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livia Will Balefire Rand's Killer After Tarmon Gai'don

by amazinglarry: 2005-10-21 | 2.91 out of 10 (22 votes)

Recent Categories: How Will It End?

I’ve been lurking on this site for the past few years, occasionally making posts in response to theories and on the message boards. This is the first formal theory I’ve written up, though.

In WH Ch. 25, Min has a viewing that Alivia will help Rand die.

""You said she was going to help me die," he said quietly. "Those were your words." How would he feel at dying?"

There are numerous other places in the series where it is implied that Rand will die in TG, such as the line about “his blood on the rocks at Shayol Ghul” from the Karaethon Cycle (TSR Ch. 3).

In KoD, however, we find out that Rand asked the Aelfinn how to win TG and survive, and they told him “to live, you must die.” This is obviously confusing and contradictory, but nonetheless it strongly implies that Rand has a chance to survive the Last Battle, otherwise they would have simply told him “no way.” This also fits in with Jordan’s tendency to keep all of his main characters alive. One could argue that the Aelfinn didn’t literally mean that Rand would live, but maybe that he would exist in T’A’R as the other heroes of the horn do between lives. I think the literal interpretation is more likely, though, because Jordan’s foreshadowing often uses very straightforward symbolism (for example, Thom pulling Moraine’s blue stone out of a fire indicating that he’s going to go on the rescue mission). Also, Jordan has clearly set Rand up as a messiah figure, so it makes sense that Rand will die and be resurrected like Jesus was in the Bible.

So how does Min’s viewing of Alivia fit in with Rand’s survival? I think it means that Alivia is going to “help Rand die” by balefiring his killer, bringing Rand back to life. I predict that, after the seals are broken, Rand will repair the bore in the way that Lews Therin and company originally intended using a combination of male and female channelers. The specifics of how this will be done will come from Lews Therin’s voice in Rand’s head. After (or perhaps during), someone will kill Rand, the most likely candidates being Moridin and Padan Fain. The bore will be successfully sealed, though. Rand’s body will somehow end up on a boat with Elayne, Min and Aviendha, fulfilling Nicola’s Foretelling from LOC Ch. 14. At this point, Alivia will hit Rand’s killer with a blast of balefire, which will be perfectly timed such that it brings Rand back to life but does not undo his work in the bore-closing.

Recall that the Aelfinn told Mat he would “die and live again” in TSR Ch. 15, a contradictory prediction very similar to the Aelfinn’s answer to Rand’s question. Mat’s prediction was fulfilled when Rahvin killed Mat, then Rand balefired Rahvin, bringing Mat back.

We also know that Rand’s conflict with Lews Therin’s voice and Moridin’s face in his head will be resolved. In TPOD Ch. 15, Egwene dreams of “Rand, wearing different masks, until suddenly one of those false faces was no longer a mask, but him.” I think it’s possible that the balefiring incident will cure Rand, although other explanations are also likely. Moridin’s death will probably break his connection with Rand, and LTT’s voice could be Healed by Nynaeve, perhaps after extracting knowledge from Semirhage, who seemed to know about the phenomenon when she was captured. This is not a critical part of the theory, just an aside.

Others have proposed that Rand will be killed, but will live on after Nynaeve Heals his death. I think my theory makes more sense. Healing death is implausible and opens too big of a can of worms for RJ to realistically include it in the story.

Technically, I suppose I am arguing that Alivia will help Rand live, not help him die. I think this can be rationalized, though, simply because Alivia is the key participant in the process of Rand’s death and resurrection.

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Comments

1

Tamyrlin: 2005-10-22

Do we know for sure that balefire fulfills Mat's "die and live again" answer? Beyond just a general interpretation of what balefire did in that instance, have we had any Jordan responses verifying it? The reason I ask has more to do with how strong of support you might have for Alivia balefiring someone. We know she is very strong in the OP, likely able to balefire someone back at least hours, if not more, without the use of an angreal or sa'angreal. And, if the Finn's, who gave Rand a similiar "live and die" answer, were proved to have been discussing their interpretation of what affect balefire produces, then you could be on the right track. However, why do you think Rand HAS to die, to live? In other words, it would seem that his death should accomplish something, if it is something that must happen for him to live after Tarmon Gai'don. What will his death accomplish, what does his death have to do with the end? Or am I just reading too much into the idea that they are telling him he must die, if he wants to survive Tarmon Gai'don? Why can't he live?

2

Chaginxin: 2005-10-22

My main problem with this theory is how does balefiring Rand's killer "help him die"?

3

Hammar: 2005-10-23

When the Aelfinn told Mat that he would "die and live again", I took that as he would die and live many lives. He does have all those memories of dying and living hundreds of lives. Mat always complains that he remembers dying a lot, and I know Mat isn't the most sensitive guy, but he seems a little distraught about it. Dying and Living again as other men has to suck when it's all in your head.

Back to the theory though, I agree Alivia will help Rand die, but balefiring his killer doesn't sound like it is helping him die. The only way I could see that happening is if Moridin did something horrible through Rand because of the link they share and Alivia balefired RAND to remove what Moridin did (which is a theory I have but not perfected yet). But besides that, I think that maybe Alivia actually has to kill a part of Rand, not save it, as is viewed by Min.

4

Anuzan: 2005-10-23

I got a couple of things to say about the info in this theory.

Mat also died after he came out of the doorway and Rand revieved him, so that could have straight away fulfilled that part.

Alivia could link with someone or use the powerful angreal that Nynaeve has which lets her use about two and a half times more of the power that usual, which should make her powerful enough to send it back a few hours to a day.

5

mako0424: 2005-10-23

I like this theory alot, obviously its been stated often, with many other possibilities and twisting tangents, but as other people stated, it doesnt really help him die, but thats also technical, you know, Rand helped Mat die by taking him to Rhuidean with him technicaly, n'est pas?

so there are many ways Alivia could help him die but i thought of it as more maybe helping part of him die, ie. The LTT part. Which fulfils a few prophecieies, crumbling masks, and stuff.

But its interesting because we know from the start that Alivia has a huge connection with Rand, and acts as his personal bodyguard and admirer in my opinion, which with blonde hair might start more Illyena theories, like they die together Alivia and LTT, but anyways, besdeis the point, i think Rand will die completely, and all Forsaken will die, but Moridin/Ishy, coz he always will be around even after the complete Sealing, and i think someone will Balefire him back hard, and bring Rand back in the boat.

i started with one idea, and put down like 10 but im agreeing and twisting myself.

6

amazinglarry: 2005-10-23

I thought RJ confirmed that Mat's "die and live again" prophecy was fulfilled when Mat was killed by Rahvin and then brought back when Rahvin was balefired. At least, I think RJ said that Mat did not actually die when he was hung in Rhuidean...he was close to death but did not die. I can't find the quotes for this though...I'll keep looking and post it if I can find it.

7

amazinglarry: 2005-10-23

Alright, I found the quote I was looking for. It's listed in the FAQ under the "Is Mat still linked to the Horn" section:

Bill Garrett's report of RJ's appearance at Balticon 30 (April 1996) mentions: "(Jordan noted that Mat's death by lightning and subsequent undoing of his death when Rand balefired Rahvin, fulfills a prophecy about living, dying, and then living again.)" Tim Kington reports that, when asked how long Mat had hung from the Tree of Life in Rhuidean, RJ replied, "Long enough to be almost dead" (emphasis mine) [post-COT signing, Dayton, OH, January 16, 2004]. So, it is the Caemlyn incident and not the Rhuidean one that fulfills the prophecy.

I think the parallels are pretty strong given how similar Mat and Rand's answers from the Aelfinn are.

8

drz1649: 2005-10-23

if it's just his killer getting balefired, why does it matter who does it? something more must be needed to make Alivia essential (assuming strength isn't the issue, in that respect - it's seems unlikely that Rand's death will be followed by a lengthy pursuit of his killer that neccesitates Alivia's balefire strength due to the time since death)

also, if Rand seals the Bore, gets killed by someone, and then that someone gets balefired, there is no reason to think the sealing will be affected (as you note). balefire removes the thread of those hit, not the thread of the targets victims. unless the killer himself took part in the sealing, the strength of the balefire is not an issue. what I am trying to say is, Rand would be resurrected by the balefiring of his killer, but his pre-death actions wouldn't be affected (with the caveat that the killer is not involved in his pre-death actions, ie. the Sealing).

personally, I think Rand's other hand will be severed (a prospect raised recently on the boards), possessed by Moridin, and then it will strangle Rand. Alivia will then balefire the hand, bringing Rand back to life. bam, several prophecies fulfilled.

9

Ozymandias: 2005-10-23

just as a slight correction point about the highly confusing nature of balefire. When Mat was resurrected, he technically never *died*. He was brought back to a point before death, so his death never actually occured. His living and dying I think is in reference to his hanging, somehow.

10

Sporkster: 2005-10-23

You state:

"Recall that the Aelfinn told Mat he would “die and live again” in TSR Ch. 15, a contradictory prediction very similar to the Aelfinn’s answer to Rand’s question. Mat’s prediction was fulfilled when Rahvin killed Mat, then Rand balefired Rahvin, bringing Mat back."

So we already have an incident of balefire reversing death. Would Jordan be so trite as to use the same mechanism again? This is one reason I doubt this theory.

Another is that there is no real purpose to the act, other than to bring Rand back to life. Why would Alivia do this? Bringing Rand back into a body that is pretty much a wreck BEFORE the Last Battle seems more a cruelty than a kindness.

11

Callandor: 2005-10-23

**When the Aelfinn told Mat that he would "die and live again", I took that as he would die and live many lives. He does have all those memories of dying and living hundreds of lives. Mat always complains that he remembers dying a lot, and I know Mat isn't the most sensitive guy, but he seems a little distraught about it. Dying and Living again as other men has to suck when it's all in your head.**

RJ said that the dying and living again of Mat was fulfilled by the death by lightning and brought back by Rahvin's balefiring.

**Mat also died after he came out of the doorway and Rand revieved him, so that could have straight away fulfilled that part.**

No, he almost died. Otherwise, Rand wouldn't have been able to resussitate him.

**I thought RJ confirmed that Mat's "die and live again" prophecy was fulfilled when Mat was killed by Rahvin and then brought back when Rahvin was balefired.**

He did.

**I think the parallels are pretty strong given how similar Mat and Rand's answers from the Aelfinn are.**

It's the only possible way I can truely see Rand physically dying, and still coming back to life. No other works.

However, I still disagree with it, since changing the shape and events of the Pattern at the Last Battle, the most important time for the Pattern ever I would argue, might be enough to unravel it itself. Toss in that it's Rand the center of attention here and it's a delicate situation.

That, and Rand really doesn't want to live anyway, messiahs always die, he serves no purpose after the Last Battle -- so why not keep him dead and allowing his soul to live on to be reborn again and again?

12

Anubis: 2005-10-24

Callandor, saying Messiahs always die is stupid. Everyone dies. Whoopde freakin do. Yes, Rand will eventually die, hes not freaking immortal.

13

nevynxxx: 2005-10-24

In TPOD Ch. 15, Egwene dreams of “Rand, wearing different masks, until suddenly one of those false faces was no longer a mask, but him.”

The way this is written this suggests to me that it will be one of the others *and not rand* that is left. Perhaps the theoryies that say Lews Therin will take over for the last battle are correct, and that he will die, and rand will somehow come back to live again.

I have never noticed the implications of that paragraph before. Thanks

14

Callandor: 2005-10-24

**Callandor, saying Messiahs always die is stupid. Everyone dies. Whoopde freakin do. Yes, Rand will eventually die, hes not freaking immortal.**

Ok, let me be specific. Messiahs die for what they stand for, they die young, they lead tortured lives, and they never survive their great feats.

They don't go off and ride into the sunset happily ever after -- they die for what they stand for in a moral victory, generally the price for a greater good.

15

haertchen: 2005-10-24

Callandor:

"Ok, let me be specific. Messiahs die for what they stand for, they die young, they lead tortured lives, and they never survive their great feats.

"They don't go off and ride into the sunset happily ever after -- they die for what they stand for in a moral victory, generally the price for a greater good."

Except the one that the term "messiah" actually comes from.

Yeah, he died, but he lived again.

16

Callandor: 2005-10-24

**Except the one that the term "messiah" actually comes from.

Yeah, he died, but he lived again.**

There are more messiah's then Jesus, you do realize, right?

17

Tristin: 2005-10-25

no you are wrong about the messiah/messianic. Messiah just refers to someone who is anticipated to be a liberator or savior figure. Messianic figures are people like Oscar de Romero, Che Gueverra, Jesus Christ, Rosa Parks, etc. Now while some Messianic figures die due to trying to liberate people from the powers that oppress them this is not actually part of what being a messiah entails. When this happens to a someone it is sometimes called martyrdom. A martyr is someone who suffers (and almost always dies) for what they believe...sometimes like with Romero and Che it occurs in conjunction with being a messianic figure. Yet while martyr and messiah can often go together due to the fact that by their very nature messianic figures make those in power want to kill them....there is no NESCESSARY connection between the two, only an occasional one.

