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onds, links and the Dragon reborn

by vardene: 2007-04-15 | 2.64 out of 10 (11 votes)

Recent Categories: Rand and Lews Therin

Bonds, links and the Dragon Reborn.

As the finale draws nearer, i believe we ought to have an understanding and concensus on issues central to the series. In putting this together, i have reduced quotes to the barest minimum to keep it short and readable.The topic itself is common throughout the series and i believe most of us need only a few reminders. However it is a theory, and up to each TLer to decide what to accept and what not. Whatever your views, have fun. My thanks to Tam for his assist.

There are many types of links among channelers in the series. Some are bonds, others not. They include;

(1) Rings or circles (R) :these are the oldest known as far back as AOL.. (2) Warder bond(WB). (3) Ashaman bond (AshB) (3) Aiel sister bond (asb) (4) The suldam/adam/damane link. (5) The Rand/Moridin link (6) The Mydraal/trolloc link...

These Bonds/links have similar properties and differences .

1.The WB

The bond creates a presence of one person within another. Each (warder or AS) can feel the other's emotions and is also aware of their physical state. However the only same sex bond in the series exhibits much stronger sharing of physical traits and emotions but not thoughts.

winter's heart

CHAPTER Prologue - Snow pg 14

**They mirrored each other in surprising ways since the bonding, emotionally and otherwise. Why, her courses had shifted by more than a week to match the other woman's!**

Both parties are affected by the bond. The warder gains the ability to sense the taint (a trait normally reserved for those who can touch the true source), quick healing and strengths.The AS can compel and can also draw on the warder's strength.

2. Rings.

All persons in a ring have shared sense of presence of each other's emotional and physical states. Abilities in channeling are available in the ring and made stronger by being in the ring. Usually either party can control the ring but some rings restrict control (pls see aCoS glossary). Some rings are also thought to allow compulsion. There are no known lasting physical effects but the link itself is usually temporary(cf. WB). It is not known also if rings affects talents e.g. foretelling.

. winter's heart

CHAPTER 35 - with the choedan kal pg 658

**He was aware of her, he realized suddenly, in much the same way he was aware of min, but all he could think of was saidin, flooding through him uncontrolled.**

3.The adam

Adam mediated links.

TSR

CHAPTER 54.- into the palace. pg 908(paperback)

** "So you discovered that little gem behind you," Moghedien said in a moment of precarious balance. Surprisingly, her voice was almost conversational. "i wonder how you did that. It does not matter. Did you come to take it away? Perhaps destroy it? You cannot destroy it. That is not metal, but a form of cuendillar. Even balefire cannot destroy cuendillar. And if you mean to use it, it does have. . .drawbacks, shall we say? Put the collar on a man who channels, and a woman wearing the bracelet can make him do whatever she wishes, true, but it will not stop him going mad, and there is a flow the other way, too. Eventually he will begin to be able to control you, too, so you end with a struggle every hour. Not very palatable when he is going mad. Of course, you can pass the bracelets around, so no one has too much exposure, but that does mean trusting someone else with him. Men are always so good at violence, they make wonderful weapons. Or two women can each wear one bracelet, if you have someone you trust enough. That slows the seepage considerably, i understand, but it also lessens your control, even if you work in perfect unison. Eventually you will find yourselves in a struggle for control with him, each of you needing him to remove your bracelet as surely as he needs you to remove the collar. **

it creates a presence of the leashed one (L.O.) within the leash holder (L.H.) it also creates effects on both parties. All OP abilities are restricted at one end (LH) who is also able to compel/control the other. However as the male adam allows backflow of the taint (and saidin?), it may be that the female adam does as well. Evidence in support of this includes (a)Eagerness of suldam for the experience of being "complete"- they may well be experiencing the ectasy of saidar. (b) their increasing abilities in the OP (seeing weaves, the ability to channel outright). There is often a fondness between suldam and damane. (cf. the affection between warders and AS.) though it cannot be considered as permanent as the WB.

4.AshB

initially created for domestic use, it creates a presence of both parties within each other and also exhibits compulsion. Like rings though, it exists between parties that can channel and is not a same sex bond (so far).

5. Aiel bond

Known to create a presence of two people within each other. Peculiar in that it is used on non channelers as well.

CONCLUSION: Several different bonds derived from the OP, create a link that places a part of one person inside another and makes new abilities available. These links show a spectrum of properties.

LEWS THERIN

Rand's situation is peculiar in the series for the number of bonds/links that he has. Why so many?

Rand is bonded to Alanna, Ely, Avi and Min (WB). He is somehow linked to Mat, Perrin and Moridin. He also has LTT in his head. He may even be linked to Fain!

