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he Seals and the Prison

by ReDragon: 2007-09-27 | 6.5 out of 10 (8 votes)

Recent Categories: How Will It End?

Okay heres my first full blown theory.

I haven't read all the theories, but in the relevant sections I haven't found this one, but if its there my apologies.

Basic principles;

The seals must all be broken

The prison holding the DO must be destroyed

A new prison must be constructed around the DO

Starting with the seals.

We know that the weakening seals are allowing the DO to touch the world more and more as more seals are broken. Witness the drought, ghosts, the thinning of the pattern allowing hallways to vanish like in the WT and Tear / Andor Caemlyn, the lessening of the ability of Saidar in keepings.

Title : Knife of Dream, Chapter : Honey in the Tea

"There was one thing she could do for them: comfort them. Impossible as it seemed at first, the interior of the Tower sometimes changed. People got lost trying to find rooms they had been to dozens of times. Women were seen walking out of walls, or into them, often in dresses of old-fashioned cut, sometimes in bizarre garb, dresses that seemed simply lengths of brightly colored cloth folded around the body, embroided ankle-length tabards worn over wide trousers, stranger things still. Egwene was able to discuss it with Siuan in Tel'aran'rhiod, so she knew that these things were signs of the approach of Tarmon Gai'don"

This also happened in Tear and Caemlyn. And also in the chapter before,

Title : Knife of Dreams, Chapter : Call to a Sitting

"It was as if Saidar was failing"

This is evidence of the DO touching the world with a freer hand as the 3 still whole seals are shaveable the last time we saw them, therefore their usefulness for their purpose must be erodeing.

The seals are a focus point for a "plug" if you like that LTT and the 113 companions sealed in the AoL. And the plug is weakening because 4 seals are broken and the rest are decaying as shown above.

Title: The strike at Shayol Ghul (Also in BWB)

"One of the plans for ending the war quickly, proposed by Lews Therin, centered around a direct attack on the Bore itself. Seven 'focus points' (there seems no better translation from the old tongue, although they are obviously the Seals of Legend) were constructed of cuendillar. A raiding force -- so they called it, though even in the light of recent past events it must still seem a large army to most people of this day -- a raiding force consisting of some twenty thousand soldiers to provide security and a circle of seven female Aes Sedai and six male (the minimum number believed necessary, and all the strongest who could be found) would Travel to Shayol Ghul , the one place on earth where what has been called 'a thinness in the Pattern" makes the Bore detectable, and there to implant seals held by the focus points which would close up the Bore and shut the Dark One from the world once more.

This plan was considered risky for a number of reasons. Even today it is known that the Dark One has a certain degree of effect on the world close around Shayol Ghul, and it was probable that any attempt to channel there would be instantly detected and the raiding party destroyed. Lews Therin himself, who intended to personally lead this huge raid, admitted that even with sucess, he expected few of the attackers to survive, perhaps none. Worse, several experts claimed that if the seals were not placed with exact precision, the resulting strain would, instead of sealing up the Bore, rip it open, freeing the Dark One completely.

So the sealing that was eventually put in place by LTT and the 113 male channerlers as a follows".

Title: The strike at Shayol Ghul (Also in BWB)

"Another plan at the time centered around two huge sa'angreal, one attuned to saidin and one to saidar, both so powerful that using them required special ter'angreal, like miniature versions of the great sa'angreal, constructed especially for the purpose of accessing the sa'angreal. This project had its detractors, too, for the sa'angreal were planned to be so powerful that either one might well provide enough of the One Power to destroy the world, while both together certainly would. Some doubted that so much of the One Power could be handled safely under the circumstances. Against that was the certainty, according to the plan's supporters, that used together they would provide sufficient Power to drive the Shadow's forces back, to defeat them completely and erect a barrier around Shayol Ghul until a safe method of dealing with the Bore was assured.

Detractors pointed out that the Bore had enlarged since it was first drilled, and behind the barricade erected by the sa'angreal it would continue to grow, so that eventually the Dark One might free himself within the barrier. The barrier might well contain the Dark One when all he could do was reach through the relatively small Bore, but could it hold back the Dark One let loose?

The hall of the Servants quickly divided into two camps, and those who favored one plan derided the other.

Support for the use of the great sa'angreal and opposition to attempting to implant the seals centered around a woman named Latra Posae Decume. Apparently a speaker of considerable force and persuasion, she gathered a large bloc around her, but what assured her victory was an agreement she reached with every female Aes Sedai of significant strength on the side of the Light. (In the manuscript, this agreement is called 'the Fateful Concord,' though it was doubtful that this was the name it was generally known.) Lews Therin's plan was too rash, too dangerous, and no woman who agreed to the Concord would take part in it. As precise placement of the seals was widely thought to require a circle, that apparently killed the plan, since men cannot create a circle, but can only be brought into one created by women. Work on the sa'angreal, in the form of two huge statues, was rushed forward."

There's more, but its common known history. Now, this means that the 'plug' plan was an act of desperation by the forces of the Light, and definitely not the best plan, which would involve resealing the prison perfectly. Or rebuilding the prison after it has been destroyed. Which brings us to the second part of the theory.

Title : Lord of Chaos, Chapter : Thorns

(A note from philosopher Herid Fel to Rand.)

"Belief and order give strength. Have to clear rubble before you can build. Will explain when see you next. Do not bring girl. Too pretty."

This note tells Rand that the prison has to be destroyed / cleared away. As you can't lay a foundation for a building without clearing trees/rocks/what ever where you want to build etc.

Now consider this.

Title : Lord of Chaos, Chapter : A New Arrival

"Lews Therin's voice came up like thunder. Break it break them all must break them must break them and strike quickly must strike now break it break it".

We know LTT wants to break the seals, even though it was his plan in the AoL. Now LTT may be mad, but he has moments of rational thought with Rand, and in his age he was considered a great intellect, though the Sealing was as has been stated an act of desperation, hampered more by the fact that they had no female support to link with to make their weavings stronger. LTT has had a while now in the back of Rands head to be mad in, but sometimes he must be rational to himself and this prison plan has been formed.

