pattern. I said that badly, but hopefully the point got across.
In any case, that’s not the point either. What is important is that the Finns exist outside the Pattern. They can change the Pattern, which is nearly impossible. The Dark One can exert a general influence on the Pattern, but cannot change it. Ta’veren can affect the Pattern in general ways, much like the DO (but not consciously), but cannot make point changes like the Finns can. They are custodians, capable of tweaking things and overseeing the overall design of the Pattern. I got way off track here, but there WAS a point to this theory, I just forgot what it was by the end.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2006-06-06
Well, since the Finns are one of my top five favorite topics, and we haven't discussed them in a while, let's do so. First off, Jordan did say the Finns reside in a Parallel World. However, my friend, at the same conference, I asked him to clarify, since Mirror Worlds are referred to as Parallel Worlds. At Dragon Con, he stated that Parallel Worlds and Mirror Worlds were different. Also, he told us that the Finns have souls. Parallel Worlds are in the Pattern, and the Finns have souls which means they are woven into the fabric of the Pattern, so that means they are of the Pattern, not outside of it. I haven't seen evidence, especially considering Min's talent, and other prophetic abilities that humans have, to suggest that the Finns have any more control over the Pattern, than a Ta'veren. As you yourself said, only a few Finns have the ability or Talent to read the Pattern and the thread's influence in the Pattern, so I see no reason to believe that they are anything such as custodians. In fact, we are told they are not to be trusted, and it is already of evidence that if you do not ask for leavetaking, you are held, and potentially killed, skinned, and made into clothing...not exactly what I would refer to as a "custodian". In essence, there are likely many other creatures on many other parallel worlds, that have souls, and make up a part of the Pattern. Humans found the Finns and recognized their potential benefit and created doorways to their realm. The Finns do not affect the Pattern, until a Human crosses over to their realm.
2
Dragonrider: 2006-06-06
What I want to know is how the Finns fit into the game of Snakes and Foxes. Repeatedly the Eellfinn have been characterized as snaky, and the Aallfinn as foxy. Or is it the other way 'round? Whatever
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wolfbrother10: 2006-06-06
Nice breakdown.
Something that always stood out to me is the amount of Finns in both doorways. It seems that the efforts be it answers or gifts are the effects of the collective. As you mentioned not all Finn's have the Talents necessary to read the pattern or give the gifts asked for but there are always more then one present even though there is an obvious leader.
My idea is that there are all like Min and can see and interpret aspects of a person, but each sees and knows the meaning of certain things to then come up with one infallible truth.
Something that could be compatible with the ability of the Finns to read the pattern would be to have a group with Min and possibly even wolfbrothers to combine their efforts at the reading of the pattern to come up with a conclusion.
The Wise Ones have shown us how accurate they can be by describing to some detail the party that was to arrive at Rhuidean. Also it seems that reading the pattern for dreamers and Min seems to be indifferent aswell could it be that the pattern itself is indifferent. I remember reading that the age lace always seems beautiful from afar but when you see it close up it is full of complexities. If something was made for good there shouldn't be so much back and forth among good and evil. (Just an aside)
4
Callandor: 2006-06-06
**Obviously, there is some sort of connection between the Aelfinn and Eelfinn and the Dark One that prohibits the asking of questions which could touch on the struggle between good and evil.**
Then Rand got spectacularly lucky that his questions were answered by Aelfinn who were blind to this necessity.
**The Finns also have an ability analogous to one other character we have seen in WoT; Min. In fact, it’s almost identical. One could say that the Finns have the same ability, just developed to the point where the Finns can interpret and see everything about a person, rather than the random, incomprehensible flashes Min sees.**
They're similar the way Min's viewings are similar to Foretellings: they tell the future and are never wrong. That's it. They're not the same, as per Jordan:
**Week 1 Question: Are the Eelfinn limited in their power to grant wishes? To what degree can they affect the outside world? Also, is there any relation between what the Aelfinn do and Min's ability?
Robert Jordan Answers: Oh, yes, there definitely are limits to the powers of the Eelfin. For one thing, they cannot affect the outside world at all. If you said that you wanted to be King of the World, you might well find that what you received was not what you expected. For example, they might put you out of their world into a world with no other sentient life, where you would be king by default. Then again, you might find yourself with the necessary skills to make yourself King of the World, if you were able. Actually achieving it would be up to you. But then, many of their "gifts" are skewed in this way. You must be very careful is you're asking if you want to receive what you are hoping for. And yet, remember that Mat actually did receive very much what he asked for. Just not in the way that he wanted.
No, there is no connection between what the Aelfinn do and what Min does.**
**Is it therefore outside the realm of possibility that this ability of Min’s is somehow transplanted from the Finns’ Mirror World?**
Since Jordan said they're not the same, I'd say the answer is yes.
**So how, and why? I believe the Finns somehow exist outside the Pattern, as possibly custodians of the Pattern. The evidence points to it.**
No, it doesn't. The Finn are apart of the Pattern; hence why Rand and co. can go to their world. They're just a different world. ONLY the Dark One and the Creator are outside the Pattern.
**The Finns are, by all accounts, immortal. We have evidence that the “Answerer’s†have been the same people for basically as long as recorded history, and no reason to believe they weren’t there in the Age of Legends.**
Care to give that evidence?
