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2012-04-24: Some thoughts I had during JordanCon4 and the upcoming conclusion of "The Wheel of Time."
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Last ten comments at Theoryland.
Callandor's Purpose@kamaul (#60): Actually, it makes perfect...by wotfreak222
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Hello everyone. This is my first time posting on this site, but I have been a long time reader. As we near the end of the series, the purpose of Callandor has begun to bother me. I looked through the theory index, and I didnt see my theory anywhere. If someone has already put this up, I apologize. Here it goes...
CK: During the War of Power, two huge Sa'angreal, one attuned to saidin and one to saidar, were constructed. The Choedan Kal were to be used to destroy the Shadow's forces and erect a barrier around Shayol Ghul until there was a safe method to permanently seal the Bore.
As an example of how powerful the CK is, this is an exerpt from Winter Hearts, by Cadsuane.
TITLE: Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 35 - With the Choedan Kal
Cadsuane hesitated, something she was not accustomed to doing. The girl could not leave the circle until young al'Thor released her, but unless these Choedan Kal were flawed in the same way as Callandor, she would be buffered against taking in enough of the Power to damage her. Except that she was acting as a conduit for far more of saidar than the entire White Tower could have handled using every angreal and sa'angreal the Tower possessed. After having that flow through her for hours, simple physical exhaustion might be killing her.
This is just the power wielded by the female access key. When combined with the power of the male access key, its no surprise why Lanfear thought with both, one could challenge the Dark One or the Creator (occurs when she sees Rand with the access keys, in the Shadow Rising).
Thus considering the power just one of these access keys can grant, its surprising to read Osangar's thoughts regarding Callandor....also in Winter Hearts.
TITLE: Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 35 - With the Choedan Kal
A pity it had to be destroyed along with al'Thor. But still, he could take Callandor after al'Thor was dead. No One else among the Chosen possessed so much as an angreal. Even Moridin would quail before him once he had that crystal sword.
Not the CK but Callandor would make Moridin quail?! I read this as its a shame the CK has to be destroyed, but the real prize was Callandor. My friend reads this sentence as, Callandor being a fitting alternative to the loss of the CK. He believes it reads as if Osangar had a choice, it would be the CK and not Callandor. I think my way holds more merit, when you read a recent interview with Brandon Sanderson.
INTERVIEW: Apr, 2012
Afternoon Tea with Brandon Sanderson - Luckers (Paraphrased)
Okay, so, there have been three incidences where characters have ignored the Choedan Kal in favour of Callandor—or well, not even that. Just ignored the Choedan Kal. Shaidar Haran in The Gathering Storm when Elza took the Domination Band, Solinda during Rand’s flashbacks was the one who gave the ter’angreal to the Aiel, but made no efforts to secure the Choedan Kal like Callandor, and the Aes Sedai who was looking to fight Ishamael during the breaking who took sa’angreal from the Aiel, but left the Choedan Kal. So I guess the question is...
Why are they choosing Callandor over the Choedan Kal?
Well, not even that, really, because two of those have nothing to do with the Callandor. I guess it’s more, was there something dodgy... did they know something about the Choedan Kal... why did they leave it?
There is a reason. It has to do with Callandor being key to the ending, and the Choedan Kal not.
This is very interesting. Considering the amount of One Power the CK can grant(and its safely done...has a buffer to prevent burning out), the final battle cant be about Callandor just granting great access to the One Power(as an addendum, I would like to add, that Callandor is in fact the 3rd most powerful Sa'angreal ever created for men...the first is the CK, and the second has never been mentioned...at least not that I remember).
In an interview with RJ a few years ago, the origins of Callandor were briefly discussed.
INTERVIEW: Oct 28th, 2005
KOD Signing Report - Jason Wolfbrother (Paraphrased)
Was Callandor constructed during the War of Power?
Was it used in the War of Power?
Yes, that is how the flaw was discovered.
Why didn't they ward/buffer Callandor?
The flaw with Callandor is simply a manufacturing flaw. He went on to talk about how they were at the end of their tech age with only a few sho-wings and jo-cars left. A couple of shocklances were still around but they were not as prevalent as they had been. Anyway they had been mass producing ter'angreal, angreal, and sa'angreal, and there are bound to be flaws with the products. The flaw with Callandor is simply one such flaw.
The known flaw of Callandor was discovered during the Age of Legends (its lack of buffer allows a person to draw on incredible amounts of One Power, but said person would burn out). As LTT was present during this time, its safe to say he would have known about any KNOWN flaw. Since Rand has "accepted" all of LTT memories, and still doesnt know what the flaw in Callandor is, I think its unknown function was known only to a few. They hid clues in the prophecies of the Dragon, so that one day the dragon reborn would be able to use the flaw to his advantage.
In TGS Ch. 48: Rand wonders about Callandor. (It is an inferior and flawed Sa'angreal. So why is it mentioned in the prophecies of the dragon, and the CK are not).
The prophecy: He shall hold a blade of light in his hands, and the 3 shall be as one. (I have bolded hands, since this will be mentioned in my theory...Also, I think the 3 shall be as one, is not just the 3 people being linked as one, but of 3 powers being linked as one (Saidar, Saidin, and the True Power or Saidar, Saidin and the True Source).
In case someone is confused by my use of True Power and True Source: The True Power is derived from the Dark One. The True Source is the driving force of the Universe. While independent of the True Source, Saidar and Saidin still draw upon its power.
My theory: I think this Last Battle is going to be a more permanent one. No I dont think the Dark One will be destroyed, but I do think his imprisonment will be permanent. During the AoL, Tamyrilin was able to sense an unknown power source, through a thin patch on the Dark One's seal. LTT tried to seal the bore, but was only able to use Saidin (since the female Aes Sedai refused to help in his mad plan), thus while present, the Seal was weak, and only a patch. In ToM, Rand believes he has to break the remaining seals, and place them again using both Saidar and Saidin. If this was just ANOTHER LB, I think this end would occur. The Seal on the DO prison would be more secure than LTT's, and we would wait again for the Age where someone would bore a hole through it again (after sensing the unknown power behind it). The cycle would continue, and Ishamael/Moridin would be right in their view point of this battle eventually being won by the DO.
For me, I believe RJ told us the story of this LB, because the pattern allowed for a different outcome then just another stalemate. As i believe the DO can not be destroyed, his death is not the victory.....instead its his imprisonment. When Rand re-seals the DO prison, if the seal was no longer thin, then perhaps the next turn of the Age, their will be no weakness for someone to sense the DO, and bore their hole.
At first I thought it would just be done by using Saidar and Saidin together. But if that were the case, the CK would be more than enough power to accomplish the feat, and Callandor would be useless. Since Callandor plays such a crucial role in the LB, I believe the final seals will be made from more than just the One Power. I think the TRUE flaw in Callandor will allow Rand access to another power source....the True Source or even the True Power (I realize that this power is granted by the Dark One, but in past interviews it has been mentioned that there is an alternate method for tapping into the True Power).
How will Rand be able to tap into this power? At some point, someone from the AoL had figured out the flaw. Being so close to the end, perhaps that person didnt want to risk one of the Forsaken gaining access to Callandor and this alternate power source. Min will eventually ferret out this secret from her studies, and inform Rand. When you take the prophecies of the dragon into account, i think i have an idea of how Rand will access the flaw.
Prophecies of the Dragon: He shall hold a blade of light in his hands, and the 3 shall be one. (We have known for some time now, that Rand only has one hand. How is it possible for him to hold something in both hands? After he lost his hand during the confontration with Semmi, Rand remarks on how he will have to re-learn to sword forms. Since that time, he has had little or no opportunity to practice the Sword. I think once everyone is done talking at the Field of M, someone will come up with a fake hand for Rand to use. We know this from Min's viewing in ToM.....She saw a glowing Sword, Callandor, being gripped in a black hand.....I think this hand will be made from Cuendillar (Since its black and not the white Cuendilllar that Ewgene makes, I think it will be made with both Saidar and Saidin), and it will act as an access key for Callandor's hidden flaw.
Looking forward to what you guys think.
Welcome RealAshaman, thanks for submitting your theory. I like how you've added the black hand into your theory about Callandor and it is a timely topic, especially considering the recently released cover for A Memory of Light. We know Rand will wield Callandor, but what role will it play? Is the role it plays different in this Age? Was there a Callandor in the last Age? Will the Sealing be different? Jordan has said, "...every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless." But we know that unique things can and do happen in each Age such as Fain/Mordeth. So, I take it to mean that Jordan is saying the Wheel wills, and each Age while they have some differences, this complete Turning isn't different from other Turnings that have come before as far as to how the Turning will generally take place. Now, this doesn't preclude the Sealing from being unique, but it does suggest that a unique Sealing will not necessarily change the Wheel's will/design for the next Turning which will be very similar to the last Turning.