The note from Fel tells Rand the basic principles he needs. It was delivered after a longer conversation that makes more sense read after reading the note.

Title : Lord of Chaos, Chapter : A taste of solitude pgs 427-428 (pb)

"What about the question I posed you last time? Herid? Herid?

The stout man's head jerked up. "Oh. Yes. Ah, question. Last time. Tarmon Gai'don. Well, I don't know what it will be like. Trollocs, I suppose? Dreadlords? Yes. Dreadlords. But I have been thinking. It can't be the Last Battle. I don't think it can. Maybe every Age has a Last Battle. Or most of them." Suddenly he frowned down his nose at the pipe in his teeth, and began rummaging across the table "I have a tinderbox here somewhere."

"What do you mean it can't be the Last Battle?" Rand tried to keep his voice smooth. Herid always came to the point; you just had to prod him towards it.

" What? Yes, exactly the point. It can't be the Last Battle. Even if the Dragon Reborn seals the Dark One's prision again as well as the Creator made it. Which I don't think he can do." He leaned forward and lowered his voice conspiratorially." He isn't the Creator, you know, whatever they say in the streets. Still, it has to be sealed up again by somebody. The Wheel, you see."

"I don't see..." Rand trailed off.

"Yes you do. You'd make a good student." Snatching his pipe out, Herid drew a circle in the air with the stem. "The Wheel of Time. Ages come and go and come again as the Wheel turns. All the catechism." Suddenly he stabbed a point on that imaginary wheel. "here the Dark One's prison is whole. Here, they drilled a hole in it, and sealed it up again. "He moved the bit of the pipe along the arc he had drawn. "śhere we are. The seals are weakening. But that doesn't matter, of course. "The pipestem completed the circle." When the Wheel turns back to here, back to where they drilled the hole in the first place, the Dark One's prison has to be whole again."

" Why? Maybe the next time they'll drill through the patch. Maybe that's how they could do it the last time "drill into what the Creator made, I mean " maybe they drilled the Bore through a patch and we just didn't know."

Herid shook his head. For a moment he stared at his pipe, once more realizing it was unlit, and Rand thought he might have to recall him again, but instead Herid blinked and went on." Someone had to make it sometime. For the first time, that is. Unless you think the Creator made the Dark One's prison with a hole and patch to begin." His eyebrows waggled at the suggestion. "no, it was whole in the beginning, and I think it will be whole again when the Third Age comes once more. Hmmm. I wonder if they called it the Third Age?" He hastily dipped a pen and scribbled a note in the margins of an open book. " Umph. No matter now. I'm not saying the Dragon Reborn will be the one to make it whole, not in this Age necessarily anyway, but it must be so before the Third Age comes again, and enough time passed since it was made whole "an Age, at least "that no one remembers the Dark One or his prison. No one remembers. Um. I wonder..."He peered at his notes and scratched his head, then seemed startled to find he used the hand holding the pen. There was a smudge of ink in his hair. "Any Age where the seals weaken must remember the Dark One eventually, because they will have to face him and wall him up again."

SO.

1. We know about the seals being a 'plug'

2. We know that the prison has to be whole again in the age when the bore is first drilled

3. We don't think that man can equal the creators work

4. We don't know how Meirin could have drilled into the Bore if it was the Creators work

But we can say that since Mierin could drill into the prison it was possible that a)The prison was actually built by man or b)That the Creators work can be drilled into.

Either way this indicates that if someone can drill into something the Creator made, or that a man made prison can hold the DO for a few Ages. Than someone powerful enough should be able to reuild a prison that will hold the DO thru the turnings of the Wheel until the Age when the Bore is drilled again.

This means that the prison holding the DO must be Rebuilt.

I believe that the forces of Light will reach Shayol Ghul with at least one seal still intact, then Rand with smash the last seal and prepare for the DO's attack, which will probably happen on the instant, but he will be prepared. I also believe that he will be linked in a circle, and directing the flows, as he has experience being trapped in a box as we know from LOC and WH, will reconstruct the DO's prison resealing him in a perfect prison, until the Wheel turns and the Bore is drilled once more.

The Circle will include: Rand / Jahar / Damer / Logain / Karldin / Sandomere and Nynaeve / Cadsuane / Egwene / Elayne / Aviendha / Moiraine / Alivia

Angreals, Sa'Angreals, Ter'Angreals, Callandor, and the access key will also be involved.
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Comments

1

Tamyrlin: 2009-10-16

ReDragon - this theory is one of the oldest in the queue and for that I apologize, but I believe it remains relevant. I've always believed that Rand will find some way to fix the hole, but in such a way that a researcher in the Age of Legends will be able to detect it as a prime location to attempt to bore through to find the source of power on the other side. However, I think your theory has merit for discussion. Do you believe it is possible, if not likely, that Rand and company could repair the Pattern to its Thinness, after destroying all of the seals, thereby preventing the DO from touching the Pattern? Not that Fel doesn't have a great grasp on the situation, but the Thinness existed when Mierin found it. Unless the Creator built in the specific Thinness (which is possible), couldn't Mierin have found the previous fixing of the Pattern by the previous Third Age Dragon?

2

WinespringBrother: 2009-10-16

When Mierin detected the new power source, I think she detected the Dark One's attempts to break out of the prison, possibly knowing that there was someone on the other side of the wall advanced enough to notice and curious enough to help out his efforts. Or perhaps it took him 6 ages of effort to thin the pattern enough to be noticed by anyone on the other side. Then once he was resealed it took only 1 age to break through again.

3

Davian93: 2009-10-16

Too easy of an ending though the idea itself has good merit and sound principles.

The DO's prison isn't really a box but rather the Pattern itself. I think the sealing will have more to do with the presence of the 3 ta'veren's presence at Shayol Ghul.