The WB is not unusual except that alanna is unable to compel him. However what are the effects of these bonds? will it make rand stronger? by a factor of four? more sensitive to the taint of the DO on shadowspawn? more resistance to madness? or share the taint with them? or able to compel his "warders"?

The link with LTT however is an unknown quantity. But it does show certain traits that may help determine its origins and properties.

(a) "presence" - there are two "persons" in a body. With differing views on politics, women and channeling.

(b) abilities in the OP available to both.

(c) awareness of each other's emotional state. They only seem to be aware of each other's thoughts occasionally.

(d) they have different sensitivity to the DO's taint. LTT with several hundred more years of experience, noticed the grayman first (LoC ch.28)

(e) flow of abilities/memories goes both ways.

This "link" has properties similar to other OP derived links/bonds.

in addition, there has been a gradual increase in the sense of LTT's presence felt by rand. The more he channels, the more he has become aware of LTT since TSR. He did have memories that no one born normally in this age should have had

TEoTW

CHAPTER 9 - Tellings of the wheel

**It was not the valley itself that sapped his strength and filled the empty spaces left with helplessness. From the center of the furious vapors a mountain thrust upward, a mountain taller than any he had ever seen in the Mountains of Mist, a mountain as black as the loss of all hope. That bleak stone spire, a dagger stabbing at the heavens, was the source of his desolation. He had never seen it before, but he knew it. The memory of it flashed away like quicksilver when he tried to touch it, but the memory was there. He knew it was there. **

LTT has become more "solid" especially at times of channeling and seems to be getting stronger within rand. (cf the link with moridin also seem to become stronger with time and with use of the OP. Ditto the links with perrin and matt.)

Finally, the manner of LTT's "death" on DM involved massive use of the OP and a great need. HE TRIED TO DRAW IT ALL. However apart from DM itself, no other effect of the large amount of OP drawn is seen. where did it all go? why DM? obviously, the rest of the OP must have been used for something. And DM, on which rand was born, was definitely created by the power LTT channeled 3000yrs earlier. Also, Gitara did not foretell the dragon's birth until DM, 9 full months after the fetus was concieved!

It seems likely then that the link between rand and LTT is not only OP derived but actually occurred on DM.

TITLE: Eye of the World

CHAPTER: Prologue - Dragonmount

** He drew on the True Source deeply, and still more deeply, like a man dying of thirst. Quickly he had drawn more of the One Power than he could channel unaided; his skin felt as if it were aflame. Straining, he forced himself to draw more, tried to draw it all. "Light, forgive me! Ilyena!" The air turned to fire, the fire to light liquefied. The bolt that struck from the heavens would have seared and blinded any eye that glimpsed it, even for an instant. From the heavens it came, blazed through Lews Therin Telamon, bored into the bowels of the earth. Stone turned to vapor at its touch. The earth thrashed and quivered like a living thing in agony. Only a heartbeat did the shining bar exist, connecting ground and sky, but even after it vanished the earth yet heaved like the sea in a storm. Molten rock fountained five hundred feet into the air, and the groaning ground rose, thrusting the burning spray ever upward, ever higher. From north and south, from east and west, the wind howled in, snapping trees like twigs,

At last the wind died, the earth stilled to trembling mutters. Of Lews Therin Telamon, no sign remained. Where he had stood a mountain now rose miles into the sky, molten lava still gushing from its broken peak. The broad, straight river had been pushed into a curve away from the mountain, and there it split to form a long island in its midst. The shadow of the mountain almost reached the island; it lay dark across the land like the ominous hand of prophecy. For a time the dull, protesting rumbles of the earth were the only sound. On the island, the air shimmered and coalesced. The black-clad man stood staring at the fiery mountain rising out of the plain. His face twisted in rage and contempt. "You cannot escape so easily, Dragon. It is not done between us. It will not be done until the end of time."

Then he was gone, and the mountain and the island stood alone. Waiting.**

Finally, the AS claim 3 taveren occuring at once is unprecedented, and the link between them has grown stronger since the OP blast. Plus the three have been together since childhood. Any accident?

CONCLUSION : The OP blast in DM sent LTT's "essence" 3000yrs into the future, to an age that he could "redeem" himself and also linked him with the baby rand on DM. He is also probably linked to Matt and Perrin as well.
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Comments

1

Tamyrlin: 2007-08-20

Hey Vardene, I like the connection you make to linking, bonds, and the sensation/existence/appearance of LTT in Rand's head. I'm sure Terez will be along shortly to disect your theory. Although, I find it difficult to believe that some bond was formed, considering the soul is the same soul, it wouldn't seem necessary to have a secondary bond to create the existence of LTT in Rand's mind. Feist does something more akin to what you propose in his story (was it Thomas...or Pug...crap, I need to go reread those books). But, where the presence of one person in another's mind such as we see from bonding and linking is similar to Rand's experience, your theory would have to be less about sending some bond forward three thousand years and instead creating an everlasting bond between the personality of LTT and the soul. At least, that is how I would have to see it working.