This theory actually touches on some of the points I had considered about the re-sealing as well. The only difference I took was that it was actually Moridin, not Rand wielding Callandor. Not to say either side is right but it is just another possibility to explain the issue of Callandor being held in his hands instead of hand. I actually made a post about it earlier, it's pretty much the same thought you had on how the bore is re-sealed, just slightly different circumstances:
The thing that got me thinking was the viewing Min had in ToM Chapter 51, “A glowing sword, Callandor, being gripped in a black hand.” I’ve seen some question as to whether this a new forged hand for Rand or something else. One possibility I was considering is that it may be the hand of Moridin. Min seems to believe that there is a deeper flaw to Callandor and that it would be used against Rand. The first flaw that we see is that Callandor requires a circle with two women wielding Saidar to maintain control as it lacks the normal buffer as described by Cadsuane in PoD Ch27. In essence this means Callandor will be wielded with both Saidar and Saidin. What if the other flaw that Min senses is that it can also use the True Power, after all Cadsuane said that the flaw magnified the Taint on Saidin. A logical choice for someone using the True Power with Callandor against Rand would be Moridin.
Another passage that relates to this would be the Dark Prophecy from the ToM Epilogue, specifically the line “In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning, and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy, the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come.” There has been debate whether the First Among Vermin refers to Rand or to Moridin. It could be seen as Rand breaking the seals on the Bore, after all it mentions both Perrin and Mat in this line, so one would assume the third reference would be Rand. However, if Moridin did somehow manage to wrest Callandor from Rand’s grip in Shayol Ghul, and instead use it to try to open the Bore further as opposed to sealing it, he would in effect be the black hand wielding the blade against Rand and the First Among Vermin lifting his hand to free the Dark One. Fain’s interference may be just what causes Moridin to gain the edge and take Callandor and may also be the cause of Rand’s blood staining the rocks of Shayol Ghul, thus fulfilling the Gollum connection that some have made with Fain.
My thought on how this could end up resealing the Bore is in the nature of Callandor’s flaw, that it requires two women channeling Saidar and a male channeling Saidin to be controlled. If Rand maintains his circle with the two Aes Sedai after losing Callandor, his strange link to Moridin may draw Moridin into the circle with them, thus creating a circle of Saidar, Saidin and the True Power, wielded through Callandor. This fulfills the other prophecy from TGS, Ch48 “He shall hold a blade of light in his hands, and the three shall be one.” With Callandor’s flaw, as Moridin tries to open the bore, too late he discovers that control of the circle belongs to one of the women, as it did when Narishma was linked to Elza and Merise in WH Ch35. Especially if that woman is Moiraine, the woman who Min saw Rand would fail without in ACoS Ch35. This allows the woman to seal the bore with all three powers. The use of the True Power could prevent the Dark One from again tainting Saidar and Saidin as it acts as a buffer against the Dark One’s taint. The aftermath of the sealing, whether some or all of those involved either live or die and whether or not Fain ends up sealed in the prison with the Dark One is debatable.
The only thing I really found interesting in this theory is: "He will hold a blade of light in his hands."
I never paid attention to the wording before, and it merits further thought. Other than that, this theory lacks evidence and goes against certain things we already know (this age is no different than any previous). Perhaps it would've been best bounced off of the members in the forums first so it could've been fleshed out more.
Interesting theory, and I appreciate how you tied it into the recent interview data.
I was struck by your "3 shall become 1" comment, and some of the implications if the new seal is somehow a combination of saidin, saidar, and the True Power. However Rand has access to the True Power (intentional as part of the DO's attempt to corrupt Rand, or unintentional via his bond with Moridin), interpreting the "3 shall become 1" as the 3 powers available to Rand (with help from Callandor (and its flaws) and the women in his circle) may be a major clue on how to prevent the DO from touching saidin and saidar. A True Power buffer could potentially be part of the solution.
After submitting my theory, I ran across some great tid-bits during my re-read of The Gathering Storm.
This one is based on Rand's POV(I know RJ has said how this age is no different from any other. I believe when that question was asked, RJ gave an Aes Sedai answer. Up until that point in the series, this Age was just like any other turning. I think this POV shows how this Age is thinking outside of the box)
He would see the world to the Last Battle. And will you have no legacy other than that, a voice whispered in the back of his mind. Not Lews Therin, but his own thought, a small voice, the part of him that had prompted him to found schools in Cairhien and Andor. You wish to live after you die? Will you leave all of those who follow you to war, famine and chaos? Will the destruction be how you live on?
Rand shook his head. He couldn't fix everything! He was just one man. Looking beyond the Last Battle was foolish. He couldn't worry about the world then, he couldn't. To do so would be to take his eye off the goal.
And what is the goal? that voice seemed to say. Is it to survive, or is it to thrive? Will you set the groundwork for another Breaking or for another Age of Legends? Eerily, Rand felt as if he could almost remember those events—not what had happened, but the anger, the desperation, the decision. Was the mistake, then, not using the female half of the power as well as the male? Was that what had allowed the Dark One to counterstrike and taint saidin, driving Lews Therin and the remaining men of the Hundred Companions insane? Could it be that simple? How many Aes Sedai would he need? Would he need any? Plenty of Wise Ones could channel. Surely there was more to it than that.
There was a game children played, Snakes and Foxes. It was said that the only way to win was to break the rules. What of his other plan, then? Could he break the rules by slaying the Dark One? Was that something that even he, the Dragon Reborn, dared contemplate?
Rand has another plan?....to KILL the Dark One? The Forsaken are forever sneering at the current Aes Sedai, and yet marvel at the new weaves the "inferior" channelers have discovered. Stilling wasn't possible in their time. Neither was curing sickness of the mind with the One Power....yet Nynaeve does it in ToM. Despite RJ's proclamation of this Age being no different then any other, the people of Rand land have definetly been thinking outside the box.
This is a POV by LTT, also from the gathering storm. After reading it, I think my theory of a third power being involved in the Sealing or Killing of the DO is more likely.
She's right, Lews Therin said suddenly. She? Rand asked. The pretty one. With the short hair. She says we need to break the seals. She's right. Rand froze, pulling Tai'daishar up short, ignoring the groom who had come to take the horse. To hear Lews Therin agreeing...
What do we do after that? Rand asked. We die. You promised we could die! Only if we defeat the Dark One, Rand said. You know that if he wins, there will be nothing for us. Not even death. Yes...nothing, Lews Therin said. That would be nice. No pain, no regret. Nothing.
Rand felt a chill. If Lews Therin began to think that way . . . No, Rand said, it wouldn't be nothing. He would have our soul. The pain would be worse, far worse.
Lews Therin began to weep. Lews Therin! Rand snapped in his mind. What do we do? How did you seal the Bore last time? It didn't work, Lews Therin whispered. We used saidin, but we touched it to the Dark One. It was the only way! Something has to touch him, something to close the gap, but he was able to taint it. The seal was weak! Yes, but what do we do differently? Rand thought.
Something has to touch him? Well if this time they used both halves of the OP, wouldnt the side that touched the DO be tainted again? Something has to touch the DO that he cant taint. I dont think he can taint the TP(its already his and comes from him). I also believe he cant taint the True Source. The True Source is the driving force of the universe and the pattern...Saidar and Saidin draw upon the TS for their power. Thus my theory that Callandor allows access to either the TP or TS along with Saidar and Saidin seems more likely.
After completing my re-read, I got caught up with how strong the TP was. Was it stronger than the OP? I took some time and tried to read through some of the RJ interviews regarding the TP and OP. What I got from the interviews, was that one really wasn't more powerful than the other. Their differences lay in how the power was used(the weaves required to do a certain thing, are different with the TP and OP), and the source of the power(TP=DO, OP=Creator).
INTERVIEW: Jun 27th, 1996
AOL Chat 1 (Verbatim)
Mr. Jordan, you've outdone yourself with A Crown of Swords. My question concerns the True Power. How is it distinguishable from the One Power?
It's fairly self-evident from the book. What can be done with the True Power is very similar to what can be done with the One Power. Except that where the One Power is drawn from the True Source and is the force that drives the Wheel of Time and powers the universe, the so-called True Power is drawn from the Dark One
In my original theory, I had thought that Callandor's hidden flaw would be to meld Saidar and Saidin into a new power. This was debunked when I read this RJ interview:
INTERVIEW: Jun 21st, 1996
ACOS Signing Report - Brian Ritchie
The universe is driven by saidin and saidar working against each other. They will not end up as the Light Power
I take from this statement that Saidar and Saidin will not be combined to form a third power. So I amended my theory into a third power being added to the two. While Saidar and Saidin are independent of the True Source, from the Sanderson interview above, we know they still draw upon the True Source for their power.
I am a firm believer that RJ told us the story of this particular Age, because the pattern allowed for a more permanent victory for the DO or Randland. This Age has been unique in people(Fain) and discoveries(Healing people that have been stilled). The ability of the people of Randland to think outside the box, maybe their salvation, and give them a more permanent victory. The key to this victory lies in Callandor.
