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arrier Degradation

by Callandor: 2005-08-07 | 7.67 out of 10 (30 votes)

Previous Categories: Who is the other person in Rand's head?

One of the big mysteries, riddles, questions, whatever you wish to categorize it as, of the series is: what the heck is going on in Rand's head? This implies a lot more questions: Is Rand mad? How does Rand know what he knows? Who is Lews Therin? Is he real? What is going to happen to him?

This is an attempt to explain those questions (and maybe a few others not listed, who knows).

What is going on in Rand's head?

Well, to begin, let's answer the first sub-question, then get back to this one.

Is Rand mad?

Unequivocally, yes, Rand is mad to some degree. He's been channeling for over two years now, and massive degrees of channeling at that. If the taint isn't causing some degree of madness in him by now it probably never will (and we know it does).

Yes, Rand is mad. But just because he is mad does not mean we cannot puzzle out what is going on with him.

So, back to the main question, what is going on in Rand's head?

Well, since Rand is mad, how do we know what is considered "normal"? Or, what makes Rand different/abnormal from anyone else? Not a lot. But the main thing in regards to the question in hand, is that Rand has memories/knowledge that he should not have. To name names, he should not know some of the things he pulls out of his behind to save his skin (examples being a vast amount of his channeling weaves like balefire, the lightning-seeking weave used to kill Shadowspawn in The Shadow Rising, Skimming in The Shadow Rising, Traveling in The Fires of Heaven, and his impenetrable shield in The Path of Daggers, and there are many references to Rand exclaiming that he generally does not know what he's doing until he does it).

But we've seen this before. Namely Nynaeve has discovered balefire on her own by apparently no outside memories/knowledge at all. Aviendha has discovered Traveling all on her own with apparently no outside memories/knowledge. Even Egwene has discovered smaller things on her own with no outside memories/knowledge, when she can suddenly tie off flows in The Dragon Reborn (not unknown knowledge, but something just out of the blue).

But there is a correlation in these examples: all of them are in fact sparkers. Rand, Aviendha, Nynaeve, and Egwene. All born with the spark. So, one could say that this is just a case of wilder tricks, or in some fashion that wilders are the key to new discoveries/re-discoveries. Could very well indeed.

However, with Rand we have another anomaly: he has distinct memories from another lifetime. I'll use that phrasing again, distinct memories. These are shown ad nauseam from The Fires of Heaven until Crossroads of Twilight, and that limit is only remarked upon because as far as the information we have that is the end of the series (I'm not saying it is of course, just that that is where we have the facts until).

Some examples:

**TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 2 - Rhuidean

Ilyena never flashed her temper at me when she was angry with herself. When she gave me the rough side of her tongue, it was because she. . . His mind froze for an instant. He had never met a woman named Ilyena in his life. But he could summon up a face for the name, dimly; a pretty face, skin like cream, golden hair exactly the shade of Elayne's. This had to be the madness. Remembering an imaginary woman. Perhaps one day he would find himself having conversations with people who were not there.**

**TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 6 - Gateways

"You were always ambitous, Mierin." His voice grated in his ears. "Why do you think I turned away from you? It wasn't Ilyena, whatever you like to think. You were out of my heart long before ever I met her. Ambition is all there is to you. Power is all you ever wanted. You disgust me!"

...

Rand's face was like rock; he hoped it hid his shock. He had no idea where his words had come from, but it seemed he could remember her. A dim memory, from before. I am not Lews Therin Telamon! "I am Rand al'Thor!" he said harshly.**

**TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 6 - Gateways

"Why would Rahvin choose now to attack me? Asmodean says he looks to his own interests, that he'll sit to one side even in the Last Battle, if he can, and wait for the Dark One to destroy me. Why not Sammael, or Demandred? Asmodean says they hate me." Not me. They hate Lews Therin. But to the Forsaken, that was the same thing. Please, Light, I am Rand al'Thor. He pushed away a sudden memory of this woman in his arms, both of them young and just learning what they could do with the Power. I am Rand al'Thor! "Why not Semirhage, or Moghedien, or Graen-?"**

**TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 20 - Jangai Pass

Like Mar Ruois. He tried to shake the thought away, but in his head he could see that great city after it was retaken, immense towers blackened and collapsing, the remains of great bonfires at every street crossing, where those who had refused to swear to the Shadow had been bound and thrown alive to the flames. He knew whose memory it had to be, though he had not discussed it with Moiraine. I am Rand al'Thor. Lews Therin Telamon is dead three thousand years. I am myself! That was one battle he meant to win. If he did have to die at Shayol Ghul, he would die as himself. He made himself think of something else.**

**TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 22 - Birdcalls by Night

After a long silence, Asmodean said quietly, "I never knew that." "What I want to know is, why?" Rand chose his words carefully, hoping that they were all his. He remembered Sammael's face, a man-Not mine. Not my memory-a compact man with a short yellow beard. Asmodean had described all the Forsaken, but he knew this image was not made from that description. Sammael had always wanted to be taller, and resented it that the Power could not make him so. Asmodean had never told him that. "From what you've told me, he is not likely to want to face me unless he is sure of victory, and maybe not then. You said he'd likely leave me to the Dark One, if he could. So why is he sure he'll win now, if I decide to go after him?"**

(The part "Not mine. Not my memory," is of course Rand talking to himself)

**TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 44 - The Lesser Sadness

Vaguely it seemed that there had been no attack after.. . After what? He recalled countering Sammael's last move with something particularly nasty, but he could not pull the memory to the surface. Not balefire. Mustn't use that. Threatens the fabric of the Pattern. Not even for Ilyena? I would burn the world and use my soul for tinder to hear her laugh again.**

**TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 52 - Choices

Heartbeats only. Three steps she had taken when Rand seized the male half of the True Source, molten steel and steel-shattering ice, sweet honey and midden heap. Deep in the Void, the fight for survival was distant, the battle before him scarely less. As Moiraine vanished beneath the wagon, he channeled, pulling the heat from Lanfear's fires, sinking it into the river. Flames that a moment before engulfed human forms, vanished. In the same instant he wove the flows again, and a misty gray dome came into being, a long oval enclosing him and Lanfear and most of the wagons, an almost transparent wall that shut out all not already within. Even as he tied the weave, he was not sure what it was or where it had come from-some memory of Lews Therin's perhaps-but Lanfear's fires struck it and stopped. He could see people outside dimly, too many thrashing and flailing-he had taken the flames, not the searing of flesh; that stench still hung in the air-but none would burn now that had not already. Bodies lay inside, too, mounds of charred cloth, some stirring feebly, moaning. She did not care; her channeled flames winked out; the gnats were dispelled; she never glanced aside.**

**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 11 – Lessons and Teachers

With a bitter laugh he released the Power again and knelt there. He had been so sure. Only two Aes Sedai. Of course he could handle them; he had handled Egwene and Elayne together. What could they possibly do to him? He realized he was still laughing. He did not seem able to stop. Well, it was funny. His fool pride. Overconfidence. It had gotten him in trouble before, and more than him. He had been so sure he and the Hundred Companions could seal the Bore safely....

Leaves crackled as he forced himself to his feet. “That was not me!” he said hoarsely. “That was not me! Get out of my head! All of you get out of my head!” Lews Therin's voice murmured indistinctly, distantly. Alanna waited silently, patiently, in the back of his head. The voice seemed afraid of her.**

**TITLE: Crown of Swords, CHAPTER: 7 - Pitfalls and Tripwires

The wine punch tasted of plums. Rand could remember fat sweet plums from the orchards across the river when he was young, climbing the trees to pick them himself.... Tilting his head back, he drained the goblet. There were plum trees in the Two Rivers, but no orchards of them, and certainly not across any river. Keep your bloody memories to yourself, he snarled at Lews Therin. The man in his head laughed at something, giggling quietly to himself.**

There are of course more examples, but don't want to berate a known fact.

So, Rand has memories from a past life. Big deal. Well, he's not supposed to. People are not supposed to have those memories. Heroes of the Horn are not supposed to know who they are/were. I say Heroes of the Horn, because we know for sure that they are not supposed to, but it can easily, and it's so much a certainty it's unbelievable it hasn't been stated, apply to every soul reborn. People simply do not know who they once were or who they "truely" are.

This is shown by Birgitte's experiences:

**TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 52 - Need

Nynaeve shivered, fear warring with the anger that let her contain the Power. Moghedien. Lanfear. This woman spoke so casually of the Forsaken. "Birgitte, what did Moghedien promise you?"

"She knew what I was, even though I did not. How, I do not know." Birgitte glanced at Cain; he appeared absorbed in his sword, but she lowered her voice anyway. "She promised to make me weep alone for as long as the Wheel turns. She said it as a fact that simply had not happened yet."**

**TITLE: The Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 14 - Meetings

If Birgitte was right, then somewhere in the world a boychild had been born, a mewling babe with no knowledge of who he was, yet destined for adventures that would make new legends. The Wheel wove the heroes into the Pattern as they were needed, to shape thc Pattern, and when they died they returned here to wait again. That was what it meant to be bound to the Wheel. New heroes could find themselves bound so as well, men and women whose bravery and accomplishments raised them far above the ordinary, but once bound, it was forever.**

Birgitte in her re-incarnation in the Age of Legends had no idea that she was a Hero of the Horn. She did not know she was Birgitte reborn in the Real World. This is furthered by her assertion about Gaidal Cain. This is obviously the norm; unless of course you wish to say that Rand is the only normal exception in knowing who he once was in a world in which no one knows who they once were let alone which soul they are reborn ;).

(Even if this only applies to Heroes, it still applies to Rand, since the Dragon is a Hero of the Horn:

**Q: "Is this soul born in any other age, or only at the advent and the closing of the Third Age, as The Dragon/TDR?"

A: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age.**)

So, what causes this? How do people not know? There must be something blocking the past life from the present life. There must be a barrier. And, we know it exists. Evidence comes from, again, Birgitte:

**TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 52 - Need

"I am Birgitte," the woman said, leaning on her bow. "At least, that is the name you would know. And the lesson might have been yours, here as surely as in the Three-fold Land. I remember the lives I have lived as if they were books well- read, the longer gone dimmer than the nearer, but I remember well when I fought at Lews Therin's side. I will never forget Moghedien's face, any more than I will forget the face of Asmodean, the man you almost disturbed at Rhuidean."**

**TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 14 - Meetings

"Four days and three," Nynaeve muttered. She and Elayne had been coming to speak with Birgitte as often as they could, though too frequently it had not been possible with Thom and Juilin sharing the camp and standing night guard. Birgitte actually remembered the War of Power, one lifetime of it anyway, and the Forsaken. Her past lives were like books fondly remembered from long ago, the more distant dimmer than the nearer, but the Forsaken stood out. Especially Moghedien.**

Going off of what Birgitte has explained, when people are reborn (or it could be once they die -- it really doesn't matter as long as you agree that there is a barrier put in place at some point in time), there seems to be a barrier that seperates past and their soon to be current life. This is how Birgitte's past lives can be seperate and distinct, like seperate books.

Further evidence, comes from Rand himself:

**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 3 - A Woman's Eyes

He hesitated, heron-branded palm stroking his long sword hilt. He had no idea what a gholam was. Lews Therin had not stirred, but he knew that was the source of the name. Bits and pieces sometimes drifted across whatever thin barrier lay between him and that voice, and became part of Rand's memories, usually without anything to explain them. It happened more often, lately. The fragments were not something he could fight, like the voice. The hesitation lasted only a moment.**

**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 21 - To Shadar Logoth

Duty is heavier than a mountain, death lighter than a feather. Lews Therin had to have that from him—memories passed both ways across that barrier, it seemed—but it cut to the heart.**

There is the barrier mentioned exactly, and this one can easily be seen to refer to it in context:

**TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 43 - This Place, This Day

A memory slid across the emptiness. Not his; Lews Therin's. For once he did not care. In an instant he channeled, and a ball of fire enveloped the top of a hill nearly five miles away, a churning mass of pale yellow flame. When it faded, he could see without the looking glass that the hill was lower now, and black at the crest, seemingly melted. Between the three of them, there might be no need for the clans to fight Couladin at all.**

So, now we are getting somewhere. Everyone has a barrier seperating their past and present lives. Yet, Rand has memories clearly from his past life. What's going on?

Well, we've reached that point. Everything stated above, I feel, should be taken as established fact off of the books, without contention. When I have engaged in this discussion previously, that was granted; hopefully, it shall be repeated.

From now I feel people can bring up a valid arguement to this theory. Of course, if people wish to object to the above, I will discuss it, but I will state now (and do not take this for arrogance) that I feel said objections to be useless.

Now to discuss how Rand knows what he knows, who is Lews Therin, and is he real.

Some pre-assumptions (basic facts that somehow get disagreements):

1. Lews Therin is dead. He died at the spot of Dragonmount 3500+ years ago, we "saw" this happen in the books in the Prologue of The Eye of the World.

2. His soul was reborn as Rand al'Thor. This of course is the key facet to this entire series: Lews Therin was the Dragon; Rand al'Thor is the Dragon Reborn. Can't help but see that as crytal clear ;)

3. Time keeps moving forward in the series. By that, I mean when one event happens, time keeps moving, the Pattern keeps weaving, forward. It's not that there is a present in which Rand is living out this story that we read, and Lews Therin is hanging around 3500+ years in the past still living. Doesn't work like that. Time keeps moving forward after events happen.

Those three, again, I feel are easily taken as facts, but list your disagreements if you have them (hopefully you have none).

Now to the meat. To the theory!

How does Rand know what he knows?

Good question. This is of course linked to the above facts I have presented, and of course, going by the title, dealing specificallly with the barrier between past and present lives.

As established, everyone who is reborn by the Wheel (or if you wish to maintain an incredibly picky perspective, Heroes of the Horn reborn) has a barrier between past a present lives. Somewhere between the death they experienced in their past life, and the time that their soul is put back into a new fetus to be called "reborn," a barrier has been placed to keep those past memories and experiences seperate and distinct (exactly like Birgitte's "books") from their new life which is going to accumulate new memories and experiences.

So, how does this pertain to Rand? Well, at first, it doesn't. Not a bit. At the start of the series, Rand is absolutely no different from anyone else in the world. He has no idea that his soul is the same soul that was once in the body of Lews Therin; he has no memories from his past life as Lews Therin; he has no knowledge of any mystical re-discovered channeling weaves. He is, for all intensive purposes, normal.

Compared to Rand in Crossroads of Twilight, it's a joke to say he was once normal, but he was.

What changed this, in my opinion, is a number of things. But the overwhelming factor was the taint on saidin.

Proposal: The main cause of what is wrong with Rand, from memories of past lives, to knowledge he should not have, and even to Lews Therin, is due to the taint degrading the barrier between Rand's past and present lives.

Immediately, people like to disagree. We have no basis that the taint degrades the barrier between past and present lives. I say that we do: Rand. Of course that doesn't fly over too well ;)

But we do have the fact that the taint on saidin is "corrosive." This is proven, by the Ways:

TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 45 - What Follows in Shadow

"The Aes Sedai rubbed her fingers against her palms distastefully. "You feel the taint, the corruption of the Power that made the Ways. I will not use the One Power in the Ways unless I must. The taint is so strong that whatever I tried to do would surely be corrupted."

The taint of the Ways is so corrosive that it has degraded parts of the bridges and Islands:

TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 45 - What Follows in Shadow

"This explains much," Moiraine said softly, "and it makes me afraid. So much. I should have guessed. The taint, the decay. I should have guessed."

TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 45 - What Follows in Shadow

"It could not pass," Moiraine said. "I thought it could not; I hoped it could not. Faugh!" She tossed her staff on the ground and scrubbed her hand on her cloak. Char, thick and black, marked the staff for over half its length. "The taint corrupts everything in that place."

The Ways, having been made with saidin, are tainted. They are degrading away, in a very specific way:

TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 44 - The Dark Along the Ways

"Rand wondered what held the bridge up. The horses' hooves made a gritty sound, as if bits of stone flaked off at every step. Everything he could see was covered with shallow holes, some tiny pinpricks, others shallow, rough-edged craters a stride across, as if there had been a rain of acid, or the stone was rotting. The guardwall showed cracks and holes, too. In places it was gone altogether for as much as a span. For all he knew the bridge could be solid stone all the way to the center of the earth, but what he saw made him hope it would stand long enough for them to reach the other end. Wherever that is."

Remember and make note of how the taint degrades things: like an acid.

And then there is the "rotting" disease which is known to be caused by the taint:

TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: GLOSSARY

"One Power, the: The power drawn from the True Source. The vast majority of people are completely unable to learn to channel the One Power. A very small number can be taught to channel, and an even tinier number have the ability inborn. For these few there is no need to be taught; they will touch the True Source and channel the Power whether they want to or not, perhaps without even realizing what they are doing. This inborn ability usually manifests itself in late adolescence or early adulthood. If control is not taught, or self-learned (extremely difficult, with a success rate of only one in four), death is certain. Since the time of Madness, no man has been able to channel the Power without eventually going completely, horribly mad; and then, even if he has learned some control, dying from a wasting sickness which causes the sufferer to rot alive-a sickness caused, as is the madness, by the Dark One's taint on saidin. For a woman the death that comes without control of the Power is less horrible, but it is death just the same. Aes Sedai search for girls with the inborn ability as much to save their lives as to increase Aes Sedai numbers, and for men with it in order to stop the terrible things they inevitably do with the Power in their madness. See also channel; Time of Madness; True Source."

So, we know that the taint can affect physical things: the Ways, and a male channeler. So, why is it out of the line to assume it can also affect metaphysical things as well? In this case it would obviously be the barrier. I myself find it highly suspect since the taint is what I would consider a metaphysical object/substance/thing anyway (but getting in that kind of a definition could be tricky and I feel useless). In either case, the taint breaks things down. We know it comes into contact with channelers. So, where is it out of line to assume it affects this barrier?

Well, let's say that it does affect the barrier. What would happen? I feel, the degredation would be just like the Ways. And herein we enter into the tricky part of theories: analogies.

An analogy that I like, seems counter-intuitive. Imagine a jar. Inside the jar, are the present life's memories. The lid, the "barrier", is the cap over them. The "air" outside the the jar, are all the past lives' memories.

How you wish to designate for multiple past memories, I myself haven't fully settled on (is it many jars standing on top of the other with the lids touching? I don't know, I just feel it's a complication and it's best to deal with the simplicity of this for now).

We then apply what we suppose, to what we know.

Say you take an eyedropper and you sprinkle some acid (the taint obviously) droplets in a random way. What happens? The same thing in the Ways -- holes appear, small at first, but with more and more dropplets, larger and larger holes begin to show.

Eventually the holes will break through the lid, and then you can have leakage of memories from past lives into present lives.

So you have Rand al'Thor, first starting out touching saidin, and realizing nothing is going on really. But, as he channels more and more saidin, specifically at the points where he is allowed access to an angreal, sa'angreal or using it more, the more taint enters his body, and more "acid dropplets" fall on the "lid" and more memories can cross the barrier.

Go back and read the three quotes I gave above about the barrier from Rand's POV. He remarks about the barrier being "thin" and the memories "moving" into him.

