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o Live, You Must Die-The Rand Logain Connection

by Cholly: 2006-07-21 | 3.29 out of 10 (14 votes)

Recent Categories: How Will It End?

Hello everyone.

Theory: The reason for this theory is to prove without a doubt, with no reason for skepticism, that Rand al'Thor will survive Tarmon Gai'don.

How: I am going to accomplish this by making six points.

1.HIS UNPROPHESIED DEATH

2.RAND'S MADNESS/LEWS THERIN/MORIDIN

3.THE BEGGAR/TO LIVE, YOU MUST DIE

4.LOGAIN'S GLORY

5.4TH AGE HISTORIES

7.CONCLUSION



1.HIS UNPROPHESIED DEATH

1.1-Min's The Eye Of The World Viewing

-The Eye Of The World, Chapter 15, Strangers And Friends, Page 181

-Rand's POV, Talking to Min just outside of The Stag and Lion, in Baerlon

"What about me?"

Her grin stopped just short of outright laughter. "The same kind of things as the rest. A sword that isn't a sword, a golden crown of laurel leaves, a beggar's staff, you pouring water on sand, a bloody hand and a white hot iron, three women standing over a funeral bier with you in it, black rock wet with blood-"

"All right," he broke in uneasily. "You don't have to list it all."

-Here she mentions black rock wet with blood as one of Rand's many auras that appear around him. Take note it does not mention his dead body anywhere; if it had, in any case, Min would know Rand was going to die, and even if she didn't love him as much as she does now, she would still remember, and know, and not be as firm on him surviving as this:



1.2-Min's Behavior Toward Rand About Death

-Knife Of Dreams, Chapter 18, News For The Dragon, Pages 394-395

-Rand's POV, Talking to Min, Cadsuane, Loial, Logain, ect, in Lord Algarin's Manor house, inside Tear.

"A truce," he broke in. "And a truce with the Dragon Reborn will last only as long as the Dragon Reborn. When I die, everyone will be free to go to war with the Seanchan again if they wish."

Min slammed the book shut and folded her arms beneath her breasts. "Don't you talk that way!" she said, red-faced with anger. The bond also carried fear.

"The Prophecies, Min," he said sadly. Not sad for himself, but for her. He wanted to protect her, her and Elayne and Aviendha, but he would hurt them in the end.

"I said don't talk that way! The Proophecies don't say you have to die! I'm not going to let you die, Rand al'Thor! Elayne and Aviendha and I won't let you!" She glared at Alivia, who her viewing had said would help Rand die, and her hands slid down her arms toward her cuffs.

-So from here we have proof that Min has not had a viewing that says Rand will die, and she also mentions that the Prophecies do not say Rand has to die.

1.3-An Excerpt From The Karaethon Cycle

-The Great Hunt, Header Prophecy

-as translated by Ellaine Marise'idin Alshinn, In the Year of Grace 231 in the New Era, the Third Age

And it shall come to pass that what men made shall be shattered, and the Shadow shall lie across the Pattern of the Age, and the DO shall once more lay his hand upon the world of man. Women shall weep and men quail as the nations of the earth are rent like rotting cloth. Neither shall anything stand nor abide...

Yet one shall be born to face the Shadow...and there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth at his rebirth. In sackcloth and ashes shall he clothe the people, and he shall break the world again by his coming, tearing apart all ties that bind. Like the unfettered dawn shall he blind us, and burn us, yet shall the Dragon Reborn confront the Shadow at the Last Battle, and his blood shall give us the Light. Let tears flow, O ye people of the world. Weep for your salvation.

-Again, his blood shall give us the Light does not mean he will die. It refers to his blood, which is not his dead body. There is no proof in this passage that Rand will die.

1.4-Thom's Knowledge 1

-The Great Hunt, Chapter 26, Discord, Pages 325-326

-Rand's POV, talking to Thom in the Gleeman's room in The Bunch Of Grapes, which is in Cairhien

Rand hesitated. There were things he needed to know, things he was sure Thom knew-the gleeman had once seemed to know a great deal about a suprising number of things-but he was not sure how to ask. "Thom," he said at last, "are there any books that have the Karaethon Cycle in them?" Easier to call it that then the Prophecies Of The Dragon.

"In the great libraries," Thom said slowly. "Any number of translations, and even in the Old Tongue, here and there." Rand started to ask if there was any way for him to find one, but the gleeman went on. "The Old Tongue has music in it, but too many even of the nobles are impatient with listening to it these days. Nobles are all expected to know the Old Tongue, but many only learn enough to impress people who don't. Translations don't have the same sound, unless they're in High Chant, and sometimes that changes meanings even more then most translations. There is one verse in the Cycle-it dosen't scan well, translated word for word, but there's no meaning lost-that goes like this.

"Twice and twice shall he be marked,

twice to live, and twice to die,

Once the heron to set his path.

Twice the heron, to name him true.

Once the Dragon for remembrance lost.

Twice the Dragon for the price he must pay."

-Note that the price he must pay is not told-it does not say he will die. Of course, it dosen't say he will live either, so this is invalid.

1.5-Thom's Knowledge 2

- The Great Hunt, Chapter 26, Discord, Page 326

-Rand's POV, talking to Thom in the Gleeman's room in The Bunch Of Grapes, which is in Cairhien

"So they do." Thom barked a laugh. "There's another comes to mind.

"Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.

Once for mourning, once for birth.

Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow."

-In this particular prophecy, there are three mentions of Rand's blood.

-Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.-Does not say he is going to die, only his blood will be shed.

-Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.-This only says his blood will stain the rocks of Shayol Ghul. Oh wow. He could get a papercut or something. In any case, it does not state he will die and there is no mention of a body.

-In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow.-Again, this does not say he will die, only his blood will free men from the Shadow.

1.6-Sacfrice For Man?

-The Shadow Rising, Chapter 3, Reflection, Page 71

-Perrin's POV, listening to Rand and Moiraine talk in Rand's room in the Stone Of Tear.

Moiraine frowned. "It still does not respond," she mummered, half to herself. "It will not heal completely."

"That is the one that will kill me, isn't it?" he asked her softly, then quoted," 'His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul, washing away the Shadow, sacrifice for man's salvation.' "

"You read too much," she said sharply, "and understand too little."

-Now in this one, again, another reference to his blood being on the rocks of Shayol Ghul that does not say he will die. And neither does the word 'sacfrice' mean he will perish. He will simply sacfrice some blood. Funny how things can have such simple meanings if you just look at it. Also, take notice Moiraine warns him not to take things at face value. I doubt if she is just trying to make him feel better; she doubts his death as well.

1.7-Review and Analysis of Point 1-His Unprophesied Death

-In all of the Prophecies listed above, not one says Rand will die. They mention his blood. Oh wow, big deal. So, from everything listed above, there is not one shred of evidence that Rand will die in Tarmon Gai'don.

-Nothing in this book series is ever said right out. It is always very complex. It would be too easy for RJ to write all this 'blood' prophecy's that make it look like Rand will die. Of course, since almost everyone thinks he will, it seems to have worked.

2.RAND'S MADNESS/LEWS THERIN/MORIDIN



2.1-Semirhage's Knowledge

-Knife Of Dreams, Chapter 27, A Plain Wooden Box, Page 592

-Rand's POV, Semirhage talking to Rand & Company, Near the Altara, Andor bordor

Semirhage saved him the effort of thinking up a lie. "He's insane," she said coolly. Standing there stiff as a statue, Min's knife hilt still sticking out beside her collarbone and the front of her black dress glistening with blood, she might have been a queen on her throne. "Graendal could explain it better then I. Madness was her speciality. I will try, however. You know of people who hear voices in their heads? Sometimes, very rarely, the voices they hear are voices of past lives. Lanfear claimed he knew things from our own Age, things only Lews Therin Telamon could know. Clearly, he is hearing Lews Therin's voice. It makes no difference that his voice is real, however. In fact, that makes his situation worse. Even Graendal usually failed to acheive reintegration with someone who heard a real voice. I understand the descent into terminal madness can be. . .abrupt." Her lips curved in a smile that never touched her dark eyes.

-I believe Semirhage to be speaking the truth here. I think, in the case, cold hard facts would work better then lies. This does, however, give Rand a bit of hope,with a little something called reintegration. I do not think it will be done to Rand. He needs Lews Therin in his head to help him win Tarmon Gai'don, so scratch this off.

2.2-Min's Lews/Moridin Viewing

-A Crown Of Swords, Chapter 33, A Bath, Page 526

-Rand's POV, talking to Min in the Royal Palace in Cairhien

She folded her arms and frowned up at him through her lashes. She chewed her lip and frowned at the door. She shook her head and muttered under her breath. At last she said," There is only one, really. I was exaggerating. I saw you and another man. I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another,and. . . ." Her mouth tightened worriedly, and she went on in a very small voice. I don't know which it means, Rand except that one of you dies and one dosen't. I-why are you grinning? This isn't a joke, Rand. I do not know which of you dies."

-This means that after Tarmon Gai'don, Lews Therin will leave Rand in peace.

2.3-Egwene's Dream of the Dying Man

-A Crown Of Sword, Chapter 10, Unseen Eyes, Page 203

-Egwene's POV, Dreaming in the Rebel Camp

"A man lay dying in a narrow bed, and it was important that he not die, yet outside a funeral pyre was being built, and voices raised songs of joy and sadness."

-I thought I'd just throw this in here. This refers to Rand's current situation; it is ongoing, happening right now. I mean, he is pretty beat up.

2.4-Egwene's Dream of the Many Masks

-The Path Of Daggers, Chapter 15, Stronger Then Written Law, Page 308

-Egwene's POV, Dreaming in the Rebel Camp



"Rand, wearing different masks, until suddenly one of those false faces was no longer a mask, but him."

-I take this as meaning that after Tarmon Gai'don, not only will he desert all of his titles (The Dragon Reborn, Lord of The Morning, King of Illian, ect. . .), but that, again, Lews Therin and Moridin will leave him. His tavereness too, by the way. This has to be after the Last Battle because he cannot give up being the Dragon Reborn before that; the pattern won't let him.

2.5-Review and Analysis Of Point 3-Rand's Madness/Lews Therin/Moridin

-It is possible for Rand to rid himself of Lews Therin before Tarmon Gai'don, but he won't. He can't get any more insane (the taint is gone.) After Tarmon Gai'don, he will desert all titles and the two voices in his head.

3.THE BEGGAR/TO LIVE, YOU MUST DIE

3.1-Min's The Eye Of The World Viewing

-The Eye Of The World, Chapter 15, Strangers And Friends, Page 181

-Rand's POV, Talking to Min just outside of The Stag and Lion, in Baerlon

"What about me?"

Her grin stopped just short of outright laughter. "The same kind of things as the rest. A sword that isn't a sword, a golden crown of laurel leaves, a beggar's staff, you pouring water on sand, a bloody hand and a white hot iron, three women standing over a funeral bier with you in it, black rock wet with blood-"

"All right," he broke in uneasily. "You don't have to list it all."

-Notice the beggar's staff in the middle of all that.

3.2-Perrin's Dream Of Rand (One of very few)

-The Shadow Rising, Chapter 53, The Price Of Departure, Page 612

-Perrin's POV, Dreaming In his room in the Winespring Inn

As he scanned for birds, a patch of sky darkened, became a window to somewhere else. Egwene stood among a crowd of women, fear in her eyes; slowly the women knelt around her. Nynaeve was one of them, and he believed he saw Elayne's red-gold hair. That widow faded and was replaced. Mat stood naked and bound, snarling; an odd spear with a black shaft had been thrust across his back behind his elbows, and a silver medallion, a foxhead, hung on his chest. Mat vanished, and it was Rand. Perrin thought it was Rand. He wore rags and a rough cloak, and a bandage covered his eyes. The third window dissapeared, the sky was only the sky, empty except for clouds.

-Take note that Rand is wearing rags and a rough cloak, and also about the bandage on his eyes.

3.3-Moridin's Little Game

-The Path Of Daggers, Prolouge, Pages 34-35 Paperback

-Moridin's POV, Talking to himself while playing sha'rah with himself, near Shayol Ghul?

The Fisher held his attention, baiting him. Several peices had varying moves, but only the Fisher's attributes altered according to where it stood; on a white square, weak in attack yet agile and far-ranging in escape; on black; strong in attack but slow and vulnerable. When masters played, the Fisher changed sides many times before the end. The green-and-red goal-row that surrounded the playing surface could be threatened by any peice, but only the Fisher could move onto it. Not that he was safe, even there; the Fisher was never safe. When the Fisher was yours, you tried to move him to a square of your color beyond your opponent's end of the board. That was victory, the easiest way, but not the only one. When your opponent held the Fisher, you attempted to leave him no choice for the Fisher but to move onto your color. Anywhere at all along the goal-row would do; holding the Fisher could be more dangerous then not. Of course, there was a third path to victory in sha'rah, if you took it before letting yourself be trapped. The game always degenerated in a bloody meelee, then, victory coming with complete annihilation of your enemy. He had tried that, once, in complete desperation, but the attempt had failed. Painfully.

Fury boiled suddenly in Moridin's head, and black flecks swarm across his eyes as he seized the True Power. Ecstasy that amounted to pain thundered through him. His hand closed around the two mindtraps, and the True Power closed around the Fisher, snatching it into the air, a hair from crushing it to powder, crushing the powder out of existance. The goblet shattered in his hand. His grip bordered on crushing the cour'souvra. The saa were a blizzard of black, but they did not hinder his sight. The Fisher was always worked as a man, a bandage blinding his eyes and one hand pressed to his side, a few drops of blood dripping through his fingers. The reasons, like the source of the name, were lost in the mist of time. That troubled him sometimes, enraged him, what knowledge might be lost in the turnings of the Wheel, knowledge he needed, knowledge he had a right to. A right!

Slowly he set the Fisher back on the board. Slowly his fingers uncurled from around the cour'souvra. There was no need for destruction. Yet. Icy calm replaced rage in the blink of an eye. Blood and wine dripped from his gashed hand, unnoticed. Perhaps the Fisher did come from some remnant of a memory of Rand al'Thor, the shadow of a shadow. It did not matter. He realized he was laughing, and made no effort to stop. On the board, the Fisher stood waiting, but in the greater game, al'Thor moved already to his wishes. And soon, now. . . .It was very hard to lose a game when you played both sides of the board. Moridin laughed so hard that tears rolled down his face, but he was not aware of them.

-Now, reread that passage again, but this time, everywhere you see the words 'the Fisher', replace it with Rand al'Thor. See what I mean? This is too amazing to be a coicedence. The bandage on his eyes, his hand on his side with blood dripping thur? Now, for what this means.

3.4-What The Aelfinn Said

-Gather From Knife of Dreams, News For The Dragon

Rand 's Question-How can I win the Last Battle and survive?

Their answer-The north and east must be as one. The west and south must be as one. The two must be as one. To live, you must die.

-The important part of this is 'to live, you must die'. Some would take that as saying that Rand will die, but the Dragon Reborn will live on. What it really means is for Rand to live, he must 'die' from the world, go away, hide. Become beggar-like.

3.5-The Fake Funeral

-The Eye Of The World, Chapter 15, Strangers And Friends, Page 181

-Rand's POV, Talking to Min just outside of The Stag and Lion, in Baerlon

"What about me?"

Her grin stopped just short of outright laughter. "The same kind of things as the rest. A sword that isn't a sword, a golden crown of laurel leaves, a beggar's staff, you pouring water on sand, a bloody hand and a white hot iron, three women standing over a funeral bier with you in it, black rock wet with blood-"

"All right," he broke in uneasily. "You don't have to list it all."

-Three women standing over a funeral bier with you in it. This obviously dosen't indicate he will die, or Min would be upset. It has to be his three lovers, at his fake funeral.



3.6-The Boat One

-Lord Of Chaos, Chapter 14, Dreams and Nightmares, Page 255

-Nynaeve's POV, making full circle with other sisters during a bubble of evil in the rebel camp.

"The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance out the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."

-It does not matter if the boat is literal or symbolic, Rand will live.

3.7-The Boat 2

-Lord Of Chaos, Chapter 19, Matter's Of Toh, Page 312

-Rand's POV, Avi speaking.

"Melaine and Bair dreamed of you [Rand] on a boat with three women whose faces they could not see and a scale tilting first one way and then the other. Melaine and Amys dreamed of a man standing by your side with a dagger to your throat, but you did not see him. Bair and Amys dreamed of you cutting the wetlands in two with a sword. All three had this dream, which makes it especially significant. Rain, coming from a bowl. There are snares and pitfalls around the bowl. If the right hands pick it up, they will find a treasure perhaps as great as the bowl. If the wrong hands, the world is doomed. The key to finding the bowl is to find the one who is no longer."

-Again, same from above, Rand will survive. The scale is weather they pull the scheme off(they do, see below).



3.8-Review and Analysis Of Point 2-The Beggar

-From the quotes above, we can sucessfully gather that Rand will become beggar-like at some point. Let me define beggar-like. He will only be acting the beggar; after Tarmon Gai'don is over, he will go into hiding, somewhere, where very few know where he is. This can all be garenteed from those three quotes, without a doubt. The beggar-like appearance may also symbolize something else-that nobody will know it was Rand who was the Dragon Reborn. He will survive, TO LIVE, YOU MUST DIE. He will become a beggar, dying as the Dragon Reborn, to live as a beggar.

4.LOGAIN'S GLORY

4.1-Min's Most Mysterious Viewing

-The Shadow Rising, Chapter 17, Deceptions, Page 198

-Min's POV, Talking to Gawyn and Galad in Tar Valon

She barely heard him, because suddenly she was staring at a big man with long, dark hair curling around slumped shoulders, wandering aimlessly down one of the gravled paths through the trees, under the watchful eyes of an Accepted. She had seen Logain before, a sad faced, once hearty man, always with an Accepted for companion. That woman was meant to keep him from killing himself as much to prevent his escape; despite his size, he truly did not seem up to anything of the latter sort. But she had never before seen a flaring halo around his head, radinant in gold and blue. It was only there for a moment, but that was enough.

Logain had proclaimed himself the Dragon Reborn, had been captured and gentled. Whatever glory he might have had as a false Dragon was far behind him now. All that remained for him now was the despair of the gentled, like a man who had been robbed of sight and hearing and taste, wanting to die, waiting for death that inevitably came to such men in a few years. He glanced at her, perhaps not seeing her; his eyes looked hopelessly inward. So why had he worn a halo that shouted of glory and power to come? This was something she had to tell the Amyrlin.

-So Logain has glory and power to come. What exactly is it? This next quote is the most important one in this whole theory, indeed, what this is based on.

4.2-The MVQ

-A Crown Of Swords, Chapter 10, Unseen Eyes, Page 202

-Egwene's POV, Dreaming in the Rebel Camp

"Logain, laughing, stepped across something on the ground and mounted a black stone; when she looked down, she thought it was Rand's body he had stepped over, laid out on a funeral bier with his hands crossed at his breast, but when she touched his face, it broke apart like a paper puppet.."

-Wow. Okay, let's digest this. Logain steps over Rand's body. He is laughing. He dosen't hate Rand, and he want's the Light to win, so if this occured before Tarmon Gai'don, he wouldn't be laughing. The most obvious assumption is that after Tarmon Gai'don, Rand dies and Logain gets credit for defeating the DO, and being the Dragon Reborn. That is half right, half wrong. Logain will get credit, but Rand will still be alive. Notice when Egwene touchs his face, it breaks like a paper puppet. That is what seals the deal. After Tarmon Gai'don, Logain will become the Dragon Reborn as Rand will go into a kinda self imposed exile(one he would greatly enjoy.)

-There is one quote I couldn't find for the life of me. In it Thom tells Mat I think that in X number of years from now, Rand might not be the hero of the story; it could be Mat, or Thom himself. An obvious bit of foreshadowing in any case.

5.FOURTH AGE HISTORIES

5.1-Fourth Age Histories Number 1

-The Eye of The World Prolouge

And it came to pass in those days, as it had come before and would come again, that the Dark lay heavy on the land and weighed down the hearts of men, and the green things failed, and hope died. And men cried out to the Creator, saying, O Light of the Heavens, Light of the World, let the Promised One be born of the mountain, according to the prophecies, as he was in ages past and will be in ages to come. Let the Prince of the Morning sing to the land that green things will grow and the valleys give forth lambs. Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark, and the great sword of justice defend us. Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time.

(From Charal Drianaan te Calamon, The Cycle of the Dragon. Author unknown, the Fourth Age)

5.2-Forth Age Histories Number 2

-The Dragon Reborn, End Prophecy

And it was written that no hand but his should wield the Sword held in the Stone, but he did draw it out, like fire in his hand, and his glory did burn the world. Thus did it begin. Thus do we sing his Rebirth. Thus do we sing the beginning.

(from Do'in Toldara te, Songs of the Last Age, Quarto Nine: The Legend Of The Dragon. Composed by Boanne, Songmistress at Taralan, the Forth Age)

5.3-Forth Age Histories Number 3

-The Shadow Rising End Prophecy

And when the blood was sprinkled on ground where nothing could grow, the Children of the Dragon did spring up, the People of the Dragon, armed to dance with death. And he did call them forth from the wasted land, and they did shake the world with battle.

(from The Wheel of Time by Sulamein so Bhagad, Chief Historian at the Court of the Sun, the Fourth Age.)

5.4-Forth Age Histories Number 4

-The Fires Of Heaven End Prophecy

And the Glory of the Light did shine upon him.

And the Peace of the Light did he give men.

Binding nations to him. Making one of many.

Yet the shards of hearts did give wounds.

And what was once did come again

--in fire and in storm

splitting all in twain.

For his peace...

--for his peace...

...was the peace...

...was the peace...

...of the sword.

And the Glory of the Light did shine upon him.

(from Glory of the Dragon, composed by Meane sol Ahell, the Fourth Age)

5.5-Forth Age Histories Number 5

-Lord Of Chaos Header Prophecy

The lions sing and the hills take flight.

The moon by day, and the sun by night.

Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.

Let the Lord of Chaos rule.

(chant from a children's game heard in Great Aravalon, the Fourth Age)

5.6-Review and Analysis Of Point 5-Forth Age Histories

-None of these mention Fourth Age Histories mention Rand's name or his 'death'. Interesting.

6.CONCLUSION

-From everything above, we can safely realize that Rand will survive to Tarmon Gai'don, Defeat the Dark One, become beggar-like, go into hiding. TO LIVE, YOU MUST DIE. Again, he will die as the Dragon Reborn, giving all the credit to Logain, and live as Rand al'Thor, who he really wants to be.
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Comments

1

Tamyrlin: 2006-10-22

It seems to me that Jordan may leave us with this question unknown. In other words, I don't know that we will have Rand speak again after the battle. I think Jordan wants to leave us with that loose thread. We know Rand will appear to die. We know the world will go on in battle, but the Final Battle will be done. We know that Logain will take over in Rand's stead. We know there is a funeral. We know Egwene sees his body as a paper puppet. We know that the Finns say he could live but must die first. We know the Aiel believe it could go either way. We know Min is concerned. I don't think we are going to be told definitively in the books or by Jordan, but I think the books imply that he will be alive.

2

JakOShadows: 2006-10-22

Cholly:

All the quotes you give are strong evidence for the fact that he will live. But the fact of it is that we don't know whether he will live or die. I bet you when Callandor posts his reply, he will have a million reasons why you are wrong and different interpretations for your quotes. And they will be just as possible. So while this evidence does prove it is possible Rand can live, it doesn't make it a guarantee that he will live.

3

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-10-22

Great theory - finally someone who agrees with me, who's also taken the effort to pull all the quotes together.

The one bit of logic I'll add is that, if Rand were to 'die' twice, the first death would have to be fake(unless balefire is involved)- as death can't be cured.

You did miss a quote - the one about Nynaeve not being satisfied until she's cured someone three days dead ...we all know that Jordan has made Rand a Christ like figure (in many ways), and Christ rose from the dead 3 days later...so she 'heals' his fake death...bring him back... to the world he is dead...etc etc

4

Callandor: 2006-10-22

**-Here she mentions black rock wet with blood as one of Rand's many auras that appear around him. Take note it does not mention his dead body anywhere; if it had, in any case, Min would know Rand was going to die, and even if she didn't love him as much as she does now, she would still remember, and know, and not be as firm on him surviving as this:**

Min doesn't have to see Rand's dead body in the actual viewing to know that he will die. Otherwise, auras would tell her absolutely nothing except be pretty colors.

**-So from here we have proof that Min has not had a viewing that says Rand will die, and she also mentions that the Prophecies do not say Rand has to die.**

Min is still human. She can just want Rand to not die, and hence her reaction. And Min saying that the prophecies do not say Rand will die is simply wrong. They do.

**-Note that the price he must pay is not told-it does not say he will die. Of course, it dosen't say he will live either, so this is invalid.**

You must not have been paying attention to the structure of the prophecy then. The second line: "twice to live, and twice to die." (Hence why Min is wrong from above.)

Rand will be marked twice and twice (for a total of four markings). Two markings for life; two markings for death. Two herons for life -- Rand received both of these in The Great Hunt, the second of which was when he proclaimed himself the Dragon Reborn. This is obviously the life part. The two dragons he got in Rhuidean. Following the rest of the structure, they're obviously showing that Rand is set to die.

**And neither does the word 'sacfrice' mean he will perish. He will simply sacfrice some blood. Funny how things can have such simple meanings if you just look at it.**

1. What point at all does Rand have as being a Christ parallel (or any savior parallel), if he doesn't have a martyr's death for humanity?

2. I would really like you to accept that last sentence that you wrote. Things do have a very simple meaning. Specifically, when it says "die" I'm thinking there might be an actual death involved. Reading it as Rand dying is quite simple, and doesn't entail Rand giving blood sacrifices (or papercuts) for some unexplained reason.

