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2012-04-30: I had the great pleasure of speaking with Harriet McDougal Rigney about her life. She's an amazing talent and person and it will take you less than an hour to agree.
2012-04-24: Some thoughts I had during JordanCon4 and the upcoming conclusion of "The Wheel of Time."
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Last ten comments at Theoryland.
The Bore is in Tel’aran’rhiodIf DO was able to alter reality with power...by Amaentes
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The Real SlayerI was just thinking that since the Finns l...by jimbop79
Verin Compelled AlannaThis was alluded to early on, but let me s...by jimbop79
When the Dark One winsAlthough the books are over here is what m...by pjrobertson
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Last ten theories at Theoryland.
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Breaking the Sealsby Kamaul
Let me die forever!by Kamaul
Hmm...immunity to the True Power. I guess that is a possibility. The gholam didn't seem to be worried about the itch from noticing the residue of True Power, while he was very concerned about Mat's medallion. Okay, so here is a question. Can a gholam kill Shaidar Haran?
Shaidar Haran has no particular invulnerabilities. A Gholam is a greater Shadowspawn that a myrrdraal, so the fear-power of Shaidar Haran could be negated. A Thakan'dar wrought blade would damage the gholam no more than any other weapon. The only seeming advantages Shaidar Haran has over a gholam are 1. True Power, 2. He probably IS the Great Lord's embodiment.
I say the gholam is immune to True Power so scratch #1.
The gholam is constrained by whoever ordered it and must follow those orders, so Dark One Avatar or not, if the gholam has been told to tear Shaidar Haran in half, he'll try do it.
Oops. The third advantage Shaidar Haran has is really long legs, so he can run to a shadowy place and vanish quick.
It's great being immune to the True Power!
It would be safe to say that the gholam, at the very last, did not fear the True Power. As to whether one could kill Shaidar Haran, If Shaidar Haran was destroyed the Dark one would likely be able to find another Fade to manifest his powers within. Maybe Shaidar Haran's body could be "killed", but not the essence that is given by the Dark One.
Could it be that the gholam was made from the True Power? Maybe something about the essence, for lack of a better word, of Mat's dagger makes it react strangely. I believe Aginor was the one to invent gholams, but who created them?
I believe that the medallion and the gholam where made in a similar way, both using the same comcept. i would be willing to bet that each negates the one power in the same way, and that the medallion and the gholam when together negate eachothers power temporarily. the medallion just feels like silver and the gholam gets crispified. or maybe it is not negated, but the medalion negates the gholams power negating causing a backlash of energy.
also killing a gholam would be a simple matter of having egwene encase it in iron and then turning that into cuelendar. at the very least it aint getting out, and would starve and die.
I like this idea.
The Gholam DOES have a weakness.
We all know it needs blood to sustain itself, denying it this - encasing it in cuendillar (sp?) - could actually destroy the thing.
Perhaps Padan Fain could also destroy the Gholam with one of his creations? might have been said before.
Good concept, but one small problem as i see it. the gholam was in a stasis box for 3000 years without any fresh blood to feed on. would that not have killed it, even if it was being kept in stasis? time is passing, and its metabolism must be working at some pace, if not its regular speed. so would this not have already killed it? maybe fresh blood only keeps its power negating ability strong, or something along those lines.
Here's a good question. How do the Chosen control the gholam? If it's immune to the TP, and it also likes to kill channelers of the OP, then why doesn't it just rip their bodies in half and drink their blood? I'm not too clear on this, but I think the gholam is not a being, but a ter'angreal. It acts like Mat's medallion, and we all know that when you combine 2 ter'angreal with similar functions, you get that bad stuff, like what happened when Egwene's TAR ter'angreal stone ring thing just got NEAR the Accepted testing rings. They didn't even touch, and there was trouble. Also, there is the fact that the gholam, probably 2 of them that we know of, have survived being locked in stasis boxes. I'm not so sure that any living being could survive a stasis box: otherwise, people would have just put themselves in there to wake up when things were back to normal or to help LTT in Tarmon Gaidon. We also know that the only other things in the stasis boxes found weren't living. Sammael complained about not having souls for his little chess-like game to play with. To me, that seems like a soul wouldn't survive in a stasis box.
