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wice Dawns the Day...

by Kalli: 2006-10-03 | 5.53 out of 10 (19 votes)

Recent Categories: How Will It End?

Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.

Once for mourning, once for birth.

Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow.

- The Great Hunt, Discord

Key definition

Dawn - first appearance of daylight in the morning

- the beginning or rise of an advent

I look at this section of the prophecy and I think it is perhaps the biggest prophecy to be fulfilled. If the Prophecies of the Dragon are the key to the survival of the world then this bit of the prophecy is the crux of it all. I read this passage and scores of foretelling and dreams and visions all come to mind. The general gist of all those “prediction” for lack of a better term are about Rand, his blood, his death, who has a hand in it, so on and so forth. Then I read it again and again and four words distinctly stand out. Four word for which I can recall no foretelling, no dreams, and no visions. Yet it is clear a major event. TWICE DAWNS THE DAY… and I think how in the hell can a day dawn twice…

Sure there could be a freak eclipse on the day it all goes, but I wouldn’t count on it. The only time the moon is ever mentioned in the Wheel of Time is A; when moon light reflects off armor (New Spring) or B; the telescopes being invented at the Academies. The moon has never played a significant role before and why would Robert Jordan just cram an event like that in there? HE WOULDN’T!!!…I think…

So here are two possibilities to the problem.

Interpretation 1:

A day could dawn twice only if the first dawn had taken place in that particular geographic location and the entire pattern was balefired back to the point before sunrise. Then the day could physically dawn for a second time that day.

Counter to Interpretation 1:

When we have witnessed balefire in the past it was never used in a scale large enough to cause large to affect every person in the pattern in the world. (remember the whole world has to rotate back to the position before the sunrise in the geographic location this take place)

Examples:

Moiraine uses balefire to destroy the Darkhounds.

Moiraine kills Be'lal with balefire.

Rand kills Rahvin with balefire.

We have heard that it was used in The War of the Shadow to level cities for the course of a year before both sides stopped using it. The affects of that widespread use of balefire was said to have nearly caused the pattern to unravel.

Demandred hesitated. A bead of sweat slid half an inch on his cheek; it seemed to take an hour. For a year during the War of Power, both sides had used balefire. Until they learned the consequences. Without agreement, or truce (there had never been a truce any more than there had been quarter) each side simply stopped. Entire cities died in balefire that year, hundreds of thousands of threads burned from the Pattern; reality itself almost

If balefire was to be used to create the two dawns in one day . Then world would have to be balefired back to the point before the first sunrise. That would cause every thread in the pattern to be undone up to the point just prior to sunrise. I think we can all agree it is far more devastating to balefire all the threads of the pattern than just the hundreds of thousands of threads associated with cities being balefired. This on top of the fact the DO has ordered the weakening of the pattern through use of balefire.

WOULD YOU UNLEASH THE BALEFIRE IN MY SERVICE, DEMANDRED?

SO YOU SHALL.

I think Interpretation 1 would simple cause the pattern to completely unravel because Demandred is already do his best to weaken the pattern has it is and the scale on which the balefire would need to be is just to great for the pattern to handle.

Interpretation 2:

I think there will be some sort of battle between Mordin and Rand at Shayol Ghul. In which Mordin battles Rand with the True Power. We know that only Mordin now has the blessings of the Dark One to wield the True Power, Demandred has clearly stated so.

He himself had never touched the True Power except at need. Great need. Of course, only Moridin had that privilege now, since his . . . anointing. The man truly was insane to use it so freely. It was a drug more addictive than saidin, more deadly than poison.

-Winter’s Heart, Wonderful News

Now we must back track to the Prologue to the Eye of the World in which Ishamael (Moridin) used the True Power to cure LLT of the madness he was suffering. We know he used the True power because Robert Jordan said so at the Menlo Park COT signing. (can’t find the quote) Now pay attention to the effects of True Powers use here.

His sudden smile was cruel. "But I fear Shai'tan's healing is different from the sort you know. Be healed, Lews Therin!" He extended his hands, and the light dimmed as if a shadow had been laid across the sun. Pain blazed in Lews Therin, and he screamed, a scream that came from his depths, a scream he could not stop.

This section here is written in a third person perspective and from this perspective we can see that the true power had a dimming effect on the sun light. Conversely, I don’t think that what Ishamael did was healing.

“…I was never very skilled at Healing, and I follow a different power now…What I can do will serve as well, for my purposes." His sudden smile was cruel. "But I fear Shai'tan's healing is different from the sort you know. Be healed, Lews Therin!”

He directly says he was never good at healing and the statement “What I can do will serve as well, for my purposes.” infers that what he is about to do is not healing but something else that will create the effect he wants. Which I for LLT to regain his sanity. In addition Shai’tan is the Lord of the Grave, Master of Death and Destruction… since when does the Master of all that is Evil truly heal someone? I really suspect it something more dark and sinister then “healing.”

I suspect that he could of done several things and though I have my opinion has to what happened I will not definitively pick one because that could in and of itself cause quite a debate. So, here are two possibilities. Maybe it is what happened maybe it is not.

1. He was turned to the dark by Ishamael using the true power. Thus granting him the Dark Ones protection from the taint and madness. Remember, we don’t know what capabilities one person has with the true power, so maybe it is possible that a circle of thirteen shadow-soul channelers is not required.

Evidence that we the reader have too little information to truly comprehend the full nature of the True Power.

Mierin had said today was the day. She said she had found a new source for the One Power. Female Aes Sedai and male would be able to tap the same source, not separate halves. What men and women could do united would be even greater now that there would be no differences.

2. It is also possible that Ishamael used the True Power to created a buffer around LLT’s link to saidin in order to stop the taint from flowing into him.(Think of the buffer has a hand gripping a piece of wet rope, the rope is saidin and water in the rope the taint. Has you pull the rope (saidin) through your clenched hand(buffer) the water (taint) is squeezed out). Then depending on how the taint operates after it enters the body. Ishamael either drew the remaining taint out of LLT in some fashion or possibly the taint itself is not self sustaining with out its connection to the Dark One and it dissipated. Either way LLT experiences searing and “outflowing” sensations of pain. It left him extremely weakened but sane.

No matter what Ishamael did with the to grant LLT’s his sanity the process of using the true power the way he did created that dimming of light effect. The dimming of light affect can be attributed to either the weave he used to ‘heal’ LLT or the true power. I believe that the it is the true power that is affecting the world we can see that the true power also had real world effects when it is used.

His fingers tightened in the wrought-iron grille across the window; the metal groaned, twisting, not from his grip but from the tendrils of the True Power, drawn from the Great Lord himself, that wreathed around the grille work, flexing as he flexed his hand in anger.

-The Path of Daggers, Unweaving

Once again the true power that’s directly from the Dark One shows a corrupting and volatile nature indeed it almost seems has if it’s use is a direct violation of nature.

Ba'alzamon fled, man and shadow vanishing.

For a moment Rand stared, frowning. There had been a sense of--folding--as Ba'alzamon left. A twisting, as if Ba'alzamon had in some way bent what was.

-The Dragon Reborn, What Is Written in Prophecy

If saidin had been used to make the gateway then Rand would of felt the tremendous amount of saidin that need to used to make the gateway and he would of seen the residues that saidin had left has well. It seems that using the true power to create gateways is not similar to saidin where you bore a whole from one part of the pattern to another. The true power more or less seems to bend reality but, we can’t be sure with out more knowledge on the subject.