18

mako0424: 2005-10-25

There kind of right Callandor, i think Messiah implies that they will live again, hence the reason its always used with religious connotations, but i think the more appropriate term would be...martyr (sp)

but a martyr IS someone who dies for their cause, and becomes enoblized for it, where as i think Rand will be more of a messiah figure none the less, in that he will die, he will be thought of as dead by everyone, but he may and still quite likely live on, quietly.

not so much off into the sunset, but maybe quiet life with his three wives, and herds of children.

19

Callandor: 2005-10-25

**but a martyr IS someone who dies for their cause, and becomes enoblized for it, where as i think Rand will be more of a messiah figure none the less, in that he will die, he will be thought of as dead by everyone, but he may and still quite likely live on, quietly.**

How is he going to be dead, then thought dead, then still alive? Those three do not work together.

And whatever you people wish you call it, you know the end result anyway.

**Q: how much of Jesus Christ is there in Rand? We have the wounded palms, side wound, crown of swords...How representational of JC is Rand?

A: Rand has some elements of Jesus Christ, yes. But he is intended more to be a general "messiah figure." An archetype such as Arthur, rather than a manifestation of Jesus Christ in any way.**

We can play the semantics game if you wish, but everyone knows my point, and knows the end result whatever you wish to try to convince yourselves of.

20

Flinn Sedai: 2005-10-25

Callandor and I don't usually see eye to eye. However, I believe that on this one, he is right.

Rand is a messianic figure. After Tarmon Gai'don, he is no longer needed. He doesn't need to be a martyr though, because there is nobody to convince. His cause is defeating the Dark One, and nobody is abstaining from choosing a side. They are either with the Dark One, or against him. As such, being a martyr doesn't make sense.

21

deep thought: 2005-10-25

Hi everyone, just a few thoughts. Questions really.

In the answers that Rand got from the Aelfinn they said "to live you must die" or some such. What is the generally accepted interpretation for this? Is it A: If Rand dies accomplishing particular tasks in the process before, during or even after(??) then he will be resurrected soon after? Or B: If he completes said task (probably defeating the DO, whatever that means exactly) then he will live again in the next cycle of the wheel?

In addition didn't Mat get a similar prophecy saying that his fate was to die and live again? I know that most people think he already did that with the balefire in Caemlyn or with the hanging straight after the Eelfinn, hell I still think that last one is most likely. However, it may be interesting to entertain the thought that maybe these two things are linked with each other and possibly with the LB. I wonder if it is also Perrin's fate to die and live again. I'm just speculating now but I'm sure Min had a viewing regarding the darkness over Rand, Mat and Perrin with spots of light appearing and disappearing. This was supposed to represent the battle between the light and the shadow, I recall that when all three ta'veren were together the light seemed to be winning. So it is likely that they all need to be together in one place for the LB, which could indicate that they should all die (to live again) at the battle.

This is all assuming of course that Rand dying will be part of the last battle itself. Perhaps, then, Alivia will have to help all three ta'veren to die.

Finally we know that after death, that is not really the end. We know also that the DO is the lord of death. So perhaps our heroes are supposed to enter the DO's domain to defeat him, again this is idle speculation but surely when/if the DO breaks free he will be free in all the worlds, so resealing him in or destroying him (whichever you prefer) means doing it in all, so we know this must be done somewhere everything is the same. T'A'R? I doubt it since doing anything here doesn't affect the real world. The nearest thing I can think of is some kind of domain of the dead (whatever that may be). Perhaps this idea can be taken further by noting that the dead are walking and that things keep changing (like corridors in the palace in Caemlyn), perhaps this is an indication that all the worlds are somehow merging, including that of the dead. It would probably help if we knew how LT sealed the bore the last time since I doubt it was done purely in the 'real' world.

Oh, by the way, just a idle thought: I reckon that male heartstone is black. 'Cos the seals are the ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai and that is what the seals to the DO's prison look like - black and white - and of course we know female heartstone is white. Who's with me?

22

haertchen: 2005-10-25

"You do know there are other messiah's besides Jesus, don't you?"

Of course I do. I just said that because, unfortunately for your argument, he's the ultimate counter-example to your position. And I have to add that I generally agree with Tristin on the definition of messiah. As I remember, messiah means savior, and a savior is one who saves. I doesn't much matter who he saves, and what he saves them from, and the nature of the rest of his life has no bearing on the word whatsoever. Admittedly, the kind of person you described does exist, in literature as well as reality, but I would consider that a sub-set of the larger group. If Rand falls in that group, I won't be terribly surprised; heaven only knows he's well on his way there. But it's not the only choice.

Callandor: "We can play the semantics game if you wish, but everyone knows my point, and knows the end result whatever you wish to try to convince yourselves of."

Um, not terribly logical, I'm afraid. If I understand you right, what you're saying is "You all know I'm right; you just won't admit it." Not terribly useful for changing people's minds, especially if they are honestly uncertain, like I am.

23

Callandor: 2005-10-25

**He doesn't need to be a martyr though, because there is nobody to convince. His cause is defeating the Dark One, and nobody is abstaining from choosing a side. They are either with the Dark One, or against him. As such, being a martyr doesn't make sense.**

Actually there are, though most people simply aren't fully aware of the situation.

The big point I feel Knife of Dreams was making was with the great "Gasp" moment that many people thought was pointless. The Amayar kill themselves because they know the time of illusions is at an end. The Age is ending -- the Last Battle is approaching. What do they do? They don't face it. They don't muster everyone to go strike at the Dark One. They kill themselves. You can read it to almost say "We aren't going to win anyway, so why try?" (granted, I don't think it was meant to be totally like that, but can see the implication). How many others would take the "easy" way out and simply give into the idea that the Dark One will break free, instead of fighting?

Another group is simply the people who don't realize the Last Battle is coming. It's pretty hard to still be in this group, since just about everyone with the hint of a clue knows it. The big problem is that they aren't concerned with it.

Case in point: the White Tower. If anyone, Aes Sedai should know first and foremost that the Last Battle is coming. Only the Forsaken I would rate knew before Aes Sedai (Moiraine and Siuan in this case -- maybe Verin too). Yet what the hell are they doing? They're fighting a seven book civil war and not doing jack crap toward the Last Battle. It's not even on their radar. Oh, sure, they all say they can feel the Dark One's influence and see his work. But what comes first? The Tower. (Or, they're simply sitting out the thing entirely!)

There are people like that all over the world who fight Rand, who don't acknowledge him, who do acknowledge him but harm his efforts, who fight amongst themselves, who simply do not care and are out for the gold, etc.

There are people who have and are abstaining. There are many more people who don't have their priorities straight. And there are plenty of people who could care less. They all, or at least a very good portion of them, need to learn what to do soon.

24

Callandor: 2005-10-25

**Of course I do. I just said that because, unfortunately for your argument, he's the ultimate counter-example to your position.**

Not really. Dying and living again is easy to explain with Rand actually dying and not being ressurected magically.

**Um, not terribly logical, I'm afraid. If I understand you right, what you're saying is "You all know I'm right; you just won't admit it." Not terribly useful for changing people's minds, especially if they are honestly uncertain, like I am.**

No, it's that no matter what name you wish to feel safe with bestowing on Rand, you know is eventual fate. He's going to die in the Last Battle. You know he serves no point to the story or the world after it. Savior, martyr, messiah -- whatever. You know the end result is his death at an appointed time.

25

Tamyrlin: 2005-10-25

Resurrected magically? Callandor, what are you talking about? Someone shot down your suggestion that Messiah's don't come back to life (or whatever it was I remember reading), and then you rejected their suggestion outright?

Jordan can write it the way he wants, and to be honest, he hasn't been impressing me with doing anything but following the script he wrote in previous books. If Jordan brings Rand back, it won't do anything to ruin the books, or change the value of the Last Battle, or the belief that Rand will die or should die, or prophecies that suggest it. If the Wheel wills then the Wheel wills. Add in a mix of ta'veren, with a touch of interpretation, and you can believe yes or no.

Plus, reincarnation is the name of the game in this universe, so isn't every Hero resurrected in Jordan's world?

Are you really suggesting that the books don't at least hint to Rand being able to make it, or to end up alive at the very end, or at least for it to be in question?

Honestly, I don't think Jordan is going to tell us either way.

26

Callandor: 2005-10-25

**Resurrected magically? Callandor, what are you talking about? Someone shot down your suggestion that Messiah's don't come back to life (or whatever it was I remember reading), and then you rejected their suggestion outright?**

I'm talking about people saying Rand will live happily ever after, after he died by whatever means. You know, taking the Jesus way. Magically resurrected. ~waves fingeres~

**Plus, reincarnation is the name of the game in this universe, so isn't every Hero resurrected in Jordan's world?**

They're reborn. It's a fluid definition, but Rand being resurrected is usually the decription of Nynaeve's mystical out of nowhere Healing weave against death. The natural course of the world is through rebirth by the Wheel. Call it resurrection, fine, but then you can change my description of "resurrection" to be "Rand bouncing back to life, not by the natural means of soul rebirth by the Wheel, after having died."

**Are you really suggesting that the books don't at least hint to Rand being able to make it, or to end up alive at the very end, or at least for it to be in question?**

They give hints, but people make far too much out of them. We all know Rand will die. We all know he serves no purpose after the Last Battle. What better way to exit the stage, than in a flash of glory?

**Honestly, I don't think Jordan is going to tell us either way.**

So, you honestly believe that Jordan is going to leave a completely unknown fate of Rand? That we'll never see what happens to him? That Rand will walk into the Pit of Doom and then the story will end, or something?

27

haertchen: 2005-10-25

Callandor: "No, it's that no matter what name you wish to feel safe with bestowing on Rand, you know is eventual fate. He's going to die in the Last Battle. You know he serves no point to the story or the world after it. Savior, martyr, messiah -- whatever. You know the end result is his death at an appointed time."

Um, no. No, I don't know that. That's the whole point of this discussion. I might be persuaded to believe that, but I'm open to other alternatives as well. However, I do feel a little bit insulted. Implying that people you disagree with are burying their face in the sand is not a useful argument.

Of course, you may very well be right. "To live you must die" may well be refer to reincarnation. Other arguments, including christiological parallels, may be bent in the ways RJ loves so much so that Rand dies. Maybe Rand really won't want to live. Etc, etc. Valid points all. But don't tell me I'm resisting just because I'm in denial!

28

Tamyrlin: 2005-10-25

Callandor, I agree, the idea that Nynaeve will resurrect him is ridiculous. However, the idea that Rand might make it through the Last Battle alive, has support.

And my point about resurrection and reincarnation is the point that Jordan does use such concepts liberally in his world.

Finally, no, I don't believe Jordan will leave it at Rand walking in to the Pit of Doom. But I can see him leaving us wondering if it is Rand's dead body in the boat, or if he still is alive. In other words, the world will never know if he survived.

29

silverwolf: 2005-10-25

I'd have to go with Tamyrlin on this one--Rand's status (i.e.: alive or dead) at the end of the books is likely one of the "loose ends" that RJ doesn't intend to tie up; it has no direct effect on the storyline, and the hints as to that status thus far have been balanced (i.e.: hints both that he will die and that he can live). For instance, the most quoted passage predicting Rand's death is the "his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul" prophecy, which in all reality could be fulfilled without Rand's death (he could simply bleed on it, Galad or Slayer could be killed there, etc.). The Aelfinn's response ("to live you must die") could simply refer to him living on in TAR after his death, or it could refer to "dying to self" (a phrase meaning to place others before yourself), to "die to the world" (do become removed from wordly events/for the world to think him dead), or any number of other things. It is only complicated by the fact that we don't have the original wording, either of the prophecies or of what the Aelfinn said, so even attempting a completely literal interpretation is unrealistic.

I guess the whole point of this is that we don't really have enough information to "prove" that Rand will live or that he will die; even messianic comparisons prove nothing, Callandor, as RJ has said he takes certain elements from historical and mythological figures (i.e.: only takes what he wants, not necessarily an entire personna or identity). To try to claim that evidence says, flat out, that Rand will live or will die is to make a blind and unfounded claim.

30

Callandor: 2005-10-26

**And my point about resurrection and reincarnation is the point that Jordan does use such concepts liberally in his world.**

No, it's other people's description of different events.

Rebirth is what Jordan uses for the natural course of a person being spun back into the world by the Wheel.

Resurrection I've never seen him use, except in isolated incidents to describe the Forsaken -- most the time he uses transmigration.

**Finally, no, I don't believe Jordan will leave it at Rand walking in to the Pit of Doom. But I can see him leaving us wondering if it is Rand's dead body in the boat, or if he still is alive. In other words, the world will never know if he survived.**

So, it will be a cop out, plain and simple. Rand's the main character. If you do not know what the hell happens to the main character of a story, whats the point? Did he live? Did he die? Did he hurt his foot? Did he have a hangover? The world may not know the exact details -- just like the world largely misconstrued or forgot Dumai's Wells -- but we will know.