**This makes sense, since they exist outside the Pattern and therefore are not subject to the same aging effects as people within the Pattern.**
Well, as I said before, they still are within the Pattern. And even if they weren't, they'd still be subject to the Wheel, which would make them bound by time.
**Mat was MEANT to have his medallion, but the Pattern could not introduce said medallion to him while operating within the Pattern of the Age it set out, so it arranged for him to go to Finnland and there obtain the necessary things he needed further on in the Pattern.**
Again, since the Finn are inside the Pattern, the sway of the Wheel/Pattern's plan still holds and makes this pretty moot.
5
zanguini: 2006-06-09
This is my first time so I will be as brief as possible. If you read the glossary at the end of KoD under the entry of "Snakes and Foxes" It reads that the game is started by "Courage to strengthen , fire to blind, music to dazzle, iron to bind." If you take this with Moirannes letter to Thom "Remeber what you know ofthe game of Snakes and Foxes. Remember, and heed." There are several instances of the "agreement" between the finns and earlyer people that states no iron, fire, or musical instruments are allowed where the finns are. Since the game of Snakes and Foxes can not be won with out cheating it is my belief that in order to rescue Moirane, Thom, Mat, and other (whether that be Olver or Charin) will have to break the "rules for the snakes and foxes". Thanks
6
Traveller: 2006-06-11
One thing that really gets me about the 'finns, is that they get their kicks out of answering the questions/granting wishes, but Moiraine says that they deal with people who ask frivolous questions harshly. You would think that they don't really care what questions people ask as long as they don't bring iron, musical instruments etc, and the finns can rifle through their memories. This suggests to me that it is not their preference to not be nice to people that asf frivolous questions, but it is also part of the rules that they have no control over, like not asking questions about the Dark. Anyway, I don't really see what point this accomplishes for them, unless they just enjoy getting the opportunity to kick some human *ss
7
Ozymandias: 2006-06-12
Callandor, its late and I'm a little rusty after a several month absence from the site, so I'm only gonna adress one point. It doesn't matter what RJ says. Clearly, the Finns (one of them, I always forget which) has an ability analagous to that of Min's; the ability to tell future events. Whether RJ says there is a connection or not is moot... clearly there is. I just don't see a way around that. Anyways... I'll get back to the rest later
8
Wonderer: 2006-06-14
The Aelfinn and Eelfinn seem at their core a literary nod to fae folk. Immortal(?) and powerful but so far removed from humanity they are mortally dangerous. Classically, iron was a major weakness to such beings while fire they considered too primitive. Beautiful music could often distract them and standing up to them often impressed them. Of course, those are only loose comparisons to other fantasy works and old mythologies.
Their power may stem from a time compressed world. Past, present, and future aspects of the Pattern would all be much closer together in such a world allowing some of them to see each much more clearly. However, the presence of a ta’veren in such a world would threaten it’s physical stability since they have so much influence on the Pattern and the Pattern is so much a part of the ‘finns’ domain.
What I would like to know is who made these doorway ter’angreal, and more importantly, how they forced these creatures into an agreement. I would suppose the tower in the dream world predates the doorways and probably leads to their world, rather than a predictable reception room.
Even if they can see individual threads in the Pattern, they can probably not see every trivial little detail so frivolous questions would serve only to remind them of their limitations. As far as not answering questions pertaining to the Shadow (keep in mind this is 100% speculation) it could be they made a deal with the Dark One to limit his presence in their world and in return they won’t use their skills to oppose him directly.
Anyway, with any luck all will be revealed regarding the Aelfinn and Eelfinn as well as some detatils regarding the Snakes & Foxes game. BTW: Your perceived correlation between Min's abilities and the 'finns' is very interesting and though unrelated may operate similarly.
9
wolfbrother10: 2006-06-15
A question for those more experienced with the Finn's that has tickled my mind. Why has the game of snakes 'n foxes been limited to child play?
Could the game be used to make people forget about the finns but at the same time give out the weakness of them?
The reason I say forget the finns is because since it is a childs game most would dismiss it as a fairytale such as some believed trollocs were. And we all know that in the game the weaknesses of the finns are revealed: iron to bind...
Just thinking...
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JakOShadows: 2006-06-15
wolfbrother10:
It could be that it was just believed to be a legend and that they used the rules from the legend to make the game. I find it hard to believe that someone made the game to carry on the secret for those who would need it. They could write a book and hide it some place or if they were AS make it part of their secret knowledge. But if its a kids game, it seems like it was based of a story and they just borrowed the theme. Like the snake and foxes always win, and the rules about iron, music and fire, they seem to have just taken the basic concepts. If the intention was to purposely leave clues, its likely they would have left more to go on.
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Callandor: 2006-06-15
**Callandor, its late and I'm a little rusty after a several month absence from the site, so I'm only gonna adress one point. It doesn't matter what RJ says. Clearly, the Finns (one of them, I always forget which) has an ability analagous to that of Min's; the ability to tell future events. Whether RJ says there is a connection or not is moot... clearly there is. I just don't see a way around that.**
Uh, no. Jordan says there is no connection. They're not the same; Jordan makes it seem as if they're not even analogus as you wish. See this statement:
**The Finns also have an ability analogous to one other character we have seen in WoT; Min. In fact, it’s almost identical. One could say that the Finns have the same ability, just developed to the point where the Finns can interpret and see everything about a person, rather than the random, incomprehensible flashes Min sees.**
It's false. The Finn do not have Min's ability, so they do not have a higher degree of expertise, making your following point useless.