**-In all of the Prophecies listed above, not one says Rand will die. They mention his blood. Oh wow, big deal. So, from everything listed above, there is not one shred of evidence that Rand will die in Tarmon Gai'don.**

Again, this is quite false. It's stated quite clearly in the Karatheon Cycle prophecy: twice to live, and twice to die.

**-Nothing in this book series is ever said right out. It is always very complex. It would be too easy for RJ to write all this 'blood' prophecy's that make it look like Rand will die. Of course, since almost everyone thinks he will, it seems to have worked.**

1. At best, it's evenly split over whether people think Rand will live or die in (after) the Last Battle. Most likely there are more people in favor of Rand living. Factions aren't the best factor for showing this, but the two factions that obviously relate to Rand living on total 26 members -- my own about him dying totals 25. There are over 2000 members here...

2. I don't see how Rand giving a blood sacrifice (or whatever) is somehow complex or anything. But what happened to you saying things were so "simple" if you just looked at them?

But your point I feel is just misleading. With Foretellings Jordan has always told us what will happen -- it just depends on if you can figure out what will happen or not. Look at the prophecy concerning Rand going to the Waste and capturing Asmodean versus Moiraine's view of it. Her's is something one might consider "more complex" but it's not really -- just a different reading of what needed to be done. Rand living versus dying isn't any more complex. I mean hell, if you want to call it "complex" we can all make up verisons that go along lines of Rand gates to Shayol Ghul, bumps into Moridin, says hi to him, has a cup of tea, chats about Semirhage's love of cuddling, sets out to duel Moridin, defeats him, trips on a stone, has his head impacted by a sharp rock, and slowly bleeds to death over the course of 2 hours while unconscious. Complex, is it not? But it still amounts to the same thing: Rand died. The same way with whatever convolutions you wish to put on it, it's the same outcome: Rand lives.

The point is whether Jordan is being overt or secretive. If he's just stating that Rand will die, he's obviously being overt. If he's being very subtle and trying to toy with us, he's being secretive.

But even that has failings, too, since it just gets into notions of what it means to be "overt" or not. So, I just see your point as irrelevant.

(As a final note, I can't see how Jordan is being subtle with having mentioned the word "die," again. As you once said, quite simple.)

**-I believe Semirhage to be speaking the truth here. I think, in the case, cold hard facts would work better then lies.**

She is speaking the truth -- about some things. Her overall comments however are hardly truthful, at best misleading, and when being honest amount to lies.

As well, I don't see how you'd say truth works better than lies here as if that's more validity to her words. Maybe it would, but hey, they can still be a bunch of lies as well.

**-This means that after Tarmon Gai'don, Lews Therin will leave Rand in peace.**

Don't see how you know that this will take place after the Last Battle (or that Rand survives it), let alone that it pertains to Lews Therin.

**-I thought I'd just throw this in here. This refers to Rand's current situation; it is ongoing, happening right now. I mean, he is pretty beat up.**

Yet, again, where are you getting this? It could very well be Rand -- or it could very well be someone else entirely. And even if it does refer to Rand, how does it show that he will survive the Last Battle? It's just important that he not die -- until it's time for him to die.

**-I take this as meaning that after Tarmon Gai'don, not only will he desert all of his titles (The Dragon Reborn, Lord of The Morning, King of Illian, ect. . .), but that, again, Lews Therin and Moridin will leave him. His tavereness too, by the way. This has to be after the Last Battle because he cannot give up being the Dragon Reborn before that; the pattern won't let him.**

Well, I'm glad you ascribed this to yourself, but where are you getting this about Rand abandoning his titles? Nothing about them in the quote. Where is this pertaining to being after the Last Battle? Nothing aboutt that in the quote. Nothing about ta'vereness either.

**-It is possible for Rand to rid himself of Lews Therin before Tarmon Gai'don, but he won't. He can't get any more insane (the taint is gone.) After Tarmon Gai'don, he will desert all titles and the two voices in his head.**

This section seemed to just be you reading far more of what you wanted into each thing provided and just saying it all meant Rand lives, rather than anything that actually showing anything that supports it.

**-The important part of this is 'to live, you must die'. Some would take that as saying that Rand will die, but the Dragon Reborn will live on. What it really means is for Rand to live, he must 'die' from the world, go away, hide. Become beggar-like.**

Again, what happened to the simple meanings you mentioned before? Rand being told he must die means instead that he should take a vaction? Or that he needs to -- it's so complicated I know! -- die?

**-It does not matter if the boat is literal or symbolic, Rand will live.**

Again, you seem to want to pay attention to part of this, except for the most important part. That whole "he who is dead" part. If we hold to your claim of simple meanings, it's hard to see how Rand can be living after he's dead -- unless it's through the same meaning as anyone else being alive after their dead in a world that is based on reincarnation. Rand dies and his soul lives on to be reborn again and again.

**From the quotes above, we can sucessfully gather that Rand will become beggar-like at some point. Let me define beggar-like. He will only be acting the beggar; after Tarmon Gai'don is over, he will go into hiding, somewhere, where very few know where he is. This can all be garenteed from those three quotes, without a doubt. The beggar-like appearance may also symbolize something else-that nobody will know it was Rand who was the Dragon Reborn. He will survive, TO LIVE, YOU MUST DIE. He will become a beggar, dying as the Dragon Reborn, to live as a beggar.**

Your putting two unrelated things together as if they're stated to be connected.

1. The beggar. What part is referenced to this being after the Last Battle? None that I have seen. So, let's do a crazy thing and suppose that it's before the Last Battle. Well, I don't see anything wrong with Rand being a beggar -- for whatever reason -- before he dies in the Last Battle.

2. The fake funeral. A good way to put this otherwise is that Rand might fake his death. You're saying that Rand is going to do this after the Last Battle (or during or some such for an impact after it). Again, let's do the crazy thing and say that it's before the Last Battle. I again do not see anything wrong with Rand faking his death before the Last Battle -- entirely possible he fakes his death and goes to pretend to be a beggar. Most likely, since Rand is always pressed for time, it's not just a whim and will be for an actual purpose. I myself do like the idea that he fakes his death by some means to deal with Taim and the Black Tower, but you can fill in whatever you like if that doesn't suit you.

**The most obvious assumption is that after Tarmon Gai'don, Rand dies and Logain gets credit for defeating the DO, and being the Dragon Reborn.**

Again this entire problem of you saying that these take place after the Last Battle.

It is entirely possible again that Rand does fake his death (as stated above), and that Logain is in on/a factor in this -- quite easily to be that the ultimate purpose of faking his death is to deal with Taim and the Black Tower.

Now all those have an explanation, they don't require Rand to go into exile, they can all happen before the Last Battle, and before Rand dies.

**-None of these mention Fourth Age Histories mention Rand's name or his 'death'. Interesting.**

None of the Prophecies of the Dragon say Rand's name either -- what's your point? They don't support Rand dying in the Last Battle. Oh well. They sure don't support him living on afterwards, either. They're completely unrelated to the matter at hand.

**-From everything above, we can safely realize that Rand will survive to Tarmon Gai'don, Defeat the Dark One, become beggar-like, go into hiding. TO LIVE, YOU MUST DIE. Again, he will die as the Dragon Reborn, giving all the credit to Logain, and live as Rand al'Thor, who he really wants to be.**

No. All that can be safely realized is that you wish to emphasize part of two majorly important quotes, rather than the entirety of them. As well, you wish to add in your own reading of multitudes of other quotes to state them meaning something quite different than what is actually given. Finally, you want to toss up irrelevant material that neither impacts him dying nor supporting him living, as if it does either.

**You did miss a quote - the one about Nynaeve not being satisfied until she's cured someone three days dead ...we all know that Jordan has made Rand a Christ like figure (in many ways), and Christ rose from the dead 3 days later...so she 'heals' his fake death...bring him back... to the world he is dead...etc etc**

How do you "Heal" a fake death? That's the entire point -- you've faked your death. There's nothing to Heal.

I mean you yourself said that death cannot be Healed. If you agree with that, there's no point in mentioning Nynaeve not being happy unless she Healed someone three days dead. It's an impossible feat.

5

vardene: 2006-10-23

a lot of speculation and wishful thinking. you seem to have conviniently forgotten some things:

TGH Chap22, discord

"Daughter of the night, she walks again, the ancient war, she yet fights. Her new lover she seeks, who will serve her and die, yet serve her still."

how does lanfear fit into it? she wouldnt want anything to do with rand if he wasn't taveren or special in some way, she lusts only after power.

6

Wompat: 2006-10-23

Cholly:

Good theory, I think that there are a few parts that need some revision though. in part one where you talk about min telling rand not to talk like that...i kind of read it as her not wanting to accept that he could die, im not saying that that's the case but it reads like it could be....also, part two i feel is rather weak. you make big assumptions about Lews Therin just leaving rands head, without any real evidence or conjecture as to why or how it might happen. maybe Graendal does manage to cure him, or Nynaeve does. that being said, i do agree with you overall, and i too remember the quote where thom tells mat that in ages to come people will remember the story differently, sorry i couldnt find it either im sure someone will.

7

Cholly: 2006-10-23

Snakes: I know I didn't mention the three days dead thing - I debated on if I should add it for about an hour, about it seemed a little weak to me.

I know all of this can be interpeted different ways, but when you put it all together, there can only be one conclusion.

8

JakOShadows: 2006-10-23

snake-n-foxes:

I know this has been argued about a whole, I don't think that quote about Nynaeve curing death has anything to do with this. It is just refering to her strong will. The way it is mentioned doesn't lead me to believe that is was supposed be a hint or anything.

And about Rand being a Christ like figure, you have to remember that RJ likes to put a twist on myths and stories, rather than directly copy them. So it is also possible that Rand lives, you can't just say that he is Christ like so he will be healed by Nynaeve. The fact is that we don't know what will happen.

9

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-10-24

Call said ** And Min saying that the prophecies do not say Rand will die is simply wrong. They do.

Call later said **"twice to live, and twice to die." (Hence why Min is wrong from above.)**

It seems to me that the whole point of the post is “Rand survives the last battle”…so it also seems quite obvious to me that Cholly means “the phrophecies do not say Rand will die at the last battle” – which they don’t…that little fact is quite undeniable.

By the way - every person dies – hardly prophetic to say that is it?

But the prophecies talk of dying twice – now how is that achieved ? There are only two answers that we know of to live twice :

1. A literal first death – balefire brings Rand back after he is killed; or

2. A ‘second-meaning’ first death – a ‘fake death’ where everyone believes TDR dead – therefore to the world he has died.

There are enough quotes about 3 women around Rand on a Funeral Bier to very strongly suggest that Rand will ‘die’ a fake first death.

…………………………………………

Call said **What point at all does Rand have as being a Christ parallel (or any savior parallel), if he doesn't have a martyr's death for humanity?**

Are you suggesting that Rand is going to get crucified? If not…then I guess you acknowledge that Rand isn’t a purely Christ parallel, and so the story doesn’t need to follow exactly the same pattern as Christ - as JakO later argues…

JakO said **The fact is that we don't know what will happen.**

Quite right – there’s no way to prove what will happen (re Nynaeve raising a three days ‘dead’ Rand…but it’s a possible bit of foreshadowing.)

Call said **How do you "Heal" a fake death? That's the entire point -- you've faked your death. There's nothing to Heal.**

As previously The quotes provide quite strong evidence that Rand will fake a death… so that involves the one power (the only other known way to ‘fake’ the symptoms of death being with poisons – but RJ hasn’t shown anyone with that skill in the books)…so, the one power is used to fake Rands death…it’s only a short step to using the one power to ‘heal’ or ‘reverse’ the no doubt inverted weave and ‘bring Rand back to life’

Btw – Min says Alivia will help Rand die – seems to fit nicely into helping Rand ‘fake’ a death …if she helps him die a fake death - I doubt Alivia has ever learned how to reverse (ie heal) any of her weaves.

…………………………..

Call said ***Again, let's do the crazy thing and say that it's before the Last Battle. I again do not see anything wrong with Rand faking his death before the Last Battle -- entirely possible he fakes his death and goes to pretend to be a beggar.***

Ummm…if Rand fakes his death – then the world thinks he’s dead…so, on top of whatever chaos the DO adds…the world would erupting into Chaos just prior to TLB: ie : the loss of leadership, leaders going for one anothers throats, the seafolk treaty in tatters, the King of Tear removed before he has time to secure his thrown – likely civil war, no King in illian – fight for the power vacuum- likely civil war, no King/Queen in Carhein – fight for power vacumm – likely civil war ….add to that the Seachan no longer being bound by Rands truce and intent on conquest, then add the Aiel no longer having a chief of chiefs to keep to guide them (they left the 3fold land because of him remember), nor to keep them from attacking the wetlanders (& visa versa)…no…no reason at all why Rand can’t fake his death prior to TLB.

10

Cholly: 2006-10-24

Hi, Callandor. I was expecting that.

*-Min doesn't have to see Rand's dead body in the actual viewing to know that he will die. Otherwise, auras would tell her absolutely nothing except be pretty colors.-*

But when Min sees a vision, she knows what will happen. Nowhere does she see a vision where she is certain of his death

*-Min is still human. She can just want Rand to not die, and hence her reaction. And Min saying that the prophecies do not say Rand will die is simply wrong. They do.

Of course Min does not want him to die, but she is right. They never say he will die. The line twice to live, twice to die is entirely symbolic.

*-2. I would really like you to accept that last sentence that you wrote. Things do have a very simple meaning. Specifically, when it says "die" I'm thinking there might be an actual death involved. Reading it as Rand dying is quite simple, and doesn't entail Rand giving blood sacrifices (or papercuts) for some unexplained reason. -*

I was applying the the simple meaning phrase to that prophecy, not the whole theory, Callandor. Your repeative use of bringing that back up is irrevelant; it was only being applied to that prophecy, and maybe a few others.

*-Well, I'm glad you ascribed this to yourself, but where are you getting this about Rand abandoning his titles? Nothing about them in the quote. Where is this pertaining to being after the Last Battle? Nothing aboutt that in the quote. Nothing about ta'vereness either. -*

One of those masks very easily could have been the King of Illian, or the Lord Of The Morning. About pertaining to the Last Battle, do you seriously expect him to give everything up before the Last Battle? Thats crazy. The only logical way he could shed the masks is after he has that mountain off his back, and that cannot happen until after the Last Battle, which leads to him surviving. Again, one of those masks could be taverness. I remember Moiraine saying Taverns only stay taverns for a set amount of time. The logical time for him to lose his taverness is after the Last Battle.

*-Again, you seem to want to pay attention to part of this, except for the most important part. That whole "he who is dead" part. If we hold to your claim of simple meanings, it's hard to see how Rand can be living after he's dead -- unless it's through the same meaning as anyone else being alive after their dead in a world that is based on reincarnation. Rand dies and his soul lives on to be reborn again and again. -*

You, Callandor, seem to have forgotten the second part of that-He who is dead yet lives. That's a major loophole. He can die a symbolic death-the dragon reborn- and still live on in real life as Rand al Thor. That quote interpeats as that just as much, no a whole lot more, as your assumption that the Dragon soul will live on.

*-1. The beggar. What part is referenced to this being after the Last Battle? None that I have seen. So, let's do a crazy thing and suppose that it's before the Last Battle. Well, I don't see anything wrong with Rand being a beggar -- for whatever reason -- before he dies in the Last Battle. -*

One, there is nothing that says it will happen before the Last Battle, and two, it makes a whole lot more sense for it to happen after. There is not a lot of time left in this series. He won't have time- which he is always complaining about the lack of- to go into hiding before the Last Battle.

*-2. The fake funeral. A good way to put this otherwise is that Rand might fake his death. You're saying that Rand is going to do this after the Last Battle (or during or some such for an impact after it). Again, let's do the crazy thing and say that it's before the Last Battle. I again do not see anything wrong with Rand faking his death before the Last Battle -- entirely possible he fakes his death and goes to pretend to be a beggar. Most likely, since Rand is always pressed for time, it's not just a whim and will be for an actual purpose. I myself do like the idea that he fakes his death by some means to deal with Taim and the Black Tower, but you can fill in whatever you like if that doesn't suit you.-*

Again, I missed the part where it says it will happen before the last battle. I'm not saying it comes out and says it will happen after the Last Battle, but if you combine all the information we have, it makes a whole lot more sense. It is more logical.

*-None of the Prophecies of the Dragon say Rand's name either -- what's your point? They don't support Rand dying in the Last Battle. Oh well. They sure don't support him living on afterwards, either. They're completely unrelated to the matter at hand. -*

Completely unrelated? Come on. The Dragon Reborn heroiclly dying, giving up his life in the Last Battle is a lot more poetic then if he lives on and governs. The point is they do not mention his death, which would be a major event, which they did not put in their writings.

*-No. All that can be safely realized is that you wish to emphasize part of two majorly important quotes, rather than the entirety of them. As well, you wish to add in your own reading of multitudes of other quotes to state them meaning something quite different than what is actually given. Finally, you want to toss up irrelevant material that neither impacts him dying nor supporting him living, as if it does either.-*

Okay, half of your post you dragged on about my simple meaning statement, which I was obviousley only applying to the one prophecy. The enterity of the two major quotes do support this theory, if you look at them logically. And my own readings could very well happen, and there is not a bit of irrevelant material in here. I explained the reason for the Forth age quotes. If you look at everything logically, you will see my point, Callandor.

11

Cholly: 2006-10-24

Vardene- What are you talking about? You are trusting a dark prophecy? I don't see how Lanfear fits into it at all. It is a dark prophecy- How the shadow wants things to happen.

BTW, it is not wishful thinking. There is proof, in quotes and prophecies, to back this up.

12

Callandor: 2006-10-24

**I know all of this can be interpeted different ways, but when you put it all together, there can only be one conclusion.**

I quite specifically defined that conclusion in my first post.

**It seems to me that the whole point of the post is “Rand survives the last battle”…so it also seems quite obvious to me that Cholly means “the phrophecies do not say Rand will die at the last battle” – which they don’t…that little fact is quite undeniable.**

Cholly's entire point was that Min was right and that the Prophecies don't say that Rand has to die. Again, they do. Min -- is -- wrong.

**By the way - every person dies – hardly prophetic to say that is it?**

Indeed. Everyone is someone reborn, so it's hardly an important event, right?

**But the prophecies talk of dying twice – now how is that achieved ? There are only two answers that we know of to live twice :**

No, the Prophecies do not speak of dying twice. Again, pay attention to the structure of the prophecy. It's two marks for death; not two deaths. You're reading it incorrectly.

**Are you suggesting that Rand is going to get crucified? If not…then I guess you acknowledge that Rand isn’t a purely Christ parallel, and so the story doesn’t need to follow exactly the same pattern as Christ - as JakO later argues…**

Yet amazingly all messiahs have this thing in common: they die martyrs. I can't recall, what has Jordan called Rand?

**Q: how much of Jesus Christ is there in Rand? We have the wounded palms, side wound, crown of swords... How representational of JC is Rand?

A: Rand has some elements of Jesus Christ, yes. But he is intended more to be a general "messiah figure." An archetype such as Arthur, rather than a manifestation of Jesus Christ in any way.**

Oh, that's right....

(As an aside, it's quite silly to ask if I think Rand's going to be crucified, as if to show how Jordan is diverging from that in Chirst's life -- Rand has been marked on his palms (as well as wrists, so don't try to cop out with 20th century arguments that the paintings/sculptures are wrong), the crown of swords being much like the crown of thorns, the beatings at the hands on the Aes Sedai much like Christ's, and the wound in his side can be seen to be the spear injury that killed him. Heck, if you really want to twist it, Rand even has a wound to his feet that he sustained in his battle with Sammael.)

**Quite right – there’s no way to prove what will happen (re Nynaeve raising a three days ‘dead’ Rand…but it’s a possible bit of foreshadowing.)**

Yeah, except for the parts where it's said to be impossible -- such as Healing the dead. That tends to limit options a bit.

**As previously The quotes provide quite strong evidence that Rand will fake a death… so that involves the one power (the only other known way to ‘fake’ the symptoms of death being with poisons – but RJ hasn’t shown anyone with that skill in the books)…so, the one power is used to fake Rands death…it’s only a short step to using the one power to ‘heal’ or ‘reverse’ the no doubt inverted weave and ‘bring Rand back to life’**

I don't see why this is required. It depends on the degree that it would be needed to go to. For instance, if Rand faked his death to deal with Taim, only Taim would really need to know that he was dead (it would undoubtedly spread further, but we've already seen many times rumors start that Rand is dead anyway). It's not like Rand has to lay very, very still for everyone in the world to come see the body -- again, the rumor mill will do enough if the required sources are used.

**Btw – Min says Alivia will help Rand die – seems to fit nicely into helping Rand ‘fake’ a death …if she helps him die a fake death - I doubt Alivia has ever learned how to reverse (ie heal) any of her weaves.**

Yet another thing that is hardly incompatible with Rand faking his death before he actually dies. Alivia "kills" Rand so that Logain can take place, forcing Taim into action and showing his true colors while Rand is waiting in beggar hiding (till it's over or just till they unveil for Taim; all preference), and when that is all done it's off to the Last Battle -- where Rand actually dies.

Again, where is the incompatibility here?

**Ummm…if Rand fakes his death – then the world thinks he’s dead…so, on top of whatever chaos the DO adds…the world would erupting into Chaos just prior to TLB:**

Again, it all depends on the degree of what it's for. If it's just for Taim's removal, he's the primary one that has to know and it's not like it has to be a side show of "Come See The Dead Dragon Reborn." Rumors, and the correct sources of information and so forth and it will be enough. They can even toss in showmanship if you truly desire there to be it, but there is nothing out of line with everything about Rand faking his death taking place before the Last Battle. And then Rand dies. For real. No fake, no gimmick. Rand on the ground, body cut in two, and Mat standing over him saying "That is one dead Dragon." D-E-D -- dead.

But his soul goes on to be reborn again and again.

(Not to mention the fact that there are already stories around that Rand is dead, and the world is already well established to be in chaos -- so I fail to see your point, as well as it simply being a mischaracterization of what I said.)

13

Dragon: 2006-10-25

Yub. It's really obvious that Rand will survive the LB. Almost everyone in Randland believes that, of course, Rand has to die at TG.

But Rand actually sees a small chance that he might somehow survive the LB. The reason is that he asked the Aelfinn, how to win and survive the LB. They gave him a riddle as an answer, namely: "To live, you must die."

Thus Rand himself thinks in KoD: "Now he just had to figure out how to live by dying."

It's clear that Rand will solve this riddle and figure out how to survive the LB, like he figured out how to cleanse saidin, etc. It's a typical RJ pattern.

14

SugarBullet: 2006-10-25

Hey, just a thought folks - can anyone tell me to what degree the events in Min's prophesy are listed chronologically? I know that in general they appear to be so - though the water on sand and the begger's staff seem to throw that off...

Anyway, what sturck me is how as Min is listing these visions you can almost feel as though the blood on the rocks is the beginning a whole final group on the list... If this were to be intentionally chronological it would appear that the funeral would be prior to his blook on the rooks which in turn precedes something else intirely...

Kind of fun to think about, eh? Like his blood on the rocks is what gets him through the gates of hell to knuckle of with the devil himself!

"Her grin stopped just short of outright laughter. "The same kind of things as the rest. A sword that isn't a sword, a golden crown of laurel leaves, a beggar's staff, you pouring water on sand, a bloody hand and a white hot iron, three women standing over a funeral bier with you in it, black rock wet with blood-"

15

hashpond420: 2006-10-27

Snakes-n-foxes said:

"As previously The quotes provide quite strong evidence that Rand will fake a death… so that involves the one power (the only other known way to ‘fake’ the symptoms of death being with poisons – but RJ hasn’t shown anyone with that skill in the books)…so, the one power is used to fake Rands death…it’s only a short step to using the one power to ‘heal’ or ‘reverse’ the no doubt inverted weave and ‘bring Rand back to life’ "

This is incorrect.

Both Nynaeve and variouse members of the Kin have extensive knowledge of variouse plants, roots, and other holistics. It stands to reason that if a person knows the curative properties of plants that they would also know of poisoness effects.

A good example of this, though not technically a "poison", is Forkroot, which "poisons" the ability to channel. (in women at least)

Snakes-n-foxes said:

" Ummm…if Rand fakes his death – then the world thinks he’s dead…so, on top of whatever chaos the DO adds…the world would erupting into Chaos just prior to TLB: ie : the loss of leadership, leaders going for one anothers throats, the seafolk treaty in tatters, the King of Tear removed before he has time to secure his thrown – likely civil war, no King in illian – fight for the power vacuum- likely civil war, no King/Queen in Carhein – fight for power vacumm – likely civil war ….add to that the Seachan no longer being bound by Rands truce and intent on conquest, then add the Aiel no longer having a chief of chiefs to keep to guide them (they left the 3fold land because of him remember), nor to keep them from attacking the wetlanders (& visa versa)…no…no reason at all why Rand can’t fake his death prior to TLB. "

I see problems with some of these reasons.

1.There have been many times where variouse poeple about the world thought Rand to be dead and in none of these incidents did the world become more chaotic than it already was. Plus let's for a moment consider Rand does fake his death before T.G.

In all likelyhood he would let his his inner circle in on the scheme, at least key parts of it, i.e. Cadsuane, so therefore there would be no actual break in the chain of command.

2.Elaine has claim on both the Lion Throne and The Sun Throne, Carhein would not fall into civil war.

3.As for the Seanchan remember that there is no more royal family thanks to semirhage, which means Tuon is the next, and only, in line for that throne. Mat will mary Tuon and therefore become "King" of Seanchan.