As for beating the gholam, Mat's medallion is the definite answer. However, perhaps if you strike it with any ter'angreal that use the power without having to channel into them, or if you use the TP to destroy it. And if you think about encasing it in cuendillar, that's all well and good, EXCEPT for the logistics of it. First, you've gotta catch it. It can slip through fingers and is stronger than any man. It can't be contained with the power, and can't be hurt with weapons. Second, you've got to get it into the box. That means the box must be able to open. That means that it can't be all one piece, so it would have to be made cuendillar piecemeal. That means there is an opening through which it could slip, even if it was cuendillar. So the box idea is out.
It would be interesting to find out how to kill a gholam. I'm betting that Mat has to get rough with it, slap it around a bit, and use the medallion to make it explode or just kill it or something. But I do believe that the gholam is actually a ter'angreal.
Speaking on the issue of Egwene being able to trap the Gholam. I don't believe she's fast enough to do it. This is a creature who can slip thru a crack in a few seconds. By the time Egwene started to trap it it would just slip away. All it needs is a seconds time to get away
Several points to address/defend (thanks for your posts!)
1. I don't remember seeing anywhere that Aginor was responsible for creating the Gholam. Lots of other shadowspawn, yes. Gholam, no. But even without proof, he would still be the top candidate.
2. A stasis box is likely some kind of vacuole. A second passed for the gholam, three millenia passed for the world. It was thus not deprived of blood for any amount of time.
3. Wrapping a gholam in cuendillar has a negligible chance of success, as pointed out by several posters above.
4. If a shield or wall made with the One Power (or True Power!) dissipates when it touches the gholam, then a gholam could walk through the razor-edge of a Gateway fearlessly. The Gateway would dissipate at its touch. This may mean that Gholams can't make use of traditional means of Travelling, but nor can they be dropped over a volcano, whose lava would not harm it anyways.
5. Fain's powers are not derived from the One Power, and stand the best chance of being that elusive something that can harm it, other than Mat's medallion.
6. Since Mat's medallion came from the Eelfinn, I'm guessing they didn't make it with the True Power, which is reserved for the Chosen. And since Mat's medallion has the same properties as a Gholam, I extrapolate that the Gholam wasn't made with the True Power either. I also suspect that two gholams touching each other will not spontaneously combust, despite having identical properties to each other and the medallion.
7. Obviously Mat's medallion is the key to defeating the gholam, since it's the ONLY thing to ever hurt it, including the True Power!
In conclusion, the gholam is immune to the True Power.
However, as for the gateway argument, that is where you are wrong. Mat can pass through a gateway without it collapsing, so I can't see why a gholam couldn't. Of course, that's not to say a gholam WOULD do that, but I believe only weaves directed AT the gholam are useless. However, like Mat, you could pick up a pitchfork and shish-kebab it I s'pose. But I believe that, although the OP is used to open and hold a gateway, and gateways wouldn't exist without using the OP, that the gateway itself becomes a physical element. With saidin, you fold the pattern and rip a hole, with saidar, you create a halfway place that has similarities and that creates a bridge (or something along those lines.) However, the fact remains that once the gateway is created or is opening or closing, it is a hole between to different places. It has an edge finer than a razor because, in fact, that edge doesn't exist. It's an exercise in logic with a bit of physics, but basically if you get cut by a gateway, you're not really being cut. Your body is already separated in two different places. The closing of the gateway just cuts the thread that was holding together those places, so that if you have the bad luck to be caught in it, then the part of your body in one place detaches (sp?) itself from the part in the other place. Kinda interesting, that when you move through a gateway, you're cutting up your body, and reattaching (sp?) it on the other side.
Now, there is no evidence about what made Mat's medallion, however, there is the fact that the Aelfinn don't use the TP, and the Eelfinn probably don't either (can't be too sure about somebody wearing human skin as leather, I think). But still, that's not to say that the gholam can't be hurt by the TP. It's already been demonstrated that the TP is very different in characteristics from the OP, while it's usage is almost identical. But it appears to be the source that matters with the sensing, and the use that matters with the effects, so possibly the gholam can't be hurt by the TP. On the other hand, how the hell do you control the gholam? What sets the forsaken apart from other channelers when a gholam could rip it apart just as easily if the TP didn't work on it?
I still vote for the gholam being a ter'angreal and not a creature.