4

lordoftwilight: 2009-10-19

Rand won't bring a new seal by channeling Saidin, or Saidar, first we know that Saidar is failling so this won't work. Second we know from Moghedien that the Dark One can directly affect the pattern at teh bore, as well as channeling the slightest would allert the Dark one to your pressence and instant abliteraton, so I think the work of the Ta'varen or the work of Rand's battle with Morridin, or through dying by throwing himself into the bore, like Aslan and the stone table in "Chronicle's of Narnia"

5

Chang: 2009-10-21

It's been a while since there has been a new theory. I think the idea has merits but as Davian says, the pattern itself is the dark one's prison since he exists outside of time. His purpose is to destroy the pattern and the pattern seeks to preserve itself by spinning out taveren.

6

Kolaz: 2009-10-29

Excuse me for any ignorance if this is wrong, but doesn't the DO even say that this will be THE Last Battle. In order for that to be true, wouldn't the DO have to be destroyed?

7

brother of Battles: 2009-10-29

The only way for this to be "THE" last battle is if the DO breaks free and reshapes the whole in his image. But I like the idea. We know that the bore and the thinness was unknown throughout most of the AoL, until the "other" power was detected and was tried to reach. No know felt the DO trying to break free then. Also, we know that sometime between the current age of the books (3rd i think) and the AOL mankind forgets how to channel and also "runs with the wolves." It would be easy to forget something when everything else you know has changed. With Technology on the move in the series, soon there won't be any channelers. I agree with ReDragon that the bore will be sealed to match the creators work. and lasting until the next AoL when again the DO will atempt to break free.

8

Rawlax: 2009-11-03

I don't see how the DO can be defeated via a channelling solution, all evidence given is that the DO is close to infinite in his power. I struggle to see how any of the lights forces short of the creator could command enough power to win in this manner.

I see the last battle as more of a choice to reject the Dark One. Or as a similarity to how you treat nightmares in TAR, if you ignore them and refuse to accept them as real then they go away.

9

Basel Gill: 2009-11-04

I was thinking the same thing. Like in the Hobbit when Bilbo "fights his real battle" in the tunnel trying to decide if he will go into Smaug's lair or not, I thought that the Last Battle could possibly be Rand's struggle to reject the DO...of course I have no support, just idle speculation.

10

Paaran Disen: 2009-11-06

I think Rand will use the True Power to shut up the DO, as the TP is the darkone himself, so he cant taint it.

11

lnseth: 2009-11-17

The same thought came to me as soon as I read about Rand channeling the True Power. It would be the perfect counter to another tainting backlash. It brings to mind the question of whether or not one CAN use the True Power against the Dark One, though. He has demonstrated the ability to remove access to the True Power among his followers, by limiting said access to Moridin.

12

Vexorian: 2009-11-18

I agree that the prison needs to be fixed completely again... But I think tht on how it will be done is that Callandor will be used in a circle of three... Because Cadsuane said that is the only way Callandor can be used in full force. Also the three will be Rand a woman and a male. In it the man will wield saidin, the female saidar, and Rand will wield the True Power. Using all three they will seal the prison to its original state. My proof being from the KC "he shall hold a blade of light in his hand and the three shall be one".

13

DarkStar420: 2009-11-19



not to sound stupid, but what do you mean by referencing BWB

14

matbloodycauthon: 2009-11-20

Is it possible that Rand can weaken the Dark one by drawing huge amounts of the true Power and win that way?

15

iSynic: 2009-11-23

Spoiler from The Gathering Storm: In The Gathering Storm, Lews Therin says that saidin was tainted because in order to seal the prison something has to touch him. It seems unlikely (and equally unimportant) that the True Power might be tainted in the same way. Rand may decide to touch the True Power to the Dark One and seal him away with his own power. /shrug Since I suspect Rand is channeling the True Power via his link with Moridin, won't it be interesting if Moridin starts seeing Rand/Perrin/Matt in a whirl of colors when he thinks of them? Also, is the lack of positive Ta'veren effects around Rand is due to Moridin's connection?

16

Clyve: 2009-11-24

I like the idea of Rand using the True Source on the DO, i was intrigued by that all during TGS. And we can obvioulsy rule out the use of the choedan kal now since both are destroyed.

17

Dragons Shadow: 2009-11-24

I like the idea of Rand using Callandor to seal the prison. using all three powers as one. Perhaps the "flaw" in Callandor is not a flaw but an intentional magnifier for the true power.

18

Lauric: 2009-11-26

"He shall hold a blade of light in his hand and the three shall be one" I really don't believe this refers to three people using Callandor. (TPoD,Ch27) "'It [Callandor] is flawed,' she replied curtly, 'lacking the buffer that makes other sa'angreal safe to use. And it apparently magnifies the taint, inducing wildness of the mind. So long as a man is using it, anyway. The only safe way for you to use The Sword That Is Not a Sword, the only way to use it without risk of killing yourself, of trying to do the Light alone knows what insanity, is linked with two women, and one of them guiding the flows." With the Taint cleansed from Saidin (Which it obviously must be, since the taint is not there in the AoL before the Strike. There are those who believe its not entirely clean) The only reason for a Ring to use Saidin is to avoid drawing too much and burning yourself out ('lacking the buffer that makes other Sa'Angreal safe to use.'), but that can be done with only two people now, since forming a Ring creates a buffer much like that on Angreal/Sa'Angreal, and you can form a ring with one male and one female (i.e. Sammael + Grandael) (ACoS, Ch20) "Graendal maintained the Mask of Mirros that hid her true form, but Sammael had dropped his, golden-bearded again and just head and shoudlers taller than she. He had let the link between them dissolve, too. The watcher wondered whether that was wise, under the circumstances." That being said, I'm torn between two things that this could be referring to. Rand -> Mat -> Perrin (The Three Ta'Varen, and one of two significant groups of Three) The three shall be as one could be referring to the necessity of them fighting together as 'One' vs the DO, needing all three Ta'Varen to build a new prison. Elayne -> Aviendha -> Min (The three part reincarnation of Ilyena's Soul. Don't hijack this theory to debunk this one, i'm working on a fully fleshed theory) The three shall be as one could be referring to many things regarding these three, though much like the Rand Mat Perrin connection, I think it's going to be something requiring them to be together during, if not particular AT, Tarmon Gaidon.