This fact makes me very doubtful that Rands "death" would trigger any major problems in this respect.

4.The only times in WOT history that the Aiel have openly attacked Wetlanders.

- Lamans Sin (he deserved it)

- The Shaido (evil intent)

I see no evidence that the Aiel who follow Rand Harbour ill will for Wetlanders, nor do I see evidence that Rands death, either fake or real, would cause these Aiel to go berserk and start killing Weltlanders for no reason. Come on, havn't you heard of ji'e'toh?

On top of this the aiel that follow Rand are, in my opinion, even more hardy than the average Aiel, after all the truth and shame of the origins of the Aiel didn't break them.

(remember the brotherless?)

16

vardene: 2006-10-27

cholly, we do not know much of dark prophecy but there is nothing to say that they are not generated by the pattern(or whatever agency generates the prophecies of the light) or are in anyway invalid. so far, they have been accurate.

As callandor pointed out, the prophecies say Rand has to die clearly, and he cant escape that by having someone else die in his place. If he doesn't experience death, the prophecies are not fulfilled. But he will live after dying unless, of course, he has already died.When he dies all his "warders" will experience problems-they may all die if he is not revived.He must revive and defeat the shadow. The prohecy says he will confront the shadow not necesarily the DO. And how do you defeat the embodiment of chaos? certainly not with balefire. And if he's dead(or even hiding from the world), how will he give credit to logain? Moreover, it would be false glory. Sorry i must disagree with your conclusions though i consider it a timely and courageous theory.

17

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-10-27

**Yet amazingly all messiahs have this thing in common: they die martyrs. I can't recall, what has Jordan called Rand?**

And this can easily be achieved by Rand faking his death - ending up on a funeral bier for all the world to see.

Callandor, many of your answers re Rand faking his death, ignore the fact that every dream/foretelling etc of his fake death specifies how it will be done – on a funeral bier. That’s quite a public way to show you are dead – it’s not a ‘only Taim needs to think I’m dead’ show…

But lets use your example of Taim : Because of all the one power wielders who are able to delve people, read their vital signs, and detect a persons health (and you can bet your bottom dollars lots of them will delve a fake dead Rand); and because it’s impossible to tell who may tell Taim that Rand’s faked his death (if they detect he’s alive) – there is only one way for Rand to successfully fake his death – with the One Power inverted, with Rands Vital signs stopped (or slowed to the point where they seem non existent). Once he’s on a funeral bier – everyone of any importance will want to see it (because they can then start scheming)

If that happens before TLB, then that means the whole world knows – with confirmation from rulers and people of power (unlike the always unconfirmed rumours you cited). That then leads the chaos, power vacuums among the powerful, unsteady thrones, multiple civil wars, possibly a new aiel war, an ongoing Seachan war, likely intercountry wart…as per my previous post - that would be disastrous just prior to TLB.

…………….

***Yeah, except for the parts where it's said to be impossible -- such as Healing the dead. That tends to limit options a bit.***

You’re ignoring that fake death stuff again, which is specifically what I was discussing.

……………

***Cholly's entire point was that Min was right and that the Prophecies don't say that Rand has to die. Again, they do. Min -- is -- wrong.***

Why don’t you ask Cholly for clarification? Like ‘Cholly, did you mean “…” or did you mean “…”?

Considering how much time Cholly devoted to “Rand survives the last battle”, I think most people would safely presume that Cholly meant “Rand doesn’t die at the last battle” (Cholly certainly can’t mean ‘Rand will never die’ because everyone dies, so why argue about it?)… so why not just ask instead of making multiple posts trying to ‘disprove’ something the OP likely agrees with you about (that Rand will die...like we all do)….just seems a waste of time to me.

SnF said **But the prophecies talk of dying twice – now how is that achieved ? There are only two answers that we know of to live twice :**

Call said ***No, the Prophecies do not speak of dying twice. Again, pay attention to the structure of the prophecy. It's two marks for death; not two deaths. You're reading it incorrectly.***

You are incorrect, because there are two ways to read that prophecy – one the way you read it, and the other where it means he is to ‘die’ twice. With the ‘twice to live, twice to die”….once you add in the Snakes n Foxes ‘To live you must die’, Min’s ‘Alivia is going to help Rand die’, and the multiple visions of Rand faking his own death, the meaning seems fairly self explanatory.

18

Callandor: 2006-10-27

**But when Min sees a vision, she knows what will happen. Nowhere does she see a vision where she is certain of his death**

And where exactly is that stated?

**Of course Min does not want him to die, but she is right. They never say he will die. The line twice to live, twice to die is entirely symbolic.**

Right. That whole "die" part is purely symbolic. Just like the four marks, huh? But it's a nice thing that you completely skipped dealing with the very simple explanation for the prophecy that has been shown in the series.

The prophecies say he will die. Min -- is -- wrong. It's not like it's a contradiction in her viewings -- it's just a contradiction in what she wants.

**I was applying the the simple meaning phrase to that prophecy, not the whole theory, Callandor. Your repeative use of bringing that back up is irrevelant; it was only being applied to that prophecy, and maybe a few others.**

Ah, I see. It's a lovely convenient thing. If it must be simple for you, look to the "simple meaning." But if that's a problem for you in that instance, well, let's just ignore that rule for the time being.

If you yourself aren't going to be consistant with what you explain is so simple, it's quite ridiculous that you're going to use it as if to give a rebuttal to the very simple point of Rand dying.

As you said:

**Funny how things can have such simple meanings if you just look at it.**

You want to use this for an explanation? Fine. But don't try to cop out as if you are the only one that can use it. All the other instances that you say are just "irrelvant" are nothing of the sort. They all fall prey to the very point you tried to ascribe to another point, but you decided for whatever reason to look the other way on.

There's an even simpler meaning for another prophecy, and more than one: Rand will actually die.

**One of those masks very easily could have been the King of Illian, or the Lord Of The Morning.**

Maybe, maybe not. That's the entire point with saying "Where are you getting this?" Again, I'm glad you said that you take this to mean ____ but you didn't do that on several other instances.

And if all you have is that you think it means that -- and just that, you're opinion -- then all I'm going to have to do is say "Well, I think differently."

Suddenly, where does the discussion go? Nowhere. If you want to convince other people, let alone me, you're going to actually start using evidence and just the evidence not just trying to sell your own obvious interpretation of those quotes.

**About pertaining to the Last Battle, do you seriously expect him to give everything up before the Last Battle? Thats crazy.**

Doesn't matter what I think. The point is that you are reading into the quote what you want, and saying it's convincing. I'm sure it is to you, but you have nothing at all but your opinion. Whether it's beyond belief to you or not, thereis nothing at all in that quote about being beyond the Last Battle. At all. That is nothing but your own addition to it, and you're trying to use that itself as evidence.

**The only logical way he could shed the masks is after he has that mountain off his back, and that cannot happen until after the Last Battle, which leads to him surviving.**

This is yet another thing. Where is it said that Rand "sheds" these masks? Again, the quote you gave in question:

**"Rand, wearing different masks, until suddenly one of those false faces was no longer a mask, but him."**

Hmm. Nope. No "shedding." So, where are you getting this tidbit as well?

**I remember Moiraine saying Taverns only stay taverns for a set amount of time. The logical time for him to lose his taverness is after the Last Battle.**

1. Ta'veren remain ta'veren as long as they are needed to be ta'veren by the Wheel. It's not like all ta'veren are ta'veren for 18 months, and then even if they're not done ~click~ no more ta'vereness.

2. Yes, it's higlhy logical that Rand will no longer be ta'veren after the Last Battle.

3. There are two problems with you using the second point as if it lends credence to your theory. First, ta'veren are also no longer ta'veren once they're dead. See, when a ta'veren is dead, they're clearly not needed by the Wheel anymore, get it? Second, it is again built upon the supposition that ta'vereness is one mask that Rand needs to "shed."

**You, Callandor, seem to have forgotten the second part of that-He who is dead yet lives. That's a major loophole. He can die a symbolic death-the dragon reborn- and still live on in real life as Rand al Thor. That quote interpeats as that just as much, no a whole lot more, as your assumption that the Dragon soul will live on.**

1. Since you clearly read what I wrote by refering to it, you know quite well that I did not overlook the part of "yet lives."

2. There's no "loophole" needed. The only thing that's needed is to realize that Jordan has already made a fundamental aspect of what is needed a part of the world: rebirth.

**One, there is nothing that says it will happen before the Last Battle, and two, it makes a whole lot more sense for it to happen after. There is not a lot of time left in this series. He won't have time- which he is always complaining about the lack of- to go into hiding before the Last Battle.**

Ah, yes. That's the great argument for why things must happen -- there's no "time" for it. And how is it that you know this? How is there "time" to see Rand after the Last Battle as a beggar?

There being no "time" for it is an extremely weak argument with absolutely no basis except your own perception of what's going on. You say that there's no "time" for this -- hell, I see it as that there's no time for everything else to be done without this since it fulfills so many things in one event this way (which is precisely needed).

**Again, I missed the part where it says it will happen before the last battle. I'm not saying it comes out and says it will happen after the Last Battle, but if you combine all the information we have, it makes a whole lot more sense. It is more logical.**

What was the second thing you said in this theory?

**Theory: The reason for this theory is to prove without a doubt, with no reason for skepticism, that Rand al'Thor will survive Tarmon Gai'don.**

Well, if you're using all this as evidence that it's beyond a doubt, and then simply not addressing objections but to exclaim "It makes more sense" or "There's no time for that," you're not going to show anything at all but your own predictions. Where is the clearly convincing evidence? Again, I don't see how it's any less "logical" (if not far more so) that all these events you refer to -- and then some -- occur before the Last Battle and then Rand still dies. Is there any objection you have at all to what I said, except to claim that you think your version is more "logical" or that there is "no time" for it? If not, I can't say anything but that the objection clearly stands.

**Completely unrelated? Come on. The Dragon Reborn heroiclly dying, giving up his life in the Last Battle is a lot more poetic then if he lives on and governs. The point is they do not mention his death, which would be a major event, which they did not put in their writings.**

Uh huh. So, now you're using the absense of evidence as evidence? Your right, they haven't said Rand's name or mention his death. Again, what is your point, except that they haven't? It doesn't add to your side at all; it doesn't take away from the view that Rand dies; it doesn't do anything to this topic at all. Hence why it is unrelated.

**Okay, half of your post you dragged on about my simple meaning statement, which I was obviousley only applying to the one prophecy.**

Yes, and your "simple meaning" point is quite a correct one. You take a shockingly complext view to "simple." But the far greater error you're making is to make it seem as if that rule you use for that one instance is somehow not applicable to every other instance you bring up. Since when did the K.I.S.S. rule become localized?

**And my own readings could very well happen, and there is not a bit of irrevelant material in here.**

Yes, they could happen as you say. Then again, it's just as likely -- and if you feel yourself subject to the entirety of possibilities for this series from this point on it's far more likely -- that you're absolutely wrong on all counts in what you read into those quotes. That is why they're not evidence. You're trying to present them as such, when they are not.

**If you look at everything logically, you will see my point, Callandor.**

It's quite hilarious that you seem to think I'm somehow being illogical, here.

19

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-10-27

Vardene said ***As callandor pointed out, the prophecies say Rand has to die clearly***

There is no need of prophecy to say someone will die – that is a foregone conclusion for everyone.

………………………

hashpond420 Post :

***1.There have been many times where various people about the world thought Rand to be dead and in none of these incidents did the world become more chaotic than it already was.***

Quite obvious differences here : firstly, those were peasants spreading those rumours, not nobles who control armies – if it comes to civil war, the only people that can start them are those with armies. Secondly they were just rumours, not ‘confirmed’ deaths as Rand laying in state on funeral bier would be.

***3.As for the Seanchan remember that there is no more royal family thanks to semirhage, which means Tuon is the next, and only, in line for that throne. Mat will mary Tuon and therefore become "King" of Seanchan.***

No, Tuon will be Empress. Mat will be the “Prince of Ravens”. Tuon will rule, not Mat. Tuon has already stated her intention to finish the conquest, and Mat his intention to oppose the Seanchan conquest….that is war (without Rand).

2.Elaine has claim on both the Lion Throne and The Sun Throne, Carhein would not fall into civil war

Uh, yeah, right…”I’m a foreign queen who wishes to take over your country, you Carheinin nobles must bow before me, acknowledge me queen, surrender and subjugate yourselves, Carhein, and it’s identity to Andor. Oh, and if any of you do decide to rebel, I’ll use my loyal Andoran troops against you while ordering my not so loyal Carheinin troops to stay away…because I know they won’t be happy killing their own for me, the foreign queen, and I wouldn’t want the more rebellious of you to put idea’s in Carheinin troops heads. Uh, oh yes, just one more small little thing… maybe sometime in the future I may or may not also get you to send your tribute, Oops, I mean ‘taxes’ to Caemlyn as well. Will you be happy with that???”

…so, uh, yeah, Likely story that, without Rand (unless you’re telling me many Carheinin nobles wouldn’t fight a covert war against the foreign queen for the rest of their life, however she came to the throne?)…and just where do you think Elayne is going to rule from? Carhein? (obviously not – the Andorans would quickly remove any traitorous queen that did that – though perhaps you are suggesting she’s going to bunny hop (travel) between the two for the rest of her life, in which case she can never dedicate as much time to any one country as she should – unless of course you think queens just idle their time away and there should be plenty of free time). Then, don’t you think the other countries would object to her forming a super power, or empire ? Without Rand, the move would end in uprisings in Carhein, (and likely Andor if she moved capitals), and war between nations (otherwise in a few years, Andor/Carhein ‘might’ become powerful enough to swallow other nations).

Yuh, I can’t see any problems at all with such a move.

***On top of this the Aiel that follow Rand are, in my opinion, even more hardy than the average Aiel, after all the truth and shame of the origins of the Aiel didn't break them.***

The Aiel are warlike (unless you are arguing that they are just misunderstood, so much so that they have just been warring amongst themselves for a thousand years or more, and almost all of them know how to use weapons). And they look down on the ‘soft wetlanders’ (unless you think that’s a fond fatherly term, and not derogatory). Then there is the fifth. The Aiel have conquered Carhein, and Tear, and are about to conquer Arad Domon (on behalf of Rand, but to them, Rand is Aiel too). Those countries owe them the fifth (and the Aiel haven’t collected much yet)….as for those conquered nations…. being wetlanders who have been racked by strife and war (which costs money and destroys much – so many are just plain broke), and being wetlanders who understand Ji’e’toh, said soft wetlanders will of course happily allow the Aiel (who can’t possibly transport a fifth of the wealth of three countries) to take more of their lost wealth and valuables.

So far you disagree with just one civil war, that leaves two civil wars. You’ve disagreed with the Seanchan war, but that’s just plain wrong, so we have an emipirical war between the Seanchan and all other countries. We have a Naval war between the Seanchan and Seafolk, …and I forgot Arad Domon, which doesn’t have a king – that will probably end up in civil war without Rand (seeing as he’s about to free Arad Domon from the forsaken, if he leaves then it’s a likely civil war)– until the seanchan take it anyway – so three civil wars. So three intra country civil wars, a Randland wide empirical war, and a naval war are left. And a maybe/maybe not new Aiel war.

20

Chang: 2006-10-29

1) Rand could lie on a funeral bier and have only close associates there and make sure Taim knows and people in Caemlyn without the rumour spreading everywhere else he rules. Esp. if he carries out his plan quickly. Just shows him on a bier with three people around him, not a host.

2) Prophecies say he "twice to live and twice to die". He hasn't died yet.

Aelfinn say "To live, you must die." Can point to rebirth or a fake death.

3) Though I do agree that Rand will survive the Last Battle, nothing in that argument convinced me of this. It is full of opinions and speculation based on particular readings: you yourself say 'it could be this or that'. It also most certainly 'could be' something else. I have said once b4 consistency is important to me. This is a case in point.

21

Callandor: 2006-10-30

**And this can easily be achieved by Rand faking his death - ending up on a funeral bier for all the world to see.**

Where did I write that all martyrs die a fake death? All martrys die -- most notably, for the cause they champion.

**Callandor, many of your answers re Rand faking his death, ignore the fact that every dream/foretelling etc of his fake death specifies how it will be done – on a funeral bier. That’s quite a public way to show you are dead – it’s not a ‘only Taim needs to think I’m dead’ show…**

Except the Egwene dream with the "puppet" Rand -- unless that's something else entirely....

And again, it can be public. It just doesn't have to be near the level you're discussing in being a "THE WORLD KNOWS THE DRAGON IS DEAD! KILL EVERYONE! WE'RE SCREWED!" type of cerimony.

Obviously, if it's a ploy to use against Taim, people will have to "know" that Rand is dead. However many people that is, however it's done, and whoever is in on it does not preclude it from happening before the Last Battle.

**Because of all the one power wielders who are able to delve people, read their vital signs, and detect a persons health (and you can bet your bottom dollars lots of them will delve a fake dead Rand)**

Why? You're going to fake a corpse -- which again the person might not even be seeing (depending on if it's a "cerimony" and whose there, or if it's simply a rumor mill for Taim) -- and to what point? You see a corpse, and everyone is telling you he's dead, people that would know, your first inclination is to say the hell with it and Delve him? Yeah, right....

**and because it’s impossible to tell who may tell Taim that Rand’s faked his death (if they detect he’s alive) – there is only one way for Rand to successfully fake his death – with the One Power inverted, with Rands Vital signs stopped (or slowed to the point where they seem non existent).**

Again, you're trying to say that if the situation might not work out the best that it would never happen. The key is that this theory was supposed to be so uncontravertable that it's obvious that Rand lives. It's nothing of the sort. You're trying to say that if the situation occurs, things might go wrong. Well, no kidding. But amazingly, things can still go completely wrong after Rand fakes his death and hey! Those viewings and dreams are all fulfilled before the Last Battle.

**If that happens before TLB, then that means the whole world knows – with confirmation from rulers and people of power (unlike the always unconfirmed rumours you cited). That then leads the chaos, power vacuums among the powerful, unsteady thrones, multiple civil wars, possibly a new aiel war, an ongoing Seachan war, likely intercountry wart…as per my previous post - that would be disastrous just prior to TLB.**

1. Again, you're trying to make this seem as if the whole world has to see Rand dead in order for it to impact Taim. Listen to what is being said: it can be a very small thing that does this.

2. As has been said before, Rand's been rumored dead at least twice before by all sorts of people and chaos didn't instantly spring up. Rand's been rumored to have gone insane making him effectively dead, and chaos did not spring up. This is a short term scheme, obviously. It's not months and months long.

**You’re ignoring that fake death stuff again, which is specifically what I was discussing.**

Which again becomes useless. You cannot "Heal" a fake death. There's nothing to Heal. Hence why it's a fake.

**Why don’t you ask Cholly for clarification? Like ‘Cholly, did you mean “…” or did you mean “…”?**

What's to clarify? It's being said that the Prophecies don't state that he'll die. They do. The passage has been quoted in this very theory. It's pretty cut and dry, and hardly needs clarification -- just acceptance.

**You are incorrect, because there are two ways to read that prophecy – one the way you read it, and the other where it means he is to ‘die’ twice.**

There are always two ways at least to read something -- they come down to correct, and incorrect. This isn't just an arrogant thing to say -- there simply is no other way to read the passage without simply NOT understanding it at all. That is what you're pushing for: that we all toss aside our reading comprehension and join you in complete fabrication of what is actually said.

**With the ‘twice to live, twice to die”….once you add in the Snakes n Foxes ‘To live you must die’, Min’s ‘Alivia is going to help Rand die’, and the multiple visions of Rand faking his own death, the meaning seems fairly self explanatory.**

Yeah, except for one thing: you're completely taking the quote out of context. Again, look at the structure of the prophecy. Rand will be marked twice and twice. Twice to live -- IE: he'll receive to marks to show that the Dragon is reborn; which he did. And twice to die -- two marks to show he's on his path to death; which he did receive as well.

Again, this is like with the call for "clarification." There's nothing to be clarified. You're simply reading the passage wrong. There's not always two valid ways to read something -- one can, and in this case is, simply wrong.

**There is no need of prophecy to say someone will die – that is a foregone conclusion for everyone.**

And since when did you become Jordan saying what is or isn't needed in the Prophecies?

This entire struggle in overall form is a battle over Rand's soul. We see that with Ishamael's (and the other Forsaken) insistance to capture Rand, to convert Rand, to kill Rand, or -- most tellingly -- to take Rand's soul.

The Dark One obviously isn't capable to steal the Dragon soul in the soul pool, otherwise he would've done so already long ago. The only "danger" time is when the Dragon soul is reborn. Hence why essentially telling Rand "Hey, you to die so we can safe keep your soul." can be quite important.

**Quite obvious differences here : firstly, those were peasants spreading those rumours, not nobles who control armies – if it comes to civil war, the only people that can start them are those with armies. Secondly they were just rumours, not ‘confirmed’ deaths as Rand laying in state on funeral bier would be.**

1. We've seen people from nobles to Aes Sedai believe Rand is dead. Again, no chaos.

2. You're saying nobles don't pay attention to rumors? Who are you trying to kid? That's practically all they do -- just look even briefly at the Cairhien. Their entire culture is practically based around it.

3. You're again trying to make this seem like Randland is our world where things can be spread around the world with validity in an hour or so. As well, you're again trying to make this seem like it's going to be a huge procession passing by to see Rand, to gape at the dead Dragon Reborn.

4. Finally, let's say we forget all the problems with your argument and say it's valid. How does it in anyway show that it will not occur? That there's not even a "doubt" that it would occur, as this theory proclaims it will achieve? Everything can go to hell and back again with this being done -- yes, even before the Last Battle -- and it doesn't in any way, shape, or form eliminate it from happening at all. That is again ignoring all the gaping wholes in the argument itself.

**Without Rand, the move would end in uprisings in Carhein, (and likely Andor if she moved capitals), and war between nations (otherwise in a few years, Andor/Carhein ‘might’ become powerful enough to swallow other nations).**

Why? Rand already gave orders to those that support him -- such as Dobraine -- to make sure it goes smoothly. See, no matter how much you object to saying there will be immediate chaos, there ARE still those people that are loyal to Rand and orders.

And more importantly, Elayne's claim isn't some frivolous thing -- it's an actual tangible claim to a country that has no ruler at present save a Steward that follows Rand and Rand himself. Finally, again, Rand's been paving the way for this since Winter's Heart and even before.

**Yuh, I can’t see any problems at all with such a move.**

Yet again your insistance that there could be difficulties and you trying to translate that into saying it's impossible.

**Those countries owe them the fifth (and the Aiel haven’t collected much yet)**

They've already taken from Tear and Cairhien. Rand forebade them from looting Caemlyn, and it's far enough past that to see no reason for them to bring it up now. They played no part in the taking of Illian. Arad Doman is under policing now, and presumably they are already taking their fifth if so.

So what "collection" are you talking about that they would need?

As for the rest of the Aiel points, it's just simply ridiculous to say that at this point in the series the Aiel aren't fully united, now with the Shaido being practically nothing and not a factor. Rand's ta'vereness has ended feuds within the Aiel, and they've all been fighting and living together as one people since The Fires of Heaven.

22

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-10-31

***Rand could lie on a funeral bier and have only close associates there and make sure Taim knows and people in Caemlyn without the rumour spreading everywhere else he rules. Esp. if he carries out his plan quickly. Just shows him on a bier with three people around him, not a host.***

That would completely defeat the purpose of laying on a funeral bier. The way you suggest, no funeral bier is necessary – just for the 3 women to say ‘Rand’s dead’.

***Aelfinn say "To live, you must die." Can point to rebirth or a fake death.***

In terms of what the snakes-n-foxes said - if Rand is ‘born again/reborn/to live’, he must ‘die’ first – it points to both.

I have said once b4 consistency is important to me. This is a case in point.

Seems, consistent to me – numerous quotes all pointing to the same thing (re Rand’s fake death), and Rand asking the snakes-n-foxes how he can survive the last battle -and they say ‘to live you must die’ .

23

Cholly: 2006-10-31

Okay Callandor,

I can see how you can come to the conclusion that you have, and I know a lot of my quotes and evidence and line of thinking that I use is opinion based, and my own interperations. But when you put all of it together, nothing else makes sense.

***Yet amazingly all messiahs have this thing in common: they die martyrs. I can't recall, what has Jordan called Rand?

**Q: how much of Jesus Christ is there in Rand? We have the wounded palms, side wound, crown of swords... How representational of JC is Rand?

A: Rand has some elements of Jesus Christ, yes. But he is intended more to be a general "messiah figure." An archetype such as Arthur, rather than a manifestation of Jesus Christ in any way.**

Oh, that's right....

(As an aside, it's quite silly to ask if I think Rand's going to be crucified, as if to show how Jordan is diverging from that in Chirst's life -- Rand has been marked on his palms (as well as wrists, so don't try to cop out with 20th century arguments that the paintings/sculptures are wrong), the crown of swords being much like the crown of thorns, the beatings at the hands on the Aes Sedai much like Christ's, and the wound in his side can be seen to be the spear injury that killed him. Heck, if you really want to twist it, Rand even has a wound to his feet that he sustained in his battle with Sammael.) ***

Yes, Jesus died, but do you think Jordan is going to copy it exactly?

***Yet another thing that is hardly incompatible with Rand faking his death before he actually dies. Alivia "kills" Rand so that Logain can take place, forcing Taim into action and showing his true colors while Rand is waiting in beggar hiding (till it's over or just till they unveil for Taim; all preference), and when that is all done it's off to the Last Battle -- where Rand actually dies. ***

I'd like to see the solid proof you are begging me for.

***But Rand actually sees a small chance that he might somehow survive the LB. The reason is that he asked the Aelfinn, how to win and survive the LB. They gave him a riddle as an answer, namely: "To live, you must die."