Throughout the series, we have heard how important Callandor is. The sword that would reveal the true Dragon. The Sa'angreal that would be necessary to defeat the DO. When Rand used the CK, we saw the amount of Power(safely) that can be channeled by the CK, completely outshines anything Callandor can do. This makes me believe that the One Power will not be enough. That Callandor's true purpose is not just being a powerful Sa'angreal for Male channelers. This is another excerpt from the Gathering Storm....when Rand first touched the TP.
At that moment he grew aware of a strange force. It was like a reservoir of water, boiling and churning just beyond his view. He reached toward it with his mind. A clouded face flashed before Rand's own, one whose features he couldn't quite make out. It was gone in a moment. And Rand found himself filled with an alien power. Not saidin, not saidar, but something else. Something he'd never felt before. Oh, Light, Lews Therin suddenly screamed. That's impossible! We can't use it! Cast it away! That is death we hold, death and betrayal.
It is HIM.
Rand closed his eyes as he knelt above Min, then he channeled the strange, unknown force. Energy and life surged through him, a torrent of power like saidin, only ten times as sweet and a hundred times as violent. It made him alive, made him realize that he'd never been alive before. It gave him such strength as he'd never imagined. It rivaled, even, the power he'd held when drawing from the Choedan Kal. He screamed, in both rapture and rage,
Just touching the TP rivals all the Saidar and Saidin accessed via the CK? This makes me believe that Callandor's purpose is more than just access to the OP. If Moridin is going to be throwing around the TP during the last battle, Rand wont have the juice to go against him. If however, Callandor binds the 3 into 1(Saidar, Saidin, and TS), he would def be able to handle anything Moridin could throw at him. To further illustrate my point, this is one of the Prophecies of the Dragon.
Look forward to further comments.
Very interesting theory. I think you're definitely on to something in pointing out the strange contrast between the manner in which the CK and Callandor are treated in the books, but I think your insight points in a slightly different direction from the one you've taken.
As you say, the CK are a) much more powerful than Callandor, and b) perfectly safe to use. If the solution to the problem were more of the OP, then the CK should be the key. The fact that Callandor, not the CK, is considered important suggests that the raw quantity of the OP being used isn't that significant.
You've suggested that this means that Rand can use Callandor to access the TP or the TS. But I think it suggests something else. I think it suggests that Callandor is both a sa'angreal and a ter'angreal that allows its user to directly manipulate the Pattern.
As one of the Forsaken POVs told us (I think it was Moridin, but I could be wrong), before the Bore was opened, there was a a 'thinness in the Pattern' somewhere that made it possible to sense the Dark One (I think this was the island where Shayol Ghul is now, but I could be mistaken, and my books are in another country). This strongly suggests that the Pattern itself plays some role in keeping the DO imprisoned (thus explaining why the DO is so keen to sow chaos, which is the opposite of order and undermines the Pattern--see my other theory "Seed Singing the Pattern Shut" for a fuller discussion).
Because of this, a true seal of the Bore will require that the Pattern be re-woven. This is hard to do when the DO is pushing out of the Bore all the time. So what's needed is a boost of "super-Pattern-power", that can be consciously directed at the gap in the weave.
So here's the kicker: what is a ta'veren if not a walking, talking chunk of super-Pattern-power (SPP)? Concentrate enough ta'veren SPP on the Bore, and it may be possible to close it up. But even though Rand is the strongest possible ta'veren, he might not be enough. The hole is pretty big. So what you need is multiple ta'veren in the same place. By linking their SPP together, you might have a big enough fist of Pattern juice to jam the DO back into his prison.
So: I think the 3-in-1 the prophecy refers to is Rand, Mat and Perrin, and not a reference to channelers. Not only are they all Hawkwing-level ta'veren (or stronger, in Rand's case), but they are *linked* in some way. I think Callandor can give Rand the power to draw on this link and channel the combined SPP at the Bore.
Two more pieces of evidence. First, in both tDR and tSR, Rand goes 'nuts' when using Callandor. He says that he feels like he could do 'anything', and tries to bring a little girl go back to life. Maybe this is just him going power-mad, or some weird taint-induced 'wildness of mind', as Moiraine called it. But maybe Rand could sense, on some level, that Callandor gave him the power to do more than just channel the OP. Since Moiraine has been deliberately made the mouthpiece of wrong information in the past, her hypothesis is not that credible.
Second, in the tGS, Rand suggests to Cadsuane that he has the ability to 'will' the Pattern to stop her heart. This may have been posturing on his part, but I think it suggests that for a super-ta'veren like him, it is possible to consciously mould the Pattern in certain ways (much as a Dreamer does in TAR). Later in the same book, Darth Rand seems to radiate evil Pattern vibes, thereby increasing the likelihood of 'bad' events (like when all the food spoiled in Bandar Eban). There's pretty clearly some connection between Rand's mind and the Pattern. Perhaps Callandor was intended to allow him to affect the Pattern directly. Its dual sa'angreal/ter'angreal nature may in fact be the cause of the 'flaw'. Whether it was a necessary or unexpected side-effect, I'm not sure. But it seems pretty strange that the makers of Callandor, who presumably could have made another, and wouldn't want a dangerous piece of equipment floating around, chose to leave it as is.
Your take on Rand influencing the pattern is def interesting.
Your right that this LB keeps happening, because of the thin patch over the DO prison. At some point, someone will sense the unknown power and try to Bore a hole.
I was wondering why you thought Callandor was a Terangeal. When it was created, wouldn't the Aes Sedai have known it was a Sa'angreal and a Terangeal? Can an object be both? If you are unaware of the answers, maybe Tam or other members could tell us. Sorry, I am a huge fan, but I lack a lot of the knowledge some of the older members have. If Callandor was both, I can def see your POV.
Your Taveren super powers are something to consider. I remember the scene where Rand tells Cadsuane the pattern would bend itself to his will and kill her, if he so desired it. She could suddenly die from a heart attack. But I feel that was bravado on the part of Rand. If the Dragon had that much control over the pattern, wouldnt LTT have willed the other Aes Sedai to help him? From my understanding, Rand is just as powerful a tavereen as LTT. I dont think a Tavereen has that much control over the pattern.
The pattern was set by the Creator. But people have Randland have free will. If someone important enough altered the path set by the pattern, a Tavereen is spun out to fix that wrong. Tavereen can influence the pattern, but they cant make it do what they want.
I do like the 3 in 1 idea for the 3 Tavereen being necessary, but I dont think Matt and Perrin will take part in the sealing. Their Tavereen will be needed to keep the DO forces at bay, while Rand seals the Bore.....this is only my opinion.
When Rand tried to use Callandor to heal the girl, he was acting on instinct. At this point in time, he has no real control over the OP. When he channels through Callandor, he probably did feel like he could do anything. Just because you think something, doesn't make it true. Despite his great power, Rand is still a mortal. Only the Creator and the DO have the power over life and death. In his naivete, Rand thought he was capable of doing something that is beyond is reach. I believe his attempt to revive the dead girl was just a mistake of a man with little understanding of the Power at his disposal.
Darth Rand's effect on the land is explained by the Fisher King prophecies. The Dragon is one with the land. While he was in his crazy/Darth phase, the land withered. This does not mean that all the bad things in the lands were his fault. The DO touch had grown stronger, and some of the bad effect we have seen, were the result of the DO's touch. When Rand won his inner war on Dragonmount, the land started to improve where he went. But he couldnt suddenly make to whole world healthy again. Some of the lands that were affected, were the result of the DO touch, and not Rands.
From the RJ interviews, during that AoL, the Aes Sedai were creating Angreal and Sa'angreal as quickly as they could. Sometimes manufacturing flaws occurred. Callandor was a manufacturing flaw. They didnt really mess around with it. The known flaw of Callandor, was probably discovered right after LTT's attempt to seal the bore. How else would they have found out that the Sword magnifies the taint, and requires two women as a buffer. But even as a flaw, wouldnt the people making it know their making a Sa'angreal or a Terangeal? I do agree that the hidden flaw was also discovered at this time, and its secrets were left within the Dragon prophecies.
I have always believed that the bore is a "gateway" of some description. It seems strange that methods of weaving a gateway have been described in such detail where-as weaves such as balefire have just been described as "rand/nyneave wove balefire". This goes doubly for the fact weaving a male gateway is a akin to "boring through the pattern".
If you consider that; if you were to close a gateway the bore would no longer remain and the pattern would be how it was before it started it makes a sort of sense rather than talking about "ta'veren power".
Perhaps ironicially as foreshadowed in PoD where "it was easier to form a gateway from the same place" the bore itself formed the thinness in the pattern in the first place so the bore was able to be formed in the first place; so either the variations in the pattern changed from the earlier turnings of the wheel (unlikely) or the pattern was created with this flaw in mind so the Dragon will have to face the Dark One.