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Anubis: 2006-06-16
The mechanism is different, though the results are similar.
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Aeolus: 2006-06-20
**Then Rand got spectacularly lucky that his questions were answered by Aelfinn who were blind to this necessity.**
Callandor, you have spent considerable time arguing on another post that there is no such thing as luck and that Rand can't die, so, if you are correct there you must therefore be incorrect here: he did not get lucky; he was permitted by the Pattern to get away with asking his questions. ;)
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Callandor: 2006-06-21
**Callandor, you have spent considerable time arguing on another post that there is no such thing as luck and that Rand can't die, so, if you are correct there you must therefore be incorrect here: he did not get lucky; he was permitted by the Pattern to get away with asking his questions.**
Or, there is no connection between the Aelfinn, Eelfinn, and the Dark One that prohibits them. (And sarcasm is a key thing ;)).
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Anubis: 2006-06-23
I have always believed that the Finns do not view threads that lead to the Dark One because the Dark One can look back and possibly touch the Finns.
Its like one of those movies where a person knows you are using psychic powers on them and they might be pissed.
16
Traveller: 2006-06-24
I am fascinated by what Anubis says. Originally I made a reply wondering why Finns didn't like questions about the Dark, coz i thought it was just a Jordan thing put in to stop people going in and just asking how to win the last Battle, you know? But, I reckon Anubis has got it in one! It makes complete sense to me that the Finns won't look down the threads connected to the DO, because he will be able to touch them, because throughout WoT, we are continually being told that the DO can't touch you unless you kinda *reach out to him* by I dunno, saying his name, or atleast he can't touch you without a connection, and we are also told that once he has a connection with you, he can *touch* you, etc.
I apologise if I phrased this wrong, but yeah, I think that is the answer to something that has been bugging me for AGES!
17
KINGofWOLVES: 2006-06-28
Traveller you said:
"Originally I made a reply wondering why Finns didn't like questions about the Dark, coz i thought it was just a Jordan thing put in to stop people going in and just asking how to win the last Battle,"
Didnt Rand ask how to win the last battle and live? And they told him "to live you must die".
Also, nobody has mentioned the taveren "strain" on finnland whn mat and rand were in there. It seems to me that proves they have to be part of the pattern.
18
nsondej: 2006-07-10
With the snakes and foxes thing, I think the game may somehow been started by one of the men whose memories are in matt's head or something. Its been wondered whether the finn can see through matts eyes, so maybe the man who made it wanted to reveal the weaknesses of the finn without them noticing. THat said, a childrens game would last longer than a book because a book rots and decays unless there is interest in it. A childhood game is an idea and ideas last. Therefore the rhyme that goes along with snakes and foxes preserved the knowledge w/o the finns knowing...or something like that. Also i think there is a connection between the three different things and the three people who are going...thom is obviously the music, matts medallion or his knives may be the iron, or maybe alludras fireworks/matches are his fire. I dont remember the third person but its a start?
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BrainFireBob: 2006-07-24
Off of what's been said, I'd like to weigh in.
I've always been of the mindset that the Aes Sedai were mistaken in that there were two categories of punished question: Frivolous and Dark One touching.
I've always thought that from anyone BUT the Dragon, asking something touching the Dark One was frivolous.
20
Prince of Ravens: 2006-07-25
I like that idea of frivolous from anyone but the dragon, but ... why was Rand coming out backwards with his firesword then?
21
Ozymandias: 2006-07-25
KINGofWOLVES.... thats a totally separate question. He wasn't asking how to win the Last Battle, or even if he was, the answer he got had nothing to do with it. What he received was an answer on how to survive... which I guess amounts to the same thing, but not totally
22
JakOShadows: 2006-07-25
Brainfirebob:
Wouldn't other people have a vested interest in whether the DO won the LB? I think even the average Joe Randlander would have some interest in it. So while it is possible, it doesn't seem to make logical sense. Now some questions might be true in that instance, like only the DR would have to know how to defeat the DO. But it seems a far stretch that anything touching the DO would be considered frivolous to anyone except Rand, because there are many characters that I think would have some interest in it.
23
BrainFireBob: 2006-07-27
Not necessarily.
While it matters to all of them, only Rand can really effect it- it's also possible that Mat, Moiraine, anyone involved in the struggle now, could ask about the DO, but in any previous era, where the DO wasn't about to break free, would have been frivolous because they were helpless to effect it, hence making it a frivolous question.
24
4Alethinos: 2006-08-02
I agree with the proposition that the Finns are a part of the Pattern. the mechanisms by which they read the Pattern or grant wishes is within the scope of the Pattern as woven by the Wheel. Rand was not lucky. He is Ta'veren and his questions were as controlled as any other part of his life.
Mat, too, is Ta'veren and was also directed through both gates. In each he received what he needed for his tasks within the Pattern for the defeat of the Dark One. No accidents allowed, IMO.
I agree that the Finns are neither moral or amoral. They have a morality that is alien and not to be confused with any humanistic form of maorality seen in the books as RJ has spelled them out.
I believe that their existence is an intended thing by the Creator and as such are used by the Wheel for its purposes in weaving the lives of those in the real world. The interactions with humans do seem to provide the Finns some benefit. They spoke of how long it had been since anyone had visited them and how they seemed to relish the chance.