2

terez: 2007-08-21

"I'm sure Terez will be along shortly to dissect your theory."

Hardly. It was enough of a headache the first time. And the second time, for that matter.

3

Davian93: 2007-08-22

****

CONCLUSION : The OP blast in DM sent LTT's "essence" 3000yrs into the future, to an age that he could "redeem" himself and also linked him with the baby rand on DM. He is also probably linked to Matt and Perrin as well. ****

I simply don't buy it. For all the evidence that I'm sure Terez is posting (her response isn't posted yet) there is no legitimate way for LTT's essence so to speak to make the leap forward 3500 years. The connection between Rand and LTT is based off of rebirth inherent in the Wheel, not any other mystical force. The Wheel rebirth is consistent with the rules of magic that RJ has given us so far during the series, while the "essence" doesn't fall into the accepted precepts of Randland. Also, how in the world would it be connected to Mat and Perrin? They were born in the Two Rivers not Dragonmount like Rand. Did the essence hang out in the Two Rivers as well to infuse itself in their souls?

Oh and Tam, those Feist books were excellent, I'll have to dig through my books and try to find them for a reread.

4

Catalyst: 2007-08-23

This theory unleashes my hands for quite a lot of things.

The Overdraw:

Lews Therin simply wants to die alone when he realises what he did in the madness mode. He overdraws, because he knows how it will result. He could not have know that he would create a mountain, that later will be named after him, and the prophecies will speak of it etc. Simple overdraw.

Another possibility: he imprisons his "essence" inside Dragonmount.

Another possibility: somehow he is simply put into Rand's head. Due to what, I can't know.

The Hundred Companions:

I don't know whether Rand is the only to suffer another madman in his head. There is no evidence, but in Path of Daggers (don't remember the exact chapter, it was 13 or 14), Rand and the Asha'man are in a tent together, and some of them are quite absent minded at the moment, like the way Rand does sometimes listening to Lews Therin. Probably some special Asha'man hear voices of the Hundred Companions. Just a speculation.

I also want to mention the Choedan Kal.

KoD, Wavemistresses meet together, a messenger arrives to announce the Amayar's death and the reason for it - the melting of the Great Hand of Tremalking. We know that the female CK is buried there and only the "Great Hand" is seen on the surface.

WH, Ch. 35, Cadsuane retrieves what is left of the access key.

My point is, is the female CK damaged? And if it is, will it be repaired and by whom?

Elayne has skills with that sort of thing, but still...

As to the exact manner of how Rand will seal the Dark One again:

Herid Fel's note, which was given to Min, mentions something about "clearing the rubble before building up". I'm not much sure about it, but to me it means destroying the old prison and building a new one. Just speculation.

I hate waiting. 2009 is so far away that recently I'm on the brink of doing an overdraw on saidin myself. Maybe I will be reborn in a time when A Memory Of Light is already written.

5

vardene: 2007-08-24

congrats on the work done on the servers here Tam, lets hope it works as planned. Of course no plan ever survived first... :) just kidding.

**Although, I find it difficult to believe that some bond was formed, considering the soul is the same soul, it wouldn't seem necessary to have a secondary bond to create the existence of LTT in Rand's mind**

Not exactly. i'm treating this as it is-based on the facts RJ has given concerning bonds and links, i've made the logical deductions necessary. Even if you are only willing to accept two personalities rather than two souls, the physics of RJ's world means that the two would still operate like a bond.i.e.the effects would be largely similar to one. However LT got into rand's head the effects would be the same. The only scenario that defeats this is if LT did not exist at all, which RJ refuted by saying there's a second personality present,not a "pseudopersona" as some suggest but a full living personality. Note that we have seen other variations of this theme: one soul, one personality and several memories (Matt) others such as Fain, Slayer, Birgitte and the aes sedai bonds show that there is a wide variety of ways in which jordan varies this concept.

Davian,

**The connection between Rand and LTT is based off of rebirth inherent in the Wheel, not any other mystical force. The Wheel rebirth is consistent with the rules of magic that RJ has given us so far during the series, while the "essence" doesn't fall into the accepted precepts of Randland.**

Nope. All the comments we've had from the characters in the series show that this is unprecedented. iirc it was semirhage in LoC. i'll hunt it up for you later. People are reborn yes, but not in such a specific manner as this (just as they are not born with memories of past lives unless something else interferes such as the OP or the TP in the case of the forsaken.)