From The Shadow Rising until Crossroads of Twilight, there appears to be a correlation that supports this notion.

When did Lews Therin first "appear"? Undoubtedly, the first "sign" of what eventually would be Lews Therin appeared in The Shadow Rising, when Lanfear reveals herself to Rand:

TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 9 - Decisions

"And you loved power!" For a moment he felt dazed. The words sounded true-he knew they were true-but where had they come from?**

Seemingly innocent, but true. Facts Rand should not have about Lanfear, that he does now.

Ask yourself. What was the major event that happened previous to The Shadow Rising (and of course this event)? Rand took, and used, Callandor. Callandor is what? One of the most powerful sa'angreal ever made! Given to who? One of the most powerful channelers on the planet (granted, not a full strength then, but still powerful).

Rand was channeling immense amounts of saidin through Callandor in his battle with Ishamael. Much more than he, and many other male channelers, had ever used at that point in time. All that saidin means a lot of taint. All that taint entering into Rand, and all those acid droplets on Rand's barrier.

And what happens soon after this? Rand has his first encounter with what he should not know. Coincidence? Unlikely.

That's not to say that what Rand had channeled previously throughout The Eye of the World to The Dragon Reborn before taking Callandor wasn't adding to this (except for the actual using of the Eye of the World -- pure saidin); it was degrading the barrier, but not on the level great enough to allow the memories of past lives to cross over the barrier.

To continue with this correlation, Rand uses Callandor again soon after his run in with Lanfear. Something mysterious also happens then:

TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 10 - The Stone Stands

"Now. The thought floated like cackling laughter on the rim of his awareness. He severed the flows rushing out of him, leaving the think still whirling, whinning like a drill on bone. Now."

These two "nows" are thoughts in Rand's head. They could very well be Rand himself speaking, but it makes it decidedly odd that it's on the rim of his awareness. It's far more interesting if it is indeed the first spark of Lews Therin speaking, especially in relation to what Rand is doing.

**TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 10 - The Stone Stands

"And the lightnings came, flashing out along the ceiling left and right like silver streams. A Myrddraal stepped out of a side corridor, and before it could take a second step half a dozen flaring streaks struck it down, blasting it apart. The other streams flowed on, fanning down every branching of the corridor, replaced by more and more erupting every second."

Matching what Lews Therin did:

"TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: Prologue - Dragonmount

"The palace still shook occasionally as the earth rumbled in memory, groaned as if it would deny what had happened. Bars of sunlight cast through rents in the walls made motes of dust glitter where they yet hung in the air. Scorch-marks marred the walls, the floors, the ceilings. Broad black smears crossed the blistered paints and gilt of once-bright murals, soot overlaying crumbling friezes of men and animals, which seemed to have attempted to walk before the madness grew quiet. The dead lay everywhere, men and women and children, struck down in attempted flight by the lightings that had flashed down every corridor, or seized by the fires that had stalked them, or sunken into stone of the palace, the stones that had flowed and sought, almost alive, before stillness came again. In odd counterpoint, colorful tapestries and paintings, masterworks all, hung undisturbed except where bulging walls had pushed them awry. Finely carved furnishings, inlaid with ivory and gold, stood untouched except where rippling floors had toppled them. The mind twisting had struck at the core, ignoring peripheral things."

Another piece of knowledge that he should not know, which just happens to be a piece of knowledge that Lews Therin knew and used previously, and it just happens to occur when Rand is using Callandor, channeling vast amounts of saidin, and having vast amounts of the taint enter into him. And, having a lot of degradation on his barrier.

Those two events would, in my opinion, be roughly what a normal person channeling would take into themselves in about 5-10 years. That amount in roughly a month of time.

Throughout the rest of The Shadow Rising, there isn't much else though. The next semi-major thing is with Rand remembering how to Skim at the very end of The Shadow Rising, after aquiring an angreal and traveling via Portal Stones, but in relation to what has been channeled before to that, it's not terribly a lot, but enough to comment on.

So, what happens in The Fires of Heaven? To be blunt, a heck of a lot. First and foremost, we have the first absolutely confirmed beginnings of Lews Therin, which I have already quoted above:

**TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 2 - Rhuidean

Ilyena never flashed her temper at me when she was angry with herself. When she gave me the rough side of her tongue, it was because she. . . His mind froze for an instant. He had never met a woman named Ilyena in his life. But he could summon up a face for the name, dimly; a pretty face, skin like cream, golden hair exactly the shade of Elayne's. This had to be the madness. Remembering an imaginary woman. Perhaps one day he would find himself having conversations with people who were not there.**

This is so big it outshines the other two mysterious things that happen in this chapter: the "little sister" comment made by Rand, and his reference to being buried in a "Can Breat". These are along the lines of the "you loved power" slips of knowledge that Rand made in The Shadow Rising. We have a whole new development to deal with instead.

By The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 2, Rand for all classification has Lews Therin in his head. Mark it on your calanders ;) So the main question is: how'd he get there?

Well, a question to answer that question: what happened at the end of The Shadow Rising? A very big event.

Rand and Asmodean in Rhuidean used the male Choedan Kal -- the most powerful sa'anreal in the world (tied or whatever, but you get my point). Of course, there is a difference:

**TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 58 - The Traps of Rhuidean

Vaguely Rand was aware of a great, half-buried statue in far-off Cairhien, of the huge crystal sphere in its hand, glowing like the sun, pulsing with the One Power. And the Power in him surged up like all the seas of the world in storm. With this surely he could do anything; surely he could even have Healed that dead child. The taint swelled as much, curling round every particle of him, seeping into every crevice, into his soul. He wanted to howl; he wanted to explode. Yet he only held half what that sa'angreal could deliver; the other half filled Asmodean.**

(Also like to point out the nice quote about the taint "seeping" into his soul, but that's ambiguous, but interesting nonetheless)

Rand was only using half the output of the sa'angreal. Oh well! It's the most powerful one in the world! Half of the power is easily equal to, and I would say surpassing by a great deal, of Callandor's maximum output.

Added to this, seeming small in the comparison, Rand uses his angreal again to cut Asmodean off from the Dark One, and he also uses it to create a great rift or of the like down Rhuidean (which allowed the lake to form eventually). All together, with every instance Rand has channeled so far, I would place him easily has channeling more than any other male channeler in the entire 3rd Age. It's that much of saidin that he's used, and that much of the taint he has brought into himself.

And what happens soon after? Lews Therin first appears.

Throughout The Fires of Heaven, Lews Therin and memories, not just slips (though a few more do happen), occur more and more. With this, throughout The Fires of Heaven, you have Asmodean constantly teaching Rand;

**TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 21 - The Gift of a Blade

Before approaching, he reached out through the angreal in his coat pocket to seize saidin. There was no need to actually touch the carving of the fat little man with a sword, of course. Mingled filth and sweetness filled him, that raging river of fire, that crushing avalanche of ice. Channeling as he had done every night since leaving Rhuidean, he set wards around the entire encampment, not only what was in the pass but every tent in the hills below as well, and on the slopes of the mountains. He needed the angreal to, set wardings so large, but only just. He had thought that he was strong before, but Asmodean's teachings were making him stronger. No human or animal crossing the line of that ward would notice anything, but Shadowspawn that touched it would sound a warning that everyone in the tents would hear. Had he done this in Rhuidean, the Darkhounds could never have entered without him knowing.**

Rand also constantly making Wards every night since leaving Rhuidean; and, finally Rand using the angreal for an entire day continually with the Battle of Cairhien. A good (bad, really ;)) heaping of the taint from those.

Then, at the end of The Fires of Heaven, you have of course the two big battles between Lanfear vs. Rand, and Rahvin vs. Rand. Both requiring the usage of the angreal and pushing Rand to his limits of strength. Lots more taint, lots more taint.

Throughout Lord of Chaos, this regular usage of the angreal continues. Lews Therin appears more and more, and in fact begins to talk directly to Rand and their interactions increase in number.

From Lord of Chaos to Winter's Heart, the general trend continues. Lews Therin keeps appearing more and more, stronger and stronger as Rand spends more time channeling and more taint degrades his barrier. Quotes I provided earlier give a general run of the mill with this.

One part I wish to point out to this, and will get back to later on:

**TITLE: The Path of Daggers, CHAPTER: 21 – Answering the Summons

You must kill him before he kills you, Lews Therin giggled. They will, you know. Dead men can't betray anyone. The voice in Rand's head turned wondering. But sometimes they don't die. Am I dead? Are you?

Rand pushed the words down to a fly's buzzing, just on the edge of notice. Since his reappearance inside Rand's head, Lews Therin seldom went silent unless forced. The man seemed madder than ever most of the time, and usually angrier as well. Stronger sometimes, too. That voice invaded Rand's dreams, and when he saw himself in a dream, it was not always himself at all that he saw. It was not always Lews Therin, either, the face he had come to recognize as Lews Therin's. Sometimes it was blurred, yet vaguely familiar, and Lews Therin seemed startled by it, too. That was an indication how far the man's madness went. Or maybe his own.**

Lews Therin continues to get stronger, and shows more and more emotions, as well as resistance to Rand. He's also begun to invade Rand's dreams. Lews Therin -- is getting more and more present in Rand over time, along with Rand channeling more and more of saidin and getting more of the taint.

Finally, the end so far of this correlation comes in Winter's Heart, when Rand finally cleanses saidin. If anyone doubts that Rand channeled more of saidin than any other male channeler of the 3rd Age as of The Shadow Rising (I will make that arguement repeatedly), after the cleansing, I feel it's not only obvious as of this time period, it might even be that he has channeled enough as most people ever did in the Age of Legends (no taint of course, just a vast, vast amount).

So, what has happened to Lews Therin since? Well, not the most abundant information about him, but some:

**TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight, CHAPTER: 24 - A Strengthening Storm

I don't want to kill her. Rand thought at the dead man. I can't afford for her to die. Lews Therin knew that as well as he, but the man grumbled under his breath anyway. Since Shadar Logoth, he seemed a touch less mad, sometimes. Or maybe Rand was a touch more. After all, he took talking to a dead man in his head as a matter of every day, and that was hardly sane.**

It seems to be rather indecisive so far. Lews Therin seems to be as much the same as he ever was before, but now appearing more sane? Or Rand a touch more mad....

In either case, Lews Therin was still growing in presence in Rand's mind at that time.

Alright. If you are with me this far, we can get down to the root of all this and tie it together.

Who is Lews Therin?

While I am quite aware Lews Therin was the Dragon in the Age of Legends, here I am refering to the Lews Therin that is in Rand's mind. He is of course a voice and/or a presence in Rand's head and has and continues (so far) to grow in strength in Rand's mind. Well, that was a simple definition wasn't it?

Is he real?

This is the main contention between my theory, and virtually any other that goes of somewhat of the facts I listed above.

No, Lews Therin is NOT real.

The Lews Therin that is in Rand's head is a construct made by Rand himself.

Thankfully, RJ has killed the two-souler theory completely:

**Q:The question is, with Rand and LTT, do they have 1 soul or 2 souls in the body?

A: They have 1 soul with 2 personalities. The reincarnation of souls does not mean reincarnation of personalities. The personality develops with each reincarnation of the soul. This is the cosmology that I [cobbled] together.**

First, let me provide the other side of the arguement. People that think Lews Therin is real, generally believe everything else about this theory too (as I said, mainly the difference was if he was "real" or not).

What I mean by that, is that people who think Lews Therin is real believe that the degradation of Rand's barrier allowed Lews Therin's entire personality to cross over into Rand's mind.

This I do not believe for two main reasons:

1. A personality is a summation of memories. If Rand had Lews Therin's entire life of memories in his head, I would agree he has his personality. However, to do this, I believe Rand's barrier would have to be entirely degraded. I do not believe that of course ;) It's severely damaged; but not completely gone.

2. If this were true it would mean that Lews Therin would've came over into Rand entirely since the moment the barrier degraded enough to first happen. This means that Lews Therin would've appeared just like he does in Crossroads of Twilight, back in The Shadow Rising or The Fires of Heaven. Rand would've gone from what he was like in that time period, to what he is now in Crossroads. A lot of people do not realize how much of a big change that is. This view does not explain how Lews Therin is growing in presence. It would be like fliping on a lightswitch: Lews Therin wasn't there --> flip --> Lews Therin is there in full swing.

So, Lews Therin is not real. He is a construct. Why do I believe this?

Think of what has happened to Rand subconsciously (and eventually consciously). He's had memories that are not his, blatantly not his, coming into and messing with his own. They are real memories, but they are not Rand's. So, he supresses them. Think basic psychology; it's a defense mechanism.

Rand over the course of the series has learned to supress a lot of things. Mainly, it's his emotions that have been squeezed away by him in his need to be "hard" so that he can be "the Dragon Reborn" in his mind.

Now, what does Lews Therin do? What does he nearly constantly do? He constantly expresses sadness, laughter, fear, and anger, which are exactly the emotions that Rand tries to supress entirely.

Proof of this:

**TITLE: Winter's Heart, CHAPTER: 25 - Bonds

In his room at The Counsel's Head, Rand sat on the bed with his legs folded and his back against the wall, playing the silver-mounted flute Thom Merrilin had given him so long ago. An Age ago. This room, with carved wall panels and windows overlooking the Nethvin Market, was better than that they had abandoned at The Crown of Maredo. The pillows stacked beside him were goose down, the bed had an embroidered canopy and curtains, and the mirror above the washstand had not a single bubble. The lintel above the stone fireplace even had a bit of simple carving. It was a room for a well-to-do foreign merchant. He was glad he had thought to bring enough gold when he left Cairhien. He had lost the habit of carrying much. Everything had been provided for the Dragon Reborn. Still, he could have earned a bed of some sort with the flute. The tune was called "Lament for the Long Night," and he had never heard it before in his life. Lews Therin had, though. It was like the skill at drawing. Rand thought that should frighten him, or make him angry, but he simply sat and played while Lews Therin wept.**

Rand, under all the stress of being the Dragon Reborn, under all the supression of emotions, and I have even felt there might be a dabble of play by entering tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh (but personally not much), still has these memories which are not his that he has been supressing. And, there is still yet another factor: taint madness.

The taint will eventually drive any male channeler mad (except now that it is cleansed of course). Rand, obviously, has channeled a heck of a lot of taint. So, he should have a heck of a big madness, right? Not so. A lot of people write Lews Therin off completely as taint madness -- but it doesn't explain how he knows the things he knows (like helping Rand with the escape at Dumai's Wells), and doesn't explain where Rand is getting these pieces of knowledge (weaves and memories).

So, there is a key difference to be made:

Barrier degradation and taint madness come from the same source, but effect people serepately.

What I mean by that is everyone may have a set amount of the taint to channel before their barrier has degraded enough so that memories cross over into their present lives; it could also be that it is variable, that some people need to channel more than others. I personally say it's a relatively fixed amount.

But taint madness for sure happens differently in different people. Notice Fedwin Morr. He was a male channeler (intensively using saidin and recieving the taint) for less than a year. He went mad.

**TITLE: Path of Daggers, CHAPTER: 29 - A Cup of Sleep

She could still remember the horror when she realized the boy "guarding" her now had the mind of a small child. The sadness remained, too—Light, he was only a boy! it was not right!—but she hoped Rand still had him shielded. It had not been easy, talking Fedwin into playing with those wooden blocks instead of pulling stones out of the walls with the Power to make a "big tower to keep you safe in." And then she had sat guarding him until Rand came. Oh, Light, she wanted to cry. For Rand even more than Fedwin.**

Notice an unnamed recruit to the Black Tower:

**TITLE: Path of Daggers, CHAPTER: 14 - Message from the M'Hael

Torval shrugged, too casually. "Fifty-one, all told. Thirteen burned out, and twenty-eight dead where they stood. The rest. . . . The M'Hael, he adds something to their wine, and they do not wake." Abruptly his tone turned malicious. "It can come suddenly, at any time. One man began screaming that spiders were crawling beneath his skin on his second day." He smiled viciously at Narishma and Hopwil, and nearly so at Rand, but it was to the other two he addressed himself, swinging his head between them. "You see? Not to worry if you slide into madness. You'll not hurt yourselves or a soul. You go to sleep . . . forever. Kinder than gentling, even if we knew how. Kinder than leaving you insane and cut off, yes?" Narishma stared back, taut as a harp-string, his mug forgotten in his hand. Hopwil was once more frowning at something only he could see.**

Notice Logain who apparently has no ill effects after 6 years of channeling, then gentling, then more channeling after being Healed.

I do not put Taim in here, for I believe the reason he is not visibly mad is quite seperate (IE: he's got black cords in my opinion).

And notice Rand, at around 2 years of extremely intensive saidin usage. The amount of time before madness takes hold varies, as well does the form it comes in.

Fedwin's: turned into a child. Unnamed recruit: spiders under the skin. Rand: his seems to be a seperate voice in his head.

We have Cadsuane's information about some male channelers:

**TITLE: Crown of Swords, CHAPTER: 18 - As the Plow Breaks the Earth

The woman looked at the battered tea things as if she had all the time in the world. "Now you know," she said at last, calm as ever, "that I know your future, and your present. The Light's mercy fades to nothing for a man who can channel. Some see that and believe the Light denies those men. I do not. Have you begun to hear voices, yet?"

"What do you mean?" he asked slowly. He could feel Lews Therin listening. The tingle returned to his skin, and he very nearly channeled, but all that happened was that the teapot rose and floated to Cadsuane, turning slowly in the air for her to examine. "Some men who can channel begin to hear voices." She spoke almost absently, frowning at the flattened sphere of silver and gold. "It is a part of the madness. Voices conversing with them, telling them what to do." The teapot drifted gently to the floor by her feet. "Have you heard any?"**

A lot of people criticized my theory because it didn't explain Cadsuane's assertions. But, it does. These men did not have their barriers degraded in such a way as Rand's has. They might have gotten a bit, but even that I don't believe (took an incredible amount just for Rand, and male channelers do have a short time...). Their voices are much more likely to be just taint madness; not actually rememberances of past lives.

So, what is Lews Therin? He is the summation that is based off real memories that were once Lews Therin as well as being supressed by Rand, coupled with stress of being the Dragon Reborn, and the supression of emotions by Rand for which he is generally the output, as well as taint madness playing a hand.

All this has coalesced in a seperate personality, a seperate construct which Rand has created, called Lews Therin.

What is going to happen to him?

Well, now this is where it gets interesting.

A final puzzle that many theories on Lews Therin fail to answer is: where did Lews Therin go from portions of A Crown of Swords to The Path of Daggers? He just disappears. Why? How? Where?

In this scene (chapter 18, As the Plow Breaks the Earth) when Rand first meets Cadsuane, soon after Lews Therin flees. Main question is why. The answer I feel is simple: This is one of the few times that Rand actually expresses his emotions.

What happens? Rand gets flippin pissed at Cadsuane! (and who wouldn't...)

But what is one of the key things about Lews Therin? He's an outlet for Rand's emotions. Once Rand starts to express his own emotions -- Lews Therin isn't needed anymore. What happens soon afterwards is that Rand goes back to being the Dragon Reborn; he goes back to supressing everything. And, eventually, Lews Therin returns.