Mats medallion comes from the AOL RJ said so. And gholams seem to work like the medallion, direct effects dont hurt it at all. Weapons cant kill it. But if you dropped it in the bottom of the ocean after pushing it through a gateway, which should work!, or if you pushed it above a volcano and let if fall there are no references to it being able to climb or swim really good so if it didnt die it would be out of order still in my mind.
We have already seen in the book that shadowspawn will fight shadowspawn if ordered (The stone of Tear, samaels trollocs vs. Semirhage's trollocs). We are also fairly certain that there are 2 seperate gholams on the loose, one presumably, was under the control of Samael, the other's master is a mystery (i have always said that it was moridin). so my question is, what would happen if moridin commanded his gholam (speculation) to stop samaels gholam from completing its mission to kill mat and the ladies? would one gholam be able to stop another? or would it just end in a stalemate?
One argument AGAINST the gholam being a ter'angreal could be that Aginor did in fact create them. It's stated in the BWB that he was some kind of a biology professor and that he used those skills to manipulate creatures and organisms into e.g. Trollocs. It's nowhere stated he has any skill whatsoever with creating ter'angreal, though skill IS a requirement for that, as stated by Elayne ('many sisters just lacked the knack for it'). The reference about Aginor creating the Gholam is of another Forsaken thinking about Aginor, and thinking "only a madman could have created the gholam". I don't remember the specific location though, but it's there. Hence, I think the gholam is in fact a creature, and not a "T1000" or something like that. Thus the problem remains; how could anyone ever control a gholam? Is it like a 'genie in the bottle', meaning, whoever wakes it up, is its master?
Sidenote: Egwene would be fast enough to imprison a gholam with cuendillar since she turned the entire chain of the Tar Valon harbor into cuendillar instantaneously. That still leaves the problem of the box being of one peace though, not to say getting the gholam in the box in the first place :)
Since the gholam seem to work like Mat's medallion, you could just blast it with lightning. No guarantee that would kill it, but it would be worth a try.
I hate to be anal, but sending it to the bottom of an ocean wouldn't work either--the pressure would send water fountaining through the gateway and would keep anything from passing through. You could open a gateway underneath it and place the other end (horizontal) facing the ground; open a face-up gateway underneath the first, thus creating an infinite loop type of thing. Eventually, the gholam would have to be destroyed by the G-forces and constant acceleration, but even if it managed to survive it would be trapped. (I wonder: how long could a gateway be kept open???)
Actually, I'm hoping that no one finds a way to kill the gholam; they make the series more interesting.
In The World of RJ's WoT it says in the section under Aginor:
"Ishar Morrad was one of the first of the Forsaken to go over to the Shadow....he dedicated his energies to the creation of 'Shadowspawn,'...His first handiwork appeared in the form of Trollocs...Prolific Breeders, the Trollocs formed the bulk of the Shadow's armies by the end of the war. Soon these were followed by other creations, some of which still exist, such as the Draghkar, and some only known through historical records, such as the Gholam and the jumara." It doesn't actually say that the last few were specifically Aginor's, but I thought it was implied.
I think that if two gholams would try to kill each other they would both die, let's say you attack someone with a sword, you swing it with you right arm to chop his head off anf the other guys does the same at the same time, you would both loos your heads. i think that when gholams were created they weren't working together, they each had different missions, it is possible they hate each other as much as the Forsaken do. so if a gholam sees another coming his way, i think he will attack him, the other one will realise and attack him too : they both die.
Everyone is concerned with butting the gholam into a box with a lid. we know that egween is strong with earth. we have also seen that solid metal i.e. silver and gold can be melted down and used very quickly (Rand in the Stone demonstrating to elyane and egween). so why wouldnt egween just get a big lump of iron, wait till the gholam is close, surround the gholam with a sphere of iron and cuendillar-ize it? to me, this makes the most sence.
I'm back for more staunch defense of my theory!
1. The razor's edge of a Gateway.
I remember Mat can pass through a Gateway with the medallion. Let me rephrase my suggestion: If Mat's medallion or a gholam contacts the razor's edge of a Gateway, the part of it that holds the Gateway open using the One Power or True Power, then the Gateway will collapse. Any physical side effects such as slicing the Gholam's skin on the razor's edge, or damage from an unraveled Gateway are inconsequential, since the Gholam doesn't suffer from physical damage. Which we know because it has “never encountered anything that could harm it.”