So now we come full circle… How does a day dawn twice short of balefire? I think it comes down to Rand battling Mordin, most like at the Pit of Doom has it is mentioned in that portion of the prophecy. Now more then like Rand is going to be battling Moridin with some sort of an angreal… or sa’angreal. I would suspect the Male Choedan Kal to be precise… Well, we know that Rand has limits has to how much saidin he can draw before he before he would burn out the sa’angreal just increases the amount he can handle. Moridin, on the other hand, will most likely be channeling the True Power and we learn of the nature of the True Power through these quotes:

The True Power, drawn directly from the Great Lord. . . .

The Power that came from the Dark One. . . .

True Power, drawn from the Great Lord himself. . . .

In the long run, the True Power was far more addictive than the One Power; a strong will could hold down the desire to draw more saidar or saidin, but she herself did not believe the will existed strong enough to resist the True Power. . . .

-A Crown of Swords, Mindtrap

The True Power washed around her, so strong here that attempting to channel it would fry her to a cinder. (this is at Shayol Ghul)

-A Crown of Swords, Mindtrap

Rand will be battling a man who is drawing power directly from the Dark One and will very likely not stop drawing on the True Power in effort to match what Rand is drawing with the Male Choedan Kal. I believe that that much of the True Power being drawn will exponentially amplify the violations of nature associated with it. I think this light dimming effect will become great enough to entomb the world in darkness and the true power will rent other hellish affects across the world creating a scene of utter chaos and destruction on a global scale. This could very well could be what breaks the world a second time.

I will not comment on who will do what in the last battle except that Rand and Mordin will face off and the world will be subjected to darkness and when the battle is finished the darkness will be dispelled, Rand’s blood will have been shed in some fashion, and the second dawn of the day will begin, the world rebroken and the advent of a new age is underway.

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Comments

1

Tamyrlin: 2007-01-07

I like the idea of intermixing the True Power, if this were the case, I am assuming it would have something to do with re-sealing the Bore. However, I am more inclined to believe that the day that dawns twice will be a Pattern Event , like Rand and Moridin fighting in the sky, an effect of the Wheel specific to the moment that Rand defeats the DO, or as I mentioned before, reseals the bore.

2

Hugin and Munin: 2007-01-07

Good theory mate.

Its a nice idea, i for one think the day dawning twice will be linked to Mats rediscovery of Gunpowder and of Fireworks.A version of the Nightflowers from the Illuminators or the Seanchan version from The Damane.

It'd help fufill part of a prophecy (Mat with his fist exploding, one of Egwenes I believe-though that, quite obviously is probably an allusion to gunpowder) and also, RJ has made lots of references to the Sanchan abilities of the Damane (through Tuons POV in WH I hink but not sure) but we've not seen them yet.

Think, The day dawns, TLB rages in whatever form, sun sets, they need more light....BOOM!

Suddenly its light again due to a Flare (Illuminator firework) or from a One Power burst (Kinda like a Aurora).

But the TP idea has a lot of merit. If Rand does use the CK (and I believe the female Terangreal was damaged?), Moridin or whoever would need a lot of back up. Fighting at SG would give him the direct link up to the TP, "

The True Power washed around her, so strong here that attempting to channel it would fry her to a cinder. (this is at Shayol Ghul)" to steal your quote.

Its quite possible!

3

Legend: 2007-01-07

I think the event in FOH may give a clue, it's even enbedded in the title "fires of heaven". The scene pg 710 "...With a jerky nod, he channeled, and something burned high in the sky. Something. A ball of bubbling blue flame that banished shadows in harsh light..." goes on to say how some of the maidens kept eye's closed to preserve night vision. He's hearing the voices of "his people, a faint sound of singing on the wind...it's seem's pretty clear that he channeled something extraordinary, and definitely decisive in the defeat of the Shaido (now imagine that weave w/Callandor in tow), but RJ is very vague about what the nature of the event was,unless i just missed it. But i've always thought it an intriguing scene that may have relevance to a future event.

So maybe the 2nd dawning is an event that simulates daytime for a period. But i must admit i've also thought about the balefire angle burning the thread back to dawn of that day.

4

terez: 2007-01-07

Sure there could be a freak eclipse on the day it all goes, but I wouldn’t count on it. The only time the moon is ever mentioned in the Wheel of Time is A; when moon light reflects off armor (New Spring) or B; the telescopes being invented at the Academies. The moon has never played a significant role before and why would Robert Jordan just cram an event like that in there? HE WOULDN’T!!!…I think…

Just as an aside, the moon is mentioned quite often, though perhaps not in any earth-shattering context. But RJ's frequent and mostly consistent mentions of the moon phases are much of what made it possible to create the WoT Chronology accurately.

I'm not sure what to think about "twice dawns the day" - I've heard several ideas, one of them being the eruption of Dragonmount blotting out the sun, and though I do believe that Dragonmount will blow, I don't really see how that fits.

This could very well could be what breaks the world a second time.

I definitely don't believe that there will be another Breaking - at least, not anything similar to the Breaking that followed the Age of Legends. Rand will break the nations "as the plow breaks the earth" and I think that is a significant distinction. Rand is causing a lot of upheaval, and that upheaval is what will make it possible for the seeds of the future to be planted. Beyond what he has done in Rhuidean, and the eruption of Dragonmount, I don't believe there will be much geological upheaval at all. It will mostly be upheaval of culture and paradigm.

I'm hesitant, however, to comment on your general premise until Callandor takes a hack at it. It seems plausible in some aspects, but this sort of thing isn't really my forté.

5

terez: 2007-01-07

I think the event in FOH may give a clue, it's even enbedded in the title "fires of heaven". The scene pg 710 "...With a jerky nod, he channeled, and something burned high in the sky. Something. A ball of bubbling blue flame that banished shadows in harsh light..." goes on to say how some of the maidens kept eye's closed to preserve night vision. He's hearing the voices of "his people, a faint sound of singing on the wind...it's seem's pretty clear that he channeled something extraordinary, and definitely decisive in the defeat of the Shaido (now imagine that weave w/Callandor in tow), but RJ is very vague about what the nature of the event was,unless i just missed it. But i've always thought it an intriguing scene that may have relevance to a future event.

This one is simple. Rand needed to see, specifically the battlefield, so he channeled what is akin to the ball of fire that any Aes Sedai can make, but bigger, and in the sky...so that he could see. ;)

________________________________
TITLE - The Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 44 - The Lesser Sadness

"Rand al'Thor," he said aloud, and shivered, though his coat was damp with sweat. For an instant, that name had sounded strange to him. "I am Rand al'Thor, and I need to. . . . I need to see."

He had not eaten since morning, but then, the taint on saidin drove hunger away. The Void quivered constantly, and he hung on to the True Source by his fingernails. It was like riding a bull driven mad by redwort, or swimming naked in a river of fire churned to rapids by jagged boulders of ice. Yet when he was not on the brink of being gored or battered or drowned, it seemed that saidin was the only strength left in him. Saidin was there, filing at the edges of him, trying to erode or corrode his mind, but ready to be used.

With a jerky nod, he channeled, and something burned high in the sky. Something. A ball of bubbling blue flame that banished shadows in harsh light.

Hills mounded up all around, trees black in the stark illumination.
Nothing moved. A faint sound came to him on a gust of wind. Cheering perhaps, or singing. Or maybe he was imagining things; it was so tiny, he could well have been, and it died with the wind.
________________________________

And no, RJ wasn't vague - Rand was vague. ;) The battle was won because Mat killed Couladin. Primarily, anyway. Rand expended most of his energy in that battle trying to fight off attacks of saidin, though he did manage to destroy quite a few Shaido-covered hilltops with a nifty weave that he picked up from Lews Therin's memories.

