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oghedien Raises the Dead

by Truthless: 2011-11-04 | Not yet rated

Recent Categories: The Dark One

I submit to you that it is Moghedien, not the DO, that brings the fallen forsaken back to life.

Argument #1 - She has the means:

We have yet to see how a forsaken is brought back to life. However, we have seen someone else brought into the pattern as a grown woman - Birgitte. And it was Moghedien who performed this feat. The primary arguement suggesting that this is a different situation is that Birgitte kept her body, while the forsaken seem to need new ones. But remember that Birgitte's body could not sustain her, and she was dying when she was brought into Randland.

From TFoH ch 35 (pg 563 softcover) Nynaeve healing Birgitte:

"It isn't working. There's nothing wrong with her to heal. She is as perfect as anyone can be. But she is dying. Oh, light, I can feel her slipping away."

Only the warder bond with Elayne saved her. Moghedien probably knows it's easier to put the dead forsaken into a fresh body than to bond them.

Birgitte is a hero of the horn, is spun out every so often, and lives in TAR in her downtime. It is likely that the forsaken get the same deal in some form. After all, they have also been spun out countless times.

That being said...

Moghedien ripped Birgitte out and put her into the world, but does that really seem so bad? Why would this really be a punishment? Birgitte believes it is because she will not be with Gaidal Cain in this life. This is pretty weak for a forsaken with a grudge: After all - we know that in the AoL, Birgitte (then known as Teadra) foiled Moghedien's plan to trap Lews Therin. I doubt Moghedien forgot about that.

A more reasonable downside to being ripped from TAR is that Birgitte's soul will be destroyed (or at least not brought back to TAR until she's spun out again) if she dies in her current state. Moghedien is fully aware of this, that wasn't her first time ripping people out of TAR. Moghedien does say that she will punish her by making her "weep alone for an eternity". My (purely speculative) idea is that now that Birgitte has been ripped from TAR she will never again be able to spend her downtime between lives in TAR with Gaidal.

Evidence #2 - The Aginor situation:

It's safe to say at this point that Aginor is not coming back for round three. But the question is: why? He did a pretty lack-lustre job with both his lives, but does that warrant the DO just throwing him away? He still is one of the most powerful channelers of all time working for the dark. In fact, I believe that he cannot be revived again. He was ripped out of TAR, like Birgitte, and his soul has been destroyed (or at least will not return to TAR). Egwene's dream of the black towers in ToM supports the theory that Aginor will not return:

“All was dust around [Egwene], and thirteen black towers rose in the distance beneath a tar-like sky. One fell, and then another, crashing to the ground. As they did, the ones that remained grew taller and taller. The ground shook as several more towers fell. Another tower shook and cracked, collapsing most of the way to the ground—but then, it recovered and grew tallest of all.

At the end of the quake, six towers remained, looming above her. Egwene had fallen to the ground, which had become soft earth covered in withered leaves.”

There are six towers - and six forsaken - left at that point. These being Ishy (Moridin), Lanfear (Cyndane), Demandred, Graendal, Mesaana, and Moghedien. No room for Aginor there. You could argue that he may still be resurrected, but the fact that it says "At the end of the quake..." as if the (resurrection) dust had settled, suggests to me that six are left able to participate at this point. So this means all forsaken essentially have two lives. That's good news for our heroes... Ishy and Lanfear don't need to be balefired!

Evidence #3 - The Lanfear situation:

Every forsaken that has been resurrected had been male up until Lanfear. And they were all resurrected at full strength. Lanfear, however, has been brought back at a fraction of her former power. What gives? Is the DO a saidar-wielding woman, then? A much more reasonable explanation is that it is a female forsaken doing the resurrecting. It couldn't be Lanfear (since she was resurrected herself) and it's pretty laughable to imagine the peer-slayer Graendal reviving her old friends.

Argument #1: Well then why does balefire make it impossible for people to be resurrected?

It may be that when you're balefired you do not wait in TAR until the next time you're spun out. Or there may be some explanation I haven't thought of.

Argument #2: Why can the shadow convert Rand (and others) to the dark side when they die if it's just Moggy doing it?

Perhaps the DO does have a hand in this by trapping the souls of people right after death. Or it may be a trap set by Moghedien somehow.

Argument #3: Nynaeve thinks Moggy has little healing ability. How could she heal Lanfear?

I don't know. Nynaeve could be wrong, or the weave could be simple enough (relative to AoL weaves) for Moggy to pull it off.

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Tamyrlin: 2013-01-07

WinespringBrother's response for Tamyrlin:

This is an interesting take, but we have some answers in the books and from Q&A's with Robert Jordan and Brandon Sanderson that answer some of these questions, including that balefire prevents reincarnation by the Dark One due to its temporal effects and that Lanfear may have been weaker due to the Finns draining her One Power strength while she was a captive.


NaeblisSunshine: 2014-08-27

This has a lot of spoilers, so please, if you don't want spoilers, don't read on.

Now you are hopefully not too interested as a result of that, but here's what I thought in response to this.