**I'd have to go with Tamyrlin on this one--Rand's status (i.e.: alive or dead) at the end of the books is likely one of the "loose ends" that RJ doesn't intend to tie up; it has no direct effect on the storyline, and the hints as to that status thus far have been balanced (i.e.: hints both that he will die and that he can live).**

But he said he will wrap up all main story line events. Rand's fate -- is quite major. He will only leave minor details unresolved.

**For instance, the most quoted passage predicting Rand's death is the "his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul" prophecy, which in all reality could be fulfilled without Rand's death (he could simply bleed on it, Galad or Slayer could be killed there, etc.).**

No, the most quoted is the "twice to live and twice to die." (Before anyone points it out, it's refering to Rand being marked twice for both, not him dying and living twice).

**even messianic comparisons prove nothing, Callandor, as RJ has said he takes certain elements from historical and mythological figures (i.e.: only takes what he wants, not necessarily an entire personna or identity).**

Where am I drawing from a specific legend or myth? It's a universal that Rand is the archetype for (I quoted it above).

31

Traveller: 2005-10-26

"to live you must die"

Has anyone thought about living on in people's minds? in his sons and daughters? in the stories?

What I am trying to get at is that maybe the only way to win Tarmon Gaidon is for Rand to die; therefore the only way he can live on (in people's memories) is to die, because if he doesn't die to save everyone as his choice, then everyone and everything will die (including him) so he will no longer live, full stop.

Anyway, I am liking the idea Tamyrlin gave of not having an obvious ending. I definitely think that there will be a way of telling us he has a chance, i.e. 'An old man sat under a blossoming tree in the dwindling light of the sun, watching his grandchildren chase each other round the yard as he reminisced..." Yeah, really cheesy I know, but it could be way more subtle than that, just do you see roughly what I'm getting at?

Anyway, its just a thought.

32

Khazhul: 2005-10-26

I don't think we can safely say if Rand makes it to live after the Last Battle or not. We all know that the "Light" will triumph somehow, it's who lives afterwards and the manner in which it is won that keeps me reading.

The only great mystery left to us is whether the any of the boys live afterwards or not. I think RJ knows this and that is why it is so ambiguous.

33

Lauric: 2005-10-26

"Callandor, I agree, the idea that Nynaeve will resurrect him is ridiculous."

Why is it so ridiculous? She is always doing the impossible, thats one of the main points in the storyline. Stilling, even by the forsaken, was thought to be incurable, thus impossible. We've been told that Aes Sedai think they're all knowing, and repeatedly in the books have found out they really don't know anything.

I'm not arguing whether she will or not, i'm just saying that to call it ridiculous, in itself, is ridiculous. At least admit that it's a possibility.

34

Tamyrlin: 2005-10-26

Lauric, I think it is ridiculous to call it ridiculous that I said it was ridiculous.... ;)

I don't believe that a human being can resurrect another human being. Obviously, whatever the Wheel wills, it wills. So, if the Wheel wanted a soul to be able to return to a body, and wanted that body to regain life, well, I guess there is a .01% chance. However, I don't believe Nynaeve has God like powers. I think there are some things that cannot be healed, death being one of them. The greatest healers of all time, in the Age of Legends, couldn't heal death. Yes, I know, they didn't believe stilling could be healed, but I think that had to do with the very limited pool of study. In the case of death, I am sure Aes Sedai were often attempting to save those who had died and were always unsuccessful, even though they were able to bring individuals back from the very brink of death.

35

Anubis: 2005-10-26

Calling it rediculous is an opinion Lauric. Basically what Callandor and Tam are saying is that if Nynaeve ressurects Rand then the series will become ridiculous because of that.

So yeah, its a possibility, but it would be bad writing on RJs part, would be stupid, and would cause alot of people to be disgusted with the series. So its probably not going to happen.

36

therobotbadger: 2005-10-26

**We all know he serves no purpose after the Last Battle. What better way to exit the stage, than in a flash of glory? **

Saying a human being has no purpose after a cetain event is a little harsh, don't you think? Sure, he may not be a ta'veren anymore and may not be able to change the Pattern with a wink of his eye, but he can still serve a useful function to society.

And this "flash of glory" may seem great to you, but perhaps some don't like that idea. Perhaps some would like to finish their job quietly and fade away, letting the attention of others pass over them. Rand seems like one of those. Plus, he has the example of his adopted father to follow. Tam was a high-ranking soldier, which by recent book signing reports RJ has called "lucrative." He still chose to retire to his village and raise a family. I think given the choice Rand would do the same thing. And you have to admit that the prophecies provide, at the very least, some wiggle room about Rand's death. I mean, there is no prophecy that says "Rand al'Thor will die on this day at this place and his soul will not inhabit a body again until this many hundred years later." There is a huge likelyhood Rand will die, but most of us admit a chance he could live, and for most of us, that gives some reason to keep reading.

If RJ decides at the end of the series to kill Rand off, so be it. I think we can all live with that. But if he decides to let Rand live, I think it'll give many of us a little relief from this more-than-a-decade-long fixation on Rand's death. So while you may have it solidly in your mind that Rand must/will die and that's that, the rest of us (while certainly admitting the possiblity of his death) might not be so totally convinced.

37

Lauric: 2005-10-26

"Calling it rediculous is an opinion Lauric. Basically what Callandor and Tam are saying is that if Nynaeve ressurects Rand then the series will become ridiculous because of that."

I know what an opinion is Anubis, sorry if you took that as me disallowing Tam's opinion... not my intention. I was just meaning to say that it is not beyond the realm of possibility, which you also stated in your post.

I would think it's possible that Rand dies before the DO is sealed, Nyn revives him and they finish the seal. The backlash of completely closing the bore locks humanity's ability to touch the source thus defeating the "if they discover ressurection, then everyone is immortality" argument against Nyn reviving him.

Would this still 'destroy' the story for everyone? I don't think so, plus it follows the Rand-Jesus similarity... just a thought

38

haertchen: 2005-10-26

Luaric: "I would think it's possible that Rand dies before the DO is sealed, Nyn revives him and they finish the seal. The backlash of completely closing the bore locks humanity's ability to touch the source thus defeating the 'if they discover ressurection, then everyone is immortality' argument against Nyn reviving him."

Could it also be possible that reality itself will be weakened near/during the last battle, allowing something that normally wouldn't be possible? Or something special about Rand? Or a combination of both? It's hard to know.

39

Anubis: 2005-10-26

**Would this still 'destroy' the story for everyone? I don't think so, plus it follows the Rand-Jesus similarity... just a thought**

I wouldnt like it.... Have you checked out the Rand and Morridin merging theory on the message boards? It was on theoryland a long time ago but got mostly laughed at cus it was a long shot, but with KoD it looks like it might pay off.

40

Callandor: 2005-10-26

**Why is it so ridiculous? She is always doing the impossible, thats one of the main points in the storyline. Stilling, even by the forsaken, was thought to be incurable, thus impossible. We've been told that Aes Sedai think they're all knowing, and repeatedly in the books have found out they really don't know anything.**

Healing death is changing the destiny of the person. No one inside and of the Pattern can change the course of destiny.

That, and if you actually think about it, RJ would then be making people in Randland immortals as long as they have an Aes Sedai around.

**At least admit that it's a possibility.**

No, it's not. A mystical Healing weave out of absolutely no where is completely impossible.

You want to say Rand comes back from Balefiring his killer -- sure go ahead, we've seen an example of that. But a Healing weave out of nowhere, and we know is impossible? Get a grip.

**Saying a human being has no purpose after a cetain event is a little harsh, don't you think? Sure, he may not be a ta'veren anymore and may not be able to change the Pattern with a wink of his eye, but he can still serve a useful function to society.**

No, it's not harsh.

Rand's destiny is to fight the Last Battle. Once he's done this, what is left for him to do? Nothing. No point for him to be around at all.

**And this "flash of glory" may seem great to you, but perhaps some don't like that idea. Perhaps some would like to finish their job quietly and fade away, letting the attention of others pass over them. Rand seems like one of those.**

Rand knows better than anyone he cannot just disappear.

**Tam was a high-ranking soldier, which by recent book signing reports RJ has called "lucrative." He still chose to retire to his village and raise a family. I think given the choice Rand would do the same thing.**

Here's the thing you are missing: Rand does not have a choice. It's his destiny to fight the Last Battle. He's fated to do it. We know he does, and we know the Light wins.

**And you have to admit that the prophecies provide, at the very least, some wiggle room about Rand's death.**

Nope. "Twice to live and twice to die."

**There is a huge likelyhood Rand will die, but most of us admit a chance he could live, and for most of us, that gives some reason to keep reading.

If RJ decides at the end of the series to kill Rand off, so be it. I think we can all live with that. But if he decides to let Rand live, I think it'll give many of us a little relief from this more-than-a-decade-long fixation on Rand's death. So while you may have it solidly in your mind that Rand must/will die and that's that, the rest of us (while certainly admitting the possiblity of his death) might not be so totally convinced.**

1. We know Rand will die.

2. Rand is you know propheicized to die.

3. Does no one realize there is a price to victory?

**I would think it's possible that Rand dies before the DO is sealed, Nyn revives him and they finish the seal. The backlash of completely closing the bore locks humanity's ability to touch the source thus defeating the "if they discover ressurection, then everyone is immortality" argument against Nyn reviving him.**

**Would this still 'destroy' the story for everyone?**

Yes.

41

Traveller: 2005-10-27

I agree that it would make people scream if Nynaeve brought Rand back from the dead, so I don't think Jordan will do it, but I think that if Rand somehow fakes his death and manages to live on, she will definitely be majorly involved, just for the irony of when Elayne thinks that Nynaeve will never be satisfied until she has healed someone three days dead. So... yeah.

42

haertchen: 2005-10-27

"I agree that it would make people scream if Nynaeve brought Rand back from the dead"

Given that things are going to be a little bit confused anyway when this alleged event would take place, I'm not sure anyone would even notice.

BTW, Callandor, I see you're still giving no leeway whatsoever to something we know very little about. We know you think Rand is going to die, but would you please rebut points using evidence instead of restating your opinion three times as though it becomes more valid the more often you say it.

Also, the one bit of evidence you do use may actually be backwards: "Twice to live and twice to die," *could* mean Rand's going to live twice and die twice . . .

Of course, the context makes that interpretation less likely (the twice refers to the marks, not necessarily how often he lives/dies), but it's prophecy---it's hard to know.

43

silverwolf: 2005-10-28

Even the "Twice to live, and Twice to die" quote really doesn't prove that Rand must die--it's ambiguous enough to be interpreted different ways. For example, it could simply refer to his life as the Dragon (i.e.: public personna), which began with the battle at Falme and will end at Shayol Ghul in the Last Battle--as you say, the Dragon has no purpose after TG is finished. However, Rand still has a purpose--simply the same purpose as any other random person (raise a family, live, etc.). Simply the grandiose purpose that was prophesied is fulfilled--not the everyday purposes in life.

Although I am reluctant to say that anything is impossible (especially in a fantasy series), I highly doubt that Nynaeve will heal death. Quite aside from the plot-suicide if RJ includes such an event, it is likely that any attempt to heal death would merely heal the physical body without "reattaching" the soul (death results in a seperation between the physical body and the soul--as in the case of the forsaken we have seen transmigrated--and any attempt to heal death would likely create a soulless vessel like Trayal, the Ogier in TGH, or like the gray men).

44

Tristin: 2005-10-28

I agree Nynaeve is not going to bring him back, but Callandor, when you say he doesn't have a choice I think that is very wrong. I think the whole thing is going to come down to his choice...remember that moment with his his mother in TEOTW? The whole thing has always been about Rand joining "the darkside." He'd have to have some seriously good reasons for doing that I imagine, but the choice will be presented to him he will either join and the DO will break the pattern, wheel, and the circularity of time...or he will refuse the DO and seal the bore.

45

Callandor: 2005-10-28

**Also, the one bit of evidence you do use may actually be backwards: "Twice to live and twice to die," *could* mean Rand's going to live twice and die twice...**

No, it doesn't.

**Twice and twice shall he be marked, twice to live, and twice to die,

Once the heron to set his path.

Twice the heron, to name him true.

Once the Dragon for remembrance lost.

Twice the Dragon for the price he must pay.**

Twice marked to live (the Dragon being shown); twice marked to die.

**Of course, the context makes that interpretation less likely (the twice refers to the marks, not necessarily how often he lives/dies), but it's prophecy---it's hard to know.**

It's only really difficult if you hold to the notion that Rand will live.

It says flat out that Rand will die. Where is the difficulty here?

46

mommymoose: 2005-10-29

Quote:

"Finally, no, I don't believe Jordan will leave it at Rand walking in to the Pit of Doom. But I can see him leaving us wondering if it is Rand's dead body in the boat, or if he still is alive. In other words, the world will never know if he survived."

If you even SUGGEST that RJ do a Steven King on us ............