2. Control of Gholam.
Aginor (thanks for confirming it WAS him) built them with a control mechanism. They are constrained by the orders that dictate who they must assassinate. “The women had been named, too, and for the time being, it was constrained. For its entire existence it had been compelled to obey one or another human, but its mind held the concept of not being constrained. It must follow the women. It wanted to follow.” Path of Daggers Ch. 2, Unweaving, p. 84-85
The Gholam was made for a function: assassination of channelers, and also with a mechanism for controlling that function. It's not done by the One Power, it's just built in. Part of it's operating system. The Gholam is powerless to disobey the orders it receives, as though bound by the Oath Rod, and potentially of little use for any other service. That's what freaks out the Chosen so much, that someone could order one of them killed, and they'd be powerless to stop the Gholam. Eventually it will find them and kill them.
3. Killing the T1000
I like the T1000 analogy, because that's what the gholam is: an unstoppable killer. So much so that the Chosen think “Oops, what have we made here?” All of the ideas on killing or delaying it are good, but won't work for one reason: No one will ever think to use them. When the Gholam strikes, it's from surprise, you don't know it's coming. What's the first thing Aes Sedai do to protect themselves? Shield of Air. Hold Gholam in Air. Throw Gholam with Air. Air is mightier than Fire. In their arrogance, in their surety that their channeling will work, they would die when faced with the Gholam, because their chosen defense is useless. And even Egwene would use Air on it. It's the first thing they're taught. Air is all-powerful, it wears down mountains. The only way Egwene wraps it in anything is if it's busy dismembering people in front of her and she has the time to wrap it in iron and Cuendillarize it, which she won't do, because how would she get it out after? Has any servant of Shadow ever not been kept around for questioning? Female channelers are dead if they meet it. Men won't fare better, burning it won't work, it's been tried before with no success. They are just as toast as the girls.
In summary: the Gholam is still immune to True Power and any other ideas for killing it, because none of those ideas can be applied unless a posse is actively hunting the Gholam down for the purpose of killing it. Most likely using the Gholam's target as bait, and having only one chance to get it right.
I would like to see how you could pull Egwene far away from being, no less the, IMPRISONED! by someone.
Yes. Egwene could turn it into cuendillar easily, she compares her skill to Bode and Leane. Says they are like letting a chunk of iron sink through milk while she would wouldnt even see the change before it was finished, or close to that.
And I didnt mean you would open a gateway at the bottom of the ocean or of a volcano. Open it above the water/volcano and let them fall. I still think a floating gateway would work, just that no one has had a need to use one before.
Yes, a floating gateway would work. Robert Jordan said in an interview that horizontal gateways are possible; also, when Sammael sends the shaido all over the place, the far end of the gateway one of the Shaido uses is suspended in midair. Sorry that I don't have quotes, but I don't have the books with me right now :)
Aright, if the Gholam is immune to the One Power and True Power then how were they created? If Aginor most likely created it? I don't understand how it could be created without the Power.
How is a Gholam made if it is immune to the True Power and the One Power?
Ter'angreal and other Power-made objects are designed to have certain properties. Dream ter'angreal replicate the inborn ability of a Dreamer, even if it's user cannot channel or enetr tel'aran'rhiod on their own. That feature was "copied" and given to an object, which became a ter'angreal.
The feature used for Gholam is the same seen in several Power battles, where opponents snip each others flows, or deflect attacks even without knowing what those attacks were. That characteristic or ability was "copied" and given to a man-shaped object called the Gholam. The Gholam was given several other fancy tricks as well, but using the Power to make it is possible because the "copied characteristics" don't begin working until the Gholam is complete. At which point it becomes impossible to uncomplete it. Which is a cause for concern. Oops!
It's possible there are quotes of Elayne's that contradict the details of what I'm suggesting about Gholam creation, but I think the idea can still stand: Gholams aren't immune to the One Power or the True Power until they are complete.
"Alright, if the Gholam is immune to the One Power and True Power then how were they created? If Aginor most likely created it?"
Aginor was the foremost Bio-Engineer or Gene-designer of the AOL. While the One Power would be useful for fine modifications in DNA it isn't the only way it could be done.
