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he Linear Theory

by Ieyasu: 2006-05-31 | 1.9 out of 10 (10 votes)

Recent Categories: How Will It End?

Thesis:

The most basic summary of this theory is that Rand will break the Wheel of Time, and end the cyclic rotations, thus creating a linear time line and ending the predestined reincarnation ages.

Rand will break the wheel of time ending the cycles and thus creating free destiny. The dark one will not be destroyed, however without a pattern to influence, being as he is OUTSIDE the pattern; he will not be able to intervene in the human world.

Just as the DO is trapped in all worlds, or if freed in one world is freed in all worlds, so the Wheel of Time governs all realities. Breaking it in one breaks it in all. The fabric of the pattern, the very threads are human life, or souls, being woven into pattern, breaking the wheel frees the pattern and allows man a free destiny that is not preprogrammed.

Because the wheel is broken, no souls will be reborn. Life becomes finite, as there is no longer a reincarnation. To die is to die.

Without a wheel to spin a pattern for the threads, humanity will have free destiny, no predestined roles to be filled, man kind will have true freedom. Since the creator and the dark one are outside the pattern, it is possible they may still be able to influence humanity, but more as a fundamental difference between good vs. evil, right and wrong, polarized diametric opposites. Once broken, the wheel can’t return.

Thus ending the DO threat of remaking the world.

Hence THE LAST BATTLE!!!

Details:

What is the Wheel of Time?

Well, for this I direct attention to the following:

TEOW Glossary pg 669

***Wheel of Time, the: Time is a wheel with seven spokes, each spoke an Age. As the Wheel turns, the Ages come and go, each leaving memories that fade to legend, then to myth, and are forgotten by the time that Age comes again. The Pattern of and Age is slightly different each time an Age comes, and each time it is subject to greater change but each time it is the same Age.***

Now basically, the way I see it there can’t be a literal wheel spinning real threads somewhere. So it is a metaphor for the machinations of the process of the cycle of Ages. The ‘Wheel’ rotates around and around, spinning the same basic pattern but it has some variation, change that gets greater with each turning. (Is its path perhaps a spiral?).

TEOW chap 36 pg 466

***”…You see, the Wheel of Time weaves the Pattern of the Ages, and the threads it uses are lives. It is not fixed, the Pattern, NOT ALWAYS. If a man tries to change the direction of his life and the Pattern has room for it, the Wheel just weaves on and takes it in. there is always room for small changes, but sometimes the Pattern simply wont accept a big change, no matter how hard you try…”***(emphasis mine)

There is some free will, a little wiggle room, but this is still a predestined universe. How could prophecies even exist, if the pattern isn’t predictable? Predestined predictability. Rand specifically has been born or reborn to do whatever it is he does to shut away the DO. This is the 3rd age. And age to come and an age long past. It is possible to introduce new threads into the pattern. This can be seen with Bridgette being thrust into the pattern irregularly, or SH perhaps as well, however, there is an awful lot of soul recycling (all the heroes of the horn, LTT, hawkwing, cain, brig, the twins, etc, these souls are all spun out as corrective devices of the pattern to make sure the changes that are greater with each rotation don’t deviate too far beyond what can be maintained to hold a PATTERN). Patterns, in of themselves suggest predictability, and since there are 7 spokes, 7 ages, this is the 3rd (starting from where the book counts as 1, being as there is no reason to assume that was truly the “FIRST” age, just the 3rd they can remember atm…)which is to come and has already passed. The ability to predict the ‘spinning’ and interpret the pattern and create prophecies suggests that it is readable and predicable at least to a select talented few. In short: PREDESTINY

So what is making the Wheel spin?

The one power, this is easily verifiable through many quotes peppered in TEOTW, I’ve gathered a few:

****TEOTW prologue pg xiii

He was still touching Saidin, the male half of the power the drove the universe, THAT TURNED THE WHEEL OF TIME…”***

***TEOTW chap 8 pg 88

The Power. The One Power, drawn from the True Source THAT DROVE THE WHEEL OF TIME.***

Why is this relevant? Because it establishes a connection between the power that everyone uses and the Wheel of Time. Infact, the power POWERS the Wheel. It is the force that SPINS the wheel. This creates a connection for channelers. The connection into the Source which is spinning the Wheel.

What is it spinning?

The Great Pattern. The Age Lace, etc see TEOTW glossary

The woven fabric that is the “BIG PICTURE” that the threads create. (Providing it was a tangible weave to be seen.)

What is interesting though is a specific sentence in the definition of the Great Pattern:

***TEOTW Glossary pg 664

Great Pattern: The Wheel of Time eaves the Pattern of the Ages into the Great Pattern, WHICH IS THE WHOLE OF EXISTANCE AND REALITY, PAST PRESANT AND FUTURE. Also known as the Lace of Ages*** (emphasis mine)

On one hand this can be taken as dashing my whole theory stating that reality doesn’t exist without a pattern. But is the wheel the only thing that can create a pattern? I see this as linking past, present and future into a woven predictable pattern that gets repackaged every turning of the wheel.

Breaking the wheel that creates a system that rotates every seven periods doesn’t have to mean that the pattern process is destroyed. That just means that the wheel that locks it into THESE SPECIFIC seven ages is broken. Allowing for a completely NEW 8th age.

An age that has never before been a reality because the wheel kept spinning the same 7 patterns for however many rotations up to date. There will still be threads. Threads will still interact with each other. There will no longer be a guiding hand on the loom that is spinning out the destiny of those threads. Forcing them down certain roads, or resisting them on ‘big changes’. The wheel is gone. But a pattern still remains. It’s just not dictated by a reincarnation system. There is no wheel to force specific souls here, or there, or fix this problem. Mankind becomes free willed, completely, without influence. So breaking the wheel doesn’t necessitate destroying the pattern process. It is just a removal of the hand that is guiding the loom, dictating the pattern.

What about the Dark One?

That’s the thing; the DO is outside of the pattern. The hole was open in AOL, how come he didn’t come out then? He is on the outside trying to get IN.

**BWB: The World of Robert Jordan’s The Wheel of Time

CHAPTER: 1 - The Wheel and the Pattern

The only known forces outside the Wheel and the Pattern are the Creator, who shaped the Wheel, the One Power that drives it--as well as the plan for the Great Pattern--and the Dark One, who was imprisoned outside the pattern by the Creator at the moment of creation. No one inside and of the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern. Even those who are ta'veren can only alter, but not completely change, the weave. It is believed that if he escapes his prison, the Dark One, being a creature or force beyond creation, has the ability to remake the Wheel and all of creation in his own dark image. Thus each person, especially each of those born ta'veren, must struggle to achieve his or her own best destiny to assure the balance and continuation of the Great Pattern.**

Rand has been prophesized to do 9 impossible things. You can’t discount this theory because its ‘impossible’. Rand does impossible things.

***COT: chap 17 pg 431

“Ever since we found out she has been Foretelling, she’s been Foretelling two or three times a day, to hear her tell of it. Or rather, to hear Areina tell of it. Nicola is smart enough to know everyone is aware she can’t remember what she says when she Foretells, but Areina always seems to be there to hear and remember, and help interpret. Some are the sort of things anyone in the camp with half a brain and a credulous nature might think up –battles with the Seanchan, or the Asha`man, an Amyrlin imprisoned, THE DRAGON REBORN DOING NINE IMPOSSIBLE THINGS, visions that might be Tarmon Gai`don or a bilious stomach—and the rest all just happen to indicate Nicola ought to be allowed to go faster with her lessons. She’s always too greedy for that. I think even most of the other novices has stopped believing her.”***(emphasis mine)

However, the credibility of Nicola’s foretelling is somewhat dubious, as seen in by the quote. Or is it? This is just the personal judgment of the speaker. Nicola could be faking it sometimes, and not faking it other times. I'm sure if she has a foretelling about going faster in training, that can be discounted (perhaps) out of hand, but can you dismiss 9 impossible things as easily? It has been shown that she has SOME reliability, with the ‘amyrlin imprisoned’ bit as is… so this may or may not be a ‘real foretelling’, but it certainly cant be dismissed, yet.

Where is the DO?

OUTSIDE the pattern.

Everywhere, nowhere. Doesn’t matter. What matters is that existence is possible without a pattern, proven by the very fact that the DO EXISTS OUTSIDE the pattern.

The thing that gives him creative control over the world is the wheel that has the ages locked in this cycle which gives him the ability or opportunity to escape from outside the pattern INTO the pattern.

Has the idea of the broken Wheel have any precedence within the WOT?

Yes.

As seen below when Ishmael is speaking with Rand:

**TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 15 - Kinslayer

"I have a thousand strings tied to you, Kinslayer, each one finer than silk and stronger than steel. Time has tied a thousand cords between us. The battle we two have fought-do you remember any part of that? Do you have any glimmering that we have fought before, battles without number back to the beginning of Time? I know much that you do not! That battle will soon end. The Last Battle is coming. The last, Lews Therin. Do you really think you can avoid it? You poor, shivering worm. You will serve me or die! And this time the cycle will not begin anew with your death. The grave belongs to the Great Lord of the Dark. This time if you die, you will be destroyed utterly. This time the Wheel will be broken whatever you do, and the world remade to a new mold. Serve me! Serve Shai'tan, or be destroyed forever!"**

Ishmael is stating that the Wheel will be broken no matter what Rand does. Is Ishmael the most reliable of sources? That is left up to the reader to decide. With in all lies, a seed of truth germinates. He could be mistaken about the Wheel, just plain wrong. Sure that’s a possibility. But so is the possibility that he is privy to private knowledge from the DO, or possibility that the taint has eroded his barrier between souls and he too, has memories from previous lives (assuming that effect is a byproduct of the taint, and rand/LTT is a example of the taints effect on the barrier within a soul between past lives, it could be within the realm of the DO to grant such memories to his antidragon/proxy)

So could this be the “LAST BATTLE” because this is the battle in which rand seals the DO away then breaks the wheel, ending the cycle that dictates he will break out and effect man kind.

Perhaps the breaking in of itself nullifies the DO’s ability to affect the world as closely as he has been. It is conceivable that without a reincarnation system, and no wheel to spin a controllable pattern, that the DO will be forced to be as inactive and indirect as the creator.

Thus creating a true balance between good and evil.

Conclusion:

There is a link between mankind and the source that drives the wheel. The wheel dictates a predestined pattern (with some predictability, despite its variance each rotation)

Impossible things have been done.

Rand is ‘destined’ to do impossible things.

One of the things Rand does that is ‘impossible’ is to break the wheel. In the breaking of the wheel, the hand that guides the pattern is removed. Without a hand to guide the pattern, it spins freely, allowing man to determine his own fate. It is the LAST BATTLE, because after its destruction, there is no possibility of the DO being able to remake an age in his image. There is no control over fate. The DO is reduced to activity similar to the creator, in that he will have no ability to have direct control over the fate of man. It will be the LAST direct confrontation against the DO, the LAST BATTLE to ensure man remains FREE to choice right and wrong. Death becomes final. The cycle ends and time becomes a straight line, traveling forward.