We've seen Egwene's "essence" several times and a lot of interaction between the nonphysical world and the waking/physical world such as the aiel rings the accepted terangreal and even the finn gateways. i only use the term essence not to prejudice whatever research TLers will come up with later concerning these phenomena.

**Oh and Tam, those Feist books were excellent, I'll have to dig through my books and try to find them for a reread. **

You'll enjoy it. BTW i think Tam was doubly right, it works like both Pug and Thomas though more Thomas.

**Hardly. It was enough of a headache the first time. And the second time, for that matter. **

Glad to be of service ma'am. Anything else i can do for you?

I have not made difficult conclusions though it could have been a much longer theory since i have tons of evidence for it. However no amount of evidence can refute a bias. You have to be willing to accept a theory on its merits with evidence it gives. If you have evidence its not so, then post it. Don't just say i dont like it.:)

**Also, how in the world would it be connected to Mat and Perrin? **

The flashes/swirling colours indicate some sort of connection between the three. There isn't any other logical conclusion. How or why it exists is a different point entirely. But the fact that Moridin/Rand have a similar link created via OP/TP speaks in favour of it being created artificially.

6

Marie Curie 7: 2007-08-26

Catalyst:
"KoD, Wavemistresses meet together, a messenger arrives to announce the Amayar's death and the reason for it - the melting of the Great Hand of Tremalking. We know that the female CK is buried there and only the "Great Hand" is seen on the surface.

WH, Ch. 35, Cadsuane retrieves what is left of the access key.

My point is, is the female CK damaged? And if it is, will it be repaired and by whom?

Elayne has skills with that sort of thing, but still..."


Well, the hand of the female Choedan Kal melted, as you said, so the statue is obviously damaged. However, it seems to have been more than that:

------
TITLE: Knife of Dreams, CHAPTER: 22 – To Make An Anchor Weep

"Poison, Wavemistress." Cemeille replied. She struggled to compose herself, but tears still leaked down her face. "Everywhere I have been, it was the same. They gave their children a poison that put them into a deep sleep from which they did not waken. It seems there was not enough of that to go around, so many of the adults took slower poisons. Some lived long enough to be found and tell the tale. The Great Hand on Tremalking melted. The hill where it stood reportedly is now a deep hollow. It seems the Amayar had prophecies that spoke of the Hand, and when it was destroyed, they believed this signaled the end of time, what they called the end of Illusion. They believed it was time for them to leave this… this illusion" - she laughed the word bitterly - "we call the world."
------

Since the place where the hand of the female Choedan Kal stood is now a deep hollow, it's my impression that even more of the statue must have been damaged or destroyed. Anyway, since the female access key is ruined and no other intact ones are known, the female Choedan Kal couldn't be used safely at present even if had not been further damaged or destroyed.

Elayne could possibly figure out how to repair sa'angreal with study and time, but she currently does not have that skill. She can make ter'angreal, but she hasn't had much of an opportunity to study angreal or sa'angreal in order to learn how to make them:

------
TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: Prologue

"I haven't done as well as I might with the ter'angreal, Anaiya Sedai." That, at least, was hers and hers alone. The first had been the bracelet and necklace - a fact kept well hidden, needless to say - but they were an altered copy of a nasty invention, the a'dam, that the Seanchan left behind when their invasion was driven into the sea at Falme. The plain green disc that allowed someone not strong enough to work the invisibility trick - not many were - had been her idea from the first. She had no angreal or sa'angreal to study, so they had been impossible to make so far, and even after her ease in copying the Seanchan device, ter'angreal had not proven as easy as she had thought. They used the One Power instead of magnifying it, used it for one specific purpose, to do one thing. Some could even be used by people who could not channel, even men. They should have been simpler. Maybe they were, in function, but not simple to make.
------

Since then, she has had some angreal from the Ebou Dar stash for potential study, but apparently her efforts to secure the throne and her pregnancy have not afforded her that opportunity (if she had to halt her studies of ter'angreal, then she clearly would have had to halt any possible study of angreal, too):

------
TITLE: Knife of Dreams, CHAPTER: 15 - A Different Skill

Aviendha chose blue, which she often did, with rows of tiny pearls edging the bodice. The silk was not so deeply cut as Ebou Dari fashions, yet still would display a little cleavage; few dresses sewn in Ebou Dar failed to do that. As Sephanie began fastening her buttons, Aviendha fondled something she had retrieved from her belt pouch, a small dagger with a rough hilt of deerhorn wrapped in gold wire. It was also a ter'angreal, though Elayne had not been able to puzzle out what it did before pregnancy forced a halt to such studies.
------