47

Tymathee: 2005-10-30

I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents. In regards to Nynaeve healing death, I seem to remember that Nynaeve has thought about the healing of Rand's wounds in a few of the books. I have no exact quotes to supply, but I'm sure she has thought to herself that ANYTHING short of death, even if there's the faintest spark of life, can be healed. Nynaeve, in my opinion, is going to do something monumental in the last book...just my opinion. Yes, she participated in cleansing the taint...but her forte' has always been healing, and I think there's a strong possibility she'll be involved in healing Rand's wound in his side. Although I'm dubious about Semirhage being "captured" by Rand's camp, it does lend some credence that Candsuane or Nynaeve (who had already captured and extolled information from one other Forsaken--Moggie!) will actually get info from the queen of healing herself and that will lead to saving Rand's life.

48

haertchen: 2005-10-31

Callandor: I admit that my choice of examples wasn't the best evidence in favor of something odd happening with Rand's death. I was just trying to make a point about your use of evidence; that wasn't a serious attempt to further the theory.

Although I would be surprised if you could make a complete exegesis of the text as it currently stands with no contradictions. If it predicts his death, what does the bit about life mean? "Twice to live" clearly parallels "twice to die" but what is(are) the incident(s) that refer to living? He was born well before he had the marks.

49

Callandor: 2005-11-01

**If it predicts his death, what does the bit about life mean? "Twice to live" clearly parallels "twice to die" but what is(are) the incident(s) that refer to living? He was born well before he had the marks.**

As I said, the Dragon. Rand recieved his two herons before he proclaimed himself. The second one was made in the event that has become known as his proclimation. At that point the Dragon was "brought to life" so to speak.

50

haertchen: 2005-11-01

"As I said, the Dragon. Rand recieved his two herons before he proclaimed himself. The second one was made in the event that has become known as his proclimation. At that point the Dragon was "brought to life" so to speak."

If we're allowed to do this, then the "death" could just as easily be "stopping being the dragon," e.g. returning to a normal person (well, not really normal. I think that's one of your better points really).

With your interpretation, I stand by my statement that the prophecies are too difficult to be firmly nailed down on this point. I think there's wiggle room still, on both sides.

51

Callandor: 2005-11-01

**If we're allowed to do this, then the "death" could just as easily be "stopping being the dragon," e.g. returning to a normal person (well, not really normal. I think that's one of your better points really).**

How do you "stop being the Dragon?" Sure -- Rand stops being the Dragon. He stops, because he's dead. Rand is dead. The Dragon Reborn is dead. Hence, to die. Where is the difficulty here with simply admitting "Yes, Rand will die"?

52

Tristin: 2005-11-02

heh this is out there but what if the twice to live does refer to him being marked as the dragon, the dragons and the herons, and twice to die is the removal of them, the burnt off hand and the severed hand. in both cases the heron and head of the dragon is being removed from his body...this could be his path to death or whatever.

53

Tristin: 2005-11-02

Also no one has commented on the choice thing, i'm particularly interested in what Callandor and Tam think. It seems to me like the whole thing is orchestrated toward him choosing or not choosing to side with the DO. Is it the case that the DO can only break the wheel if he Rand chooses to join up with the Dark One? I'm sure somewhere that Ishmael points out when he is talking about all the battles in the past between himself and the dragon (we need a quotemaster here) that the Dragon has sometimes sided with the DO...I'm curious as to how the prison would be sealed in such a case? Also how does that reflect the circularity of time if he sometimes makes a wheel-alterring choice like that?

54

die to live: 2005-11-02

Alivia will help Rand live. My take is that with Rand dead, LTT will seperate from Rand. This will allow LTT's soul to enter TAR like the rest of the heros of the Horn. Alivia will bring him back.

55

Tristin: 2005-11-02

i think he means that he will stop being taveren, not particularly stop being the dragon.

p.s. congrats on post 2222 Callandor.

56

haertchen: 2005-11-02

"How do you 'stop being the Dragon?'"

Not being ta'veren and resposible for the fate of the world would be a pretty good definition, and it's even better if he fades from public view and isn't well-known any more (after all, how many people know what he actually looks like?). A lot like what Rand's situation was before the story began, in complete analogy to his being

"born" by having the pattern publicy declare his dragon-ness.

"Sure -- Rand stops being the Dragon. He stops, because he's dead. Rand is dead. The Dragon Reborn is dead. Hence, to die. Where is the difficulty here with simply admitting 'Yes, Rand will die'?"

Because I don't know Rand will die (or at least die permanently), that's why! Because you've yet to make an absolutely airtight case, either emotionally or logically. Can we please return to discussing the evidence?

57

haertchen: 2005-11-02

"I'm sure somewhere that Ishmael points out when he is talking about all the battles in the past between himself and the dragon (we need a quotemaster here) that the Dragon has sometimes sided with the DO...I'm curious as to how the prison would be sealed in such a case?"

I remember the quote. I know the quotemasters will be able to find it, but I also think that RJ has strongly implied that Ishamael was probably lieing there. Personally, I suspect that Rand has the right of it; that he has never willingly turned to the Dark One. If he was turned, it seems likely he was turned by force, but I'm not certain all the quotes attributed to RJ on that point are clear...

58

failefan: 2005-11-02

Still reading through Knife of Dreams and came to this conclusion (and maybe you have too)...

Alivia will help to kill Rand, but instead of a physical death, he will die emotionally--the breaking of his hardened heart. In Ch. 13 of The Path of Daggers, Rand says that he is steel. Later in Ch. 24 he says that his heart is iron. And in Ch. 25 of Winter's Heart, Cadsuane says, "He is turning into a stone...and if he doesn't relearn that he's human, winning the Last Battle may not be much better than losing." So where's this going? Right here. In Ch. 18 of Knife of Dreams, Min says, "Stone cracks from a hard enough blow. Steel shatters. The oak fights the wind and breaks. The willow bends where it must and survives."

My guess is that Alivia dies while saving Rand's life. His stony heart shatters, fulfilling what the Aelfinn said, "To live, you must die." Hope this helps to lead to another idea.

59

Tristin: 2005-11-03

I'm curious as to how Min's vision could be of Alivia helping Rand die. How could she distinguish between helping and killing if she saw him get balefired or something? Was it an aura? those are usually unclear...i'm just not sure how this vision works...anyways an emotional death would be crap...surely min could have seen this.

60

haertchen: 2005-11-03

She probably saw an aura---and with the aura probably came words. This is guesswork, but when she saw that all the sisters would serve Rand, all in their own way, it seems that something similar to this happened.

That's why we can trust the distinction, though. In a sense they aren't Min's words; they're the pattern's words (or whatever Min does...)

61

JakOShadows: 2005-11-03

I've read over the replies and I don't have a clear idea whether he lives or dies. But Callandor, there is a possibility of him living. He doesn't have to die. You are right he won't have a purpose, but he could still live a quiet life in seclusion or something like that. He could even go to the land of the madmen, and since there is no more taint manage to survive and lead a quiet life. And no one would know who he is. So it is completely possible. And as to Alivia helping Rand die, I believe it could be a mercy killing, to stop the breaking or him going crazy somehow. But the fact is we don't know. And I think it is a good thing it is not a foregone conclusion. I would like to think he can live, and he has even thought the same, but if he dies so be it. As Callandor said, he is not needed. But for sure, there is room for interpretation. I think that's what makes RJ so good, because he doesn't just rely on one myth or legend, so it makes it unpredictable.

And it seems like Min is being stubborn about admitting he might die too, I mean she has to know it would be hard to manage when he's going to be doing the bulk of the work at the sealing. And it seems like she thinks she can force him to live through her being stubborn which I don't think will work. That is exactly what Rand is afraid of. He just can't seem to say no to her. I wouldn't be surprised if she followed him to the LB. This could also have a big effect on events.

62

Lauric: 2005-11-03

*** "I'm sure somewhere that Ishmael points out when he is talking about all the battles in the past between himself and the dragon (we need a quotemaster here) that the Dragon has sometimes sided with the DO...I'm curious as to how the prison would be sealed in such a case?"

I remember the quote. I know the quotemasters will be able to find it, but I also think that RJ has strongly implied that Ishamael was probably lieing there. Personally, I suspect that Rand has the right of it; that he has never willingly turned to the Dark One. If he was turned, it seems likely he was turned by force, but I'm not certain all the quotes attributed to RJ on that point are clear... ***

I can't find the exact quote at the moment, but I definately remember it was something along the lines of "It's freakin Ishamael! Of course you can't just believe everything he says"

63

Callandor: 2005-11-03

**It seems to me like the whole thing is orchestrated toward him choosing or not choosing to side with the DO. Is it the case that the DO can only break the wheel if he Rand chooses to join up with the Dark One?**

More than likely it's just that without the Dragon, or whoever is facilitating the Dragon role, the Dark One will most likely easily crush whatever if any resistance.

**I'm sure somewhere that Ishmael points out when he is talking about all the battles in the past between himself and the dragon (we need a quotemaster here) that the Dragon has sometimes sided with the DO...I'm curious as to how the prison would be sealed in such a case? Also how does that reflect the circularity of time if he sometimes makes a wheel-alterring choice like that?**

To quote RJ's own words: "You believed Ishamael?"

He was lying/just making up crap. The Dragon has never turned.

**Alivia will help Rand live. My take is that with Rand dead, LTT will seperate from Rand. This will allow LTT's soul to enter TAR like the rest of the heros of the Horn. Alivia will bring him back.**

But it's the same soul. Rand and Lews Therin have one soul -- just two personalities.

**Not being ta'veren and resposible for the fate of the world would be a pretty good definition, and it's even better if he fades from public view and isn't well-known any more (after all, how many people know what he actually looks like?). A lot like what Rand's situation was before the story began, in complete analogy to his being**

Point you're missing here is how does he just "stop" being who he is?

As long as Rand is alive there will always be people willing to kill him or put him on a pedistal.

Not to mention the way most ta'veren stop being ta'veren -- they die.

Rand stops being the Dragon once he dies, quite easily.

**Because I don't know Rand will die (or at least die permanently), that's why!**

No, because you refuse to accept it. Again, "twice to live, twice to die."

**Because you've yet to make an absolutely airtight case, either emotionally or logically.**

How can this be more airtight?

**My guess is that Alivia dies while saving Rand's life. His stony heart shatters, fulfilling what the Aelfinn said, "To live, you must die." Hope this helps to lead to another idea.**

Why would Alivia shatter his heart? If it wasn't for Rand knowing she was important to helping him die, I doubt he would care a lick about her.

Now, if Min died....

** How could she distinguish between helping and killing if she saw him get balefired or something?**

If she knows the viewing, she knows the wording to give as well.

**But Callandor, there is a possibility of him living. He doesn't have to die.**

Doesn't have to as far as we know (IE: his death as far as we know isn't the great big thing that's needed to win the Last Battle), no, but he will die.

**You are right he won't have a purpose, but he could still live a quiet life in seclusion or something like that.**

Again, no matter what Rand does, there will always be people who want to kill him or praise him as the Creator.

Not to mention being half mad.

Not to mention now blind (or half blind whatever it is).

Not to mention he could still suffer the rotting disease.

Not to mention he would have to abandon the women he loves and any possible lives with them.

Some fate.

And, it known he will die.

**He could even go to the land of the madmen, and since there is no more taint manage to survive and lead a quiet life.**

No taint doesn't mean they will turn around and stop gentling their male channelers. Look at how the Seanchan, Aiel, and White Tower still act towards male channelers.

**I would like to think he can live, and he has even thought the same, but if he dies so be it.**

That is essentially what this all is. We know that he will die, but Jordan is putting red herrings in so people will think it's a surprise. But, again, we know he will die.

64

jeop: 2005-11-04

I think that everyone is skipping a critical part of the prophecy. In The Great Hunt Thom tells rand part of The Karaethon Cycle:

"Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.

Once for mourning, once for birth.

Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow."

The day dawns twice! one for death and once for birth. This seems to support the Balefire-back-to-life theory, although who knows how Alivia will have anything to do with it.

65

JakOShadows: 2005-11-04

The birth could also be the the birth of the twins that signify the start of the next age too. So its not only Rand's events that are important there, not to mention it would be more likely to say rebirth in that case.

Callandor:

I know you are adamant that Rand must die, but it is possible that he will live. Because at the rate he's going, I don't think he'll be recognizeable to most people, so how would they know who to kill? All I'm saying is that it is remotely possible. You don't want to even admit that. And also the fact that he asked how to survive the last battle, and they didn't say he couldn't. So as you said, there is some question as to whether he'll die or survive the LB. Otherwise RJ would not be a good writer.

66

haertchen: 2005-11-04

Callandor, I am going to have to leave this thread. I just don't have the time or inclination to keep going. I just want to state for the record that I do not know what will happen to Rand. I do not think we have enough evidence to prove anything, either way. And I like the idea of something unusual happening with his death, largely due to the christiological parallels. However, I recognize that those could easily be changed in unexpected ways.