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Comments

1

Tamyrlin: 2006-09-04

Thanks Ieyasu, for spending a good amount of time putting this idea together. I have a problem with the idea since we know the Wheel is what weaves the Pattern, how can there still be a Pattern, without the Wheel? I have a hard time believe the Wheel would allow Rand to break it...considering the Wheel controls Rand. There is a small amount of free will, as you suggest, but the Wheel knows what is going to happen (Min's talent and prophecies and fortellings). So, are you suggesting that the Wheel knows that Rand will break it and that the Wheel would allow for it? The idea that the DO can break the Wheel stems from the belief that the DO is outside of the Wheel and therefore the Wheel has no ability to control the DO as it would a thread inside the Pattern.

2

Prince of Ravens: 2006-09-04

I really wish you were right, but RJ (unfortunately) said in one of the Q/As, that this turning is just one of many and not special ... which IMHO rules out things like Rand loosing or gaining a linear time.

3

Callandor: 2006-09-04

To begin, no, there won't ever be linear time in this world.

**The most basic summary of this theory is that Rand will break the Wheel of Time, and end the cyclic rotations, thus creating a linear time line and ending the predestined reincarnation ages.

Rand will break the wheel of time ending the cycles and thus creating free destiny. The dark one will not be destroyed, however without a pattern to influence, being as he is OUTSIDE the pattern; he will not be able to intervene in the human world.**

Along with beng the pattern of fate, the Pattern is the substance of reality for the Age. No Pattern, no Wheel -- no world. So, I can't see Rand destroying all existance, even if it wasn't said to be impossible already.

**Without a wheel to spin a pattern for the threads, humanity will have free destiny, no predestined roles to be filled, man kind will have true freedom.**

Except that it will have been destroyed....

**Thus ending the DO threat of remaking the world.

Hence THE LAST BATTLE!!!**

Two main reasons why this would never happen:

1. The series is all about balance -- it's one of the main themes. With no balance at all, just what does that do to the theme?

2. This is not the Last Battle. We know that already. The Light wins and Ages continue.

**On one hand this can be taken as dashing my whole theory stating that reality doesn’t exist without a pattern. But is the wheel the only thing that can create a pattern?**

In this world, yes. Hence why this would only work in theory (but that already is nixed by another quote) to destroy all existance. Some freedom.

**Breaking the wheel that creates a system that rotates every seven periods doesn’t have to mean that the pattern process is destroyed.**

Uh, yeah, it does:

**BWB: The World of Robert Jordan’s The Wheel of Time

CHAPTER: 1 - The Wheel and the Pattern

What is the Wheel of Time? Imagine a great cosmic loom in the shape of a seven-spoked wheel, slowly spinning through eternity, weaving the fabric of the universe. The Wheel, put in place by the Creator, is time itself, ever turning and returning. The fabric it weaves is constructed from the threads of lives and events, interlaced into a design, the Great Pattern, which is the whole of existence and reality, past, present, and future.

...

In this world there is no one beginning or one end, for each spoke of the great Wheel represents one of the seven Ages, receding into the past and returning in the future as the Wheel spins, the fabric of each age changing only its weave and pattern with each passing. With every pass the changes vary to an increasingly greater degree. For each Age there is a separate and unique pattern, the Pattern of the Age, which forms the substance of reality for that age. The design is predetermined by the Wheel and can only partially be changed by those lives which make up the threads within the weave.

...

The Great Wheel is the very heart of all time. But even the Wheel requires energy to maintain itself, and its pattern. This energy comes from the True Source, from which the One Power may be drawn. Both the True Source and the One Power are made up of two conflicting yet complementary parts: saidin, the male half, and saidar, the female half. Working both together and against one another within the True Source, it is saidin and saidar which provide the driving force that turns the Wheel of Time.**

The Wheel makes the Pattern. No Wheel -- no Pattern. No Wheel, no time, no reality, no existance.

**There will still be threads. Threads will still interact with each other.**

And why is that, again without an existance or reality?

**So breaking the wheel doesn’t necessitate destroying the pattern process.**

Yes, it does.

**Rand has been prophesized to do 9 impossible things. You can’t discount this theory because its ‘impossible’. Rand does impossible things.**

Well, then, this theory, and any other becomes uncontravertible. Congrats! You've point to the carte blanche and said that was enough to say it was fine for everything. Wait till Rand flies with the One Power!

But here's just where simple thinking comes in. The Wheel works to prevent the Dark One from getting free of his prison. It works to maintain the balance of the Pattern, so as to make sure the above does not happen. It does so, because presumably if the Dark One gets free, the Wheel is to be destroyed. So, the Wheel is working to ensure its survival as well as that of the world.

And you're saying it's just going to let Rand do what the Dark One certainly seems likely to do. Against it stated to be impossible (and not just assumed to be impossible). Against the Wheel's own nature and control. Heck, you're going so far as to say that the Wheel is demanding that it be destroyed.

**I'm sure if she has a foretelling about going faster in training, that can be discounted (perhaps) out of hand, but can you dismiss 9 impossible things as easily?**

**Doesn’t matter. What matters is that existence is possible without a pattern, proven by the very fact that the DO EXISTS OUTSIDE the pattern.**

Yeah, existance is possible for a deity beyond the Wheel's influence and creation -- kinda different (oh, I don't know, completely) from the situation of the people that live inside and of the Pattern.

**Thus creating a true balance between good and evil.**

By making absolutely no balance. It's similar to having a scale with whatever weight system on each end, and then tossing away the scale, the weights, and just having empty space and claiming "It's balanced."

4

Chang: 2006-09-05

Not bad at all...unless what Prince of Ravens says is true...the other thing I thought works for you is from lanfear, I think in the Shadow Rising, where she says it has never happened before, that a man is born at a specific time, doing specific things according to prophecy. If this is a first, like birgitte being ripped out untimely, then perhaps it is supposed to indicate that the last battle will be the last. Also, even if this age is just like the others till now, it may still end differently. Though i also don't see how there could be a 'pattern' without a wheel...it would just be a bunch of thread going of into the void randomly, which is also a pattern of sorts really. Also it would have the adjuntct that no one would be able to channel at all as there is nothing to channel, as the power wouldn't be needed to turn the wheel.

5

Traveller: 2006-09-05

The Prince of Ravens could be right on this, but I haven't seen the Jordan quote, so I will just make my point.

First of all, I like the idea behind this, because I have an issue with how pointless it all is if it is going to happen all over again later, although Jordan could of course say this is what happens. However, I would prefer the storyline if something like what you have described did occur.

In reference to your quote from Ishamael:

"This time the Wheel will be broken whatever you do, and the world remade to a new mold."

I think he probably means that whatever Rand does, the DO will still win and break the wheel (which is simply his opinion or delusion because he thinks that if Rand obeys him, then everyhting can be done that he wishes; and if Rand does no bow down to hime, he will have Rand killed meaning that the DO has his soul, or whatever crazy Ishamael thinks.

One last thing: If your theory is to be correct, one quote you used stuck out to me from The World of Robert Jordan’s The Wheel of Time:

"No one inside and of the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern."

Therefore, if Rand could possible destroy the wheel, he would have to OUTSIDE the pattern. This could perhaps be achieved by dying? Which would fulfill that prophecy about his blood on the rocks... But then I don't know how by dying he will live again, so that doesn't work so well.

6

Prince of Ravens: 2006-09-06

***

"No one inside and of the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern."

Therefore, if Rand could possible destroy the wheel, he would have to OUTSIDE the pattern.

***

As I have already written, I don't think Rand will break the wheel, but I could imagine one way to get outside the pattern: enter the prison of the DO - he is imprisoned outside the pattern, right?

7

Farzon: 2006-09-06

As far as Rand being the one who will break the pattern (lowercase p on purpose) being spun over and over by the Wheel, I think he will. It has to end at some point.

One of the quotes earlier said that while Ages repeat and repeat, the Pattern during each changes slightly as its inhabitants live out their daily lives. One could then imagine that with enough time, enough repetitions, so many changes could have happened that it can be considered new rather than just another slight variation of the 7-trick pony/Wheel. With that in mind, I think there is a good chance that the Dark One will be eliminated. Infinity is just that big, slim chance and coincidence becomes likelyhood (not talking about ta'vern).

The booming voice in Rand's head at Tarwin's Gap in EotW makes me think that the DO will have to be dealt with once and for all at some point. As the DO is outside the Pattern, his destruction does not mean the destruction of the Wheel. Perhaps there will just be a "new" Wheel, one that spins the Ages free from the DO. I can certainly think of ways humankind can destroy themselves and start a new age without the DO. Any survivors would have to start over from scratch. They would certainly be "those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it." Hence the turning of the Wheel.

Yet as Thom said in TSR:Chapter 20, "It cannot always be a cataclysm on the order of the Breaking." While Thom isn't actually a philosopher, I think this statement is true. We ourselves have our Age of Reason, Renaissance, Computer Age, and so on. While ours are not real Ages, could history perhaps extend so far that we will have another Renaissance? As in, the same spirit of that earlier time, just with newer things.

That's what I think it will come to. A Wheel of Time devoid of the DO, with Ages marked by our own deeds, cataclysmic or not. And if not, then linear time still bound by the Wheel, thoughts and fate repeating, yet surrounded by the new.

8

PillowFriends: 2006-09-06

**The Wheel makes the Pattern. No Wheel -- no Pattern. No Wheel, no time, no reality, no existance. **

The Wheel makes the Pattern, true, but no Pattern doesn't mean no existence. If the DO wins, breaks the Wheel and remakes things in his image, obviously things haven't ceased to exist. Rand could break the Wheel and fundamentally change existence by destroying the Pattern without destroying existence itself.

**One last thing: If your theory is to be correct, one quote you used stuck out to me from The World of Robert Jordan’s The Wheel of Time:

"No one inside and of the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern."

Therefore, if Rand could possible destroy the wheel, he would have to OUTSIDE the pattern. This could perhaps be achieved by dying? Which would fulfill that prophecy about his blood on the rocks... But then I don't know how by dying he will live again, so that doesn't work so well.**

I like what Traveler says here. Furthermore, being outside the Pattern to destroy it, the Creator could then have a direct hand in Rand's fate, perhaps allowing him to be the final soul resurrected for the rest of time as a reward for his services.

9

Callandor: 2006-09-07

**The Wheel makes the Pattern, true, but no Pattern doesn't mean no existence. If the DO wins, breaks the Wheel and remakes things in his image, obviously things haven't ceased to exist. Rand could break the Wheel and fundamentally change existence by destroying the Pattern without destroying existence itself.**

1. What part of the quotes I gave, as well as the one Ieyasu gave but tried to change into a completely different meaning (because it made his idea better; instead of just destroying it like it truly does), was not understood? The Wheel creates the Pattern; the Pattern is all of existance and reality for the Age. No Wheel -- no Pattern. No Pattern -- no existance or reality. It's quite simple.

2. Again, there is a very simple quote that completely negates the idea of Rand doing any such thing -- Ieyasu correctly quoted it, and then dismissed it by saying "Well, Rand will do the impossible."