Also, while Elayne might be able to figure out how to repair or remake the female access key, it would almost certainly take more than one person to repair or rebuild the sa'angreal itself (and possibly men and women working together). And although a few of the Aes Sedai have learned the rudiments of making ter'angreal, none of them have been very successful:

------
TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight, CHAPTER: 17 - Secrets

Not everyone was unenthusiastic, though. Janya, slim in her pale bronze silks and wearing her brown-fringed shawl draped over her arms, studied what Kairen and Ashmanaille were doing with the eagerness of one who wished she could be doing the same. Janya wanted to know everything, to know how everything was done and why it happened that way. She had been extremely disappointed when she could not learn to make ter'angreal - only three sisters aside from Elayne had managed that, so far, with very spotty success - and she had made a concerted effort to learn this skill even after the testing showed she fell short of the required strength in using Earth.
------


7

vardene: 2007-08-30

Catalyst, it is possible LT's "essence" was imprisoned on DM or that DM was just a trigger point for the weave (cf. callandor in the stone) but i favored this path in my conclusion because Moridin searched for LT and couldn't find any trace both immediately after the event and during EoTW (probably for years in between as well).

However i dont think there's such a thing as a simple overdraw. When rand drew saidin unwittingly in TDR he had to send it somewhere. whatever LTT drew on DM had to go somewhere to do something. The factors that will determine what weaves are created includes the weavers intent, skill and chance. Chance we know, is affected by the pattern and if LTT was taveren in the AoL, then weaves may actually end up doing what he needs. But i don't have enough evidence from the books to decide if it was chance(the pattern) or skill.

8

Davian93: 2007-08-31

A side note to Marie Curie's post above.

The issue with Elayne being able to make sa'angrael and angrael is simple. Most likely it is difficult or impossible for one channeler to individualy make an angreal. We have a good amount of circumstantial evidence to support this.

1. None of the Forsaken have even attempted to make any. If it was possible for an individual to make one, we would have to assume that at least 1 of the 13 most powerful channelers in the AoL would have the Talent of doing it.

2. In 3500 years, no AS has been successful in recreating one even if they have them to study like they do in the Tower. Granted, given the conservative nature of the WT, this isnt that far of a stretch but I feel this has something to do with secretive individual natures of AS and their penchant for refusing to work together on anything.

3. By definition, if they were easy to make there would be far more of them around from the AoL. Obviously given their scarcity they were only made in small quantities and sa'angrael even more so. After reading the Strike we can surmise that it took large teams of channelers months to make each of the Choedan Kal. Given this information, it seems reasonable to assume that an angreal or sa'angreal is beyond the abilities of an individual channeler or possibly even a small group of channelers.

9

Marie Curie 7: 2007-08-31

vardene:
"You'll enjoy it. BTW i think Tam was doubly right, it works like both Pug and Thomas though more Thomas."

It was Tomas who was infused by the spirit of the Valheru Ashen-Shugar when Tomas found and wore the Valheru armor. So, I guess that you could say there are some similarities between Tomas/Ashen-Shugar and Rand/Lews Therin, but I don't see any similarities between Pug/Milamber and Rand/Lews Therin. Pug was given the name Milamber when he was captured and taken to Kelewan -- Milamber didn't correspond to a past life or anything, as far as I know.

vardene:
"I have not made difficult conclusions though it could have been a much longer theory since i have tons of evidence for it. However no amount of evidence can refute a bias. You have to be willing to accept a theory on its merits with evidence it gives. If you have evidence its not so, then post it. Don't just say i dont like it."

Sorry, vardene, but I don't think anyone has just said, "I don't like your theory". What some are saying is that significant portions of your theory have already been refuted twice on the general discussion boards. You say that you have tons of evidence for your theory, yet you never present it. On the other hand, plenty of evidence has been presented previously (on the message boards) that contradicts your theory. Even rather minor sections of your theory often state as fact things that are just incorrect based on upon published evidence. For example, you state the following in your theory:

Abilities in channeling are available in the ring and made stronger by being in the ring.

This is incorrect, and it has been previously pointed out as incorrect on the general board. From RJ's Blog, October 2, 2005:

-----
For Shiska, a mixed gender circle has X amount of saidin and Y amount of saidar available, set by the strengths of the men and women in it. Talents or special skills available to members of the circle other than whoever is melding the flows are not available to the person who is. If those Talents or skills are particularly needed, then control of the circle must be passed.
-----


10

vardene: 2007-09-03

***1. None of the Forsaken have even attempted to make any. If it was possible for an individual to make one, we would have to assume that at least 1 of the 13 most powerful channelers in the AoL would have the Talent of doing it.***

They were not the thirteen most powerful in the AoL, Davian, just among the most powerful of the age an age where linking the powers of men and women was used to achieve the greatest feats.