I just wanted to respond to your last post a little to show others on this thread why I dislike discussing this with you, and why I feel you have not "won" the argument.

**Point you're missing here is how does he just "stop" being who he is?**

The same way he "started." You're forgetting the context, Callandor, which is a big problem in this discussion. I asked you to explain (in detail) the prophesy you're still relying on to prove that Rand will die, and you used a methaphorical meaning for birth, so I countered with a methaphorical meaning for death. You then refused (as here) to accept that meaning, treating it as though it were my interpretation---which it isn't. It's the analogue to your explanation. You're using a double standard on this point; this is unnacceptable.

**As long as Rand is alive there will always be people willing to kill him or put him on a pedistal.**

In this you refuse to note my very point about how few people actually know what he looks like. Especially if he leaves the country like other people suggested. Refusing to even address these issues, but simply state the opposite without doubt, is not logic.

**Not to mention the way most ta'veren stop being ta'veren -- they die.**

Evidence? Besides, the key word is most. That has no bearing on individual cases.

** **Because I don't know Rand will die (or at least die permanently), that's why!**

No, because you refuse to accept it. Again, "twice to live, twice to die."**

Again: telling me I'm just being stupid because I don't agree is insulting. That's a large part of why I'm leaving. And note that you can't explain the "twice to live" bit without having trouble with "twice to die."

** **Because you've yet to make an absolutely airtight case, either emotionally or logically.**

How can this be more airtight?**

More assuming that my objections have no value.

**Not to mention being half mad.

Not to mention now blind (or half blind whatever it is).**

These are your best points, but refusing to think that they might be healed is---strange.

**Not to mention he could still suffer the rotting disease.**

Certainly not. The taint is gone. You're stretching here, big man. And even so, he could be healed.

**Not to mention he would have to abandon the women he loves and any possible lives with them.**

And you ignore all evidence that the three woman go with him. Can't you see you've got one scenario so ingrained in your mind, you can't considere alternatives?

** **He could even go to the land of the madmen, and since there is no more taint manage to survive and lead a quiet life.**

No taint doesn't mean they will turn around and stop gentling their male channelers. Look at how the Seanchan, Aiel, and White Tower still act towards male channelers.**

Complete and utter non-sequiter. The whole point is that he leaves. They can't get at him any more. He is "somewhere else." Again, you're limiting the scenarios to what you've already seen in your own head.

**That is essentially what this all is. We know that he will die, but Jordan is putting red herrings in so people will think it's a surprise. But, again, we know he will die.**

That says it all. You think you already know what will happen; all evidence to the contrary must be ignored, because it's a red herring. The thing about red herrings is that they look like the real thing.

67

PrincessofRavens: 2005-11-04

The "twice to live, twice to die" doesn't neccesarily mean that he HAS to die at the last battle, just that he - like everybody else will die sometime.

I'm not really sure what will happen. Rand dying isn't a bad end, not if Min, Elayne and Avi lives and his children can live on...

68

Callandor: 2005-11-04

**I know you are adamant that Rand must die, but it is possible that he will live. Because at the rate he's going, I don't think he'll be recognizeable to most people, so how would they know who to kill?**

1. No, again, I've said it many times and quoted it. Rand dies. Period.

2. Rand's a 6'6, blue/gray eyed, red/gold hair, strongly built man, now with one hand and one hand with a heron on it, and one and a half/one and a quarter dragons on his forarms. Name one other person in the world that has those physical characteristics.

**And also the fact that he asked how to survive the last battle, and they didn't say he couldn't. So as you said, there is some question as to whether he'll die or survive the LB. Otherwise RJ would not be a good writer.**

1. The Aelfinn told him that he must die. That's not living there.

2. You misinterpret what I said. I said Jordan is sprinkling doubt around for readers who can't grasp certain concepts. Min says Rand doesn't have to die -- tough crap, we know he does.

**In this you refuse to note my very point about how few people actually know what he looks like.**

Are you completely forgetting the mass of people that saw him at Falme, and his image projected in Saldaea and Tear? Or, the mass of paintings that were a near copy of Rand's features since the end of The Great Hunt?

**Refusing to even address these issues, but simply state the opposite without doubt, is not logic.**

When I have I refused to address this issue, here?

I stated quite simply:

"As long as Rand is alive there will always be people willing to kill him or put him on a pedistal."

**Evidence? Besides, the key word is most. That has no bearing on individual cases.**

I only use most because we aren't aware of all the ta'veren. The ones that we know of: all.

**These are your best points, but refusing to think that they might be healed is---strange.**

Ah, yes, because madness will always be Healed... except we've never seen one single case of it.

**Certainly not. The taint is gone. You're stretching here, big man. And even so, he could be healed.**

The taint remains in all the channelers. It's still there. The only reason I said "could" is because it might not work just by what has effected Rand.

But if it does, Rand's screwed beyond belief.

**And you ignore all evidence that the three woman go with him. Can't you see you've got one scenario so ingrained in your mind, you can't considere alternatives?**

My entire point is that he would be FORCED to leave the women he loves behind. The problem you fail to address or even understand at all, is that it would destroy Rand, and that's believing that the girls would even agree to it.

**Complete and utter non-sequiter. The whole point is that he leaves. They can't get at him any more. He is "somewhere else." Again, you're limiting the scenarios to what you've already seen in your own head.**

You're trying to ignore a big problem -- RAND IS A MALE CHANNELER. Women have quite a dislike for male channelers in that region, and most of the ones people bring to mind. Again, you say I'm blinding myself to options, and the problem is you fail to see that those are simply NOT options.

We know Rand will die. We know this from a source that is never werong. I think I know the ending? Yeah, because RJ told us the ending. Rand will die. It's the same reason why we don't worry about the Dark One breaking free this Age -- we know he doesn't. We know the Light wins.

69

failefan: 2005-11-04

OK Callandor, I'll explain myself better.

*Why would Alivia shatter his heart? If it wasn't for Rand knowing she was important to helping him die, I doubt he would care a lick about her.*

To put you at ease, I'm not saying that Rand isn't going to die at the Last Battle. But I'm focusing on Min's viewing of Alivia helping Rand to die and the answer the Aelfinn gave to Rand for him to win the Last Battle and survive. Rand and Min think that her viewing relates to Rand's physical death. But Min's viewing and the Aelfinns' answer doesn't specify what type of death, but rather that he must/will die. And the term, die, doesn't always pertain to the physical death of the body. I'm sure that you've heard someone say something like, "Well, I used to love, but I died to that a long time ago," or, "I used to be that person, but he died..," etc. And Rand has steadily become harder and harder. He says himself that his heart is iron. Even LTT says that Rand is harder than he ever was. But Rand will have to soften. If not, Cadsuane says, "...and if he doesn't relearn that he's human, winning the Last Battle may not be much better than losing." And that's where I think Alivia plays her part in Min's viewing. I think that she'll die, and her name on Rand's list of dead women will be the one to break him, to help him die to his iron heart.

And I'm not saying that I'm right, rather, that's just my guess.

70

Callandor: 2005-11-06

**But Min's viewing and the Aelfinns' answer doesn't specify what type of death, but rather that he must/will die. And the term, die, doesn't always pertain to the physical death of the body.**

Only when you're trying to convince yourself of something that won't happen.

** I think that she'll die, and her name on Rand's list of dead women will be the one to break him, to help him die to his iron heart.**

That's great, but it doesn't address my point at all.

Why would Rand give a crap about Alivia? If it wasn't for Min's viewing about her importance to Rand, he wouldn't care about her at all. So, why would she of all people be the one to "break" Rand's heart? Why not Moiraine? Why not Min? Elayne? Aviendha? Friggin Nynaeve is more important to Rand than Alivia.

71

Khazhul: 2005-11-07

Callandor, you won’t even acknowledge the possibility that Rand might live after the last battle? I can understand believing that he won’t but to completely rule it out is very narrow-minded, especially in a fantasy series.

**1. No, again, I've said it many times and quoted it. Rand dies. Period.**

**1. The Aelfinn told him that he must die. That's not living there.**

**We know Rand will die. We know this from a source that is never werong. I think I know the ending? Yeah, because RJ told us the ending. Rand will die**

Didn’t the Aelfinn also tell Mat that he was going to die and live again? I’m writing this at work so I don’t have my books but I do seem to remember that and there being big debates here about which incident constituted him as dying (hanging, Rahvin’s attack). I see no reason it couldn’t work for Rand like it did for Mat considering they were told similar things by the same source. Mat = to die and live again, Rand = to live you must die or something like that.

**2. You misinterpret what I said. I said Jordan is sprinkling doubt around for readers who can't grasp certain concepts. Min says Rand doesn't have to die -- tough crap, we know he does.**

Yes, we know through some interpretation that he has to die, but just like Mat he might be brought back. I’m not talking about healing death, nor am I saying it will be some interpretation of what death is. I’m not ruling those out either. I give them a very low percentage of actually happening but I do not completely discount them either. Someone balefiring his killer seems to be my favorite way for him to survive. Maybe if the shadow thinks he’s dead for that short span, he can finish what he needs to unhindered in the last battle?

**"As long as Rand is alive there will always be people willing to kill him or put him on a pedistal."**

So what? He lives on a pedestal just like real people do all the time. Does everyone who is too famous, popular, and/or hated have to die? If you say this to discount the fact that he can retire as a farmer, I agree with you. Hell, his relationship to Elayne will make that one tough. If you say this is a reason he must die? Well that is just a silly argument. Where could Rand go to retire? How about Ruidean? He would still be the Car’a’carn and the waste and Aiel should be enough to offer some kind of protection/safety.

**I only use most because we aren't aware of all the ta'veren. The ones that we know of: all.**

Of course they all died, the only ones we know of are far in the past with Hawkwing being the last one I can think of. However, did they all die at the exact moment of completing the task for which they were born to do? There is no way to tell that. Do we even know that the last battle is Rands, Mats, or Perrins last task? By this logic, do you believe they all will die during or right after the last battle?

**Ah, yes, because madness will always be Healed... except we've never seen one single case of it.**

We’ve never seen stilling being healed before Nynaeve and it is said that ANYTHING can be healed short of death. Do I think it will be healed, no, but I admit it could be a possibility.

**The taint remains in all the channelers. It's still there. The only reason I said "could" is because it might not work just by what has effected Rand.**

The taint doesn’t remain, the damage does. What madness has affected them is still there. So Rand is living with what has already been done to him, whatever madness he has now he is living with. It’s not going to get worse or better (unless the healing theory is true) but what he CAN do is learn to cope with it better than he has already done. Either way, he is coping with it now and seems to find happiness with the three girls when he is with them and not thinking about his monumental task.

**You're trying to ignore a big problem -- RAND IS A MALE CHANNELER. Women have quite a dislike for male channelers in that region, and most of the ones people bring to mind. Again, you say I'm blinding myself to options, and the problem is you fail to see that those are simply NOT options.**

For women who have a huge dislike of male channelers they sure do plan on bonding quite a few of them. The ones that have bonded or been bonded seem to be changing their minds very quickly about their dislike and fear. The framework for reinstating male channelers back into the system and acceptance is glaringly obvious now. There are a few (dreams/viewing/foretellings?) that more than suggest this is true. By your logic, no male channelers will be tolerated to live after the last battle.

In summary, you may not believe he will live through your interpretation of events but you can’t rule out the possibility completely. Yes we know the light is going to win, that is not a great mystery for us. That leaves ME with two mysteries: how are they going to win and who survives to live on at least for a while.

72

Callandor: 2005-11-08

**Didn’t the Aelfinn also tell Mat that he was going to die and live again? I’m writing this at work so I don’t have my books but I do seem to remember that and there being big debates here about which incident constituted him as dying (hanging, Rahvin’s attack). I see no reason it couldn’t work for Rand like it did for Mat considering they were told similar things by the same source. Mat = to die and live again, Rand = to live you must die or something like that.**

Mat's death and brought back to life was fulfilled by the balefiring of Rahvin; Jordan's said that many a time.

**Yes, we know through some interpretation that he has to die, but just like Mat he might be brought back.**

Because Jordan simply cannot kill a character off? We know Rand dies. To live you must die -- you die, but your soul lives on to be reborn again and again. Twice to live and twice to die (twice being the number of times marked, again) -- no bringing back there.

**So what? He lives on a pedestal just like real people do all the time.**

So, the problem is he can't just walk off into the sunset and be unknown. That's the point with Rand. Who he is makes it impossible for him to just "go away" without actually dying.

**If you say this to discount the fact that he can retire as a farmer, I agree with you.**

I did, above in the part you quoted and above that as well.

**Where could Rand go to retire? How about Ruidean? He would still be the Car’a’carn and the waste and Aiel should be enough to offer some kind of protection/safety.**

There are Darkfriends amongst the Aiel as well. If you think all the Aiel are going to be nice and secretive to him, remember that people are people no matter where they are and some people just want nothing but to be put ahead by any means necessary (I don't have to point to Sevanna do I?).