19

deil: 2009-11-27

Not bloody likely

20

Kizur: 2009-11-28

I think that is actually pretty close. I do have some parts to add as well though. First, I think the final battle is not a "defense" battle where humanity is sitting at their walls watching the Trolloc hordes charge. I think that the Final Battle will be good attacking evil at its stronghold (Shayol Ghul) with the forces of the Shadow defending. I think that the Aiel will need to be at the center of the battle, near the Bore itself and that the time in the three-fold land was to train them to be able to fight their way to the middle and survive long enough for the prison to be rebuilt. I think that the Tinkers and the Song will be the reason that the Aiel need to be there. My thoughts go this way because of two things: 1. The song of growing (which was witnessed by Rand in his Rhuidean flashbacks help make things grow) 2. The Ways, were "grown" with the help of the One Power just after the bore was sealed and before the full effects of the taint were realized. I also believe that his "blood on the rocks on Shayol Ghul" has been misinterpreted to mean Rand's death, when I think it might mean the Aiel themselves must be on the rocks to "sing" the growth song and regrow the dark ones prison, with the assistance of the One Power, channelled as described in the original post, similarly to how the Ways were grown. This would explain also how the Aiel seem to be so important to Tarmon Gaidon and how a remnant of a remnant would be left.

21

messengeroflight: 2009-12-03

I started an account because of the comments left from this theory that I just had to add too...I'm not even sure if I am doing this right. In regards to the seals. I believe that they have to be broken, not replaced. It is stated so in book 12 that they have to be broken and I think the reason behind that is so the DO can enter the "real world." If Rand and party were to break all the seals then the dark one will bust through and it is at this time, when the DO is no longer trapped OUTSIDE the pattern, that Rand will be able to destroy him. And I think that Alivia has to be one of the two women to link with Callandor, maybe that will have something to do with her helping Rand die...its Alivia that helps Rand die right?

22

Matrim Charin: 2009-12-10

Rand will channel, all right. the True Power. the fact that only the nae'blis, and only then with the DO's direct consent, may channel this power, which comes from the DO himself, supports the notion that moridin and rand have been deviously linked in some way. perhaps ishamael's theories about past iterations of LTT submitting to the DO and becoming nae'blis hold water. perhaps moridin is an incarnate admixture of elan morin tedronai and enough old LTT residue (gleaned and purified in similar fashion to what was done with padan fain) to have forged a link with rand. hence the face-merging visions/dreams, and rand's ability to channel TTP. i believe that the "physics" behind the cleansing of saidin also hold clues as to how rand will seal away the DO. and, i'm sorry, but the DO's prison is the pattern itself. if the "prison" were destroyed entire, the DO would insta-win.

23

PillowFriends: 2009-12-14

Does anyone think Rand and company might attempt to destroy the DO permanently, instead of just trying to seal him back into the prison? To me, Herid's belief that there had to be a beginning (a time when the prison was first made) is a hint that we may see an ending, or that one is at least possible. Brandon Sanderson said in his blog that it was a possibility that the DO could break free, destroy the Wheel, ... If that's possible, I'd think it's also possible for the forces of Light to find a way to completely destroy the DO, removing the need for the Pattern and allowing man the right to free will.

24

Waxer: 2009-12-20

Think that Rand can use the True Power because he and Moridin are connected.

25

Robthewretched: 2009-12-25

All good... except the Dark One will be completely destroyed. Padan Fain will be the imprisoned in the Ways or some other dimension and left to fester for a few Ages only to become the Dark One of the future. Padan Fain is the Dark One but not yet! A beginning.

26

volker: 2010-01-01

I find Rand channeling the TP against the DO very unlikely. All indications from the forsaken are that the DO has a firm grasp over who can use the TP when (i.e. just Morridin now). Likely the DO granted Rand access to the TP, knowing he would be blocked from the OP and knowing he would be desperate enough to resort to it. It was a perfect trap to get the dragon to use the TP and turn (at least until the end of tGS) into a creature of the shadow himself, which is exactly what the DO wants. I don't see the DO wanting Rand to destroy or imprison him, so I don't see the DO letting Rand use the TP against him.

27

aviendha169: 2010-01-06

response to Basel Gill: I think you're on the right track with how its about rands internal struggle - but i don't think so much a struggle not to join the DO, but more to start trusting the Aes Sedai. This idea seemed to be supported by Gathering Storm a lot, with Lews Therin talking to Rand - both saidar and saidin will have to be used in order to successfully seal away the dark one, and also because the prophecies make such a big deal about callandor, but it can only be used properly in a circle of both males and females. but as of Gathering Storm, Rand was still all hard inside and didnt trust any of the aes sedai - but i think that will change in the future, because for one thing he has that epiphany at the end of the book that hes been on the wrong track all along, and also because mats going to bring back moiraine, who was the only one he really trusted. even so, there will still be the question at the final battle - will rand trust nyneave and moiraine (i reckon those two are the most likely for him to form the circle with) enough to do it in the final battle? The answer will have to be yes in the end, but it will take some time for rand to reach that stage and this will make the story interesting

28

PillowFriends: 2010-01-07

For those who say the Pattern is the DO's prison, that does make a certain amount of sense. However, I've always seen it the other way. To me, the DO is unencumbered by the weaving of the Pattern and space / time itself. Doesn't sound like a prison to me. The Pattern is more like a wall or barrier to protect humanity. Who knows, maybe the DO controls other worlds in this story's universe, but this particular planet is protected by the Wheel and the Pattern. My other take I have on this is that The Wheel, via the Pattern, bends the will of man to suit its needs and is therefore a prison to humanity. It's destruction could be a good thing!