*** Given this information, it seems reasonable to assume that an angreal or sa'angreal is beyond the abilities of an individual channeler or possibly even a small group of channelers. ***

Not necessarily. Cuendillar could be made an individual and some terangreal as weel, we've seen elyane and egwene do this, how come none of the forsaken have? Perhaps they are not as high and mighty as you seem to suggest.

Mostly thomas i said. Thomas knew his folks, unlike rand and more like pug. Pug also needed a teacher from among the enemy.

For Catalyst.

Q: Please find out if Lews Therin balefired himself in the prologue in EotW, or if he just drew too much of the OP. If it isn't critical to the continuing plot, I'm sure he'll say.

A: Lews Therin did not use balefire on himself; he simply drew as much of the One Power as he could, then kept on pulling it in

11

vardene: 2007-11-03

Tam,

***Although, I find it difficult to believe that some bond was formed, considering the soul is the same soul, it wouldn't seem necessary to have a secondary bond to create the existence of LTT in Rand's mind***

It isn't a bond exactly Tam. At least it doesn't have to be and i don't think it is at this point, based on evidence RJ has presented. You see the entire point of the theory is that a bond, a circle or a link by adam or otherwise work in pretty similar ways. They seem to suscxribe to the some underlying physical laws or principles. They are a means of establishing a two way flow with one party guiding the flows. I have simply taken the issue a step further in order to show that presence of two personalities within the confines of one body would act as a defacto link or bond would. And since there is no other case of two personas simultaneously linked this way, i have also projected how such a link/bond would work. In essence it boils down to being a more intimate form of the warder bond or a circle. One that is permanently on and involves all parts of the body including the mind and brain. It is the ultimate in sharing.:). I also felt that i neede to take a stab at explaining the possible origin of this observed effect. I will readily admit the theory doesn't account for everything. It isn't supposed to. Just to take care of the more important ones.

***Hardly. It was enough of a headache the first time. And the second time, for that matter***

Neither do i really. The conclusions i made are based on interpreting what RJ wrote and not my personal imagination.

*** there is no legitimate way for LTT's essence so to speak to make the leap forward 3500 years. ***

Legitimate?? RJ has written a story in which the forsaken were trapped and reapppeared after 3000yrs and the survived, and you somehow believe that LTT's survival is somehow illegitimate?? Kindly explain.

*** Also, how in the world would it be connected to Mat and Perrin? ***

This is unknown for now. I simply haven't seen enough in the series to put a theory to that except what i've stated earlier that the AS have never heard of 3 taveren before. I suspect our three lads may be two lads linked to one taveren - LTT! or rather three linked to him. I just can't prove it.

***Abilities in channeling are available in the ring and made stronger by being in the ring.

This is incorrect, and it has been previously pointed out as incorrect***

You misunderstand me. If two men are asked to lift as much as they can, and later asked to work together to lift a load together they would not achieve a maximum together that is greater than what they could apart but they would still lift more than either could apart.

12

greatwolf: 2008-01-04

*****

Abilities in channeling are available in the ring and made stronger by being in the ring.

This is incorrect, and it has been previously pointed out as incorrect on the general board. From RJ's Blog, October 2, 2005:

-----

For Shiska, a mixed gender circle has X amount of saidin and Y amount of saidar available, set by the strengths of the men and women in it. Talents or special skills available to members of the circle other than whoever is melding the flows are not available to the person who is. If those Talents or skills are particularly needed, then control of the circle must be passed.

-----

*****

I have always wondered about this. It is often implied that AS collared as damane cannot be used in battle but i wonder if the seanchan have just got it wrong. If the adam truly works as a link, then the channeler (the suldam) should be able to use the weaves as she wishes unless she is under compulsion of the oath rod. Or is it a side effect of the adam? or perhaps the adam is different from a link in certain areas?

13

Marie Curie 7: 2008-01-06

greatwolf:
"I have always wondered about this. It is often implied that AS collared as damane cannot be used in battle but i wonder if the seanchan have just got it wrong. If the adam truly works as a link, then the channeler (the suldam) should be able to use the weaves as she wishes unless she is under compulsion of the oath rod. Or is it a side effect of the adam? or perhaps the adam is different from a link in certain areas?"