Mat's memories were not the result of an accident. The Wheel needed a superb general and it got one. The Dragon reborn needed to know that in some way his person could survive immediately after the sealing of the Bore even if it involved some form of death or dying.
You may groan now, Callandor.
25
callmeISHAMAEL: 2006-08-15
The Dark One is outside the Pattern?
Remember in the Prologue to LoC
"EVEN I[Shai'tan] CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME. If hes outside the Pattern, he IS outside of time so why would he need to step?
26
Callandor: 2006-08-15
**The Dark One is outside the Pattern?**
Yes, he is:
**BWB: The World of Robert Jordan’s The Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: 1 - The Wheel and the Pattern
The only known forces outside the Wheel and the Pattern are the Creator, who shaped the Wheel, the One Power that drives it--as well as the plan for the Great Pattern--and the Dark One, who was imprisoned outside the pattern by the Creator at the moment of creation. No one inside and of the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern. Even those who are ta'veren can only alter, but not completely change, the weave. It is believed that if he escapes his prison, the Dark One, being a creature or force beyond creation, has the ability to remake the Wheel and all of creation in his own dark image. Thus each person, especially each of those born ta'veren, must struggle to achieve his or her own best destiny to assure the balance and continuation of the Great Pattern.**
The Dark One, like the Creator, is separate and beyond the Wheel, the Pattern, and the One Power. He does however, through the means of his prison and the Bore, work under the restraints of the Pattern and Wheel. Hence why he works with humans to free them; hence his influence over the weather; hence why he cannot step outside of time to bring back Rahvin.
He is not a part of the Pattern like Rand, Mat, Perrin, etc. are; he just has to work through it.
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Callandor: 2006-08-15
Sorry, forgot to mention that the Dark One in that specific instance is remarking on bringing back Rahvin, who was apart of the Wheel. It's alluded to in what I said before, but just not directly. Because he is still imprisoned, the Dark One has to work through the confines of the Pattern and Wheel still. If he's freed, then the game radically changes; until then, he only has the tiny influence through the Bore to utilize, and hence is hampered still.
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Anubis: 2006-08-16
**"EVEN I[Shai'tan] CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME. If hes outside the Pattern, he IS outside of time so why would he need to step? **
It is more complicated than that. Even if time is completely irrelevent to the Dark One it is not to the pattern. The pattern has its own set of rules which the Dark One is forced to follow. The rules are breaking down as the Dark One is becoming more and more free, but he is still constrained until the day he is completely freed.
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Ozymandias: 2006-08-16
I have a question for all of you, but most especially Callandor. Why does the Pattern tolerate the Dark One to work within its confines? (as in... why is he allowed to influence the Pattern). The theory I hear repeated most often, especially by Callandor, who I slugged it out with on this point earlier, is that the Wheel/Pattern is all knowing and all powerful. Why, then, is it permitting an outside influence to come in and attempt to direct it in a way that is, by definition, contrary to its nature? One cannot simultaneously hold the argument that the Wheel/Pattern has already determined the outcome of Tarmon Gai'don when you also hold the argument that the Dark One is capable of influencing people within the Pattern and under the Pattern's control. Its contrary to common sense, logic, and the supposed best interest of the Wheel. And besides... maybe I brought this up before, but how is there a Mirror World in which the Dark One triumphed if the Wheel is omnipotent?
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Callandor: 2006-08-18
**Why does the Pattern tolerate the Dark One to work within its confines? (as in... why is he allowed to influence the Pattern). The theory I hear repeated most often, especially by Callandor, who I slugged it out with on this point earlier, is that the Wheel/Pattern is all knowing and all powerful. Why, then, is it permitting an outside influence to come in and attempt to direct it in a way that is, by definition, contrary to its nature?**
Because the Wheel plans for change. The Wheel allowed (and quite simply directed) the drilling of the Bore because it brought about change. The drilling of the Bore influences everything right up until this day. A change that big is obviously the work of the Wheel.
Just look at what has happened that the Dark One has done. We've seen examples that the Wheel predicted what would occur based both on the fact of the Foretelling of Rand's birth (along with Mat and Perrin and others of course), and that now the ghosts are appearing which is a major sign of the closeness of the Last Battle.
The Wheel "allows" the Dark One to work through the Bore because that is a method of control then -- it controls how much influence he has in the world, and then what happens from that is similarly controlled.
All of it is ultimately to bring about change. It's not as if the Wheel is in any danger. People tend to confuse this by saying "The Wheel wouldn't intend for its own destruction, so it wouldn't allow the drilling of the Bore." But that is not what is occuring. The Wheel is not allowing for it's own destruction; it's making change.
**And besides... maybe I brought this up before, but how is there a Mirror World in which the Dark One triumphed if the Wheel is omnipotent?**
Where is there one such stated? None of what we've seen showcase that at all.
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Anubis: 2006-08-19
**And besides... maybe I brought this up before, but how is there a Mirror World in which the Dark One triumphed if the Wheel is omnipotent?**
The Dark One won in a mirror world in the sense that humanity was destroyed and there is nothing to stop him from being freed, but he wasn't actually freed. Dispite there being many worlds, there is only one Dark One, and that world was just a reflection of the real one.