29

vanyel611: 2010-01-07

I think that perhaps Rand will use the True Source to patch up the bore...Last time when they used Saidin the DO slapped the taint on it. That is why the link between him and Ishy is so vital: it is through that link that Rand can draw the TS which he could then use to patch the bore.

30

subwoofer: 2010-01-09

Well, first off, I was always under the impression that the DO prison was outside the Pattern as the DO is outside the Pattern. Secondly... Saidar is failing? When did that happen? As to the rest, yest everything has to be cleared away. The Seals are tainted, broken and otherwise useless. Maybe Eggy, who can make Cuendillar will either show Rand that new Seals are possible or will just make them for him. I look at it like renoing my house. I can either try to bugger around and deal with previous owner's messes or I can strip things down to the bare studs and start fresh. It is more work at the outset, but easier to frame, deal with electrical and plumbing etc as opposed to dealing with another person's problems and mistakes. Woof™.

31

manenshadar: 2010-01-10

Rand will not "patch the bore" or re-imprison the dark one. The only way these books will end is with the True Source being turned completely against the Dark One somehow (I would assume Rand) and his destruction. I have a strong feeling that he will have to destroy the dark one and the result/ only possible way this will be accomplished to to destroy the pattern, everything and everyone in every time, in order to be given the power to remake the world sans dark one. refer to SPAWN issues 162 and 163 if you want my take on this theory specifically as told through another medium. Rebirth can only happen through destruction. The wheel is a circle of life and death, the dark one seeks to destroy it to remake it in HIS own manner, the dragon must seek to destroy it in order to save it from the dark one. One is a selfish action, one is selfless. a cypher.

32

kkslider89: 2010-01-11

"He shall hold a blade of light in his hand and the three shall be one" I have to agree with Dragons Shadow I think that the 3 will be one refers to the saidin, saidar and the dark ones power becoming one as Rand channels all 3 through his circle and Callandor.

33

michaeldracon: 2010-01-12

interesting. i'm leaning towards kkslider89's view on this one. the 3 as one COULD mean saidar, saidin and the TP to be used against the dark one. And that would indeed mean one female (saidar), one male (saidin) and rand (for the TP). Cadsuane assumes that it simply means that 3 must link to use callandor; she can't figure out the final key to the puzzle. of course, she wouldn't. how could she even dream that Rand would be able to draw on the True Power. for all we know, she doesn't even KNOW about the TP. Min, though, seems to have caught on that there's more to the prophesy than rand linking with female channelers. i wonder if rand already told her that he channeled the TP.

34

mike727: 2010-01-15

Ok, this is my first time here, so bare with me on the rambling. This just dawned me today, mostly because I forgot one crucial element. I think we have to look at the bonding of three in more than one way. We all know that tp wield Callendar one needs a circle of three, two women and a man. I really like the idea of the three powers, especially after reading The Gathering Storm. Well Rand will be the man, and the True Power. I will leave out a guess to who the woman will be, as there are too many choices(ok, Moiraine) who will contribute saidar. Now, will Rand also contribute Saidin, or will we see the female saidin channeler from the rebel Aes Sedai camp? I believe Logain will play a major role, as a hero in the battle, but I believe he's meant to keep us, and the major players in the story, from devining the outcome. Just my ramblings.

35

michaeldracon: 2010-01-17

mike727, cadsuane said that it's 2 girls and 1 guy to weild callandor. but i'm open to the possibility that she's wrong, and that it could work also with one female, one male and the dragon reborn. moiraine would be a good candidate for saidar (although, you're right, there are a LOT of options). for saidin, i'd go for Logain. This would jive well with Min's viewings of "glory" for Logain.

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remotemana: 2010-01-17

All of you have really valid statements. I believe in the theory that because callandor as no buffer that it's use was intended to unite the three separate powers. But we mustn't forget the Saidin and Saidar are of the same force. Its separate halves being manipulated by its respective genders. Wouldn't it make sense that those combined together would stand as a single piece to the three become one in the use of callandor? as many factions of become two into one. There is an overlaying pattern. Rand and Lews Therin become as one on the slopes of Dragonmount, Perrin is still struggling with his own acceptance of his two parts. Wolf and Human. Mat has already met his combination, he has the memories of all of the battle generals and soldiers. The tower has been united from its two opposing factions. Nations have, will and are going unite under one figure. the Tua'Thon are searching to unite with their long lost song. The aiel seek to unite with there unrealized purpose. Throught out the book many things have become united. I think that therein that pattern lies the key. Saidin and Saidar as one. The TP through Ishmael and the magic of those others. Meaning the Ogrier and the tinkers and the aiel,hmmm i guess the things that cant be explained by the one power would stand as the third thing. It seems possible that these things can be united, as represented when Min, Aviendha and Elayne become that Aiel sister bond,this also shown by the warder bond. I believe that somewhere in that lies the key to uniting for the battle with the DO. But i have another sickening inkling that i fear to say. If Rand does succeed in uniting the three for callandor [whatever they may be] and he succeed in either, killing the DO, or sealing him up..whatever... isn't there the possibility that the world will cease to know the one power? I know the argument that could disprove this. that when the 100 companions did it, the power wasn't taken from the world. But WAIT, by the tainting of Saidin, essentially part of the power was taken from the world. it was there but feared and tainted. Now wouldn't it stand to say that in the uniqueness of callandor that rand does something else entirely, that he turns the power in on its self and destroys it? as he did with the chodean kal. Rand has the potential to completely rid the world of the one power. the cleansing that he has to do, now complete. Well, those are just a few of my random thoughts, i'd like to know what you guys think. sincerely Remotemana