3. The Wheel does four things: takes souls and puts them into bodies making new threads (from these and all threads, is the Pattern -- hence why it's all of existance and reality); controls events to maintain the balance between good and evil (ta'veren fit best here, along with Hero rebirth); controls events to bring about change (the Wheel being time itself as well I think fits well under this one); and ensures it's own survival. People are essentially pushing for the Wheel to destroy itself, and by using an already stated impossible method at that. And then dismissing any consequences of this (most notably the entire destruction of reality) as if it's nothing. Ieyasu says that there won't be fate anymore, but there's a bigger problem to that: there won't be a world anymore and there won't be time anymore.

Yeah, no more fate -- because there won't be anything. It's like being envious of a complete and total vaccuum -- "It's completely free." Well, there's nothing to be free.

**Furthermore, being outside the Pattern to destroy it, the Creator could then have a direct hand in Rand's fate, perhaps allowing him to be the final soul resurrected for the rest of time as a reward for his services.**

The Creator doesn't do anything in the series. He imprisoned the Dark One, created the world and the rules, and then left humanity on its own.

As well, what are people not getting with this quote?

**BWB: The World of Robert Jordan’s The Wheel of Time

CHAPTER: 1 - The Wheel and the Pattern

Within the influence of this Lace of Ages are not only the earth and stone of the physical world, but other worlds and universes, other dimensions, other possibilities. The Wheel touches what might be, what might have been, and what is. It touches the world of dreams as well as the world of waking.

...

The only known forces outside the Wheel and the Pattern are the Creator, who shaped the Wheel, the One Power that drives it--as well as the plan for the Great Pattern--and the Dark One, who was imprisoned outside the pattern by the Creator at the moment of creation. No one inside and of the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern. Even those who are ta'veren can only alter, but not completely change, the weave. It is believed that if he escapes his prison, the Dark One, being a creature or force beyond creation, has the ability to remake the Wheel and all of creation in his own dark image. Thus each person, especially each of those born ta'veren, must struggle to achieve his or her own best destiny to assure the balance and continuation of the Great Pattern.**

The Wheel is the center of the world; the only things outside of the Wheel and Pattern are the Creator, Dark One, and the One Power. I mean, you need to think this through people: the Wheel is what puts a soul into a body to make a new thread. That is called reincarnation or rebirth. It happens to everyone ever born in this world. How would the Wheel ever do that, if souls awaiting rebirth (IE: the people that are dead) are not within it's influence?

Again, it's clearly stated what are outside the Wheel and Pattern: the Creator, the Dark One, and the One Power. Everything else is subject to the Wheel. That includes Rand. That is why it's impossible for him to destroy the Wheel: he simply can't. The only things that could possibly destroy the Wheel are just two simple things: The Creator or the Dark One. The Creator creates and moves on -- he's not going to destroy the Wheel. The Dark One is imprisoned. He get's out, he certainly seems able to destroy the Wheel -- but that again, just destroys all reality and existance. Not a good thing.

10

Githraine: 2006-09-08

The Pattern IS reality. Remember the statements about the use of Balefire in the War of the Shadow. So many threads were burned out, the Pattern almost unraveld, the world almost unravled(I dont have the quote at hand.) No Pattern, No World.

11

PillowFriends: 2006-09-11

Callandor, for the most part I agree with you. I like the theory, though, and was stretching to find some validity for it. However, there is still one point you make I don't fully agree with.

TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 15 - Kinslayer

**This time the Wheel will be broken whatever you do, and the world remade to a new mold. Serve me! Serve Shai'tan, or be destroyed forever!"**

"... the world remade ..." This quote suggests the world, let alone reality, will not completely disappear forever with the breaking of the Wheel, but instead, will be changed. In this case, the DO destroys the Wheel, thus the world and reality will be remade in his image. As I said, for the most part I agree with your case, but I think this quote leaves a little wiggle room for Ieyasu's theory.

12

Callandor: 2006-09-11

**This quote suggests the world, let alone reality, will not completely disappear forever with the breaking of the Wheel, but instead, will be changed. In this case, the DO destroys the Wheel, thus the world and reality will be remade in his image.**

The Creator, a being outside of the Wheel and Pattern, created the Wheel and the world. The Dark One is also a being outside of the Wheel and Pattern, hence why it's taken for granted that he can destroy the Wheel. He can just as easily make his own copy of utter chaos, if he so chooses.

There's also the entire option that Ishamael is deluding himself and the Dark One will immediately say "Screw you all." and upon destroying the Wheel he will simply just destroy reality and that's that. But even accepting Ishamael's words, doesn't mean that destroying the Wheel just keeps the world there.

13

PillowFriends: 2006-09-13

**There's also the entire option that Ishamael is deluding himself and the Dark One will immediately say "Screw you all." and upon destroying the Wheel he will simply just destroy reality and that's that.**

Very true, could be, although I doubt it.

**The Dark One is also a being outside of the Wheel and Pattern, hence why it's taken for granted that he can destroy the Wheel. He can just as easily make his own copy of utter chaos, if he so chooses.**

Well, he's not called the Dark Creator. I'd say it's more likely that destroying the Wheel is the only way for him to remake the world in his immage. Of course, that's ALMOST as speculative as saying he can create another wheel.

14

Ieyasu: 2006-09-13

Thanks for taking the time to read and for the replies, I appreciate the feedback.

Now, onto them:

** I have a problem with the idea since we know the Wheel is what weaves the Pattern, how can there still be a Pattern, without the Wheel?**

Well, pattern (post-wheel breaking) might be too strong of a word, without a hand to govern the spinning, no coherent pattern would be formed. It would be more of a NON-pattern.

It’s the pattern itself which provides the predictability (thus predestiny) to the world. A broken wheel world would have an age lace, or a tapestry, there just wouldn’t be any cohesion or predictable pattern to it.

** So, are you suggesting that the Wheel knows that Rand will break it and that the Wheel would allow for it?**

No, I don’t think the wheel knows or would allow for it; however, I think the Creator does and would:

*** EOTW: chapter 51 pg 636

“…This has to end!"

IT IS NOT HERE.

It was not Rand’s thought, making his skull vibrate.

I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL.”***

I think the wheel has its own plan for Rand sealing the prison up and continuing along its normal spinning, however, I think Rand has the ability to ‘do what must be done, if he will’ and what must be done is: break the wheel.

** The idea that the DO can break the Wheel stems from the belief that the DO is outside of the Wheel and therefore the Wheel has no ability to control the DO as it would a thread inside the Pattern.**

So is saidin and Saidar, which every channeler uses…

** I really wish you were right, but RJ (unfortunately) said in one of the Q/As, that this turning is just one of many and not special ... which IMHO rules out things like Rand loosing or gaining a linear time.**

I know and have the exact quote you are thinking of, and in truth, I wrote this prior to seeing this particular quote, and when/if it gets posted, I will address it at that time, as there is a simple work-around for it.

** Along with beng the pattern of fate, the Pattern is the substance of reality for the Age. No Pattern, no Wheel -- no world. So, I can't see Rand destroying all existance, even if it wasn't said to be impossible already.**

Completely false.

The world can exist without the wheel just fine, so can reality and everything else. The DO is constantly quoted as wanting to ‘break the wheel of time’ himself, in order to remake reality in his image.

It’s the wheel it’s self that keeps man kind locked in this epic and endless struggle to oppose the darkone…

**1. The series is all about balance -- it's one of the main themes. With no balance at all, just what does that do to the theme?**

This world already is imbalanced. The DO already affects things much more directly than the creator. In removing his ability to remake the world, you negate him to the same self-imposed non-intervention that the creator himself is taking.

**2. This is not the Last Battle. We know that already. The Light wins and Ages continue.**

Yes, we already know that. I'm not saying this is the last battle mankind will participate in. However, I am saying that this will be the last time humanity will have to battle the DO directly to force him out of their world. This is the Last Battle between man vs. shaitan.

** The Wheel makes the Pattern. No Wheel -- no Pattern. No Wheel, no time, no reality, no existance.**

Wrong. The wheel forces the pattern into the same repeating 7 ages. The pattern exists on its own, all the quotes you just provided prove the pattern is what holds reality together, and the wheel is what forces that pattern into the same 7 variant themes.

** And why is that, again without an existance or reality?**

The same way the DO will break the wheel of time and REMAKE THE WORLD.

Reality doesn’t change, existence doesn’t wink out, merely the wheel is knocked off track and it no longer forces humanity to be predestined and locked into the same 7 ages.

**But here's just where simple thinking comes in. The Wheel works to prevent the Dark One from getting free of his prison.**

Perhaps from your limited point of view, yes. I tend to think the wheel works to ensure mankind finds, bores, patches, and then fixes the DO prison.

I tend to think it’s the wheel that forces the DO to be able to influence the world, not as you suggest to prevent him from escaping.

** It works to maintain the balance of the Pattern, so as to make sure the above does not happen.**

There is no balance. The DO obviously is taking a hand in influencing the world to a level that the creator is NOT. The only way balance can be achieved is to limit the DO’s ability to get free, which breaking the wheel (which is what causes his prison to be found, drilled, patched, fixed, over and over again) would certainly create. It forces the DO to take an observatory role, exactly like the creator.

It works currently to further imbalance, and enable the DO to come close (at least in the AoL and current age) to breaking free INTO the real world.

** By making absolutely no balance. It's similar to having a scale with whatever weight system on each end, and then tossing away the scale, the weights, and just having empty space and claiming "It's balanced."**

You think the world is balanced now? How about in the AoL? Or other ages?

The world is FAR from balanced; the DO takes an active role in reality, where the creator does NOT.

Breaking the wheel (which causes the various ages in which the darkone is found, drilled, patched, sealed, fixed, and whatever else occurs in the unmentioned ages) forces those 7 ages which bring about the near release of the DO to no longer occur, creating a true balance in which both ‘deities’ are regulated to observers, not active participants in the world.

Good and evil will still exist outside of the DO, (aridol, the finns, etc) so balance between good vs. evil is still possible, however it balances out the darkone’s active participation vs. the creators active nonparticipation.

** Not bad at all...unless what Prince of Ravens says is true...the other thing I thought works for you is from lanfear, I think in the Shadow Rising, where she says it has never happened before, that a man is born at a specific time, doing specific things according to prophecy.**

It was graendal who said it to lanfear, and they are not valid sources, as their resources are limited to the books on hand during the AoL. They don’t have accurate records from the previous 2nd age or previous 3rd age etc. as far as they know, it has never occurred before, however as far as *we* know, it happened in the last turning of the wheel (and the one before that, and the one before that, etc etc etc)

** Also, even if this age is just like the others till now, it may still end differently.**

Hehe, that’s the ‘simple work-around’ for the quote prince of ravens alludes to…

** Though i also don't see how there could be a 'pattern' without a wheel...it would just be a bunch of thread going of into the void randomly, which is also a pattern of sorts really.**

Well, pattern might not be the best word (without a wheel to guide it INTO a coherent pattern) at this point, it would be a random tapestry, like… oh, I don’t know, say… the real world? ;)

** Also it would have the adjuntct that no one would be able to channel at all as there is nothing to channel, as the power wouldn't be needed to turn the wheel.**

Yes I can see the breaking of the wheel resulting in no further channeling, but it doesn’t have to be that way. The power powers the wheel, but just because its not turning the wheel doesn’t mean its just going to POOF go away. Neh?

** Therefore, if Rand could possible destroy the wheel, he would have to OUTSIDE the pattern.**

The power is one of 3 things known to be OUTSIDE the pattern.