32
JakOShadows: 2006-08-19
Anubis:
Actually, didn't Verin tell Egwene that if the DO is free in a mirror world he is free in reality(when Egwene is given the dream ter'angreal). So I don't agree with your interpretation. Rather I believe that all the worlds ended up trapping the DO, however it happened. Then the trollocs won the trolloc wars and you can technically say that the DO rules that mirror world now that everyone is dead there. But in that situation the DO would still not be able to touch the pattern.
33
Ozymandias: 2006-08-20
As Anubis said, there was such a world. I believe the Mirror World they find themselves in in TGH was one in which the Dark One triumphed. Or at least, the Trollocs did. It amounts to much the same thing, I suppose. Unless you're of the school of thought that the Wheel of course WANTS the Trollocs to win, and thats why they did. Which is completely contradictory to the viewpoint that Rand & Co are destined for victory. I mean, take it objectively. In a world where only creatures of the Dark One live, and only the creatures of the Dark One rule, and there is no chance of anyone else ever coming back, can you honestly say the Wheel still holds the balance of power? Without contradicting the idea that Rand is the champion of the Wheel? Because this is the only World that matters (according to Tam, our wise and noble and flawless leader), all other worlds must be a reflection in outcomes of this world and not in the basics. And since Rand being Champion of Light is half the fundamental part of the biggest issue in Randland (though according to Callandor even the Nae'blis serves the Wheel, so really there is no conflict and therefore no basis for writing a book at all), that would hold true in every Mirror World as well. Meaning Rand lost, or his predecessors lost, in some variation of this world.
34
JakOShadows: 2006-08-22
***Meaning Rand lost, or his predecessors lost, in some variation of this world.***
The part about his predecessors failing in some way can be true. But also don't think it would be true to say that the DO won yet. Because the DO hasn't broken free of his prison yet, so it is not complete victory yet. But yes, if no one is left alive in a mirror world, he has won a major victory there.
The paradox to this is that it still boils down to Rand in the real world. Because if it is a mirror world and is the alternative world to the current, it can't logically go ahead of it either. So that means that the moment when he will try to break free will have not come yet and can't happen if he is defeated in reality. Because if Rand traps the DO at the same time the alternate mirror world is created; even though it would be the wrong decision, the DO was trapped at the same time from reality and couldn't take advantage of it. It is a paradox of sorts, but it seems the most logical explanation to me.
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Anubis: 2006-08-22
**Then the trollocs won the trolloc wars and you can technically say that the DO rules that mirror world now that everyone is dead there. But in that situation the DO would still not be able to touch the pattern.**
Uh... yeah. Thats pretty much exactly what I said.
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Callandor: 2006-08-22
**Then the trollocs won the trolloc wars and you can technically say that the DO rules that mirror world now that everyone is dead there.**
Why do people say that everyone there died? The Trollocs can just have been successful at that battle and more and pushed humanity down further rather than completely irradicating them.
**I believe the Mirror World they find themselves in in TGH was one in which the Dark One triumphed. Or at least, the Trollocs did. It amounts to much the same thing, I suppose.**
No, it does not. Victory for the Dark One is one thing: being freed from his prison. That did not occur -- hence, he did not "win."
**Unless you're of the school of thought that the Wheel of course WANTS the Trollocs to win, and thats why they did. Which is completely contradictory to the viewpoint that Rand & Co are destined for victory.**
You do understand the point of a Mirror World? Worlds that are not the real world, and have no true bearing on the real world, except possibly as potential dry-runs for the Wheel's plans?
**In a world where only creatures of the Dark One live, and only the creatures of the Dark One rule, and there is no chance of anyone else ever coming back, can you honestly say the Wheel still holds the balance of power?**
I don't see how the creatures that eventually became Seanchan animals were creatures of the Shadow. And again is the entire aspect of why does everyon say that there were no humans anymore?
**Because this is the only World that matters (according to Tam, our wise and noble and flawless leader), all other worlds must be a reflection in outcomes of this world and not in the basics.**
Very strange that you've said some of your other comments in that post as well as this.
**And since Rand being Champion of Light is half the fundamental part of the biggest issue in Randland (though according to Callandor even the Nae'blis serves the Wheel, so really there is no conflict and therefore no basis for writing a book at all), that would hold true in every Mirror World as well.**
Well, I'd love for this series to be attributed to me, but I know where I stop and Jordan begins. Especially in this instance:
**Q: What happens to the soul of someone when he becomes a Gray Man. Is his thread removed from the Pattern, or are threads and souls different things alltogether?
A: Err, they are... Oh, uhm, no, it is gone. It is gone. And it ceases to exist in any form that you could of as real.
Q: So threads and souls are the same thing?
A: Err, not the same thing, but they must coexist. The thread can be removed; you die in this world. You die and the soul remains to come again and begin another thread. The soul disappears from this Gray Man, it's gone. Think of the Dark One as having eaten it. It's a fiction, but a convenient fiction for the moment.
The thread of the Gray Man remains until the Gray Man dies, physically.
Q: And the rest of the Shadowspawn?
A: What? Do they have souls you mean?
Q: Yeah, and how do their threads work?
A: The threads work in the way, in the same way that the thread of any living thing works. It is part of the Pattern. They are not outside of the Pattern. Neither are the Forsaken. But the Pattern in a thing that is open, that's change. It is not a matter of the lives being forced necessarily. It's wide, you have the Pattern, the Heroes that are bound to the Wheel, they're not always heroes in the way of someone who rides in galloping with a sword, or carries out daring rescues. The people, the Heroes who are bound to the Wheel, are the corrective mechanisms. Human behaviour is throwing the Pattern out. It's throwing the balance off. And the Wheel spins out the proper correctives. Put everything back in the balace. So not even the Forsaken are apart from that, they're not outside. The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither affected by the Pattern.**
So it's not like it's a radical idea that I have -- it's Jordan's own simply statements. The Forsaken are part of the Pattern just like anyone else, and hence are effected by it's designs.