Thus Rand himself thinks in KoD: "Now he just had to figure out how to live by dying."

It's clear that Rand will solve this riddle and figure out how to survive the LB, like he figured out how to cleanse saidin, etc. It's a typical RJ pattern. ***

Yes. It is obvious that Rand will figure it out to do all of this after he survives the Last Battle, and wonders what to do with himself.

*** cholly, we do not know much of dark prophecy but there is nothing to say that they are not generated by the pattern(or whatever agency generates the prophecies of the light) or are in anyway invalid. so far, they have been accurate. ***

Yes, but is this true prophecy? And if it is , prophecies have aren't always the obvious, and this one could have already happened, for all we know. BTW, Vardene, I thank you for your respectful criticism.

***Callandor, many of your answers re Rand faking his death, ignore the fact that every dream/foretelling etc of his fake death specifies how it will be done – on a funeral bier. That’s quite a public way to show you are dead – it’s not a ‘only Taim needs to think I’m dead’ show… ***

Quite right, I did not realize that, it does all seem to be public, and on the bier.

***And where exactly is that stated?***

Think about it Callandor. If Min had seen for sure that Rand would die, we would have seen it in her POV's for sure. It is one plus one equals two, but you are trying to say it equals three.

***You want to use this for an explanation? Fine. But don't try to cop out as if you are the only one that can use it. All the other instances that you say are just "irrelvant" are nothing of the sort. They all fall prey to the very point you tried to ascribe to another point, but you decided for whatever reason to look the other way on.***

Did I state that I was the only one allowed to use that statement. No. I said that I was applying it only to that statement. You are free to apply it to anything you want, but you just can't do it with my name behind it.

***Doesn't matter what I think. The point is that you are reading into the quote what you want, and saying it's convincing. I'm sure it is to you, but you have nothing at all but your opinion. Whether it's beyond belief to you or not, thereis nothing at all in that quote about being beyond the Last Battle. At all. That is nothing but your own addition to it, and you're trying to use that itself as evidence. ***

It dosen't matter what you think? I respect your opinion on issues and everything, but you cannot debate this matter if it dosen't matter what you think. And where does it state it will be before? I never said that there was proof that it would be after, but when you add everything else in, it equals up.

***This is yet another thing. Where is it said that Rand "sheds" these masks?***

-"Rand, wearing different masks, until suddenly one of those false faces was no longer a mask, but him."-

It says one of those masks is no longer a mask, but him, and then it stops. It does not say the masks continue after that, which means that the masks will be gone.

***1. Ta'veren remain ta'veren as long as they are needed to be ta'veren by the Wheel. It's not like all ta'veren are ta'veren for 18 months, and then even if they're not done ~click~ no more ta'vereness.***

Exactly what I mean. After the Last Battle, he will no longer need to be tavern.

***3. There are two problems with you using the second point as if it lends credence to your theory. First, ta'veren are also no longer ta'veren once they're dead. See, when a ta'veren is dead, they're clearly not needed by the Wheel anymore, get it? Second, it is again built upon the supposition that ta'vereness is one mask that Rand needs to "shed."***

Yes, death would stop the taverness, but that is not going to happen, as I clearly expressed before. And why would tavern not be a mask?

***What was the second thing you said in this theory?

**Theory: The reason for this theory is to prove without a doubt, with no reason for skepticism, that Rand al'Thor will survive Tarmon Gai'don.**

Well, if you're using all this as evidence that it's beyond a doubt, and then simply not addressing objections but to exclaim "It makes more sense" or "There's no time for that," you're not going to show anything at all but your own predictions. Where is the clearly convincing evidence? Again, I don't see how it's any less "logical" (if not far more so) that all these events you refer to -- and then some -- occur before the Last Battle and then Rand still dies. Is there any objection you have at all to what I said, except to claim that you think your version is more "logical" or that there is "no time" for it? If not, I can't say anything but that the objection clearly stands.***

Okay, I will admit that statement may be a bit hasty. But, when you put it all together, there can only be one conclusion. Convincing evidence? Two main ones right here.

-Rand, wearing different masks, until suddenly one of those false faces was no longer a mask, but him."-

-"Logain, laughing, stepped across something on the ground and mounted a black stone; when she looked down, she thought it was Rand's body he had stepped over, laid out on a funeral bier with his hands crossed at his breast, but when she touched his face, it broke apart like a paper puppet.."-

There are the two main, convincing quotes. Again, I know the time thing is weak, but logically, the timing for this to happen after the Last Battle is overwhelmingly better then for it to happen before.

***No, the Prophecies do not speak of dying twice. Again, pay attention to the structure of the prophecy. It's two marks for death; not two deaths. You're reading it incorrectly.***

No Callandor, you are reading it incorrectly.

-"Twice and twice shall he be marked,

twice to live, and twice to die,

Once the heron to set his path.

Twice the heron, to name him true.

Once the Dragon for remembrance lost.

Twice the Dragon for the price he must pay."-

It comes out and says twice to die. You are not reading the whole quote, only select parts that you want to.

***It's quite hilarious that you seem to think I'm somehow being illogical, here. ***

Yes, it is greatly funny that you think that about yourself.

***3) Though I do agree that Rand will survive the Last Battle, nothing in that argument convinced me of this. It is full of opinions and speculation based on particular readings: you yourself say 'it could be this or that'. It also most certainly 'could be' something else. I have said once b4 consistency is important to me. This is a case in point. ***

But put it all together. You are seperating it; look at the big picture.

24

Kubla Khan: 2006-11-01

Very thourough. Personally, i beleive most of what you say (or I want to beleive it, which amounts to the same thing).

One thing that i would like to say is one thing doesn't check. "sacrifice for mans salvation" doensn't really sound like he'll be giving up a few drops of blood. It does sound like someones dying. But....

Rands "blood" could also mean something else. He has unborn children presently with Elayne, does he not? What is during his actions at Tarman Gai'don, he inadvertantly causes the death of his "blood" as in relatives/children. That would certainly be "sacrifice for mans salvation" wouldnt it?.

It would also make a good story in a biblical parallel sort of way.

But hey - just a possibility, dont rip me to shreds...

25

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-11-01

Prophetically, none state that Rand will die at the Last Battle

‘Prophetically’, there is no doubt whatsoever that Rand survives the Last Battle.

(This is mostly a restructure of the original post to clarify this matter)

Knife of Dreams Chapter 18 : (Rand thinking, re the snakes-n-foxes)

“He had asked how to win and survive. The last part of his answer had been “To live, you must die.’ Not something he was going to bring up in front of Min anytime soon. In front of anyone except Alivia, for that matter. Now he just had to figure out how to live by dying.”

Rand wants to bring it up with Alivia because of what Min saw ‘She’s going to help you die”, so Rand sees Alivia as helping him ‘die’ so that he can survive the Last Battle – he just hasn’t figured out how yet.

Now add in the numerous dreams/foretellings etc of Rand faking his own death on a funeral bier. One specifically says “He who is dead yet lives” which meets the requirements of ‘to live you must die’. The next part of that foretelling says “The great battle done, but the world not done with battles”, which obviously refers to the Last Battle and puts a timeframe to the fake death.

So, ‘prophetically’ it is very clear that Rand fakes his own death to survive the Last Battle.

……………………………………………..

Below is summary of the fake funeral stuff :

(The full quotes are in the OP)

……………………………………………..

(Mins viewing) “three women standing over a funeral bier with you in it"

(A Foretelling in Salidar) "The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle.

(Wise Ones dreams) Melaine and Bair dreamed of you [Rand] on a boat with three women

(Egwene’s dream) "she thought it was Rand's body he had stepped over, laid out on a funeral bier with his hands crossed at his breast, but when she touched his face, it broke apart like a paper puppet.."

26

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-11-01

Or another way of looking at things

1. Twice to live and twice to die

2. To live you must die (meets the needs on 1, but stands by itself as well)

3. He who is dead yet lives (meets the needs of 2, & 1)

4. She’s going to help you die (meets the needs of 2 & 3)

2. is Rands answer to how to survive the Last Battle

3. is after ‘the great battle done, but the world not done with battles’

Does Jordan really need to draw a clearer roadmap?

27

Wompat: 2006-11-01

Kubla Khan mentions another possible meaning for "his blood on the rocks," when he mentions Elayne's unborn twins. I think a far more likely possibility is that Galad will die on Shayol Ghul, especially now that he is becoming more and more active in his support for the pro light forces in TG.

28

Callandor: 2006-11-01

**That would completely defeat the purpose of laying on a funeral bier. The way you suggest, no funeral bier is necessary – just for the 3 women to say ‘Rand’s dead’.**

Mat and a whole lot of others leading a physical invasion force to Illian wasn't necessary either. Yet it was done.

**I can see how you can come to the conclusion that you have, and I know a lot of my quotes and evidence and line of thinking that I use is opinion based, and my own interperations. But when you put all of it together, nothing else makes sense.**

This is truly unbelievable. Take a moment and stop thinking as if I'm incapable of logical thought here. What did you say in the beginning fo this theory?

**Theory: The reason for this theory is to prove without a doubt, with no reason for skepticism, that Rand al'Thor will survive Tarmon Gai'don.**

You freely admit that 90% of your "evidence" for this is nothing other than your interpretation and what you yourself read into those quotes.

Of course nothing else is going to make sense to anyone but you -- because those things that you're using for evidence ARE NOT THERE. I cannot emphasize this enough.

You are adding things to these quotes that are simply not there. You're fabricating your own answer out of nothing.

And you have the gall to say that nothing else makes sense? Hey, I'd agree with you, with only one alteration: nothing else makes sense, if you use just the book evidence.

If you want to open this to whatever anyone wants to add to the quotes, I can convince myself of some pretty strange crap then. Amazingly, I don't do this -- I use just what's given in the books.

**Yes, Jesus died, but do you think Jordan is going to copy it exactly?**

Actually read what I said:

**Yet amazingly all messiahs have this thing in common: they die martyrs. I can't recall, what has Jordan called Rand?**

The Christ example is just a subset of the "messiah" archetype. As Jordan said, even King Arthur is a "messiah."

And the entire point of the aside comments were to show how it's idiotic to say that because Christ was crucified, that either Rand would be or that Jordan is diverging from that influence. Again, he's doing both in this way: he's still giving the elements of the crucifiction, and doing them in different ways.

But all this is just again extraneous. The key point: messiahs die for their causes -- they die martyrs. Christ is just the most famous example of this.

**I'd like to see the solid proof you are begging me for.**

Uh, ok. I would too. Hence why I'm asking you for it (even though there I'm not...).

**Yes, but is this true prophecy? And if it is , prophecies have aren't always the obvious, and this one could have already happened, for all we know.**

Again, are you going to rely on what you said with the "simple meaning" (as you should) or are you going to continue to say that things are so confusing, convoluted, and just unknowable? And yet you say this is so cut and dry simple, and undoubtable....

**Think about it Callandor. If Min had seen for sure that Rand would die, we would have seen it in her POV's for sure. It is one plus one equals two, but you are trying to say it equals three.**

1. I have -- quite a lot more than you, it appears.

2. Again, look to the example of Min refusing to accept that the Prophecies say that Rand will die. She doens't want to accept it, so of course she says that they don't (even though they do). This would just as easily be another example.

3. It's ridiculous to assume that because Min will see viewings, that we'll see it in her point of view. She's seen tons of them where we were not in her point of view; which just defaults to the above point.

**Did I state that I was the only one allowed to use that statement. No. I said that I was applying it only to that statement. You are free to apply it to anything you want, but you just can't do it with my name behind it.**

Translation: I can do anything, even if it makes no sense.

Again, that is a good rule. Look for the simple meaning. You corrupted it to hell in the "one instance" you used it for, and then refuse to have it use for any other instance. It's pathetic. It's nothing other than you trying to cling to convenience to make your "evidence" more appealing to you. When simple "suits you" it's simple; when it's a problem, well, it's a complex issue you see....

**It dosen't matter what you think? I respect your opinion on issues and everything, but you cannot debate this matter if it dosen't matter what you think. And where does it state it will be before? I never said that there was proof that it would be after, but when you add everything else in, it equals up.**

1. No, it doesn't matter on this point what I think -- it doesn't matter at all what you think on this at all even. The point is again: You are adding in your own opinions as if they were FACTS and EVIDENCE.

That is why my opinion on the matter doesn't having any bearing. That is why you're opinion on it truly does not matter. It matters that you are doing this. It's like saying it matters why someone thought to kill another person, when we're discussing if they did or didn't kill someone.

2. Again, you're having a big difficulty with a very simple thing. Here is what you originally said:

**2.4-Egwene's Dream of the Many Masks

-The Path Of Daggers, Chapter 15, Stronger Then Written Law, Page 308

-Egwene's POV, Dreaming in the Rebel Camp

"Rand, wearing different masks, until suddenly one of those false faces was no longer a mask, but him."

-I take this as meaning that after Tarmon Gai'don, not only will he desert all of his titles (The Dragon Reborn, Lord of The Morning, King of Illian, ect. . .), but that, again, Lews Therin and Moridin will leave him. His tavereness too, by the way. This has to be after the Last Battle because he cannot give up being the Dragon Reborn before that; the pattern won't let him.**

And then my comments:

**Well, I'm glad you ascribed this to yourself, but where are you getting this about Rand abandoning his titles? Nothing about them in the quote. Where is this pertaining to being after the Last Battle? Nothing aboutt that in the quote. Nothing about ta'vereness either.**

And then your comments following this up:

**One of those masks very easily could have been the King of Illian, or the Lord Of The Morning. About pertaining to the Last Battle, do you seriously expect him to give everything up before the Last Battle? Thats crazy. The only logical way he could shed the masks is after he has that mountain off his back, and that cannot happen until after the Last Battle, which leads to him surviving. Again, one of those masks could be taverness. I remember Moiraine saying Taverns only stay taverns for a set amount of time. The logical time for him to lose his taverness is after the Last Battle.**

This is again quite simple. You were saying this has to be after the Last Battle. There is nothing about the Last Battle in that quote, let alone a requirement that it has to be afterwards. You're making a claim that is utterly and completely baseless.

And now your asking where is it in the quote that it says this occurs before the Last Battle. The point is that you are again adding in only what you want there to be with NO BASIS but your opinion.

And then to top it all off you say that you weren't using this as proof (as I said in the original that you did -- the only such instance in your original post that you did so for your own opinions being used as evidence), but say it in a way so as to say "There's no proof for this, but when you look at the other proof, it's proven."

**It says one of those masks is no longer a mask, but him, and then it stops. It does not say the masks continue after that, which means that the masks will be gone.**

Ah, so apparently Rand sheds the masks in question -- yet still has a mask. Which kind of defeats the purpose of shedding these masks. Let's say that all the suppositions and your own opinions you read into this are correct -- then what's to stop the one mask from being Rand from being say the King of Illian? Or Car'a'carn? What's to stop those "masks" from being maintained, and the mask of a beggar from being discarded?

As well, this hinges on the point that the masks do not continue past this point -- which as you said, the passage just stops. It neither says they continue nor stop. Another supposition of yours.

**Exactly what I mean. After the Last Battle, he will no longer need to be tavern.**

Maybe what you meant but hardly clear with what you said. You said "set time" which again isn't as if all ta'veren are such for 18 months and then not anymore regardless of anything else. The fact that their ta'veren for as long as the Wheel desires, varying from days to years, makes saying that it's a "set time" in the context quite wrong phrasing.

**Yes, death would stop the taverness, but that is not going to happen, as I clearly expressed before. And why would tavern not be a mask?**

1. You're using this larger point -- that the masks will be shed after the Last Battle -- as evidence that Rand will live. But when I say that you can lose ta'vereness by dying, you're saying that the evidence given shows that will not occur.

But if you just want to say that you "expressed" this, by all means you most certainly did. It's a synonym for saying you claimed it will occur. You did indeed -- and I'm challenging that claim. Provide evidence for it, evidence that isn't depenant wholly on Rand surviving the Last Battle.

2. Why would ta'veren not be a mask? Well for one it's not something Rand himself can shed as with anything else your claiming is such a mask -- like being the King of Illian. Rand doesn't control being ta'veren; he can't put someone else in his place to be ta'veren. Again, Rand will be ta'veren until the Wheel deems it necessary for him to no longer be ta'veren.

(Of course this all depends on the suppositions that these titles and ta'vereness are truly those "masks" and that Rand is "shedding" them.)

**Okay, I will admit that statement may be a bit hasty. But, when you put it all together, there can only be one conclusion.**

~Sigh~

See, there is again this double-speak element to your posts. You say one thing quite good -- for instance here that you were hasty in saying your case is uncontravertable -- and then you do a complete 180 and say that there is only one conclusion.... Which I can't help but say is just a euphemism for saying that your stance is uncontravertable. Do you see the great conflict here? On one hand, you're entering into the territory that there just could be other ways to read what is actually being said in these passages -- and then next saying that there can only be one conclusion: your's.

**There are the two main, convincing quotes. Again, I know the time thing is weak, but logically, the timing for this to happen after the Last Battle is overwhelmingly better then for it to happen before.**

Another example for this, only a little bit easier on me to point this out. You first say that the timing element is weak. I'd take quite a lot of argument for that -- it's not weak, it has no evidence for this except your own additions. And then you say that even though your argument is "weak" it so overwhelming.

**It comes out and says twice to die. You are not reading the whole quote, only select parts that you want to.**

Ok, this is getting to the point of being political mudslinging -- and just as obviously false. Care to look at the actual statements I've made on this topic? Well, I'm sure going to. First post:

**Rand will be marked twice and twice (for a total of four markings). Two markings for life; two markings for death. Two herons for life -- Rand received both of these in The Great Hunt, the second of which was when he proclaimed himself the Dragon Reborn. This is obviously the life part. The two dragons he got in Rhuidean. Following the rest of the structure, they're obviously showing that Rand is set to die.**

Where am I focusing only on "select parts" of this?

Second post (the one you quoted -- though it's a very interesting thing that you did when you were at the time discussing my third post...):

**No, the Prophecies do not speak of dying twice. Again, pay attention to the structure of the prophecy. It's two marks for death; not two deaths. You're reading it incorrectly.**

Hmm, notice how I specifically point out that you need to pay attention to the structure of the prophecy? Which is again completely in line with what I said in the first post I made?

Fourt post:

**There are always two ways at least to read something -- they come down to correct, and incorrect. This isn't just an arrogant thing to say -- there simply is no other way to read the passage without simply NOT understanding it at all. That is what you're pushing for: that we all toss aside our reading comprehension and join you in complete fabrication of what is actually said.

...

Yeah, except for one thing: you're completely taking the quote out of context. Again, look at the structure of the prophecy. Rand will be marked twice and twice. Twice to live -- IE: he'll receive to marks to show that the Dragon is reborn; which he did. And twice to die -- two marks to show he's on his path to death; which he did receive as well.

Again, this is like with the call for "clarification." There's nothing to be clarified. You're simply reading the passage wrong. There's not always two valid ways to read something -- one can, and in this case is, simply wrong.**

Quite amazing. I specifically point out that the quote had been deliberately taken out of context, and again state that the structure is the important part to know. Which is again completely in line with what I said in the very first post I made in this thread.

While I'm particularly glad you're finally realizing the prophecy says "die" and are focused on that (even if it's just to indulge the delusion it refers to two deaths) -- as well since you so nicely gave up on the point of Min being wrong about the prophecies saying so -- there is simply nothing that can be done here except continue to say the exact same thing I've said since the beginning.

Read the Prophecy. You quoted it at me as if you were proving something -- you obviously have seen it. Read it, and pay attention to the structure.

Rand will be marked four times -- in two sets of two: "twice and twice shall he be marked."

One set (two marks) to show that he will live; one set (two marks) to show that he will die: "twice to live, and twice to die."

And then the four marks are further discussed, but the importance at hand is in the first two lines.

So you see now how you saying I am only reading the "select parts" that I want to is completely absurd -- in all honesty, bordering on shameful.

But in the end I am glad you've moved on from the silly arguments of the "loophole" of Rand dying, the "no more time" argument, and the completely unrelated 4th Age quotes. Progress is progress, even if you don't admit to it.

29

vardene: 2006-11-02

hmmm, thanks cholly,

however in real life its always a bad idea to pick and chose prophesy based on personal bias/opinion. Even in randland, the D.P. does not confirm the victory of the shadow. it ends with: "now the G.L. comes" nothing comes after. Many among the followers of the shadow and even some of the posts i've seen dont see rand with a chance once the DO is free.Yet prophecy is clear that he will be free and still acknowledges the possibility of rand being victorious. It will not be a contest of muscle. D.P. doesn't have to be invalid because we want the light to win, let your theory acknowledge these so it'll be more accurate.

i see it happening this way: rand will become beggar like, be forced to confront the DO (after the seachan have slain ancient wrong) get killed (and alanna dies) be revived by logain or the 3women, and defeat the DO. I wont try to reason this out too closely since i so looove surprises.

30

BigBlade: 2006-11-02

Khan has a good point there since they did call LTT Kinslayer because he killed his bloodline but it also could be some form of foreshadowing.

31

Dragon: 2006-11-03

Cholly, you said to my reply:

** Yes. It is obvious that Rand will figure it out to do all of this after he survives the Last Battle, and wonders what to do with himself. **

I'm not sure if you understood my point, or if I understand you correctly.

I'm with you that Rand will definitely survive the Last Battle.

My point to support you was that RJ obviously created a plotline regarding Rand's apparently prophecied death, expected by almost everyone, and Rand's desperate attempt to avoid it nonetheless.

Rand learned from the Aelfinn that he can survive the Last Battle. The paradox is that they said, he has to "die" to survive the Last Battle. Hu?! That sounds impossible at first.

But every reader who is familiar RJ's style just a little bit, should know that Rand will, of course, figure out in the next book what the Aelfinn's riddle really means, thus avoid his death and survive the Last Battle.

Rand is already pondering the Aelfinn's answer in KoD and apparently discussed its meaning or will discuss it yet with Alivia.

I agree with you that the solution is most likely that it's necessary for Rand to fake his death to survive the Last Battle.

To believe that Rand won't figure this out and will truely die in the Last Battle is obviously wrong in my eyes.

But let us read and find out!

32

Chang: 2006-11-03

***Aelfinn say "To live, you must die." Can point to rebirth or a fake death.***

**In terms of what the snakes-n-foxes said - if Rand is ‘born again/reborn/to live’, he must ‘die’ first – it points to both.**

Thank you. that is precisely what I said.

**That would completely defeat the purpose of laying on a funeral bier. The way you suggest, no funeral bier is necessary – just for the 3 women to say ‘Rand’s dead’.**

Rand is surrounded by darkfriends, thinks Taim might be one, and knows he will be spied upon. He might, perhaps, want to make it look realistic.

**-"Twice and twice shall he be marked,

twice to live, and twice to die,

Once the heron to set his path.

Twice the heron, to name him true.

Once the Dragon for remembrance lost.

Twice the Dragon for the price he must pay."-

It comes out and says twice to die. You are not reading the whole quote, only select parts that you want to.**

This quote should be read as saying that he will be marked twice to die i.e. that two of the marks he will receive signify that he must die. Which two marks out of his four markings point to this is yours to decide,. It could be the dragons, but given that one heron mark is 'to set his path', presumably on a course that ends with his sacrifice, to his blood being spilt etc. it might be that. One is definitely the dragon for the price he must pay. It may just be a case of mix and match. But that's irrelevant. The point is that he receives two marks that will signify his impending death.

***It's clear that Rand will solve this riddle and figure out how to survive the LB, like he figured out how to cleanse saidin, etc. It's a typical RJ pattern. ***

I personally hope he does live. But with RJ, the thing is he knows we want Rand to live, that we may deny the logic of the situation to ourselves in the hope that Rand lives.

**Personally, i believe most of what you say, or I want to beleive it, which amounts to the same thing- Kubla Khan** [note evidence to prove theory]

And he may just shock us by ruthlessly following through on that logic rather than giving in to sentimentality. It does make more logical sense (i.e. the evidence suggests) that Rand kicks the bucket.

The two quotes that are being primarily used to dispel this notion are:

Egwene and her dream of Rand wearing many masks until one is no longer a mask, but him.

There are quite a few ways to read this. I thought the many masks bit was that Rand has become so irretrievably different from wearing masks all the time, that he has no substantive personality of his own and has become a completely fake and controlled person. Unable to be natural around anyone, even Min (he is always trying to be strong, etc. hide his weakness from her)

"Logain, laughing, stepped across something on the ground and mounted a black stone; when she looked down, she thought it was Rand's body he had stepped over, laid out on a funeral bier with his hands crossed at his breast, but when she touched his face, it broke apart like a paper puppet.."

**The most obvious assumption is that after Tarmon Gai'don, Rand dies and Logain gets credit for defeating the DO, and being the Dragon Reborn. That is half right, half wrong. Logain will get credit, but Rand will still be alive.**

I just don't see how this is the most obvious assumption. It could be anything from Logain killing Rand, to Rand faking his death (which seems the best possibility especially given that Logain steps on a black stone which could represent the black tower). The premise was that it has to be after the LB and this isn't said anywhere.

**The important part of this is 'to live, you must die'. Some would take that as saying that Rand will die, but the Dragon Reborn will live on. What it really means is for Rand to live, he must 'die' from the world, go away, hide. Become beggar-like.**

Agreed, it could mean that he may die away from the world. But it's also possible that at the end, the last battle will be whether Rand wants to give up all he is, all the masks he wears, and become just Rand again: or whether he will want to keep his power. And that in order to win, to live again, to be reborn, since the dark one will break the wheel if he wins, he must sheathe the sword, and die. Just a theory, but equally likely given another reading of that quote. Highly likely in my opinion. Just an opinion :).