6

Callandor: 2007-01-08

**Sure there could be a freak eclipse on the day it all goes, but I wouldn’t count on it. The only time the moon is ever mentioned in the Wheel of Time is A; when moon light reflects off armor (New Spring) or B; the telescopes being invented at the Academies. The moon has never played a significant role before and why would Robert Jordan just cram an event like that in there? HE WOULDN’T!!!…I think…**

Well, it does play a role in the WoT chronology, and is mentioned a bit with it's phases in the books. It's quite an important marker for that.

But there's not much plot wise about the moon other than Thom remarking on old legends of flying to the moon.

**I think Interpretation 1 would simple cause the pattern to completely unravel because Demandred is already do his best to weaken the pattern has it is and the scale on which the balefire would need to be is just to great for the pattern to handle.**

Aside from saying the evidence for a massive super-secret balefire project is wanting, balefire in this instance depends on how it occurs. It need not have to balefire every thread back a day -- I don't know of a way that you could, really. It just has to be that someone is balefired by a powerful enough amount that the Pattern shifts it's course enough.

But even this fails under two things:

1. It's mostly my personal feelings, but large amounts of balefire at the most important event of the 3rd Age doesn't sound like a good idea "stress" wise.

2. Balefire does not make time go back, truly. It destroys the thread back far enough, but time for everyone else moves to the exact same point. When we saw Rand balefire Rahvin to a huge degree it was still the same time of day/same day when it occured. He didn't balefire Rahvin at 5 pm and come back at 2 am that morning.

Rahvin was balefired, his thread was burned back proportionally to the strength used, and the Pattern played catch up to where Rand and other's threads were at that time. Rand, Nynaeve, and Moghedien were aware of this, to everyone else nothing really happened (though some mention thinking Mat, Aviendha, Asmodean, etc. were dead). The same occured when Rand balefired the Darkhounds, and when Moiraine balefired Be'lal. The changes were instantaneous, not large masses of time shifting back hours (or a day).

**He directly says he was never good at healing and the statement “What I can do will serve as well, for my purposes.” infers that what he is about to do is not healing but something else that will create the effect he wants. Which I for LLT to regain his sanity. In addition Shai’tan is the Lord of the Grave, Master of Death and Destruction… since when does the Master of all that is Evil truly heal someone? I really suspect it something more dark and sinister then “healing.”**

Well, that's simple because Ishamael is not Shai'tan ;) Ishamael Healed Lews Therin, he just did it with the True Power:

**New dreadlords? Via TP? What are limits of TP? When did we see it used before? Access to the TP is a matter of wanting it and the dark one letting you. NOT black cords. In Prologue to EotW we saw TP to heal insanity. The OP can not be used to heal insanity. TP used at SG will fry you instantly.**

**1. He was turned to the dark by Ishamael using the true power.**

Doesn't make any sense as to why if the Dragon soul is now the property of the Shadow that things would still be going on as if it wasn't. Turning requires 13 Myrddraal and 13 Aes Sedai, and the only way we know -- invoking a new way doesn't help the situation.

**If saidin had been used to make the gateway then Rand would of felt the tremendous amount of saidin that need to used to make the gateway and he would of seen the residues that saidin had left has well. It seems that using the true power to create gateways is not similar to saidin where you bore a whole from one part of the pattern to another. The true power more or less seems to bend reality but, we can’t be sure with out more knowledge on the subject.**

Ishamael must have used the True Power, else Rand wouldn't have felt anything -- that's the major property of the True Power, no one but you and the Dark One knows you're using it or can sense it. And Travelling by the True Power is tearing a hole in the Pattern, not folding, as we saw in A Crown of Swords when Moridin did so:

**TITLE: Crown of Swords

CHAPTER: 20 - Patterns Within Patterns

To his ears, the world screamed as he used the True Power to rip a small hole and step outside the Pattern. Sammael did not know how truly he spoke. Small increases in chaos could be every bit as important as large.**

The way Jordan describes it is much more to just continue the theme that Rand has very little idea what he's doing, what's going on, and things are still brand new to him, so how else can he describe it?

**I will not comment on who will do what in the last battle except that Rand and Mordin will face off and the world will be subjected to darkness and when the battle is finished the darkness will be dispelled, Rand’s blood will have been shed in some fashion, and the second dawn of the day will begin, the world rebroken and the advent of a new age is underway.**

But the last quote you give nixes this idea: using the True Power at Shayol Ghul will destroy you. So, how is Moridin to use it at that time?

The idea seems to be on the right track, but misses it. It's not the True Power that causes this, but the source of the True Power: the Dark One. Look at when the Bore was drilled:

**TITLE: Shadow Rising

CHAPTER: 26 - The Dedicated

What seemed a tiny chip of white spun away from the Sharom in a jet of black fire; it descended, deceptively slow, insignificant. Then a hundred gouts spurted everywhere around the huge white sphere. The Sharom broke apart like an egg and began to drift down, falling, an obsidian inferno. Darkness spread across the sky, swallowing the sun in unnatural night, as if the light of those flames was blackness. People were screaming, screaming everywhere.**

The reason why the world is encased in darkness is obvious then in the Last Battle: the seals need to be broken, and when they are the Dark One is back to his previous levels of effect in the Age of Legends (as per above). Hence the darkness. Then, when he's sealed again, the light returns. Hence twice dawns the day.

**He's hearing the voices of "his people, a faint sound of singing on the wind...it's seem's pretty clear that he channeled something extraordinary, and definitely decisive in the defeat of the Shaido (now imagine that weave w/Callandor in tow), but RJ is very vague about what the nature of the event was,unless i just missed it. But i've always thought it an intriguing scene that may have relevance to a future event.**

It's an intriguing scene, but not for those reasons really. It's another weave Rand is using from knowlege of Lews Therin's life. But what he did just illuminated the sky so that he could see (he was quite delirious at the time). The Aiel had already won the battle with the Shadio retreating, hence why he hears the singing and voices.

7

Flinnd: 2007-01-08

I've always held for a more mundane explanation of "twice dawns the day." Webster offers multiple definitions for the term "day." The first ones relate to the rotational period of the earth or a 24-hour period of time. Alternate, and more figurative definitions, allow "day" to mean: "7. a time considered as propitious or opportune: His day will come. . . . 9. period of life or activity: His days are numbered. . . . 11. the contest or battle at hand: to win the day . . . ." As such, I generally take the term "day" not as a specific 24-hour period of time, but more figuratively as in the alternate definitions listed above. With this reading of the word "day", the phrase at hand simply means the day (that is, opportune time, period of activity, or contest/battle at hand) will be marked by two sunrises. The mechanics of this are quite simple, then... the battle begins sometime in the night or pre-dawn hours, the sun rises (first rising), the battle continues to wage throughout the day and into the night, the sun rises again (second rising), the battle ends sometime during the day or night following that second rising. This provides for the sun rising twice and is consistent with an acceptable, albeit slightly figurative, reading of the prophecy. I don't find this figurative use to be out of place in any way as prophecy tends to have a figurative and poetic element to it.

I agree with your assessment that an eclipse will lead to the fulfillment of the prophecy. I would also add that the "time zone" explanation that is occasional given is a stretch. Any role time zones have played in the series up to this point seems so incredibly minor that their use as a prophecy fulfilling device seems extremely unlikely.

Of all the one power or true power explanations that have been provided for this event (balefire, etc.) yours does seem the most practical.

Good job!