Anyways back to Callandor. LTT will know about the flaw in Callandor BUT Min mentioned there may be a greater flaw than was initially realised.
Interview: Oct 9th, 1996
ACOS Signing Report - Erica Sadun (Paraphrased)
New Dreadlords? Via True Power? What are limits of True Power? When did we see it used before?
Access to the True Power is a matter of wanting it and the Dark One letting you. NOT black cords. In the Prologue to The Eye of the World we saw True Power used to heal insanity. The One Power cannot be used to heal insanity. True Power used at Shayol Ghul will fry you instantly.
Unfortunally this quote debunks any theory concerning using the True Power at Shayol Ghul... but maybe Callandor will be used against the DO using its inherrant flaw against the DO. A "black fist of Onyx" does not have to be a hand... but merely a 'fist of rock' so thrusting the blade into the Black Rock of Shayol Ghul somehow causes a feedback loop within the True Power / Dark One himself allowing the bore (gateway) to close.
*shrugs* In truth I don't think we have all the clues needed for us to work it out; we only have the information which the author wished us to have so with-holding vital clues to the ending will just make a better story :)
I don't have any specific knowledge that Callandor is a ter'angreal. I was just proposing that as an explanation for why it has this very strange flaw. I get the point of the RJ quote, which is that lots of power-related objects were being made quickly and so some of them had defects. What I find strange, however, is that the AoL Aes Sedai would keep Callandor given that it was flawed in that way. It's such a powerful and dangerous object, and anyone using it would run the risk of burning themselves out, and maybe causing collateral damage. I get that in wartime people run risks, but this seems pretty cavalier, given that they could (presumably) just make a non-flawed replacement without too much trouble. So I it occurred to me that maybe the flaw was *necessary* in some way, i.e. that it was the unavoidable by-product of some very specific property they were trying to imbue the object with. And what would be more likely to produce weird side-effects than trying to combine a sa'angreal with a ter'angreal?
Now, the reason that idea makes sense to me is that I think there is some precedent for it in the story. As I said, I don't have my books with me, so I can't dig out the specifics, but as I recall there is a ter'angreal somewhere that can actually alter a person's luck. Since luck is determined by the Pattern, that would suggest that there are ways of using the Power to alter the weave of the Pattern in deliberate ways. And if you think about it, this makes perfect sense. Travelling involves either drilling through the Pattern (for men) or merging two points in the Pattern (for women). And the Bore itself was created by a different kind of weave that altered the Pattern enough to let the DO stick his head out.
There's also some precedent for combining sa'angreal and ter'angreal. The statuettes that linked a channeler to the CK were a combination along these lines. At the very least, they demonstrate that a ter'angreal and a sa'angreal can be made to interact, or even be permanently fused into each other. So, what says that they have to be two separate objects? Why couldn't they be fused into a single object? For the CK it made practical sense to split them up, since the whole point of the ter'angreal was to allow a channeler to use the CK from far away. But if that need doesn't exist, it seems plausible that they could create dual-purpose objects.
At any rate, I don't think that the RJ quote settles the matter. His answers to these questions were rarely straightforward, especially if they involved super-important characters of plot devices.
As for the Darth Rand/channelling super-Pattern-Power idea, you may be right. But again, I think there is some precedent for the idea that a ta'veren can consciously shape the Pattern around them. For example, when Matt rolls the dice, he always gets a 'lucky' toss. But which toss is 'lucky' or 'right' under the circumstances depends on what game he is playing, or what he wants to do. It's not just a question of his ta'verenness taking the *least* likely roll and make it the *most* likely. So, for example, when he was in that 'hell' with Tuon and thought the other players were getting suspicious, he wanted to lose rather than win. And instead of winning (as he usually does), he lost. This suggests that his ta'veren power is sensitive to his state of mind and the outcomes he actively desires. It's not that much of a stretch from that kind of situation to Rand being able to deliberately cause a person's heart to stop--especially if you consider that he's an even stronger ta'veren than Mat.
With respect to the Fisher King idea, you're right, but I think that the *mechanism* by which the Fisher King thing happens is Rand's ta'verenness. The thing with the food in Bandar Eban makes this pretty clear. He is a major 'node' in the Pattern now, and his state of mind can either stabilize or destabilize it. The health of the land depends on the health of the Pattern, and the Pattern cannot be healthy if a ta'veren as powerful as Rand is beaming negative thoughts and the DO's influence directly into it.
Here's a thing:
Rand has two women who will support him in wielding Callandor.
So does Moridin, two women who he has under mindtrap--Moghedien and Lanfear.
I like this theory, but I disagree on one part. The three will be as one. Saidar and Saidin count as one, as they are both parts of the One Power. The second is the True Source, and there is a thord power in the world, a power that did not exist before, Ordeith.
It has been said that it is separated from both the True POwer and the One Power, being effectively a third independent side. It's also been shown that it can counter the True POwer and work in conjunction with the One Power, in Rand's wound and at the cleansing of Saidin.
Now, the important thing about seailng the Dark One is that the One Power cannot touch him directly, you need something to keep them apart, like a condom to prevent the One Power from catching the Dark One's STD.
I think that thing is Ordeith's power, and Callandor's faw will enable Rand to channel it.And the 3 who wil be as one are Ordeith, Rand for the One Power, and Moridin for the True Power.
Does nobody remember the first book of the Wheel Of Time? In that book Rand holds a blade of light and even Ishamael is afraid of it. So the blade of light mentioned may not be Callandor. Even Lanfear remarks that Rand could do 'so much more' when she sees him weilding a blade made of Fire.
I always figured that Rand was referring to the True Power when he said the line to Cadsuane. Either out of his own ignorance of what it was, or because they wouldn't have known since no one else could sense it being channeled.
In response to RJ's comment about the use of the TP at Shayol Ghul frying the user immediately, would the "limitless tank" flaw in Callandor possibly be a way around this? Especially if, in a twist that really isn't a twist, Moridin/Ishamael joins Rand? Ishy only joined the DO in the first place because he believed the DO had a philosophical edge toward victory. He wasn't intrigued by the evil or the power of the DO. He just saw him as the logical outcome. So if Rand becomes the best bet, wouldn't he switch? This also allows for someone more initiated in the TP to be in the Callandor-circle.
That being said, I always thought that the 3-as-1 thing meant the three ta'veren, too, like whoever said that up there.
Saidin and Saidar are not "independent of the True Source," they are the two halves of it.
@Waxer—kanchyhemboy did say he was not talking about Callandor. Rand used the heron-mark blade of saidin at the end of The Eye of the World.
"The One Power cannot be used to heal insanity."
Doesn't Nynaeve do exactly that??
It seems like most of us take for granted this idea that RJ is utterly infallible and anything he says in interviews, book signings, etc. are cold hard fact regardless of how long ago it happened or any consistency flaws. For example, someone above referenced a quote from RJ at a book signing in 1996. Number 1... that was almost 16 years ago. A lot has happened since then - not the least of which is that RJ himself is no longer even alive (RIP). Number 2... Immediately preceding the big reveal (that "True Power used at Shayol Ghul will fry you instantly"), RJ says "The One Power cannot be used to heal insanity." We now know this is false. Nyn does in fact heal insanity with the one power in ToM ch. 15.
This is just one of many instances of someone here referencing an old and inconsistent RJ quote to make a point, so please do not get me wrong. I am not attacking the point made by the person using this particular reference. I only want to address the greater issue. Why do we insist on clinging to the words of a man who has passed (5 years ago now?) to account for a story being written today by a different author? How can we accept information as fact when in the same breath RJ delivers falsehoods and inconsistencies?
The answer to both of these questions, of course, is that we are fans. We love WoT and trying to figure out how it will finally end. We are desperate for any nugget to tide us over until AMoL. But we ought to remember that RJ - while he is also the Creator - is just a man. People make mistakes, and it's unfair for any and all of RJ's words to be held up to a microscope in hopes of finding just that one little piece of information that will Make It All Work or Tie It All Together. Don't we owe it to ourselves to avoid theories that are corroborated only by a halfhearted RJ quote from 15 years ago no matter how interesting they might be? Don't we owe it to Him? It is, after all, His life's work.
Colvko, I think you raise a point that everyone here has to consider to some extent. But I think you should consider two counterpoints:
First, while RJ was of course a man and subject to inconsistencies, you should consider that he endeavored to create a world with 'magic' that was internally consistant, in the way that our world absolutely abides by the laws of thermodynamics. Furthermore, I think an argument could be made that BS is even more rigorous in this aim, and he will certainly endeavor to abide by the rules presented to him when he undertook this project.
Second, take a closer look at what Nynaeve did. She removed a black tentacled thing that was hooked into the Ashaman's brain. Now it had just been established in the previous book that she could heal compulsion; and by "heal" I simply mean "remove", which I think is an important distinction in this question. Now the black mass is similar to Graendal's compulsion - similar enough, I think, that "we owe it to RJ" to consider that this "healing" does not contradict the rule that insanity cannot be healed. It is just another example of removing a hostile weave from a person's brain.