**Seems, consistent to me – numerous quotes all pointing to the same thing (re Rand’s fake death), and Rand asking the snakes-n-foxes how he can survive the last battle -and they say ‘to live you must die’.**

Numerous quotes which, if read in certain ways, point to the same thing. When I say consistent, I mean that one way of reading a quote should be applied across the board to all of them. Or several different ways of reading them applied across the board to all of them. That is consistency.

33

Cholly: 2006-11-04

Snakes

That is exactly what I mean, with the prophecies pointing to the fake funeral. Thank you.

Callandor,

I am sorry if I somehow insulted you, especially in the way that I think, and put words down. Yes, I agree with you that is is largely opinion based, but every theory is. If it wasn't, it would be accepted fact. This theory may have more loopholes then most, but, as I have been saying, when you put it all together, it is impossible not to see what will happen. I do not see how Jordan can spell it out any more blantantly.

I would like to politly ask you, Callandor, for evidence of any assumption I made from a quote that 100% not be true, that is totally wrong without a doubt. If I did this, I am sorry. But I believe every word I have said has a quote behind it, and although you critize me for going way off base with quotes, yours are just as far, just maybe worded better. We are on totally opposite sides, so our meanings and how we take it are going to be different.

***This is truly unbelievable. Take a moment and stop thinking as if I'm incapable of logical thought here.***

I am not saying you are incapable of a logical thought. You have to realize that we are on opposite sides.

***You freely admit that 90% of your "evidence" for this is nothing other than your interpretation and what you yourself read into those quotes.

Of course nothing else is going to make sense to anyone but you -- because those things that you're using for evidence ARE NOT THERE. I cannot emphasize this enough.

You are adding things to these quotes that are simply not there. You're fabricating your own answer out of nothing.

And you have the gall to say that nothing else makes sense? Hey, I'd agree with you, with only one alteration: nothing else makes sense, if you use just the book evidence.

If you want to open this to whatever anyone wants to add to the quotes, I can convince myself of some pretty strange crap then. Amazingly, I don't do this -- I use just what's given in the books. ***

I am confused; what am I adding to the quotes. I am merely inteperating them, as I am sure you do all the time. And I do say that nothing makes sense when you look at the big picture. Indivudally, none of these quotes decide Rand's fate, but put them together, and it is like Jordan put a giant HE WILL LIVE sign in the middle of each book. I'm just asking you to look at the big picture. Again, my opinons are in here, but all of them can be backed up with book evidence. If you think otherwise, give me what you think that is and I will gladly try to explain how the interpation and the quote go together.

***Again, are you going to rely on what you said with the "simple meaning" (as you should) or are you going to continue to say that things are so confusing, convoluted, and just unknowable? And yet you say this is so cut and dry simple, and undoubtable.... ***

I don't see how anything I am saying is anymore confusing or farfetched then what you are. We are on opposite sides. What I am saying is the direct opposite of what you are because we believe different things. How is this confusing?

***. It's ridiculous to assume that because Min will see viewings, that we'll see it in her point of view. She's seen tons of them where we were not in her point of view; which just defaults to the above point. ***

If she had seen a vision that said Rand was going to die when we were not benefit to her POV, she would be thinking about it during her POV's, so we would know about it. And that didn't happen, so Min has not had a vision of Rand's death, and the prophecies do not say Rand will die. See Snake's statement on this, it is worded very well.

***1. No, it doesn't matter on this point what I think -- it doesn't matter at all what you think on this at all even. The point is again: You are adding in your own opinions as if they were FACTS and EVIDENCE.

That is why my opinion on the matter doesn't having any bearing. That is why you're opinion on it truly does not matter. It matters that you are doing this. It's like saying it matters why someone thought to kill another person, when we're discussing if they did or didn't kill someone.***

Okay, I apologize if I am adding in my own opinions as if they are facts. I assume that people know that. It is part of having a strong theory. It wouldn't be a theory if my opinons were facts, which they aren't. I just believe they will be. I will try and seprate them in the future better, if it suits you. But all of my opinions that seem like facts to you can be infered just as easily from the real evidence as yours.

***This is again quite simple. You were saying this has to be after the Last Battle. There is nothing about the Last Battle in that quote, let alone a requirement that it has to be afterwards. You're making a claim that is utterly and completely baseless***

How is it baseless to think that the Dragon Reborn is not a mask?

***Ah, so apparently Rand sheds the masks in question -- yet still has a mask. Which kind of defeats the purpose of shedding these masks. Let's say that all the suppositions and your own opinions you read into this are correct -- then what's to stop the one mask from being Rand from being say the King of Illian? Or Car'a'carn? What's to stop those "masks" from being maintained, and the mask of a beggar from being discarded?

As well, this hinges on the point that the masks do not continue past this point -- which as you said, the passage just stops. It neither says they continue nor stop. Another supposition of yours. ***

He does not still have a mask. The him that is mentioned near the end of it clearly signifies that the masks, or what Rand has been for these years, go away, and Rand, just plain old Rand with no strings attached is left. And yes, the passage just stops,but one, the way it is worded, it makes it seem that the masks stopped after that. That is just my opinon, for your benefit. Two, nowhere before the Last Battle can Rand become Rand again. Until he fights the Last Battle, he will truely be the Dragon Reborn, and many other things, even if there is someone masquerading as him. He will be the true one, and the pattern recognizes this. So, he cannot lose his titles and powers-or, in other words, masks- until after the Last Battle.

***See, there is again this double-speak element to your posts. You say one thing quite good -- for instance here that you were hasty in saying your case is uncontravertable -- and then you do a complete 180 and say that there is only one conclusion.... Which I can't help but say is just a euphemism for saying that your stance is uncontravertable. Do you see the great conflict here? On one hand, you're entering into the territory that there just could be other ways to read what is actually being said in these passages -- and then next saying that there can only be one conclusion: your's. ***

I mean when you put it all together. I know you would never accept what I say even if I could write picture perfect for you, clear as day, and that is because it has my opinions in it. But your side does as well, and it does not string together at all.

My forth age quotes are not unrelated. They are neutral for both sides of the argument, since they do not mention his dying or living. All I was saying in this was that we have nothing from the future saying Rand would die (or live.)

About the time arguement, again, it is extremely weak, and I recognized that. It just had to be added in.

Now onto this matter.

***"Twice and twice shall he be marked,

twice to live, and twice to die,

Once the heron to set his path.

Twice the heron, to name him true.

Once the Dragon for remembrance lost.

Twice the Dragon for the price he must pay."***

There are multiple ways that you can look at the statement twice to die and say he will live.

One, he will die a public death and have someone take over for him, signifying a death, and live a private life, then die.

Two, there is the old balefire arguement, which I really don't like, and I doubt you do either.

I tend to go for the first one. Honestly, again, see what Snake said about this. I would say the same, and Snake says it better then I could.

And even if Snake thinks this will happen before the Last Battle, it still applies.

His death is not prophiczed. If anything, the prophecies say he will live.

Vardene-

I was not trying to discredit the prophecy-I was just not sure if this was real prophecy. The shadow has prophecies, but they must say the shadow will win, which is directly opposite of the light prophecies.

Dragon, I understood what you said, I just didn't word it right. Sorry.

34

Ron al Doskam: 2006-11-04

Good theory Chooly, like it and agree with you.

Still there are certain statements not quite right.

First of all:

*"A man lay dying in a narrow bed, and it was important that he not die, yet outside a funeral pyre was being built, and voices raised songs of joy and sadness."*

This dream of Egwene isn't about Rand, but about Harid Fell's upcoming death. But Harid Fell has probely the answer of Rand survival hidden somewhere in his books and Min shall find the answer in it.

Callandor.

*Again, what happened to the simple meanings you mentioned before? Rand being told he must die means instead that he should take a vaction? Or that he needs to -- it's so complicated I know! -- die? *

I agree with you that Rand shall die. The finns has said it. But in away that his death shall give him live

"To live you must die."

Also the prophcies say it also:

Twice to live, and twice to die.

There only one other person who was told to die and live agian. Mat.

Into the Doorway, page 253:

"To die and live again, and live once more the part of what was.

And Mat already has died and started to live again, it al happened during the raid on caemlyn in TFOH.

Further more who can already know that the Last Battle has started in KoD. This via the prophecies of the Seanchan:

"When the Wolf King carries the hammer, thus the final days are known. When the fox marries the raven, and the trumpets of battle are blown.

So the statement of Rand dying before the last Battle the first time isn't possible anymore. Him being a beggar, can be seen when he visited the Royal Palace in Andor and went as a beggar (diguise).

So we are left with the fact that Rand has to die (twice) and to live (twice)

"Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.Once for mourning, once for birth."

Rand is now living his first life. Just as Mat is living his second. He still has to die, which shall happen at the Last Battle at the rocks of SG. But he shall be born again or start his second life that same day.

After al it is al in the prophecies

;-).

35

Callandor: 2006-11-04

**So, ‘prophetically’ it is very clear that Rand fakes his own death to survive the Last Battle.**

Except for that whole dying part; that's kinda lacking....

**Rand learned from the Aelfinn that he can survive the Last Battle. The paradox is that they said, he has to "die" to survive the Last Battle. Hu?! That sounds impossible at first.

But every reader who is familiar RJ's style just a little bit, should know that Rand will, of course, figure out in the next book what the Aelfinn's riddle really means, thus avoid his death and survive the Last Battle.**

Unless it's a very simple meaning: Rand dies, and his soul lives on to be reborn again and again.

**Yes, I agree with you that is is largely opinion based, but every theory is. If it wasn't, it would be accepted fact. This theory may have more loopholes then most, but, as I have been saying, when you put it all together, it is impossible not to see what will happen.**

1. No, theories are not largely opinion based. They argue for a set opinion based on fact. What you're doing is taking anything that even tenuously (and some cases hardly so) supports your view and then putting in whatever you believe -- and not accepting anything else but your opinion as if it's evidence. There is a huge difference to that.

2. And you're continuing to do this, as in the section I quoted. To you, there's nothing else but what you believe that could ever occur -- but you're not attaining this position because the evidence fully supports it. You're reaching this because it's what you want it to be, even if the evidence you claim has absolutely no support for what you believe but what you read into it.

**But I believe every word I have said has a quote behind it, and although you critize me for going way off base with quotes, yours are just as far, just maybe worded better.**

Excuse me?

Let's see:

**-In all of the Prophecies listed above, not one says Rand will die. They mention his blood. Oh wow, big deal. So, from everything listed above, there is not one shred of evidence that Rand will die in Tarmon Gai'don.**

The quote that invalidates this you yuorself quoted.

And how about this example:

**2.2-Min's Lews/Moridin Viewing

-A Crown Of Swords, Chapter 33, A Bath, Page 526

-Rand's POV, talking to Min in the Royal Palace in Cairhien

She folded her arms and frowned up at him through her lashes. She chewed her lip and frowned at the door. She shook her head and muttered under her breath. At last she said," There is only one, really. I was exaggerating. I saw you and another man. I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another,and. . . ." Her mouth tightened worriedly, and she went on in a very small voice. I don't know which it means, Rand except that one of you dies and one dosen't. I-why are you grinning? This isn't a joke, Rand. I do not know which of you dies."

-This means that after Tarmon Gai'don, Lews Therin will leave Rand in peace.**

Look at that, nothing about after the Last Battle or about Lews Therin.

Or this:

**2.3-Egwene's Dream of the Dying Man

-A Crown Of Sword, Chapter 10, Unseen Eyes, Page 203

-Egwene's POV, Dreaming in the Rebel Camp

"A man lay dying in a narrow bed, and it was important that he not die, yet outside a funeral pyre was being built, and voices raised songs of joy and sadness."

-I thought I'd just throw this in here. This refers to Rand's current situation; it is ongoing, happening right now. I mean, he is pretty beat up.**

As I said in my first post of this thread about this: "Yet, again, where are you getting this? It could very well be Rand -- or it could very well be someone else entirely. And even if it does refer to Rand, how does it show that he will survive the Last Battle? It's just important that he not die -- until it's time for him to die."

You've given numerous examples of this throughout this thread. You read and/or add in whatever it is you need to make your belief convincing to you.

**I am not saying you are incapable of a logical thought. You have to realize that we are on opposite sides.**

Really? Hmmm, I guess this quote by you is just made up:

**If you look at everything logically, you will see my point, Callandor.**

Now, there would be no reason for you to say this, unless you believe I'm somehow being illogical -- since I'm not falling into lockstep with your proposed ideas.

(As an aside, I've always seen your point -- almost all of them are either your own readings or addition acting as proof or you saying something is proof for your view when it's completely irrelevant. The key thing is: I can see exactly what your point is, and it can still be completely unconvincing and not a point at all.)

**I am confused; what am I adding to the quotes. I am merely inteperating them, as I am sure you do all the time.**

Look again at the numerous examples that you add in that things are after the Last Battle. You call it interpreting? Ok. You're "interpreting" things that are not there. Hence, why you are adding things in.

And no, again, I do not add things in. I use the actual evidence from the books.

**And I do say that nothing makes sense when you look at the big picture. Indivudally, none of these quotes decide Rand's fate, but put them together, and it is like Jordan put a giant HE WILL LIVE sign in the middle of each book. I'm just asking you to look at the big picture.**

Yet again, just about all those specific examples that you use as evidence have your own additions to them.

Get this.

You're taking the actual quote from the book -- and adding a subjective element to them, and trying to take them for fact. And then you have the gall to say that only this is the "logical" outcome.

**Again, my opinons are in here, but all of them can be backed up with book evidence. If you think otherwise, give me what you think that is and I will gladly try to explain how the interpation and the quote go together.**

See, this is just the thing I've been doing -- oh -- every single post I've made here. And it is again not interpretation. You are adding in what you want to add in, so you can convince yourself.

**I don't see how anything I am saying is anymore confusing or farfetched then what you are. We are on opposite sides. What I am saying is the direct opposite of what you are because we believe different things. How is this confusing?**

Read again what I said to see that I am not confused by what you are saying. You were the one to use the "simple meaning" when it suited you (and claim that it's not applicable when it doesn't work in your favor). You are then saying:

**Yes, but is this true prophecy? And if it is , prophecies have aren't always the obvious, and this one could have already happened, for all we know.**

Hey, how about that. When it suits your needs, these prophecies are just so complicated, confusing, and unknowable. So, who is the one espousing to be anything approaching confused, here? You are.

**If she had seen a vision that said Rand was going to die when we were not benefit to her POV, she would be thinking about it during her POV's, so we would know about it. And that didn't happen, so Min has not had a vision of Rand's death, and the prophecies do not say Rand will die. See Snake's statement on this, it is worded very well.**

That's funny. You know what, we didn't hear, and haven't heard, anything about a sword that isn't a sword, a golden crown of laurel leaves, a beggar's staff, Rand pouring water on sand, a bloody hand and white-hot iron, three women standing over a funeral bier with Rand on it, a black rock wet with blood, lightning around Rand, some striking at Rand, some coming out of Rand -- and all of those are things that Min saw in her first known viewing of Rand. How strange. She hasn't even thought about them ever since to our knowledge.

It's again ludicrous to claim that if Min has a viewing and we're not in her point of view, that she must think of it again.

(Not to mention the fact that you are again using the absence of evidence as evidence.)

**Okay, I apologize if I am adding in my own opinions as if they are facts. I assume that people know that. It is part of having a strong theory. It wouldn't be a theory if my opinons were facts, which they aren't. I just believe they will be. I will try and seprate them in the future better, if it suits you. But all of my opinions that seem like facts to you can be infered just as easily from the real evidence as yours.**

Let me translate again: Ok, you caught me skewing things, but this doesn't detract from anything, so I can go on with my delusions as if true.

Take the statement of your's that I just quoted and compare it to the original stated purpose of this theory:

**Theory: The reason for this theory is to prove without a doubt, with no reason for skepticism, that Rand al'Thor will survive Tarmon Gai'don.**

And then this later example:

**I can see how you can come to the conclusion that you have, and I know a lot of my quotes and evidence and line of thinking that I use is opinion based, and my own interperations. But when you put all of it together, nothing else makes sense.**

Or this one:

**Yes, death would stop the taverness, but that is not going to happen, as I clearly expressed before.**

Or this one:

**But, when you put it all together, there can only be one conclusion.**

I stated this very simply in my previous posts. You're admiting that you are making up a large portion of the "evidence" you are using. Yet, you claim that this is proven, "without a doubt" and "without room for skepticism" and that nothing else but your view makes sense. How can you not process that fundamental contradiction?

You're saying that much of your "evidence" is subjectively biased, but that this notion is somehow proven by that subjectivity.

You say you're sorry for this, yet then you persist in this folly.

**How is it baseless to think that the Dragon Reborn is not a mask?**

Because there's nothing to base it on? You're just supposing it is.

(Oh, and you might want to actually address the other elements of that section, particularly when you were demanding evidence from me to somehow show that you're doing nothing but supposing this "evidence," and then saying what amounts to "There's no proof for this, but when you look at the other proof, it's proven.")

**He does not still have a mask. The him that is mentioned near the end of it clearly signifies that the masks, or what Rand has been for these years, go away, and Rand, just plain old Rand with no strings attached is left.**

In what reading are you getting this from? Take a look again:

**"Rand, wearing different masks, until suddenly one of those false faces was no longer a mask, but him."**

Since I can't help but think you need to be guided in this, it's quite simple. Rand is wearing different masks. These are not Rand -- hence why they are masks. Then, one of those masks becomes what Rand truly is -- Rand has changed into something false. And as you said, there is no mention of the masks continuing; and what you left out to complete that, there is no mention to the masks stopping.

**And yes, the passage just stops,but one, the way it is worded, it makes it seem that the masks stopped after that. That is just my opinon, for your benefit.**

Glad you're finally learning.

**Two, nowhere before the Last Battle can Rand become Rand again. Until he fights the Last Battle, he will truely be the Dragon Reborn, and many other things, even if there is someone masquerading as him. He will be the true one, and the pattern recognizes this. So, he cannot lose his titles and powers-or, in other words, masks- until after the Last Battle.**

Notice how you left out the part where you mention this is your opinion? Your second point hinges on your first -- which you already said was an opinion.

Again, saying that all your suppositions (and there are many, of course) are correct, what makes it so that Rand doesn't keep the "mask" of say the King of Illian, or Car'a'carn? What is to stop the beggar from being a mask at one point -- and then being one of the many ones that is "shed?"

**I mean when you put it all together. I know you would never accept what I say even if I could write picture perfect for you, clear as day, and that is because it has my opinions in it. But your side does as well, and it does not string together at all.**

How lovely irrelevant to what I said. Again, you were saying that you might have been hasty in the section -- and then you said that there can only be one conclusion (obviously refering to your own). There is one hell of a contradiction there, and you're either feigning ignorance to it or simply cannot see it.

**My forth age quotes are not unrelated. They are neutral for both sides of the argument, since they do not mention his dying or living. All I was saying in this was that we have nothing from the future saying Rand would die (or live.)**

Hey, I like having semantic discussions for specifics as well, but this is pointless.

You're admitting what you gave in the 4th Age quotes does not support either side. It does nothing for your arugment, and does nothing to detract from the arugment that Rand will die.

Hence, they are irrelevant. It's like you quoting examples of Birgitte's archery skills. No, it doesn't support your side, nor does it take away from mine. Hence why it has no point in this discussion and is irrelevant.

**About the time arguement, again, it is extremely weak, and I recognized that. It just had to be added in.**

Please. Look again at what you said:

**Again, I know the time thing is weak, but logically, the timing for this to happen after the Last Battle is overwhelmingly better then for it to happen before.**

There's no possible for you to have an "overwhelmingly better" but "weak" argument. Either it's not a weak argument, but quite strong -- or it's not overwhelmingly better. This is yet another contradiction.

(Also ignores the fact that your argument isn' even "weak" -- it's non-existant since it's all based on what you add into it.)

**There are multiple ways that you can look at the statement twice to die and say he will live.**

Yeah, there are multiple ways to look at this... and you give two. And don't even include the simplest one: that Rand actually dies.

And you apparently refuse to retract your patently false statement:

**It comes out and says twice to die. You are not reading the whole quote, only select parts that you want to.**

I've more than demonstrated that this is nonsense. Man up to it, and retract it. Along with many other such instances.

**There only one other person who was told to die and live agian. Mat.**

But that is not what Rand was told. Rand was told that if he would live, he must die. Mat was told that he was fated to die and live again. It may seem like a subtle difference, but Mat was told that he was going to be Mat after "dying." Rand was not. But Rand, and everyone else, always lives again -- when their soul is reborn.

**So we are left with the fact that Rand has to die (twice) and to live (twice)**

Again, no, look at the structure and reading of the prophecy -- it's two markings for living, two markings for death. Not two lives and two deaths.

36

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-11-07

**But that is not what Rand was told. Rand was told that if he would live, he must die. Mat was told that he was fated to die and live again. It may seem like a subtle difference, but Mat was told that he was going to be Mat after "dying." Rand was not. But Rand, and everyone else, always lives again -- when their soul is reborn.**

Is this your position then Callandor – that Rand dies at the last battle and that Rand ‘surviving’ the last battle means that to Rand’s soul being born again?

Would you care to justify how you believe RJ defines ‘surviving’ as being reborn?

Would you also care to justify how you believe Rand will truly die at the Last Battle in light of the fortelling “"The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle.”

Would you also please provide this prophecy/fortelling/etc of yours that states that Rand will die at the last battle - or admit that it doesn’t exist.

Rand asking the snakes-n-foxes how he will survive the last battle, and the above quote are quite obviously related.

Cholly, I agree with Callandor that some of the quotes you used don’t really relate to your theory, and also that you have interpreted them rather broadly – in a way that can’t be substantiated.

That said, you have provided numerous quotes that are very relevant to your theory, and to me, make it certain that Rand survives the last battle. As for how Callandor debates issues – just be careful, he likes to sidetrack the real issues (ie your quotes that directly point to Rand surviving the last battle) – the major ones of which you will notice he has carefully avoided answering in any way shape or form. From that point of view, I also wouldn’t bother debating issues with him that really just a sidetrack to try and divert you away from your major supporting quotes. And don’t put up with his rudeness either (unfortunately he likes to resort to name calling to support his arguments – I find doing so rather petty and juvenile in nature, and I would advise that you just not bother answering him when he resorts to such)

By the way, thanks for pulling all those quotes together.

37

JakOShadows: 2006-11-10

Cholly:

I agree with Callandor on one thing. If it requires large amounts of your opinion to make it a theory, I don't think it is a good theory. But that being said, I do think that there are some points in your favor.

Callandor:

Take a chill pill okay. The fact is that RJ did a good job writing the book. There is enough evidence to say that Rand will live or that Rand will die. So quit calling everyone who disagrees with you ignorant.

Now that being said, that foretelling by Nicola is strong evidence that Rand lives. That really makes me believe that it is more likely he will live, but the fact is that there is a mountain of evidence that points to the fact that he has to "die". And even though you can say that it is all just figurative, the shear number of times it is vaguely hinted at weakens your argument. So while you have swayed me, I am not completely sold yet.

38

Dragon: 2006-11-10

Callandor, you said:

**Unless it's a very simple meaning: Rand dies, and his soul lives on to be reborn again and again.**

*sigh* That is not "surviving" in the obvious sense it was meant here. Rand thinks that he personally has a chance to survive the LB, that means: "Oh, I defeated the DO, but I'm not dead, I'm still here in the Westlands, Rand al'Thor, oh hello Avi, Min & Elayne, I made it, nice, eh?", etc.

Like Mat's prophecy, also in this case to live doesn't mean to be reborn eventually and that's not like Rand took it, of course. To be reborn is a given in the WoT world. If you were right, the Aelfinn had simply said something along the lines, "no, you have to die to win."

Surviving means to live your current life a little longer.

I hope the context of Rand's Q&A is clarified now.

Of course that doesn't explain how Rand will achieve it, and doesn't automatically mean that he will survive TG at all.

But the "if he survives" becomes pretty clear, after learning how RJ introduces such riddles in the plot one or more books before they are solved by the heroes.

Probably you were very surprised that Perrin suddenly solved his "Blacksmith's Puzzle" from CoT in KoD, or that Rand figured out how to Cleanse saidin in WH after he got the first clues in TSR.

But if I read know for example Rand's thoughts in KoD, where it is stated that he considers, how to solve the Aelfinn's riddle and survive TG and even already consults Alivia (who shall help him to "die" ) on this matter, it's pretty obvious to me that Rand will figure it out in the end. He certainly won't simply die, thinking: "Whatever, I will be reborn eventually."

Regarding the "how to survive", I agree with the others that it makes the most sense that it means that Rand has to fake his death to survive TG, if you incorperate all different prophecies, Dreams, and so on. But that remains to be seen.

39

Callandor: 2006-11-10

**Is this your position then Callandor – that Rand dies at the last battle and that Rand ‘surviving’ the last battle means that to Rand’s soul being born again?

Would you care to justify how you believe RJ defines ‘surviving’ as being reborn?

Would you also care to justify how you believe Rand will truly die at the Last Battle in light of the fortelling “"The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle.”**

1. The soul survives. And notice that isn't exactly what Rand was told. He was told that if he would live, he must die.

2. In the above, there is absolutely no problem with the foretelling you mentioned -- in fact it gives the exact same weight. Rand is dead -- yet his soul lives on to be reborn again and again.

**As for how Callandor debates issues – just be careful, he likes to sidetrack the real issues (ie your quotes that directly point to Rand surviving the last battle) – the major ones of which you will notice he has carefully avoided answering in any way shape or form.**

Excuse me? Where is any of this?

40

Kubla Khan: 2006-11-11

everyone seems to be quoting the "twice to live, twice to die" thing, so I thiught I'd just add in my two cents.