**Meaning Rand lost, or his predecessors lost, in some variation of this world.**
Only again if you believe that everyone is dead. And even then, it was no "victory" for the Dark One -- he was still imprisoned.
And have you given up on your previous questions you asked for me to answer?
**But yes, if no one is left alive in a mirror world, he has won a major victory there.**
Don't see why. He seems to have trouble getting free of his prison on his own....
37
Duggadugga: 2006-08-23
The Wheel of Time works beyond mortal comprehension of reality. Yes, in one world the Trolloc's won the Trolloc War. However, the Great Lord did not achieve his ultimate goal. He did not break the Wheel of Time and recreate the world in his own image. The trolloc victory left a dead world behind, but the Wheel still turns. Also, we are forgetting the explaination given to us in reference to the mirror worlds. They are worlds of what "might" have happened had different choices been made.
I've always had a notion that the Creator and thusly the Wheel of Time, never does anything without purpose. Perhaps the Creator deemed it neccessary for the trollocs to win the war in a mirror world only to make it the perfect place for Lanfear to trap Rand, giving him his first heron to "set his path." The extremity of my mini-theory is not too far fetched. Just look at the history of Rand's birth to find out how far the Creator and the Wheel will go to make sure the Pattern is woven properly.
......But that's not here nor there. I seem to have run away from the point of my reply....
I was trying to say that mirror worlds are reflections of the real world if different choices had been made. If the Chosen could have freed the Great Lord in that scorched mirror world after they resurfaced then they would have.
Which leads into my other mini-theory. That the Great Lord can only be freed by the Creator's avatar, the Dragon Reborn; who exists in only one world, the real world...but thats another thread for another time
38
JakOShadows: 2006-08-23
Anubis:
I'm sorry. I was refering to your previous post on the topic. Your response and mine were probably posted at the same time in that random order, which made it confusing.
39
JakOShadows: 2006-08-24
***
**But yes, if no one is left alive in a mirror world, he has won a major victory there.**
Don't see why. He seems to have trouble getting free of his prison on his own....***
I'm not saying that it will contribute to him breaking free; but in that world, I find it hard to believe that it wouldn't be considered a major defeat if all humanity is destroyed.
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Callandor: 2006-08-24
**I've always had a notion that the Creator and thusly the Wheel of Time, never does anything without purpose.**
The Creator doesn't factor in here. He imprisoned the Dark One, made the Wheel and the world, and then essentially "left" everything. The Wheel is what is in control, not the Creator.
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Anubis: 2006-08-24
**Why do people say that everyone there died? The Trollocs can just have been successful at that battle and more and pushed humanity down further rather than completely irradicating them.**
Because I find it insanely unlikely that the Trollocs eradicated Hawkwings empire, pushed humanity back further to the south, then started killing eachother off while humans still remained. Though there could be humans left on the island of madness, but since when has that ever mattered?
42
Callandor: 2006-08-26
**Because I find it insanely unlikely that the Trollocs eradicated Hawkwings empire, pushed humanity back further to the south, then started killing eachother off while humans still remained. Though there could be humans left on the island of madness, but since when has that ever mattered?**
You're asserting an awfully lot here.
1. Who says that they destroyed Hawkwing's Empire? All that we know is that they won a pivital battle instead of losing it.
2. If you're agreeing, even tenuously, that there still are people in the world, how does that show this is a "victory?"
3. You're just implying this here, but doing it quite strongly. Again, how does it show that even the loss of millions of people is a "victory" for the Dark One? The Shadowspawn won a battle, yes. Did the Dark One win? From what we've been told about Mirror Worlds, absolutely not. Victory for the Dark One is getting free of his prison. He did not do that in that world, since the world is still there (and he's not freed in the real world).
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JakOShadows: 2006-08-27
***3. You're just implying this here, but doing it quite strongly. Again, how does it show that even the loss of millions of people is a "victory" for the Dark One? The Shadowspawn won a battle, yes. Did the Dark One win? From what we've been told about Mirror Worlds, absolutely not. Victory for the Dark One is getting free of his prison. He did not do that in that world, since the world is still there (and he's not freed in the real world).***
I know that the DO is not free yet, but I don't its far wrong to say that it was a victory. What you are saying is since he hasn't won the war completely we can't call it a great victory, when in reality it is done actual documentation of wars. Think about WWII, Hitler dominated France in a matter of weeks, yet he did not win the war. Are saying that can't be considered a great victory? I agree that it is not the DO is not free yet, but I think you are being a bit literal in saying it can't be called a victory. Because it got him closer to touching the pattern in that mirror world. It's like saying that the DO didn't achieve a victory by changing the weather, or taking control of the BT. And I don't agree with literal definition at all.
44
Anubis: 2006-08-28
**1. Who says that they destroyed Hawkwing's Empire? All that we know is that they won a pivital battle instead of losing it. **
Go find a dictionary. Look up pivotal. Get back to me.