If he uses the great saagreal he has its feasible for him to use enough of the power to knock the wheel off its course… though I don’t really want to speculate exactly how he is going to break the wheel… my point is just to draw the connection between the one power being both OUTSIDE the pattern, as well as the driving force that POWERS the wheel, so if he does break the wheel, I would think it would be with the power (somehow).

** As I have already written, I don't think Rand will break the wheel, but I could imagine one way to get outside the pattern: enter the prison of the DO - he is imprisoned outside the pattern, right?**

This could work as well, but with the power defined as one of the 3 KNOWN (and I think that ‘known’ word is pretty significant as well) forces OUTSIDE the pattern, as well as the force the powers the wheel, I would think its more likely to be something he does WITH the power to break the wheel, rather than somehow traveling outside the pattern and effecting it from the DO’s prison (besides if a mere mortal could accomplish this from within the darkone’s prison… what’s stopping the darkone himself from doing this as well?)

** The booming voice in Rand's head at Tarwin's Gap in EotW makes me think that the DO will have to be dealt with once and for all at some point.**

Me too, and the fact that it gives him a choice is very interesting too.

I think there are two possible outcomes:

1. The pattern forces Rand into its predestined ‘fix’ plan, Rand fixes the bore, and the WoT rolls on till the next time…

-OR-

2. There is an alternative ‘choice’ that Rand (or any dragon incarnation) has available to them. That choice is to break the wheel, this choice is an ability granted to the dragon soul by the creator

Should Rand not choose option #2, then the default pattern-dictated ending comes about and the next dragon will have the opportunity to do as the pattern wills, or to eliminate the wheel.

** Yet as Thom said in TSR:Chapter 20, "It cannot always be a cataclysm on the order of the Breaking." While Thom isn't actually a philosopher, I think this statement is true. We ourselves have our Age of Reason, Renaissance, Computer Age, and so on. While ours are not real Ages, could history perhaps extend so far that we will have another Renaissance? As in, the same spirit of that earlier time, just with newer things. **

I don’t recall what ended the first age, other than the discovery of the power, but I think every ‘Age of Legends’ and every 3rd age, ends in a cataclysmic struggle of worldly magnitude. Can’t say for certain about the other ages however.

** The Wheel makes the Pattern, true, but no Pattern doesn't mean no existence. If the DO wins, breaks the Wheel and remakes things in his image, obviously things haven't ceased to exist. Rand could break the Wheel and fundamentally change existence by destroying the Pattern without destroying existence itself.**

No, the wheel weaves the pattern into 7 specific ages over and over again. Removing the wheel is removing the pre-programmed hand on the loom that’s spinning out the same 7 tapestries…

I agree that breaking the wheel wont negate existence, it wont even destroy the pattern, it just will no longer govern it any further. And without a wheel to force man to eventually find the prison, drill a hole into it, patch it, then fix it, I don’t think the DO will be able to escape. He will be locked up without anyone to come looking for him in the future…

Also, I don’t think destroying the wheel would destroy the pattern itself, merely destroy the governing hand locking it into a repetitive predestined 7 ages.

** I like what Traveler says here. Furthermore, being outside the Pattern to destroy it, the Creator could then have a direct hand in Rand's fate, perhaps allowing him to be the final soul resurrected for the rest of time as a reward for his services. **

Could go down that way, but there is no need really. Just use the power (which is outside the pattern already) that drives the wheel in some way, neh?

**1. What part of the quotes I gave, as well as the one Ieyasu gave but tried to change into a completely different meaning (because it made his idea better; instead of just destroying it like it truly does), was not understood? The Wheel creates the Pattern; the Pattern is all of existance and reality for the Age. No Wheel -- no Pattern. No Pattern -- no existance or reality. It's quite simple. **

It doesn’t destroy it; it destroys reality AS IT IS KNOWN TO EXIST.

That doesn’t mean existence and reality itself is destroyed.

**2. Again, there is a very simple quote that completely negates the idea of Rand doing any such thing -- Ieyasu correctly quoted it, and then dismissed it by saying "Well, Rand will do the impossible."**

No, I contradicted it with the prophecies/foretelling that he will do impossible things.

There is a difference between dismissing a quote and contradicting it with another quote, as you well know Callandor.

**3. The Wheel does four things: takes souls and puts them into bodies making new threads (from these and all threads, is the Pattern -- hence why it's all of existance and reality); controls events to maintain the balance between good and evil (ta'veren fit best here, along with Hero rebirth); controls events to bring about change (the Wheel being time itself as well I think fits well under this one); and ensures it's own survival. People are essentially pushing for the Wheel to destroy itself, and by using an already stated impossible method at that. And then dismissing any consequences of this (most notably the entire destruction of reality) as if it's nothing. Ieyasu says that there won't be fate anymore, but there's a bigger problem to that: there won't be a world anymore and there won't be time anymore.**

The darkone doesn’t control the wheel, and he takes souls and puts them into bodies…so the wheel isn’t exclusive in this regard…

Matter of fact, moggy does this very thing to Birgitte as well, neh? Therefore, the wheel isn’t the only thing that can control souls. (or put them into bodies for that matter as well)

The wheel doesn’t create anything. It doesn’t create new threads, it doesn’t create any threads at all, it merely weaves the threads into a pattern, however they are already there. Already in existence, the wheel then acts on that existence, governs it and forces it into place with the rest of the pattern.

As for balance, the wheel tries to maintain balance, but it in fact creates IMBALANCE by allowing the DO to have an active participation in the pattern itself. As long as the wheel is in existence and the creator purposely takes an inactive role in reality, there can NEVER be balance.

As for time, time is an illusion brought on by a finite life span. Time doesn’t exist anyway. But that’s a whole separate conversation and more suited for the non-WOT board.

There will still be a world Callandor, there just wont be fate/predestiny (or true prophecies/foretellings/viewings oh sure, people might write some, much like Nostradamus, or that guy who advised pres. Wilson, etc… and some might actually be right but like in our world, it would be merely a coincidence…)

The wheel doesn’t MAKE anything; it uses what’s already there and forces it to its will.

Its an automatic loom, with a warp and a weft etc… its got a pre-programmed set of patterns that it spins out, by destroying/knocking of its track you take the ‘hand’ off the loom that’s guiding the pre-programmed patterns…

The world keeps spinning… the people keep living… the sun rises, the sun sets… tides ebb and flow… the moon waxes and wanes…

Life goes on… freely!

** The Creator doesn't do anything in the series. He imprisoned the Dark One, created the world and the rules, and then left humanity on its own.**

Oh really? He hasn’t done anything in the series?

*** EOTW: chapter 51 pg 636

“…This has to end!"

IT IS NOT HERE.

It was not Rand’s thought, making his skull vibrate.

I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL.”***

Who is that speaking Callandor?

**As well, what are people not getting with this quote?**

What are you not getting with that quote?

I think you are not getting the fact that the POWER ITSELF IS OUTSIDE THE PATTERN.

** The Wheel is the center of the world; the only things outside of the Wheel and Pattern are the Creator, Dark One, and the One Power. I mean, you need to think this through people: the Wheel is what puts a soul into a body to make a new thread. That is called reincarnation or rebirth. It happens to everyone ever born in this world. How would the Wheel ever do that, if souls awaiting rebirth (IE: the people that are dead) are not within it's influence?**

The wheel isn’t the only thing that puts a soul into a body to make a new thread. The darkone does it as well, and so does moggy.

What is your point in brining this up? It’s obvious the wheel isn’t the ONLY force that can ‘influence’/touch/control souls…

** Again, it's clearly stated what are outside the Wheel and Pattern: the Creator, the Dark One, and the One Power. Everything else is subject to the Wheel.**

I disagree with the words ‘clearly stated’!

It clearly states the only 3 KNOWN (and that’s the key word) forces outside the pattern are those 3… but that doesn’t mean they are the ONLY things outside the wheel…

But nothing else NEEDS to be outside the wheel. Not Rand, nothing. The power itself is all the connection needed to break the wheel/knock it off track. The power itself is OUTSIDE the wheel, and furthermore, DRIVES the wheel. That’s all it takes.

15

JakOShadows: 2006-09-13

Ieyasu:

I like the amount of research you put into this, but I think Callandor has a point. There are some fundamental facts of how this world works which you are glossing over with the 'Rand will do nine impossible things' quote. They could be anything that no one has thought of to try, why make it something so fundamentally different from the idea/message of the books.

But lets put that aside for a second. There are two other problems I have with your last argument.

The pattern is balanced. Yes, the DO has a direct influence and the creator choose not to touch the pattern at all. But the creator does have ta'vern, which the wheel guides as it sees fit so that it can maintain the balance and make certain events happen. It is a constant struggle and at times of change like now, it may seem like there is no balance at all; but if the pattern has maintained itself for all these numerous turnings then it has to be considered balanced.

Now to address the one power. You mention a lot that since the one power is outside of the wheel it can break the wheel. But the problem with that is that first of all the wheel is very powerful. So if Rand uses a large amount of the one power to try and break the wheel, the wheel can still the use the same large amount to stop it. It would have to be an unimaginable amount of power to knock the wheel of its course, considering how large a pool of one power it has to draw from. And also, Rand, the person directing it is in the pattern, and so even if he does have the option of trying, everything he channels at is controlled by the pattern. Which means that the pattern always has means of healing itself, no matter what Rand does.

Most of what your saying is possible; I believe Rand does have a lot of options and power on what to do as it gets closer to the LB. But he still has to work within the fundamental laws of nature since he is still in the pattern, and as a result, I believe that makes it impossible for your theory to work. You can't just dismiss all the evidence and quotes of how the wheel works by saying Rand will do the impossible. Because as far as we have seen, no one can break those rules or anything or that nature. There's no working your way around that.

16

Callandor: 2006-09-14

**Well, he's not called the Dark Creator. I'd say it's more likely that destroying the Wheel is the only way for him to remake the world in his immage. Of course, that's ALMOST as speculative as saying he can create another wheel.**

I was just listing possiblities -- but the point still stands that destroying the Wheel destroys reality and existance.

**It’s the pattern itself which provides the predictability (thus predestiny) to the world. A broken wheel world would have an age lace, or a tapestry, there just wouldn’t be any cohesion or predictable pattern to it.**

Quotes say very much differently.

**I think the wheel has its own plan for Rand sealing the prison up and continuing along its normal spinning, however, I think Rand has the ability to ‘do what must be done, if he will’ and what must be done is: break the wheel.**

Right. And we're supposed to just believe this supposition in light of the other quotes, with nothing at all going for it?

Tam: ** The idea that the DO can break the Wheel stems from the belief that the DO is outside of the Wheel and therefore the Wheel has no ability to control the DO as it would a thread inside the Pattern.**

Ieyasu: **So is saidin and Saidar, which every channeler uses…**

Indeed it is, but that completely misses Tam's point. You're suggesting that Rand, a person within and of the Pattern, is going to break the Wheel. The entire reason it's believed that only the Dark One can do this is because he is beyond the Wheel and Pattern.