It's more than just implied that Aes Sedai who are damane cannot be used as weapons. Clearly the Seanchan have tried to force them use the One Power as a weapon and have failed:

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TITLE: Knife of Dreams, CHAPTER: 36 - Under an Oak

He had considered using another damane than Mylen. The tiny woman with the face he could never put an age to almost bounced in her saddle with eagerness to lay eyes on the High Lady again. She was not properly composed. Still, she could do nothing without Melitene, and she was useless as a weapon, a fact that had made her hang her head when he pointed it out to the der'sul'dam. She had needed consoling, her sul'dam petting her and telling her what beautiful Sky Lights she made, how wonderful her Healing was. Even thinking about that made Karede shudder. Taken in the abstract, it might seem a wonderful thing, wounds undone in moments, but he thought he would need to be near death before he would let anyone touch him with the Power. And yet, if it could have saved his wife Kalia... No, the weapons had been left with Musenge. If there was a battle today, it would be of a different sort.
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Any former Aes Sedai, like Mylen, who has been collared as a damane cannot be used as a weapon (except against Shadowspawn, etc.) because of the Third Oath. RJ confirmed this in a Tor Question of the Week:

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Questions from August 17th, 2004 - January 25th, 2005

Week 21 Question: Just how can an Aes Sedai be a damane? Aren't they bound by the Third Oath: to not use the One Power as a weapon except to defend their lives, their Warder's life, or another sister's life? Wouldn't they be useless as damane to the Seanchan?

Robert Jordan Answers: The Aes Sedai captured by the Seanchan are indeed useless as weapons, except against Shadowspawn or Darkfriends, because they are bound by the Three Oaths, and that limits their value considerably since being weapons is a major use for damane. Damane are used for other tasks, however, including finding ores for mining (Egwene was tested for this, remember; it's a very valuable, and fairly rare, ability), for some mining operations where it would be too dangerous or uneconomical to use human miners (bringing ores out of the ground and refining them using the Power), and in some construction projects, especially where something very large or with a need for added strength is envisioned. The first two both require a high ability in Earth, which has faded considerably on "this" side of the Aryth Ocean and to a smaller degree of the other side, but construction projects and others things, such as producing Sky Lights, are well within the abilities of collared Aes Sedai. The Three Oaths don't inhibit them there at all.
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The a'dam does involve the formation of a link, but it's a different sort of link, as Elayne points out when she figures out how it works:

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TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 33 - A Question of Crimson

"I do not mean to actually make an a'dam." Elayne held herself erect, chin tilted in that cool way of hers. She sounded offended, and icily calm. "But it is a ter'angreal, and I have puzzled out how it works. I saw you attend at least one lecture on linking. The a'dam links the two women; that is why the sul'dam must be a woman who can channel too." She frowned slightly. "It is a strange link, though. Different. Instead of two or more sharing, with one guiding, it is one taking full control, really. I think that is the reason a damane cannot do anything the sul'dam doesn't want her to. I don't really believe there is any need for the leash. The collar and bracelet would work as well without it, and in just the same ways."
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14

JakOShadows: 2008-01-10

Vardene:

I'm okay with most of your theory except for the part about LTT. I know its been said before, but I still believe that the LTT in Rand's head is purely a personality based on the memory of his souls last incarnation. Kind of like people with multiple personality syndromes. And as has been mentioned above, LTT could have burned himself out just buy drawing in saidin and not focusing it anywhere. And then the lightning bolt of energy was the release of energy after all the saidin could be held anymore. So I believe those are better explained as two separate events/effects.

And somewhere else someone compared LTT to the forsaken. You also got to remember, the forsaken were trapped underneath the seals which seal the DO in his prison which is supposed to be outside of the turning of the wheel. I don't think there is anywhere else in along the pattern where that situation can be applied. And if you remember, Ba'althamel was close to the top and did feel the effects of the wheel on his body, if not his soul. So even then, it wasn't perfect.

15

greatwolf: 2008-01-10

******************

The a'dam does involve the formation of a link, but it's a different sort of link, as Elayne points out when she figures out how it works:

******************

you're suggesting then that not all links function alike? Implying that adam could be different in other areas? or that a male to male(sound electrical) link might work? or what else?

16

JakOShadows: 2008-01-14

greatwolf:

I forget where she says it, but it is a different link. Because its like creating circle of two, and the person with the bracelet end of the adam is always in control of the circle, as caused by the adam. So it creates a forced bondage system in that way, even if someone isn't wearing the bracelet part.

17

Marie Curie 7: 2008-01-18

greatwolf:
"you're suggesting then that not all links function alike? Implying that adam could be different in other areas? or that a male to male(sound electrical) link might work? or what else?"