Arguing that Trollocs crushed Hawkwings army, and did not destroy his empire is nit picking at the very best. At worst, its just being obtuse. The land was completely ravaged, and Loials comments about the trees would imply that at the very least, there were no people within a few hundred miles. Are you trying to tell me that some force, other than the Trollocs caused this? The Trollocs won a major battle, then somehow got killed off, and then some other mystery force arose and ravaged the lands? Or are you trying to say that Hawkwing's empire was pushed back to.. oh, lets say Tear? The evidence, while far from conclusive, would imply otherwise.
And as for the Dark One winning. Please. Humanity barely stands a chance in the normal reality, how could you possibly argue that humanity could make a comeback in a reality where they were doing far, far, worse?
45
Callandor: 2006-08-28
**I know that the DO is not free yet, but I don't its far wrong to say that it was a victory.**
But it's not a victory. The Dark One isn't free. What happened there didn't get him free in any way. So, how is that a victory?
**Are saying that can't be considered a great victory?**
For the Dark One? Since it's not in the series, of course not.
**I agree that it is not the DO is not free yet, but I think you are being a bit literal in saying it can't be called a victory. Because it got him closer to touching the pattern in that mirror world.**
They're Mirror Worlds. Get it? Mirror Worlds. They're not the real world, just variations of what might have happened. Even there he didn't get a victory.
**It's like saying that the DO didn't achieve a victory by changing the weather, or taking control of the BT.**
How are those victories? Because of those, is the Dark One free? Without him being free, there really is no grounds to say it's a "victory." That's his only goal. Getting "closer" to a goal, however you define that (correctly or not), isn't the same as achieving it. That is why these are not victories.
46
JakOShadows: 2006-08-29
Callandor:
Sorry about the confusion. Obviously we are working with different definitions of the word victory; I am think a victory in battle and you are thinking a victory in war. That is fine by me. Call it whatever you want, but I was just trying to show that he got closer to his goal. That's all.
47
Callandor: 2006-08-29
**Arguing that Trollocs crushed Hawkwings army, and did not destroy his empire is nit picking at the very best. At worst, its just being obtuse.**
I love that it's nitpicking, when it's really just showing exactly where the information stops.
Again, what we know is that Hawkwing lost a battle. You're extending that to mean they crushed his entire Empire. There's a big distinction there and you're just accepting the two are the exact same.
**The land was completely ravaged, and Loials comments about the trees would imply that at the very least, there were no people within a few hundred miles. Are you trying to tell me that some force, other than the Trollocs caused this?**
No, I'm not. What I am trying to get across to you is that there can be absolutely no one around for hundreds of miles due to Shadowspawn having killed them in that area, and yet there still can be people living in the world -- you know, past those hundreds of miles.
**And as for the Dark One winning. Please. Humanity barely stands a chance in the normal reality, how could you possibly argue that humanity could make a comeback in a reality where they were doing far, far, worse?**
1. Again, the entire point that this is a Mirror World, and doesn't truly effect the real world in anyway.
2. It is again a victory if the Dark One get's free. He obviously was not freed in that world, no matter how many people are dead. Sure, maybe he was winning more than the real world in comparison, but he didn't win.
48
zpappa: 2006-09-08
In response to this post
***
The Dark One is outside the Pattern?
Remember in the Prologue to LoC
"EVEN I[Shai'tan] CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME. If hes outside the Pattern, he IS outside of time so why would he need to step?
***
I believe this instance was referring to Rand's use of balefire to rid the pattern of a specific thread. Balefire burns a thread out of the pattern (the specifics of which are not relevant to this point). This means that the life/soul/personage of the individual in question is no longer available for use. As such, the DO cannot touch or alter that thread in the pattern because it does not exist.
The fact that the word time was used implies an inherent one-way linear relationship of time which is brought up to question by the specifics surrounding the usage of balefire.
In any event, this quote clearly states that time is one way, linear, and there is no going back.
49
Fizz: 2006-10-14
This topic certainly has gotten way off topic, but I just had to make an addition to the theory behind the Mirror Worlds. When "Selene" is talking to Rand and Loial about them, she mentions reading a book called "Mirrors Of The Wheel". Here is the excerpt, from TGH, ch. 17 (Choices), pg. 269 last full paragraph:
She gave him a look, then nodded. "Yes. Exactly. Those worlds tryly are mirrors in a way, especially the ones where there are no people. Some of them reflect only great events in the true world, but some have a shadow of that reflection even before the event occurs. The passage of the Horn of Valere would certainly be a great event. Reflections of what will be are fainter than reflections of what is or what was, just as Hurin says the trail he followed was faint."
Since Hurin can smell the evil that the band of Trollocs, Myrdraal and darkfriends were going to create, one has to suppose that there are mirror worlds out there that project what MIGHT be as well as those that project things that could have been. Taking that assumption into consideration, could not the Finns live in one of these worlds where the reality is one of what might be in the true world? Just a thought, and perhaps something to tie the two ideas together.
50
Fear: 2006-10-19
One thing I noticed that nobody mentioned, at least that I saw as I was skimming all the posts was Slayer. When Slayer was fleeing from Perrin in world of dreams he escaped by using the tower of Ghenjai (sp). There was much discussion on the finns being an evil different than the DO. This from Birgitte in the same scene. yet slayer or Isam or Lan's uncle captured and turned by the DO was able to control trollocs hence a servant of the DO is using the finns to escape suggests if not a connection, than at least some kind of neutrality between the two. Isam didn't seem to suffer any problems from his jaunt into Finnland. If the finns were worried about the DO finding them through threads, why are high level soldiers in the dark ones army using their world to escape from one guy. How Isam managed to get into telaranrhiod in the flesh suggests if not saidin than the true source, yet another reason not to go there if the finns don't like anything to do with DO.
