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ants To Be Apart of History

by Keith: 1998-09-07 | Not yet rated

Before Winter's Heart - Archive Only: What is Verin's 70 Year Plan?

A lot of people have been questioning the motives and identity of Verin Sedai. One theory stated that she might be either Corianna Sedai or the Forsaken Mesanna. I,however, disagree with both.

In TGH when Rand, Verin, and company are about to enter a Portal stone she makes a dramatic show as though she will activate it, obviously to make everyone feel calm so they wouldn't totally freak, but pulls Rand aside and tells him that he must do it because she is not powerful enough. She states 'I know my limitations'. Verin, knowing how uncomfortable Rand was about using his power, didn't want to make the whole company uneasy so she acted like it was she who activated the Stone. Now, if Verin were either Corianna Sedai or Mesanna, she should have been able to use the stone herself without reservation. It seems rather unlikely that she would lie about her strength in the power since Rand, at that time, knew little of such things and since Rand's unskilled manner might have gotten them killed.

I would also like to say that I do not believe Verin is Black Ajah. Moiraine only warned Rand against her because she wants him to know that just because an Aes Sedai comes up with a way to battle the Dark One it might not be the best way. Along these lines she states something like 'We(the AS) have made the world dance to your tune for a thousand years now we have to listen to you.' Moiraine only meant that Aes Sedai are not always right even when they mean well.

Also one person said that he thinks Verin gave Egwene the Ter'angreal so Liandrin and the Black Ajah would capture her in the dream world and I sincerely doubt that since there was no such event. In TDB Liandrin merely smiles at Egwene to let her know that she is on to her little Dreaming and to intimidate her. If Verin were Black Ajah she would only have given Egwene this new tool against the Dark One if it were a trap and since there was no trap, Verin is not Black Ajah.

On a brief note I would like to say that being suspicious of Verin is like being suspicious of a mother. She didn't have to admit to Moiraine and Siuan that she knew of Rand's identity. She could have kept it to herself. Letting them know what she knew, only took away an advantage she might have had. Verin also protected Rand throughout Book 2. At that time he didn't know enough about his power so Verin could have easily carted him off to shayol Ghul. If she were Mesanna she could have used Compulsion on him, but she didn't. Instead,she protected him.

It is important to remember that when Verin told Moiraine and Siuan that she knew who Rand was, the Black Ajah did not yet know which of the Edmond's Fielders was the Dragon. This is evident from Liandrin's first meeting with Rand in TGH. Liandrin who was high enough in the Black Ajah to lead a group in Be'lal's support would probably have been told about Rand's identity if Verin were in the Black Ajah. Also if Verin were so carefully hidden within the Black trying to gain Rand's trust, would she have thrown away all her time spent with him in Books 2&3 on a pitiful attempt to shield him with Alanna. I think not.

To conclude I think people are reading too much into what Verin is supposedly scheming. I think that she believes she knows better than Rand and even other AS on how to deal with certain situations. A knowlege loving Brown, Verin is excited to be part of history and wants to play a major role helping, not hindering the Dragon.

Besides, considering the arrogant way Rand's been acting since book 6, he needs someone to steer him out of trouble.
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Comments

1

Tamyrlin: 1998-09-07

All, excellent points about why Verin might not have any sinister plan in mind, and that she might just be a nice Brown trying to be apart of history and help all she can. But do you really believe that any Aes Sedai doesn't have some personal plan of her own? That just any Aes Sedai would come up to the Amyrlin Seat and tell her that she knows all about the plans that Moiraine and Suian had been making for twenty years. That this innocent old lady merely gave a precious ter'angreal to a NOVICE, because she wanted to help her learn of the dream world and become a dreamer. That Moiraine, in her last words would mention Verin and Alviarin as two people not to trust when Rand hasn't seen Verin since TGH. That Verin is just very in tune when she asks Perrin when he is going to make his decision and give up the axe for the hammer? Of course every Aes Sedai leaves their Warder behind, dissappearing in the night supposedly on an assignment from Moiraine. And she just happens to know about Portal Stones and of course the symbol for Toman Head. Really, there is to much evidence presented to us to not be suspicious of Verin. Just a thought.

2

Keith: 1998-09-18

I am very sorry that I have gone against the 'big conspiracy around Verin' idea. At the end of my letter you have stated many areas that you feel show that Verin is indeed part of some big plot and I want to give my opinion of your crude examples used to prove me wrong.

I do believe that Verin has a personal plan and I have stated quite openly, I believe, that it is to help Rand as best she can. This includes doing things that she THINKS are going to help him. Moiraine warned against this because what an AS THINKS to be good for Rand's cause might actually HINDER Rand. After all AS are normal people and can make mistakes just like anyone else.