8

Myrelle Sedai: 2007-01-08

I've always thought that "Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed" means that his blood will be shed two days in a row.

9

terez: 2007-01-08

"I agree with your assessment that an eclipse will lead to the fulfillment of the prophecy. "

Did you mean to say that, Flinnd? Because Kalli said this:

Sure there could be a freak eclipse on the day it all goes, but I wouldn’t count on it.

And of course, your favored explanation isn't the eclipse one. (yeah, I'm nitpicking, because I'm bored)

I've always thought that "Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed" means that his blood will be shed two days in a row.

I've considered that before, and it might be poetically possible, but really, "the day" refers to one day. It's hard to take it any other way, even poetically.

10

CrazyIrishMan: 2007-01-08

Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.

I feel that people are taking the first four words far to literally. Remember the Prophecies were written in the old tongue and a lot would be lost in translation. Rand is the DR, and the prophecies may see him and LTT as one. "His blood shall be shed twice"[in a significat manner, as opposed to nicked shaving etc.] is a better way of putting it I think. One day for what LTT did in the past, and one day for what Rand will do

11

Flinnd: 2007-01-09

Terez-

Oh the importance of one word. I misplace a "not" in there and meant to say "I agree with you assessment the an eclipse will NOT lead to fulfillment..."

Thanks for the catch :o)

12

lordoftwilight: 2007-01-09

I also thought that the second dawn of the day was to be when Rand came back to life.

I also assumed that the darkness was from LTT point of view in the prolouge of tEotW but looking back at it so it would be describing what he felt like in the third person.

The second dawning of the day could also be a metaphor in which it represents the victory over the shadow.

and does anybody else notice how many of the Dragon's title have to do with dawn: Lord of the Morning, Prince of the Dawn, He who comes with the Dawn. I'm putting these out since I think these would eventually have to do with the idea of twice dawning the day

13

PillowFriends: 2007-01-10

Traveling could creat the effect of a day dawning twice. A battle could be fought and won at dawn. The army could then travel to another location which is still dark to fight another battle, and again, being victorious at sunrise.

14

Balinor: 2007-01-10

"Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed." What is the most important part of this line? Is it "twice dawns the day" or is it "when his blood is shed"? Because if you think that the whole blood-shedding part is the most important, then twice dawns the day can be read as RJ taking poetic license. His blood will be shed on two different days, therefore there will be two dawns. Read that way, this part of the prophecy could already be fulfilled. Once when Ishamael speared Rand with his staff, and twice when Fain cut Rand with his dagger. The two never-healing wounds have been a very important motif in this series. However, the prophecy also mentions the blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul, so the place seems to be tied in as well. But, has anyone noticed how two places are mentioned in the prophecy? Shayol Ghul is mentioned, which could mean the slopes of the mountain itself, as well as the Pit of Doom is mentioned, where the Pattern is at its thinnest in the entire world. Perhaps Rand will shed blood both on the mountain, and in the Pit of Doom.

"In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow."

Is Rand's blood the agent he will use to seal the Bore? Is this what Herid Fel discovered and was killed for? I think that Rand's blood in the Pit will seal the Bore and end the DO's threat in this age. All that "twice dawns the day" stuff is just smoke and mirrors, and distracts from the real meaning of the passage. When the event occurs in the last book, it will probably be a lot more prosaic, and many people will probably be let down.

15

JakOShadows: 2007-01-11

Of all the explanations I've seen Callandor has the best explanation for twice dawns the day in my opinion. Because for all the others, there have to be disclaimers made for them to work. For example, if it is based off traveling, the prophecy has to be based of a first person perspective. I haven't seen much prophecy spoken, foretold or read in that way. And as for linguistics, you really have to stretch for an alternate meaning or expression for it to work. But if it is a direct affect off the seals breaking, then the prophecy turns into a play by play list of what is going to happen. It starts out by mentioning the tests the DR will have to pass(to warn people of the future), then what will happen when the tested person goes to Shayul Ghul and as required. Not to mention, it would be hard to believe that absolutely nothing will happen to the pattern when the seals are broken. and since we have seen through flashbacks that when the DO broke free before that darkness covered the land, it won't be unreasonable to see it happen again in my mind.

16

Anubis: 2007-01-12

**"Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed." What is the most important part of this line? Is it "twice dawns the day" or is it "when his blood is shed"?**

Both parts are equally important.

17

vardene: 2007-01-12

a question was asked back in EoTW, can the DO break the wheel? can he affaect itme itself? if so, he may be the one who turns the wheel back for his own purposes. If it can be done.

18

geno: 2007-01-12

This may seem a little dense, but is it not possible that the passage "Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.." is simply refering to two seperate days that Rand's blood will be shed? This seems to be the most likely answer. The only other possibility I can think of is that the last of the DO's seals will fail and he will be free to touch the world again (resulting in darkness covering the world) before Rand defeats him (thus the darkness goes away the result being a second dawn in the same day) I can't make myself believe that though. I still hold to the idea that Rand cannot defeat the DO directly. Rand is the Dragon, but he is still only a man, flesh and blood. A man cannot stand toe t toe with a deity.

19

Myrelle Sedai: 2007-01-12

*and does anybody else notice how many of the Dragon's title have to do with dawn: Lord of the Morning, Prince of the Dawn, He who comes with the Dawn.*

the Karaethon Cycle has a lot of references to Rand and the dawn,too.

"Like the unfettered dawn shall he blind us, and burn us,"

"For he shall come like the breaking dawn, and shatter the world again with his coming, and make it anew."

"And he who shall be born of the Dawn, born of the Maiden, according to Prophecy, he shall stretch forth his hands to catch the Shadow,"

I think there were a few more, but I can't find them.

20

Ozymandias: 2007-01-12

Myrelle and Flinnd bring up interesting points. As has been said, this quote is interpretable in several ways. Its quite possible, as Balinor has pointed out (and possibly others, just don't remember) that this prophecy refers to two specific days in which the same event happens, not two days occuring in the space of one.

Other possibilites that take a more traditional approach to the interpretation aspect:

1.) If any of you have read Edding's work, specifically the Mallorean, then you'll recall that before the Choice is made, there is a moment of utter darkness. This could be a similar situation, and be an as-yet unknown herald of the coming of the Dragon and Tarmon Gai'don.

2.) It stands to reason that the moment before the Dark One is resealed in his prison, his power will be the strongest. Some last, desperate counterrattack on the part of the Shadow might involve blotting out the sun.

I'm disinclined to believe that either of the individual combatants will have the power to make this happen. The Dark One is the only "character" with this kind of power. I mean, despite Kalli's assertion that Moridin has unlimited access to the True Power, he clearly is restrained by the same shackles that restrict access to the One Power; namely, drawing on too much will kill him. Otherwise this wouldn't be a contest, Moridin would simply draw on more power than Rand ever could, even with the Choedan Kal. Their power certainly wouldn't rival that of the Dark One. So I think its clear that this phenomenon can come from three sources: The Dark One, a Pattern-induced event, or a simple natural explanation, like an eclipse.

To me, the last one stretches the bounds of my credulity. Jordan has spent what... 20 years of his life building this moment, this final battle. It's not gonna be "And the Dragon was struck down in his moment of victory... AND THEN THERE WAS AN ECLIPSE! And when it was over, Rand was standing there grinning suggestively at his harem of suitably diverse ladies." No, for what its worth, my opinion tends to somewhat more drama in the finale.