So I think it is justifiable to distinguish between insanity as a mental illness and insanity as a power-wrought madness or compulsion.
The truth is she healed the madness before it became insanity... I think he might have meant that she can't heal someone who is too far gone.
I see we're getting away from the main thrust of this theory and diving into some other areas....having said that, Nynaeve doesn't heal insanity. What she did was heal the effects of the taint on the minds of the Asha'man. True, the effects of the taint on their minds was the same as if they were insane, however it was not, in point of fact, a true case of insanity. What RJ said was that the True Power could not be used to cure insanity. He didn't say "Well, when the taint is cleared from existence, what remains can't be cured." Look at it this way....if you stand outside when it's raining, you get wet. But if you stand outside with the sprinkler on, you have the option of turning off the water. What Nynaeve did was, essentially, turn the water off to get dry.
Hello to all! I have been a fan of this series ever since I recieved EotW and tGH for my Christmas when i was 12. That was 15 years ago now, and I have been completely engrossed in the series ever since. I have found it entertaining to come on this site and others like it in the past to get POV's from other die hard WoT fans so thank you all for that :). But there was one point of contetion I have with a few of the previous posts, and although I may be just nit-picking minor details, but isn't that the point of these sites ;). Nynaeve does NOT heal insanity!!! Even Semirhage had very little luck with that if I'm not mistaken.
What Ny actually heals, is the "Madness" from the Asha'man Naeff. There is a big distinction here between "madness" and "insanity". The madness is a product of the taint on Saidin, the DO's essence if you will, and she uses the OP to pry the barbs of it out of Naeff's actual brain. The "Madness" is a tangible thing that Ny can "see/sense" while Delving, and its effects on the brain are shown throughout the series. Insanity is something completely different, and can be caused my many nuerological disorders, chemical imbalances, and yes, even outside stimuli. But I think in this case what Ny is doing is more like the cleansing of the brain, similar to when she and Rand cleansed Saidin, obviously in a differnt way.
ToM: Chpt 15 'To Use a Pebble'- "The darkness had tiny, thornlike projections stuck into Naeff's mind. She ignored the people gathering around her, and inspected those thorns. She carefully used weaves of Spirit to pry one free.
It came out with some resistance, and she quickly Healed the spot where it puntured Naeff's flesh. The brain seemed to pulse, looking more healthy. One by one, she pried the others free. She was forced to maintain her weaves, holding the barbs back, lest they plunge down again."
"She continued working, preparing another counterweave. Once she had pried up each and every thorn, she released her new weave. The dark patch undulated and shook, like something alive.
Then it vanished."
I don't know, maybe its just me but the fact that there was a "liveness" to the "madness" speaks more to the point of it being the taint that she cleansed rather than insanity that she heals. And remember, Semirhage, as far as I can remember in the series is only described in respect of healing the mind. She is trying to Heal "diseases of the mind" in the AoL and has no luck, and was supposedly one of, if not the, most gifted healers in the AoL.
If you dissagree with me on this thats fine. But there is a clear distinction, in my opinion, between "madness" and "insanity". Nynaeve Heals the "madness".
@2 Bluestar: I love your variation on this theory. And what makes it even more attractive is that it works even if Moridin does change sides and come back to the Light, the difference being he would deliberately allow Rand and/or Moiraine to wield the True Power through the link/Callandor to seal the Bore. It could even still involve Fain in some way.
For me, personally, I have always viewed the Dark One and the Creator as higher entities that live outside of reality. I would liken the Creator as a child making a sand castle and the Dark One as a bully trying to ruin it out of spite. That being said, I think that the TS couldn't be used as a buffer to touch the Dark One, I think that might even have far more disastrous effects then if Saidar or Saidin touched it alone or together.
If you look back in the series it becomes quite clear that there is a greater force at work (the Creator indirectly influencing events to protect his creation). The most common theme in this book is everything happens for a reason, I don't think it is mere coincidence that Rand possesses the ability to wield the TP. The Creator stands for order and balance, which is why he will not directly touch the world, as the Dark One does, or tries to do. The Dark One seems to be made up of chaos and destruction and everything that opposes the Creator. If the TS touched the TP I highly doubt that would be all that good for the Pattern and the Wheel. Pure order and pure chaos touching each other might balance each other out, or it might not.
Also since Saidar and Saidin draw from the TS I think it would be awfully redundant if the TS was involved with the uniting of powers. At the end of the day Saidin and Saidar draw from the TS which means the power is the same if only a lesser version in the form for Saidin and Saidar.
Here's a flyer. Say the Creator is indirectly influencing the world, and Rand is his champion. Think of the scene in the apple orchard as everything blooms and the harvest comes in merely through his presence. Perhaps Rand is directly capable of channeling the True Source as a whole versus in part as is the case for everyone else. Because Rand can do this, he can also access the True Power without the DO's blessing. It is possible that the epiphany Rand had on Dragonmount was his ability to draw the True Source. I think the flaw in Callandor is that is was made via the True Power. Since it handles Saidar and Saidin, one would think it would handle the TS as well. The DO is too ambitious to allow Moridin unlimited pull on the TP, since the DO wants to be the man. The Creator in his more passive approach has given Rand the keys to the knigdom. Moridin will not be able to stand against Rand because of this. In the end, the nature of the DO will be the source of his defeat. This is the cycle the repeats eternally because the DO is unable to change his base nature. Can't wait til January!
The very nature of the True Source is to be split. That is what makes it powerful enough to turn the Wheel. We have seen no evidence that the True Source exists at all in an unsplit form, and we HAVE seen evidence to say that it does not.
Thanks for writing an interesting theory that gets us talking and revves our excitement about the coming final book!
I have a couple points of disagreement.1. I don't think that RJ was setting the stage for a permanent defeat of the dark one. I think that the Wheel is totally central to the makeup of this universe and while there can be a wide variance in what specifically happens in the different ages that makeup a single turn of the wheel, the central peaces do not change and they were outlined by Herid Fel:
Snatching his pipe out, Herid drew a circle in the air with the stem. “The Wheel of Time. Ages come and go and come again as the Wheel turns. All the catechism.” Suddenly he stabbed a point on that imaginary wheel. “Here the Dark One’s prison is whole. Here, they drilled a hole in it, and sealed it up again.” He moved the bit of the pipe along the arc he had drawn. “Here we are. The seal’s weakening. But that doesn’t matter, of course.” The pipestem completed the circle. “When the Wheel turns back to here, back to where they drilled the hole in the first place, the Dark One’s prison has to be whole again.”
I don't think that anything can change that. Either the Wheel exists and time is circular with the Pattern, ta'veren, and all of the Pattern's other mechanisms, or else the Dark One wins and the Wheel/Time is destroyed. Mordeth is an interesting and unique variation this time around and is likely a curve ball that the DO hasn't accounted for, but he will not end up causing an end to the circular time line.
2. The people of this age creating weaves and techniques that were not created during the AoL is interesting, but here we are talking about unique happenings for this turning of the wheel not unique for all turnings. The RJ quote about healing is very interesting and I wonder if this plot line was added by BS and no one in editing remembered that one Q&A about the uses of TP versus OP. The healing of Asha Man may not be a particularly pivotal plot point, just a nice additional thing that makes Nyneve impressive. Lets look at the quote again:
In the Prologue to The Eye of the World we saw True Power used to heal insanity. The One Power cannot be used to heal insanity. True Power used at Shayol Ghul will fry you instantly."
It seems very clear to me that:
1. RJ considered LTT to be insane as a result of the taint
2. The TP healed that insanity
3. RJ was not suddenly talking about schizophrenia, the insanity RJ referred to clearly meant taint induced insanity and he said that the OP cannot be used to heal that kind of insanity.
4. Nyneve healed a taint induced madness. We can try to say that RJ was not contradicting this plot point because the Asha Man was not yet insane, and merely suffering from a touch of madness, but the technique worked and the difference between madness and insanity is just a difference of degrees.
In any case, I'm saying that while nifty, Nyneve healing madness does not show a difference in this age that will lead to the permanent sealing of the bore.
My last point of contention for now is around the discussion of flaw in Callendor and how the two major sa'angreal's were treated. I believe that RJ likely described the defect in Callendor as a "simple manufacturing defect" to throw us off the sent. Describing it that way makes us think of something irreparably flawed, like a defective MRI machine. However what is truly interesting is not just that Callendor had a dangerous flaw, but the way it was treated despite the flaw. Clearly some of the remaining AS knew that Callendor was important to the end and they left it protecting in the Stone for the Dragon. I seem to remember an AS with the Fortelling talent in one of those memories. I agree with all those who said that winning is not simply about the volume of the OP that can be thrown against the DO. Rand with LTT memories has realized this and so destroyed the male CK.