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michaeldracon: 2010-01-19

remoteman, interesting possibility you raise there about the One Power being gone. why not? if the DO is expelled, killed or fully imprisoned somehow, the Pattern might balance itself by removing (or hiding) all traces of the One Power. If the end of Tarmon Gaidon is the beginning of a new Age, maybe that new Age will be defined as a world without the One Power. After all, in all 7 Ages of the Wheel, it would be reasonable to assume that some of those ages have no knowledge of, or access to, the One Power (just like OUR Age). so why can't it be the 4th Age? although, that would suck for all our beloved characters. Most powerful channelers in recent history one moment, normal human beings the next. bummer.:p

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PillowFriends: 2010-01-21

*** cadsuane said that it's 2 girls and 1 guy to weild callandor. *** michaeldracon, I could just have a bad memory, but I don't remember reading that Cadsuane every said it had to be two women and one man. What I remember is that Rand perceived what she said that way because he thinks Cadsuane (well, all Aes Sedai) wants to control him.

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PillowFriends: 2010-01-21

*** All indications from the forsaken are that the DO has a firm grasp over who can use the TP when (i.e. just Morridin now). Likely the DO granted Rand access to the TP ... I don't see the DO letting Rand use the TP against him. *** Volker, I suggest the link between Rand and Morridin could be something unexpected and unintended by the DO. If so, and if the DO sensed Rand channeling the TP, I can imagine the DO sitting behind the bore thinking to himself, "Oh sh_t!". : )

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michaeldracon: 2010-01-21

Pillowfriends, you may be right about the callandor thing. i'd have to read it again.
But I have doubts as to whether the DO purposely let Rand use te TP. I would understand if Semirgage was going to kill Rand; then the DO would have been mad at Semirhage for ruining His plans of keeping the Dragon Reborn alive. But Semirhage was doing what the DO wanted. She captured Rand, and even controlled him with a dominion band. For all intents and purposes, the DO already won, since Rand would be brought to him, leashed and controlled. Semiraghe was trying to kill Min... i doubt the DO would be too concerned about the effect of Min's death would have on Rand's mental stability -- if anything, a fully depressed and demoralized Rand would be even better for the DO.
I think that Rand was able to tap into the TP without the DO's consent (whether it was because of Rand's link with Moridin, or Rand's being the ultimate ta'veren, i'm not sure). Whether Rand would be able to tap into it again, only the later books will show.

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messengeroflight: 2010-01-29

I am very interested in Rand using the TP. I think that the link between Moridin has something to do with it but I also want to remind people of Rand's emotions when he reached the TP. He was certain he would have killed Min and totally hopeless. It was in this time that he lost hope that he touched an amazing power...This moment reminded me of when LT broke down after killing the ones he loved. I pose the theory that only the skilled who reach an extreme period in their mind can tap into the source. That might also explain the bright beam of light that LT had when he created Dragon Mt. On and I have to say that there will still be the OP if the DO is killed or imprisoned. It was there before they found out about him and it will remain when he is gone.

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j0shle0: 2010-02-02

This may be on the site somewhere else, but has anyone considered that Cadsuane may have never held the oath rod?

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bruth23: 2010-02-04

She has the ageless face, so yes she has held the oath rod

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TheOz: 2010-02-04

Hey guys First post so dont slate me :P Well we know for a fact Jordan intended for the wheel to keep spinning after the Final battle. But for the people that think the DO will be killed. I was in the firm belief that this would be The final battle and that somehow rand would destroy the DO but (Im not using direct quotes here), rand when hes on dragonmount could of unraveled the wheel but didnt because he realises if the wheel spins people get a second chance. So if Jordan didnt want rand unraveling the pattern then i doubt he would wait till later to do it then. As well as the to live you must die althrough there is alot of theories im still betting on the whole respinning out so its gotta keep going round! Though wouldnt it be interesting if the wheel got remade or broken I like the theories about using the tp and the other powers with Callander pretty interesting stuff :) but got a point to raise. If the seals are broken then the world is not auto doomed as people have suggested :P im pretty sure everyone got on (to some extent) in the time between the bore being drilled and then filled. And another thing :P (i feel like columbo) if the dark ones done this a million times with a million different dragons. Then why on earth cant he win! If someone gets beat the same way at chess time and time again eventually hes going to find a way to beat it ! P.s I love WOT

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messengeroflight: 2010-02-05

I was thinking the same thing mainly because of extremely long life and then when she used the power on Tam it got me thinking...The three oaths prevent Aes Sedai from using the power as a weapon but you repeatedly read of cases where people get thumped on the rear with air. I would think that beatings, if taken too far, would lead to serious harm and so me considered a weapon. Physically lifting Tam off the ground is something I would consider dangerous as well as an abuse of power (and I love how Tam was a total BA and calm about it when he called her out on it).

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Skeptik: 2010-02-07

Regarding the possibility that the DO will be destroyed, I can't help but think that RJ hangs the entire story on the symbol of the Aes Sedai, the yin-yang, balance. Balance between male & female, saidin and saidar, good and evil. I don't think RJ's WoT universe holds together if you rip Evil out of the Pattern and leave Good without a balancing factor. Remember the Ta'verin effect surrounding Rand- a good outcome of chance to balance a bad one and vice-versa. Balance, and the restoration of it, is the crux of the WoT universe. For that reason alone I lean towards a re-imprisoning of the DO to restore balance.

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PillowFriends: 2010-02-08

"But I can promise that just because he has failed in the past doesn't mean he will fail again. This series could end with the Dark One breaking the Wheel and destroying the Pattern. That is what is at stake." This is from Brandon Sanderson's blog, June 12th, 2009. Perhaps this series will end with the DO sealed back behind his wall, but it's not a foregone conclusion. Moreoever, the Gathering Storm states that Rand has been considering the possibility of completely destroying the DO. This is the only time that's been mentioned from what I can remember. Everything previously focused around resealing the bore. I think that's a clue that this turning of the Wheel will be unique.