So, how would Rand do this, since he is at the hands of the Wheel without question? It's the point that you're essentially saying the Wheel is working towards it's own destruction -- what you yourself said you don't think the Wheel would allow. So, how would Rand accomplish something, since he is not the Dark One?

**The world can exist without the wheel just fine, so can reality and everything else. The DO is constantly quoted as wanting to ‘break the wheel of time’ himself, in order to remake reality in his image.

It’s the wheel it’s self that keeps man kind locked in this epic and endless struggle to oppose the darkone...**

Yes, you've completely refuted the point... except for the part of actually posting evidence.

**This world already is imbalanced. The DO already affects things much more directly than the creator. In removing his ability to remake the world, you negate him to the same self-imposed non-intervention that the creator himself is taking.**

Read what you are saying. The world is off balance now -- I would agree: that is why there are three ta'veren in the world as of this moment, working to correct that balance. Destroying reality, existance, and time itself is not balance.

You're again saying "Well, there's nothing there, so it's balanced."

**Yes, we already know that. I'm not saying this is the last battle mankind will participate in. However, I am saying that this will be the last time humanity will have to battle the DO directly to force him out of their world. This is the Last Battle between man vs. shaitan.**

Right... Kinda defeating the entire part of calling it the Last Battle, and using your exclamations. That, and not dealing with the evidence provided that says this is impossible.

**Wrong. The wheel forces the pattern into the same repeating 7 ages. The pattern exists on its own, all the quotes you just provided prove the pattern is what holds reality together, and the wheel is what forces that pattern into the same 7 variant themes.**

What part of "The fabric it weaves is constructed from the threads of lives and events, interlaced into a design, the Great Pattern, which is the whole of existence and reality, past, present, and future." did you not understand?

The Wheel makes the threads that make up the Pattern -- it is what reincarnates people, and makes so that they are threads. No Wheel, no Pattern. And, quite important, no time.

**BWB: The World of Robert Jordan’s The Wheel of Time

CHAPTER: 1 - The Wheel and the Pattern

The Great Wheel is the very heart of all time. But even the Wheel requires energy to maintain itself, and its pattern. This energy comes from the True Source, from which the One Power may be drawn. Both the True Source and the One Power are made up of two conflicting yet complementary parts: saidin, the male half, and saidar, the female half. Working both together and against one another within the True Source, it is saidin and saidar which provide the driving force that turns the Wheel of Time.**

Again, the Wheel makes the Pattern. No Wheel, no Pattern, no existance, no reality, and no time. There is nothing left if the Wheel is destroyed. Simply claiming that there can be, is not good enough.

**The same way the DO will break the wheel of time and REMAKE THE WORLD.

Reality doesn’t change, existence doesn’t wink out, merely the wheel is knocked off track and it no longer forces humanity to be predestined and locked into the same 7 ages.**

The quotes I've presented seem to contradict that, or at least to establish that there is no true point if it were to occur -- there'd be nothing. Again, maybe the Dark One would get into a "Creator mode" and establish the world he wants. But there wouldn't be anything of this world left.

**Perhaps from your limited point of view, yes. I tend to think the wheel works to ensure mankind finds, bores, patches, and then fixes the DO prison.**

Uh, how is that not exactly what I said in my "limited view?" The Wheel works to prevent the Dark One from getting free of his prison. His influence may grow at different time points, but he'll never get free.

**3. The Wheel does four things: takes souls and puts them into bodies making new threads (from these and all threads, is the Pattern -- hence why it's all of existance and reality); controls events to maintain the balance between good and evil (ta'veren fit best here, along with Hero rebirth); controls events to bring about change (the Wheel being time itself as well I think fits well under this one); and ensures it's own survival. People are essentially pushing for the Wheel to destroy itself, and by using an already stated impossible method at that. And then dismissing any consequences of this (most notably the entire destruction of reality) as if it's nothing. Ieyasu says that there won't be fate anymore, but there's a bigger problem to that: there won't be a world anymore and there won't be time anymore.**

This was posted six days before your statement of your view, and I've posted far more in detail about how and why this works in other threads both on the main site and message boards -- discussions I know you participated in.

**There is no balance. The DO obviously is taking a hand in influencing the world to a level that the creator is NOT. The only way balance can be achieved is to limit the DO’s ability to get free, which breaking the wheel (which is what causes his prison to be found, drilled, patched, fixed, over and over again) would certainly create. It forces the DO to take an observatory role, exactly like the creator.**

Uh, no. I mean, come on, you were just saying that it's the Wheel that forces the Dark One to influence the world -- however you want to admit that, you're saying it's the Wheel that can ultimately control the Dark One's actions.

I mean you're saying that it's the Wheel works to ensure that mankind "finds, bores, patches, and then fixes the DO prison."

Suddenly this situation is somehow different than how many other Ages and turnings there have been in the past? Suddenly the Wheel no longer has the iron-grip control over human actions (and your tacit agreement that it can control the Dark One's actions) in order to bring things into balance? If this is somehow the natural working of things, why have there been so many turnings without this action of destroying the Wheel?

The balance is off in the Pattern, yes (there isn't "no balance" -- that would only occur if there was nothing, which is your ultimate result). The Wheel is working to correct this. Again, why on earth do you think Rand, Mat, and Perrin are doing this? The Wheel is working towards the balance it requires, and that does not require the destruction of the Wheel itself. That's just a completely fundamental misunderstanding of how the Wheel works.

**It works currently to further imbalance, and enable the DO to come close (at least in the AoL and current age) to breaking free INTO the real world.**

So, it's working to get the Dark One close to getting free -- but then Rand is going to destroy the Wheel, not the Dark One?

Again, I've gone briefly to this point here and far more indepth elsewhere, but the Wheel controls the Dark One's actions -- it controls his influence. Yes, since the series has begun, his influence has grown. But I don't see how that somehow means the Wheel has to be destroyed.

**You think the world is balanced now? How about in the AoL? Or other ages?**

Did I say that at all?

No, the world is not in balance now -- that is why there are three ta'veren in the world working toward balance.

Here's my point since you seemed to miss it: What you are stipulating is that there will be balance by making no balance. You're advocating for the destruction of the Wheel, Pattern, existance, reality, and time itself and claiming "Well, it will be balanced then." In incredibly fine terms, you are right: nothing balances nothing quite well. I have absolutely nothing in either of my hands -- they're balanced. There's also nothing in my hands.

**Breaking the wheel (which causes the various ages in which the darkone is found, drilled, patched, sealed, fixed, and whatever else occurs in the unmentioned ages) forces those 7 ages which bring about the near release of the DO to no longer occur, creating a true balance in which both ‘deities’ are regulated to observers, not active participants in the world.

Good and evil will still exist outside of the DO, (aridol, the finns, etc) so balance between good vs. evil is still possible, however it balances out the darkone’s active participation vs. the creators active nonparticipation.**

Yikes, this is just wrong.

1. You keep saying this "near release." You're right -- it's always a near release. Have you every stopped to think why, rather than a complete release? Because the Wheel controls what occurs (again, the Patter of an Age is predetermined by the Wheel). It balances everything. You have it correct: the Wheel controls the events that make the near release of the Dark One occur in seven Ages over and over again. Yet that is now for some reason the motivation for destroying the Wheel? The Wheel is doing it's job yet again -- so it now must destroy itself?

2. Again, this "true balance" of yours isn't balance at all, except in the sense that doesn't amount to anything. A scale with nothing on it is balanced if it is set correct; yet there is still nothing there. With no Wheel, there's nothing at all, so there is balance -- but there is again nothing to balance there.

3. Your examples of evil existing outside of the Dark One do not satisfy. The Dark One is the root of all evil:

**TITLE: Eye of the World

CHAPTER: GLOSSARY

Dark One: Most common name, used in every land, for Shai'tan: the source of evil, antithesis of the Creator. Imprisoned by the Creator at the moment of Creation in a prison at Shayol Ghul; an attempt to free him from that prison brought about the War of the Shadow, the tainting of saidin, the Breaking of the World, and the end of the Age of Legends.**

Aridhol is not exempted from this. Why did the evil of Shadar Logoth start in the first place? As a reaction against the Shadow by using it's own means. No Dark One then, there would be no Shadar Logoth evil.

But it is good to see that you do not bother to defend your "Rand can do the impossible" lunacy.

**The power is one of 3 things known to be OUTSIDE the pattern.

If he uses the great saagreal he has its feasible for him to use enough of the power to knock the wheel off its course… though I don’t really want to speculate exactly how he is going to break the wheel… my point is just to draw the connection between the one power being both OUTSIDE the pattern, as well as the driving force that POWERS the wheel, so if he does break the wheel, I would think it would be with the power (somehow).**

I don't see why you cannot speculate on what Rand will do, since this all is speculation and assertion anyway. Yes, the One Power is not apart of the Wheel or Pattern. But look at the flaw in your thought process here. Rand, a person inside and of the Pattern, and hence controlled by the Wheel, is going to use the Power in a way that is either at the Wheel's complete doing (which you already said before is not what you believe) or beyond the Wheel's control.

Apparently, Rand is beyond the Wheel's control to you. I can't see how you can even come close to say this, but it's the only thing that makes coherent sense out of all this (and still is completely false).

**Should Rand not choose option #2, then the default pattern-dictated ending comes about and the next dragon will have the opportunity to do as the pattern wills, or to eliminate the wheel.**

Rand's actions do not come down to choice -- he's essenuital the hand of the Wheel in motion; Mat and Perrin to lesser degrees.

**No, the wheel weaves the pattern into 7 specific ages over and over again. Removing the wheel is removing the pre-programmed hand on the loom that’s spinning out the same 7 tapestries…**

Yes, also by destroying the threads it makes, the Pattern in makes, existance, reality, and time itself.

Care to tell me what is left after that? The Dark One, the Creator, One Power, and... what?

**It doesn’t destroy it; it destroys reality AS IT IS KNOWN TO EXIST.

That doesn’t mean existence and reality itself is destroyed.**

And people claim that I read into quotes what I see....

Let me quote you, Ieyasu, to point out this major problem:

***TEOTW Glossary pg 664

Great Pattern: The Wheel of Time eaves the Pattern of the Ages into the Great Pattern, WHICH IS THE WHOLE OF EXISTANCE AND REALITY, PAST PRESANT AND FUTURE. Also known as the Lace of Ages*** (emphasis mine)

You seemed to carry a lot of emphasis for that section. Care to tell me where it says the words you just said above?

I'll quote myself, both because I love to do it, it's simple, and it serves to further my point:

**BWB: The World of Robert Jordan’s The Wheel of Time

CHAPTER: 1 - The Wheel and the Pattern

What is the Wheel of Time? Imagine a great cosmic loom in the shape of a seven-spoked wheel, slowly spinning through eternity, weaving the fabric of the universe. The Wheel, put in place by the Creator, is time itself, ever turning and returning. The fabric it weaves is constructed from the threads of lives and events, interlaced into a design, the Great Pattern, which is the whole of existence and reality, past, present, and future.**

Care to tell me where what you said is in that quote?

The Pattern is reality and existance -- it's not "as we know it to exist." It's the whole of reality and existance. Without it, there is no reality and no existance. And what weaves the threads that make up the Pattern? The Wheel.