Aginor dumped some Human DNA, some Flatworm DNA, some Jelly-fish DNA, and a fw other mythical creture's DNA in his blender and seasoned it with a dash of the "Silver" Mat's medalion is made of. He poured the results into his Insta-womb (tm) gestation accelerator and when the timer dinged, the Gholams popped out.
(Just one, slightly silly, way of doing it without the One Power.)
I don't think the Gholams are controlled by anything other than programming. I think there is a "talisman," "Ring" or "Token" or something thatit's programmedto recognise as authorizing someone to give it orders and it must obey those orders until completed or canceled.
After Sammael's death, Grandel is seen wearing a plain gold ring, plain enough to cause notice among her other gauds and bangles. The Encyclopedia WoT list of objects identifies it as an angreal, but I do't recall anything from her viewpoint that confirms it is.
Could it be that her ring is NOT an angreal, but the Gholam's Control Ring?
I'm still iffy on weather they are immune, but I disagree more with the immunity to the steddings.
Steddings stop the sensing and channeling of the One Power in an UNKNOWN way. The Aes Sedai in the AOL didnt know how it worked. So how could the gholams get immunity?
With regard to Mat's medallion and the Gholam being incompatible: I have two possible explanations. One, is that the Aelfinn and Eelfinn work with (or read) the pattern directly. Finn's couldn't predict the future or grant wishes is they couldn't manipulate or see the patter itself. The gholam is immune to anything in Randland (the pattern) from hurting it. So it is probably the DO's pattern incarnate. Like matter and antimatter, the two don't mix. Also, I don't think the gholam can enter a stedding, like the OP and other creatures of the DO, I'm guessing that they simply can't enter the stedding.
Harold, I like the idea of a token/object identifying who the Gholam must obey.
Even so, Graendal's plain ring angreal is not it. "The angreal did not offer much, yet anyone who thought they knew her strength would find a shock." Path of Daggers HC, ch. 12, New Alliances, p. 262
I don't see why steddings would hurt the Gholam, unless you think the Gholam, and Mat's Medallion are mobile mini-steddings. I suppose it's possible. Thus, a channeler would be safe from a Gholam inside a stedding, who would not enter on fear of burning to a crisp. But I have to believe Age of Legends Aes Sedai would have tried this tactic, and that the Chosen would know of it had it worked.
Well thats wrong. The BWB says that shadowspawn can enter steddings but only in GREAT, GREAT!, need.
Even says that dedicated darkfriends will feel uncomfortable in steddings.
No, Graendal's POV in CoT tells us that it is merely an angreal. Not a strong one, but anyone who thought they knew her strength would be a bit surprised.
As for the gateway problem: The fact of the matter is that it wouldn't matter if the gholam's touching the edges collapsed the weaves holding it open. In fact, that would close the gateway. The point I was trying to make is that the gateway is a singularity. For non-math-non-science majors, that means that it is a point in space where the laws of physics come to an extreme that is hard to define conventionally, like a black hole. Hence the name, gateway. The point I was trying to make is that there really is no edge of a gateway. It is a hole in and of itself, connecting two parts of the pattern. The "edge" occurs when a piece of clothing or plant tries to exist in that gateway, and the part interfering with the gateway is not cut, but removed.
The thing is, if a gholam touched the "outside" of a gateway, the edge, as you describe it, it is most likely that he would collapse the weaves and close the gateway. Same true if he did it from the "inside edge" of the gateway. What I am saying is not that they should try to open a gateway where he is standing, but that they should try to drag him into one and then close it. Then the singularity disappears, the two places in the pattern are disconnected from each other again, and, like Rand's boot, the pieces of whatever went into the gateway stay where they are, but since the hole is close, they are no longer connected. In essence, the gholam would be cut in two, unless of course he can:
A) hold open a gateway until he can get out (highly unlikely considering he can't be hurt by the OP and possibly not by the TP).
B) he doesn't abide by the laws of physics as we know them, and would end up whole whether caught in a gateway or not (less unlikely).