As a Pattern induced event... I don't really see that happening. The reason being that there isn't a specific day for Tarmon Gai'don. Its not "Tarmon Gai'don is fought the day the sun rises twice" but "the sun rises twice on the day of Tarmon Gai'don." So the Pattern can't plan for that. Which leaves one option, that the Dark One does... something. And with that, I need to go. But I shall enumerate more on this, at a later date

21

Callandor: 2007-01-14

**a question was asked back in EoTW, can the DO break the wheel? can he affaect itme itself? if so, he may be the one who turns the wheel back for his own purposes. If it can be done.**

Since the Dark One is beyond the Wheel and Pattern, like the Creator, yes, he's the only other being who could potentially destroy the Wheel. IF he is free of his prison. Breaking the seals does not equal being free. Just means being back to the power levels he had in the War of Power.

**The only other possibility I can think of is that the last of the DO's seals will fail and he will be free to touch the world again (resulting in darkness covering the world) before Rand defeats him (thus the darkness goes away the result being a second dawn in the same day) I can't make myself believe that though. I still hold to the idea that Rand cannot defeat the DO directly. Rand is the Dragon, but he is still only a man, flesh and blood. A man cannot stand toe t toe with a deity.**

"Defeating" the Dark One doesn't mean fighting "him" directly or anything close to killing him, as you leave the implication. Defeating the Dark One is achieved just by sealing his prison again. The Dark One doesn't get free, the world doesn't end = he loses.

And if the darkness blocking the sun is due to the seals being broken (which I obviously say is the answer), then re-sealing the Dark One's prison properly again will remove that, as well as being a defeat for the Dark One.

22

Anubis: 2007-01-15

Has anyone else thought to consider that just maybe the second dawn might be metaphoric and have nothing at all to do with how light it is out?

23

lordoftwilight: 2007-01-15

Yeah I did Anubus

ALso with Callandor to a certain degree, if the DO is free he could turn day into night since isn't he lord of the night, or is it lord of darkness. Well I don't know exactly what it is but I mentured early a couple of the Dragons other names like Lord of the morning, Prince of the Dawn... implies that he can turn night back into day and end the DO permnent Darkness with his ability to turn night back to the dawn of day. ALso another sidenote hear who would he free from the DO besides the darkhounds, and the Forsaken and those whom swore themselves from the Shadow?

24

Myrelle Sedai: 2007-01-15

***The only other possibility I can think of is that the last of the DO's seals will fail and he will be free to touch the world again (resulting in darkness covering the world) before Rand defeats him (thus the darkness goes away the result being a second dawn in the same day) I can't make myself believe that though. I still hold to the idea that Rand cannot defeat the DO directly. Rand is the Dragon, but he is still only a man, flesh and blood. A man cannot stand toe t toe with a deity.***

Isn't there some part in the Lord of the Rings books where it turns dark in the middle of the day? maybe something like that will happen.

25

Davian93: 2007-01-15

****And if the darkness blocking the sun is due to the seals being broken (which I obviously say is the answer), then re-sealing the Dark One's prison properly again will remove that, as well as being a defeat for the Dark One. ****

While I see where you're going with this Callandor, that type of darkness against the Sun would be more of an eclipse instead of a redawning of the sun. I assume you are referring to the type of Darkness released like when Mierin drilled the Bore at Collam Dam. I think the prophecy is more literal than that type of cop out.

26

JakOShadows: 2007-01-16

Anubis:

The problem with the second dawning of the day being figurative is that nothing else in that prophecy is figurative. It is stating things that will physically happen to and around Rand. So it wouldn't make sense that "twice dawns the day" is the only figurative part of that whole prophecy.

27

Callandor: 2007-01-17

**Well I don't know exactly what it is but I mentured early a couple of the Dragons other names like Lord of the morning, Prince of the Dawn... implies that he can turn night back into day and end the DO permnent Darkness with his ability to turn night back to the dawn of day.**

Everyone is going on about some innate special ability Rand has. He doesn't! This doesn't require some hitherto unknown ability that is just so uber-cool.

It's fanatically simple.

1. Rand (or someone else, but I'd bet on Rand) breaks the seals.

2. With the seals broken, the Dark One is back to the power levels he had in the Age of Legends -- like the quote I gave in my first post here about the sun being blocked out.

3. Rand seals the Dark One, in whatever means he does (likely at this point is the alternative plan outlined by the BWB involving the Choedan Kal).

4. The Dark One's power now gone, the darkness that blocked out the sun is gone as well.

5. Another "dawn." Hence fulfillment of the prophecy.

6. Rand dies somewhere along this, probably right after/mortally wounded during the sealing.

That simple. Free, darkness, sealed, dawn, death.

**Isn't there some part in the Lord of the Rings books where it turns dark in the middle of the day? maybe something like that will happen.**

Don't know about the Lord of the Rings, but there's a very much implied foreshadowed passage in the books:

**TITLE: The Great Hunt

CHAPTER: 2 - The Welcome

The woman beside the palaquin tapped her staff three times in reply. "The Watcher of the Seals. The Flame of Tar Valon. The Amyrlin Seat."

"Why should we watch?" Ronan demanded.

"For the hope of mankind," the tall woman replied.

"Against what do we guard?"

"The shadow at noon."

"How long shall we guard?"

"From rising sun to rising sun, so long as the Wheel turns."**

How this fits into what I've said previously is fairly obvious.

**While I see where you're going with this Callandor, that type of darkness against the Sun would be more of an eclipse instead of a redawning of the sun.**

It would effectively be a "dawn." But there is no way to have a "literal" two dawns in a day (even with the balefire route, as explained). That's the entire point: it's impossible. It must be figurative at one point, otherwise it must simply not ever happen (which it obviously will).

**The problem with the second dawning of the day being figurative is that nothing else in that prophecy is figurative. It is stating things that will physically happen to and around Rand. So it wouldn't make sense that "twice dawns the day" is the only figurative part of that whole prophecy.**

Why? In what type of literal "dawn" is a mourning dawn? Or a "birth dawn?"

None of the prophecy is literal to me. It's a figurative way of saying that Rand will seal the Dark One (hence freeing men from the Shadow), and will die (the blood references).

How can this prophecy be fulfilled "literally" with two dawns occuring in the same day? It can't. The way I've outlined isn't a dawn, no. But it's as close to truly occuring as well as being mentioned of occuring before in the Age of Legends, as well as making perfect sense in the order of what is likely to occur with what Rand has to do (or what must be done, if you want). As well -- the key point -- it IS possible to occur. That's the big selling point.

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: 2007-01-17

Kalli:


*** He directly says he was never good at healing and the statement "What I can do will serve as well, for my purposes" infers that what he is about to do is not healing but something else that will create the effect he wants. Which I for LLT to regain his sanity. In addition Shai'tan is the Lord of the Grave, Master of Death and Destruction - since when does the Master of all that is Evil truly heal someone? I really suspect it something more dark and sinister then healing. ***

Ishamael did use the True Power on Lews Therin at that point to Heal his insanity, if but for a brief time. That's been commented upon previously. But why would someone evil carry out healing? Because Ishamael wanted Lews Therin to be sane for long enough to realize that he had destroyed everyone he loved - to know that he had earned the label Kinslayer - before he died.