This is integral to how Lews Therin is going to be overcome/defeated/removed. Why? It fits perfectly with what Cadsuane is going to teach Rand and all the Asha'man: that they are still human.

**TITLE: Path of Daggers, CHAPTER: 12 - New Alliances

Still, Cadsuane felt a rising thrill of possibility. If she had had any doubts that Sorilea wanted to feel her out, they were gone. And you did not feel out someone in this manner unless you hoped for some agreement. "Do you believe a man must be hard?" she asked. She was taking a chance. "Or strong?" By her tone, she left no doubt she saw a difference.

Again Sorilea touched the tray; the smallest of smiles might have quirked her lips for an instant. Or not. "Most men see the two as one and the same, Cadsuane Melaidhrin. Strong endures; hard shatters."

Cadsuane drew breath. A chance she would have scoured anyone else for taking. But she was not anyone else, and sometimes chances had to be taken. "The boy confuses them," she said. "He needs to be strong, and makes himself harder. Too hard, already, and he will not stop until he is stopped. He has forgotten how to laugh except in bitterness; there are no tears left in him. Unless he finds laughter and tears again, the world faces disaster. He must learn that even the Dragon Reborn is flesh. If he goes to Tarmon Gai'don as he is, even his victory may be as dark as his defeat."

Once Rand (and all the Asha'man will learn it too) has re-learned "laughter and tears," the need for Lews Therin evaporates like a fog in the desert. And Lews Therin, well be gone for good.
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Comments

1

Tamyrlin: 2005-09-27

Callandor, you and I agree on the Barrier Degradation. Thanks for writing up such an excellent detailed summary of the theory. Birgitte is the key example, I wholeheartedly agree. Lews Therin is one of many Heroes and his degradation is a direct effect of the taint. But as to how you end the theory, I am still unsure. The degradation has occurred, so I would imagine there would be memory leakage that would continue. Do you believe memory leakage would still occur? We know two will become one, so maybe, as you say, one personality will remain in the end, but I wasn't too clear why the "laughter and tears" would stop the voices, since the voices effects of the damage?

2

Astra-al: 2005-09-27

**How you wish to designate for multiple past memories, I myself haven't fully settled on (is it many jars standing on top of the other with the lids touching? I don't know, I just feel it's a complication and it's best to deal with the simplicity of this for now). **

One way to deal with this is a canal such as the panama canal. There are boxes of water (past memories) and there is a wall between each of them, and the taint corrodes the wall letting in only the most recent first, although if you were able to survive long enough, perhaps it would eventually reach the one before that (possibly the ‘3rd voice' that Rand mentions in the books? Also, doesn't it appear when Lews Therin grows stronger.. Therefore more decay between those lives means possible back more? Or is the 3rd voice simply the madness? I don't know)

One could also argue that perhaps part of the madness is decay between future lives, but I think that is highly unlikely as I don't believe the pattern is set enough for that to happen... I believe this was also your point about time moving forward...

Also, I don't see Rand's shadowspawn seeking lightning and Lews Therin's ‘kinslaying' as the same thing. First of all, The Stone of Tear isn't really harmed by the lightning, secondly, the lightning seeks out shadowspawn and doesn't harm any humans, while the ‘kinslaying' harms the building, and there are remarks about stones that flowed. And the ‘kinslaying' appears to kill all, I don't believe it was specific.

Also question, when you say Lews Therin is not real, are you meaning the voice? Because so far, the memories have held true, and how could Rand create true memories? I didn't quite get that part.

(Random Side Tangent) And its an interesting thing with Tel'aran'rhoid, the Wise Ones say there is a price to be paid going in there in the flesh. Also, the heroes await there while waiting for rebirth, and retain their memories while in TAR. It could be that going to TAR in the flesh weakens the barriers, but some key things against this is that Rand doesn't spend enough time there in the flesh, and also the forsaken are there a lot (though is it in the flesh or not?) Also, if this was the case, it could explain some of the things that Ishmael says, because he has memories from his past lives and why he seems mad? Anyways, this doesn't seem very likely to me, but its an interesting thought (/Random Side Tangent)

Ok, (replying as I'm reading) now I'm pretty confused. (I'm at the part where you start talking about Cadsuane) So you are suggesting that Lews Therin is a construct of Rand's subconscious mind caused by repressing emotions? I assume that if that's what you're saying you're only talking about the voice, not the memories? That in response to Rand suppressing the emotions, the subconscious needs a way to release them so it creates Lews Therin?

Anyways, very good theory, and I must say I agree with it. I remember thinking something along these same lines before I came here. Just those questions I have above that I'm not clear on.

3

HermesApollo: 2005-09-27

Just in response, how would this 'acid scoring'affect the other people in rands head? at last count there is 6 (including himself, Rand, LTT (construct ;)) Alanna, Min, Elayne and Aviendha. How does this acid affect them? as we have seen, the warder bond acts as sieve only letting some things through, but with something this powerful there would have to be crossover. That goes for the AS bonded to any Asha'man as well. Must say i like you theory though, had thoughts leaning in that direction, but nothing at this level.

4

snakes-n-foxes: 2005-09-27

Hi Callandor.

I have to say, one of the best argued theories I have seen.

I'll say that I agree with you that LTT is a construct of Rand's. However I have to say I'm not entirely convinced that it is caused by the taint, rather than from entering TA'R in the flesh (That doesn't mean that I think you're wrong, your theory is entirely plausible - just that I'm not quite convinced because I still have questions- related to an opposing theory)

Some reasons I'm not quite convinced being :

Ishy says LTT's souls have fought many battles in many incarnations

Moghedien (from your own quote) recognises Birgitte's soul

Lanfear recognised Rand's soul as LTT's

So the question is both two fold, and related :

1. How is it, that Ishy knows what he and LTT's souls have done in the past ; and

2. How come the forsaken recognise souls in people they haven't met before ?

Given that 3 forsaken can do this, it's ‘fairly' safe to assume that others can to.

The ability exhibited by Ishy to know what happened in his past lives, would easily be explained by having memories from past lives, but of course Ishy has never experienced the taint.

The ability of other forsaken to recognise peoples souls could also perhaps be explained by receiving numerous memories from past lives, and learning to recognise the people they come across again and again...but again, no taint, especially for the female forsaken.

If I'm not mistaken, though I don't know where to find the reference, one of the male forsaken thought that Ishy “appeared even madder since they were released, though he was never quite sane to begin with”. Ishy had 40 years in the outside world...but what happened during that time to make him madder?

Now none of the forsaken appear to have voices in their heads, although Ishy appears mad to most of the forsaken, and he is the main one that alludes to battles occurring between souls times beyond number.

For the three forsaken named, each of these 3 forsaken call TA'R their own. And we also know that the forsaken enter TA'R in the flesh, and the Aiel Wise Ones saying that entering TA'R can have dire consequences, though that is never explained.

So the possibility exists that entering TA'R in the flesh may be the reason for the barrier breaking down.

After all, we know a few other things about the dream world. It exists in between worlds, and the hero's of the horn dwell there when they aren't being spun out. We also know that the hero's of the horn have their complete memories in TA'R.

5

Dumai Wells: 2005-09-27

Your idea of why Lews Therin is in Rand's head seems to make perfect sense. The logic behind barrier degredation is beautiful, and part 1 of your theory of barrier degradation is undisputable.

However, I don't feel as though Cadsuane's laughter and tears will rid Rand of Lews Therin. I feel as though one has nothing to do with the other. Laughter and tears are just something he needs to learn to realize he is human. I really think that RJ meant for us to take that at face value. However, I believe that Lews Therin will be an integral part of the last battle. He might give Rand suttle hints, or outright suggestions like he did when he was trapped inside the box in LOC. I am going to post something that RJ himself wrote maybe this will help us take what cadsuane says at face value.

This is what RJ wrote:

No, I'm not going to reveal what the "gasp" moment is. I certainly won't be putting any spoilers here. But I have read the reviews, both spoiler and non-spoiler. For those who have read the book and believe you have identified the "gasp" moment, congratulations. For those who have read the book and still don't know what the "gasp" moment is, my sympathies. I mean that in all truth. You failed to see something that really should have made you gasp. I think I am fairly hardened, but occasionally something happens that makes me mutter, "Where are you, God? Are you sleeping? Are you blind?" This is fiction, but even so, I had to pause a couple of times in writing about it. Of course, I get deeply immersed in my work so that it becomes real to me while I am writing, but I hope to pull the reader into that level of realness, too. Either I failed completely in this instance, or some of you have become way too hardened. Too much on the evening news, I suppose. It's just today's hurricane, today's tsunami, today's Armageddon. I wonder what's coming up at eleven? Take care, guys. And remember, if you can look at absolutely anything without at least a desire to weep, then you've lost part of your humanity.

RJ

You see? So, I believe RJ is using Cadsuane in this light aswell because what RJ was saying to us, is exactly what has happend to Rand "todays forsaken attack, todays 500 dead" etc etc. He needs real laughter and tears to be human again. But I believe that Lews Therin, atleast up until the last battle and until it ends, he will be key in helping Rand do what he must do.

6

drz1649: 2005-09-27

Seems like a solid theory. Some thoughts.

1. what evidence is there that the barrier between previous lives is in anyway related to channeling and the One Power? if, as you say, everyone is reborn, then it seems that the ability to channel and be exposed to the taint doesn't necessarily have any relevance to a barrier between past lives.

2. if it's a symptom of Rand's exposure to the taint, and it is so extreme - to the point of the prior personality trying to take him over - because of his greater exposure to the taint compared to other male channelers...then why has he not succumbed to the madness and rotting disease much faster than other male channelers also? difficult to argue he has some kind of intrinsic resistance to only some effects of the taint and not others.

3. when the Heroes were called to Falme, the Dragon archetype did not appear among them. however, there did not appear to be any other absences. since it's highly unlikely that only the Dragon was spun out at that time (as Rand) and so could not appear, does that not suggest that something special is happening with the Dragon soul? (the other heroes would very likely be spun out because - obviously - TG and the breaking free of the DO are just over the horizon. what greater need could the Pattern have to spin out its supply of little correcting mechanisms?)

4. tangent - the hero "system" doesn't appear to make a huge amount of sense to me - primarily how they are known to exist in the world. how does the public at large know of Birgitte at all when all her exploits are performed while spun out as a person who doesn't have that name and doesn't know who she is? why does Artur Hawkwing appear as Hawkwing at Falme, rather than as the the generic soul that became Hawkwing? do the heroes retain the appearance and manner of their last or best known incarnation?

5. contradicting my previous points - these are just what's coming into my mind - is it possible that all the effects of the taint itself are consequences of the breakdown of the barrier between past and present selves? if the taint exposes men to past lives, horrors and many many deaths, may that not be what drives them crazy? particularly if there is no coherent personality behind those memories, just them filtering into your mind without end until you go insane. not sure how that would explain the rotting sickness though. perhaps a consequence of going against the natural grain of the Pattern, the body, reacting to the blending of the souls by destroying itself.

6. does it strike anyone else as strange that the personality of Lews Therin persists? there should be the memories of Lews Therin, as experienced by the soul he and Rand share, and the soul itself - which is now Rand. so where does the actual thing that is more than Lews Therins memories, more like his being, come from? where was it before it started to live "in" Rand? do all souls store the actual mind and personality of prior existences as well as the memories?

ah, wait. you are saying the Rand has constructed the Lews Therin personality to explain his strange memories? that is clever. perhaps somehow reabsorbing Lews Therin into himself will make him whole again...and that would explain the vision of the two faces merging in a positive way too.

intriguing theory.

7

Balinor: 2005-09-27

Bravo! This is definitely the best researched, well thought out theory I have read here. It certainly seems to put all the pieces into place. Just one thing I would add at the end...when Lews Therin is no longer needed, then Rand will still have these pieces of his personality to integrate into his own (memories, abilities, etc.) Perhaps this is what some of Min's viewings mean, when she sees Rand and another man meld into each other, and a third man appears? (You touched on this in one of the quotes, "That voice invaded Rand's dreams, and when he saw himself in a dream, it was not always himself at all that he saw. It was not always Lews Therin, either, the face he had come to recognize as Lews Therin's. Sometimes it was blurred, yet vaguely familiar, and Lews Therin seemed startled by it, too. That was an indication how far the man's madness went. Or maybe his own." This face that neither one recognizes; possibly a sane Rand/LTT merged personality?)

Excellent work, keep it up.

8

El Bogarto: 2005-09-27



Just beautiful, man.

All neatly tied up in one handy package!

9

brother of Battles: 2005-09-27

Ok, First things first...(And don't take this the wrong way, but) Phew that was long. I think I started drifting off somewhere in the middle..haha. But seriously, you make a lot of sense about the degradation of the barrier between current lives and past lives. But if Rand is suffering from Degradation, why is the only memories he is receiving coming from only one of his past lives? If the barrier is coming down, what is to stop all of his past lives' memories from slipping through?

You yourself used Birgitte as a reference, and she remembers all her past lives, but granted some are starting to dim and she only remembers up to the founding of the WT. However, she did not have a "normal" rebirth. She was plucked out of T'A'R and placed in the pattern. So you can't really use her for a reference on remembering past lives. So basically, Rand is the only person ever to know who he was in at least a single past life. I don't think even Ishmael knows who he was in any past life, even if he did use that quote in the EotW about him and Rand fighting each other since the beginning of time. He might know that, but not who he was. So, what happens to someone like that? There is a barrier between lives so that when a person is born, they DO NOT KNOW anything about who they used to be, but Rand knows without a doubt who he was. Basically I am asking what is to stop the memory leakage from slipping through because of that?

What if Rand is getting all these memories, weaves, ect. because he knows 100% who he was in a past life? It would be like remembering something you forget...or re-reading a book (Birgitte referrence..HAHA).

Even going further, lets say that the people from Randland are people like you and me. Basically they would be using about 10% of their brains on average. Who is to say that the other 90% isn't where their past lives are stored? But, in Rand's case, he is using more then 10% because he knows who he used to be. He knows he once used these weaves, had these memories, ect. ect. So, with absolute conviction he was able to tap into his subconscious to gain access to these memories. But he is not suppose to have these memories, so in order for his brain to process all of the information, his subconscious mind created the voice to ward Rand of the onslaught he would receive any other way. Thus the memories are "drifting" back and forth through the void.

Wow, that was so good I should have wrote that in a theory...

Callandor, I have something really quick I want to point out. Even if I bought into what you are trying to sell, you still have yet to point out the other "Voice." If you need me to get the quotes I will, however, several times LTT comments on a third voice or rather "other one." If it is just Barrier Degradation and Rand manifesting this voice from his emotions, sickness, and whatever else you used...where did the third voice come from?

10

Grady: 2005-09-27

Awesome. I love the part about LTT being all of Rand's bottled up emotions. Not only does it make sense, but it also makes me think about how Lanfear kept urging and prodding Rand to seek the Oneness and constantly wrap himself in it when she was posing as Selene in the Great Hunt. Was she acting on orders by the DO to teach him to suppress his emotions? And as early as that in the series?

11

silverwolf: 2005-09-27

While it's true that no one noticed anyone missing from the group of heros, that doesn't necessarily mean that no one was missing (i.e.: spun out at the time)--I didn't see anyone taking attendance at Falme, and there really isn't any way for a non-hero to know who all is bound to the horn. Most likely, there are heros out in the world (some have speculated that Mat is a Hero of the Horn), but to argue that more should have been in preparation for TG is a circular argument--you could just as easily argue that none should have been so all would be able to answer the call of the horn. There is not a seperate soul for the Dragon as opposed to Rand--the "Dragon" soul is Rand's soul is Lews Therin's soul. Only one. RJ has explicitly stated this.

I'm not sure about the Taint being the cause of the seepage of memories, but I agree that the LTT persona Rand experiences is likely a psychological construct meant to deal with gaining LTT's memories (not sure about the emotional outburst reasoning about this, but don't necessarily disagree with it).

12

therobotbadger: 2005-09-27

Wonderful theory, Callandor. You always give us high-quality work, and I think this is some of your best.

I always understand something better if I restate it in my own words, so I'm going to do that now. Correct me if any of this misses the mark. LTT's memories and knowledge are coming through the degraded barrier into Rand's head, but none of LTT's personality. The "LTT" personification was created by Rand himself in an effort to cope with this invasion, and also as a symptom of his growing madness. Rand put together this voice as a means to deal with the actual barrier degredation / memory osmosis and also as a depository of his own emotions, which he considers to make him too weak (or not "hard" enough) to fight the Last Battle. A possible future is that Cadsuane will convince Rand that he and "LTT" are actually different aspects of the same person and force Rand to confront his emotions.

I think this would be exactly what RJ would create for the mental state of one of his characters. It's a bit too Freudian for me to like it (as I don't like Freud), but I'd say based on the information we've been given, this is an incredibly plausible theory.

13

jason wolfbrother: 2005-09-27

Very well written theory Callandor. I have no disagreement whatsoever. Nice job.

14

Yaga Shura: 2005-09-28

"No, Lews Therin is NOT real."

How do you explain LTT's attempts to take the source, if he is a construct of Rand's mind? Was he about to create an OP clown?;)

Brother of Battles: "Callandor, I have something really quick I want to point out. Even if I bought into what you are trying to sell, you still have yet to point out the other "Voice." If you need me to get the quotes I will, however, several times LTT comments on a third voice or rather "other one." If it is just Barrier Degradation and Rand manifesting this voice from his emotions, sickness, and whatever else you used...where did the third voice come from?"

RAFO, matey ;)

15

wolfbrother10: 2005-09-28

I can follow your theory. However, there are some things that are left to the side.

I understand the the wheel of time moves through the use of the OP. This can explain the way the taint can seep into the fabrics of ones past lives and cause the erosion of memory barriers as you suggest. We see that only certain people are tied the the wheel (the heroes of the horn) and are reborn again (when they are needed it appears).

The taint on the male half of the OP was an after effect of the drilling of the bore, correct? The Dark One shields the male forsaken of the taint because it can drive you mad. (This is inference) The Dark One had to know after sooo many years imprisoned that the taint was degrading the fabric of past ages and allowing tidbits to flow through, right? So why give Rand the obvious advantage to possess valuable information that has saved his but countless times (weaves and personality info on the forsaken). The DO or one of the forsaken would have sought for a way to shield Rand from the taint so that he would not have any aid in his fight against the Shadow. This is the reason why Asmodean was killed; he was leaking some information that was making Rand stronger and more allowing him the struggle against the Shadow.

As an aside the only other person with memories from the past is Matt and he got them from the Finn. Also one of the dragons (Rand or LTT)must die at TG. How can this be possible if LTT just dissappear when Rand learns "laughter and tears" (Assuming Rand lives past TG, which I do). This sort of cast doubt on part of your theory. Would you clarify

16

Anubis: 2005-09-28

Nice.

However im going to stick to my guns. Show me one other channeler with memories of their past lives, caused by the taint. If that happens I will accept your theory. Untill then there are too many other variables.