Also, I don't believe that they had (or at least used) tactical nukes or the like in the War of the Power. There is a reason it was called the War of the Power, because the OP was the main weapon. The Forsaken used Trollocs as soldiers and Myrddraal as officers, with some other creations for special ops or whatnot. The Aes Sedai used soldiers with showings and shocklances and all that bidness. Plus, if there were tactical nukes used, then there is such a thing as Nuclear Winter, and the time afterwards that we've seen (a fairly good spread considering the source) showed no effects of radiation sicknesses, no giant craters caused by nuclear explosions, none of the other signs that a nuclear war had taken place. Otherwise, I think we'd have seen a whole lot more destruction, not to mention global cooling (not a drought), and people dropping from cancer with bulbous growths on their bodies more than people dropping from hunger. So maybe an ICBM could take a gholam. (Also, there is evidence that a hydrogen fusion bomb actually CREATES an unstable, miniature black hole that disintegrates because it has too much energy, but it exists for a few milliseconds. Just an interesting note, unless you believe a gholam could beat a black hole.)
Actually, I follow everything you said about modern physics Janstince, I guess there is just some disagreement about how Gateways work.
I see them as a point or slice in the pattern created with the one Power. That point or slice is widened so that the "frame" consists of a razor-thin line of the One Power which holds the Gateway open. The space inside the "frame" is untouched by the Power, thus Mat and Gholams can walk through the Gateway without disrupting it. When a Gateway is closed, the "frame" shrinks back to the original point or slash. A channeler can see an afterimage clearly enough to replicate the Gateway exactly, and that is my basis for saying that the "frame" is made of the One Power. How else would that weave remain visible unless One Power had occupied the space?
By this thinking, opening a Gateway atop a Gholam will fail, as the weave cannot expand to a full Gateway once it touches the Gholam. So it can't be sliced by an opening Gateway.
I hadn't considered a closing Gateway though. In the unlikely event that the Gholam stays still halfway through a Gateway that is made to collapse, I envision a scenario like in Path of Daggers when Elayne blows up the Gateway accidentally. The weaves would unravel/break by contacting the Gholam's body, and an explosion would blast both sides of the Gateway. The Gholam is immune to physical damage from the blast. But will it get split in two?
I guess since the Gateway is unraveled, the cutting is being done by the Pattern, and not by collapsing weaves of the Power. So it could be destroyed. More likely is if its center of gravity is on either side of the opening, that it will be propelled in that direction by the blast. More likely because tricking it this way seems unlikely, and I believe it has the reflexes and shapeshifting ability to escape the slicing edge of Pattern even if caught by surprise.
Finally, I'm sure Age of Legends Aes Sedai or Forsaken themselves tried it, to no avail. I refer again to the quote in the original theory at the top of this column that it had never encountered anything that could harm it.
Age of Legends Tactical Nukes is a joke, meant to emphasize that nothing can kill the Gholam, in particular the True Power, perceived by many as the ultimate weapon. Obvious exception is Mat's medallion.
Great Lord of the Dark 2003-03-19
The feature used for Gholam is the same seen in several Power battles, where opponents snip each others flows, or deflect attacks even without knowing what those attacks were. ... Gholams aren't immune to the One Power or the True Power until they are complete.
I don't know of any of Elayne's comments that would contradict this principle of immunity added as a last step. The probably wouldn't apply anyway, becuse the Gholam is organic and she hasn't yet encountered an Organic ter'angreal to study. She hasn't even had a chance to study Mat's Medalion.
I can think of several comments about the effect on weaves directed at the Gholam or Mat's Medalion that contradict your first association. One other, that I can remember a reference for, is Cyndane's first attack on Alivia in WH Ch 35 -- at the Cleansing. Her weave simply dissapated, in much the same way as the Gholam and medalion do. It was enough out of Cyndane's experience in One Power Combat to cause shock and comment, with no comparison of "like a gholam." I can't think of any other One Power combat scenes where the effects of cutting, blocking and deflecting an opponents weaves are described in the same terms as Power used on Mat or the Gholam.
I think there is some mention or hint that Aginor used characteristics of creatures fromthe Portal Stone Worlds in some of the Shadowspawn. With infinite worlds to choose from, finding a creature with natural immunity to the power would be possible -- adding tht characteristic through DNA would be easier than designing and creating an organic ter'angreal.
Great Lord of the Dark 2003-03-19
Harold, I like the idea of a token/object identifying who the Gholam must obey.