3. Third point of disagreement is that the TP is not more potent than the OP. I believe that the TP makes you feel like you can do anything, makes you feel more alive and more powerful than you do channeling the OP, and that those affects are part of the reason that it is so much more addictive and dangerous than the OP, but that you are not actually more powerful. For an interesting example look at Greadal's description of her use of the TP. She describes a very powerful feeling despite the fact that she is allowed only a tiny amount of the TP. I believe that the two forces are equal, with the only possible difference being that it could take two parts of OP for each one part of TP if RJ set it up that because Saidar and Saidin are two halves of the One Power that opposes the DO, that could mean that one cup of Saidar + one cup of Saidin = one cup of TP.
Ok, enough of nit picking. I love the point made about Rand's ability to access the TP being important for the end. It may be that it is a plot line that has expired now that Rand has healed himself on Dragonmount, but I don't think so. It reminds me of the saying that evil contains the seeds of it's undoing. It may be that the DO gave Rand access to the TP to tempt him or to hasten his decent into madness, yet I like the idea raised that it will end up being pivotal to Rand's triomph. I do wonder if there is some further side affect that we haven't learned about resulting from using the TP, some sort of connection to the DO that happens as a result of Rand giving in and CHOOSING to channel the TP...
what if Moridin takes control of Rand using their bond but finds that control of the circle has been passed? wouldnt that give the light access to the TP? Moridin doesnt have to actually return to the light but he can still facilitate the DO's destruction...and if Rand was controlled by Moridin or absorbed by him (absorbed spiritually or something like the Rand/LTT struggles from before) couldn't Moridin's blood be the "blood on the rocks of Shayol Gul"?
@PerrinMcBeardy: I agree. Most likely, the Randiverse would cease to exist with a final victory for either side, we have heard what happens when the Pattern is seriously damaged by massive use of Balefire. Fortunately the Pattern seems to heal, or reality would weaken with every turn of the wheel.
And we have only the word of the Father of Lies that he seeks final victory, more likely his aim is to dominate next cycle, but tempting his champions with eternal rule is more effective for recruiting.
Perhaps Sanderson will let the dark side win this turn, and treat us to 16 volumes about the Ligth Ajah and hidden Lightfriends assisting the Dragon in his efforts to overthrow and bind the Dark Lord.
Just a thought.
I believe that the “He shall hold a blade of light in his hands, and the three shall be one.” refers to one of two things. My first thought would be that Rand and Moridin somehow become the same man, while along with the recently integrated LTT, the 'three' shall be one. It's said a few times that LTT has never been a separate man but the prophecy just says three. The other thing that I believe it could mean are the three ta'veren in Shayol Ghul which does make a little sense. Rand has spoken about moving his armies directly to Shayol Ghul, and Mat and Perrin would be with his armies. This would also reinforces Min's viewings from early in the series with the small lights flooding into darkness getting stronger around Rand as he develops and also when the heroes are close together. Maybe by now the fireflies are big enough to overtake the Darkness?
I don't think that it refers to the One Power or the True Power. There's been plenty of conversation about how the True Power can't be used, either because the DO won't allow it or the fact that it's in Shayol Ghul and the person will be fried immediately or the idea that the DO can just unravel something made from himself. I think the only argument that could be made would be some outlandish thing like Rand drawing some new power via his transformation. Nynaeve does say in ToM "Thousands upon thousands of the tiny black thorns pricked into his brain, but beneath them was a brilliant white lacing of something. A white radiance, like liquid Power. Light, given from and life. She gasped. It coated each of the dark tines, driving into his mind alongside them. What could it mean?" Could it mean that Rand has access to some new Power? Some Power that doesn't derive from the DO? There is no evidence for this so it's pretty sketchy in my opinion. I prefer the three shall be one referring to the ta'veren.
“In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning, and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy, the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come.” This probably holds as much water as the Dark Prophecy from TGH. If that's the case it's more what the Friends of the Dark want to happen instead of true prophecy.
As far as Callandor is concerned, I think that Min's statement from ToM "Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized." This means nothing as far as who will hold the sword but I think it speaks clearly as to what the 'flaw' of Callandor is. I believe that Cadsuane believes that the flaw is what she said it is, but we all know an Aes Sedai can tell you something that she believes is true but is not. I believe that the key for Callandor will be the end of that phrase. "all that he is can be seized". I don't know if this refers to the DO or Rand as some sort of Creator made flesh, but I think that it is the case.
Although RJ was human, I believe he always was very careful what he mentioned, and I also believe the Sanderson has been and will continue to ber very true to his vision. Therefore I generally believe all those old qoutes from RJ.
As several people have pointed out, the madness from the Dark One's taint is different from insanity, but I would like to add a little something in that if LTT had to have his mind cleared by the TP than it suggests something much deeper than the Dark One's taint.
Also I have always believed (at least after a couple read throughs) that when Rand was trying to resurrect the girl that he was channeling the TP, going along with the theory of the thread possibly through Callandor. The way he describes his feelings when attempting to bring her back to life is almost exactly the same description of how he feels when he channels the TP. Also he truly feels that he can bring her back to life, using the TP he could, he just didn't know the correct way to do it.
We like to read into words, it's the reason the Aes Sedai lies are so effective. So you can't use the TP at Shayol Ghul. We know that there is a thinness in the pattern there, and we know that's where his prison was. No one says he has to be imprisoned on the same spot. His prison would be far more effective in a location where there is no thinness to the pattern, where one could not detect the DO's power. So perhaps Rand uses Callandor to channel the TP and using the three together makes a complete prison elsewhere (logic would suggest if there are places where the pattern is thin, there should be places where it is also thick.) Places that are untouched by chaos, such as the Two Rivers is where I would look for him making a new prison.
@IsharMorradChuain: Shayol Ghul is not the Dark One´s prison; he in imprisoned outside the Pattern, outside reality. Shayol Ghul is "the one place on earth where ´that thinness in the Pattern´ makes the Bore detectable" (WotWoT ch 4). If Rand is successful at reestablishing pre-Bore conditions the thinness will again be uniform: the scientists of the next AoL will perform their ill-fated experiment in their lab as did the scientist last AoL, there will be no reason to seek out a special location.
As for Two Rivers, don´t forget the time spans here: for all we know Two Rivers may have been sea bottom during AoL.
I'm thinking that the flaw in Callandor is that it also magnifies the TP held. In this way, Rand uses the True Power via link with Moridin, and uses it to seal DO prison. It has been said that Callandor magnifies taint on saidin, and the taint is probably another manifestation of TP.
@Nocterequiem: We've been told before that there are other ways to access the True Power besides getting the Dark One's permission; at least Jordan or Sanderson implied it. It is also possible that regardless his permission, Rand could draw it through the link to Moridin. Or, as Lslattimer stated, that Moridin and his control of the True Power is usurped by Nynaeve and Moiraine having control of Callandor's circle. Then it's a simple matter of the True Power being used to hold the Dark One back (so that no part of the One Power touches him) while the prison is fully sealed again.
As to your point about the Dark Prophecies, Jordan also went on record to state that they come true as well, not just the ones for the Light. Just because we don't know what it means doesn't mean it won't come true in some way. And actually a number of parts of the prophecy from TGH have come true. (The stuff about Luc and Isam, Rand giving his friends for sacrifice--he certainly came close to doing so, when using both Perrin and Mat--the focus on his hands referring to him losing one, the bits about the endless summer, the vermin and rot and disease, the Seanchan coming back and sending Arad Doman, Almoth Plain, and Tarabon into chaos.)
This just stuck out to me in my reread: In tDR, p555, What is Written in Prophecy, Be'lal says (referring to Callandor), "One of the most powerful sa'angreal WE ever made." Perhaps the "manufacturing flaw" was put there on purpose by an un-outed Darkfriend to allow a Forsaken to draw on all three powers, but once the "flaw" was discovered it was taken to safety where it couldn't be used as such. If Be'lal was the source of the manufacturing flaw, it makes sense that the first thing he did when he got out was to track down Callandor. If the other Forsaken think he might have extra knowledge about it, maybe that's why they let him hang out in Tear. Otherwise it makes no sense for what seems like one of the weaker Forsaken to have his power base near such an important item.
@Evekat: Interesting point. However I am pretty sure when he said "we" he meant Aes Sedai or users of the Power; for your in interpretation to be right, he'd have to mean that Shadow agents helped make a bunch of sa'angreal, not just Callandor. Don't forget that Be'lal was once a general for the Light, so he could still refer to his former allies as "we", and that having been from the Age of Legends he would feel an affinity for all Power users regardless of affiliation.