Thought #2: What do the finns get out of having people show up. They go through all this trouble to give answers and whatnot. Why? With both Rand and Mat in there at the same time, they all seemed quite happy for a short time, almost as if they were feeding off of the threads of the pattern they brought with them. Pattern parasites that lure people into their world to feed off of them. when two ta'veren ran around it almost destroyed their world. This puts me in mind of the bubbles in the pattern where dude kicks it with cyndane and moghedien. Very fragile, but outside the pattern.
As to Mat being meant to have the medallion and his memories, I think that is more likely that if he didnt get them he wouldnt survive till the last battle. So there are probably a couple hundred mirror worlds where Mat didnt get these things and hence didnt survive. RJ just doesnt use one of those because then the whole series would end on a bad note and he'd have to deal with a lot of very angry people that have been reading these books for the last 20 freaking years.
51
Dragons Shadow: 2006-12-04
In reference to the Mirror World in TGH:
Suppose that the Trollocs DID destroy humanity. Rand was never born, the Eye of the World was never drained, the first seal was never broken, none of the Forsaken escaped the sealing, the Dark One NEVER ESCAPES because there is no one to create the chaos that he needs to break the seals.
In any case the point is moot. A Mirror World is simply a reflection of the real world, showing the way things might have been. THEY ARE NOT REAL. Everyone seems to be confusing Mirror Worlds with Parallel Worlds which ARE real.
As for the Finns world. Might it not be one of the "other" worlds that lie across the real world. the ones that are so different from the real world.
Consider this, If the Finns world lies across the real world, wouldnt that mean that the flow of time for that world would also flow differently? That could give the Finns the ability to "read" a large amount of the real world in a much shorter period of time by reading the possibilities in all of the mirror worlds as well. Just think of it as lace, and each world as a thread in the lace. Each thread of the warp touches all of the threads of the woof. So, by having more information at their disposal, the Finns are able to answer questions accurately. Also, by the same note, they may also have access to "lost" items in each of the worlds that their world touches. These items, such as the foxhead, can be used to grant wishes when the Finns inherent powers cannot.
OK . . . Ready . . . Set . . . GO!!!
Trash away ;)
52
Tamyrlin: 2006-12-05
Dragon Shadows, regarding the Finn World, we have been dissecting Mirror Worlds and TAR and the like for a long time, so last year (?) at Dragon Con I asked Jordan a series of questions regarding such. He verified that Parallel Worlds and Mirror Worlds were different, and I agree, Mirror Worlds are not Real, as Parallel Worlds are. However, he also said in response to a question that the Finns live in a Parallel World, if my memory serves me right. You can find details on all of the questions on the message board.
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Finwitch: 2007-02-08
Courage. (Well you don't go there otherwise..)
Music to dazzle. (That's Thom's job. Music will clear the mind of the 3 questers)
Fire to Blind-- I think that's Ballydas Fireworks Mat brings in -- or, becouse you must change the rules - a torch: Fire to SEE. (Though it might blind the Foxes/Snakes - the Finns that is).
Iron to bind. Hm. So you need Iron to free Moiraine, I suppose... If not shackles etc. to bind your enemies?
54
heridfel: 2007-09-03
Since RJ has stated that Finnland IS parallel I know that I'm wrong, but I always thought of Finnland as an Intersecting world while the mirror worlds were parallel. While the mirror worlds run alongside the real world the Finn world seems to share only a small similarity. There was also something of the way Birgitte described things that gave me this inclination, but RJ's words are definative so I was wrong. Also I feel like it is pretty clear that the wheel has no consciousness, sentience, or desire etc... It is simply an automaton designed to maintain balance, which it does through weaving the pattern. This fits into the deist philosophy in which the WOT reality seems to exist i.e. a creator created a world in perfect balance with all the mechanisms to maintain that balance, and then left it as it no longer needed any interference. The wheel is simply like a perfect computational device it operates on a set of rules without any value besides balance. The heroes are simply tools used to re-establish balance... too me it makes sense that the forsaken and the like are essentially wheel anti-heroes who must be brought in when the balance becomes more light than dark. That's why the wheel set the stage for the bore the world was becoming too dominated by the forces of the light. And why do the Finn's need to be immortal just to have been the same people even though we have no evidence they are in fact the same. It is certainly possible they just live much longer than Randlanders... or maybe Randlanders going through the portal always end up at a similar time in Finnland where physics operate in a much different way, there are so many possibilities, and it is all just speculation. I think the question rules and the other rules simply have something to do with the agreement the finns are always talking about, and nothing to do with the finns fearing some backlash from the dark one, why would the finns fear the dark one more than anyone else?
55
logger: 2007-09-11
Newbie veering off topic a bit, but I haven't heard any thoughts as to why you are only allowed to enter the doorways once, and the implications of Matt preparing to enter it a second time. Also, are you unable to enter the doorways with fire/iron/music, or just aren't supposed to. Aludra's matches aren't fire per se, but could be a sneaky way to get it in.
Thoughts?