For starters, that prophecy is relating to THE DRAGON REBORN, not RAND AL'THOR. Notice the distinction. Now, to my knowledge, the Dragon has lived before - the age of legends. He has also died before. Then he was reborn - live again. If this quote is interpreted this way (and yes - INTERPRETED, ie subjective, opinion based, and my own personal beleif) then Rand dying would fulfill all his living-dying clauses.

I know I said earlier that I want to beleive that he will survive, but I like to provide evidence for both sides of an arguement (and thats one good arguement going on there) - after all, we are all just fans of the series theorising on the outcome - regardless of it being the one we want or not.

41

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-11-12

Callandor...You’ve been agreeing that Rand is going to fake his death…but you have been ignoring (until your last post, where you were directly asked) ‘the’ major quote about that fake death - the foretelling, which shows the fake death happening after the Last Battle.

…and you are now claiming that the foretelling, which is integrally linked to ‘Rand fakes his death’ is not related to his fake death at all, but to his real death (which can’t be justified, as it is just one of four quotes directly related to his ‘fake’ death)

…does your stance also mean you now going back on what you said previously, and are now claiming that Rands fake/real death will be a very public one?

You have also, until your last post, ignored the major fact that Rand asked the snakes-n-foxes ‘how do I survive the LB’, and that is what their answer ‘to live you must die’ is all about (you have only been using ‘the answer’ in your arguments, which puts ‘the answer’ out of context)

The way you are suggesting (which is getting very confused) – Rand would actually survive the Last Battle (which is not what you are claiming), and then he would get Alivia to kill him after he wins and survives the Last Battle (she must help him die, because Min says so), which is just plain silly – ‘I won, I’ve survived, now kill me!’

…or are you now saying you somehow know that Min’s use of the word ‘die’ is not literal, while you also somehow know that the snakes-n-foxes use of the word ‘die’ is literal ?

Btw, the answer cannot be your interpretation. The snakes-n-foxes give true answers. The word ‘I’ refers to oneself – in other words, Rand asked ‘how does Rand Al’thor survive the last battle’. The snakes-n-foxes cannot say ‘Rand Al’thor dies but his soul lives on’ (which is what you are saying), for it is not a true answer to Rand’s question.

A persons (with the same soul) from one rebirth to another is NOT the same person (same soul, but : different name, different parents, different upbringing, different memories, different knowledge, different friends, different home, different belongings etc etc etc…ie different person/personality – just similar soul character traits) – So if Rand dies, then Rand does not survive

42

hashpond420: 2006-11-12

heres an interesting point i think everyone is missing. there are two entities occuping Rands body, Rand himself and LTT (3 if you count the moridin connection.) LTT thinking himself the one with a madman in his head.

LTT was the Dragon and Rand the Dragon Reborn, both are proper names used seperatly and, though im not absolutly certain, one is never used to describe the other ( other than the profecies which in my opinion are unlikely to grasp the situation of two minds in one body or diferentiate the two).

is it not possible then that LTT himself is the one to die leaving rand free of his "insanity". (my use of the word insanity meaning LTT no longer taunting and trying to take control).

On the same note is it not possible that egwene's prophetic dreaming (i.e. the mask thing) is similar if not the same as the aelfinn's abilitie to see past, present and future as one, being that they are both based in T'A'R.

For example when mat payed them a visit they saw the "thread" of his existence as a whole, meaning not just mat but also everyone he had been before he was born mat.

sorry i digress but the point i make is egwene's mask dream could be a representation of rand being shed of all his past dragon lives and living as just rand - no longer having LTT in his head.

Just a third POV, Tear it apart as you see fit.

S.W.E.D.

43

Callandor: 2006-11-14

**That is not "surviving" in the obvious sense it was meant here. Rand thinks that he personally has a chance to survive the LB, that means: "Oh, I defeated the DO, but I'm not dead, I'm still here in the Westlands, Rand al'Thor, oh hello Avi, Min & Elayne, I made it, nice, eh?", etc.

Like Mat's prophecy, also in this case to live doesn't mean to be reborn eventually and that's not like Rand took it, of course. To be reborn is a given in the WoT world. If you were right, the Aelfinn had simply said something along the lines, "no, you have to die to win."**

Exactly. Rand can think that's what it means -- but it is again an answer from the Aelfinn, answers that are deliberately confusing. I agree, it would be far more simple to tell Rand: You need to die so that your soul will be safe. But the Aelfinn and Eelfinn are finicky bastards -- as we have seen, and as we have been distinctly told.

**Callandor...You’ve been agreeing that Rand is going to fake his death…but you have been ignoring (until your last post, where you were directly asked) ‘the’ major quote about that fake death - the foretelling, which shows the fake death happening after the Last Battle.**

You need to read the Foretelling more carefully then:

**TITLE: Lord of Chaos

CHAPTER: 14 - Dreams and Nightmares

Suddenly Nicola spoke, sounding half-asleep. "The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."**

Notice how that part is before the reference to the Last Battle?

**…does your stance also mean you now going back on what you said previously, and are now claiming that Rands fake/real death will be a very public one?**

No.

**The way you are suggesting (which is getting very confused) – Rand would actually survive the Last Battle (which is not what you are claiming), and then he would get Alivia to kill him after he wins and survives the Last Battle (she must help him die, because Min says so), which is just plain silly – ‘I won, I’ve survived, now kill me!’**

Where are you getting this? At no time have I mentioned Alivia being the one to actually kill Rand. I have mentioned her in faking Rand's death.

**Btw, the answer cannot be your interpretation. The snakes-n-foxes give true answers. The word ‘I’ refers to oneself – in other words, Rand asked ‘how does Rand Al’thor survive the last battle’. The snakes-n-foxes cannot say ‘Rand Al’thor dies but his soul lives on’ (which is what you are saying), for it is not a true answer to Rand’s question.**

Again, you're trying to get at this as if the Aelfinn and Eelfinn are the most honest and straightforward of all people in the universe. They're not. They're deliberately vague, confusing, misleading, and tricksome.

44

Dragon: 2006-11-15

Callandor,

**Exactly. Rand can think that's what it means -- but it is again an answer from the Aelfinn, answers that are deliberately confusing. I agree, it would be far more simple to tell Rand: You need to die so that your soul will be safe. But the Aelfinn and Eelfinn are finicky bastards -- as we have seen, and as we have been distinctly told.**

But it's also said that the Aelfinn's answers are always true.

When Rand asks them, how to survive the LB, they practically tell him, you have to die to achieve that.

It would be a lie, if it only meant, Rand has to die to die (and be reborn eventually). In this case there wouldn't be any chance for Rand -the concrete person in front of the Aelfinn- to survive the LB. He could only die, not die and live then.

It's the same in Mat's case. His prophecied dying and living again, meant that "this" Mat will live a little longer after his death, not that Mat would die and just be reborn eventually.

Sure, Rand could really die and then come back to life, like Mat did. Some people think that again balefire will be involved.

I doubt that, though, because that already happenend in Mat's story and would be very dull.

But more important, there are lots of prophecies which indicate that Rand will fake his death, like you admit yourself.

If that really happens, it seems very likely that this is actually the solution to the Aelfinn's riddle: "to live, you must die" means, you have to fake your death, pretend to be death in the eyes of the world, and that way you will survive the LB.

So, the Aelfinn's answer is actually tricky, because Rand doesn't actually has to die. But it isn't wrong, because there is this chance that Rand might survive the LB.

Besides as I said, it's not only that Rand thinks that the Aelfinn said this, he is actively taking measures to solve this riddle now.

RJ certainly doesn't do this without any plot purpose. I repeat myself, but it's the same like Rand figuring out how to cleanse saidin, Perrin solving the Blacksmith's puzzle, Elayne's search for the killer of Adeleas and Ispan, Mat trying to solve Aludra's riddle or searching the Daughter of the Nine Moons. In all these incidents -and there are certainly many others- the heroes tried to solve a certain problem. In the end, they were of course successful. Accordingly, Rand will most likely figure out -in my opinion with Alivia's help- what the Aelfinn meant, fake his death and thus survive TG.

45

JakOShadows: 2006-11-15

Hey guys,

I've noticed that everyone is trying to interpret foretellings and prophecies in order to prove this theory. It has always been my experience that prophecies are vague and don't specifically spell everything out for everyone to know. Only a select few can figure out what they mean, if they have the knowledge. So ya'll can argue all day about prophecies and what the finns said, but I don't think it will prove your theory in this instance. Because we don't have enough information outside of prophecies to prove it.

That being said, I agree with Callandor that the finns are not the most straightforward people, and they did in fact try and kill Mat. So I don't think we can take what they say as straightforward or look for the obvious interpretation there.

But that foretelling by Nicola does cast doubt on whether he'll die or not. Yes, it is mentioned before the last battle, but it could mean that he faked his death after the LB too. And that second phrase is just saying that after the LB, there will be a second breaking. In my opinion, the two statements are completely unrelated; in fact, all of the sentence are unrelated in some degree. They're all supposed to be hints at different things along the timeline of events. So the sentences could be in any order and still convey the same message.

46

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-11-15

Book quote***Suddenly Nicola spoke, sounding half-asleep. "The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."**

*1. Callandor said ***Notice how that part is before the reference to the Last Battle?***

Callandor it is a single, short, foretelling. The timeframe is put to it – there is not an iota in that quote that puts it before the Last Battle – the quote distinctly marks the event as occurring after the last battle.

*2. Callandor’s previous post *** In the above, there is absolutely no problem with the foretelling you mentioned -- in fact it gives the exact same weight. Rand is dead -- yet his soul lives on to be reborn again and again.***

In *1 you say the ‘death’ occurs before the Last Battle. In *2 you say it’s a real death…the literal interpretation of those two claims being that Rand dies a true death before the Last Battle. You are in this, wrong.

***Again, you're trying to get at this as if the Aelfinn and Eelfinn are the most honest and straightforward of all people in the universe. They're not. They're deliberately vague, confusing, misleading, and tricksome***

Yes they are all that - and their answers are also always a true answer to the question. So, however tricksome they are - any interpretation MUST meet that criteria of being a True answer. That is why your interpretation of their answer to ‘how do I survive the Last Battle’ doesn’t hold water.

47

Chang: 2006-11-16

Ok...so while this theory discussion has degenerated to a cerain extent into plain old vindictiveness, there is still some life in the old boy yet. I think that by now, though, most people would have just come to the plain old, simple conclusion that depending on how the quotes are read, they can point to diferent things. No one castigated me on my obviously one-sided interpretation of the"twice to live, twice to die" quote, and the way in which it assumed a certain structure to the quote. I was sort of hoping someone would. None the less, an analysis of the structure does support certain interpretations more than others, and since "twice and twice shall he be marked" comes before "twice to live and twice to die" this does suggest that he will be marked twice rather than taking that section separately from the first sntence which would mean that he lives twice and dies twice.

Structure aside, since that debate can rage on for some time (hopefully it will), one point that has captured my interest is the idea that Rand is separate from the Dragon adn that the Dragon might die, but that does not mean Rand will.

It should be fairly clear by now that Rand has assumed the identity of the Dragon Reborn. He thinks of himself as the Dragon Reborn. Just as Lews Therin before him considered himself to be The Dragon. Being the Dragon is now a part of Rand's personality, just as much as Lews Therin is a part of Rand's personality. For those who disagree consider, that personality, very simply put, is defined by the actions of a person and how a person reacts, mentally and physically, to certain situations based, neccessarily, upon the memories they have formed over the course of their lives. How a person feels about a situation will be based upon their previous experiences, their perceptions of those experiences and what they have learnt that brings those feelings out. Also how they perceive themselves to react to situations, and how they perceive their personality to be based upon these actions, using the words they have learnt in order to define this (the inherently limited nature of language means that personality will be defined). Memory is a large part of personality as it brings those definitions to bear in situations and causes people to act and react in particular ways and perceive certain situations, upon which their actions will then be based. Learning, which regardless of whther you ascribe to a 'blank slate', or not determines character to a large degree, and without memory, personality deteriorates.

This said, how can Rand ever forget having been the Dragon Reborn? How can he ever forget the experience of having Lews Therin's voice in his head, and Lews Therins memories? Those memories, even remembered reflexive habits (thumbing his earlobe e.g.) are as much a part of Rand's personality now as his stubborness (which was part of Lews Therin's personality too though I can't remember where Lanfear said it).

If you accept that memory shapes personality, experience shapes personality, then it seems pointless to say that Rand can ever 'sheepherder' Rand again. He will always be the Dragon Reborn in his head, even if he wins the Last battle, maybe especially if he wins the last battle. I know that my definition of 'personality' and the role of memory in personality is haphazard and partly uninteligible, but time constrains me as I am sitting at work. If people don't agree with the concept, or parts of it, as i'm sure many will, then please feel free to point them out and I will reply.

48

hashpond420: 2006-11-16

Chang,

I think your last post was in response to mine (since nobody else has seemed to even consider this).

In responce to your post i would like to say this.

I wasnt trying to say Rand would forget the memories and stuff givin him by LTT, only that he would be rid of LTT in his head.

It would be almost impossible to forget that experience, but at the same time it could be said that he would force himself to get over the habits he picked up from LTT just out of stubberness and dislike for the man.

Now I agree with your explenation of personnality distinguishing a life but if this is to say that LTT and Rand are in fact the same person then i have to disagree.

Though Rand and LTT have similar traights they are still quite different from each other.

A good example of this is LTT is a murderous person who is constantly trying to force Rand to kill male channelers, whereas Rand hates having to kill anyone(especially women).

Also LTT is insane and Rand not so much.

Also and more importantly, they talk to each other constantly.

This final point is to me absolute proof they are seperate people.

As a final note i will give my personal theory of how this will end.

Alivia helps Rand to seperate LTT and then to deposit LTT's soul into Moridin's body via the balefire connection from way back in Shadar Logoth ( remember that rand has had sickness when touching the source and has seen a face in his head that can "see" Rand ever since Moridin and Rand shot balefire at each other, the reason for this, i think, is because Moridin was useing the True Source and has caused Rand to be somewhat connected to the True Source himself, plus back in falme when he fought Moridins earlier encarnation Rand stole the True Source from Ishamael and defeated him)

Once the soul is deposited its fair game to bleed LTT like a pig and fulfill all the proficies and defeat the D.O.

Also I think Fain is just as important as Rand in the defeat of the D.O.

S.W.E.D.

49

SaAngreal: 2006-11-17

**Suddenly Nicola spoke, sounding half-asleep. "The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade.**

My take on this fortelling has always been that the Great Battle is the last battle and the world not being done with battle probably refers to conflict that is likly to arise between the Seanchan and people of Randland. I also beleive that the war over the return will renew after the LB and probably has something to do with the prophesized second breaking.

Anyways, what I'm saying is that I think this theory is plausible because of the way I interpret the above qute.

By the way this is my first post, feel free to rip it apart.

50

JakOShadows: 2006-11-18

Chang:

I agree personality is based off memories. And that would mean that if the LTT personality and memories disappeared, the dragon could have theoretically died. But I still think that Rand is the dragon and the dragon was LTT and now currently reborn as Rand. They are one and same, and I don't think that those definitions are seperable, as you pointed out as a posssibility.

As for your last post about the prophecy, I probably just forgot to mention it. I think it is possible for it to be interpreted like that, but with prophecy it is always hard to tell how it is supposed to be interpreted.

Saangreal:

I agree that the quote can be interpreted as that, and that does make the theory plausible. But now we are arguing about provability. Since there is nothing else to back up that interpretation of that quote, it makes it hard for me to believe. I'm glad you at least mentioned it though, because when these discussions get heated like this it helps to keep things in context a bit.

51

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-11-19

"(1) The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. (2) Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. (3)The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. (4) The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. (5) The future teeters on the edge of a blade."

***I agree that the quote can be interpreted as that, and that does make the theory plausible. But now we are arguing about provability. Since there is nothing else to back up that interpretation of that quote, it makes it hard for me to believe. I'm glad you at least mentioned it though, because when these discussions get heated like this it helps to keep things in context a bit.***

JakO – The only Problems that occur with the interpretation of that quote…they only arise when a person tries to interpret that quote in any other way than ‘Rand survives the last battle’. You only have to look at the tangle Callandor got himself into – first saying the fortelling related to Rand’s literal death, then in his next post saying that death occurs before the last battle.

…………………………………………………….....

***Since there is nothing else to back up that interpretation of that quote*** - see below

………………………………………………………..

Here is your attempt at a different interpretation.

***But that foretelling by Nicola does cast doubt on whether he'll die or not. Yes, it is mentioned before the last battle, but it could mean that he faked his death after the LB too. And that second phrase is just saying that after the LB, there will be a second breaking. In my opinion, the two statements are completely unrelated; in fact, all of the sentence are unrelated in some degree. They're all supposed to be hints at different things along the timeline of events. So the sentences could be in any order and still convey the same message.***

…………………………………………………….

The first part is of your paragraph is context, the second part the follow conclusion. Notice how the foretelling follows a similar pattern?

……………………………………………………

You don’t argue the foretelling in the context of Rand’s question “How do I survive the last Battle’ and the answer ‘to live you must die’…which is remarkably similar in wording to the foretelling. However tricksome- the snakes-n-foxes gave a true answer, which means Rand ‘can’ survive (if he figures out how to live by dying). The only two ways to ‘live by dying’ are the literal (die and be brought back by balefire), and the non-literal (fake your death). As I doubt anyone will argue that RJ will use balefire – this puts Rand’s fake death at The Last Battle. Which means the S-n-F’s ‘Answer’ and ‘the foretelling’ are linked.

Also - consider the clarity of the dreams/foretellings point to Rand faking his death – I doubt anyone will say ‘Rand fakes his death before the last battle, then does so again at the last battle’. This once again points to the ‘Answer’ and the ‘foretelling’ being linked.

Rand is halfway to figuring how to ‘live by dying’ out through Min’s vision of Alivia “She’s going to help you die” (not ‘she’s going to kill you’)…in KoD Rand show’s how much he trusts Alivia, even with Min’s reading. Further weight to the ‘answer’ and the ‘foretelling’ being linked.

………………………………..

As for your actual interpretation & statements about the foretelling :

Your last sentence ***So the sentences could be in any order and still convey the same message.*** This is quite obviously wrong, when applied to the first (1) and last (5) sentences of the foretelling – as those sentences have no meaning on their own. The first (being context) relies on subsequent sentences to clarify it’s meaning, and the last (being a conclusion) relies on previous sentences to clarify its ‘context’.

And your previous sentence to the above ***They're all supposed to be hints at different things along the timeline of events.*** The foretelling is given in the single, short moment, and is said as one foretelling. The foretelling is not a subject initiated prophecy (like a person asking a prophet ‘what is my fate’) which can obviously involve multiple events occurring at differing times. So, apart from subject initiates prophecies on their own fate (which the foretelling is not)…can you provide a quote in the books (that is said in the one moment, and in one paragraph) that does as you suggest? If not, lets make it easier - try and find a similar prophecy that does as you suggest from any book (seeing as RJ seems to follow fairly traditional prophecy guidelines).

The whole Point of the foretelling is contained in the last sentence (it’s conclusion) “The future teeters on the edge of a blade”. The whole of the preceding paragraph is ‘context’, explaining why “The future teeters on the edge of a blade”….that is, unless you are arguing that the foretelling works like this : ‘the future teeters on the edge of blade – let’s tell why, but throw in a different unrelated event in the body of the explanation, just for the sake of it’ (then you would have to explain how Rand’s fake death won’t contribute to ‘the future teetering on the edge of a blade’)

And your statement ***Since there is nothing else to back up that interpretation of that quote*** - there are enough prophetic links to pinpoint the timeframe of Rand’s fake death as being at the last battle (as per above)

……….

By the way, you previously said this :

***I've noticed that everyone is trying to interpret foretellings and prophecies in order to prove this theory. It has always been my experience that prophecies are vague and don't specifically spell everything out for everyone to know. Only a select few can figure out what they mean, if they have the knowledge. So ya'll can argue all day about prophecies and what the finns said, but I don't think it will prove your theory in this instance. Because we don't have enough information outside of prophecies to prove it.***

Given how you believe prophecies are vague and don’t spell everything out – and given that the prophecies categorically do not state anywhere that Rand dies at the last battle - how then do you come to the belief that he will die at the last battle?

Everyone seems to agree that the foretelling is a plausible foretelling of Rand surviving the last Battle….the only problems arise when a person tries to interpret that foretelling any other way (as per above, and as per Callandor’s previous arguments that lead to him ‘saying’ that Rand literally dies before the last battle...which were the only two arguments really adressing that specific quote)

52

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-11-19

(hits himself on the head and mutters about Min's 'aura's) hmmm...aura's...phrophies...what will be...are they subject initiated? Could be argued...ewww...what a messy subject.

53

Dragons Shadow: 2006-11-20

Just a quick note.

Callandor, you are saying that the statements in the Prophecies cannot be looked at seperately, but have to be taken as a whole.

Twice and twice shall he be marked,

twice to live, and twice to die,

Once the heron to set his path.

Twice the heron, to name him true.

Once the Dragon for remembrance lost.

Twice the Dragon for the price he must pay."

Thus, this only refers to the markings, and not to two deaths.

But, you then insist on Nicola's Fortelling being taken as seperate statements, not as a whole.

**TITLE: Lord of Chaos

CHAPTER: 14 - Dreams and Nightmares

Suddenly Nicola spoke, sounding half-asleep. "The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."**

Notice how that part is before the reference to the Last Battle?***

When taken as a whole this Foretelling obviously places the time as AFTER the Last Battle.

You can't have it both ways. You yourself have said that one should be consistant in ones interpretations of prophesy.

That being said, I completely agree that the Prophesy refers only to the markings, which does make it irrelevant to proving or disproving this theory. However the Fortelling, speaking of a time after the last battle, specifically says "one who is dead, yet LIVES" in the present tense.

54

Callandor: 2006-11-21

**But it's also said that the Aelfinn's answers are always true.**

Yeah, and? The answer is still true, because Rand's soul lives on to be reborn again and again.

**It's the same in Mat's case. His prophecied dying and living again, meant that "this" Mat will live a little longer after his death, not that Mat would die and just be reborn eventually.**

Mat's part had a bit more to it that you left off: "To die and live again, and live once more a part of what was!"

**But more important, there are lots of prophecies which indicate that Rand will fake his death, like you admit yourself.

If that really happens, it seems very likely that this is actually the solution to the Aelfinn's riddle: "to live, you must die" means, you have to fake your death, pretend to be death in the eyes of the world, and that way you will survive the LB.

So, the Aelfinn's answer is actually tricky, because Rand doesn't actually has to die. But it isn't wrong, because there is this chance that Rand might survive the LB.**

1. That's hardly tricky.

2. Yes, there are hints Rand will fake his death -- again, none of them being after the Last Battle.

**Besides as I said, it's not only that Rand thinks that the Aelfinn said this, he is actively taking measures to solve this riddle now.**

Again, yes and? Rand can -- gasp! -- be wrong. He has been several times before. He can take active steps to try to solve the riddle in the knowledge that he has to actually die as well.

**In all these incidents -and there are certainly many others- the heroes tried to solve a certain problem. In the end, they were of course successful. Accordingly, Rand will most likely figure out -in my opinion with Alivia's help- what the Aelfinn meant, fake his death and thus survive TG.**

Again, your point is meaningless. Rand can be successful in figuring out the riddle the same in both theories -- the difference is in what the answer is. You're saying this as if Rand simply cannot figure out he has to die or some other similiarly irrelevant point.

**Yes, it is mentioned before the last battle, but it could mean that he faked his death after the LB too.**

So, he's faking his death twice....

You're admitting it takes place before the Last Battle, but then just supposing another event that's not mentioned in the prophecy? Ok, but that's easy to shoot down: it's simply not mentioned there, and not supported.

**Callandor it is a single, short, foretelling. The timeframe is put to it – there is not an iota in that quote that puts it before the Last Battle – the quote distinctly marks the event as occurring after the last battle.**

It's this simple: Nicola mentions the "fake death" before the marker of the Last Battle ("the great battle done"). IE: it occurs before the Last Battle. Shocking how difficult that is to put together.

**In *1 you say the ‘death’ occurs before the Last Battle. In *2 you say it’s a real death…the literal interpretation of those two claims being that Rand dies a true death before the Last Battle. You are in this, wrong.**

Rand fakes his death before the Last Battle -- that's the "funeral" as I've maintained before. He then dies at the Last Battle. Where's the problem? The entire point of the fake funeral was to point out that it wasn't such a "for sure" thing that it occured after the Last Battle (as you and Cholly just ran with). It can be Rand faking his death before the Last Battle (again, because that section is before the mention of the Last Battle) for whatever reason he feels, and he then dies at the Last Battle.

**Yes they are all that - and their answers are also always a true answer to the question. So, however tricksome they are - any interpretation MUST meet that criteria of being a True answer. That is why your interpretation of their answer to ‘how do I survive the Last Battle’ doesn’t hold water.**

Yes, they're always right and true. This is not a problem for either case. How is it that the answer given does not answer Rand's question? He has to die for his soul to live on. He survives that way.

**Callandor, you are saying that the statements in the Prophecies cannot be looked at seperately, but have to be taken as a whole.

...

But, you then insist on Nicola's Fortelling being taken as seperate statements, not as a whole.**

I am not. You can look at the individual statements -- you have to in reading them to see the parts of the structure -- but you cannot just take them, and look at them out of context, as if that was all that was to them. You can look at "Twice to live, and twice to die" by itself -- you just have to remember the context of the prophecy (the structure) which was not being done. It's like trying to look at California as a state by itself, without paying any attention to the fact that it's a part of the United States. You have to keep that in mind, even if you look at it individually.