Also I'm not sure the others "let" him be in Tear, or that he was that weak. If he just happened to get to Tear before anyone else did, they wouldn't dare to go after him so long as he was near Callandor--such a battle could draw Rand to them, whom they weren't ready to face. And they needed him to draw Callandor before they could take it away, so it would be easier to let Be'lal be the fall guy, there to goad Rand and either die at his hands or get Callandor away from him--at which point they would have turned on him. Note also Ishamael's argument in TAR with Be'lal...this could have been about ordering him to Tear in order to obtain Callandor and kill Rand, and letting him know the other Forsaken would stay away until the task was accomplished, one way or the other.
As for being weak...I have my own theories about Be'lal that I won't get into it. ;)
@Evekat: Actually it sort of made sense. Be'lal, being a master manipulator, simply wanted to goad a simple, farmboy from handing a very powerful male sa'angreal (which is rare in that age) to him on a silver platter. He could have known the DR only just learnt to channel, and sought to beat him senseless. And he may have been weak, but the prospect of a sa'angreal that places him much above the other forsaken in terms of Power Strength, and the fact he has to deal with a greenhorn in the Power to get it, would have been attractive indeed.
@Cabadrin: Again maybe my squirrely ignorance showing, but I always thought of the Bore being the exact celestial location of the DO's prison for the simple fact that, the thinness of the pattern is what allowed them to detect the presence of the TP or the DO (I'm still not sure which one it was. However if the DO was not actually there, and he could be accessed equally well through any point in the pattern, why have the forsaken not freed him? Right now the pattern as a whole is thing indeed, the dead have been walking, etc. Even better is balefire, even Darkfriends are affraid of using it too much because of the damage it causes to the pattern. So after a large amount of balefire is used why don't the forsaken make a new hole into the DO's prison rather than trying to get through the already sealed entrance? Shouldn't they simply be able to bore into somewhere else in the pattern to free him?
@Nocterequiem: "Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized." - Hmm did you think the "he" might be the DO in this sense: The TP is a piece of the DO (at least if you believe LTT), therefore if the "he" is the DO can Rand with the right circle actually channel all of the DO thus neutralizing him and not allowing him a counterstroke like before.
@IsharMorradChuain: The Forsaken do not have the resourses of the scientists at Collam Daan, and except Mierin/Lanfear/Cyndane they are not scientists. A sorry lot, really. The top scientists, at the peak of AoL, only managed to open enough of a hole for the DO to touch the world. As the Heartstone Seals crumble, the Forsaken may at some point be able to remove LTT's patch, if Rand does not beat them to it.
Hey, so I have been doing some quick half attentive thinking regarding Callandor as I sit here and browse through random medical files all day, and I wanted to run some things by you.
1. Callandor is necessary for the last battle. Yes?
2.Rand's thoughts in the new Chap. 1 betray that he is planning to do something more permanent regarding the DO.
3. Now, as to the theory of scatterwater
3a. Makes sense in that half mad kind of way. A reverse weave for balefire should technically be possible. Especially in the idea that I have regarding Callandor.
4. Balefire is a bright white lance of nothing when created.
4a. It destroys anything and everything it touches. Unfortunate
4b. Would the reverse weave be able to counter it?
5. Callandor is the "sword of light"
5a. For some reason I feel that I read the light was ever shifting somewhere in the series. unsure (in an office without my books)
Okay, so forget the whole bullets thing.
I have imagined, ever since the introduction of balefire into the series by Moiraine and the obtaining of Callandor by Rand that the two are undoubtedly intertwined.
So what I am trying to get at, is that Callandor is a casing for Balefire. or possibly this scatterwater weave idea and balefire combined. that way, the two technically cancel each other out, unless a constant stream of the power would be fed to each weave in which case it would be a thread battle by the pattern. possibly a gigantic knot. what have you.
Damn I started babbling. Okay, so Callandor is filled with balefire. possibly TS balefire. I doubt that which source; saidin, saidar or the OS/TS should matter. It's simply balefire after all. An end to nothing. Which we already know has no end but new beginnings. SO if scatterwater (this idea is wholly new to me) were said to be real, then technically rand could infuse his being with the scatterwater weave (hence rebuilding his body), while simultaneously driving callandor into what is the DO and the resulting death of rand releasing the scatterwater with destruction of DO should revert the pattern to an almost purgatory state.
Okay, so I started babbling hardcore. Basically all I wanted to run by you and the other theorists is whether that made sense.
Ok, I signed up just to comment here, so if I do something wrong please tell me.
Here we go. We see that Callandor does not have 1 flaw, but a few, although it is always revered to as if having only one, which I take means these flaws are connected. 1) It allows a man to draw enough of the power to sever and/or kill himself while the rest have a buffer to prevent this- it has no limiter. 2) Callandor magnifies the taint -which is basically TP if you think about it. I think the absence of a limiter plus the fact that it is, according to me, a TP sa'angreal -whether a flaw caused by the Bore and haste on the AS's part or TP chanellers placed to create one and help the shadow- will be what allows Rand to kill or weaken the DO with the help of Fain.
Fain is an essential part of the end- he didnt go into the Blight to hunt Worms and drink tea with his trollocks. His power has been described to be at war with the taint in Rand's wound and we see it luring the taint away from saidin and causing the black hole that destroys Aridhol . In some theories I have read Fain's power is described as anti-matter to the TP. What happens when this anti-matter makes direct contact with the DO?
When the seals are broken there will be a split second, at least, where the DO will have full reach in Randland. But if Rand is drawing on the TP ignoring the limit then he will contain that breach to himself. While he is then linked to the DO, Fain cuts him - his blood is spilled - and Aridhol's poison can now travel through Rand's link to the DO. Rand won't release the link because then the DO can strike where he wants. If the link to the TP is a cord like what the link to saidin is, then that poison will have a 'physical' path that it can follow.
Rand is destroyed in a similar 'black hole' implosion as SL and Fain's poison has become like a taint on the TP, weakening the DO as it fights against him in an endless fight- IF it doesnt simply destroy him.
If the DO isnt dead, Logain - I name him because of that Min viewing of him achieving glory - or another Ashaman takes up callandor, links with Nynaeve + extra and seals the DO while he is distracted. This can also be the prophesy of the one that takes up callandor will follow him- follow him as the second person to seal the bore. The DO and the Aridhol evil eventualy form another implosion and then there wont be a "mysterious new source of power" for future AS to poke their stupid fingers into.
Side-note- I like the theory here that the onyx hand is prosthetic Rand uses, I have thought that myself- maybe he finds it in the White Tower's vaults and knows what it does.
Thats it, please give me your thoughts and enjoy my theory, even if there are plot holes I am sure. We can't know that some of this isn't right :D
I've been think about this and think that the New seal on the DO prison will be like what Rand did in WH to Cleanse Saidin the True Power from DO to be a framework that the forsaken or DO can weaken or eat away over time and the True Source and the power behind the Seal. also since any Cuendillar is made by either the male or female source that it will not be able to me used as the foci of the seal, that is where I feel Fain will come into it and as we can see from the wounds in Rand's side that the evil of the DO and the evil of Shadar Logoth fight against one another that when Rand goes into the PoD to confront the DO that fain will follow him down there to get revenge on both Rand and the DO thus making himself available to Rand to use the the focus point of the seal. Thoughts?
What makes the most sense to me is the most simple explanation. It has been hinted throughout the series that the only reason that Lews Therin failed is that he didn't have women to help seal the bore. The greatest works required men and women. So why not have everything hinge on a sa'angreal that is flawed so that it forces a man to link with women to fully control it? I don't think it is any more complicated than that. Callandor's flaw will wind up being what helps Rand do what Lews Therin could not.
Easiest Last Battle solution ever, using Callandor and the Amyrlin's wand in as large a circle the Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, Sea Folk and Asha'man can make, using both saidar and saidin blast the strongest possible pulse of balefire at Cyndane/Lanfear/Mierin and burn her out of the pattern to all the way back before she opened the Bore in the first place. The shock to the pattern might make it unravel completely, or save the pattern while raising new mountains for the sun to rise over, or even alter the earths rotation enough to make the sun rise again.
@cantstandnynaeve: Think of the scene in the apple orchard as everything blooms and the harvest comes in merely through his presence. Perhaps Rand is directly capable of channeling the True Source as a whole versus in part as is the case for everyone else. Because Rand can do this, he can also access the True Power without the DO's blessing.
Remember, Rand is Ta'veren, an agent for the pattern to set it right. The DO is the opposite, he wants to set chaos and destroy the pattern where possible. The apple orchard scene is just Rand's Ta'vereness on overdrive now that he has fully accepted his place in the pattern. He even states something like "only my presence holds him back" (srry dont have my book with me).
@Teilak: Easiest Last Battle solution ever, using Callandor and the Amyrlin's wand in as large a circle the Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, Sea Folk and Asha'man can make, using both saidar and saidin blast the strongest possible pulse of balefire at Cyndane/Lanfear/Mierin and burn her out of the pattern to all the way back before she opened the Bore in the first place. The shock to the pattern might make it unravel completely, or save the pattern while raising new mountains for the sun to rise over, or even alter the earths rotation enough to make the sun rise again.