17

Callandor: 2005-09-28

**Do you believe memory leakage would still occur? We know two will become one, so maybe, as you say, one personality will remain in the end, but I wasn't too clear why the "laughter and tears" would stop the voices, since the voices effects of the damage?**

1. Yes, the leakage continues -- at least until Rand dies (which I feel is going to be happening relatively soon; Last Battle ;)).

2. The two will become one is an ambiguous viewing. If you notice, I do not totally address the "third man" in this theory -- I consider it a seperate issue.

3. The voice of Lews Therin is a personality that basically exists as the output for Rand's supressed emoitions (one of the key things he does at least). Think of it like what it takes to make fire. You need three things:

A. Heat

B. Oxygen

C. Fuel

Take away one of them, the fire will die out or will not form in the first place. I feel Lews Therin works on the same principle -- without Rand's supression of emotions, a key part of what makes Lews Therin will be gone, even if the memories will continue to cross over into Rand. Rand will get the memories, but there won't be a voice trying to talk to Rand, and trying to take him over.

**One could also argue that perhaps part of the madness is decay between future lives, but I think that is highly unlikely as I don't believe the pattern is set enough for that to happen... I believe this was also your point about time moving forward...**

Yes, that too was one of the reasons. There isn't a personality that is "the future Dragon Reborn" yet. Rand hasn't died, the Dragon soul hasn't been reborn yet again into whoever the person will be, and that person hasn't developed their personality yet. As RJ said in his answer, each rebirth is a new personality.

**Also, I don't see Rand's shadowspawn seeking lightning and Lews Therin's ‘kinslaying' as the same thing.**

The lightning was seeking down the people -- exactly the same as Rand used against the Trollocs.

**secondly, the lightning seeks out shadowspawn and doesn't harm any humans, while the ‘kinslaying' harms the building, and there are remarks about stones that flowed.**

The stones that flowed is obviously a similar weave for the ground (more than likely using mainly Earth, than Fire and Air that's used to make lightning).

**Also question, when you say Lews Therin is not real, are you meaning the voice? Because so far, the memories have held true, and how could Rand create true memories? I didn't quite get that part.**

Yes, I explictly distinguished between the two.

Lews Therin, the Dragon, was alive, lived, and died all in the Age of Legends. He's dead. He doesn't play a part here. His memories do, however.

The Lews Therin I was refering to as not being real, is the voice that's in Rand's head which has been deemed "Lews Therin." That, is a construct. But the memories of which were the basis for him are real.

**It could be that going to TAR in the flesh weakens the barriers, but some key things against this is that Rand doesn't spend enough time there in the flesh, and also the forsaken are there a lot (though is it in the flesh or not?)**

It also doesn't line up with some of the key changes in Rand -- namely the first appearance by Lews Therin, Rand hasn't gone back into tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh, since his battle with Ishamael. It's a dramatic change, but no spur for it, except the taint.

**Also, if this was the case, it could explain some of the things that Ishmael says, because he has memories from his past lives and why he seems mad?**

Ishamael is more than likely mad for two reasons (or a mesh of them):

1. He's a rabid True Power user.

2. He was partially sealed in the Bore.

Also, what Ishamael says, are mostly things that you would expect him to be able to figure out on his own (like the champions of the Light and Shadow battling instead of the Creator and Dark One). It's just that he sometimes embellishes them -- like saying he could trace Rand's bloodline back to the First Moment, when there isn't a direct bloodline from Rand to Lews Therin.

**So you are suggesting that Lews Therin is a construct of Rand's subconscious mind caused by repressing emotions?**

Not entirely, but it is a key factor.

**That in response to Rand suppressing the emotions, the subconscious needs a way to release them so it creates Lews Therin?**

Roughly, with the addition of the memories to give the voice a full "personality" and truth to it.

**Just in response, how would this 'acid scoring'affect the other people in rands head?**

None, I feel. It's a seperate issue. The other people in Rand's head are bondings -- I'm dealing with Rand's soul.

There might be some effect, but I doubt it, since it's a different comparison.

**Ishy says LTT's souls have fought many battles in many incarnations**

And they more than likely have. But how is this not convincing, since it doesn't deal with it? Ishamael fought Lews Therin's soul in the Age of Legends -- he's fighting the rebirth of that soul in Rand as the Dragon Reborn in the 3rd Age.

**Moghedien (from your own quote) recognises Birgitte's soul**

Which is never fully explained.

**Lanfear recognised Rand's soul as LTT's**

She recognized Rand as the Dragon Reborn, and knew what that meant ;)

**1. How is it, that Ishy knows what he and LTT's souls have done in the past**

1. Ishamael could be lying. I myself do not favor that option a single bit, but others love to throw it around.

2. Ishamael is a philosopher. He rationalized that the Creator and Dark One fight not by themselves, but through their champions. He recognized Lews Therin in the Age of Legends as the Creator's champion (probably after Ishamael had already joined the Shadow, but who knows), and obviously is thinking he is the Dark One's champion (in part because he is -- but he might not always be the champion, though it is surely possible). He then extrapolated by that: since they're the champions, they must've been fighting throughout time again and again.

**2. How come the forsaken recognise souls in people they haven't met before**

Moghedien recognizing Birgitte is an outright mystery so far. Lanfear recognizing Rand isn't -- she figured out (more than likely from Ishamael giving the information, and her using it), that Rand was the Dragon Reborn. She knew exactly what that meant -- that it was Lews Therin's soul reborn in Rand's body.

**For the three forsaken named, each of these 3 forsaken call TA'R their own.**

Ishamael doesn't.

**And we also know that the forsaken enter TA'R in the flesh, and the Aiel Wise Ones saying that entering TA'R can have dire consequences, though that is never explained.**

No, Moghedien is a Dreamer. Lanfear is more than likely one. Ishamael might be a Dreamer, since he can take people out of their dreams into a place he controls, and that implies he can use the GOI, which as far as we know only Dreamers can.

**However, I don't feel as though Cadsuane's laughter and tears will rid Rand of Lews Therin.**

Well, that is the debatable stuff ;)

**I feel as though one has nothing to do with the other. Laughter and tears are just something he needs to learn to realize he is human.**

Which again is linked to Lews Therin constantly expressing the emotions that Rand is supressing. There's a strong link there, and one that is explained if Rand uses his emotions (realizes he's human again), that Lews Therin isn't needed.

**However, I believe that Lews Therin will be an integral part of the last battle. He might give Rand suttle hints, or outright suggestions like he did when he was trapped inside the box in LOC.**

Even without Lews Therin's voice messing with Rand, there still will be the memories crossing into Rand for which he might draw more conclusions from.

**1. what evidence is there that the barrier between previous lives is in anyway related to channeling and the One Power?**

Vague references refering to the taint seeping into Rand's soul and stuff which might be true or simply author expression.

**if, as you say, everyone is reborn, then it seems that the ability to channel and be exposed to the taint doesn't necessarily have any relevance to a barrier between past lives.**

1. We know that everyone is reborn -- that's a key fact of the world.

2. We know that everyone is reborn with a barrier between past and present lives.

3. We know the taint breaks things down.

The taint being a metaphysical substance, effecting a metaphysical object (the barrier), I don't see as a stretch.

**2. if it's a symptom of Rand's exposure to the taint, and it is so extreme - to the point of the prior personality trying to take him over - because of his greater exposure to the taint compared to other male channelers...then why has he not succumbed to the madness and rotting disease much faster than other male channelers also?**

1. It's not the prior personality trying to take over -- it's a construct made off the basis of real memories trying to take over.

2. I specifically addressed the point that the taint degrading the barrier seems to be completely seperate from taint madness and the rotting disease.

3. I said that Rand is being effected by the taint madness -- it's a partial reason why Lews Therin is how he is.

**difficult to argue he has some kind of intrinsic resistance to only some effects of the taint and not others.**

I'm not saying that.

**3. when the Heroes were called to Falme, the Dragon archetype did not appear among them.**

Of course not, since the soul was reborn into the Real World into Rand.

**however, there did not appear to be any other absences.**

Unknown -- Mat and Perrin might be Heroes of the Horn, and there could also be others reborn as well. They just aren't remarked upon, sadly.

**since it's highly unlikely that only the Dragon was spun out at that time (as Rand) and so could not appear, does that not suggest that something special is happening with the Dragon soul?**

How? He was reborn into the world -- that's nothing special at all.

** what greater need could the Pattern have to spin out its supply of little correcting mechanisms?)**

Have to remember that Birgitte is in the world now, and will more than likely be playing a part in the Last Battle.

**how does the public at large know of Birgitte at all when all her exploits are performed while spun out as a person who doesn't have that name and doesn't know who she is?**

They don't -- they only know about the stories that her rebirths have done, and even some stories that she hasn't done but have been created.

**why does Artur Hawkwing appear as Hawkwing at Falme, rather than as the the generic soul that became Hawkwing? do the heroes retain the appearance and manner of their last or best known incarnation?**

Most likely its the last incarnation.

** if the taint exposes men to past lives, horrors and many many deaths, may that not be what drives them crazy?**

It drives male channelers crazy -- not every man of course ;)

But it's a seperate process for taint madness and barrier degradation. For the barrier to break down it takes "this much" of the taint, but to be mad from the taint it takes "that much" time exposed to it.

**not sure how that would explain the rotting sickness though.**

Just the basic principle of the taint shown again: it breaks things down.

**does it strike anyone else as strange that the personality of Lews Therin persists?**

It doesn't ;) That's the key thing. The Lews Therin in Rand's mind is a construct -- not the real personality. It's based off of real memories.

**so where does the actual thing that is more than Lews Therins memories, more like his being, come from? where was it before it started to live "in" Rand? do all souls store the actual mind and personality of prior existences as well as the memories?**

1. It was seperated by the barrier. The barrier got weakened, the started to cross over.

2. Yes, and no. The soul "stores" the personality, but only because it stores all the memories of it. I do not believe Rand has the personality of Lews Therin in him at all -- just memories. The personality would be in Rand, if Rand had all of Lews Therin's memories in him, which he doesn't as of yet.

**Perhaps this is what some of Min's viewings mean, when she sees Rand and another man meld into each other, and a third man appears?**

It could be, but I consider the "third man" a seperate issue.

**Phew that was long. I think I started drifting off somewhere in the middle..haha.**

Yes, it was long -- and it was only half done too :)

**But if Rand is suffering from Degradation, why is the only memories he is receiving coming from only one of his past lives? If the barrier is coming down, what is to stop all of his past lives' memories from slipping through?**

In theory, nothing. It just would have to be the taint going through the barrier that was weakened, and effecting the next barrier which was the 1st Age Dragon -- I don't believe this happened, or if it did begin to, not enough to actually allow the 1st Age Dragon to appear or any memories to cross over into Rand.

**So you can't really use her for a reference on remembering past lives.**

That's why I only used references from when she was still in Tel'aran'rhiod. She had yet to be ripped away into the Pattern.

**Basically I am asking what is to stop the memory leakage from slipping through because of that?**

Nothing to stop it once it begins -- it will continue until Rand's death I feel.

**What if Rand is getting all these memories, weaves, ect. because he knows 100% who he was in a past life?**

The prophecies told him that he was the Dragon Reborn -- but it didn't do anything to allow the mixing of past and present life, and it doesn't make sense for it to be an ability of the Dragon Reborn.

**Who is to say that the other 90% isn't where their past lives are stored?**

No, they're stored on the soul.

**Even if I bought into what you are trying to sell, you still have yet to point out the other "Voice." If you need me to get the quotes I will, however, several times LTT comments on a third voice or rather "other one." If it is just Barrier Degradation and Rand manifesting this voice from his emotions, sickness, and whatever else you used...where did the third voice come from?**

It's a seperate issue I feel -- I believe the "third man" to be Ishamael/Moridin.

**Was she acting on orders by the DO to teach him to suppress his emotions? And as early as that in the series?**

I don't think so -- she just wanted him to channel more.

** LTT's memories and knowledge are coming through the degraded barrier into Rand's head, but none of LTT's personality.**

Right -- the personality would be all of the memories.

**A possible future is that Cadsuane will convince Rand that he and "LTT" are actually different aspects of the same person and force Rand to confront his emotions.**

I don't know if Cadsuane will try to confront Rand about Lews Therin -- I just feel she'll teach him to be human, and that will have the effect of getting rid of Lews Therin.

18

JakOShadows: 2005-09-28

Good theory Callandor. I agree with you whole heartedly on this one. I really don't think T'A'R had anything to do with this either. Supposedly if you go there too strongly your soul gets seperated from your body, which is not the same as your barrier degrading. The only time we have seen anything remotely similar is with Perrin and him talking to wolves, which definitely can not be applied in the same way. The same thing happens in tDR when they are attacked in the mountains as in the the end when Faile is trapped by the ter'angreal. So there is no correlation to T'A'R. And as to the memories. I think the memories will merge into one, like he'll remember LTT's memories and his like all one life time. And as to the third voice, who knows, that might be the life before LTT. But I don't think that would come into play much. And in a way, its almost as if the pattern used this to its advantage. Wove the pattern so that it would lead him to channel massive amounts of the power, so that he could make use of those memories to again. Look at the prophecies of the dragon, where they say the sign of his coming will be the taking of the stone of tear and him wielding Callandor. But it could be seen as giving him the tools he needs too. But I do think it was important that it happened, which is why the prophecy is so well remembered, unlike other parts of it. And another side thought, maybe because both Taim and Rand have become hard, that's why it led to their clashing. Maybe, after the fight in the black tower, Logain will have power and Rand hopefully will have learn to laugh and cry again. Allowing them to work together, instead of against each other. I hope it does happen in the next book though, because I'm getting tired of LTT(he seems to be so over the top, which is annoying).

19

Great Lord of the Dark: 2005-09-29

Nice summary. It meshes well with my beliefs but for one part. You don't think other men's 'voices' in their heads are from their previous lives, you call it taint madness. I strongly disagree and I'm surprised you said this.

You argue very well that the taint corrodes the barrier, so why couldn't the difference between Fedwin and Rand or any other male channeler be the 'thickness' of their barrier? After all, Cadsuane didn't just mention the voices for no reason, she's studied more male channelers than any handful of reds, and with much more purpose. She's been preparing for the Dragon for a long time, and if she says they all (if they live long enough) hear voices, then I'm inclined to believe her. You yourself explained why the voices would appear due to barrier degradation. Why would the taint cause voices in other men but degrade only Rand's barrier? ALL taint madness is barrier degradation. If it seems mad to us or other characters, that is only because we are not privy to what previous lives are seeping into their heads. Fedwin's 'voice' obviously died as a child in its previous life. Another may have been eaten by spiders. The voice always seems to carry on from the moment of death in the previous life, just as Rand has LTT from after his death, not LTT in his teenage years, or at any other age.

Nice link between Rand's emotions and LTT. Probably the best innovation of your theory.

I'm curious whether you consider Mat a similar case or not. His 'barrier' could be said to have degraded. Would even Old Blood be a temporary weakening of the barrier? Moiraine seemed to explain it as such.

I guess I could rate this theory at least a 3, since you seem to have spent so much time on it. ;)

20

Traveller: 2005-09-29

First and foremost, yay, great theory!

Another thing that I wonder about to do with the barrier: When the Heroes of the Horn are reborn, they cannoit remember anything because the barrier is up, but when they are in Tel'aran'rhiod, the barrier is down. I wanted to point this out because in FoH, Rand enters T'a'r in the flesh, where he almost merges with LTT. When you are reading it, it seems that Rahvin is doing it, but when I thought longer, it seemed a bit too close to some of Rand's personal problems for comfort. Unfortunately, I can't work out whether it is dodgy or not- but I would like to hear some other opinions about the barrier being down in T'a'r, you know, how? why? that kinda thing.

21

Garayur: 2005-09-29

Great theory Callandor. Makes perfect sense. One thing, if the LTT personality disapears' then rand should still have access to the memories that have seeped through, maybe he would have even greater access because they would no longer be trpped in the LTT personality.

Travaller

I don't think the barrier is actually down when the heroes are in T'A'R. It it was the memories would probably be a muddled mess. Look at Rand, with the barrier degregation he confuses his memories with LTT's at times, while Birgette seems to have all her memories seperate and distinctivly, she describes them as seperate books. Perhaps after a sould dies it is merely granted access to those other memories. It would be kinda like Callandor's jar analogy. While they are alive they are in that specific jar, they have no access to the other memories unless the barrier is degraded. When they die, they are kind of stepping back from themselves, the single memory doesn't matter as much and they get to see an overview, instead of looking from inside the jar, they are outside of them and looking at the rows of jars. so when Birgette put into flesh again her access has become more limited and will probably continue to fade.

22

Callandor: 2005-09-29

**How do you explain LTT's attempts to take the source, if he is a construct of Rand's mind? Was he about to create an OP clown?;)**

Because Lews Therin is a construct of Rand's mind, it's really Rand subconsciously being Lews Therin. It's a "seperate" entity, but Rand actually can control it -- seen by the emoitional link between the two.

So, when Lews Therin "reaches" for the Source, it's truely Rand that's reaching for the Source.

So, by this, if Lews Therin were to take over -- nothing would happen. Rand's personality wouldn't disappear; Rand would realize it was truely himself.

**The Dark One had to know after sooo many years imprisoned that the taint was degrading the fabric of past ages and allowing tidbits to flow through, right?**

No. Why would he?

**This is the reason why Asmodean was killed; he was leaking some information that was making Rand stronger and more allowing him the struggle against the Shadow.**

That's a stretch. We do not know of Asmodean's death was premeditated or simply opprotunity.

**Also one of the dragons (Rand or LTT)must die at TG. How can this be possible if LTT just dissappear when Rand learns "laughter and tears" (Assuming Rand lives past TG, which I do). This sort of cast doubt on part of your theory. Would you clarify**

It's incredibly simple: Rand dies. People just don't want that to happen for the most part ;)

**However im going to stick to my guns. Show me one other channeler with memories of their past lives, caused by the taint. If that happens I will accept your theory. Untill then there are too many other variables.**

Show me a point of view of another male channeler in the 3rd Age. You have Eben Hopwill -- that's it! There haven't been any other point of views of male channelers to draw this from.

Furthermore, I've already explained that this is quite a rare event from a normal standpoint. Rand really only has gotten these memories, because he is the only, or one of a very select few, male channeler to take in enough taint to degrade his barrier.

**And in a way, its almost as if the pattern used this to its advantage. Wove the pattern so that it would lead him to channel massive amounts of the power, so that he could make use of those memories to again.**

It might be depending on how deep you look into the Wheel taking into effect. I personally believe it to be correct, but it's not essential to the theory ;)

**You argue very well that the taint corrodes the barrier, so why couldn't the difference between Fedwin and Rand or any other male channeler be the 'thickness' of their barrier?**

It doesn't seem to matter. I've argued that the placing of the barrier is a systematic event in the rebirth of a soul (or if it's placed when they die -- doesn't matter when). Why would a systematic process for a standard thing (since all souls have barriers), be essentially random?

**After all, Cadsuane didn't just mention the voices for no reason, she's studied more male channelers than any handful of reds, and with much more purpose. She's been preparing for the Dragon for a long time, and if she says they all (if they live long enough) hear voices, then I'm inclined to believe her.**

And I do too -- voices aren't the same as memories though ;)

**Why would the taint cause voices in other men but degrade only Rand's barrier?**

I've explained this GLotD. The taint does degrade their barriers -- just not enough for their barriers to be weakened enough to be pierced and memories to come through.