The theory provided about Verin's death and rebirth by Horn of Valere in the "Nakomi's Soul is Brown" theory reminded me of the second force that resurrects, Horn of Valere, in counter to the ability of the Dark One to bring people back, but I feel this ties in with the idea of the Horn of Valere being involved with the same plane the Dark One draws servants back from, or being involved with some other plane; for example, the dead are seen to walk in some mentions during the last two books, but not, if I remember correctly, in Tel'aran'rhiod, which limits, perhaps, this as the place where the DO and Horn of Valere draw their resurrections from, though it would be interesting if some part of people were left in the dream plane which helped in the process. In other words, we're not really briefed on what Birgitte is doing in Tel'aran'rhiod in the first place, which at the time was interesting, since it seemed no-one else was hanging around in there with her at the time, though indeed, they may have been there, which would suggest people dreaming of the heroes (The forsaken could have some link to this too, being feared enough to show up in Nightmares)

Some of the things I think we know about the resurrection process in the context of the book include how many were resurrected by who; the DO brought back at least Aginor, Balthamel, Lanfear, Graendal, and Ishamael, along with who knows who among darkfriends and other dreadlords, as when Mazrim Taim shows up with a group of dreadlords, I don't remember being given a number for the group, or assured that all of them were from the Black Tower, and it wouldn't surprise me too much if the Dark One waited to resurrect other dreadlords from the Age of Legends until the Dragon attacked again, the DO not having much else to do but plot, it might seem, though in the supplemental encyclopedia it mentions that while there were more dreadlords, they were pitted against each other, and presumably destroyed, though this isn't clarified and I think it was Moghedien who mentioned "The dark lord had always enjoyed pitting his servents against one another" in Memory of Light, but doesn't mention whether this is to the point of destruction. Even with such dreadlords, the number wasn't enough to overwhelm the Aes Sedai forces, and this remains in contrast to the Horn of Valere, which brings back at least Rogosh Eagle-Eye and Artur Hawkwing along with some of Hawkwing's generals, indeed, anyone whom the light has considered a hero, which is quite a lot, so I feel inclined to wonder about what the two powers have in common and what apart, though the creator's influence as having some random Aes Sedai smith forge the Horn of Valere seems notable.

This seems to provide a contrast just in how many were brought back, and how the Horn is used differently to the Dark One's power just in basic intent; one to conquer, though the element of being bound to the DO or being bound to the pattern through the Horn of Valere is perhaps notable. Here we see that Lanfear and Ish are still dreamed about, with the example of Rand and Perrin both having dreams about them, indeed, two of the balefired forsaken, Be'lal and Rahvin, were dreamed about by Perrin, I think, in TGH; Aginor, however, is not dreamed about by anyone, but seen with Balthamel, which could result in his being dreamed about later (Dream theory involves memory processing, since there would now be a memory of Balthamel and Aginor, certainly for Nynaeve and Elayne, they could then show up in dreams during such memory processing)if we want to continue a hypothesis about the D0 using Tel'aran'rhiod as a source to help return his servants to the waking world.

I would doubt that Moghedien, while of considerable ability, no doubt, was the one causing resurrections, for the following reasons; first, the Dark One is considered Lord of the Grave, as one of the less-used titles. No-one really contests this idea except Ishamael, and even then, Ish often seems confused about who he is, so it's reasonable to wonder if this is just Ish forgetting that the Dark One exists; given Ish's perception and the trying to harness all the power flowing through at any given time, trying to keep a hold on reality and existence despite the experimentation on self that Ish has undergone, it wouldn't surprise me if this explains a lot of the contesting of the Dark One from Ishamael's point, and no-one else seems to spend a lot of time contesting the Dark One's ability except the Dragon himself. Further, Moghedien shows no signs of contempt for the Dark One being the established master of the grave, and indeed is particularly afraid of the DO when having to go meet the DO in Shayol Ghul, where it might be noted, the DO tortures her somehow, furthermore, you have Ishamael and Lanfear both at times questioning the DO, expecting protection, having insight into the workings of the pattern, Lanfear having had desire to escape being "claimed" by the DO, but Moghedien doesn't question much of the DO's orders for her, except perhaps as expected when under control of Moridin and trying to rebel, and when Nynaeve and Elayne suggest Moghedien try to escape, and discuss plans to thwart the Dark One, Moghedien ridicules them; however, you bring up a point with Moghedien's ability to rip Birgitte out of tel'aran'rhiod and into the waking world, which could have some tie to study under the Dark One, or could be attributed to what Moghedien claims as her "Superior ability in Tel'aran'rhiod", as we read in both the encyclopedia and in the main series that Moghedien considered herself superior to Lanfear in Tel'aran'rhiod, despite the latter claiming it for her own. It would make sense to me that the forces used to resurrect people via the Horn of Valere would be in opposition to those of the Dark One though, as these two seem to provide a physical outlet for conflict between light and dark, and one's struggle to retain a claim to the world in opposition to the other, or indeed, in contrast.

Ultimately, depending on whether this was written by Sanderson or Jordan, the fate of Moghedien doesn't leave much room for her resurrecting her fellow forsaken, and Demandred, not being defeated by balefire, may in fact be able to be resurrected in such a fashion, likewise, once Graendal's compulsion has worn off, unless the army who served under the Dragon Reborn execute her using balefire, they run the risk of having her resurrected as well. Nonetheless, I do find the theory interesting in that it sparks debate about how the DO actually goes about reviving people.