And if you still for some reason do not accept this:

**TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time

CHAPTER: The Wheel and the Pattern

The Wheel of Time turns, and ages come and go, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the age that gave it birth comes again. So begins each saga within the World of the Wheel, a universe in which the major controlling factor is the Wheel of Time and the Great Pattern it spins. A pattern in which light and dark, good and evil, male and female, and life and death struggle for balance within the weave of destiny.**

Wheel makes the Pattern.

**No, I contradicted it with the prophecies/foretelling that he will do impossible things.

There is a difference between dismissing a quote and contradicting it with another quote, as you well know Callandor.**

Right... You completely contradicted it, by showing... what? That it doesn't deal with the quote at all?

Rand will do impossible things, apparently. Where is it said he will destroy the Wheel? Where is the contradiction, Ieyasu?

**The darkone doesn’t control the wheel, and he takes souls and puts them into bodies…so the wheel isn’t exclusive in this regard…**

I fail to see where the Dark One "makes new threads." He takes bodies, removes the souls, and puts another soul into that empty body -- he doesn't make a new thread. Where is the reincarnation? The Dark One transmigrates his Forsaken.

**Matter of fact, moggy does this very thing to Birgitte as well, neh? Therefore, the wheel isn’t the only thing that can control souls. (or put them into bodies for that matter as well)**

I'd really like to see how you can show that Moghedien put Birgitte's soul into a new body (let alone that it wasn't the Wheel controlling the event in any case).

**The wheel doesn’t create anything. It doesn’t create new threads, it doesn’t create any threads at all, it merely weaves the threads into a pattern, however they are already there. Already in existence, the wheel then acts on that existence, governs it and forces it into place with the rest of the pattern.**

Uh huh. So, let me get this straight. Every person in all of existance, according to you, is just sitting ~there~, already in existance, and would remain untouched by the Wheel if it was destroyed. The Wheel simply takes "them" and puts them into the world.

So, how are children born? What happens to people when they die? Jordan seems to have distinct notion:

**Q: So threads and souls are the same thing?

A: Err, not the same thing, but they must coexist. The thread can be removed; you die in this world. You die and the soul remains to come again and begin another thread. The soul disappears from this Gray Man, it's gone. Think of the Dark One as having eaten it. It's a fiction, but a convenient fiction for the moment. The thread of the Gray Man remains until the Gray Man dies, physically.**

And when do souls enter the body?

**H: When a soul is reborn, at what point does it enter the body?

RJ: Hmm… I’d have to say as a fetus. When the body becomes capable of sustaining life.**

So, what exactly is occuring, if a soul must co-exist with a thread, if threads stop when people die, and souls are put back into bodies as a fetus to begin another thread?

And just what do you suppose is doing that? Well, what is the Pattern made up of? Threads. And what makes the Pattern? The Wheel.

**As for balance, the wheel tries to maintain balance, but it in fact creates IMBALANCE by allowing the DO to have an active participation in the pattern itself. As long as the wheel is in existence and the creator purposely takes an inactive role in reality, there can NEVER be balance.**

1. Again, the Wheel also controls events to bring about change. You're entire reason for saying the balance is off, is that the Dark One has strong influence. He has strong influence to bring about change -- that is why he even has an effect on the world: because the Bore was made. Quite a change.

2. It's quite funny that you say there can never be balance, but Jordan says there is quite easily:

**Q: Yeah, and how do their threads work?

A: The threads work in the way, in the same way that the thread of any living thing works. It is part of the Pattern. They are not outside of the Pattern. Neither are the Forsaken. But the Pattern in a thing that is open, that's change. It is not a matter of the lives being forced necessarily. It's wide, you have the Pattern, the Heroes that are bound to the Wheel, they're not always heroes in the way of someone who rides in galloping with a sword, or carries out daring rescues. The people, the Heroes who are bound to the Wheel, are the corrective mechanisms. Human behaviour is throwing the Pattern out. It's throwing the balance off. And the Wheel spins out the proper correctives. Put everything back in the balance. So not even the Forsaken are apart from that, they're not outside. The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither affected by the Pattern.**

**As for time, time is an illusion brought on by a finite life span. Time doesn’t exist anyway. But that’s a whole separate conversation and more suited for the non-WOT board.**

The Wheel is the heart of time. Hence why it is called the Wheel of Time.

**The wheel doesn’t MAKE anything; it uses what’s already there and forces it to its will.**

You are wrong.

**Who is that speaking Callandor?**

No idea. Care to show how you know it's the Creator?

And I'd really like to see how it's "doing" anything, in any case.

**I think you are not getting the fact that the POWER ITSELF IS OUTSIDE THE PATTERN.**

I don't think you're getting what is being said here. What is done with the One Power, without a channeler? It would drive the Wheel, and that's all. A channeler uses it. A person within and of the Pattern uses the One Power. Since they're within and of the Pattern, they're under the control of the Wheel. So, tell me Ieyasu, why would the Wheel allow anyone to use the One Power to destroy the Wheel (assuming the channeler can even do this in the first place, truly)? I can see two reasons:

1. The Wheel is planning for it's own destruction. I've already said that this is a preposterous idea and that the Wheel controls what goes on for it's own survival. As well, you yourself have already said you don't believe this one.

2. It wouldn't.

Unless you wish to enlighten me to some other reason why the Wheel would be allowing for it's own destruction, yet somehow not, no one within and of the Pattern can destroy the Wheel, let alone with the One Power.

So, again, what are people not getting with that quote?

**The wheel isn’t the only thing that puts a soul into a body to make a new thread. The darkone does it as well, and so does moggy.**

No to both.

**It clearly states the only 3 KNOWN (and that’s the key word) forces outside the pattern are those 3… but that doesn’t mean they are the ONLY things outside the wheel…**

Of course -- there's only three things outside of the Wheel, except for suppositions that Ieyasu likes to entertain.

**But nothing else NEEDS to be outside the wheel. Not Rand, nothing. The power itself is all the connection needed to break the wheel/knock it off track. The power itself is OUTSIDE the wheel, and furthermore, DRIVES the wheel. That’s all it takes.**

Yes, the One Power is outside of the Wheel and Pattern, as stated. Yes, the One Power drives the Wheel.

And...?

How is this somehow the death knell for the Wheel? Without anyone channeling the One Power, all it does is drive the Wheel. Anyone that channels the One Power is inside and of the Pattern, and therefore subject to the Wheel. You've already agreed the Wheel wouldn't destroy itself, so just what is your grand solution to get past this obvious impossibility?

17

PillowFriends: 2006-09-14

**As for time, time is an illusion brought on by a finite life span. Time doesn’t exist anyway. But that’s a whole separate conversation and more suited for the non-WOT board.**

Come on, Ieyasu, you can't state your opinion and then suggest we shouldn't discuss it further. Time does exist, it's part of the fabric of our existence that makes up the four dimensions of the space-time reality. You have the right to your opinion, but I think most people will side with Einstein, Steven Hawking and countless other scientists.

18

PillowFriends: 2006-09-18



**Uh, how is that not exactly what I said in my "limited view?" The Wheel works to prevent the Dark One from getting free of his prison. His influence may grow at different time points, but he'll never get free.**

I don't know how many times the Wheel has spun, maybe infinitely. The problem I have with what you said above, Callandor, "... but he'll never get free.", is that the DO is outside the Pattern and remembers each and every attempt he makes at getting out of his prison. One, I'd have to say if there was absolutely no way he was going to get free, he'd have to know it, between his countless attempts at getting free and his "Creator-like" understanding of the Wheel and the Pattern, and he would just give up and purely focus on wreaking as much havoc as possible from where he's at. Two, since he's obviously not giving up, he must see that there is a way, some way, for him to escape. With each and every turning of the Wheel that goes by, since his memory is not erased, he may be learning and getting closer and closer to his goal. The above is mostly speculation, but in my opinion, if there was a zero percent change of the DO ever, EVER, escaping, then there would be no point to RJ's, the WoT. Again, in my opinion, there must be something special about this particular turning of the Wheel.

One other thing that came to mind (maybe it was mentioned already???) is balefile. The tool exists for Rand to destroy the Pattern, and possibly the Wheel???, as close as it is to reaching for the Power. I understand there would have to be some special circumstances allowing him freedom from the influence of the Wheel, but if enough balefire were wielded during the Last Battle, maybe, just maybe …

19

PillowFriends: 2006-09-20



**So, tell me Ieyasu, why would the Wheel allow anyone to use the One Power to destroy the Wheel (assuming the channeler can even do this in the first place, truly)?**

**TITLE: Eye of the World

CHAPTER: GLOSSARY

Dark One: Most common name, used in every land, for Shai'tan: the source of evil, ANTITHESIS of the Creator. Imprisoned by the Creator at the moment of Creation in a prison at Shayol Ghul; an attempt to free him from that prison brought about the War of the Shadow, the tainting of saidin, the Breaking of the World, and the end of the Age of Legends.**

Let’s ask why the Wheel would have allowed the attempt to free the DO at all and maybe that will help us to answer Callandor’s question above. As this quote shows (credit to Callandor), the DO is source of all evil; the ANTITHESIS of the Creator, also meaning the Creator is the source of all good. The Creator is the source of the Wheel, meaning the Wheel is good. So, if the Wheel is good, why would it allow for attempts at freeing the DO? I can see two possible answers. First, it does so to give the DO the ability to influence Randland. Some may say that this is the very reason and that it is to allow for this whole balance thing we are seeing people refer to. I disagree. The Wheel could weave any other bad or evil things it wanted into the Pattern to provide balance. But even so, I believe some people misinterpret this whole idea of balance. I think the Wheel, coming from the Creator as it did, is inherently good and is there to help balance the effects of evil which come from OUTSIDE the influence of the Wheel. And, as the quote above states as clear as is possible, the source of all evil is the DO. So, it would be much easier for the Wheel to not weave into the Pattern the attempts at freeing the DO, the Bore and all that, limiting, or eliminating, the influence of the DO on the world. Now, back to my question, why does the Wheel dictate (weave) that people try to free the DO? The other possible answer, and I believe the correct one, is that it does not. And, if it does not, there are a whole lot of people out there who are seemingly working outside the influence of the Wheel. So, if this is the case, the answer to Callandor’s question is that the Wheel may not have any choice in the matter of whether or not someone destroys it, willingly or not. I know there are other quotes that contradict what I am trying to say, but I think there is a certain logic to it (sorry if it’s not presented very clearly). I would be pleased to see some quotes (hint to Callandor) pertaining to my question about why the Wheel allows for the Bore.

20

JakOShadows: 2006-09-20

***The above is mostly speculation, but in my opinion, if there was a zero percent change of the DO ever, EVER, escaping, then there would be no point to RJ's, the WoT. Again, in my opinion, there must be something special about this particular turning of the Wheel.***

First of all, why does everyone seem to think that this has to be a special circumstance? It doesn't, we don't know for sure, but it doesn't have to be a special, unique example in all the turnings of the wheel.