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michaeldracon: 2010-02-11

Skeptik,i agree completelty. there must always be a balance. I can't imagine the DO being destroyed, without anything to take it's place. I'm also leaning towards the DO being imprisoned one way or another (probably in a perfect cage this time). But if he does get destroyed, how's this for a crazy idea: Rand destroys DO with the TP. Rand holds on to TP and realizes he has to do something with it. Rand gathers the TP and locks it outside of the Pattern. Over the Ages, the TP eventually evolves into the DO again.

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MatOdin: 2010-02-21

But the True Power is tainted in its own way. Ba'alzamon became addicted to it. It is just as possible Rand would be unable to stop.

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drisco: 2010-02-26

People! This talk of Rand weilding the TP is madness! You are like a bunch of Boromirs drueling over the ring of power. (no offense, actually the theories I've been reading here are very good) Going back to the Aes Sedai symbol, on the one side you have the Creator from whence springs the TS and on the other side you've got the DO from whence spring the TP. The TP is the taint on Saidin. The DO did not purposefully taint saidin, the mere act of touching the DO with saidin caused the taint. The DO wants Rand to use the TP because when Rand uses it he becomes infected with the DO. OK NEW THEORY! Rand uses so much of the TP that he draws the DO completely inside himself and Rand, Alivia and Moiraine use Callandor to kill Rand and the DO within.

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messengeroflight: 2010-02-26

Question...When Rand touched the TP Lewis TT reacted in a strange way. Could it be that when he went crazy and eventually created DM he could have accessed the TP? Why else have the response that he did? I think he said something to the effect of "Better to have died" or something like that.

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drisco: 2010-03-01

I don't think it would be possible for anyone to access the TP with the DO sealed in his prison.

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drisco: 2010-03-02

Ok. So I had some time to think about this. The DO, the TP and the taint on saidin are all part of the same thing. Kind of like a father, son and holy ghost trinity of evil. A channeller can "draw" the OP, can "hold" the OP but however much they draw or hold or channel there is always more and it never runs out. That is becuase the TS is infinite. Question: Is the TP infinite? Is the DO infinite? If he is then he'll be pretty tough to kill and the best we could hope for is that Rand et al can find some way to stuff him back into his prison after all of the seals are destroyed and re-seal him. But if the DO is finite and the TP is finite, it may be possible for a channeller of sufficient strength to draw ALL of the TP and hold it within himself without channelling it for a certain amount of time. At that point the channeller (Rand) would have to be killed with balefire to burn the DO out of existence. A clever trap - probably won't go down that way but it's the only way that I can see defeating the DO forever. Good luck forces of light!

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LobsterMan2: 2010-03-07

Maybe LTT uses the one power, while Rand uses the true power? Also I dont think LTT could have used the true power before because that would destroy the link that Rand has to Moridin in theory. Also the DO should have been able to detect LTT using the TP and then anticipated Rand's usage?

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messengeroflight: 2010-03-19

So does anyone have an idea to LTT's reaction to Rand using the TP? "Better that we die" or something to that extent was what he said. That seems pretty heavy.

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Davian93: 2010-03-30

I think, and this is a pet theory of mine, that the entire Semirhage escape plot was a plan by Moridin and the SH to get Rand to use the True Power. There will be lasting consequences from that usage. As it was, it nearly pushed Rand over the edge in the novel. This was clearly evident in his interactions after that event. At worst, I think it was a solid Plan B for the entire incident. Either Rand is captured and neutralized or Rand is forever tainted by the True Power. Personally, when you think about the punishment aspect of it (Semi broke and showed weakness...an unforgivable sin on top of her original disobedience that led to Rand's lost hand). It makes complete sense to me that the DO would use her as a pawn to push the Fisher King in a direction he wanted. She was a worthy sacrifice in that respect.

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sasarrn: 2010-04-01

i want to bring up rands wounds the first one he got in falme and the 2nd he got from paden fain. they are described as 2 evils yet different. this got me to thinking about fain and the DO they are both evil but different. now u have fain starting to gain some abilitys in causing pain with a touch and able to force the DO creatures to do what he wants. i believe that fain is going to become the new dark one. this maintains the balance of good and evil while allowing rand to destroy the DO. there is still a lot of flaws in my thoughts but i believe they could be worked threw

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yrag: 2010-04-06

I really think we need to look at what is Tarmon Gaidon. Everyone seems to think it will be some great battle or series of battles and that it will culminate in Rand / Lews Therin fighting some duel with the Dark Lord. I don't believe that is the case. There may be some great battles, but I believe there will be more. I'm not sure there is actually a "Dark Lord". I believe there is the Dark/ True Power that corrupts everyone it touches and that the Forsaken, the Trollacs, etc. are just an outgrowth of exposure to this Dark/True Power. Rand must defeat or negate the Dark/True Power and he will do this by using Callandor and women who can channel to combine Saidin, Saidar, and the Dark/True Power into one Power which is probably what originally existed at the beginning. Saidar + Saidin = Dark/True Power. When the female Aes Sedai would not help Lews Therin with his original plan, he made the mistake of thinking he could negate the Dark/True Power using Saidin alone. That's how Saidin got "tainted" in the first place. I believe the seals on the Dark Powers prison were a backup measure after Lews Therin's original failure. The best clue for this theory is in "The Gathering Storm" (Page 742) when Min is discussing with Cadsuane the "Commentary on the Dragon" by Sajius and Min quotes, "He shall hold a blade of light in his hands, and the three shall be one". The three are Saidar, Saidin and the Dark/True Power and the blade of light is Callandor. Since Rand can now also channel the True/Dark Source as well as Saidin, he will be able to combine all three with the help of the female Aes Sedai. When this is done, it might be possible that no one can channel the one Combined Power.

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Davian93: 2010-04-08

****I'm not sure there is actually a "Dark Lord". **** Not sure if serious. He has spoken on-screen in the books on a couple occasions. How could you possibly believe he's not real? He gives orders, he runs things, he reincarnates bad guys. He's an actual being, just like the Creator. His power flows from him...it isn't him.