JakOShadows:
"I forget where she says it, but it is a different link. Because its like creating circle of two, and the person with the bracelet end of the adam is always in control of the circle, as caused by the adam. So it creates a forced bondage system in that way, even if someone isn't wearing the bracelet part."

greatwolf, it wasn't me suggesting that not all links function alike - it was Elayne telling us that the link formed with the a'dam is different based on her study. I don't really have any idea of what you're asking in the rest of that... And JakOShadows, it's in the quote that I previously posted:

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TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 33 - A Question of Crimson

"I do not mean to actually make an a'dam." Elayne held herself erect, chin tilted in that cool way of hers. She sounded offended, and icily calm. "But it is a ter'angreal, and I have puzzled out how it works. I saw you attend at least one lecture on linking. The a'dam links the two women; that is why the sul'dam must be a woman who can channel too." She frowned slightly. "It is a strange link, though. Different. Instead of two or more sharing, with one guiding, it is one taking full control, really. I think that is the reason a damane cannot do anything the sul'dam doesn't want her to. I don't really believe there is any need for the leash. The collar and bracelet would work as well without it, and in just the same ways."
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18

greatwolf: 2008-01-22

marie,

it seems that the links and the adam have similarities and differences. In fact your quote suggests that the adam is a highly specialized link, i.e. if a link could be made that works in that fashion.

However if a link can be made to work so that the OP is only available at one end can it be changed in other ways? There are all sorts of links in the series.

Elyane's bond with birgitte is not a link, yet bonds also show some similarities to the links. And this is a bond that was made with what is in essence, a ghost. (as at the time of bonding). This bond as well, iirc, produced some differences to the normal male-female warder bond. So it may well be possible that you can bond a ghost as vardene seems to suggest but i'd say the theory needs a lot more proof.

And the same factors that are proposed, may very work against the theory.

For one, a weave haunting DM for 3ages should have been noticed as the ward holding callandor in the stone was easily detected even if they couldn't do anything about it.

For another, how would the bond work? and how would it include Matt and perrin? unless it was a weave spread throughout randland? which i dont consider feasible.

The theory may be possible, at least certain aspects certainly are, but the whole thing together is a little suspect.

19

Dragon Tamer: 2008-01-24

you have got some good ideas there. The idea of his channeling keeping his soul on DM for all that time though? i don't know about that. Remember, Lews Therin is one of the heroes spun out every age, therefore he should have resided in the world of dreams with the rest of the heroes until he was re-born (meaning if the horn was blown before rand was born, he should have appeared then). My theory is that when one of the heroes is spun out, they are not always attached to their body immediately at birth, it could be later. This would also be a good explanation for Olver being Gaidal Cain.

20

Marie Curie 7: 2008-02-01

Dragon Tamer:
"you have got some good ideas there. The idea of his channeling keeping his soul on DM for all that time though? i don't know about that. Remember, Lews Therin is one of the heroes spun out every age, therefore he should have resided in the world of dreams with the rest of the heroes until he was re-born (meaning if the horn was blown before rand was born, he should have appeared then). My theory is that when one of the heroes is spun out, they are not always attached to their body immediately at birth, it could be later. This would also be a good explanation for Olver being Gaidal Cain."

RJ has said numerous times that Olver is NOT Gaidal Cain. From the WoT FAQ:

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Q: Is Olver Gaidal Cain?

RJ: No. I didn't really think that this would last as long as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason for being there besides being a red herring, though.

Q: He's too old.

RJ: Yes. Time in T'A'R and the real world run at different rates, but it never runs backwards. You may spend an hour in T'A'R, and a day has passed when you get back, or you may spend a day, and an hour has passed when you get back, but you'll never go in on Tuesday and come back on Monday.

Q: Is the difference in time constant?

RJ: No. It's fairly random. Sometimes fast, sometimes slow, sometimes the same as real time.

Q: It's different for different people, then?

RJ: Yes. Unless they're together in T'A'R. Then the same amount of time passes for them obviously.
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21

vardene: 2008-04-27

*** you have got some good ideas there. The idea of his channeling keeping his soul on DM for all that time though? i don't know about that. Remember, Lews Therin is one of the heroes spun out every age, therefore he should have resided in the world of dreams with the rest of the heroes until he was re-born (meaning if the horn was blown before rand was born, he should have appeared then).***

The forsaken, and particularly Ishamael, weren't in the soul pool as a result of what LT and co did at the bore. LT could have done something similar to himself. Remember he was not with the heroes summoned by the horn in TGH. Very likely becuase his soul was already out there. Lastly, there is no mention of a "dragon soul" in the ages since LT vanished. False dragons aplenty, but no dragon.

After reviewing KoD, i think i could add to this, but it'll have to be later. I actually expected more debate on the bonds/links issue, but since I lumped it together with a "real" LTT, i shouldn't have expected much else.