And on another note, I don't think its entirely pointless either. I believe that right now, Rand is guided by the pattern whole lot to where he needs to be and what he needs to do. But I also believe that the timeline of events will reach a pivotal moment like the LB. And then there is nothing else Rand has be there for, and that's when the pattern or the creator have no control over him. If you think about it logically it makes sense. In tGH, when the HoV is blown, the pattern had to guide events so that Rand survived and went on to the next event. And from there, he won the battle at the stone of tear, so that he could move on to the next event. But once he has arrived at TG, then that is the decisive moment he has been guided to. The pattern has given him all the tools and events to help him out at this moment. So I believe at this and only this moment can he fail, no matter what happens through out the events of the age. And this could explain why the DO doesn't want any attempts to kill Rand before hand, because he knows it will be futile until the exact moment of TG. All the DO can do is set up the situation so that he has the best chance of winning at that critical moment. Now before everyone starts arguing about this, I would like to say that this all based on circumstantial evidence, so I do not think it is absolutely proven. But it makes the most sense to me, based off everyones actions and events that have occured in the book.

21

Callandor: 2006-09-20

**One, I'd have to say if there was absolutely no way he was going to get free, he'd have to know it, between his countless attempts at getting free and his "Creator-like" understanding of the Wheel and the Pattern, and he would just give up and purely focus on wreaking as much havoc as possible from where he's at.**

Ok....

1. What's to say that the Dark One simply refuses to believe he can't get free? I mean he's trapped -- what else is he going to do but try to get out, however futile that ultimately is for him?

2. Even if he's gone into a state of just trying to cause havoc... so?

**Two, since he's obviously not giving up, he must see that there is a way, some way, for him to escape.**

Just because he wants to get free doesn't mean that there actually is a way for him to win. He's got dedication, hooray! Dedication doesn't mean anything with futility.

**The above is mostly speculation, but in my opinion, if there was a zero percent change of the DO ever, EVER, escaping, then there would be no point to RJ's, the WoT. Again, in my opinion, there must be something special about this particular turning of the Wheel.**

Why would there be no point to Jordan's world if the Dark One cannot get free? It has all the point in the world, from the point of this world. The Dark One's varying influence over time and Ages is a major agent for change in the world.

And if you want to hold that this Age is somehow unique, fine. But your opinions don't matter for evidence.

**The tool exists for Rand to destroy the Pattern, and possibly the Wheel???, as close as it is to reaching for the Power. I understand there would have to be some special circumstances allowing him freedom from the influence of the Wheel, but if enough balefire were wielded during the Last Battle, maybe, just maybe …**

And again it's the point that keeps on being missed:

Channelers are people within and of the Pattern. They are subject to the Wheel's influence. Therefore, if the Wheel does not want to be destroyed (as it obviously does not), it won't allow people to do things to bring about its destruction (however incoherent the options suggested are).

I mean just look at what has already been done with balefire. An event was fated involving balefire: Mat's dying and living again. The use of balefire is completely within the Wheel's control, because it can control the channelers.

"Special circumstances allowing him freedom from the influence of the Wheel".... There is no such thing. Rand is inside and of the Pattern, and directly under the influence of the Wheel -- just like anyone else inside the Pattern. The Wheel has the ultimate control. What it wants, it gets, every -- single -- time.

22

Traveller: 2006-09-23

I am not really sure what I believe about this theory now, but if it IS true, Ieyasu, you are forgetting a quote you made yourself:

"No one inside and of the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern."

Now, when I suggested that Rand would have to be OUTSIDE the pattern to break the wheel, you dismissed this by saying:

“The power is one of 3 things known to be OUTSIDE the pattern.

If he uses the great saagreal he has its feasible for him to use enough of the power to knock the wheel off its course… though I don’t really want to speculate exactly how he is going to break the wheel… my point is just to draw the connection between the one power being both OUTSIDE the pattern, as well as the driving force that POWERS the wheel, so if he does break the wheel, I would think it would be with the power (somehow).”

The statement I used does not say that a thing outside the pattern must be used but that NO ONE INSIDE THE PATTERN CAN BREAK THE WHEEL. This means that whether or not Rand uses the One Power which is outside the pattern to break the wheel, he MUST be outside as the quote says.

If it is possible for him to break the wheel, he must be outside the pattern. Simple as.

23

Callandor: 2006-09-23

**Let’s ask why the Wheel would have allowed the attempt to free the DO at all and maybe that will help us to answer Callandor’s question above.**

PillowFriends, I've already answered that question -- several times. For instance, here:

**Uh, no. I mean, come on, you were just saying that it's the Wheel that forces the Dark One to influence the world -- however you want to admit that, you're saying it's the Wheel that can ultimately control the Dark One's actions.

I mean you're saying that it's the Wheel works to ensure that mankind "finds, bores, patches, and then fixes the DO prison."

Suddenly this situation is somehow different than how many other Ages and turnings there have been in the past? Suddenly the Wheel no longer has the iron-grip control over human actions (and your tacit agreement that it can control the Dark One's actions) in order to bring things into balance? If this is somehow the natural working of things, why have there been so many turnings without this action of destroying the Wheel?

The balance is off in the Pattern, yes (there isn't "no balance" -- that would only occur if there was nothing, which is your ultimate result). The Wheel is working to correct this. Again, why on earth do you think Rand, Mat, and Perrin are doing this? The Wheel is working towards the balance it requires, and that does not require the destruction of the Wheel itself. That's just a completely fundamental misunderstanding of how the Wheel works.**

And here:

**Again, I've gone briefly to this point here and far more indepth elsewhere, but the Wheel controls the Dark One's actions -- it controls his influence. Yes, since the series has begun, his influence has grown. But I don't see how that somehow means the Wheel has to be destroyed.**

And here:

**1. You keep saying this "near release." You're right -- it's always a near release. Have you every stopped to think why, rather than a complete release? Because the Wheel controls what occurs (again, the Patter of an Age is predetermined by the Wheel). It balances everything. You have it correct: the Wheel controls the events that make the near release of the Dark One occur in seven Ages over and over again. Yet that is now for some reason the motivation for destroying the Wheel? The Wheel is doing it's job yet again -- so it now must destroy itself?**

And here:

**1. Again, the Wheel also controls events to bring about change. You're entire reason for saying the balance is off, is that the Dark One has strong influence. He has strong influence to bring about change -- that is why he even has an effect on the world: because the Bore was made. Quite a change.**

So, if you have to ask for me to continue to repeat the same answer again and again, I'm quickly just going to stop replying to any of your posts and disregard them wholesale.

**I know there are other quotes that contradict what I am trying to say, but I think there is a certain logic to it (sorry if it’s not presented very clearly). I would be pleased to see some quotes (hint to Callandor) pertaining to my question about why the Wheel allows for the Bore.**

Well, it's good at least that you admit you're contradicted -- but why you continue is beyond me.

Regarding quotes, there are quite important ones. Just look at the situations set up surrounding the Dark One that bring about events for change:

**Question: Is there a reason the Dark One could not or would not re-taint saidin?

RJ: The conditions would have to be exactly right. Those conditions were set up while the seals were being placed on the Bore. The chances that exactly those conditions would occur again are fairly small. And that is saying that it was a volitional act rather than a side-effect of trying to stop the seals from being placed. After all, if the Dark One could taint saidin at will, why could he not taint saidar as well, and why would he not have done so?**

Conditions exactly right. Sounds suspiciously like Wheel's influence -- that and a ta'veren Hero of the Horn at the helm of the event anyway.

Then there's specifically refering to the changes the Wheel makes:

**

In such a world change is simply a predetermined part of the mechanism. Only a few individuals, special souls known as ta'veren, can cause the fabric of the pattern to bend around them, changing the weave. These ta'veren are spun out as key threads around which all surrounding life-threads, perhaps in some cases all life-threads, weave to create change. These key threads often produce major variations in the Pattern of an Age. Such major changes are called, in the old tongue, ta'maral'ailen, or the "Web of Destiny."

Even the ta'veren and the Web of Destiny woven around them are bound by the Wheel and the Great Pattern; it is believed that the Wheel spins out ta'veren whenever the weave begins to drift away from the Pattern. The changes around them, while often drastic and unsettling for those who must live in the Age, are thought to be part of the Wheel's own correcting mechanism. The more change needed to bring the Great Pattern into balance, the more ta'veren spun out into the world.**

The Ages are different. The First Age is not the Second Age. That's why one is called the First Age and the other the Second Age. There are things that are different from the First and Second Age -- changes. The Wheel makes those changes occur when the Ages come and go. There are two known big events of the Age of Legends that obviously lead to the end of the Age: the Strike at Shayol Ghul (leading to the tainting of saidin and then the Breaking) and the drilling of the Bore.

Again, Jordan's words and just knowledge of what was going on with the situation and the factors about it lead to the Strike at Shayol Ghul being undoubtedly controlled by the Wheel. The tainting of saidin could be seen as a terrible, terrible, potentially destructive event for the Wheel -- yet it still carried it out. Why? Because the Wheel controls the events. If you can control what happens, to every degree, how are you in any danger of being destroyed?

Look again at the most basic quote about this:

**TITLE: Eye of the World

CHAPTER: 36 - Web of the Pattern

"Um, yes, well. Not exactly. You see, the Wheel of Time weaves the Pattern of the Ages, and the threads it uses are lives. It is not fixed, the Pattern, not always. If a man tries to change the direction of his life and the Pattern has room for it, the Wheel just weaves on and takes it in. There is always room for small changes, but sometimes the Pattern simply won't accept a big change, no matter how hard you try. You understand?"**

This is directly applying to ta'veren, but it has a larger impact as well: change goes back directly to the Wheel and the Pattern. The "big changes" are all done because of the necessity of them.

And then there is the details regarding the Dark One's latest actions:

**TITLE: Knife of Dreams

CHAPTER 18 - News for the Dragon

"Taim very likely will have to wait on the Last Battle, whatever he's about," Verin said suddenly. Her knitting, a shapeless lump that might have been anything, sat in her lap. "It will come soon. According to everything I've read on the subject, the signs are quite clear. Half the servants have recognized dead people in the halls, people they knew alive. It's happened often enough that they aren't frightened by it any longer. And a dozen men moving the cattle to spring pasture watched a considerable town melt into mist just a few miles to the north."**

**TITLE: Knife of Dreams

CHAPTER 24 - Honey in the Tea

There was one more thing she could do for them: comfort them. Impossible as it seemed at first, the interior of the Tower sometimes changed. People got lost trying to find rooms they had been to dozens of times. Women were seen walking out of walls, or into them, often in dresses of old-fashioned cut, sometimes in bizarre garb, dresses that seemed simply lengths of brightly colored cloth folded around the body, embroidered ankle-length tabards worn over wide trousers, stranger things still. Light, when could any woman have wanted to wear a dress that left her bosom completely exposed?

Egwene was able to discuss it with Siuan in Tel'aran'rhiod, so she knew that these things were signs of the approach of Tarmon Gai'don. An unpleasant thought, yet there was nothing to be done about it. What was, was, and it was not as if Rand himself was not a herald of the Last Battle. Some of the sisters in the Tower must have known what it all meant, too, but wrapped up in their own affairs they made no effort to comfort novices who were weeping with fright. Egwene did.**

It was Foretold that the ghosts, room changes, and the strange older-world mergings were to happen. The Dark One's actions now were predicted that far back in the past. The Wheel is able to control the Dark One's actions. The obvious way to do that? Because the Dark One's influence on the world. What is that? The Bore. Allowing the Dark One to influence the world, by making the Bore, is a way to bring about change. Again, it's been undoubtedly the biggest impact on the entire 3rd Age, and the end of the Age of Legends.