Callandor:

*** The reason why the world is encased in darkness is obvious then in the Last Battle: the seals need to be broken, and when they are the Dark One is back to his previous levels of effect in the Age of Legends (as per above). Hence the darkness. Then, when he's sealed again, the light returns. Hence twice dawns the day. ***

Yeah, I agree. We had a similar discussion about "twice dawns the day" not long ago on the TL message board, and I originally put forth the idea of a Dragonmount eruption blotting out the sun being the cause of the two dawns. But the quote from TSR that Callandor provided is the precisely why I don't believe that to be the cause any more. The description of the darkness from the Dark One blotting out the sun when the Bore is drilled fits too well, in my opinion, for the cause of the two dawns to be anything else.

geno:

*** This may seem a little dense, but is it not possible that the passage "Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.." is simply refering to two seperate days that Rand's blood will be shed? This seems to be the most likely answer. ***

In my opinion, I doubt that the wording really allows for two separate days; otherwise, the prophecy probably would have been written "twice dawns the days."

lordoftwilight:

*** and does anybody else notice how many of the Dragon's title have to do with dawn: Lord of the Morning, Prince of the Dawn, He who comes with the Dawn. ***

The first two titles you listed (Lord of the Morning, Prince of the Dawn) were titles that Lews Therin earned in the Age of Legends (though we don't know how they were earned):

----------------------

TITLE: Eye of the World

CHAPTER: 52 - Neither Beginning Nor End

Moiraine answered slowly. "The banner of the Lord of the Morning when he led the forces of Light against the Shadow. The banner of Lews Therin Telamon. The banner of the Dragon." Loial almost dropped his end.

----

TITLE: Lord of Chaos

CHAPTER: 16 - Tellings of the Wheel


I was the Lord of the Morning, Lews Therin mumbled. I am the Prince of the Dawn. Rand kept his face smooth. "I will not welcome you - this is your land, and the palace of your queen - but I am pleased you accept my invitation." After five days and with just a few hours' notice, but he did not mention that. Rising, he laid the Dragon Scepter on the throne, then trotted down from the dais. With a reserved smile - Never be hostile unless you must, Moiraine had said, but above all never be overly friendly. Never be eager - he gestured to five comfortably cushioned chairs with padded backs, set in a circle among the columns. "Join me. We will talk and have some chilled wine."

----

TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time

CHAPTER: The Wheel and the Pattern

At the onset of the war, the people had turned to the Aes Sedai to defend and guide them. The man who sat in the High Seat of the Hall of the Servants at the time was Lews Therin Telamon, Lord of the Morning, who came to be known as the Dragon. The most powerful man of his time, he was chosen to lead the Ogier (who proved themselves to be as fierce in war as they had been gifted with songs in peace), the human warmen armed with new technology, and the Aes Sedai in the fight to prevent the Dark One from breaking free of his prison. Their idyllic peace and innocence had already been taken. Now, under the Dragon, they struggled to save what was left from ultimate destruction.

----------------------

The final title that was listed (He Who Comes With the Dawn) is a title that Rand has already earned in fulfillment of the Aiel prophecy, returning at dawn from Rhuidean marked as the Car'a'carn. So while it is certainly possible that there is some additional future link between those titles and the "twice dawns the day" prophecy, we already know the origins of Rand's "dawn" titles.

29

lordoftwilight: 2007-01-18

What if the second dawning is the dawning of the Fourth age at the End of the Last Battle and we're just going off on a tangent since when something important happens in real life like this we call it a dawn of a new age so maybe the first dawn is the dawn of the day that Tarmon Giadon takes place and the second is the dawn of the new age after winning Tarmon Giadon

30

terez: 2007-01-22

~gives lordoftwilight the Mandorallen award~

I think that last long post belonged to Marie Curie.

31

lurk: 2007-01-24

Interesting theory and interesting points are made. I have no clue whatsoever the prophecy means but to stir a little in the discussion I would add some points that may be of interest in the discussion.

time is an issue (bf going back or not) Time factors are different in TAR and IIRC in mirror worlds (last I am not sure though)

The ogier are planning to open the book of translations (supposedly a way to mirror worlds) so maybe there is a connection, maybe not.

dawn shifts over the planet there is dawn on the planet at every moment of the day. )IIRC this was mentioned in some other thread too)SO traveling across the planet could have a day dawn twice but somehow this seems too easy.

nothing substancial but my 2cts ;)

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Marie Curie 7: 2007-01-24

terez:


*** I think that last long post belonged to Marie Curie. ***

Yeah, that was me.

lurk:

*** The ogier are planning to open the book of translations (supposedly a way to mirror worlds) so maybe there is a connection, maybe not. ***

Hmm. I think that we know the Book of Translation is going to take the Ogier to another world, not a mirror world per se:

----

TITLE: Knife of Dreams

CHAPTER: 9 - A Short Path

"The War of the Hundred Years was a human affair, and none of ours. The Shadow is our affair. When it is the Shadow that must be fought, our axes have always grown long handles. Perhaps in a year, or five, or ten, we will open the Book of Translation, but if we do it now, we cannot run away with any real hope of safety. Tarmon Gai'don is coming, and on that hangs the fate not only of this world, but of any world we might flee to. When fire threatens the trees, we do not run away and hope that the flames will not follow us. We fight. Now the Shadow is coming like wildfire, and we dare not run from it."


----

And we also know that the Ogier will return to Randland when the Wheel turns again:


----

TITLE: Knife of Dreams

CHAPTER: 9 - A Short Path

"If you insist," his mother said grudgingly, "but I want an early start come morning. I refuse to waste an hour more than I must. The Book of Translation must be opened as soon as possible." Loial jerked erect, aghast. "That's what the Great Stump is discussing? They can't do that, not now!" "We must leave this world eventually, so we can come to it when the Wheel turns," his mother said, striding to the nearest fireplace to spread her skirts again. "That is written. Now is exactly the right time, and the sooner the better."
----

33

dragonrider3: 2007-01-25

if a day dawns twice, it would mean time going backwards somehow wouldn't it?not just one or two people experiencing a shift backwards in time, but all of randland. how could that happen? i see only three choices here: the creator, the DO and the choedan kal but not enouh clues as to the how.

34

lordoftwilight: 2007-02-01

I dislike this part of what is said above since time moves forward in an ongoing loop with few variations and thus can't go backward but if it were to happen either the DO would make it night when he was winning Tarmon Giadon, or the Bowl of winds could possibly be used to control Day with a variation on the weave.

But still I believe that the meaning of the Second dawn is the Dawn of a new age aka the FOURTH AGE of the wheel. as in Dawn the beginning or rise of an advent.

Or a third option to for the once for moutning being the mornign of his daeth and once for birth, making the second dawn a metaphorical one, where the Dragon is born again in a New age when he is needed, or, being placed in another body or something of the like which has bee discussed before.

35

lurk: 2007-02-05

TITLE: Knife of Dreams

CHAPTER: 9 - A Short Path

"The War of the Hundred Years was a human affair, and none of ours. The Shadow is our affair. When it is the Shadow that must be fought, our axes have always grown long handles. Perhaps in a year, or five, or ten, we will open the Book of Translation, but if we do it now, we cannot run away with any real hope of safety. Tarmon Gai'don is coming, and on that hangs the fate not only of this world, but of any world we might flee to. When fire threatens the trees, we do not run away and hope that the flames will not follow us. We fight. Now the Shadow is coming like wildfire, and we dare not run from it."

Well we know that when the DO is free in this world he is free in other worlds, IIRC those are the mirror worlds so this quote would then support my remark about leving this world for a mirror worlds with the book of translations.

36

Ozymandias: 2007-02-05

I see terez has read Eddings : ). But as much as I hate to say it, I'm still in agreement with Callandor. There are a lot of ways in which this "second dawn" could be the result of the Dark One's doings, and not many ways in which it could logically be the result of a natural or mortally-induced occurence. However, I also think we should take this with a grain of salt. The example of the Sharom blowing up has been used as an example of a time when the Dark One blotted the sun as he broke free. This won't happen, mainly because in this case the Dark One is gradually wearing away at his prison, rather than breaking out in one massive orgy of destruction, and this gradual wearing away will not be nearly as cataclysmic as the first breakout, since its not all happening at once and the final breakout occurs through a weaker barrier.