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RealWorldRand: 2010-04-13

Most of us are forgetting here that Rand must die. Also taking note of how RJ has made al'Thor up to be our "savior" figure, it might be safe to assume he is going to die in the process of eliminating the DO once and for all. I do like the theories out there of Fain becoming the new embodiment of Evil, however. There must be balance and I don't think RJ would allow such a boring World as one completely utopian in nature without some sense of good vs. evil. So this does kind of lead to one thinking that the DO will be destroyed by al'Thor sacrificing himself with the help of our former damane Alivia. As to how it will be done? I think there is much to be said of the Dragon merging with the DO in such a way as to render him defenseless and able to be destroyed. I do like the idea of al'Thor taking the DO into himself somehow using the TP. Why else would he be able to wield it anyways? There is more to it than Semirhage's demise and Rand's emo problems, I'm sure of it.

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Stormwalker03: 2010-04-14

Ah, but I disagree. The Books tell us his blood must be spilt upon the rocks of Shyol Ghul, but not that he must perish in the doing so. There is a line, I forget where, that speaks of two fighting, and only one will survive. I have a feeling that Moridin and Rand have something in common with Voldemort and Harry Potter in this respect. When Ishamael fought Rand in the air above Ebou Dar, I think their souls meshed and merged. For a brief period of time, Rand was dead. I think, clinically. For that short bit, both were dead, their souls may have mixed. Or, failing that theory, their POWERS may have mixed. If both Moridin and Rand are two halves, it could be that Moridin is the one who must/will die of the two.

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Waxer: 2010-04-21

Think you ment Falme on Toman Head

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RedEagle: 2010-04-22

1st time poster so take it easy please :) Is it possible that the wound on rands side could be the link he has with moridin? seeing as moridin did cause the wound in the 1st place,as ishmael of course. any thoughts on this???

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Ozymandias: 2010-04-25

RedEage, I think its been pretty definitely established that the crossing balefire streams from Shadar Logoth is the reason for Rand and Moridin's special connection.

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Zifnab: 2010-07-12

I have always thought that the prison is made of the OP and that Rand and Co. will have to create a siphon that will pull the "free" power to make the prison to seal in the DO.

The reason I say this is that at some point in the turning of the wheel, there must be an age where evil exists, but channeling doesn't (the Age we are in right now) and then later an age where evil does not exist, but channeling does (AOL).

So if the OP is being used up to seal the DO, channeling would disapear, or at least become less and less until it is a myth and then evil would eventually go away as the "walls" of the prison get thicker.

Then at some point, channeling is rediscovered and the walls start getting thinner again until the DO can be sensed....bore hole....etc.

The siphon idea was already used at the cleansing of the taint, so that might have been a forshadowing as well.

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humite: 2012-10-07

I have always thought of the Bore as something to be healed, not fixed or patched or rebuilt.

I think that was Lews Therin's problem is that he tried to fix it as if it were a brick and mortar prison. But if the prison were more organic in nature (and no I don't mean in any way alive per se) Then the Bore is something like a wound and Lews Therin's seals are no different than plugging a knife wound with plaster of paris. It'll keep the hole closed and keep you from bleeding to death but as long as that plaster plug is there, the wound can never actually heal.

I think the seals have actually worked in the DO's favor the past 3000 years due to the fact that, if the seals truly closed his prison off from the world again - however temporarily - he would not have been able to influence the world during the 3rd age at all. But he has had influence all along. The seals hindered him but have never kept him totally sealed off from the world as the prison prior to the Bore did.

This is evidenced by the fact that for 3000 years, fades, trollocs and other shadowspawn have still been connected to the DO in some way, Ishamael has still been able to channel the true power and coordinate the worldwide network of dark friends.

I personally believe (and this is a complete tangent) that Aginor was never quite as successful in creating life as he believed and that it was the DO's direct intervention that turned what would have been considered another batch of failed experiments, into the army of darkness the shadow needed - complete with a crop of unintended generals for that army being born from the army itself to everyone's surprise (the fades). Fades really are entirely too implausible to be an accident. I only digress here so that I can state I believe when the DO is truly sealed off again and the prison is whole, that we wont have shadowspawn.

I can almost envision all fades around the world dropping like puppets with their strings cut and all trollocs connected to them doing their wailing and twitching thing or reverting to the mostly wild animal abominations that were Aginor's actual creation - possibly to the extent they drop weapons, no longer knowing how to use them and just behave like viscious wild animals attacking each other as much as anyone else.

In any event, if the Bore is a wound trying to heal itself, then that process as much as anything else is contributing to the crumbling of the seals - seals that are not a problem for the DO as they work as much for him as having direct access does.

But, if you break the seals, and happen to have a miracle healer who stands a chance at figuring out how to heal something like the Bore (Nyneave) then you wouldn't be trying to duplicate the creator's work like Lews Therin did, you'd be assisting in the natural process of healing the damage done TO the creator's work (something Aes Sedai do everytime they heal someone).

There is the problem of something having to touch the DO, which caused the taint, but it occurred to me that Rand has the ability to use the True Power and it's possible the DO is not aware of this or cannot prevent it and Rand has memories of having seen how healing is woven using the True Power when Elan morin temporarily healed his madness using the true power.

So to be honest, I do not believe this is how it will play out, but all the pieces exist to make this a plausible outcome: that Nyneave, taught by Rand and channeling the true power through Rand, by way of callandor, will use the dark one's own power to heal the Bore into his prison after Rand destroys the seals. This will effectively seal him off fully again and anything he influences like shadowspawn will be left bereft of his support.

Again, I don't actually believe this since I do not think the outcome will be anything so literal - belief gives strength to order, yadda yadda lends me to believe it's all gonna be a lot more metaphysical than physical. But I do like this outcome's... tidyness.