**When taken as a whole this Foretelling obviously places the time as AFTER the Last Battle.**

No, it does not. It establishes a shift. The fact that the part in question occurs before the reference of the Last Battle makes that quite clear. Otherwise why not simply have the reference to the Last Battle first entirely?

**However the Fortelling, speaking of a time after the last battle, specifically says "one who is dead, yet LIVES" in the present tense.**

Yes, it does -- again, Rand dies, and his soul lives on to be reborn again and again.

55

JakOShadows: 2006-11-21

***JakO – The only Problems that occur with the interpretation of that quote…they only arise when a person tries to interpret that quote in any other way than ‘Rand survives the last battle’. You only have to look at the tangle Callandor got himself into – first saying the fortelling related to Rand’s literal death, then in his next post saying that death occurs before the last battle.***

I am not saying that Rand does or does not survive the last battle. I am trying to say from that quote we can’t tell whether he will survive or not. I have never made a statement saying that Rand will die.

***The first part is of your paragraph is context, the second part the follow conclusion. Notice how the foretelling follows a similar pattern?***

Yes, but in the case of the foretelling, the sentences relating to context could be in any order and still result in the same conclusion.

***You don’t argue the foretelling in the context of Rand’s question “How do I survive the last Battle’ and the answer ‘to live you must die’…which is remarkably similar in wording to the foretelling. However tricksome- the snakes-n-foxes gave a true answer, which means Rand ‘can’ survive (if he figures out how to live by dying). The only two ways to ‘live by dying’ are the literal (die and be brought back by balefire), and the non-literal (fake your death). As I doubt anyone will argue that RJ will use balefire – this puts Rand’s fake death at The Last Battle. Which means the S-n-F’s ‘Answer’ and ‘the foretelling’ are linked.

Also - consider the clarity of the dreams/foretellings point to Rand faking his death – I doubt anyone will say ‘Rand fakes his death before the last battle, then does so again at the last battle’. This once again points to the ‘Answer’ and the ‘foretelling’ being linked.

Rand is halfway to figuring how to ‘live by dying’ out through Min’s vision of Alivia “She’s going to help you die” (not ‘she’s going to kill you’)…in KoD Rand show’s how much he trusts Alivia, even with Min’s reading. Further weight to the ‘answer’ and the ‘foretelling’ being linked. ***

Allright, I do kind of see they are linked somehow. At first when I wrote the post, I was trying to look at the individual piece of evidence. But yes, the finns answer probably has some connection. But even that bit of prophecy is so vague that it won’t tell us much more. I believe the quote is that “to live, you must die.” How does the show that he will live? So they are connected, but that connections still isn’t much. And by throwing in this quote, I am not saying he dies. I am saying that we still do not know even with this connection.

***This is quite obviously wrong, when applied to the first (1) and last (5) sentences of the foretelling – as those sentences have no meaning on their own. The first (being context) relies on subsequent sentences to clarify it’s meaning, and the last (being a conclusion) relies on previous sentences to clarify its ‘context’.***

Allright, you got a point there. But like I said before, the context sentences can be in any order and still result in the same conclusion. Especially the first two sentences, which is basically the part of the prophecy that is pertinent to the argument.

***The foretelling is given in the single, short moment, and is said as one foretelling. The foretelling is not a subject initiated prophecy (like a person asking a prophet ‘what is my fate’) which can obviously involve multiple events occurring at differing times. So, apart from subject initiates prophecies on their own fate (which the foretelling is not)…can you provide a quote in the books (that is said in the one moment, and in one paragraph) that does as you suggest? If not, lets make it easier - try and find a similar prophecy that does as you suggest from any book (seeing as RJ seems to follow fairly traditional prophecy guidelines).***

I will do some looking. I don’t have my books with me, or anything like that right now, but I will be home over thanksgiving. I think Elaida would be a good example of the ambiguity of foretellings like that though, but just give me sometime to look up and find an example.

***there are enough prophetic links to pinpoint the timeframe of Rand’s fake death as being at the last battle (as per above)***

They all hint at being close to the LB, but the ambiguity of prophecy in general makes it difficult to say for sure. But yes, right now, I believe the evidence more likely suggests that he does fake his death at the last battle. I just don’t exactly trust the evidence, if you know what I mean.

***Given how you believe prophecies are vague and don’t spell everything out – and given that the prophecies categorically do not state anywhere that Rand dies at the last battle - how then do you come to the belief that he will die at the last battle?

Everyone seems to agree that the foretelling is a plausible foretelling of Rand surviving the last Battle….the only problems arise when a person tries to interpret that foretelling any other way (as per above, and as per Callandor’s previous arguments that lead to him ‘saying’ that Rand literally dies before the last battle...which were the only two arguments really adressing that specific quote)***

As I have said above, I do not think it is clear whether he lives or dies. But I’m getting tired of people saying that Rand will definitely live or Rand will definitely die, because I don’t think the evidence for your cases are strong enough on either side. I’m basically playing devil’s advocate right now. That’s all.

***(hits himself on the head and mutters about Min's 'aura's) hmmm...aura's...phrophies...what will be...are they subject initiated? Could be argued...ewww...what a messy subject.***

As for Min’s prophecy’s, I believe they aren’t subject initiated for the most part. Because how many times have we seen Rand ask Min, “what do you see around me right now?” Notice how he can’t ask will this happen; so if Rand were the subject, it can’t be called a subject based prophecy. But it is not related in anyway to the foretelling (a bit more control I believe), because Min can pick and choose what is important to him at the time too. So it depends on how you look at it I guess.

56

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-11-26

Hi Callandor :

Callandors reply in relation to the SnF’s answer to Rands question ***Yes, they're always right and true. This is not a problem for either case. How is it that the answer given does not answer Rand's question? He has to die for his soul to live on. He survives that way.***

Any person in Randland is made up of ‘soul + body’

Rand (the person) is made up of ‘soul+body’

As I previously said – Rand asked ‘how do ‘I’ survive’. Rands use of the word ‘I’ refers to ‘himself/Rand (the person)’, or in other words the question is ‘how do I, Rand Al’Thor (the person), survive The Last Battle? The s-n-f’s ‘to live you must die’ has to be taken in the context of the question (as their answers are always true)….if Rand dies, he (the person) does not survive - the fact that Rand’s soul lives on after Rand dies is irrelevant in this context, because the question was asked about ‘Rand the person’, not ‘Rand/LTT/Jesus (etc) the soul’ – and Rand (the Person) is made up of ‘the soul + the body” – Rand dying at the Last Battle means Rand (the person) did not survive – his body is dead, and so Rand the Person is dead (and the question was specifically ‘how do ‘I’ survive’).

However you argue, there is no getting around this point.

Perhaps we can also attack it from another angle. The s-n-f answer ‘to live’ has to be taken in the context of ‘to survive’, and a living/surviving Rand is possible, according to their answer. If the soul that is Rand was born again within a year of his death…that new born would not be the Living/Surviving Rand Al’Thor.

And yet another angle : According to the context of the s-n-f answer, if Rand solves the Riddle, then he has to both Survive & be Alive after the last battle (according to the question re ‘how do I Survive’ and the answer ‘To ‘Live’ you must die’. Rand can’t very well be Alive if he’s Dead.

………………..

**However the Fortelling, speaking of a time after the last battle, specifically says "one who is dead, yet LIVES" in the present tense.**

Callandor said***Yes, it does -- again, Rand dies, and his soul lives on to be reborn again and again.***

That foretelling relates specifically to the fake death. You are continuing to argue that the foretelling fake funeral occurs before the last battle, and in the same breath saying that Rand dies for real at the said foretelling ‘fake’ death, which you also continue to argue occurs before the last battle. Your interpretation is confused and wrong.

-----------------------------------------

Hi JakO

***They all hint at being close to the LB, but the ambiguity of prophecy in general makes it difficult to say for sure. But yes, right now, I believe the evidence more likely suggests that he does fake his death at the last battle. I just don’t exactly trust the evidence, if you know what I mean.***

Sure do.

***As I have said above, I do not think it is clear whether he lives or dies. But I’m getting tired of people saying that Rand will definitely live or Rand will definitely die, because I don’t think the evidence for your cases are strong enough on either side. I’m basically playing devil’s advocate right now. That’s all.***

Hey no problem with this. The problem with arguing for one side (of any argument) where people are objecting : it becomes messy to also say ‘this isn’t definitive I know’, ‘it doesn’t say it right out’, ‘there may be another interpretation we can’t see’ etc etc etc.

Also, as I’ve said previously, reading those foretellings, the s-n-f answer, etc as one, is easy to do, and you run into no problem…but you do if you argue against them. That means things are rather strongly in favour of Rand surviving … but no, that make it definite…even though I think he will - based on the available evidence (but maybe there’s something we don’t know?)

Funnily enough…I don’t think we’ll even get to see if Rand survives or dies – I’m guessing RJ will have Rand die a vague death, or a real enough looking one, with just a hint of connections to the foretellings to make it uncertain.

57

Dragons Shadow: 2006-12-04

Callandor, I have one simple request.

Please provide for me an example from ANY OF THE BOOKS, in which a single Foretelling dealt with two different things or two different times. If you can do this, I will concede the point.

However, if memory serves, every example we have of Foretelling throughout the series refers to one thing at a time and not a progression of events. That is the purview of prophesy which as far as we know has not been practiced since the AOL.

58

Dragon: 2006-12-05

Callandor,

**Yeah, and? The answer is still true, because Rand's soul lives on to be reborn again and again.**

One point. Can the Aelfinn really know that Rand's soul will be reborn?

The Aelfinn are able to give true answers, because they can obviously "read" the thread of the questioner in the Pattern.

The thread of the concrete person ends with the death of this person, though. That means common sense tells us that it must be impossible that the Aelfinn could already see that Rand's soul will really be reborn eventually. It only makes sense that they can read the current thread, but can't read a thread which isn't already woven into the Pattern. Thus, saying that Rand's soul will be reborn, would just be an educated guess, not a true answer.

Besides the things I already pointed out, that's another reason why your interpretation is obviously wrong.

59

Callandor: 2006-12-05

**One point. Can the Aelfinn really know that Rand's soul will be reborn?

The Aelfinn are able to give true answers, because they can obviously "read" the thread of the questioner in the Pattern.

The thread of the concrete person ends with the death of this person, though. That means common sense tells us that it must be impossible that the Aelfinn could already see that Rand's soul will really be reborn eventually. It only makes sense that they can read the current thread, but can't read a thread which isn't already woven into the Pattern. Thus, saying that Rand's soul will be reborn, would just be an educated guess, not a true answer.**

If they're telling Rand to die in order to save his soul, they obviously would know that he succeeds in doing so, and therefore his soul is safe to be reborn again and again. It's not destroyed, captured by the Dark One, or anything else of that nature. Like any other normal death, Rand's soul would naturally be reborn, as is needed.

60

Dragon: 2006-12-07

**If they're telling Rand to die in order to save his soul, they obviously would know that he succeeds in doing so, and therefore his soul is safe to be reborn again and again. It's not destroyed, captured by the Dark One, or anything else of that nature. Like any other normal death, Rand's soul would naturally be reborn, as is needed.**

Exactly that would just be an educated guess, because the Aelfinn would just believe that Rand's soul will be reborn.

However, the chance remains that the world could be destroyed (for example by humans or during a natural disaster) in an Age after the 3rd. In this case, no soul would be reborn. But the Aelfinn couldn't know that, because they can obviously just read the thread of the particular questioner. That means they can only give Rand truthful answers regarding his thread till his death. This particular thread ends with Rand's death and the Aelfinn can't see further. That means if they see that by dying, Rand will survive TG, it must mean that his thread is still in the Pattern then. And that is only possible if Rand still physically lives after TG.

61

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-12-09

Hmmm...just had a thought. Is anyone familiar with how Thor dies after battling The World Worm (can't remember it's name, Jormungund?) at Ragnarok?

Just thinking that Rand obviously can't 'die' until he's defeated the DO, which means that he would still have a few seconds to 'live' afterwards...he staggers the 9 steps (maybe Jordan will make it 7) and 'dies'.

62

lordoftwilight: 2007-01-01

Rands blood could also mean the blood of his family like Kin since when someone is of your family you say that you share blood with them so it could be his Uncle's blood that ends u on the rocks where he tried to kill Rand but failed and possibly impailed himself or got stabbed.

It could also be the blood from his Children at Elayne's birth that is on the rocks on Shayoul ghoul

63

Legend: 2007-01-09

One must remember, Rand is not just a reincarnated soul...he is "The Dragon" who has been reborn, in this age as Rand al thor. But whether it be Rand al Thor/Lew's Therin/Jesus whatever...he's still the dragon in each incarnation, spun out as the wheel needs. So when he says how can I survive, i don't see any implausibility w/ ailfinn's seeing no distinction between "the dragon"/Rand/LTT. To them, they are all one in the same.

Having said that, is it so incongruous for Rand to actually die AND live again? Not in another life, but in the aftermath of TG...maybe even 3 day after.

I must say I can't see why the possibility of his survival would have been hinted at throughout the series (as demonstrated in much of the prophecy/viewings/dialogue quoted ad nauseum throughout this thread)unless he were going to survive. It seems to me that RJ is foreshadowing his survial, and is being cryptic as to the "how"`. For instance, why would RJ make a point of clarifying Alivia's role to "help" Rand die...emphasis on the word "help"...making the distinction that what she will do may not neccessarily harm him, but rather suggests it may be of some assistance...and we know Rand's plan is to survive if he can manage it.

Ok back to the question, how does he live AND die? Someone tell me why he can't come back Brigitte style! He is tied to the wheel, if he died, why wouldn't he exist as Brigitte did, which would mean he could also be spun out by an external force (could this be part of what Min learns in Fel's books? With the help of Elayne and Avienda, who abscond w/ the dead body of Rand...maybe they grab up some dream terangreal and go hunting for Rand. Maybe even Perrin helps find him in the wolf dream...he does have to be there 1 more time to "save" Rand.

I also think this may be where the dark prophecy involving Lanfear comes in, as she would know he's tied to the wheel, know's he must die, and awaits her chance then, it may be from her that he or his dragon soul must be rescued.

I'm suprised this possibility has not been considered in this discussion, maybe it has in other post, i also included in another thread recently, but no feedback yet. The only thing I can't really pin down in my mind is "WHO" he is in that world...why was Brigitte "Brigitte" in that world? And it's clear she remebers or remembered past lives w/ different names. I would assume Rand is "the dragon" in his pre-reincarted state, but who is that? does he look like Rand? Just don't know.

This is my interpretation, and I am certain many may feel some, if not all, of my premise to be flawed, but I am interested to hear your theories on why this would not be plausible. Thx

64

Catalyst: 2007-01-13

Someone certainly will contrate this somehow, but let ME try.

The voice in Rand's head is the voice of Lews Therin, no doubt. But it is not just a voice, because along the voice there are these memories from the Age of Legends, and the Deathweaves as well. Lews Therin can seize saidin instead of Rand. Probably he can seize control over Rand's body as well. With a single sentence, there are two souls in one body. Can they dismerge at all?

We will wait, we will read.

Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.

Let the Heavy Metal rule.

65

Davian93: 2007-01-14

****With a single sentence, there are two souls in one body. Can they dismerge at all? ****

I'm sure Callandor already beat me to this, but there is but one soul in Rand's body and that is the Dragon soul. RJ has definitively stated that there is only one Soul while multiple personalities may exist. Rand and LTT are the same soul.

66

Callandor: 2007-01-14

**The voice in Rand's head is the voice of Lews Therin, no doubt. But it is not just a voice, because along the voice there are these memories from the Age of Legends, and the Deathweaves as well. Lews Therin can seize saidin instead of Rand. Probably he can seize control over Rand's body as well. With a single sentence, there are two souls in one body. Can they dismerge at all?**

1. There's a whole long theory about all the doubt that there is of Lews Therin being a real voice in Rand's head. Have a go at it: link

2. Channeling being ascribed to Lews Therin does not mean "Lews Therin" is really channeling. Nor does it come close to meaning Lews Therin can take over Rand's body. Again, read the theory given above.

3. There are not two souls in Rand's body. Jordan has made that crystal clear:

**Q:The question is, with Rand and LTT, do they have 1 soul or 2 souls in the body?

A: They have 1 soul with 2 personalities. The reincarnation of souls does not mean reincarnation of personalities. The personality develops with each reincarnation of the soul. This is the cosmology that I [cobbled] together.**

One soul, two personalities. Any other questions should be more than addressed, again, in the theory above. It's quite thorough.

67

kaylo: 2007-01-14

Ok I'm going to give a vague reason why Rand will not die without listing the actual facts. Some other zealot can research the facts in the series, since I don't have my copies at college with me, and don't feel like putting much effort into this. Ok, at one point in the series, the prophesy states that the dragon with a set # of herons to mark him ( I don't remember the #) will have his blood spilled on the rocks of shayol ghul. Btw, sacrifice implies the giving up of more than "a papercut" as Cholly impies imo. But since Rand has lost his hand in the last book, he no longer posseses the same number of herons, since one was branded in each palm, and this may void the prophesy in some way. Just something to think about.

68

terez: 2007-01-14

Catalyst:

The voice in Rand's head is the voice of Lews Therin, no doubt. But it is not just a voice, because along the voice there are these memories from the Age of Legends, and the Deathweaves as well. Lews Therin can seize saidin instead of Rand. Probably he can seize control over Rand's body as well.

Explain, then, why Lews Therin couldn't use Rand's hands during the Shadowspawn Attack. ;)


With a single sentence, there are two souls in one body.

Absolutely false.

________________________________
Date: 2003-01-07 | Location: Barnes and Noble
Type: Book Signing | Questioner: Unknown

Q: The question is, with Rand and LTT, do they have 1 soul or 2 souls in the body?
A: They have 1 soul with 2 personalities. The reincarnation of souls does not mean reincarnation of personalities. The personality develops with each reincarnation of the soul. This is the cosmology that I came hobbled together.
________________________________


Can they dismerge at all?

Absolutely not. What is required is "integration," which essentially means that Rand needs to realize that "Lews Therin's thoughts" are his own. That Lews Therin's memories are his own, though from a past life. That Lews Therin's fears and paranoia and suicidal tendencies are his own. There is evidence to suggest that, in all actuality, Rand does realize this, but it is one of those things that he refuses to give a great deal of surface thought to, for reasons that I feel are obvious.

69

apostle1: 2007-01-15

Rand is a hero/savior in a non-linear, renewing world (duh, the WHEEL of time). Therefore, he cannot die. He has neither a beginning nor end. Rand will, of course, fulfill his destiny and die as the prophecies foretell. But it will be a mortal death.

Somehow I can't see Rand dusting off his hands after kicking the Dark One's iznass just to survive into a ripe old age as some kind of polygamous Emperor uber-Sedai.

70

snakes-n-foxes: 2007-01-18

Hi Apostle1

Just a note on your last post. The prophecies do not state that Rand will die.

71

eyeless: 2007-01-19

the prophesies never say he will die, they say his blood with drip on the slopes of shayol ghul not that he will die. but in book #1 min does see a funeral byer with RAND IN IT. that sounds pretty dead to me

72

kaylo: 2007-01-20

Nobody commented no my post, but I wanted to check in case it had been overlooked. Has there been any speculation on Rand's loss of a hand and subsequently a heron and it's impact on the part of the prophesy relating the man marked with a set number of herons to his prophesised fate?

Oh, and on a non-WoT note, Gilshalos Sedai, you made my day with that FSM link. Wow...words can't describe! lol

73

snakes-n-foxes: 2007-01-22

Hi Kaylo

I don't personally see how losing the hand would make a difference – the marks already occurred, though I understand the point you are making.

Hi Eyeless

When Rand asked the snakes-n-foxes how he could survive the last battle, they said 'to live you must die'…

…and Min said of Alivia 'she's going to help you die'

Min saw him on a funeral bier, and so did the Wise Ones and Egwene. Those three viewings need to be viewed together. In Egwene’s dream, when she touched Rand’s face it broke apart like a paper puppet.

……………………………………………………………

So no, Min’s viewing isn’t in the least conclusive. That argument has already been covered in the above posts…the above was just a summary.

74

Davian93: 2007-01-22

**** Nobody commented no my post, but I wanted to check in case it had been overlooked. Has there been any speculation on Rand's loss of a hand and subsequently a heron and it's impact on the part of the prophesy relating the man marked with a set number of herons to his prophesised fate? ****

The Prophecy never says he needs to have both Herons on him when he dies just that they mark him for death essentially. So he's still screwed from the viewpoint.

However, I will state that the prophecies never outright state that Rand will indeed die during Tarmon Gaidon. Everyone who has read the complete prophecies just thinks that it heavily implies that he dies, not that he will. Min states this in KoD and even Elaida thinks this to herself somewhere in FoH or LoC (I forget which).

75

Catalyst: 2007-01-23

One soul with two personalities? What is that supposed to mean? Tell me again, how is that Rand and Lews Therin struggle for saidin? Yes, LTT seizes saidin instead of Rand, and not over his body. But the fact it hadn't happend yet doesn't mean it can't. It will probably happen at Shayol Ghul. And why, why, WHY the timer shows three years left? Is Jordan's disease so bad?

76

monkey: 2007-01-23

guys, haven't been to this site in a good couple of months, and i must say i'm a little dissappointed. This used to be a good place for people to air their views and opinions in a pretty open minded environment..

sadly this no longer seems to be the case as egos seem to have taken over. relax guys, everyone's opinion and interpretation is going to be different, just cos you're one of the main contributors doesn't mean your opinion is the right one.. no-one's view here should ever be described as ignorant just cos it's different to yours, hell the site is called THEORYland, i.e the basis of the discussions are theoretical. put the egos to bed guys and go back to having intellegent debates rather than shouting matches over who's got the biggest..WOT collection..

77

Davian93: 2007-01-25

****One soul with two personalities? What is that supposed to mean? Tell me again, how is that Rand and Lews Therin struggle for saidin? Yes, LTT seizes saidin instead of Rand, and not over his body. But the fact it hadn't happend yet doesn't mean it can't. It will probably happen at Shayol Ghul. And why, why, WHY the timer shows three years left? Is Jordan's disease so bad? ****

It's very simple, its called multiple personality syndrome as one explanation. This theory states that LTT is in fact a personality that Rand has created to distance himself from his emotions in an attempt to be as Hard as a Dragon needs to be. Another theory states that LTT is real and his personality from the AoL is present in Rand's head in the form of memories or the entire personality depending on your intepretation of what a personality is. However, the 2 Soul theory was completely and utterly destroyed by RJ himself during an interview. If you are interested in a better explanation with quotes, please refer yourself to Callandor (I'm sure he has posted to this particular subject). The LTT personality could probably take over Rand's body but it still does not constitute another soul. There is but one Dragon soul, Rand is just the current personality and occupant of that soul.

As for the timer being at 3 years, that is simply because there is no specific release date and it took about that long last time. According to RJ's latest blog (see Dragonmount.com) he is in full remission from his condition right now and feeling better apparently.

78

Callandor: 2007-01-25

**the prophesies never say he will die, they say his blood with drip on the slopes of shayol ghul not that he will die. but in book #1 min does see a funeral byer with RAND IN IT. that sounds pretty dead to me**

Twice to live, and twice to die. Simple.

(And no, there is no dying, and coming back. The larger context of the prophecy clearly show that the twice references are for two markers (herons, then dragons) each signaling clear things: 2 marks for life, 2 marks for death.)

**One soul with two personalities? What is that supposed to mean?**

Exactly what it says: There is only one soul in Rand's body. There are two personalities, however: Rand's and Lews Therin's. It's quite straightforward.

**Tell me again, how is that Rand and Lews Therin struggle for saidin? Yes, LTT seizes saidin instead of Rand, and not over his body.**

Because it's not truly Lews Therin. Again, read the theory. Lews Therin is a construct. It's a separate constructed personality that in truth, deep down, is Rand. It's not Lews Therin and Rand strugging for saidin -- it's Rand struggling with part of himself over it. That's why saidin still comes from Rand, that's why Rand doesn't lose control of his body, that's why it takes Rand to raise his hands to have the effect, that's why we never lose the point of view of Rand. All "Lews Therin" did was channel -- and again, "Lews Therin" is Rand. It's all in Rand's head.

**put the egos to bed guys and go back to having intellegent debates rather than shouting matches over who's got the biggest..WOT collection..**

Uh, ok, now if you don't mind, we'll continue the actual discussion that was going on, and not have to bother with someone who pops in just to say nothing of any contribution to the discussion.

79

Ieyasu: 2007-01-27

Cholly:

**One, there is nothing that says it will happen before the Last Battle, and two, it makes a whole lot more sense for it to happen after. There is not a lot of time left in this series. He won't have time- which he is always complaining about the lack of- to go into hiding before the Last Battle. **

its possible his stint as a beggar has already been fullfilled in his journey to the stone.

Callandor:

**Yet amazingly all messiahs have this thing in common: they die martyrs. I can't recall, what has Jordan called Rand? **

this isnt a true statement at all, but youll have to do your own legwork to figure it out. Not all messiah's (or saviors) die a martyrs death...

**Where did I write that all martyrs die a fake death? All martrys die -- most notably, for the cause they champion. **

yes, all martyrs die -- not all messiahs are martyrs however!

**Yeah, except for the parts where it's said to be impossible -- such as Healing the dead. That tends to limit options a bit. ***

this is merely smoke and mirrors.

you stand up a straw man (and a pretty flimsy one at that)... healing severing was also impossible...