If Rand were to fake his death, no one could know he was alive. He'd have to go to a place where there were absolutely no people, and even that is hardly a measure of success (remember, there still is tel'aran'rhiod and more than likely ta'veren effects).

**Do we even know that the last battle is Rands, Mats, or Perrins last task? By this logic, do you believe they all will die during or right after the last battle?**

I have a slightly better hope for Mat, but that's only because I like him more than Rand (but Rand is still great).

Mat and Perrin's last task can easily be something else -- the Last Battle is Rand's for sure. What else is the Dragon Reborn going to do?

**We’ve never seen stilling being healed before Nynaeve and it is said that ANYTHING can be healed short of death. Do I think it will be healed, no, but I admit it could be a possibility.**

Quit quoting logical fallacies at me with the "We've never seen it so it's perfectly logical." I'll put it this way:

**Q: What are limits of TP? When did we see it used before?

A: Access to the TP is a matter of wanting it and the dark one letting you. NOT black cords. In Prologue to EotW we saw TP to heal insanity. The OP cannot be used to heal insanity.TP used at SG will fry you instantly.**

Feel better?

**The taint doesn’t remain, the damage does. What madness has affected them is still there.**

You can argue it either way -- but in any case Rand will remain mad as a loon.

**For women who have a huge dislike of male channelers they sure do plan on bonding quite a few of them.**

Yes, I take it you mean the six Tower Aes Sedai (who are in complete secrecy I should point out), or Cadsuane's Aes Sedai which were little more than leverage to control them, or the rebels who seek to only use male channelers to pump up their circles?

These are needs and they're grasping at branches -- not to mention they're still FAR in the minority (hopefully it will get better).

However, the arguement was about Rand seeking refuge elsewhere than Randland proper. The Land of Madmen was suggested, and again, women gentle male channelers that they can find there. Seanchan is the same, only they kill their male channelers. Rand would pretty much already have been killed in Shara by now. Randland and the Aiel know Rand too much for him to hide in, if he can anywhere in the world.

**The ones that have bonded or been bonded seem to be changing their minds very quickly about their dislike and fear.**

All have their reasons for it. None of them is for the joy of it.

**The framework for reinstating male channelers back into the system and acceptance is glaringly obvious now.**

No kidding, but a blueprint isn't a building.

**By your logic, no male channelers will be tolerated to live after the last battle.**

In the Land of Madmen and Seanchan (if you followed the arguement not just took my comments out of context), they still will be.

**In summary, you may not believe he will live through your interpretation of events but you can’t rule out the possibility completely.**

I've quoted the evidence many a time now. Rand's dead as a doornail.

**Yes we know the light is going to win, that is not a great mystery for us. That leaves ME with two mysteries: how are they going to win and who survives to live on at least for a while.**

To deal with your non sequitur I can only say two things:

1. If you know and can understand and follow the logic of why the Light wins, this shouldn't be any difficulty for you.

2. It is a mystery how they win and who lives and dies -- except we know at least Rand dies for sure.

73

Khazhul: 2005-11-08

**Mat's death and brought back to life was fulfilled by the balefiring of Rahvin; Jordan's said that many a time.**

Yes, I wasn’t asking or caring which incident it was. That wasn’t the point, which it seems you missed. Mat was told he was going to die and live again. Balefiring brought him back. He died yet he is still alive. Why didn’t the Finn mean for Mat to be reborn again and again? Why is that interpretation only for Rand? Mat died, dead as a doornail and yet he is still alive. According to your logic, Mat should have interpreted his death as meaning he was going to live again and again according to the Wheels needs.

**Yes, we know through some interpretation that he has to die, but just like Mat he might be brought back.**

**Because Jordan simply cannot kill a character off? We know Rand dies. To live you must die -- you die, but your soul lives on to be reborn again and again. Twice to live and twice to die (twice being the number of times marked, again) -- no bringing back there.**

I’m not saying Rand won’t die at or after the last battle. Jordan can absolutely kill off Rand. What I am saying is you have not convinced me that there is no possible way for him to die then live again with a possible balefiring thing that happened to Mat. I’m 50/50 and not really caring which way it goes. You mention “twice to live and twice to die” and I’m not exactly sure what that means. Is it an LTT reference and the fact Rand is reborn? To take it more literally and in context of what the finn say about his only chance to live is to die, I would say he was born (first life), dies at last battle (first death), brought back to life somehow (second life), dies of old age or whatever after the last battle (second death).

**So, the problem is he can't just walk off into the sunset and be unknown. That's the point with Rand. Who he is makes it impossible for him to just "go away" without actually dying.**

**There are Darkfriends amongst the Aiel as well. If you think all the Aiel are going to be nice and secretive to him, remember that people are people no matter where they are and some people just want nothing but to be put ahead by any means necessary (I don't have to point to Sevanna do I?).**

Well then how does anyone live? Every leader is fated to die that way. Every lord, lady, king, council members, anyone who has anyone under them that is ruthless enough to kill for that position which is everyone in power since there are darkfriends out there. Rand may eventually die that way, but because that is a strong possibility isn’t a reason he dies at the last battle though.

**Mat and Perrin's last task can easily be something else -- the Last Battle is Rand's for sure. What else is the Dragon Reborn going to do?**

I’ll answer that with a fourth age history.

TEOTW: Prologue, Dragonmount, xv]

And it came to pass in those days, as it had come before and would come again, that the Dark lay heavy on the land and weighed down the hearts of men, and the green things failed, and hope died. And men cried out to the Creator, saying, O Light of the Heavens, Light of the World, let the Promised One be born of the mountain, according to the prophecies, as he was in ages past and will be in ages to come. Let the Prince of the Morning sing to the land that green things will grow and the valleys give forth lambs. Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark, and the great sword of justice defend us. Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time.

(From Charal Drianaan te Calamon, The Cycle of the Dragon. Author unknown, the Fourth Age)

He is not just the Dragon, he is also the Lord of the Dawn. He might be needed to start rebuilding the world. He dies as the Dragon and he lives again as the Lord of the Dawn/Prince of the Morning. As the Dragon he fights the dark one and the Dragon part of him will die, but then he will need to ‘sing’ to the land as the Prince of the Morning.

**Quit quoting logical fallacies at me with the "We've never seen it so it's perfectly logical." I'll put it this way: **

**Q: What are limits of TP? When did we see it used before?

A: Access to the TP is a matter of wanting it and the dark one letting you. NOT black cords. In Prologue to EotW we saw TP to heal insanity. The OP cannot be used to heal insanity.TP used at SG will fry you instantly.**

**Feel better? **

No because if the TP healed Lews Therin why is he still just as insane in Rands head? Also, your very example is how Rand can be healed. Moridin could do it like he did it before according to your quote. (Not sure where this quote is from, is it an RJ answer or another theory?)

**You can argue it either way -- but in any case Rand will remain mad as a loon. **

Is he as mad as a loon? Seems like he has a grip on it to me, he has a few quirks but it’s nothing that means he has to die. He’s not randomly killing people.

**However, the arguement was about Rand seeking refuge elsewhere than Randland proper. The Land of Madmen was suggested, and again, women gentle male channelers that they can find there. Seanchan is the same, only they kill their male channelers. Rand would pretty much already have been killed in Shara by now. Randland and the Aiel know Rand too much for him to hide in, if he can anywhere in the world.**

The argument was about whether Rand would live or not through balefiring. The seeking refuge was a thought thrown out there in response to you saying he had to die and couldn’t survive in Randland proper because he had not point to being there and wouldn’t be tolerated. My point is that I don’t think he will have to hide if he lives. He’ll be a king or whatever. Kings all have enemies and people willing to kill them yet somehow they manage to survive. For all the enemies Rand will have, he will also have friends and followers who will also protect him. When the light wins the last battle, how many darkfriends will there be? How many in positions of power to challenge/threaten Rand?

**All have their reasons for it. None of them is for the joy of it. **

They didn’t bond for the joy of it, no, but it is changing their minds now that Saidin is clean.

**No kidding, but a blueprint isn't a building.**

If you see a blueprint, you know there is going to be a building.

**In the Land of Madmen and Seanchan (if you followed the arguement not just took my comments out of context), they still will be.**

Not out of context, I was responding to you saying that the women channellers of Randland disliking male channellers. I might not understand what you were saying here but I took it as meaning that Rand couldn’t stay in that area because he was a male channeller and the women wouldn’t allow it. My argument is that they will because they are already forming a new society/system of male/female channellers.

**I've quoted the evidence many a time now. Rand's dead as a doornail.**

This is the quote you use…

**No, the most quoted is the "twice to live and twice to die." (Before anyone points it out, it's refering to Rand being marked twice for both, not him dying and living twice).**

This is the quote you use/reference with your emphasis… I don’t know how to bold so you all can look up to to where it is actually emphasized.

**Twice and twice shall he be marked, twice to live, and twice to die,

Once the heron to set his path.

Twice the heron, to name him true.

Once the Dragon for remembrance lost.

Twice the Dragon for the price he must pay.**

Twice marked to live (the Dragon being shown); twice marked to die.**

This is your interpretation of the prophecy. Prophecy having that awful habit of being misunderstood until it is actually revealed. You use the twice to live as figurative and the twice to die as literal. Well, why couldn’t it be literal for both? Figurative for both? Literal for living, figurative for dying? Why is your interpretation the only one that is correct? Please don’t say it’s because it’s obvious, that is not an explanation. That’s like “Why is the sky blue?” “Because it’s obviously blue!” Please explain.

The funny thing is, the only reason I posted here is because I couldn’t believe Callandor wouldn’t even acknowledge the slight possibility of Rand surviving somehow through the balefiring. If I misunderstood and you do acknowledge that it is unlikely but slightly possible I apologize for wasting the space here. However, the more I theorize here the more I become convinced he will live. Where I was once 50/50, I am now closer to 75 live/ 25 die.

74

Sharom: 2005-11-08

Arent' you guys forgetting something here? We've seen poetry at the start of books that was written in the first years of the Fourth Age, that has been said to have been written by Rand himself. If he can write poetry after Tarmon Gaidon, he must survive it.

75

bayle: 2005-11-08

So I am just new to Theoryland and I love this idea... but I am still of the opinion Alivia will be a much more simple thing... i.e. She will help him she his "blood on the rocks of shayol ghul" with say, a knife, or the power to kill him. This will happen either in a good way:

1. Rand is helpless, and she is the only one who can reach him. He must be killed to save the world and he can't do it on his own.

or in a bad way:

2. She turns out to be a darkfriend and kills him in a rage, but that death is what was needed to close the bore, or save the world. Unbeknownst to her, her murder caused his blood to be shed.

I love the balefire idea, especially because Rand noticied it so clearly when he saved Mat et al after killing Rahvin. But... I just think Alivia's involvement will be something much more simple than that...

76

Trahelion: 2005-11-09

To live you Must die. Alivia will help you die. In my opinion, Alivia will help Lews Therin let go of the past and die. I think that it is necessary in order for rand to win that Lews Therin has to die. I can provide no evidence for this save that it is the only way I can see that fits both the Ael'finn's answer and Min's viewing.

77

Callandor: 2005-11-09

**Why is that interpretation only for Rand?**

Because the Aelfinn didn't tell Rand that he would die and live again as a part of what was. Or do you not see the clear difference in what they said to two different people?

**Mat died, dead as a doornail and yet he is still alive.**

Technically, no. The event really never happened since the Pattern was altered around the balefiring. But he did die for a time before that, yes.

**According to your logic, Mat should have interpreted his death as meaning he was going to live again and again according to the Wheels needs.**

No, again, they're different situations.

**You mention “twice to live and twice to die” and I’m not exactly sure what that means.**

We know Rand is going to die. You seem to be making this into Rand will be balefired, and brought back to live happily ever after. No. He's going to die.

**To take it more literally and in context of what the finn say about his only chance to live is to die, I would say he was born (first life), dies at last battle (first death), brought back to life somehow (second life), dies of old age or whatever after the last battle (second death).**

The living and dying twice is refering to the herons and dragons he has recieved. I've already gone over this, several times.

**Well then how does anyone live? Every leader is fated to die that way. Every lord, lady, king, council members, anyone who has anyone under them that is ruthless enough to kill for that position which is everyone in power since there are darkfriends out there. Rand may eventually die that way, but because that is a strong possibility isn’t a reason he dies at the last battle though.**

Look, everyone is trying to find a way to convince themselves that Rand can go and walk off into the sunset and be alone and a complete hermit with no problems. Doesn't friggin work that way.

**He is not just the Dragon, he is also the Lord of the Dawn. He might be needed to start rebuilding the world. He dies as the Dragon and he lives again as the Lord of the Dawn/Prince of the Morning. As the Dragon he fights the dark one and the Dragon part of him will die, but then he will need to ‘sing’ to the land as the Prince of the Morning.**

He's the Dragon Reborn. It's a name given to him by man, just like many others.

And, the world won't really be "broken" this time around. It already has been, just far more figuratively (countries being dramatically changed, people and cultures as well).