37

Marie Curie 7: 2007-02-06

lurk:

***TITLE: Knife of Dreams, CHAPTER: 9 - A Short Path

"The War of the Hundred Years was a human affair, and none of ours. The Shadow is our affair. When it is the Shadow that must be fought, our axes have always grown long handles. Perhaps in a year, or five, or ten, we will open the Book of Translation, but if we do it now, we cannot run away with any real hope of safety. Tarmon Gai'don is coming, and on that hangs the fate not only of this world, but of any world we might flee to. When fire threatens the trees, we do not run away and hope that the flames will not follow us. We fight. Now the Shadow is coming like wildfire, and we dare not run from it.

Well we know that when the DO is free in this world he is free in other worlds, IIRC those are the mirror worlds so this quote would then support my remark about leving this world for a mirror worlds with the book of translations.***

Yes, if the Dark One is free in the world of Randland, he is free in all worlds. Verin discussed this with Egwene:

-----

TITLE: Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 21 - A World of Dreams

"Very good. But the Pattern may be even more complex than that, child. The Wheel weaves our lives to make the Pattern of an Age, but the Ages themselves are woven into the Age Lace, the Great Pattern. Who can know if this is even the tenth part of the weaving, though? Some in the Age of Legends apparently believe that there were still other worlds - even harder to reach than the worlds of the Portal Stones, if that can be believed - lying like this." She drew more lines, cross-hatching the first set. For a moment she stared at them. "The warp and the woof of the weave. Perhaps the Wheel of Time weaves a still greater Pattern from worlds." Straightening, she dusted her hands. "Well, that is neither here nor there. In all of these worlds, whatever their other variations, a few things are constant. One is that the Dark One is imprisoned in all of them."

In spite of herself, Egwene stepped closer to peer at the lines Verin had drawn. "In all of them? How can that be? Are you saying there is a Father of Lies for each world?" The thought of so many Dark Ones made her shiver.

"No, child. There is one Creator, who exists everywhere at once for all of these worlds. In the same way, there is only one Dark One, who also exists in all of these worlds at once. If he is freed from the prison the Creator made in one world, he is freed on all. So long as he is kept prisoner in one, he remains imprisoned on all."


"That does not seem to make sense," Egwene protested.

"Paradox, child. The Dark One is the embodiment of paradox and chaos, the destroyer of reason and logic, the breaker of balance, the unmaker of order."

-----

However, why would the Ogier go to the Mirror Worlds, as you have suggested? The Mirror Worlds are the "Worlds That Might Be" as Loial calls them:

-----

TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 16 - In the Mirror of Darkness

"Not here," Loial said slowly. "Obviously not here. 'From Stone to Stone run the lines of if, between the worlds that might be.' I've been thinking on it, and I believe I know what the 'the worlds that might be' are. Maybe I do. Worlds our world might have been if things had happened differently. Maybe that's why it is all so . . . washed-out looking. Because it's an 'if,' a 'maybe.' Just a shadow of the real world. In this world, I think, the Trollocs won. Maybe that's why we have not seen any villages or people."

-----

The Mirror Worlds are not real worlds. They are reflections of the real world, reflecting how things would have turned out if different choices had been made. But the quotes that deal with the Book of Translation don't say anything about mirror worlds. So, I think that the Ogier are thinking of traveling (translating, if you will) to another real world (i.e., another planet). Consider the way that this quote is worded:

----

TITLE: Knife of Dreams, CHAPTER: 19 - Vows

"If you insist," his mother said grudgingly, "but I want an early start come morning. I refuse to waste an hour more than I must. The Book of Translation must be opened as soon as possible." Loial jerked erect, aghast. "That's what the Great Stump is discussing? They can't do that, not now!" "We must leave this world eventually, so we can come to it when the Wheel turns," his mother said, striding to the nearest fireplace to spread her skirts again. "That is written. Now is exactly the right time, and the sooner the better."

----

It seems to me that from this, we can infer that in some Ages Ogier don't populate the world of Randland. So, at some point in time they will use the Book of Translation to take them to another real world, and when the appropriate Age comes again they will return back to Randland via the Book.

P.S. FYI, the quote that you cited from KoD and that I cited in my previous post is not in Ch. 9, A Short Path. It is in Ch. 19, Vows. The search engine has a whole bunch of incorrect chapter citations in KoD - a great many quotes are cited as from Ch. 9 when in fact they are not. I have encountered this problem many times, and I didn't catch the error in my previous post. I wish that part of the search engine was fixed!

38

Finwitch: 2007-02-08

Hmmm...

Personally, I believe this prophecy referring to when Rand cleanced the male half of the power.

His blood WAS wetting the rocks of Shayol Ghul when he did that - and drawing the ENTIRE One Power certainly called for enough light to call a dawn. Plus, the matter certainly freed MEN from the shadow.

It's done.

As for the others---

Twice and twice he will be marked, twice for life and twice for death. Once a Heron to set his path,

Twice a Heron to name him true.

Once a Dragon for remembrance lost,

twice a Dragon for the price he must pay.

- well, I suppose we know the MARKS... He got his *herons* while battling the Dark One - thus for Life in general. In addition, considering the heron-marked blade from Tam - I think this was for his foster parents.

The dragons, OTOH - the ones he got on one trip to Rhuidean - As for the Remembrance Lost - obviously what all Aiel Clan Chiefs have done. And this was for Death in the sense that it's for his dead mother he never knew in life; for the dead Jenns; for the act of violence which for Tuathan is death I think - again, it's death in *general*.

The Price he must pay. I suppose this refers to all the women who die for him -- the death of others in his service. And the pain he carries in his other wounds.

Anyway -- as for the Finn-truth: "To live you must die."

Consider the 'you'. It doesn't have to be you, Rand -- might as well be a passive you -- if not both.

Anyway, I see this as a matter of the mortality of life - Rand and anyone else for that matter. All things that live must die, also.

39

Marie Curie 7: 2007-02-10




Ozymandias:


*** There are a lot of ways in which this "second dawn" could be the result of the Dark One's doings, and not many ways in which it could logically be the result of a natural or mortally-induced occurence. However, I also think we should take this with a grain of salt. The example of the Sharom blowing up has been used as an example of a time when the Dark One blotted the sun as he broke free. This won't happen, mainly because in this case the Dark One is gradually wearing away at his prison, rather than breaking out in one massive orgy of destruction, and this gradual wearing away will not be nearly as cataclysmic as the first breakout, since its not all happening at once and the final breakout occurs through a weaker barrier. ***

I'm sure that you right and that when the final Seals are broken this time, the effect will not be exactly as it was when Bore was drilled. However, imagine what will happen if the final three Seals are broken all at once. It may be like a leaking dam - at first just a trickle of water comes through, but then all of sudden the dam gives way and water comes bursting through very rapidly. At that point, I think that it will be pretty darn cataclysmic. Not to mention that at that point, the Dark One will be able to touch the world with the same strength that he exhibited during the War of the Shadow.

Finwitch:

*** Personally, I believe this prophecy referring to when Rand cleanced the male half of the power.

His blood WAS wetting the rocks of Shayol Ghul when he did that - and drawing the ENTIRE One Power certainly called for enough light to call a dawn. Plus, the matter certainly freed MEN from the shadow. ***

The Cleansing took place at Shadar Logoth, not Shayol Ghul. So the blood on the rocks prophecy has yet to be fulfilled.