**ALL taint madness is barrier degradation.**

No. It's two different functions:

1. The corosive element of the taint (simply breaking things down) which is the barrier degradation.

2. The madness it causes in male channelers.

These are seperate effects, but come from the same source.

**If it seems mad to us or other characters, that is only because we are not privy to what previous lives are seeping into their heads. Fedwin's 'voice' obviously died as a child in its previous life. Another may have been eaten by spiders. The voice always seems to carry on from the moment of death in the previous life, just as Rand has LTT from after his death, not LTT in his teenage years, or at any other age.**

1. Remember, it's not the voice that went over to Rand -- just the memories. Rand created the voice.

2. No, it's not just from the moment of death. I have given examples of this from Lews Therin:

**TITLE: Crown of Swords, CHAPTER: 7 - Pitfalls and Tripwires

"The wine punch tasted of plums. Rand could remember fat sweet plums from the orchards across the river when he was young, climbing the trees to pick them himself.... Tilting his head back, he drained the goblet. There were plum trees in the Two Rivers, but no orchards of them, and certainly not across any river. Keep your bloody memories to yourself, he snarled at Lews Therin. The man in his head laughed at something, giggling quietly to himself.**

**TITLE: Fires of Heaven,, CHAPTER: 6 - Gateways

"Why would Rahvin choose now to attack me? Asmodean says he looks to his own interests, that he'll sit to one side even in the Last Battle, if he can, and wait for the Dark One to destroy me. Why not Sammael, or Demandred? Asmodean says they hate me." Not me. They hate Lews Therin. But to the Forsaken, that was the same thing. Please, Light, I am Rand al'Thor. He pushed away a sudden memory of this woman in his arms, both of them young and just learning what they could do with the Power. I am Rand al'Thor! "Why not Semirhage, or Moghedien, or Graen-?"**

**TITLE: Winter's Heart, CHAPTER: 33 - Blue Carp Street

"There were meat pies called pasties when I was a boy, Lews Therin murmured. We would buy them in the country and. . . .**

So Rand does have memories fro, other than Lews Therin's death -- he does have memories from his youth.

**I'm curious whether you consider Mat a similar case or not. His 'barrier' could be said to have degraded. Would even Old Blood be a temporary weakening of the barrier? Moiraine seemed to explain it as such.**

Possibly. I tried to keep this explicitly to the taint, since it was the most prevelant ;)

**When you are reading it, it seems that Rahvin is doing it, but when I thought longer, it seemed a bit too close to some of Rand's personal problems for comfort.**

It's Rahvin doing it -- that's why they immediately stop once Nynaeve engulfs him in flame to take him away from what he was doing.

**Unfortunately, I can't work out whether it is dodgy or not- but I would like to hear some other opinions about the barrier being down in T'a'r, you know, how? why?**

I don't think of it being down per se. For the Heroes at least (since we don't know for sure if normal people can do this as well), they just seem to be able to recall all their lives or a great multitude. They are still seperate (how they can be individual books, like Birgitte), but it's like looking at a bookshelf, compared to existing as a page in a book ;)

23

silverwolf: 2005-09-29

"Rand hasn't gone back into tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh, since his battle with Ishamael."

Callandor, although I agree that TAR is not responsible, the above statement is untrue. Rand enters TAR in the flesh while battling Rahvin, and he had entered at multiple other points after TDR--he checked on the forts in Illian in TAR, he spied on Egwene in TAR to find the location of Salidar, and he went back in TAR to change the weaves around Callandor after Asmodean taught him how to invert weaves, if I remember correctly.

I'd like to hear more about your theory that Ishy/Moridin is the "third man"--is this simply a parallel between the shadow's champion and the light's, or is there a less philisophical reason as well. Either way, it sounds like about as good of a guess as I've heard.

24

therobotbadger: 2005-09-29

** I'm curious whether you consider Mat a similar case or not. His 'barrier' could be said to have degraded. Would even Old Blood be a temporary weakening of the barrier? Moiraine seemed to explain it as such. **

RJ has said that Mat's memories are not from his past lives, just from men who have gone to the lands of the 'Finn.

The old blood is also not something from a person's past lives, but from their ancestors by bloodline.

Barrier Degradation as put forth in this theory only plays a role when a person receives memories and/or experiences from their own soul's "records", so to speak: information directly from past lives. Neither Mat's memories nor examples of the old blood coming through can be explained by barrier degradation, at least not in this sense.

25

Heron: 2005-09-30

You suggest the model of a jar for the soul's current personality. It stands to reason, then, that previous personslities have been in jars (or that same jar) before. Perhaps they still are in jars. LTT was driven mad by the taint, accepted fact. He (IMHO) killed himself by overdrawing far past what he could hold.

**TITLE: The Eye of the World, PROLOGUE - Dragonmount

Quickly he had drawn more of the One Power than he could channel unaided; his skin felt as if it were aflame. Straining, he forced himself to draw more, tried to draw it all.**

LTT's barrier suffered in his last moments of life. If we accept the model of a lid on a jar, his lid had acid all over it. That lid (still has to exist in some way, else LTT and a billion other previous Dragon-soulers) had thousands of years to corrode. Now, we have Rand's barrier destroying itself, too. LTT is real, just no longer contained within his jar. Perhaps he has been re-contained by the dragon soul within Rand, perhaps merely an echo of him, but he's not in his jar. That's why no other previous personalities are floating around in Rand's head. (I am in favour of the LTT is not really in Rand's head stream of thought, but I thought I'd throw both ideas out there> LTT is real, he may or may not really be in Rand's head. A facet of him is, just as some of his memories are.)

26

therobotbadger: 2005-09-30

I'm interested in playing with the jar analogy. Some definitions: The "jar" is the person, and into this jar is packed all their experiences during life. At death, a "lid" is put on their jar, the lid serving as a barrier between a past life and whatever new life they have after being spun out. We know all this already from earlier uses of the analogy.

My spin is this: what if, instead of lines of jars representing past lives, we have jars within jars? So that when a person is reborn, the completed old jar from their last life is inside their current jar, or life. So everyone has the complete record or memories from their past life inside them, which has its past record inside it, so on ad infinitum. This doesn't change the use of the analogy with Rand, as he can still take in massive amounts of the Taint and degrade the "lid" of LTT's "jar".

This is nothing new or shocking, just a slightly different conception. I like it, though, because it implies that everyone has the records of their lives stored inside them, just sealed away. How, though, this relates to the Heroes, I don't know.

27

JakOShadows: 2005-09-30

Heron: I don't think the jars idea was meant to explain actuall people, but rather their memories. The dragon soul will always be the same person(soul identity), but the memories are separated. It sounds like your refering to his past life soul be separate and it isn't. And there is really only one jar. So there is a barrier between Rand and LTT, then between LTT and the person before him. So only one barrier would need to break down for LTT's memories to be in Rand's head. If LTT was affect by the taint that much, then the third person would be in Rand's head too. But then that brings up the question of how much LTT channeled in relation to Rand, which we have no way of knowing. But I never thought about the effects of the taint on LTT affecting Rand. It is a possibility.

28

Garayur: 2005-09-30

I like the jar in a jar idea, It make's more sense, than the stacked jars. So Birgette's memories is more along the line of reaching through the layer's of jar's and the older the memory the smaller the jar and harder to read.

29

Lauric: 2005-09-30


First off i'd like to say, wow Cal, excellent theory and very well argued. I wholeheartedly agree as it's been on my mind awhile I just never put all those pieces together. Bravo.

Second...

****Moghedien (from your own quote) recognises Birgitte's soul**

Which is never fully explained.**

Wouldn't Birgitte be recognizable by Moggy simply from their battle in AoL? From what I see, the most recent incarnation of a Hero is what is seen in TAR or when called by the Horn. Is it, perhaps, that each Hero is born only once an age? I.E. If LTT is Rand's last incarnation, he was born at the end of the 2nd Age and again at the end of the 3rd. If thats the case, Birgitte would have been born near LTT to fight beside him in the War of Power, thus she was probably ready to be spit out when she was torn out by Moggy. (Where's Gaidal? They're always lovers, so it would stand to reason that they are spun near the same time). I could be wrong, I havn't seen the guide and don't remember it being explained anywhere in the series.

**RJ has said that Mat's memories are not from his past lives, just from men who have gone to the lands of the 'Finn. **

I want to see where RJ said that. Proof of him having previous memories prior to Rhuidean, you say?

*Book 3: The Dragon Reborn*

*Chapter 19: Awakening *

*Pages: 215-217 *

"Muad'drin tia dar allende caba'drin rhadiem," he murmered. The words were only sounds, yet they sparked--something.

The packed lines of spearmen stretched a mile or more to either side below him, dotted with the pennants and banners of towns and cities and minor Houses. The river secured his flank on the left, the bogs and mires on the right. From the hillside he watched the spearmen struggle against the mass of Trollocs trying to break through, ten times the humans' number. Spears pierced black Trolloc mail, and spiked axes carved bloody gaps in the human ranks. Screams and bellows harried the air. The sun burned hot overhead in a cloudless sky, and shimmers of heat rose above the battle line. Arrows still rained down from the enemy, slaying Trolloc and human alike. He had called his archers back, but the Dreadlords did not care so long as they broke his line. On the ridge behind him, the Heart Guard awaited his command, horses stamping impatiently. Armor on men and horses alike shone silver in the sunlight; neither men nor animals could stand the heat much longer.

They must win here or die. He was known as a gambler; it was time to toss the dice. In a voice that carried over the tumult below, he gave the order as he swung up into his saddle. "Footmen prepare to pass cavalry forward!" His bannerman rode close beside him, the Red Eagle banner flapping over his head, as the command was repeated up and down the line.

Below, the spearmen suddenly moved, sidestepping with good discipline, narrowing their formations, opening wide gaps between. Gaps into which the Trollocs poured, roaring bestial cries, like a black, oozing tide of death.

He drew his sword, raised it high. "Forward the Heart Guard!" He dug his heels in, and his mount leaped down the slope. Behind him, hooves thundered in the charge. "Forward!" He was the first to strike into the Trollocs, his sword rising and falling, his bannerman close behind. "For the honor of the Red Eagle!" The Heart Guard pounded into the gaps between the spearmen, smashing the tide, hurling it back. "The Red Eagle!" Half-human faces snarled at him, oddly curved swords sought him, but he cut his way ever deeper. Win or die. "



Manetheren!"

Mat's hand trembled as he raised it to his forehead."
Los Valdar Cuebiyari," he muttered. He was almost sure he knew what it meant--"Forward the Heart Guard," or maybe "The Heart Guard will advance"-- but that could not be. Moiraine had told him a few words of the Old Tongue, and those were all he knew of it. The rest might as well be magpie chatter."

Sounds to me like The Gambler might be a Hero of the Horn, and Mat is him reborn (or at the very least has some memories of this man or battles in general before he goes to Rhuidean). However, if RJ specifically said no, then ok, but until I see where he said it, I have to stick with the proof in front of my eyes. (Odd that I read that chapter not an hour before seeing this theory...)

30

Tristin: 2005-09-30

Callandor's theory makes me rethink the metaphysics of Randland in Platonic terms. It would be really interesting if someone took the time to identify parallels between Randland and Plato's concept of the Forms. For Plato our souls pre-exist our bodies in the world of Forms. Forms are "real" whilst things like tables, chairs and lamps aren't things at all, but just copies, or reflections of the Forms: Table, Chair, Lamp etc. When a soul is born into the world as a baby she loses the knowledge of the world of forms. As a child learns in the world, she recollects perceptibles. She learns that there are all different kinds of tables which participate in the Form of tableness with varying degrees of excellence...but all are mere shadows, perversions, or deficiencies. An example would be the mona lisa. The original is the form, a replica is a very good, or perhaps excellent copy, but still not the real thing. A 4.99 poster/print of the mona lisa is also recognizable as a copy of the mona lisa, but is of even poorer quality, and a postcard or polaroid of it would be even worse. Yet if one knows what the Mona Lisa (original) is, then one can recollect the original by seeing one of the copies (even if it has a mustache drawn on it).

Callandor's theory is interesting because if he is right about the barrier, it might be the case that Rand is not exactly psychological constructing a person (becoming schitzophrenic) in order to bottle up his emotions, but he may be Platonicly recollecting. Such an analogy would raise questions about TAR as possibly the place of forms...and being there in the flesh takes on a whole new meaning. What happens when a copy enters into the world of originals...When reflections occur in TAR and they pop back is that because they are reflecting copies? If Birgitte is ripped out of TAR (the world of Forms) then that is exactly why she wouldn't have the amnesia and recollection would be perfect...she also might begin to loose her memory of the Forms and past perceptibles (other lives) as she immersed herself in the world of copies.

This also does wonders for explaining the transport-thingy stones, and the parallel realities.

If Rand really is going mad due to the taint, then something needs to happen so that he can participate more excellently in the Form of Dragon-ness :-)

31

Callandor: 2005-10-01

**Callandor, although I agree that TAR is not responsible, the above statement is untrue.**

Yes, but my comment was about the time between when Rand battle Ishamael, until the time Rand fights Rahvin. That's basically from The Shadow Rising, until the very end of The Fires of Heaven -- between that time we see the most amount of change in Rand and Lews Therin, and he does not go back and forth between Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh to make these dramatic changes.

**I'd like to hear more about your theory that Ishy/Moridin is the "third man"--is this simply a parallel between the shadow's champion and the light's, or is there a less philisophical reason as well. Either way, it sounds like about as good of a guess as I've heard.**

Somewhat -- I also feel it might be an effect of the crossing of balefire streams. This is also I feel the only way for Rand to realize that Ishamael is Moridin, without Moridin simply saying it to him. And that is obviously going to happen eventually ;)

** That lid (still has to exist in some way, else LTT and a billion other previous Dragon-soulers) had thousands of years to corrode.**

No, he was dead.

**LTT is real, just no longer contained within his jar. Perhaps he has been re-contained by the dragon soul within Rand, perhaps merely an echo of him, but he's not in his jar. That's why no other previous personalities are floating around in Rand's head.**

But it doesn't explain the growth of Lews Therin over time. If he was real, he should've gone from not there -- to fully apparent. He doesn't; it's a slow growth. Furthermore, Lews Therin should've been with Rand since he was born basically, if he was real.

32

Traveller: 2005-10-01

Garayur: Thanks, but I thought that it seems more likely for Rand's memories of LTT to be all messed up and mixeed up because he only has holes in the barrier, but if the Heroes in TAR have the barrier completely down, it could be as if they see each life seperately and dividing coz they see the whole picture no just bits that come into their heads at odd points.

33

Callandor: 2005-10-01

**Wouldn't Birgitte be recognizable by Moggy simply from their battle in AoL?**

Yes, but it's never explained how Moghedien knew that Birgitte was reborn in the Age of Legends. Birgitte herself has no idea how Moghedien knew, just that she did.

**Is it, perhaps, that each Hero is born only once an age?**

No, Birgitte has been born at least twice in the 3rd Age, and that implies that Gaidal Cain has too. We know this since she still has rememberances of being in the Borderlands under different names, as well as being able to recognize accents, and all other knowledge from both pre-Trolloc Wars and pre-Hawkwing, which are aaround 1000 years apart.

** However, if RJ specifically said no, then ok, but until I see where he said it, I have to stick with the proof in front of my eyes.**

RJ saying that Mat's memories were from the Finn is obviously in reference to his battle memories and such. The one you are bringing up is almost assuredly the Old Blood.

34

Astra-al: 2005-10-02

With Birgitte, we only have Birgitte saying that Moghedien recognized her in the Age of Legends. I've wondered if its just an empty threat she makes to scare her. Unless Moghedien had the fortelling or a Dream that told her she would do that, she would have no idea she would.... Then when moghedien forces birgitte out, she just saw the chance to actually follow through.

I don't know maybe... maybe not.

35

Astra-al: 2005-10-02

Another thing I've forgotten to mention...

I've had an idea about the taint. But there is not near enough evidence for me to prove it, much less argue convincingly about it, I just wanted to mention it.

1. The taint is the TP

2. The taint was placed on saidin by accident.

This is because, the Bore was open just enough for the DO to use the TP himself or possible someone else wielded it such as Ishamael. The point is, when Lews Therin and the hundred companions strike, he's like “OMG” and just strikes back with the TP just as they seal him in.

(I also think that the seals were a conduit for the taint, and that was the only reason that taint was allowed to stay, because then the DO could not remove the TP as he was sealed. I also think that if the seals were destroyed, then the DO COULD remove the taint, but would have chosen not to because there was not enough for them to use it for their own purposes and it was causing them to go mad. But I also kind of think that it's the fact that the DO was not ‘granting' them use of it that makes them go mad. I also think that any of the chosen could wield the TP whenever, but it would cause them to go mad. But all of this stuff would be next to impossible to prove.)

This could explain Ishamaels “mad” rantings. Since he uses almost solely the TP the barriers between his past lives would be near gone. This would explain how he would know of the eternal battles between good and evil.

Also, it kind of makes sense because the DO's power is in death/destruction. Thus the TP corrodes as it is wielded, but when wielded as the TP it corrodes much faster.

If this is right, then who is the one person who has wielded more taint than Rand...? Ishamael, the only one who it seems could have the most previous memories.

Anyways, I just thought I would share those thoughts with y'all.

36

JakOShadows: 2005-10-03

Astra'al: I do think your statement are logical there. It just seems like a giant leap from the taint being the TP, and that evidence would be Ishmael is crazy because he uses the TP. Because isn't there a quote in FoH(not sure) that says that he was crazy before the bore was sealed. But besides that it does seem a logical assumption as the DO would be fighting the seal which would create a backlash. And the stuff you mention also reminds me of the end of CoS at SL, when the streams of balefire cross. Maybe that's why Rand seems to have gained a lot of the taint, because if the TP is taint, then he has just been touched with a lot of it in that crossing weave. But more quotes would really sell me on the idea, if you could find them.

37

silverwolf: 2005-10-03

"1. The taint is the TP"

Don't think so. The Fosaken repeatedly think of the TP as something that can only be drawn upon with the DO's permission, not as something that every male channeler draws upon but only they can use. I realize that this isn't definitive, but you'd have to come up with more evidence to convince many people that the taint is the TP.

"2. The taint was placed on saidin by accident. "

I've considered this myself, but I think it more likely that the DO realized he had an opportunity to taint the source when LTT tried to seal the bore, and he took it. It might have been an accident (he might have simply been trying to kill the hundred companions and the blast travelled through them to the source, or something like that) but the scope of the taint--it lasted for 3000 years and drove some men insane within a year or two of channeling--suggests something more deliberate. Again, this is merely speculation, nothing conclusive.

38

therobotbadger: 2005-10-03

Another problem with the idea that the TP is the Taint is that the Taint cannot be woven.

When the Forsaken use the TP, they USE it. It's similar to the OP, but fundamentally different. After all, the TP was, before the Bore, thought to be another Source usable by both men and women, which it is though not without its other consequences.