I believe the ONLY reason Moiraine mentioned Verin along with Alviarin in her letter was to have a contrast between one AS that Rand might trust (Verin) with one that is already be suspicious of (Alviarin). Thereby she meant be suspicious of all AS EQUALLY, NOT Verin in particular. If Moiraine suspected something horrible about Verin ie Black Ajah or a covert Forsaken, I do not see how she would fail to warn Rand more strongly against her since Rand's well-being was Moiraine's life goal. Note that she did not say anything definite in the letter ie don't trust Verin. All she said was be suspicious of ALL AS included the only other one(Verin)that he might trust. I believe firmly that since Moiraine thought she was going to die, she would have told Rand if she had even an ounce of sinister supicion on Verin. To say Moiraine conveyed this much meaning in a minutely cryptic clause of her letter,goes against the very essence of Moiraine's character. Before the point of her death, she would have exposed suspicions, if she had any, on a potentially concealed threat that Rand didn't see. Unless of course, you believe that Moiraine herself was a Black Ajah and not simply 'doing all she could to help.'

You also make a huge point on how Verin gave a NOVICE a ter'angreal. Well she did that because at the core of Verin's character she is fascinated by knowledge. This is rather mundane, I know, compared with a big conspiracy plot but when she gave Egwene that Ter'angreal she did so to help her and also she was excited that the Dreaming Talent had resurfaced. She did it to help Egwene and you have not proven to me in the slightest how giving her the Ter'angreal proved dangerous. Since Verin knew that Siuan was sending Egwene after the Black Ajah, Verin decided that the best way to help was to give Egwene a new tool to use against Liandrin. The simple fact is, one that I can not understand why no one else sees it, that nothing bad happened to Egwene in the dream world and therefore Verin was not planning a sabotage. Liandrin even revealed herself to Egwene in the Dream world and if she were conspiring with Verin to set this whole thing up, don't you think the Liandrin would have snapped a trap on Egwene in the Dream world? Because NOTHING happened to Egwene Verin never gave it to her with sinister intent. It is as simple as that!! If Verin had had sinister intent, why would she even have shown Egwene her scar on her arm? She could have let her think that nothing affects the real world in the Dream world and then pled ignorant latter. On this major point, I do not understand how anyone can argue against this.

You also say ' Of course every AS leaves in the middle of the night without her Warder on a Mission from Moiraine'. Well last time I checked AS did not have to check in with their Warders for permission to do things. Perhaps Verin had a suspicion about her Warder-- now there's a conspiracy I might actually believe. Black Ajah Warders.

IN TGH when Verin knows about the Portal Stones and the Symbol for Toman Head, you ask, how can she know this since not every AS knows about these things. You're right not every AS knows about these things but Verin is Brown Ajah and has studied many things. She states in TGH 'The Brown Ajah knows many things that other AS do not' and she is absolutely right. One thing I have a big problem with WOT is that it appears that for thousands of years after the Age of Legends there were nothing but ignorant Aes Sedai until the advent of Elayne, Nynaeve and Egwene who were so smart that they discovered how to make ter'angreals and unstill people. What were the Brown and even White Ajahs doing all that time? Apparently nothing useful.

Anyway, getting back to my argument I still think that if Verin were so Sinister she would have concealed her knowledge about Rand from Moiraine and Siuan and used it to her advantage. If you Tamyrlin were a member of the Black Ajah or a Forsaken and knew who the Dragon was, would you blab what you know to some AS who could potentially cause trouble for you. I think not. Of course, I believe that AS have personal motives for things but I believe that Verin's is quite clearly stated in my letter.

Besides, if I had to have a conspiracy about Black Ajah I would revolve it around Alanna. She is the one who bonded Rand for no apparent reason and Verin warned Perrin quite explicately about her.

The only conspiracy that would cause me to ponder is the idea of a secret society within the Ajah's. --stuff to consider.

3

Tamyrlin: 1998-09-18

Touche(sp?)my friend. Where to begin...my use of sinister plan was partially incorrect to what I really believe of Verin. Black Ajah..no, sinister..no, saint..no, follower..no, conspiracy..no, secrets..don't we all. You have touched on a point that I would like to reiterate, we both believe "that Verin has a personal plan." Was she trying to help Egwene..no, her deliberate decision not to give Egwene the papers that might have helped her traverse and understand the dream world better, and to have thought about burning them doesn't exactly portray a nice old lady who only wants Egwene to excel. But is doesn't say that she is BA. Was Egwene injured going to the Dream World..no. But she and the rest were watched from day one by the Forsaken who tracked their every move. Verin's fault..no, but it still occurred. But instead of fighting the points that might incriminate her, I would rather finish with agreement that Verin is in this only to complete or achieve a plan that has been in the makings for 70 years. Anything that must be done to accomplish this plan I think she will do. I agree, the secret society within the Ajahs is an attractive idea, although I would say it is more complex than that.