Rand's going to die in the Last Battle. Whether this prophecy (if it is one truely, it just proves that the Light wins really) is fulfilled by Rand before then or by Perrin or by Mat and attributed to him.

Find a prophecy that mentions Rand alive and doing something after the Last Battle and you'd have something. So far, you've given nothing.

**No because if the TP healed Lews Therin why is he still just as insane in Rands head?**

Good question. Ever stop to think it's because Lews Therin isn't actually real? (Yes, dangerous thought in light of Knife of Dreams, isn't it?).

**Also, your very example is how Rand can be healed. Moridin could do it like he did it before according to your quote.**

Yes... Moridin is going to go Healing madness in Rand, for no reason at all.

He Healed Lews Therin of it to destroy him. With Rand, that's not needed.

**Is he as mad as a loon? Seems like he has a grip on it to me, he has a few quirks but it’s nothing that means he has to die. He’s not randomly killing people.**

Furthermore, when did I say that this was a reason why he would die? It's a reason why he can't just go off into the sunset and live a quiet peaceful and pleasent life -- he's seriously messed in the head.

**My point is that I don’t think he will have to hide if he lives. He’ll be a king or whatever. Kings all have enemies and people willing to kill them yet somehow they manage to survive. For all the enemies Rand will have, he will also have friends and followers who will also protect him. When the light wins the last battle, how many darkfriends will there be? How many in positions of power to challenge/threaten Rand?**

So state that and bring that up seperately -- don't try to enter into a clear discussion about Rand living in secrecy as his "death" if you don't believe it.

**They didn’t bond for the joy of it, no, but it is changing their minds now that Saidin is clean.**

More like that's Rand's ta'vereness, but if you wish to see it as so.

And, again, you're trying to say that a VERY small minority is the majority here. Rand goes many places in Randland after the Last Battle and a whole crap load of female channelers wouldn't give a crap about gentling or killing him. He goes to Seanchan -- death. Land of Madmen, same fate. Shara, would've already been killed anyway.

**If you see a blueprint, you know there is going to be a building.**

Except again it is not a building yet. Yes, there is a system to change female channelers, and the world's, perspective on male channelers. But it hasn't friggin worked yet.

**Not out of context, I was responding to you saying that the women channellers of Randland disliking male channellers.**

Wrong. I said this:

**You're trying to ignore a big problem -- RAND IS A MALE CHANNELER. Women have quite a dislike for male channelers in that region, and most of the ones people bring to mind. Again, you say I'm blinding myself to options, and the problem is you fail to see that those are simply NOT options.**

Not dealing with Randland Aes Sedai at all. This was in repsonse to the suggestion Rand goes to the Land of Madmen, since it will be "safe" now that there's no taint.

To which I quoted you're following response:

**By your logic, no male channelers will be tolerated to live after the last battle.**

To which I, still being in the context of the conversation, said this:

**In the Land of Madmen and Seanchan (if you followed the arguement not just took my comments out of context), they still will be.**

You took my comments completely out of context and tried to make it seem like I was saying male channelers everywhere will be turned against and hounded down. Again, I was dealing explictedly with Seanchan, Shara, and the Land of Madmen.

And to finish of this point, in this context (dealing with Randland -- ok? Following the context now?), yes, Randland Aes Sedai still dislike male channelers. Again, you're trying to skew a very small minority into the majority. Why do you think the Red Ajah went to the Black Tower in SECRET? Because it's a big change and a lot of Aes Sedai will not accept it at this time.

**I might not understand what you were saying here but I took it as meaning that Rand couldn’t stay in that area because he was a male channeller and the women wouldn’t allow it.**

I was replying to the Land of Madmen, Shara, and Seanchan.

I have told you already though that Rand also cannot stay in Randland. He's too well known, too many people would want to kill him, he is a male channeler, and the views of male channelers have not changed as great as you are making them out to be.

**This is the quote you use…**

No, I also use the "to live you must die" quote, and I could've sworn I quoted the "he who is dead yet lives" Foretelling here (though that might not have happened).

**

This is your interpretation of the prophecy. Prophecy having that awful habit of being misunderstood until it is actually revealed. You use the twice to live as figurative and the twice to die as literal. Well, why couldn’t it be literal for both? Figurative for both? Literal for living, figurative for dying? Why is your interpretation the only one that is correct? Please don’t say it’s because it’s obvious, that is not an explanation. That’s like “Why is the sky blue?” “Because it’s obviously blue!” Please explain.**

It's all literal. Rand recieved two markings to "live" (the Dragon was Reborn). This wasn't a figurative event that people have been making it out to be -- the Dragon was literally reborn then, as seen by the Pattern no longer accepting anymore false Dragons. He also recieved two markings to die.

Again, it's obvious.

**Arent' you guys forgetting something here? We've seen poetry at the start of books that was written in the first years of the Fourth Age, that has been said to have been written by Rand himself. If he can write poetry after Tarmon Gaidon, he must survive it.**

You're going to have to quote that part, since I am not aware of any of the 4th Age histories/whatevers being made by Rand.

78

Elan Morin Tedronai 21: 2005-11-10

Just a few random thoughts that I thought I'd throw out for anyone who cares.

1. There's always the possibility of Rand faking his death since his purpose as the Dragon Reborn will have been fulfilled. Alivia is supposed to be the one to help him die, and Logain still has honor and glory ahead of him according to Min's viewings. Egwene also had a dream (sorry, not sure which book) where Logain laughed as he stepped across Rand's body, but the body crumpled and disintegrated like it was made of paper machè, possibly representing a fake body, which could even be the one seen in the boat with Elayne, Min, and Avi.

2. Another possibility is that by dying, the Aelfinn meant he would be burned out or gentled, which inevitably lead to death in most cases at that point in the story (since stilling/gentling hadn't been able to be cured yet). However, with Rand having his 3 wives and twins on the way, not to mention Min's viewing that Aviendha is supposed to have 4 of his babies (whether or not 2 of them are Elayne's twins is irrelevant, since he's still gotta make 2 more with somebody to give him 4 kids anyway). Maybe Alivia helping Rand die means that she'll have to gentle him for one reason or another, i.e. Moridin taking over his body or whatever else you believe might happen. This would basically be killing the Dragon Reborn, since he would no longer be needed by the Pattern as the Dragon after the bore is sealed, patched, fixed, whatever. It is possible that he could go on living a normal, non-channelling life after that. In regard to Callandor's post about ta'veren having to die, this isn't the case as I see it. I know it was either Loial or Moiraine who, in the Eye of the World, described ta'veren as someone the pattern focuses on and shapes itself around FOR A TIME(emphasis mine). Once their major task is done, and the reason that they were ta'veren in the first place is removed, it is entirely possible for them to be completely normal people again and not have to die.

Also, on a side note, is it really out of the realm of possibility for the Creator to do something at the Last Battle?? Sure, he doesn't have to magically bring Rand back from the dead or anything cheesy like that, but I think we've seen him take part before. IIRC, during an interview with RJ someone asked if it was the Creator that spoke to Rand at the Battle of Tarwin's Gap in the Eye of the World, and RJ replied with his usual RAFO(need a Quotemaster here). This seems to indicate that there's a good chance it was, since if it wasn't he would've said something like, "No, the Creator made the Wheel and the DO and then sat back to watch, but he never takes part in anything that happens in the world. He leaves humanity to fix their own mistakes." We still haven't had that question answered in the books, unless I missed something HUGE somewhere, which means that there's a good possibility that the answer will be revealed in the final book, possibly by an intervention by the Creator.

Just a few random thoughts and possibilities. Have fun guys!!!

79

JakOShadows: 2005-11-10

bayle:

That is an interesting thought. Like when Egwene is doing the accepted tests, and in the test she to kill Rand and can't. And she doesn't seem to have all the compunctions that AS or others have about killing someone instead of stilling them when they're about to go crazy.

80

JakOShadows: 2005-11-10

Sorry about the double post.

Sharom:

Could you quote specifically the poetry written my Rand? I don't have my books with me, but I would like to see the exact wording. Thank you.

81

silverwolf: 2005-11-10

The fourth age poem referred to above, if I recall correctly, is "attributed" to the Dragon Reborn--i.e.: the attribution is not necessarily correct. While it is evidence that Rand lives, it is far from conclusive. Still, it's no further from conclusive than Callandor's assertion that the "Twice to live and twice to die" prophecy can only mean that Rand cannot survive the last battle...I don't really have much of an opinion on whether Rand lives or dies, and the evidence cited in this thread is far from conclusive in either way. Unless Callandor (or anyone really, but he seems to be leading the "Rand Dies" side) can provide a valid reason to interpret that single prophecy literally while so many others have been fulfilled only figuratively, then I think most people will have to admit there is a possibility for Rand to live past TG.

82

Callandor: 2005-11-11

**In regard to Callandor's post about ta'veren having to die, this isn't the case as I see it. I know it was either Loial or Moiraine who, in the Eye of the World, described ta'veren as someone the pattern focuses on and shapes itself around FOR A TIME(emphasis mine).**

Of couse it's for a time -- the time that they're still alive and ta'veren. Once they're dead, hey where'd the time go?

**Also, on a side note, is it really out of the realm of possibility for the Creator to do something at the Last Battle??**

Yes. Absolutely positively 100% not going to be any intervention of any kind to any degree by the Creator. He doesn't interfere.

**This seems to indicate that there's a good chance it was, since if it wasn't he would've said something like, "No, the Creator made the Wheel and the DO and then sat back to watch, but he never takes part in anything that happens in the world. He leaves humanity to fix their own mistakes."**

No, you're using the idea that RAFO = something important. Jordan uses RAFO equally for important things and for things that he might use but isn't sure of and just wants to keep his options open.

**Still, it's no further from conclusive than Callandor's assertion that the "Twice to live and twice to die" prophecy can only mean that Rand cannot survive the last battle...**

Care to explain how that is?

**Unless Callandor (or anyone really, but he seems to be leading the "Rand Dies" side) can provide a valid reason to interpret that single prophecy literally while so many others have been fulfilled only figuratively, then I think most people will have to admit there is a possibility for Rand to live past TG.**

When have they all been completely figuratively? Everyone that I know of have been completed literally. Want an example?:

TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 6 - Doorways

"Power of the Shadow made human flesh,

wakened to turmoil, strife, and ruin.

The Reborn One, marked and bleeding,

dances the sword in dreams and mist,

chains the Shadowsworn to his will,

from the city, lost and forsaken,

leads the spears to war once more,

breaks the spears and makes them see,

truth long hidden in the ancient dream."

She grimaced. "It applies to this as well as it does to anything. Illian under Sammael is surely a forsaken city. Lead the Tairen spears to war, chain Sammael, and he has fulfilled the verse. The ancient dream of the Dragon Reborn. But he will not see it. He even has a copy in the Old Tongue, as if he understood two words. He runs after shadows, and Sammael, or Rahvin, or Lanfear may have him by the throat before I can convince him of his mistake."**

Completed literally by Rand of course. The problem is that they are interpreted by the characters figuratively generally. However, completing them? Nah, that's literal.

Not to mention, again, it's more than this single prophecy that points directly to Rand dying.

83

Kuma: 2005-11-16

**Rand recieved two markings to “live” [...] He also recieved two markings to die.

Again, it's obvious.**

--from Callandor

--------------

Greetings, all. New to Theoryland. This is, in fact, my first post. Let's jump right in, shall we?

I'm going to very strongly disagree with Callandor that this:

Twice and twice shall he be marked, twice to live, and twice to die,

necessitates that Rand will die a final, irreversible death during the Last Battle.

The problematic grammatical structure of the prophecy, clearly written in a poetic form and likely given to us in translation from the Old Tongue, makes it IMPOSSIBLE to determine with any CERTAINTY either the meaning of the word “to” as it is repeated in this line, or the subject(s) of the last two clauses. Here are possible extrapolated interpretations:

1) The subject of this prophecy [presumably the Dragon] will be marked with four marks—two signifying his life and two signifying his death. [If I have read correctly, this is the interpretation that Callandor advocates, although he may actually be in favor of the second option.]

2) The subject of this prophecy [presumably the Dragon] will be marked with four marks—twice signifying his life and twice signifying his death. [A small change, but significant in that the event of the marking is significant rather than the marks themselves. Also a viable interpretation of this line.]

3) The subject of this prophecy [presumably the Dragon] will be marked with four marks—Twice in order that he should live, and twice in order that he should die. [This interpretation is a stretch because we've already seen that neither Rand's life, nor his death, are dependent on either his marks or the events of his markings, save in the most broad, metaphorical sense.]

4) The subject of this prophecy [presumably the Dragon] will be marked with four marks—that subject is to live twice and is to die twice. [I believe that this is a position maintained by several others here on this board, although the specifics of how this is to come about are widely speculated on.]

Any of these interpretations can arise from the grammar in that line. There are others, but these are the four (or five, depending on how you want to count the third one) with distinct meanings, and the rest are variations on these. (Simply put, “to = significant of” or “to = in order to/that” or “to = is fated to/that”; “clause subject = marks” or “clause subject = events of markings” or “clause subject = subject of this prophecy.”)