The Taint, on the other hand, apparently cannot be woven. It merely sits atop saidin. It can be channeled, in a certain very conditional sense of the word, in that it flows into the channeler with the Power. It is not merely an exposure that occurs with the first seizure of the OP but rather one that continues the whole time the Power is being held or channeled and, as Callandor's theory implies, amount of Taint exposure is directly proportional to Power exposure. But the channeler cannot directly control the amount of Taint "channeled", only indirectly through the amount of OP. Also, the Taint that is carried with saidin is not able to be used for anything; it merely accumulates over time "inside" the channeler in some aparently metaphysical way.

None of this says that the Taint is not made of the same substance as the TP, but it does raise the question of why can't the male channelers use the Taint as the Forsaken can? Why aren't they able to truely channel the Taint, instead of only halfway channeling it? And if the Taint and the TP ARE the same, why do the male Forsaken (specifically Ishamael, since he's the most rabid user) need Taint protection if they've got voluntary access to the Taint (via TP)?

39

Astra-al: 2005-10-03

The TP is still only accessible through the DO's permission, however, when the Hundred Companions went and sealed the Bore, the DO just freaked out, and struck out with the TP, and it got attached to saidin because the seals were placed on the bore about the same time the DO struck. Also, with the idea that the taint flows through the seals, that would explain why the seals are weakening, Rand is wielding so much of the taint, that is corrosive, and its flowing through the seals, that it weakens them.

Also, male channelers would not be able to wield the TP because there is such a small amount, and they don't know that it can be used, also, probably they couldn't wield it because they didn't have the DO's permission. Also, why the DO would block the taint from the forsaken is so they wouldn't figure out his weakness, or to keep them from weilding it w/out his permission. I don't know, I'm still a bit fuzzy on the whole thing, it just makes sense to me.

40

therobotbadger: 2005-10-03

**the idea that the taint flows through the seals**

The Taint doesn't flow through the seals. Perhaps the TP flows through the seals, and maybe the Taint initially came through the seals, but the Taint isn't continuously coming through the seals. It is on saidin. If the Taint came through the seals, that means it would be continuously flowing from the DO. If this were true, the DO would be able to replenish any Taint that was taken away, and Rand would never have been able to Cleanse the Source. The whole idea behind the Cleansing is that all of the Taint can be removed, but if the Taint is coming through the Seals that means the DO has the ability to simply put it all back. Since we know that the Taint can be, and has been, Cleansed, we know that the Taint does not come through the Seals.

41

Callandor: 2005-10-04

**1. The taint is the TP**

It stands to reason that it's an amount of the True Power or some form of it, yes.

**2. The taint was placed on saidin by accident.**

Debatable. The circumstances that allowed it to come about certainly seem to be an accident (but were more than likely Pattern driven of course) -- but the Dark One seems to have taken a conscious effort to taint saidin. It was just a rare event for him to be able to do it.

**This could explain Ishamaels “mad” rantings. Since he uses almost solely the TP the barriers between his past lives would be near gone. This would explain how he would know of the eternal battles between good and evil.**

Maybe, all depends on if the taint truely is the True Power (it stands a very good chance of it).

But, a lot of Ishamael's "rantings" seem to be things that are possible to be figured out by a philosopher like Ishamael on his own -- they're just warped by his own ego a bit.

**I realize that this isn't definitive, but you'd have to come up with more evidence to convince many people that the taint is the TP.**

What other power does the Dark One have to use as taint?

**None of this says that the Taint is not made of the same substance as the TP, but it does raise the question of why can't the male channelers use the Taint as the Forsaken can?**

Because the Dark One allows the Forsaken to use the True Power.

**And if the Taint and the TP ARE the same, why do the male Forsaken (specifically Ishamael, since he's the most rabid user) need Taint protection if they've got voluntary access to the Taint (via TP)?**

Good point, but there is a difference from using something in a needed situation, than being unable to use what you commmonly use without suffering the same consequences. Again, it pretty much boils down to:

1. We know that the Dark One tainted saidin.

2. What other force does the Dark One have to taint saidin with, other than the True Power?

**Also, with the idea that the taint flows through the seals, that would explain why the seals are weakening, Rand is wielding so much of the taint, that is corrosive, and its flowing through the seals, that it weakens them.**

But they've had 3500+ years of taint and previous male channelers, and they didn't have a problem before.

**Since we know that the Taint can be, and has been, Cleansed, we know that the Taint does not come through the Seals.**

No, just not continually, as you said in the beginning. As you said as well, it clearly did come through the seals at one point when saidin was tainted.

42

Astra-al: 2005-10-04

Yes I realize there are many weak points in the idea, which is why i merely suggested it here instead of making a whole theory for it. I think the main point of the taint being the TP is true, but the rest I'm still unclear on myself.

43

a dragonburned fool: 2005-10-04

Thank you for this well-written theory, Callandor. I allways appreciated your ideas about the Taint corroding the barrier and now we all can enjoy seeing it as well backuped as one could desire.

As you maybe recall, I used this theory of yours in my Duplicate Personality Processing theory where I stated that LTT's voice is real and not Rand's construct. So of course I have a pair of words to say about this.

***What I mean by that, is that people who think Lews Therin is real believe that the degradation of Rand's barrier allowed Lews Therin's entire personality to cross over into Rand's mind. This I do not believe for two main reasons: 1. A personality is a summation of memories. If Rand had Lews Therin's entire life of memories in his head, I would agree he has his personality. However, to do this, I believe Rand's barrier would have to be entirely degraded. I do not believe that of course ;) It's severely damaged; but not completely gone. 2. If this were true it would mean that Lews Therin would've came over into Rand entirely since the moment the barrier degraded enough to first happen. This means that Lews Therin would've appeared just like he does in Crossroads of Twilight, back in The Shadow Rising or The Fires of Heaven. Rand would've gone from what he was like in that time period, to what he is now in Crossroads. A lot of people do not realize how much of a big change that is. This view does not explain how Lews Therin is growing in presence. It would be like fliping on a lightswitch: Lews Therin wasn't there --> flip --> Lews Therin is there in full swing.***

I think I'm a good example of those people who believe both in the Barrier degradation and LTT's reality, but actually I believe that LTT can be a voice exactly because not all of LTT's memories still leaked into Rand's mind. The key point of our disagreement here seems to be the concept of personality.

You said that personality is a summation of memories, but I'd say this is an innaccurate and misleading statement. Personality really is something about memories, but not summation of them. Personality is rather making use of the memories. Personality is how one perceives new experience and how one reacts to new facts and how one anticipates future facts, all it based on past experience. Personality is how one's past is shaping one's presence and future. In this it corresponds in many points to the concept of thread. But later about this. Now it's more important, that personality has to do more with the general style of organizing the totality of a thread, than with the pure inventory of memories.

Personality is style, and this style is what actually makes personalities different. This style is based on experievnce and memories, but it becomes independent of particular memories later, because it shapes every othe deed of the person in hard to be traced details. And it determines the shape of next memories. It changes with the progress of life experience, processing everything that happens to the individual. It causes the older memories to appear in another light when people get older and remember. One can forget a lot of his past, one can suffer or amnesia, but still remain the same personality until the style remains alive. While Mat e.g. can have full memories from other guys, and still be not touched by another personality, because all that memories would be organized and used through Mat's own personality, and Mat's personal style filter will decide how to place them into Mat's life process and activity. Personality can become independent of particular memories, when it gets speed, but personality must start with some memories.

So far so good and no threat for Callandor's theory until now. But now the concept of soul comes into the game and disturbs what everything said before would mean for our real world. There is a soul in WoTworld and this has it's consequences. Soul does start every time from zero when reborn, and has to develop a new personality. Soul needs some experience to start with and the result is a personality. Put a soul into a world and the result will be developing a personality. The past life's memory doesn't fade away, but there is barrier preventing the soul taking from all ressources. What happens when a soul is in a new body, but there is no barrier - we see it in the recycled Forsaken - the old personality is revived based on the memory of previous body. This is what is in charge of shaping the new experience, the new body also has influence, but the old memory is in charge. Osan'gar refers the time between his death and recycling as sleep without dreams, i.e. his soul was not working and Aginor's personality was simply not working. Most likely Osan'gar is a thread different of Aginor's thread. But a soul gets into a body and it has access to full memories and the old personality is revived. It is what happens to a soul that has access to older memories, souls just react so in such conditions.

However if there is stronger personality already in charge, the older personality could be assimilated by the master personality. This is what I think happens with Heroes while in TAR.

Now the case with Rand al'Thor. When the Barrier becomes corrupted, there are two things already in Rand - the Rand personality in process of developement, and a soul. Rand personality assumes some LTT memories and organizes them, Rand incorporated them as it incorporates any experience - that are the LTT memories that have nothing to do with LTT's voice. But now the soul also has the access to LTT memories. We've seen that a soul that gets access to older memories tends to revive the old personality, i.e. it tends to turn on a processing of the new experience shaped by the style of the old experience. If a master personality copes to integrate and swallow the old personality, there's no problem, the old style is merged into the new one. But if the master personality cannot cope.

Now to integrate LTT's personality into his own Rand's personality, Rand needs all of LTT's ressources, and he hasn't it. But to revive the LTT's personality, the soul doesn't need all LTT's memories, it needs only the STYLE of them, a style that is enciphered in each unit of memory. Rand's soul and Rand's personality work at unequal conditions, exacly because the hole in the Barrier is too small. The Soul processes memories from both Rand and LTT origin and it derives personality styles from both, but it cannot integrate them into one single personality. Only a personality can integrate experience, souls can only feed that process. So the soul is feeding two independent styles of reaction. Whatever events Rand is expereincing now, the souls turns on both processes of filtering the factual information. Only one of the processes ("Rand") has control over the body, so Rand is still stronger, but LTT can see Rand's events through own mind. "LTT" doesn't know how to manage Rand's body, because it depends on Rand's experience from his earliest life, something LTT has not full access into.

There's more to be said here, but I think the kernel of my reasons is clear.

***3. The voice of Lews Therin is a personality that basically exists as the output for Rand's supressed emoitions (one of the key things he does at least). Think of it like what it takes to make fire. You need three things: A. Heat B. Oxygen C. Fuel. Take away one of them, the fire will die out or will not form in the first place. I feel Lews Therin works on the same principle -- without Rand's supression of emotions, a key part of what makes Lews Therin will be gone, even if the memories will continue to cross over into Rand. Rand will get the memories, but there won't be a voice trying to talk to Rand, and trying to take him over.***

Rand's LTT-related experiences are actually marked by very intensive Rand's own emotions, most notably sorrow and anger. The best example here is Rand's list of women who died because of him. You just cannot say that Rand is suppressing his emotions in relation to this, actually it is one of his most unleashed emotions. It is strong example of grief feelings and Rand does nothing to suppress them and he feels he hasn't right to suppress them. Rand's time in Far Madding prison is especially important - Rand is intentionally recalling all his faults for to feel them without any restraints and so to feed his anger and "hardness". LTT is "helping" him by that. Another cases of LTT occurence are times wher Rand feels himself scared or desperate and doesn't manage well to keep appearing hard. So it is when Aes Sedai captured Rand in the chest. So is in the end stadium of the campaign against Seanchan, when he became tired and became more difficult to control himself, and remarkably when LTT reappears, Rand reacts by laughing.

This is actually not a point in the discussion between "LTT a construct" and "LTT real". More precise specification about how emotions create "LTT" is completely possible. Something more, "laugh and tears" are not simply emotions, but a very specific sort of emotions. That are emotions that in contrast to grief and anger do not feed tensions, but rather resolve tensions. And suppressing emotions can aid psychotic problems not because lack of emotions but because suppressing emotions creates emotional tensions. Tensions that could happen also without suppressing. I would insist however that the difference between soul and personality is a factor your interpretation is missing. Emotional tensions are something that makes harder Personality's main function to absorb and organize experience, so Rand personality cannot manage with the alternative personality style, Rand cannot absorb LTT under emotional tensions, and LTT becomes satndalone because the Soul is processing the memories it gets independently of whether the personality copes or not.

***A final puzzle that many theories on Lews Therin fail to answer is: where did Lews Therin go from portions of A Crown of Swords to The Path of Daggers? He just disappears. Why? How? Where? ... But what is one of the key things about Lews Therin? He's an outlet for Rand's emotions. Once Rand starts to express his own emotions -- Lews Therin isn't needed anymore. What happens soon afterwards is that Rand goes back to being the Dragon Reborn; he goes back to supressing everything. And, eventually, Lews Therin returns.***

Cadsuane's approach, as stated in her own PoV, has the purpose to disbalance a person, make him react in a simpler manner and this simpler manner would allow Cadsuane finding apporach to control that person. Cadsuane's method is to act in unexpected way and so to break people's experience to cope with situation. Actually this makes the emotional tensions in people's minds to break down and people need somebody to guide them for to react. Here's Cadsuane interferes. She is greatmster in returning people in the state of reactons they had when they were children. This is something accidentally very unfavourable for LTT-personality, because LTT-personality can feed of Rand's present experience, LTT can give his interpretations of Rand's present experience and so he could try overriding Rand's personality main job, but when Rand returnes to his earlier manner of reaction, LTT cannot interfere. LTT has no full access to Rand's memories and he has no control there.

***So, by this, if Lews Therin were to take over -- nothing would happen. Rand's personality wouldn't disappear; Rand would realize it was truely himself.***

Style, everything here is about style. Whoever will take over in both cases the bothe personalities will merge and the Dragon will realize that it is who is truely was. But what style will have this onness, this is the question. A very important question, because Rand's and LTT's styles are different. And it would lead to different manner of Dragon's actions. And for the Dragon reborn the style of his actions will be of critical importance for the world. Since souls are designed by the Creator from one thread only, since LTT is there in a unnatural way, Rand's vectory would be more "natural" than LTT's victory, i.e. it will be more Wheel-according (since the Wheel controls the nature) and therefore more suitable to Rand's role to defend the Wheel from DO. So if LTT takes over it would more likely lead to a wrong course of actions of the Dragon.

Finally a brief remark about other channelers:

***I've explained this GLotD. The taint does degrade their barriers -- just not enough for their barriers to be weakened enough to be pierced and memories to come through.***

In this case former false dragons are to be expected to maybe also being with somewhat degraded barriers. Because what a typical False Dragon does? One word - lots of battles. We know how Power-consuming a single battle is. Ashaman practice all the time, but they suddenly jump in OP-strength after a single battle. Every false Dragon experienced many battles. Many. In each one of them one single man is to do a plenty of most critical job. That means really many OP flowing through them. Lot of Logain's behavior makes me suspicious that he has som very special connection ot Guaire Amalasan. And lot of things around Taim would find explanation if we suggest that he has some past-life memories sometimes.

44

Lauric: 2005-10-04

**RJ saying that Mat's memories were from the Finn is obviously in reference to his battle memories and such. The one you are bringing up is almost assuredly the Old Blood.**

Why is it that nobody else randomly has these memories or bursts out with the Old Tongue? Especially, since they share the same actual blood, Bode Cauthon.

45

JakOShadows: 2005-10-04

Astra'al: Now that I think about, there have been some fairly obvious objections to it, I was just not thinking at the time. And also think that RJ said somewhere that the taint put on saidin had been planned ages before it happened, so that rules that it was an accident and that it was just the trapping of the TP. It's almost as if he knew they would come to seal the hole, and he created this tainted oil substance to slam between the source when they sealed the bore. It may have been created using the TP, but it seemed too much planned to be the TP.

46

Heron: 2005-10-04

Callandor:

I apologise for disagreeing, but I disagree with the way you disagree with me. Let me explain:

**** That lid (still has to exist in some way, else LTT and a billion other previous Dragon-soulers) had thousands of years to corrode.**

No, he was dead.**

True, he was dead, but where do all of his memories go? They still exist, or else Rand couldn't access them. Taking your initial jar model, the barrier between past lives is like the lid, but there must be a barrier between every life, or Rand would get memories from all of them once his barrier weakened. (Please note that I say weakened, it relates to my other point in this post)

The way I saw barriers was as a bunch of bubbles around the memories of past lives AND those of the present life. If one barrier weakens, those memories are allowed, depending on the severity of weakness, into the space between all the barriers. See where I'm going? Rand's barrier has to be weakened for him to obtain any past memories, but the barrier on those memories also has to be weakened. At least, that's the way I see it. That should clear up a bit about the next point, too, if not all:

****LTT is real, just no longer contained within his jar. Perhaps he has been re-contained by the dragon soul within Rand, perhaps merely an echo of him, but he's not in his jar. That's why no other previous personalities are floating around in Rand's head.**

But it doesn't explain the growth of Lews Therin over time. If he was real, he should've gone from not there -- to fully apparent. He doesn't; it's a slow growth. Furthermore, Lews Therin should've been with Rand since he was born basically, if he was real.**

Why would LTT appear fully formed? I don't propose that either barrier is gone completely, just that they are weaker than they should be. A few memories are all that can fit at a time. Have you ever watched someone drink a water bottle? The bubbles that go up, the release of pressure, is necessary for a transfer, and they represent the maximum possible transfer at that time. Without a bigger hole, no more air can leak in until it has displaced more water. Now, applying that to LTT and Rand, Rand can't assimilate ny more LTT until either his barrier weakens more, or something is displaced. His memories, "his" LTT memories, something. You say that LTT in Rand's head is just a rationalisation of his memories? I ask you, what is a person but the sum (and interactions that that entails) of his experiences? Experiences become memories. LTT's personality is constant, where his memories are. Some of his memories bring some of his personality.

Sorry, one more thing just occurred to me. Remember the water example? Have you ever thrown water in the air and just watched it? Or raindrops on a car windshield? You know how they bunch together into one big drop, given enough contact and time? I bet that sort of thing will happen with Rand and LTT's memory pools. Min's viewing said something about two men, merging into one? LTT and Rand, the memories. Wait, found the quote:

**TITLE: A Crown Of Swords, CHAPTER: 33 - A Bath

"I saw you and another man. I couldn't make out the other face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and..." Her mouth tightened worriedly, and she went on in a very small voice. "I don't know what it means, Rand, except that one of you dies, and one doesn't. I-Why are you grinning?"**

Rand is touching LTT's memories, give me that much. Min describes them as two men. So, perhaps two distinct, real personalities? Again, touching is not necessarily like a soap bubble. She didn't say "You touched, and -pop! You were one man." No, she said they seemed to merge into one. Trickling of memories, followed by full assimilation? Back to the wter droplets, the reason they're round is because a sphere has the least surface area. If two incomplete barriers interacted, wouldn't merging allow the strongest use of barrier for both things contained? The least surface area, if you will?

That's why I presented the ideas I did, because I imagine a barrier around each memory set, not just the current one.

Now, to blow my own idea out of the water, what if the barriers were, in fact, like layers of oil and water inside the jar? (Perhaps each successive layer is heated more than the previous ones, and so has less density. Perhaps after a certain ammount of time the layers cool enough to merge at the bottom, so that only the top five or six are distinct. As long as I'm playing with your idea, why not play in as many directions as I can?)