Unfortunately something like that WOULD unravel the pattern. Burning out a central figure for thousands of years would annihilate everything. Not to mention the ramifications for this. If she never existed, the entire modern world wouldn't, therefore nothing would exist and the pattern wouldn't know what to do and it would just unravel. Balefire cannot be the answer. RJ has made it clear through the series that balefire is bad. For smaller problems such as shadowspawn it can be useful, but still dangerous. To balefire a ta'veren or imprtant character, especially with a blast as large as you are saying (we would be talking about Dragonball Z levels of blast) it would ruin everything.
@Dragon Tamer - I was trying to put that comment in from my phone and I've been having terrrible trouble with theoryland logging me in and out from my phone. As a result it only sent part of that post. Tho truth to be told it wasn't really the most enlightening post in the world. The part that got cut out was about me saying I've invested too much time reading and rereading this series to accept Sanderson taking the easiest possible cop out solution and then writing in plot twists such as the ones I said to fit the lines of the prophecies of Jordan. I also said that I was putting it in here because it was way too short to be posted as its own theory and for some reason the Last Battle post wouldn't load on my phone.
I thought of something like this but I think Mierin was put in the end of ToM for a reason. It's known that there must be two women for it to be wielded safely, so Rand may have to Rescue Mierin, then he, a female and a her will wield the three powers through the blade. I think she may be key to getting access to the true power. I agree with the more permanent solution part as well.
I think that Moiraine and Nynaeve will be the two women with Rand, Moirane asked in the TOG how to win. Rand now trusts Moiraine.
@MACSTER You mistake me. I didn't say the weren't true. I said that they didn't hold water. The significance of that dark prophecy is... negligible.
@ISHAR: I said "all that he is can be seized". I don't know if this refers to the DO or Rand as some sort of Creator made flesh, but I think that it is the case." I prefer to believe that the he refers to the DO, but I'm leaving my options open. I want to believe that Rand's source of the True Power comes from the Creator, not the DO. as Macster said, there are multiple paths to the TP. I think that Rand's pushing back the DO's hand(circle of clouds, apples, etc) is evidence for the Creator/Light source of Rand's TP. Then again, it may merely be his link to Moridin, but that seems less likely to me.
All of these "easiest" solutions are silly. Sanderson didn't write the ending. He incorporated Jordan's ending "basically in it's entirety", remember. Sanderson just filled in the gaps of the notes for the last three books.
Personally I don't think that the DO is something that can be killed. Those who are saying "Rand will use the Power on the DO" are just wrong. Think of Rand's moment on Dragonmount. RAND was the one who almost unraveled the Pattern, not the DO. Verin said that the DO doesn't work in a conventional manner. I think that the battle at Shayol Ghul will basically come down to Moridin. Since Rand didn't do what the DO wanted(kill the Pattern), Moridin will now become the DO's avatar, for lack of a better term. Just like Rand has basically become the avatar of Light. Graendal even says in the most recent book that Moridin sounds almost like the DO. Then look at the last section with Lanfear. She is being tortured by the DO. Rand runs into a pitch black room. It is mentioned about 7 times that the walls feel like bone, look like bone, the room is shaped like a bowl, like the inside of a skull. It's a not so subtle metaphor for the ephemeral nature of the DO.
Woman in blue on the cover could be Mierin. Woman in yellow is definitely Nynaeve.
"She's right, Lews Therin said suddenly. She? Rand asked. The pretty one. With the short hair. She says we need to break the seals. She's right. Rand froze, pulling Tai'daishar up short, ignoring the groom who had come to take the horse. To hear Lews Therin agreeing...
What do we do after that? Rand asked. We die. You promised we could die! Only if we defeat the Dark One, Rand said. You know that if he wins, there will be nothing for us. Not even death. Yes...nothing, Lews Therin said. That would be nice. No pain, no regret. Nothing.
Rand felt a chill. If Lews Therin began to think that way . . . No, Rand said, it wouldn't be nothing. He would have our soul. The pain would be worse, far worse.
Lews Therin began to weep. Lews Therin! Rand snapped in his mind. What do we do? How did you seal the Bore last time? It didn't work, Lews Therin whispered. We used saidin, but we touched it to the Dark One. It was the only way! Something has to touch him, something to close the gap, but he was able to taint it. The seal was weak! Yes, but what do we do differently? Rand thought."
A quote from TGS POV of LTT
When Lews Therin says, "Something has to touch him, something to close the gap" I think Rand will somehow use the Eelfinn and Aelfinn in some way to touch the DO or to enclose him.
As a proof we are hinted when Tuon is with Mat and is laughing at what she thinks as superstition in Randland, such as the concept of ta'veren. She makes a comment, I can't quote exactly, "What else? Do snakes and foxes live under old Hob's (the Dark One) hill (old Hob's hill- Shayol Ghul) and [kidnap children or something?]"
Since we are shown that other things that Tuon believes is superstition are real, there is evidence that the snakes and foxes have some sort of connection to the Dark One. This is also why, I think, asking the Aelfinn questions about the Shadow and DO are dangerous. The snakes and foxes could provide some sort of power to interact with the Dark One, willingly or not.
Moiraine could provide this information, that could be her part in saving the world.
What do you guys think? Some feedback on this theory would be appreciated.
To the Tower of Ghenjei: The Shadow Rising: "They [Aelfinn and Eelfinn] are not evil the way the Shadow is evil, yet they are so different from humankind they might as well be."
According to Birgitte, the Aelfinn and Eelfinn are not actually evil, just different. You are basing your theory upon superstition. You need more evidence to support that.
@Nocterequiem: Um...I'm not sure what the point you're trying to make is, then. If the Dark Prophecies are true, how do they not hold water? How is their significance negligible? Particularly when the one from TGH referenced very significant things--the endless summer, the vermin/rot/disease, Luc/Isam, and the return of the Seanchan? And it seems a bit presumptuous to assume you know which prophecies are significant and which are not, whether they will have any bearing on what happens. Clearly Luc/Isam and the Seanchan will be critical in AMoL, so there's nothing to say the other prophecies aren't also meaningful and significant. Again, we may not what what that meaning and significance is, but it seems all prophecies are as relevant and important as each other in the end. Not to mention, Moridin said the prophecy he showed Graendal was a Foretelling--and we know Foretellings always come true and are significant. Gitara's, Elaida's, Nicola's--they've all been important and come true, just not in the way people thought they would.
@Cheetaien: That's...an intriguing theory. Will require more thought.
SPOILERS - Memory of Light
This is a very insightful theory. And, it turns out to mirror a good bit of the ending.
But I have a huge problem with Callandor. A theory by Tremalking on Seed Singing the Bore shut noted that the AoL Aes Sedai did not fully understand what had happened with the Bore for decades. And even deep into the War of Power, LTT and friends did not know how to re-seal it.
Yet someone Callandor gets made with a rather deliberate flaw that allows for the channeling of the True Power. And this is key to the sealing of the Bore. And somehow Min figures this out, even know no written records from the AoL survive into the Third Age and, well, smart as she is, Min is not a Nobel Laureate or anything like that. And Rand, even with his LTT knowledge, admits he doesn't quite know what to do, except that he thinks using saidin, saidar, and the TP will somehow work.
Am I the only one to feel completely ripped off by this complete cop out of an ending? We get no real backstory on Callandor, which could have at least left us a hint at some point along the way that a very wise AS during the AoL figured out that this was what was needed to seal the Bore, only no one listened to him or he figured it out too late or whatever...
I read the Eye of the World in 1991; and AMoL was worth reading because it took so darn long. But as a whole, this series really needs to be reevaluated for it's failure to deliver a satisfying ending.
Maybe I am being too harsh...
Actually RJ said exactly how the flaw in Callandor originated, a simple manufacturing error. It was a mistake that flawed Callandor. Which makes even less sense...
@kamaul (#60): Actually, it makes perfect sense. When Callandor was created, LTT was aknowledged as The Dragon and was also Tavereen. What he needed at the time was a way to seal the bore - and the pattern provided him with one. Regardless of whether he could use the TP or not, a way to seal the bore was provided to him. He just didn't know it at the time.
Fast forward 3000 years, and The Dragon is once again in the world, only this time in the form of Rand. The means to seal to bore is still in the world (in the form of Callandor) but what he needs now is to be able to channel the True Power. Thus his decent into madness and the Shadow's attempts to turn him. And his link to Morridin provided him with the means to channel the True Power should he feel the need to do so. With Semirage's attempted collaring, it gave him the need.
The end to this series was very satisfying. Does anyone truly think that RJ wouldn't have ended it this way if he had been able to? This resolution to the flaw in Callandor was planned from the beginning, and was definitely in the notes that RJ left. To think otherwise is deluding yourself into thinking that RJ's legacy was tainted.