*** well, I suppose we know the MARKS... He got his *herons* while battling the Dark One - thus for Life in general. In addition, considering the heron-marked blade from Tam - I think this was for his foster parents. ***

Rand received the heron marks while battling Ishamael, not the Dark One. He got the first one during a confrontation with Ishamael in the Portal Stone world, to 'set his path' towards his eventual proclamation as the Dragon Reborn. And he got the second heron at Falme where he fought Ishamael in the sky for all to see.


40

lordoftwilight: 2007-02-12

Something just occured to me since the DO Seems to hate in an estreme permanent order and dispises the Creater, whom weems to be an equel just like the legend of Osiris whom Set his brother kills him (osiris=creator;set=DO) so eventually Isis in the legend bares Osiris a son Horus(Rand) who has to gain support form the other Gods(nations of Randland) to challenge Set and in the end wins and becomes the leader of the Gods. The important paralells here are Isis to Tiagrin, Horus to Rand, Set to the DO, and Osiris to the DO. Also I would like to point out, that in a couple of points in the series Rand is refered to mostly by Mesema as the son of the Creater. So in the end I suppose that the creater will probbably grant Rand more day without a night, but the sun will still dawn again so that the armies of the light can keep on winning. Even though he can't get directly involved this could be considering flirting with that line but he does this through Rands blood, such as when Horus's eye was tooken out by Set, and this eye will give the second dawn.

If this theory sonds skimpy go back and reread it a couple of times

41

JakOShadows: 2007-02-13

lordoftwilight:

That may be possible, but I have never known RJ to directly take a mythical story and follow it word for word like that. He always puts some subtle twist on it. So I think it is highly unlikely that it will happen that way.

42

Ozymandias: 2007-02-14

Also, take into account that when the Sharom "exploded" this was in no way the actual prison of the Dark One that was broken. I believe the Sharom was analagous to a modern day lab, though I'm not sure. Has anyone considered balefire? Rand could cement his victory over the Dark One at dawn. Dawn breaks. Moiraine or whoever balefires the random Trolloc or whatever that nailed Rand seconds earlier. Rand lives again. A cataclysmic event like that might well be enough to bring it back a few seconds to another dawn. Who knows.

Is Callandor gone? I haven't seen him in a while...

43

Marie Curie 7: 2007-02-14

lordoftwilight:

*** I suppose that the creater will probbably grant Rand more day without a night, but the sun will still dawn again so that the armies of the light can keep on winning. Even though he can't get directly involved this could be considering flirting with that line but he does this through Rands blood, such as when Horus's eye was tooken out by Set, and this eye will give the second dawn. ***

Sounds like the Creator directly intervening to me. And if we take the voice at the end of the Eye of the World to be the Creator, it appears from that he will not intervene. He's created the world, but humans are on their own to save it. From wotmania, here's what RJ said about the Creator at a book signing:

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Jordan has stated at a book-signing that people are expected to help themselves, not ask for the Creator to help them:

Another point he pressed was that "no one's going to rescue you", there are not going to be any miracles. The Creator shaped the world and set the rules, but does not interfere. Humankind messed things up, and have to fix it too, as well as finding the truth themselves

44

Marie Curie 7: 2007-02-20

ozymandias:
*** Also, take into account that when the Sharom "exploded" this was in no way the actual prison of the Dark One that was broken. I believe the Sharom was analagous to a modern day lab, though I'm not sure. ***

Yeah, the Sharom was a research center:

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TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time, CHAPTER: The Wheel and the Pattern

V'saine, among the major cities was best known as the home of the Collam Daan. The great university's silver and blue domes were bested only by the Sharom, a huge white sphere a thousand feet in diameter that floated serenely above it. Together, the Collam Daan and the Sharom were the world's foremost center for research and development.

The Sharom was one of the classic examples of functional beauty. It might seem impractical to suspend a building high in the air, especially a scientific research facility that required its visitors to use an airborne transport or the One Power, but the designers of Collam Daan did it simply because they could, and because the Sharom was a sky borne pearl that celebrated the triumph of their art.
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But the Sharom exploding isn't the point with regard to the "twice dawns" prophecy. The Sharom exploded only as a result of the drilling of the Bore. The shock waves that were felt were not due to the destruction of the Sharom but rather as a result of the breach in the Dark One's prison:

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TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time, CHAPTER: The Wheel and the Pattern

The resulting backlash destroyed the floating Sharom, shattering it like the egg it so resembled, and creating ripples in the fabric of reality as shock waves from the breach shook the pattern.It was not an indivisible source of the One Power the team had discovered, but the place outside the pattern where the Dark One had been imprisoned since the moment of creation. The emanations that Mierin and the others had sensed with such hope were his dark energies, trapped just beyond the thin place in the pattern that covered his prison. The hole they created has been ever after known as the Bore.
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And the darkness that engulfed the sun was due to the Dark One reaching out through the Bore to touch the world:

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TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 26 - The Dedicated

What seemed a tiny chip of white spun away from the Sharom in a jet of black fire; it descended, deceptively slow, insignificant. Then a hundred gouts spurted everywhere around the huge white sphere. The Sharom broke apart like an egg and began to drift down, falling, an obsidian inferno. Darkness spread across the sky, swallowing the sun in unnatural night, as if the light of those flames was blackness. People were screaming, screaming everywhere.
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*** Has anyone considered balefire? Rand could cement his victory over the Dark One at dawn. Dawn breaks. Moiraine or whoever balefires the random Trolloc or whatever that nailed Rand seconds earlier. Rand lives again. A cataclysmic event like that might well be enough to bring it back a few seconds to another dawn. Who knows. ***

Balefire does not work in the way that you suggest. Only things that the particular individual has had a direct role in are erased from the timeline:

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TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time, CHAPTER: The Wheel and the Pattern

This weapon was used liberally for a year by both sides - until they discovered its hidden cost. The searing energy of balefire did more than kill or destroy - it actually burned threads from the pattern. Anything destroyed this way actually ceased to exist before the moment of destruction, leaving only a memory of deeds no longer done and souls forever erased from the pattern. Not only that; whatever had been done because of those vanished actions also no longer had been done. The greater the power of the balefire, the further back in time its victim ceased to exist. During the year of unrestricted use, entire cities were burned from the pattern, and the world and its universe were threatened by the broken and loose threads. Reality itself was in danger of unraveling.
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If Rand was killed by a Trolloc and then the Trolloc were balefired back in time to before Rand was killed, then Rand would be alive again since the Trolloc's actions would be erased from the Pattern. However, unless the Trolloc's actions had caused the sun to rise, the dawn would not be affected.

*** Is Callandor gone? I haven't seen him in a while... ***

Yes, he's gone. Here's his announcement.

45

Chade: 2007-05-20

I think the hint may be in the title of the new book, "A memory of light"...

just a thought here but what if Rand dies the first time, losing, his blood spilt on the rocks at SG, but the Light uses some great force to rewind the day, but granting Rand the memory of the events, allowing him to replay and perhaps win the second time around...

"once for mourning, once for birth"

a simplistic idea considering the depth of other arguments here, and doesn't quite explain the "once for birth" part but an idea nonetheless...

perhaps the "once for birth", in this context, is merely for the birth of the world where the DO is unable to ever again break free...

Just an idea here...

46

Dragon Tamer: 2007-12-06

my theory is that after the battle, the new age comes and so it is "the dawn of a new day" as being new in the next age.