47

Astra-al: 2005-10-04

Are you sure he said it? Do you think you'd be able to find it?

Also, I don't see how it seems planned... It seems rather spontaneous to me, but maybe i'm just overlooking some obvious fact.

48

Anubis: 2005-10-05

Im way too lazy to read 20 pages but anyhoooo...

Callandor, how do you explain Briggite? She has had no contact with saidin and yet the "barrier" between her memories seems to be nonexistant. She cant remember them all true, but that seems to be more a function of memory and lack of storage then anything else..

49

Callandor: 2005-10-05

**You said that personality is a summation of memories, but I'd say this is an innaccurate and misleading statement.**

Look it up in the dictionary.

**Personality is how one's past is shaping one's presence and future.**

Yes, and you'd need the person's entire past and with that all their memories, to have their personality.

**One can forget a lot of his past, one can suffer or amnesia, but still remain the same personality until the style remains alive.**

One would not have the same personality if they forgotten the major things of their life. Say a person wants to be a doctor, but their father dies due to malpractice -- now they don't want to be a doctor.

Now say they get amnesia and completely forget what happened to their father, but still remember they want to be a doctor. They're personality has changed, since they no longer have the memories that made the original change from "I want to be a doctor" to "I don't want to be a doctor." The lack of memories makes the comparing personalities distinctly different.

**While Mat e.g. can have full memories from other guys, and still be not touched by another personality, because all that memories would be organized and used through Mat's own personality, and Mat's personal style filter will decide how to place them into Mat's life process and activity.**

Notice how Mat is no longer suspicious of every single person who comes near him -- as he was before his memories of carring the dagger were largely eaten away.

** Most likely Osan'gar is a thread different of Aginor's thread.**

Yes, becuase it's a different body, and a thread is the combination of a soul and a body. But that doesn't effect the definition of a personality.

**But a soul gets into a body and it has access to full memories and the old personality is revived. It is what happens to a soul that has access to older memories, souls just react so in such conditions.**

It's what happens with a soul is exposed to all previous memories. As you said yourself, there never was a barrier. In Rand, there clearly is still, otherwise all of Lews Therin's memories would be in Rand.

**However if there is stronger personality already in charge, the older personality could be assimilated by the master personality. This is what I think happens with Heroes while in TAR.**

What are you talking about? In the transmigrated Forsaken there aren't two seperate personalities -- it's the same personality continuing to gain memories. Once a person dies (like the Heroes who go back to tel'aran'rhiod), it stands perfectly to reason that a barrier is already in place. Furthermore, they would only be that one personality, not a seperate one as well.

**When the Barrier becomes corrupted, there are two things already in Rand - the Rand personality in process of developement, and a soul.**

But Rand's personality is being added to the soul. The soul holds all the memories, and Rand's personality is all those memories.

**Rand personality assumes some LTT memories and organizes them, Rand incorporated them as it incorporates any experience - that are the LTT memories that have nothing to do with LTT's voice. But now the soul also has the access to LTT memories.**

Wait, you already said Rand has access to some of Lews Therin's memories -- either they add to the voice or they don't. All the memories would form a basis for what Lews Therin is, not just a selected group.

**We've seen that a soul that gets access to older memories tends to revive the old personality, i.e. it tends to turn on a processing of the new experience shaped by the style of the old experience.**

Please quote those examples, for I know of none. As I've explained, the Forsaken are not an example -- as you've said, they didn't have a barrier put in place, so it's a continuation of the same personality just gaining new memories; there isn't any "reviving" of the personality.

**But to revive the LTT's personality, the soul doesn't need all LTT's memories, it needs only the STYLE of them, a style that is enciphered in each unit of memory.**

False, again look up the defintion of personality -- it's the summation of all memories.

**Only a personality can integrate experience, souls can only feed that process.**

Where is that stated?

**There's more to be said here, but I think the kernel of my reasons is clear.**

Hardly, adf.

**Rand's LTT-related experiences are actually marked by very intensive Rand's own emotions, most notably sorrow and anger. The best example here is Rand's list of women who died because of him. You just cannot say that Rand is suppressing his emotions in relation to this, actually it is one of his most unleashed emotions.**

What on earth are you talking about? I've made it abundantly clear that Rand and Lews Therin have an emotional connection that Rand is suppressing emotions, and Lews Therin is expressing them.

** It is strong example of grief feelings and Rand does nothing to suppress them and he feels he hasn't right to suppress them.**

Are you kidding me?! All Rand does is suppress them. Why do you think he burns them into his mind, instead of expressing the grief? The only damn person that Rand has come close to expressing his emotions about the list is with Perrin after Dumai's Wells. Sulin might come close since she knows the reasoning behind it, but she doesn't know of the list. Rand does nothing but suppress the list -- he burns himself with the list and it's suppression.

** LTT is "helping" him by that.**

Quote at all?

**Another cases of LTT occurence are times wher Rand feels himself scared or desperate and doesn't manage well to keep appearing hard. So it is when Aes Sedai captured Rand in the chest. So is in the end stadium of the campaign against Seanchan, when he became tired and became more difficult to control himself, and remarkably when LTT reappears, Rand reacts by laughing.**

And how is this linked to Lews Therin? Rand keeps plenty hard numerous times with Lews Therin present -- it's only the time he actually expresses emotions that Lews Therin seems to disappear.

** I would insist however that the difference between soul and personality is a factor your interpretation is missing.**

How so? The soul keeps the personality -- where's the difference? Furthermore, I haven't shown a difference in soul vs personality, because it's pointless to establish one.

We know Rand has one soul. We know he's one personality. We know there is another in his head that is Lews Therin. We know that personalities are kept on souls.

I mean, what the hell is the difference that you seem to be saying is so vital? I can only assume it's a bunch of ramblings that has absolutely no point other than to sound convincing.

**Emotional tensions are something that makes harder Personality's main function to absorb and organize experience,**

Complete supposition by you with no backing....

**Actually this makes the emotional tensions in people's minds to break down and people need somebody to guide them for to react.**

Can you please explain what you are saying?

**Here's Cadsuane interferes. She is greatmster in returning people in the state of reactons they had when they were children.**

Yeah, she makes Rand angry -- you can say it simply without expounding for no reason.

**This is something accidentally very unfavourable for LTT-personality, because LTT-personality can feed of Rand's present experience, LTT can give his interpretations of Rand's present experience and so he could try overriding Rand's personality main job, but when Rand returnes to his earlier manner of reaction, LTT cannot interfere. LTT has no full access to Rand's memories and he has no control there.**

Again, what the heck are you saying?

It's this simple:

Lews Therin expresses the emotions Rand suppresses.

Rand begins to express emotions (Cadsuane flippin pisses him off).

Lews Therin goes away.

Rand goes back to supressing emotions.

Lews Therin comes back.

Where is the damn difficulty here??

**Whoever will take over in both cases the bothe personalities will merge and the Dragon will realize that it is who is truely was.**

No, they wouldn't merge -- Rand would realize it was himself all along. He would realize that the personality is just a fake, a construct.

**Since souls are designed by the Creator from one thread only, since LTT is there in a unnatural way, Rand's vectory would be more "natural" than LTT's victory, i.e. it will be more Wheel-according (since the Wheel controls the nature) and therefore more suitable to Rand's role to defend the Wheel from DO. So if LTT takes over it would more likely lead to a wrong course of actions of the Dragon.**

1. What the heck do you mean that souls are designed "from one thread only?" Souls are not threads. A thread is the unity of a soul and a body.

2. What the heck do you mean that Rand's victory would be more "Wheel according?" Hey -- the entire thing of Rand getting exposed to enough taint to allow his barrier to weaken enough to have memories cross over and form a constructed personality is all probably done by explicit purpose by the Wheel.

**Because what a typical False Dragon does? One word - lots of battles. We know how Power-consuming a single battle is.**

Except that they're captured or killed quite fast.

Not to mention, most false Dragons are not channelers.

**Ashaman practice all the time, but they suddenly jump in OP-strength after a single battle. Every false Dragon experienced many battles. Many.**

Ah, so battles make channelers jump in strength? Where is this quoted? They jump in strength as they are trained more and do more things with the One Power -- battles explicitly aren't the source of their rise in strength.

** That means really many OP flowing through them.**

If they were all incredibly powerful -- yes. If, like a huge portion of most channelers, they are weak in strength, well guess what? Less saidin.

**Lot of Logain's behavior makes me suspicious that he has som very special connection ot Guaire Amalasan. And lot of things around Taim would find explanation if we suggest that he has some past-life memories sometimes.**

Again, both you and GLotD seem to be thinking it's a common thing for the barrier to be weakened to the degree that it has in Rand -- it's not. It obviously takes a heck of a lot of the One Power being used to get anywhere near the levels it took for Rand. Once again, these symptoms of Rand's didn't even start until he has channeled an extreme amount of saidin in a very large battle with Ishamael by using Callandor, and those were just the extreme beginning of the symptoms. The majority of what we consider symptoms did not start until he channeled 1/2 the amount of the saidin being drawn through the most powerful sa'angreal ever made in a large battle.

You think a pithy false Dragon is going to come close to this?

It's like you have two brick walls that are exactly the same thickness, and are using the exact same drills to poke a hole in them. But one drill is at full power, while the other drill is at a 1/10th power. After say 5 minutes, both drills are turned off -- which wall is almost assuredly going to have a hole in it?

The false Dragons that actually channel certainly degrade their barriers a bit, but just not near the amount it takes to weaken the barrier enough for memories to cross over. They're captured too fast, they're not active long enough, or they're simply not strong enough and it would take them even longer of channeling.

Logain and Taim would be the closest -- but that assumes as well that Taim is not a Darkfriend and had some help, and his story is complete truth (even then, it still might not be enough); Logain as well still probably hasn't channeled near enough.

**Why is it that nobody else randomly has these memories or bursts out with the Old Tongue? Especially, since they share the same actual blood, Bode Cauthon.**

Probably due to blood ties. Think of how they determine who becomes Queen in Andor, by the number of bloodlines. The other confirmed examples of the old blood (Perrin and Egwene, and Nynaeve if you wish), just simply might not have as many blood ties directly to the the Old Blood as Mat does. It's really unknown except to say that in Mat the Old Blood seems to be the stronger than anyone else.

**And also think that RJ said somewhere that the taint put on saidin had been planned ages before it happened, so that rules that it was an accident and that it was just the trapping of the TP.**

Would like to see that quote. I don't believe it was an accident per se, but I don't believe for a moment it was planned ages in advance.

50

Anubis: 2005-10-05

**Yes, and you'd need the person's entire past and with that all their memories, to have their personality. **

Noone has all of their memories and entire past and everyone has their own personality. Rand doesnt remember his infancy yet it affected him.

51

therobotbadger: 2005-10-05

**look up the defintion of personality -- it's the summation of all memories. **

I've looked up several definitions of personality and seen no such thing.

From Wikipedia: "In psychology, personality is a description of consistent emotional, thought, and behavior patterns in a person. " From Merriam-Webster Online: "3 : the complex of characteristics that distinguishes an individual or a nation or group; especially : the totality of an individual's behavioral and emotional characteristics".

Going back to the analogy of the amnesiac. Say two people are exactly the same in every respect (sure, not possible, but it's a simplified model). They both have exactly the same personality. Both people want to be doctors. One person suffers a horrible emotional experience and no longer wants to be a doctor. This same person then contracts amnesia, forgets all the experiences he had that differed from the other person, and wants to be a doctor again.

Now, the question is, do they now have the same personality again? In Callandor's opinion, yes, they do. All their memories are the same, so they must again have the same personality. However, we do not know exactly how memories are physically "stored" in human brains. It is possible, perhaps even likely, that the storing of memories permanently changes the neurobiology of the person doing the remembering. Even if this memory is forgotten, the makeup of the neuron pathways storing it would be indelibly marked. So this amnesiac, while his behaviors and memories may be the same as the other non-changed person, no longer has the same personality.

Also part of the definitions I have looked up is an emotional aspect. If a person were to suddenly develop an emotional disorder (such as a neurobiologically caused depression, as opposed to one caused by stress or trauma), he or she would no longer have the same personality. The memories of this person would be the same as before (offset by a bit of time), but the person could, in principle, think and act differently.

The characterization of personality as an aggregate of memories is simplistic. The memories a person holds can be an indicator of sources of personality traits, but it's more likely that the memory and the trait come from the same source. Also, there could be other traits exhibited by a person that have nothing to do with memories, but lie in a more physical source.

I suppose the argument comes down to nature vs. nurture. So unless you can resolve that debate, Callandor, please do not try to define something as complex as personality so narrowly.

52

Callandor: 2005-10-05

**True, he was dead, but where do all of his memories go? They still exist, or else Rand couldn't access them. Taking your initial jar model, the barrier between past lives is like the lid, but there must be a barrier between every life, or Rand would get memories from all of them once his barrier weakened.**

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. I only refered to the single jar analogy for simplistic reasons.

**The way I saw barriers was as a bunch of bubbles around the memories of past lives AND those of the present life. If one barrier weakens, those memories are allowed, depending on the severity of weakness, into the space between all the barriers. See where I'm going? Rand's barrier has to be weakened for him to obtain any past memories, but the barrier on those memories also has to be weakened. At least, that's the way I see it.**

1. I see what you mean, except if that was the case, the taint would be effecting all the barriers at once equally, since I'm assuming Rand is the "inside" area. Yet, we only have memories from Lews Therin.

2. The entire "he's dead" point, was to say that Lews Therin died -- he wasn't drawing on the taint anymore, so his barrier wouldn't continue to corrode.

**Why would LTT appear fully formed?**

Because there is a full personality in Rand's head, if Lews Therin is real.

**You say that LTT in Rand's head is just a rationalisation of his memories? I ask you, what is a person but the sum (and interactions that that entails) of his experiences?**

Yes, exactly. The sum of his memories. For there to be a completely real personality of Lews Therin in Rand's head, Rand would have to have all of Lews Therin's memories. He doesn't.

**Some of his memories bring some of his personality.**

There isn't a part and parsaling of this. Either there's an entire personality there, or there's not. Jordan didn't say Rand has one and a half personalities -- there are two in his head.

Either he's got Lews Therin's entire personality in his head (meaning he has all his memories again), or he's recieved a few memories from Lews Therin, and created the personality on his own off the basis of those real memories.

**Rand is touching LTT's memories, give me that much. Min describes them as two men. So, perhaps two distinct, real personalities?**

1. The viewing is vague, and could refer to the third man as well.

2. Two distinct personalities -- yes. Two real ones? Not a chance. Rand views Lews Therin as real, but he isn't.

**If two incomplete barriers interacted, wouldn't merging allow the strongest use of barrier for both things contained?**

What two weakened barriers though? And how would they "interact"?

**Are you sure he said it? Do you think you'd be able to find it?

Also, I don't see how it seems planned... It seems rather spontaneous to me, but maybe i'm just overlooking some obvious fact.**

Who are you refering to Astra-al?

**Im way too lazy to read 20 pages but anyhoooo...**

Well, then don't reply ;)

**Callandor, how do you explain Briggite? She has had no contact with saidin and yet the "barrier" between her memories seems to be nonexistant. She cant remember them all true, but that seems to be more a function of memory and lack of storage then anything else..**

Birgitte in the real world? Or Birgitte in tel'aran'rhiod?

In the real world, she's a very unique situation, where I would say is only truely comparable to the Forsaken. My best explanation would be that before a person is reborn into the world naturally, they get a barrier placed over their past life so that they can make a new personality when reborn. Birgitte never had this step, the same way that the Forsaken who were reborn never had this step. The barrier wasn't put into place, so the memories were still there for her use as her own.

Why she doesn't remember everything, might simply be a storage problem, as you've said, or it could be something else.

If you meant by in tel'aran'rhiod, then the answer is simple I say: she's dead and she's a Hero of the Horn, and they all can just do this ;)

**Noone has all of their memories and entire past and everyone has their own personality. Rand doesnt remember his infancy yet it affected him.**

Hows that? Rand doesn't remember being born on Dragonmount, but it didn't effect him growing up. It only effected him after he learned about it again.

But Rand remembers Kari al'Thor's hands, and that does effect him.

**I've looked up several definitions of personality and seen no such thing.**

Look harder. Dictionary.com:

**Personality

1. The quality or condition of being a person.

2. The totality of qualities and traits, as of character or behavior, that are peculiar to a specific person.

3. The pattern of collective character, behavioral, temperamental, emotional, and mental traits of a person: Though their personalities differed, they got along as friends.

4. Distinctive qualities of a person, especially those distinguishing personal characteristics that make one socially appealing: won the election more on personality than on capability. See Synonyms at disposition.

5.

a. A person as the embodiment of distinctive traits of mind and behavior.

b. A person of prominence or notoriety: television personalities.

6. An offensively personal remark. Often used in the plural: Let's not engage in personalities.

7. The distinctive characteristics of a place or situation: furnishings that give a room personality.**

Not to mention you quoted the key part yourself:

**From Merriam-Webster Online: "3 : the complex of characteristics that distinguishes an individual or a nation or group; especially : the totality of an individual's behavioral and emotional characteristics".**

(I won't point out that you're using the 3rd definition as well ;)).

**However, we do not know exactly how memories are physically "stored" in human brains. It is possible, perhaps even likely, that the storing of memories permanently changes the neurobiology of the person doing the remembering. Even if this memory is forgotten, the makeup of the neuron pathways storing it would be indelibly marked. So this amnesiac, while his behaviors and memories may be the same as the other non-changed person, no longer has the same personality.**

Their behaviors and memories would be the same.... They would have the same personality. They would be physically different on a neurological level due to the structuring (which, is quite irrelevant anyway), but their personalities wouldn't be.

**I suppose the argument comes down to nature vs. nurture. So unless you can resolve that debate, Callandor, please do not try to define something as complex as personality so narrowly.**

I'm using the specific defintions of the dictionary, as well as the one you gave.

53

Lauric: 2005-10-06

****Why is it that nobody else randomly has these memories or bursts out with the Old Tongue? Especially, since they share the same actual blood, Bode Cauthon.**

Probably due to blood ties. Think of how they determine who becomes Queen in Andor, by the number of bloodlines. The other confirmed examples of the old blood (Perrin and Egwene, and Nynaeve if you wish), just simply might not have as many blood ties directly to the the Old Blood as Mat does. It's really unknown except to say that in Mat the Old Blood seems to be the stronger than anyone else.**

Ok, but that still doesn't explain why Bode doesn't, or Abell for that matter.

54

Ruthie: 2005-10-07

I think it's great. However, I don't necessarily agree that the taint caused the barrier degradation. I think you are right on with the effects that it has on Rand, but I think that it is all due to him channeling with Callandor. When Rand is fighting the Seachean in Altara, Cadsuane mentions how Callandor is unprotected, unlike all other Sa'angreal, and that this magnifies the effects of the taint on the user unless channeling while linked with a woman who is melding the flows. Therefore, I believe due to the timing of the beginning appearances of LTT, that he is present due to Rand's use of Callandor. Not due to the amount of saidin in total that he's channeled, but due to his frequent use of Callandor without a woman to protect him. Just wanted to see what you thought of this...sorry I don't have the exact quote!! But don't get me wrong, I think that this theory rocks and I love that you put it all together so beautifully!!