**But once he has arrived at TG, then that is the decisive moment he has been guided to. The pattern has given him all the tools and events to help him out at this moment. So I believe at this and only this moment can he fail, no matter what happens through out the events of the age.**

I don't see how you can maintain that the Wheel/Pattern has been guiding Rand this entire time, keeping him alive, making him do what he needs to do, getting him the this centrally important event -- only to allow him to fail, at all.

Plus, the fact that we know already that the Light wins this conflict.

24

PillowFriends: 2006-09-26



**Most of what your saying is possible; I believe Rand does have a lot of options and power on what to do as it gets closer to the LB. But he still has to work within the fundamental laws of nature since he is still in the pattern, and as a result, I believe that makes it impossible for your theory to work. You can't just dismiss all the evidence and quotes of how the wheel works by saying Rand will do the impossible. Because as far as we have seen, no one can break those rules or anything or that nature. There's no working your way around that.**

**And on another note, I don't think its entirely pointless either. I believe that right now, Rand is guided by the pattern whole lot to where he needs to be and what he needs to do. But I also believe that the timeline of events will reach a pivotal moment like the LB. And then there is nothing else Rand has be there for, and that's when the pattern or the creator have no control over him. If you think about it logically it makes sense.**

I am curious, JakOShadows, have you changed your mind? In the first quote you say Ieyasu’s theory cannot work, yet in the second quote, you say you believe there will be a pivotal moment where Rand will have 100% freedom of choice, free from the Pattern or the Creator (which makes some sense to me). Couldn’t this be Rand’s opportunity to destroy the Wheel?

**Just because he wants to get free doesn't mean that there actually is a way for him to win. He's got dedication, hooray! Dedication doesn't mean anything with futility.**

I agree, Callandor, except that I have a hard time believing a super being that stands outside of time, and creation itself, would suffer from futility. It just doesn’t make sense, to me anyway. Furthermore, even if it were impossible for the DO to ever get free; I still stand by my question as proof that there is something more going on than the Wheel’s manipulation of mankind. Why would the Wheel choose to weave into the Pattern that certain individuals create the Bore, try to free the DO, etc.? There has got to be a reason and I believe the answer to that question would provide a fundamental understanding and insight into this theory and the series as a whole. And you’re right, my opinion offers no evidence to support, or refute this theory. My hope is that by throwing some ideas around, it may spark an as yet unthought-of idea by one of the quoting experts who may then find what’s needed.

25

El Bogarto: 2006-09-27

**Why would the Wheel choose to weave into the Pattern that certain individuals create the Bore, try to free the DO, etc.? There has got to be a reason and I believe the answer to that question would provide a fundamental understanding and insight into this theory and the series as a whole.**

Maybe to provide a catalyst for humanity to grow? After all, “good” is meaningless without “evil”. If humanity only fought itself, the world of tWoT would be more like ours.

While time is circular in tWoT, RJ has made it clear that there are changes every time - each Age is a different song, based on the same melody.

The DO provides a catalyst for change – else humanity is locked in stasis. Without the DO, there wouldn’t be as much variation.

He’s a necessary evil.

26

Callandor: 2006-09-28

**I agree, Callandor, except that I have a hard time believing a super being that stands outside of time, and creation itself, would suffer from futility. It just doesn’t make sense, to me anyway.**

He's trapped in a prison in which the only chances of him getting close to being freed are wholly owned and controlled by the ultimate in event creation and fate object of the world: the Wheel.

It's a mountain of futility.

**Why would the Wheel choose to weave into the Pattern that certain individuals create the Bore, try to free the DO, etc.?**

I told you explicitly:

**3. The Wheel does four things: takes souls and puts them into bodies making new threads (from these and all threads, is the Pattern -- hence why it's all of existance and reality); controls events to maintain the balance between good and evil (ta'veren fit best here, along with Hero rebirth); controls events to bring about change (the Wheel being time itself as well I think fits well under this one); and ensures it's own survival. People are essentially pushing for the Wheel to destroy itself, and by using an already stated impossible method at that. And then dismissing any consequences of this (most notably the entire destruction of reality) as if it's nothing. Ieyasu says that there won't be fate anymore, but there's a bigger problem to that: there won't be a world anymore and there won't be time anymore.**

**My hope is that by throwing some ideas around, it may spark an as yet unthought-of idea by one of the quoting experts who may then find what’s needed.**

Yeah, you know, just completely ignoring what I specifically explained with the quotes before....

As I said in the post on this directly above the one you just made (it was posted three days before yours was), one of the Wheel's "jobs" is to create change. The drilling of the Bore was one such event, of major proportions.

Again, if you're simply not going to read what I post, I'm going to stop giving you the exact same answer to the exact same question you continue to ask as if no one is answering it.

27

BrainFireBob: 2006-09-30

Exactly. The Dark One is entropy personified.

28

JakOShadows: 2006-10-01

Pillowfriends:

What I meant by the first statement was that the DR can't destroy the wheel and that at this moment in the books Rand can not die yet. It is only at the exact moment of the ending of the LB that it can happen. Kind of like a play, all the elements come together, and events don't go down until all the elements have come together. Same way with the wheel, it is guiding Rand to the pivotal point of this age in which the critical moment is reached. Until then, Rand, Mat, and Perrin are all tied to the wheel and basically under its control. So in the situation ya'll are talking about, the basic rules still apply. I know it is a unique idea to say the least, but the two quotes aren't contradictory like you think either.

29

JakOShadows: 2006-10-01

Pillowfriends:

I'm sorry about that last post, I didn't address your last question. I think that it is a fundamental impossibility for the wheel to be destroyed, even given that my theory is true. Because the one power is also used to keep the wheel moving, and Rand can only draw so much of the one power. I think it is just physically impossible to do, no matter how much freedom of choice Rand has or doesn't have.

30

PillowFriends: 2006-10-03



**TITLE: Eye of the World

CHAPTER: 36 - Web of the Pattern

"Um, yes, well. Not exactly. You see, the Wheel of Time weaves the Pattern of the Ages, and the threads it uses are lives. It is not fixed, the Pattern, not always. If a man tries to change the direction of his life and the Pattern has room for it, the Wheel just weaves on and takes it in. There is always room for small changes, but sometimes the Pattern simply won't accept a big change, no matter how hard you try. You understand?"** (Credit Callandor)

Callandor, I get your point, but, one thing regarding your quote. It doesn't say the Pattern will "never" accept a big change, it uses the word, "sometimes". Does "sometimes" mean one in a million, one in a hundred, one in ten, ... Based on this quote, I'd say there are certain opportunities for individuals to make big changes to the Pattern of their own free will.

**Maybe to provide a catalyst for humanity to grow? After all, “good” is meaningless without “evil”. If humanity only fought itself, the world of tWoT would be more like ours.**

I thought of that, too, El Bogarto, but as you mentioned, time is circular. If it were linear I would agree with your assessment. In my opinion, though, with circular time, it is not valid.

**Again, if you're simply not going to read what I post, I'm going to stop giving you the exact same answer to the exact same question you continue to ask as if no one is answering it.**

But, Callandor, you said you love quoting yourself. I'm only providing a grand opportunity for you to do so. :-)

31

Callandor: 2006-10-04

**Callandor, I get your point, but, one thing regarding your quote. It doesn't say the Pattern will "never" accept a big change, it uses the word, "sometimes". Does "sometimes" mean one in a million, one in a hundred, one in ten, ... Based on this quote, I'd say there are certain opportunities for individuals to make big changes to the Pattern of their own free will.**

I cannot see how you can even say that this is what the quote is meaning, without simply misreading it or intentionally misconstruing it. Loial is explaining choice and free will in the beginning. Hence why "If a man tries to change the direction of his life and the Pattern has room for it, the Wheel just weaves on and takes it in."

There are two conditions for this event to happen: the person wanting it to happen, and the Pattern having room for it. Sometimes it does have room for it -- hence why there is an "If" at the start of Loial's words -- and if so, congrats, that person has in a sense made a "free choice" (I only say "in a sense" depending on the outside limiting factors; but that's getting really philisophically picky to a degree even I do not like; to me, it is a free choice in such an instance).

On the other hand SOMETIMES the Pattern simply does not have room for any changes, and won't accept any change no matter how hard you try. These are obviously fated events. You don't want to do what you're fated to do, too damn bad -- you will because the Wheel gets its way every single time when it needs to. If it's not important enough like that, we're back to the Pattern having room: potential for free will there. No room: you're stuck with what the Wheel is going to give you.

**

I thought of that, too, El Bogarto, but as you mentioned, time is circular. If it were linear I would agree with your assessment. In my opinion, though, with circular time, it is not valid.**

How is it not valid because time is circular? It's like saying change (which is essentially what El Bogarto is alluding to) isn't a needed mechanism because time will repeat itself. Well, yeah, of course time will repeat itself -- but only because the changes are implimented.

**But, Callandor, you said you love quoting yourself. I'm only providing a grand opportunity for you to do so. :-)**

I do grow tired of simply saying the same thing again and again, and do expect far more from even the most casual reader of the series.

32

El Bogarto: 2006-10-04

**I thought of that, too, El Bogarto, but as you mentioned, time is circular. If it were linear I would agree with your assessment. In my opinion, though, with circular time, it is not valid.**

Pillowfriends,

If I'm interpreting your stance correctly, you believe that, in a universe where time is circular, humanity will never grow or change?

IIRC, that's why Ishamael turned to the shadow. He believed that humanity was locked in stasis with only a semblance of free will.

While I can see where you're coming from, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. ;)

33

revis35: 2006-10-08

I have read the whole theory and I have a question. If a channler could get outside the Pattern, could they then destroy the Wheel? I ask because while I was reading the arguments going back and forth I was thinking about vacuols(I know I badly misspelled that). The place were moggy was taken when she got soul trapped. I think it was said that they are like bubbles on the Pattern and that ocasonly one would "float off" the Pattern. Would you then be outside the pattern and able to destroy it if you had the means??

34

Dragons Shadow: 2006-12-04

I have to point out one simple thing that no one has mentioned.

Suppose Rand was able to break the wheel, or throw it off track, etc.

This world is based on the reincarnation of an apparently finite number of souls as the Wheel turns. If time was to move forward on a linear track, without reincarnation, then as people died there would be no souls to continue on. The Creator will not take part, so there would be no source of new souls. The "Guf" would be empty as it were.

Thus existence would end, not necessarily in a cataclysm, but it would taper off as no new people were born to replace those who died.

So, if Rand were to successfully break the Wheel without destroying all of existence instantly, existence would still be destroyed.

35

Anubis: 2007-01-12

**So, if Rand were to successfully break the Wheel without destroying all of existence instantly, existence would still be destroyed.**

I would file that under intuitivly obvious, especially considering all the "Wheel" has done to fight the DO.

36

Finwitch: 2007-02-08

Wheel of Time - well, in order to have Prophecies, Foretellings etc. Free Will simply MUST be limited somehow. and the ta'veren business does appear to happen that way, too.

I mean, Rand walks trough a village and leaves loads of marriages behind?