Now, let's consider the context—the next four lines:

Once the heron to set his path.

Twice the heron, to name him true.

Once the Dragon for remembrance lost.

Twice the Dragon for the price he must pay.

These lines seem to eliminate 2) above, as these are clearly referent to the marks themselves and not the marking events. Also, if we are to correspond these marks as significant of his life and death as in 1), then the assertions/depictions in these four lines should likewise correspond to his life and death. “Setting his path” and “naming him true” are clearly in the “life” category. “Price he must pay” seems suggestive of death. The problem here is that “for remembrance lost” is very probably referring to the lost memories of the Aiel, and does not correspond to Rand's death, thereby making it not “twice to die” in the significant sense. Evidence that this line is referring to the lost memories of the Aiel is that it is the same mark that all the clan chiefs receive as their mark for remembrance lost. These four lines are HIGHLY problematic for interpretation 1).

Advocates of interpretation 3) might argue that in a larger, metaphorical sense, these markings are there, and the mere fact of them is what drives Rand’s destiny, has forced him do the things he does—including living and dying. Possible, I suppose, and the “set his path” line seems to move in that direction, but that would reduce the importance of his markings to a large degree, since it could be argued that everything about his life—Moiraine's vist, the teaching of the Flame and Void by Tam, etc—have been driving him toward that destiny as well. Frankly, I find it sloppy, and have more faith in Jordan as a writer.

The only way to interpret these lines that makes any sense to me is 4), and since it is the one that leaves the most room for Jordan to work with in terms of playing out/rewriting scenarios, I believe it will be the road he takes. Again, this is all just my own speculation, though I think that there's a measure of truth in it. And since we're looking at the sun dawning twice on a certain fateful day, there are no guarantees that Rand won't die both times on that day, but again, my point is that there are no guarantees in this prophecy, and anyone who tells you that they have gained certainty from what is obscurity by design is clearly in err.

84

JakOShadows: 2005-11-17

Kuma:

Good evidence there. I haven't seen anyone go into that much detail on the grammar and sentence structure. While I think it is more of a toss up between three and four, nice work on breaking it down. As you say, there is no absolute correct result we can get from this, but I always thought that the third interpretation applied to him dying and fourth applied to him living past the LB. I'm just not ready to doom Rand to the fate of dying just yet, it is just so depressing to think about.;)

85

Callandor: 2005-11-18

**The problematic grammatical structure of the prophecy, clearly written in a poetic form and likely given to us in translation from the Old Tongue, makes it IMPOSSIBLE to determine with any CERTAINTY either the meaning of the word “to” as it is repeated in this line, or the subject(s) of the last two clauses.**

Right, when you get a quote that states a different version of the prophecy, get back to me. Other than that, stick with what we're given.

I don't see anyone clamouring to say there were different meanings to other prophecies completed, or ones still needing to be completed, except this one.

**The problem here is that “for remembrance lost” is very probably referring to the lost memories of the Aiel, and does not correspond to Rand's death, thereby making it not “twice to die” in the significant sense.**

How is that? It's obviously the knowledge gained in Rhuidean -- but it doesn't change that it's a mark that he will die.

**Advocates of interpretation 3) might argue that in a larger, metaphorical sense, these markings are there, and the mere fact of them is what drives Rand’s destiny, has forced him do the things he does—including living and dying.**

No, what does that is the Wheel -- the prophecies just show what the outcome is.

**The only way to interpret these lines that makes any sense to me is 4), and since it is the one that leaves the most room for Jordan to work with in terms of playing out/rewriting scenarios, I believe it will be the road he takes.**

Why would he need to re-write scenarios? He's made the prophecies, he's got the ending in mind, he's clearly set on it.

And, no, this one is false. There is not a reference to living and dying. It's "Twice and twice shall he be marked, twice to live, and twice to die." It's refering to the two markings, one set of two markings meaning he has been reborn, the other set of two markings meaning he will die. There is no double life or double death here. It's two marking for two events: one living, one dying. That's it.

**And since we're looking at the sun dawning twice on a certain fateful day, there are no guarantees that Rand won't die both times on that day, but again, my point is that there are no guarantees in this prophecy, and anyone who tells you that they have gained certainty from what is obscurity by design is clearly in err.**

Rand will clearly die. There is no doubt, except your own squirming to try to get around the fact.

86

Khazhul: 2005-11-18

Kuma, outstanding post. I can't answer for everyone here and what they beleive but I can tell you I am uncertain how to translate that passage. I am just trying to point out the possibility of Rand surviving. I actually have more to write here but I for what I want to say I will have to post it later as I don't have my books or notes on what I want to get across. I feel there has been too many misunderstandings.

87

JennSedai: 2005-11-19

As an aside--there is another way to live once you are dead. Recall Birgitte--she was dead (and also a notable cyclic) and was "pulled" out of waiting by the warder bond. I think Alivia will indeed help Rand die. How/if he is to live again is another question. As to the connection with LTT and Moridin, it seems Rands death could release both of them, but I dont recall if there is precedent here. (Was is ever mentioned whether either Isam or Luc actually died in their situation?) I do wonder in this whole context if Rand's Ishy wound is related to this event. Perhap's a Nynaeve/Flinn connection? I doubt it would be a straight healing of death discovery, but an unexpected side effect of taveren timing/coincidence could allow a one time happenstance (during healing by linked male/female healers) I suppose.

88

Kuma: 2005-11-20

**Right, when you get a quote that states a different version of the prophecy, get back to me. Other than that, stick with what we're given.

I don't see anyone clamouring to say there were different meanings to other prophecies completed, or ones still needing to be completed, except this one.**

Not that I expected anything less, after reading your earlier postings, Callandor, but frankly, attempts at withering sarcasm do not make your case any stronger. In your attempts to deflect my point, you seem to have missed it entirely. Your repeated assertions of absolute certainty that you know the truth are unfounded, precisely because the prophecy on which you base them on is itself ambiguous. Also, you're wasting your time if you think you can red-herring your way out of the fact that your certainty is a farce by dragging out bad arguments about general prophecy interpretation.

**How is that? It's obviously the knowledge gained in Rhuidean -- but it doesn't change that it's a mark that he will die.**

Here's what I'm saying about the way that these marks correspond for interpretation 1) in a more broken-down form:

1)

2 marks = life

2 marks = death

set his path = life

name him true = life

price he must pay = death

remembrance lost ≠ death

Therefore 1) is not the case.

**No, what does that is the Wheel -- the prophecies just show what the outcome is.**

Trust me, I'm not making the case for interpretation 3). I was just putting forward what I saw as the strongest argument that its adherents might argue.

**Why would he need to re-write scenarios? He's made the prophecies, he's got the ending in mind, he's clearly set on it.

And, no, this one is false. There is not a reference to living and dying. It's "Twice and twice shall he be marked, twice to live, and twice to die." It's refering to the two markings, one set of two markings meaning he has been reborn, the other set of two markings meaning he will die. There is no double life or double death here. It's two marking for two events: one living, one dying. That's it.**

Scenes, chapters and even whole plotlines undergo versioning and rewriting, sometimes at the author's option, sometimes at the behest of editors or publishers. My point is that 4) gives Jordan the most room to work/rework as he writes, in addition to creating the most tension for readers with its ambiguity. He might have his mind already made up regarding Rand's fate, but we as readers have no way of knowing that, nor can we say with any certainty what he's already got in mind if that is the case. And as has been said before, repeating your opinions over and over does not make them any truer or your case any stronger. Only solid evidence can do that, and you haven't got any.

**Rand will clearly die. There is no doubt, except your own squirming to try to get around the fact.**

If the board will permit me a small digression... I'm not trying to be insulting here, Callandor, but one does wonder whether your vehemence in defending an indefensible position is because you simply can't cope with uncertainty. It's almost as if your attempts to convince us that Rand will die a final death in the Last Battle are a kind of self-preparation so that you're not too upset in case he actually does. That's an understandable position, since it's hard to not care about characters that you've been reading for eleven books, but it doesn't seal Rand's fate any more than the prophecy does. Personally, I'd prefer to have hope concerning Rand's final death, but to each their own.

89

haertchen: 2005-11-22

"It's refering to the two markings, one set of two markings meaning he has been reborn, the other set of two markings meaning he will die."

Well, at least he's come up with something better than he had when I was discussing it with him.

90

Anubis: 2005-11-25

"It's refering to the two markings, one set of two markings meaning he has been reborn, the other set of two markings meaning he will die."

Umm... Herons and Dragons?

91

Kordeid: 2005-11-28

Maybe because Rand will be able to lay a trap knowing that Alivia will bring him back to life?

In the sky over Falme Rand was able to achieve his limited victory by adopting a pose that led his attacker into a false sense of security.

He paid a price for that victory but the principle is the same.

92

Kordeid: 2005-11-28

***Another is that there is no real purpose to the act, other than to bring Rand back to life. Why would Alivia do this? Bringing Rand back into a body that is pretty much a wreck BEFORE the Last Battle seems more a cruelty than a kindness.***

I am a newbie to theoryland, and i must congratulate some of you guys on some really creative and thought provoking stuff. I think I would have to read the entire series a few times over to come to that level of knowledge. I do have one tip though...

Watch for Nyneave to absolutely Balefire Semirhage out of existence bringing Rand back to health to some degree.

93

Lord of the Dawn: 2005-12-02

I wouldn't think that even Nynaeve would be able to balefire Semi out of the Pattern that far. It may not even be possible because of the extreme amount of the OP required considering the time elapsed since he was given his wounds. The Choedan Kal probably couldn't do it and the female one is destroyed. Also you must take into account that that much balefire could potentially cause serious damage to the Pattern and come close to unraveling it.

94

warick: 2006-12-01

Elan Morin got me thinking about Rand's kids. We already know he's got two on the way from Elayne. Didn't Lanfear tell him way back in TGH that if he had a boy he would have to kill it or it would kill him. I'm sure someone somewhere has mentioned before that spilling his blood could mean his child's blood.

On the other hand "if to live you must die" could also mean his blood line still lives on through his children.

time with Rand than Elayne ever did.

For the record, I agree with Callandor.

BTW, I'm surprised Min hasn't gotten pregnant yet, she's spent a lot more

95

vardene: 2006-12-03

nothing so amazing,it happens all the time to couples-plus its really less than a year. perhaps you mean to recommend her for healing?

96

Fourth Age Historian: 2008-09-14

A lot of people seem to be of the opinion that Rand's "to live, you must die" answer means that he will be bound back to the wheel and spun out again. The thing is, it would be a pretty bogus answer if this is the case...we (and he) already know that he is spun out again and again as the champion of the light. There is no "if" to his death in this life. It just doesn't make sense as an if/then statement, in terms of the future rebirths, because the if part is 100% assured. He posed his question specifically in relation to "can he survive Tarmon Gaidon."

and Callandor, how can you say that the three items, being dead, believed dead, and living don't make sense together? Of course they do: this is what happened to Jesus, and we have it from how many sources that exactly this is prophecied? Besides, if he dies, people will believe he's dead (so two go together anyway) and if he's resurrected, I would think people will doubt it...

Nicola's foretelling, "he who is dead yet lives". This is a FORETELLING...something that WILL happen. The three in the foretelling can only be Avi, Elayne, and Min...so how could it not refer to Rand?

The above mentioned Finn line.

Nicola foretells again about Rand doing "nine impossible things" being resurrected would surely fit...and can't be ruled out until we've seen him do nine OTHER impossible things.

Also interesting that he is marked twice to live and twice to die...this always seemed to me like an indication that he would both live and die twice.

"Once for mourning, once for birth"

once for mourning = the boat thing. once for birth = resurrection.

Then there are the paralells...yes, Christ is only part, according to RJ, but there are so many ties to JEsus that what we've seen so far almost wouldn't make sense without a resurrection.

The Norse God Tyr is never resurrected (I don't think) but those elements of Rand's character demonstrate how Jesus is "only part" of Rand's inspiration.

The Arthurian part, though, actually supports the "rebirth in future ages". King Arthur was borne away on a boat with three women, to sleep until England's greatest need...so this much of it makes things a little questionable.

I have heard it said that the injuries Rand has taken are more the Fisher King part than the Jesus part of his character. I disagree: it is both. In the Arthurian legend, the Fisher King is wounded with the same spear that wounded Jesus.

I have also seen some folks attribute the Herons to the legend of the phoenix...rising from its ashes to be born again.

That last is a little weak, granted...but with only one piece of evidence that he will NOT immediately be resurrected (Arthur) and countless pieces that say he will...I just see it as an inevitability, and anything short of his resurrection would be a cop-out.

Finally, it doesn't mean he has to stick aroun long. Jesus very soon "ascended to heaven," and fundamentalist Christians belive this happened bodily. Everyone left to the "Gray Havens" in LotR. In NArnia, they all went through a door to another land...etc., etc...after he wins, he lives again, but soon is gone from the world.