55

Callandor: 2005-10-08

**Ok, but that still doesn't explain why Bode doesn't, or Abell for that matter.**

1. For Bode, it could be because the old blood isn't as strong in women as it is in men. They could just be considered "carriers" and have weaker effects of the old blood (such as Egwene "almost" understanding the Old Tongue).

2. Abell is Mat's father. Mat is Abell's son. Mat could have a larger combination of the old blood due to being offspring from Abell and Natti (Mat's mother of course).

Of course, it's also perfectly possible that Abell and Bode do have the same qualities as Mat, just haven't expressed them -- especially since RJ describes what the Two Rivers people do really only happens under stress:

**He didn't give any conclusive answer to the Two Rivers channeling paradox, but he noted that many strange occurances come from there, like inherent ability to speak the Old Tongue under stress.**

So, really, it's just up in the air if they truely do or do not have the old blood -- but that really doesn't effect the differences between Mat and Egwene for example ;)

**Not due to the amount of saidin in total that he's channeled, but due to his frequent use of Callandor without a woman to protect him.**

He's done it three times, and only once does his situation truely change after a usage. If Callandor alone were the source of Lews Therin, why aren't we seeing more changes or developments in Lews Therin after Rand saves the Stone in The Shadow Rising? We see the lightning weave, yes, but is that due to his prior usage, or current usage? Even so, why don't we see more changes after Rand uses Callandor against the Seanchan? What accounts for Lews Therin's growth and increase in presense from the beginning of The Fires of Heaven until A Crown of Swords or even half of The Path of Daggers?

56

Anubis: 2005-10-09

**Hows that? Rand doesn't remember being born on Dragonmount, but it didn't effect him growing up. It only effected him after he learned about it again. **

Callandor what are you talking about? How Rand was raised had huge effects on his personality, even things he no longer remembers.

57

Callandor: 2005-10-10

**Callandor what are you talking about? How Rand was raised had huge effects on his personality, even things he no longer remembers.**

No, you're saying that things Rand doesn't remember at all have effected him, such as being born at Dragonmount. This, is clearly false, since it would defeat the entire purpose of book 1 and most of book 2 when Rand is completely ignorant of who he truely his. He would remember, if it effected him.

Since it obviously didn't --> how hard is it to see that he obviously doesn't remember what happened?

It's the same reason Mat isn't the complete paranoid lunatic that he basically was under the Shadar Logoth dagger. He doesn't remember most of that, and it doesn't effect him. It's not like getting a cut and forgetting that it happened and having to look at everyday wondering where that came from. It's a complete blank slate when people forget their memories -- it doesn't effect them.

58

Ieyasu: 2006-06-01

good theory. i agree with most of it.

im curious what your thoughts are after KOD where this construct has now siezed the power from rand?

does this change anything in your opinion?

59

Farzon: 2006-06-01

Wow, what a theory. I don't have the expertise to comment on all the parts, but it feels to me like Lews Therin is real and not a construct. However, if you mean that the memories are real and were acquired due to the degradation of the barrier between this life and the past, while the personality of LTT is a figment of his imagination/stress/saidin induced madness, then sure, I think I can agree with that. It still feels up in the air however, since we have no way of confirming whether the non-memory personality parts of LTT is real or not. The only ones around who could confirm it are the Forsaken, and they don't seem that chatty. The few timese that Rand let something of LTT's memories slip around the Forsaken, I think (and only think, since I can't remember exactly) they were expressed as Rand expressing his own memories. We never see something like Lanfear going "Hmm, Rand is thumbing his ear the way LTT used to" or anything that can be attributed to personality instead of memories.

I would like to note that there doesn't to be any real issues with talking to the dead for our main characters though. Rand has LTT, Mat has memories from Finnland, and Perrin has Hopper. They're all fundamentally different, but all are essentially past experiences to help out the three main tavern. And as Rand seems to be the strongest tavern since...himself, who's to say that the Pattern isn't just giving him this uber unlikely thing of tapping into the past in order to fulfill his tavern destiny and get the Pattern back on track. Of course, since tavern effects like to have balance, this would suggest that there's going to be some major soul-related thing happening at the end, which there are already plenty of theories about.

LTT could also be explained as real in some fashion by the degradation of reality that the world is finally seeing. People are seeing ghosts, and we probably haven't seen the last of how "intimate" the interaction can be. The barrier degradation spoken of doesn't have to be from saidin, it could be Last Battle degradation.

60

Callandor: 2006-06-02

**does this change anything in your opinion?**

Nothing beyond that I was wrong to say Rand would realize Lews Therin was a construct. But it only emphasizes that Lews Therin is indeed a construct since he cannot take physical control of Rand at all. Lews Therin can grasp saidin, however, because it's really Rand holding saidin (since Lews Therin deep down is still Rand). Lews Therin can't take over Rand's body, since Rand cannot take over his own body from himself (hence why Lews Therin can't take the source from Rand, and vice versa).

61

Callandor: 2006-06-04

**Wow, what a theory. I don't have the expertise to comment on all the parts, but it feels to me like Lews Therin is real and not a construct. However, if you mean that the memories are real and were acquired due to the degradation of the barrier between this life and the past, while the personality of LTT is a figment of his imagination/stress/saidin induced madness, then sure, I think I can agree with that. It still feels up in the air however, since we have no way of confirming whether the non-memory personality parts of LTT is real or not.**

Yes, I mean that the memories are real, and come from Lews Therin's actual lived life from the Age of Legends. In a normal situation, these would be inaccessable, because there is a barrier placed between past and present lives whenever a soul is reborn. In Rand's case, the barrier has degraded enough to allow the memories to come over into Rand's mind due to the taint.

These memories form the basis of what was eventually created to be "Lews Therin" that is in Rand's head. The personality that Rand talks to in his mind is a construct; the basis for that construct, the memories, are real.

**I would like to note that there doesn't to be any real issues with talking to the dead for our main characters though. Rand has LTT, Mat has memories from Finnland, and Perrin has Hopper. They're all fundamentally different, but all are essentially past experiences to help out the three main tavern.**

But it's those differences that is a big problem. Mat has memories from lots of previous men's lives, yes, but he doesn't "talk" to the memories, and hasn't formed hundreds of personalities in his head. Perrin talks to Hopper, but only in tel'aran'rhiod due to the nature of the place. Same thing with Nynaeve, Elayne, and Perrin talking to Birgitte in tel'aran'rhiod prior to being forced back into the real world: it's just a way of tel'aran'rhiod.

Rand's case is a very rare instance, and shouldn't naturally happen (though in fairness, it seems that Mat's case isn't too common either).

**And as Rand seems to be the strongest tavern since...himself, who's to say that the Pattern isn't just giving him this uber unlikely thing of tapping into the past in order to fulfill his tavern destiny and get the Pattern back on track.**

No one. I do not say that this isn't cause because the Wheel/Pattern finds it necessary for Rand to have these memories -- in fact I'm a proponent of that view (in fact I'd take it so far as to say that the Wheel/Pattern allowed the circumstances to be made so saidin is tainted expressly for it's effect on Rand, as well as a defining feature of the 3rd Age).

What this is for is explaining how the Wheel/Pattern is doing this. It's not just "Well, it's the Wheel, and Rand's ta'veren, so anything can happen at all." Doesn't fly with me. There is a system at work, and there is a completely logical explanation for why this is happening to Rand and how it is happening -- this is it. The same way it can be the simple system of gravity effecting Mat tripping in a hole, so as to not be tackled and killed by the gholam, as a ta'veren effect -- this can be the same thing for Rand. This theor is just detailing the system.

**LTT could also be explained as real in some fashion by the degradation of reality that the world is finally seeing. People are seeing ghosts, and we probably haven't seen the last of how "intimate" the interaction can be. The barrier degradation spoken of doesn't have to be from saidin, it could be Last Battle degradation.**

Why isn't it happening to everyone, everwhere then?

We've seen on two instances the Dark One effect the weather -- winter, then extreme summer. Now we see him effect insects and food spoilage. As well, we see him effect the rooms and their changing. As well we are seeing his work with the ghosts, towns apparently dissolving into the ground. Not to mention bubbles of evil. Each of these we have seen in several instances repeated more than once. Yet, Rand seems to be the only one experiencing anything of this nature now. If it was just general degradation of the world, it should be seen in several instances, not just one.

That's not to say it doesn't play on the same continuing theme of degradation in the world. It does that quite obviously. It's just not the same system at work.

62

Ieyasu: 2006-06-05

Farzon:

**However, if you mean that the memories are real and were acquired due to the degradation of the barrier between this life and the past, while the personality of LTT is a figment of his imagination/stress/saidin induced madness, then sure, I think I can agree with that.**

that is how im reading this theory, that the memories are real yet the personality of LTT is made up by rand (if he has the memories, then constructed personality could very well be nearly identical to the actual LTT, based on the memories he has available, neh?)

**It still feels up in the air however, since we have no way of confirming whether the non-memory personality parts of LTT is real or not. The only ones around who could confirm it are the Forsaken, and they don't seem that chatty. The few timese that Rand let something of LTT's memories slip around the Forsaken, I think (and only think, since I can't remember exactly) they were expressed as Rand expressing his own memories. We never see something like Lanfear going "Hmm, Rand is thumbing his ear the way LTT used to" or anything that can be attributed to personality instead of memories.**

i dont have the quotes handy, could someone find them?

-but there are several times in which rand made personal comments to lanfear that derived from LTT memories and she DID show a reaction. such as when he said her real name, something to the effect of 'i never loved you meirin, you loved power', i believe she questioned him something to the extend of 'lews? is that you?' (paraphrased from memory)

there is also the time in which rand made a comment from the AOL time perdiod (and LTT memory) infront of asmodean. to the effect of being burried in the can-brear, and asmodean expressed shock and eye widening. (paraphrased from memory)

also i believe there is time when either ishy was conversing with rand in a dream or a couple of the forsaken were having a meeting in which they are discussing rand/LTT and said something about 'how much is the shepard and how much is LTT?' (paraphrased from memory)

none of these things do anything to suggest the personality rand constructed is like the real LTT actually was, but it does suggest a validity to the reality of the memories themselves. and if the memories are real (am i wrong to believe the validity as to the memories being real and accurate is an obvious fact?), why shouldnt rand use aspects of the said memories (which ARE real) in his creation of the personality construct?

seems to me is it likely that this 'constructed personality out of real memories' is merely rands way of dealing with having memories of another life time (regardless of whether or not the taint has any degregation on the barrier between souls-- tho i believe callandor has it the nail on the head here)

but now that this 'constructed personality out of real memories' has succeeded in taking saidin from rand, how does this effect this theory? would a constructed-personality be able to seize saidin? is this proof that the LTT personality is real? is it MPS? creating a voice that is mental is one thing, but a personality capable of seizing control of power seems to suggest he might be real... but LTT didnt have full control of rand.. he only controlled the power, rand still had physical control of his body. so is LTT real? im still unsure how this incident should be applied.

what do you think callandor?

how does the fact that the personality siezed the power AWAY from rand and held it outside of his control effect your theory?

is it multiple personality disorder? (even tho the personality couldnt control rand's physical body) does a rand-constructed personality have the ability to actually sieze the power?

personally i think this proves LTT *IS* real now. which is not to say that the personality is *ACTUALLY* LTT, but that it is MORE THAN just a voice.

i still think it is a construction, but one that has (obviously) grown into a REAL entity. regardless of where the personality came from, he is DEFINATELY **more** than just a voice.

its one thing to 'wrestle' for control, and always win (until now) but how do you resolve this incident with your theory callander?

63

JakOShadows: 2006-06-05

***LTT could also be explained as real in some fashion by the degradation of reality that the world is finally seeing. People are seeing ghosts, and we probably haven't seen the last of how "intimate" the interaction can be. The barrier degradation spoken of doesn't have to be from saidin, it could be Last Battle degradation. ***

I don't think the timeline quite matches up for this explanation. Because Rand first starts getting the memories in tSR, and we don't see the ghosts appear until CoT. Even with LTT's memories and Rand being strongly connected, we haven't seen the same occurrence with to this degree in any of the books after that. Mat had that one memory of Manetheran, but that could be connected to the dagger and that he is King Aemon reborn supposedly. And that happens earlier than with Rand; so that implies that the connection is stronger there than with Rand. As can be seen from the character development, it doesn't see like it works that way. So I think there isn't enough proper correlation to make this a viable theory.

64

Ieyasu: 2006-06-06

Upon reviewing KOD, I came across two things that kind of make me 180 on the LTT construct aspect of this theory. I do believe the concept of barrier degradation being the cause of the appearance of LTT, but these two quotes may shed some light on whether or not LTT is a construct or real:

**TITLE: Knife of Dreams, CHAPTER: 18 - News for the Dragon pg 388

"A blue-eyed man with a square chin, perhaps a few years older than himself. Or rather, he saw it clearly for the first time in a long while. It was the face of the stranger who had saved his life in Shadar Logoth when he fought Sammael. Worse. . . . He was aware of me, Lews Therin said. He sounded sane for a change. Sometimes he did, but the madness always returned eventually. How can a face appearing in my mind be aware of me? If you don't know, how do you expect me to? Rand thought. But I was aware of him, as well. It had been a strange sensation, as if he were . . touching . . . the other man somehow. Only not physically. A residue hung on. It seemed he only had to move a hair's breadth, in any direction. to touch him again. I think he saw my face, too. Talking to a voice in his head no longer seemed peculiar. In truth, it had not for quite a long time. And now . . ? Now, he could see Mat and Perrin by thinking of them or hearing their names, and he had this other face coming to him unbidden. More than a face, apparently. What was holding conversations inside his own skull alongside that? But the man had been aware, and Rand of him. When our streams of balefire touched in Shadar Logoth, it must have created some sort of link between us. I can't think of any other explanation. That was the only time we ever met. He was using their so-called True Power. It had to be that. I felt nothing, saw nothing except his stream of balefire. Having bits of knowledge seem his when he knew they came from Lews Therin no longer seemed odd, either."

This shows LTT is aware of Moridin and vice verse. What is odd is how exactly is Moridin aware of a mental voice inside Rand’s head? If LTT were a construct, how could Moridin be aware of him? Does this balefire link allow Moridin to read Rand’s thoughts? How come Rand hasn’t displayed any such ability in the reverse direction? I’d like to also provide this quote and try to link them both:

**KOD chapter 27 A Plain Wooden Box pg 593

“Semirhage saved him the effort of thinking up a lie. “He’s insane,” she said coolly. Standing there stiff as a statue, Min’s knife hilt still sticking out her collar bone and the front of her black dress glistening with blood, she might have been a queen on her throne. “Graendal could explain it better than I. madness was her specialty. I will try, however. You know of people who hear voices in their heads? Sometimes, very rarely, the voices they hear are the voices of past lives. Lanfear claimed he knew things from our own Age, things only Lews Therin Telamon could know. Clearly, he is hearing Lews Therin’s voice. It makes no difference that his voice is real however. In fact, that makes his situation worse. Even Graendal usually failed to achieve reintegration with someone who heard a real voice. I understand the descent into terminal madness can be...abrupt.” her lips curves in a smile that never touched her dark eyes.”**

These are interesting. On the second, considering the source, it is of course suspect. She could be lying, and attempting to spread chaos, sowing dissention among Rand’s inner circle, but since we have Rand’s POV we KNOW he hears a LTT voice, she could be telling the truth. Other than Cadsuane, we haven’t heard much about tainted men hearing voices. Semirhage might suspect, and have deduced from Lanfear’s comments, or even been told by Moridin, being as he is aware of both Rand, and LTT via the balefire link. Since it shows that LTT is aware of Moridin and vice verse, he could have informed Semirhage about the presence of LTT, but how come it’s not working in reverse though? Seems Moridin is getting the better end of the information flow established by the balefire link. Even though Rand is aware of Moridin, he doesn’t know what he is thinking. How is it that Moridin is aware of LTT? Can he also sense any of Rand’s 4 bonds with the girls? Just how much info is Moridin getting out of this link? Is Semirhage telling the truth? Is there ample reason to believe Moridin would sense LTT and be aware of him if he was just a construct of Rand’s mind, a mental voice?

I'm thinking in light of recent developments, LTT might be real…

65

Callandor: 2006-06-06

**but now that this 'constructed personality out of real memories' has succeeded in taking saidin from rand, how does this effect this theory? would a constructed-personality be able to seize saidin? is this proof that the LTT personality is real? is it MPS?**

No, it's not multiple personality syndrom -- it's only parts of it and many other abnormal mental conditions that Jordan has taken for his own use (IE: don't count too much on the real world for comparisons here, they're only for analogies and even those are weak).

Again, no Lews Therin taking control of saidin doesn't entail that he is real -- because if this theory is true, Lews Therin isn't doing anything really. What is truly happening is Rand is channeling saidin, because deep down the construct of Lews Therin is truly Rand.

**personally i think this proves LTT *IS* real now. which is not to say that the personality is *ACTUALLY* LTT, but that it is MORE THAN just a voice.**

Which is an inherent contradiction. If Lews Therin is real, it's Lews Therin's personality. If you're saying Lews Therin came out of Rand's mind due to the memories, he is a construct. Lews Therin cannot both be the real Lews Therin's personality, as well as a construct.

**i still think it is a construction, but one that has (obviously) grown into a REAL entity. regardless of where the personality came from, he is DEFINATELY **more** than just a voice.**

We know Lews Therin is more than a voice; Jordan has told us explicitly Rand is one soul with two personalities.

But being a personality does not make Lews Therin real. If he is nothing more than a product of Rand's mind due to the memories, stress, and other factors, he is a construct and nothing more. He's not real.

**Mat had that one memory of Manetheran, but that could be connected to the dagger and that he is King Aemon reborn supposedly.**

Actually, I believe Mat would be Aemon's general if he is the person of the memory reborn, not Aemon himself.

66

Callandor: 2006-06-07

**This shows LTT is aware of Moridin and vice verse. What is odd is how exactly is Moridin aware of a mental voice inside Rand’s head? If LTT were a construct, how could Moridin be aware of him?**

The same thing with how Lews Therin can channel saidin: deep down, Lews Therin is truly Rand. Rand is, in a sense, talking to himself about what Rand is experiencing regarding the Moridin connection.

So, in the example, it wouldn't be that Moridin was aware of Lews Therin -- Moridin was aware of Rand, Rand recognized this, and he voiced this concern through Lews Therin to himself.

67

Khazhul: 2006-06-08

**This shows LTT is aware of Moridin and vice verse. What is odd is how exactly is Moridin aware of a mental voice inside Rand’s head? If LTT were a construct, how could Moridin be aware of him? Does this balefire link allow Moridin to read Rand’s thoughts? How come Rand hasn’t displayed any such ability in the reverse direction?**

Nothing in the quote you provided shows that Moridin is aware of LTT in particular. Since LTT and Rand are the same, of course LTT is going to think of his self as me but that encompasses Rand and LTT. Whenever something happens to Rand, LTT views it as happening to him. If you look at it this way, Callandors theory still holds true and your extra questions are answered.