**The prophecies say he will die. Min -- is -- wrong. It's not like it's a contradiction in her viewings -- it's just a contradiction in what she wants. **

can you prove min is wrong? have you read the entire prophecies like she has? like rand has? or is this just your opinion like you said... "Suddenly, where does the discussion go? Nowhere. If you want to convince other people, let alone me, you're going to actually start using evidence and just the evidence not just trying to sell your own obvious interpretation of those quotes." .... do you have any evidence that min is wrong?

i agree with the markings not being a great prophecy: EVERYONE DIES

can you please provide a book quote to support your opinion that min --- is --- wrong?

**Doesn't matter what I think. The point is that you are reading into the quote what you want, and saying it's convincing. I'm sure it is to you, but you have nothing at all but your opinion. Whether it's beyond belief to you or not, thereis nothing at all in that quote about being beyond the Last Battle. At all. That is nothing but your own addition to it, and you're trying to use that itself as evidence. **

kind of like you are doing with min?

**Which again becomes useless. You cannot "Heal" a fake death. There's nothing to Heal. Hence why it's a fake. **

sure you could... perhaps the faking is a weave that slows his breathing and pulse... youd have to heal the fake death to 'arise'

**And no, again, I do not add things in. I use the actual evidence from the books. **

not precisely true, you use actual evidence from the books, then you interpret it to fit your OPINION

Ron al Doskum:

**Further more who can already know that the Last Battle has started in KoD. This via the prophecies of the Seanchan: **

maybe.. but we know that the seanchan prophecies are corrupted, and have things altered or added to them, so this source isnt as valid a source as you propose

______

all in all, i agree with callandor, i think rand will die...

i WANT rand to live, but i think he will die

(i hate having to agree with him *pokes at callandor with a semi-sharpened stick* <3 )

but seriously: i dont like it, i dont want it, but i think rand will not survive TG... but i hope he does!

80

snakes-n-foxes: 2007-01-29

*********Twice to live, and twice to die. Simple.

(And no, there is no dying, and coming back. The larger context of the prophecy clearly show that the twice references are for two markers (herons, then dragons) each signaling clear things: 2 marks for life, 2 marks for death.)***********

Excuse me, but what ‘larger context’ are you referring to? When you say ‘the larger context’, are you simply talking about the following :

Twice and twice shall he be marked,

twice to live, and twice to die,

Once the heron to set his path.

Twice the heron, to name him true.

Once the Dragon for remembrance lost.

Twice the Dragon for the price he must pay."

There is no need for a prophecy to say ‘he is alive, and he will die’ because that is a foregone conclusion for any person ever born.

The prophecy is ambiguous from the point of view that it can easily be interpreted to read as though it’s only talking about identifying markings. Yet identification (like saying ‘he will live and die’) is basically meaningless, because TDR has fulfilled many other identifying prophecies, most notably drawing Callandor.

So it suffers from pointlessness, but the thing that actually makes it ambiguous is, no matter how you argue against it, it can also read that TDR is to ‘live’ and ‘die’ twice.

The latter interpretation is supported by the total of : (How do I survive the Last Battle) -‘To live you must die’, and ‘he who is dead yet lives’. Those two prophecies strongly support the interpretation of the heron markings prophecy to mean literally ‘twice to live, and twice to die’…as here we now have three prophecies saying pretty much the same thing.

However you argue, you simply cannot dismiss this that these three prophecies say pretty much the same thing.

Those three prophecies are in turn supported by : ‘she’s going to help you die’ (the likely means of Rand’s first ‘death’), and ‘Rand on a funeral, and when she touched his face it broke apart like a paper puppet’ (the apparent first ‘death’).

Still, I don't know why people are arguing so much about the heron marking prophecy, as it's only one in a series of prophecies of relation to the OP's theory, and by itself, hardly a conclusive one at that.

81

Catalyst: 2007-01-31

Ieyasu:

Read LoC, Chapter 14, Dreams and Nighrmares, Nicola's foretelling. Here it is in case you are too lazy to do it.

"The lion sword (Elayne), the dedicated spear (Aviendha), she who sees beyond (Min). Three on the boat, and HE WHO IS DEAD YET LIVES (the Dragon Reborn fulfilled his destiny and oficially is dead, but...). The land divided by the return (the Seanchan's Corenne; they keep Tarabon, Altara and Amadicia) and the guardians (the Asha'man) balance the servants (the Aes Sedai). The future teeters on the edge of a blade." The words in brackets are mine.

Besides, do you think that Jordan is such a bad guy to kill the savior of the bloody world?

82

Ieyasu: 2007-02-03

Catalyst:

**Read LoC, Chapter 14, Dreams and Nighrmares, Nicola's foretelling. Here it is in case you are too lazy to do it. **

Easily explained as a lingering coma until death, or any other of the many spins.

But I'm with you as well, I want Rand to live, I really do, as I said. I just do not believe it is going to happen. This isn't a Disney movie... I don't see Rand living 'happily ever after'... regardless of my hopes to the contrary.

**Besides, do you think that Jordan is such a bad guy to kill the savior of the bloody world?**

Yes, I do think RJ is capable of killing Rand off. I don't think that will make him a "bad guy"

83

Catalyst: 2007-02-06

Maybe this is some kind of a reward. Let me explain it like this. This is only a suggestion, mind.

What does Rand want? He wants to win and survive. Nicola's foretelling says it will happen, as I pointed out. The soul of the Dragon is probably the very first woven into the Pattern, and being that special thread, he is meant to balance it: sometimes standing on the side of the Light, and sometimes he is the Shadow's High Champion, most commonly known as the Nae'blis; in the Great Hunt Hawkwing says he had fought Lews Therin as many times as they were on the same side. Along the ages countless times he was born to be used for the Wheel's needs. This is maybe the heaviest duty. The Creator probably made it so that there was a reward for every time the Dragon saves the world and let him do as he desired afterwards. Rand's desire is to survive that battle and the Creator is going to oblige him. Him, as his allies.

Rand al'Thor removes himself from the world after the Last Battle, or at least officially.

Elayne remains in Caemlyn as the Queen of Andor.

Egwene rules the White Tower and becomes known as the Greatest Amyrlin in history.

Mat rules the Seanchan with Tuon (Jordan stated that he will write a sequel about them ten years after TG).

Perrin rules... we have to see what the Broken Crown means.

Morgase rules Cairhien.

Lan and Nynaeve reincarnate Malkier.

Logain serves the Black Tower as the Black Flame of Avalon (or whatever name they give the city that holds the Black Tower), the High Guardian, the M'Hael.

One more notion: Asmodean in fact was never dead, but rather creates musical instrumets from the Age Of Legends, such as the electric guitar, the bass guitar, and the Heavy Metal as well.

84

Finwitch: 2007-02-08

Twice and twice shall he be marked,

twice to live, and twice to die,

Once the heron to set his path.

Twice the heron, to name him true.

Once the Dragon for remembrance lost.

Twice the Dragon for the price he must pay."

-Note that the price he must pay is not told-it does not say he will die. Of course, it dosen't say he will live either, so this is invalid.

Right, it doesn't say. We do know what the Herons mean, of course - the Herons he got to his hands while battling the Dark One. After the second he DID name himself the Dragon Reborn, so that part is clear.

The Dragons he got in Rhuidean, apparently.

Once a Dragon for Remembrance Lost -- Apparently, seeing the things of his ancestor, particularly the event of the Aiel/Thua'athan parting ways. This is also what all Clan Chiefs do - they also have one dragon.

As for the second - for the price he must pay.

Of course this doesn't say what the price is. Considering Ji'e'Toh, though -- I think it's all the *women* that die for Rand and his reaction to that; The pain Rand suffers in his wounds (the non-healing ones);

--

"Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.

Once for mourning, once for birth.

Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow."

I believe this simply refers to Rand cleancing Saidin in Shayol Ghul. The Taint came out trough the wound along with his blood -- thus truly freeing MEN of the Shadow. (Channelling ones anyway). Plus, it IS the place said plainly!

Guardians balance out the servants.

Guardians (Asha'man in old Tongue) - Servants (Aes Sedai: Servants of All).

I suppose this is where Rand got the idea for the Black Tower.

Anyway, I think that most of these speak of what happened the LAST time. Rand took deliberately upon himself to fulfill these though.

I think the Divided Land upon Return is Andor as Elayne returned there...

Most of these already done. Rand's been busy, hasn't he?

Anyway, To Live, You Must Die - I think that's very simple though. If you want to LIVE, rather than EXIST, you must be a mortal. Coming from an immortal, bored Finn - I'd say that's all it is.

85

Marie Curie 7: 2007-02-12




Catalyst:


*** Morgase rules Cairhien. ***

Hmm. I'm not sure where you get that Morgase will rule Cairhien. Morgase herself has no direct blood connection to Cairhien. Morgase was married to Tairingail Damodred, so Elayne has a blood tie to Cairhien as Tairingail's daughter.

Finwitch:

*** In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow."

I believe this simply refers to Rand cleancing Saidin in Shayol Ghul. The Taint came out trough the wound along with his blood -- thus truly freeing MEN of the Shadow. (Channelling ones anyway). Plus, it IS the place said plainly!

Anyway, I think that most of these speak of what happened the LAST time. Rand took deliberately upon himself to fulfill these though.

I think the Divided Land upon Return is Andor as Elayne returned there... ***

The Cleansing took place at Shadar Logoth, not Shayol Ghul.

What do you mean by "what happened LAST TIME"? If you mean Lews Therin, that's not the case. The prophecies (i.e., the Karaethon Cycle) clearly refer to the Dragon Reborn (i.e., Rand). For example, here is a portion of the Karaethon Cycle from The Shadow Rising:

----

TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 6 - Doorways

Power of the Shadow made human flesh,


wakened to turmoil, strife and ruin.


The Reborn One, marked and bleeding,


dances the sword in dreams and mist,


chains the Shadowsworn to his will,


from the city, lost and forsaken,


leads the spears to war once more,


breaks the spears and makes them see,


truth long hidden in the ancient dream.

----

Finally, the "land divided by the return" is generally believed to refer to the Seanchan (not Elayne), since the Seanchan hold a good portion of the south and west of Randland, while Rand holds the north and east.


86

A-Vron: 2007-03-17

Great theory & discussion. I read the whole string plus Callandor’s ‘Lews Therin is a construct’ thesis, so here goes my take.

My opinion is most in line with hashpond420 & Chang, though some of hashpond420’s conclusions, like the whole ‘Alivia will take LTT’s soul out of Rand & put it in Moridin’ thing. That sounds really random & off the wall. As off track that some of the posts have gotten, to me the entire To Live, You Must Die-The Rand Logain Connection revolves around two main quotes:

(1) The Aelfinn saying “…If you would live, you must die” in response to Rand’s question "How can I win the Last Battle and survive?" in Ch 15 of TSR.

(2) Nicola’s foretelling in Ch 14 of LoC: “The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on a boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade.”

I think Callandor’s ‘LT is a construct’ thesis was great & I agree with nearly everything in it. Rand, using LTT’s memories, built LTT within his mind. However, I don’t think that the people of Randland saw it that way & to me that has to be an important aspect to consider. I think that all of the characters that knew of or suspected LTT’s voice in Rand’s head (including Semirhage, Cadsuane & even Rand himself) perceived that voice as being LTT himself. Not only a dual personality but an actual second entity inside of Rand. This duality is evident at the battle of Falme when Hawkwing addresses Rand as Lews Therin. It is evident when any of the Foresaken speak to or of Rand & refer to him as Lews Therin.

Now back to the two quotes. Why could the Aelfinn not have been addressing both Rand & LTT in the answer they gave? To clarify, the quote ends with “…If you would live, you must die” but it could be read “…If you Rand would live, then you LTT must die.” If other human characters in the series acknowledge Rand’s duality, why couldn’t the Aelfinn?

With Nicola’s foretelling, Catalyst did a great job of breaking down who each part of the foretelling is referring to with this post:

*********************

Catalyst 1-31-07

"The lion sword (Elayne), the dedicated spear (Aviendha), she who sees beyond (Min). Three on the boat, and HE WHO IS DEAD YET LIVES (the Dragon Reborn fulfilled his destiny and officially is dead, but...). The land divided by the return (the Seanchan's Corenne; they keep Tarabon, Altara and Amadicia) and the guardians (the Asha'man) balance the servants (the Aes Sedai). The future teeters on the edge of a blade." The words in brackets are mine.

**********************

I agree with all of this except the ‘and he who is dead yet lives’ part. This doesn’t refer to just the Dragon Reborn, but the Dragon himself and the Dragon Reborn, LTT and Rand. LTT is dead, yet Rand lives though they are the same person. Again I see this as an acknowledgement of Rand’s duality.

The duality is shown again in PoD in Ch 13 & 14 (thanks Callandor, I found this in your thesis). In these chapters Rand sees the swirling colors as he thinks of LTT. We see this happen many times later on in CoT & KoD when Rand, Mat or Perrin think of each other. So when Rand thought of LTT in PoD, he is really thinking of himself, resulting in the swirling colors.

My conclusion is this, there will be no fake death. The funeral bier that Egwene dreamed of is simply symbolism for a death, not Rand’s but LTT’s. Here is where Alivia’s help will come into play & I won’t pretend to have the insight or imagination of RJ so I have no clue how she’ll do it. But in the end, Lews Therin will finally get his eternal rest, and the next time the wheel needs to balance against the rising shadow, the Dragon will be reborn once again. But this time the voice in the poor saps head will not be the raving lunatic Lews Therin, but will be Rand Al’Thor’s. I believe that Rand will survive TG & after his ‘separation’ from LTT, Rand will be able to essentially retire. But before he does, he will appoint Logain as the leader of the Black Tower.

87

Terez1: 2007-03-21

A-Vron:

“I think Callandor’s ‘LT is a construct’ thesis was great & I agree with nearly everything in it. Rand, using LTT’s memories, built LTT within his mind. However, I don’t think that the people of Randland saw it that way & to me that has to be an important aspect to consider. I think that all of the characters that knew of or suspected LTT’s voice in Rand’s head (including Semirhage, Cadsuane & even Rand himself) perceived that voice as being LTT himself. Not only a dual personality but an actual second entity inside of Rand. This duality is evident at the battle of Falme when Hawkwing addresses Rand as Lews Therin. It is evident when any of the Foresaken speak to or of Rand & refer to him as Lews Therin.”

I’m not sure that you ever clarified exactly what your point was with this. What does the perception of Lanfear et al. have to do with anything? You say it is an important aspect to consider, but why?

“Now back to the two quotes. Why could the Aelfinn not have been addressing both Rand & LTT in the answer they gave? To clarify, the quote ends with “…If you would live, you must die” but it could be read “…If you Rand would live, then you LTT must die.” If other human characters in the series acknowledge Rand’s duality, why couldn’t the Aelfinn?”

The problem with this is that Lews Therin has already died, and has been reborn as Rand. The duality can be applied to the “dead yet lives” in Nicola’s Foretelling at any point in the series, but Nicola’s Foretelling is from after the Last Battle. “To live, you must die” clearly indicates that he must die - Lews Therin has already died, so this must refer to Rand. According to the Construct theory, Lews Therin is not an actual entity - he is merely a constructed personality based on memories, which of course contain Lews Therin’s true personality (pre-taint, during taint, and post-Healing) and also contains Rand’s suppressed thoughts and emotions. The construct is not a living entity, and therefore it cannot die.

“The duality is shown again in PoD in Ch 13 & 14 (thanks Callandor, I found this in your thesis). In these chapters Rand sees the swirling colors as he thinks of LTT. We see this happen many times later on in CoT & KoD when Rand, Mat or Perrin think of each other. So when Rand thought of LTT in PoD, he is really thinking of himself, resulting in the swirling colors.”

Unfortunately, I think you misinterpreted the passage that Callandor quoted in his theory (Callandor’s emphasis preserved):

________________________________
TITLE: Path of Daggers
CHAPTER: 13 - Floating Like Snow

What would you do? he thought. Are you there? And then, doubtfully, hating the doubt, Were you ever there? Silence answered, deep and dead in the emptiness that surrounded him. Or was there mad laughter somewhere in the recesses of his mind? Did he imagine it, like the feel of someone looking over his shoulder, someone just on the brink of touching his back? Or the colors that swirled just out of sight, more than colors, and were gone? A thing of madmen. His gloved thumb slid along the carvings that serpentined the Dragon Scepter. The long green-and-white tassels below the polished spearpoint fluttered in the wind. Fire and ice, and death would come.
________________________________

The point that Callandor isolated as an example of Lews Therin’s gradual return was the suggestion of “mad laughter”. Rand thinks that maybe this mad laughter is just something that he imagines. Rand then goes on to suspect that perhaps he also only imagines the colors and the feel of someone looking over his shoulder. In other words, Rand did not actually experience the colors at this time; he merely compared them to the mad laughter as a possible delusion of a madman.

“My conclusion is this, there will be no fake death. The funeral bier that Egwene dreamed of is simply symbolism for a death, not Rand’s but LTT’s.”

Here again, we have the problem that Lews Therin is already dead, and exists only in Rand’s mind as a constructed personality made from memories and suppression. Lews Therin cannot die again short of Rand’s own death.

“But in the end, Lews Therin will finally get his eternal rest, and the next time the wheel needs to balance against the rising shadow, the Dragon will be reborn once again.”

If you understand the principles of the Construct theory and agree at least mostly with them, I don’t see how you can think that the concept of “eternal rest” for Lews Therin is even relevant, other than the fact that Rand needs to forgive himself both for his own deeds and Lews Therin’s. He cannot forgive himself for Lews Therin’s deeds until he accepts them as his own, and he likely will not forgive himself either his own deeds or Lews Therin’s until Moiraine comes back. She will likely be the catalyst for that “eternal rest”, such as it is. But there is also the fact that Rand needs to recognize Lews Therin’s deeds (and memories) as his own, and I rather think that Birgitte will have something to do with that. (Callandor doesn’t necessarily think so, but he says that he can see it happening and that he would love to see even a brief conversation between Rand and Birgitte. I don’t think she can avoid him forever.)

“But this time the voice in the poor saps head will not be the raving lunatic Lews Therin, but will be Rand al’Thor’s.”

Yes, Rand needs to recognize that Lews Therin’s “voice” is actually his own inner voice.

“I believe that Rand will survive TG & after his ‘separation’ from LTT, Rand will be able to essentially retire. But before he does, he will appoint Logain as the leader of the Black Tower.”

I disagree that Rand will survive, but that is a different debate. :) But I do not think that Rand will “appoint” Logain to lead the Black Tower, for some strong reasons. For one, Logain has already, by his own merits, become a strong leader among the Asha’man - he is the one that they all look to (besides Taim’s cronies, of course) for leadership, because he is the only one not in Taim’s group or Rand’s coterie to have been awarded the Dragon pin, and probably also because his name was also well known for being a false Dragon. He is strong both in the Power and in his own character - the bit that we see of his actions inside the Black Tower grounds shows that he is principled and honorable in his leadership. Also, I doubt that Logain could achieve “glory such as most men never dream of” from a simple appointment - he will likely be forced to tackle the Black Tower in Rand’s absence, and he will likely gain the leadership of the Asha’man in that fashion.

88

A-Vron: 2007-03-27

Terez1, thanks for the reply, I’m trying to learn as much on the Theoryland process as I can.

I’ll try to clarify my initial point for you. The reason that I think it's important that we consider the views of the characters of the books is because (other than outside resources like this site, the Guide, interviews with RJ, etc.) that is the only vantage point that we have. We see the story play out through their eyes, so their understanding of a situation should be relevant to us as readers.

We have seen many instances when characters of the books refer to Rand as Lews Therin, from which I concluded that the characters believe there to be two entities within Rand. Again, this is not what I believe to be true, just what I think the characters believe to be true. I agree with Callandor that the voice is simply a construct of Rand’s own making & not a 2nd entity, but the way that I read the books, the characters do not see it that way. Because of this assumption, the riddle/answer given by the Aelfinn still holds true: "...for you {RAND} to live, you {LTT} must die."

Before we get into the ‘he’s already dead!’ thing again, LTT obviously cannot actually die again (he’s not Mat after all), but if Rand were to realize that the voice in his head was actually of his own making, LTT would essentially ‘die’ within Rand’s mind. Alivia could help Rand realize this, or perhaps she will discover some way to Heal a mental issue, as I said in my 1st post I don’t know how her ‘help’ will come to fruition. I really like the idea of the return of Moiraine helping with Rand’s realization though.

I admit that I failed at embellishment in the last paragraph of my initial post by saying that LTT would get his eternal rest. He’s dead. He’s at rest. Done.

The next part about the next dragon reborn having Rand’s voice in his head was evidently again failed embellishment on my part. I realize the voice will again be due to a construct, but I thought it was an interesting idea. Rand constructs LTT’s voice because he remembers what LTT’s voice sounds like as he gains LTT’s memories. The next dragon reborn will be gaining Rand’s memories, so I think it’s a logical step that as he gains Rand’s memories, he will construct a personality within his head that ‘speaks’ to him with Rand’s voice.

As for Logain, I agree with you that he has shot to the forefront by his own deeds and actions not through anything given to him by Rand, but the Black Tower is still Rand’s creation. Rand appointed Taim & I believe Rand will do the same for Logain. I also agree with you that it will ultimately be Logain that defeats Taim for control of the BT.

After all of this, I still agree with the first sentence from Cholly: "Theory: The reason for this theory is to prove without a doubt, with no reason for skepticism, that Rand al'Thor will survive Tarmon Gai'don." The only thing that I was trying to add to the discussion was that I think that the words ‘die’ & ‘death’ surrounding Rand are referring to LTT. Not from a literal definition of death, but as a writers embellishment for the time when Rand realizes LTT’s memories have now become part of his own. That realization will result in Rand no longer hearing the voice & LTT ‘dying’ to him.

Am I way off base? Perhaps, but hopefully I’m interestingly off base.

89

Catalyst: 2007-03-30

If the Dragon always recieves the memories of his previous reincarnation, why in the War of the Shadow there is no such event about Lews Therin?

And something else I thought of. The Wheel turns into the eternity, it has seven Ages. Was it said that the Age which the books describe is the Third Age? Yes, there are quotes from Fourth Age authors in the books, but the event we all want to read as soon as possible (thousand regrets that RJ has that blood disease), the Last Battle, isn't it the sign that the Wheel simply turns once more? And all those books from the Fourth age would actually be from the First Age, and so on...

90

Marie Curie 7: 2007-04-02

Catalyst:
"If the Dragon always recieves the memories of his previous reincarnation, why in the War of the Shadow there is no such event about Lews Therin?"

Because sealing the Dark One's prison caused a backlash that tainted saidin. It's the taint that is causing the memories of the previous incarnation to seep through in Rand's case. That is explained in the Barrier Degradation theory.

"And something else I thought of. The Wheel turns into the eternity, it has seven Ages. Was it said that the Age which the books describe is the Third Age? Yes, there are quotes from Fourth Age authors in the books, but the event we all want to read as soon as possible (thousand regrets that RJ has that blood disease), the Last Battle, isn't it the sign that the Wheel simply turns once more? And all those books from the Fourth age would actually be from the First Age, and so on..."

The Age that we're reading about is called the Third Age:

-------
TITLE: Eye of the World, Chapter: 1 - An Empty Road

The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again. In one Age, called the Third Age by some, an Age yet to come, an Age long past, a wind rose in the Mountains of Mist. The wind was not the beginning. There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time. But it was a beginning.
-------

Also, RJ tells us it is the Third Age. From Thus Spake the Creator:

-------
Q: What age # was the age of legends?
A: The age before the third age. The breaking of the world brought on the third age. The trolloc and hundred years wars were only punctuations in local history.
-------

It seems like what you are asking about in part is whether there is anything special about this particular Last Battle. According to RJ, no. From Thus Spake the Creator again:

--------
Q: At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?
A: No... Every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless.
--------

91

Aryl: 2007-04-12

ok that was a really long read, and I can't quite say I caught all of it, however Snakes N Foxes posted something I thought a reply on was necessary...

"But the prophecies talk of dying twice – now how is that achieved ? There are only two answers that we know of to live twice :

1. A literal first death – balefire brings Rand back after he is killed; or

2. A ‘second-meaning’ first death – a ‘fake death’ where everyone believes TDR dead – therefore to the world he has died. "

What about 3. That the second death is actual true death, and the first death is symbolic? Perhaps the MASKS in the vision that was mentioned.

"-The Path Of Daggers, Chapter 15, Stronger Then Written Law, Page 308

-Egwene's POV, Dreaming in the Rebel Camp

"Rand, wearing different masks, until suddenly one of those false faces was no longer a mask, but him." he does indeed lose his masks, and perhaps one of his dual personalities dies with that. ? Maybe.. anyways

Who says its rand that will remain if the death does indeed reference the mask. He is becoming more and more like Lews, so why not fully become him and lose rand... its quite possible, and as lews is more knowledgeable in the use of the one power, perhaps that would be for the better. Food for thought. If so, poor poor rand.

92

ruarc: 2007-04-14

something callandor said got me you know how rand is tied to the wheel what if after he dies he gets torn from telaran rhiod like birgette i dont know just speculation

93

irerancincpkc: 2007-07-13

Just from reading the theory and the first twenty replies or so, I like it. It's definetly possible; more possible, I think, then Rand dying. I like the idea of Rand being ressurected just as much, if not more then your idea, but nice theory, like I said. We can at least agree that Rand will live. :)

94

Ashaman Leyrann Gaidin: 2011-07-02

Maybe someone mentioned it already - It's late already, and I don't want to read 93 comments, but if Logain becomes Dragon Reborn after TG, then I should think he would have to be the one who pulled Callandor out of the Stone, because he would be the "one who follows after". He would be the DR after TG, if this theory (and I like it) is right.

95

supernoddypo2k7: 2011-11-10

I always thought that Rand just dies and that allows him to be reborn later, and the Wheel goes on.