Even so, Graendal's plain ring angreal is not it. ...Path of Daggers, ch. 12, New Alliances.
Thank you for the reference. I agree there is no question of Graendal's ring being the token.
However, In reading that whole scene, I noticed that she grumbles about "a'Thor and his boys" getting most of what Sammael had accumulated!
Either Graendal has the control token and knows what it is, or ...
RAND has it and doesn't know what it is!
It probably isn't something he'd be interested in, because it doesn't use the One Power in any way, so he would dump it in a back corner and forget about it. Dashiva was involved in the Attack on Illian, I believe, so there's a chance that it was destroyed with him at Shadar Logoth.
Also, I don't believe that they had (or at least used) tactical nukes or the like in the War of the Power. There is a reason it was called the War of the Power, because the OP was the main weapon. ... Plus, if there were tactical nukes used, then there is such a thing as Nuclear Winter, and the time afterwards that we've seen (a fairly good spread considering the source) showed no effects of radiation sicknesses, no giant craters caused by nuclear explosions, none of the other signs that a nuclear war had taken place.
The War of the Power didn't NEED nuclear weapons, nor did the Madmen who caused the Breaking. The One Power makes a very suitable substitute for Nukes -- without a comparable degree of radiation. The Taint however does/did have some radiation-like effects -- most notable, the Wasting Disease.
The BWB description of the Breaking is very similar to classic SF predictions of a nuclear holocaust -- including a "nuclear winter" disruption of the global weather patterns. It lacked the world-ide overcst and drastic cooling of a literal "Nuclear Winter" but almost every other effect of the Breaking matches.
I have a thought as to what else may harm the gholam but I am not too sure of it's validity so go easy on me. Cadsuane also has a ter'angreal that negates channeling. When Mat's ter'angreal made contact with the gholam it was able to harm him. Cadsuane can still channel while wearing the ter'angreal so maybe her use of the power in some way blends with her ter'angreal and can affect it. As I said I'm not too sure of this theory's validity but you've got to admit it's worth thinking about.
On the subject of controlling a gholam...
The object/ter'angreal that gievs power over the gholam would explain a great deal of things. But if this is true, it raises some other questions. First, obviously, where is the object and who has it? Second, what does the gholam do when it doesn't have any more orders? Right now it's been ordered to kill Mat without anyone noticing it. Will it continue a relentless pursuit of him until it receives new orders, if it ever does?
Assuming that an object does NOT control the gholam, how would the gholam be controlled? If it followed the orders of one of the Chosen automatically, then couldn't a second Chosen merely trump those orders when he/she came in contact with the gholam? I'd say either Sammael or Moridin would be the only ones who could have sent the gholam after Mat. Sammael probably knew of his presence in Ebou Dar because of the Jaichim Carridin contact, and Moridin just seems to watch everything. For now, I'm going to say Sammael found an object to control the gholam inside the stasis box that held it. There's too many flaws in a chain of command without one.
heres a question fer ya...
If gholam are so invincible, then y are there only 1-2 of them instead of 6?
do they have some sort of expiration date... not a bad thing to put if you were making somthing that could kill you easily... though it could backfire ala final fantasy 9
Hmmm... Shaidar Haran vs. a Gholam. I'd have to give that one to Shaidar based on pure power level... Forsaken are edgy around gholams, but Shaidar makes them want to pee their pants.
Stasis box - temporal bubble. No time passes for anything in one. So you could store an Aes Sedai for a rainy day inside one, and she wouldn't notice any time passing.
Also, I think a nuke would kill a gholam. Why? Because, in the Age of Legends, they wouldn't have used nukes. They had balefire. And they quit one-shot-obliterating cities when they quit using balefire. The fact that a gholam hasn't met anything that could hurt it doesn't mean that instantly atomizing it wouldn't hurt it. It just means that it hadn't met anything that could atomize it.
As for the Gholam-in-cuendillar-box thing... interesting idea.
Question: Stasis box = ter'angreal. How did it hold a gholam?
The original point of this theory was whether or not Gholams are immune to the TP. People have made tons of good points regarding that question, but I still haven't seen anything that actually says they are, just some quotes about how it had never been defeated or something along those lines. But that just means that it's never gone head on against the TP, and that's beleivable since even if these things freaked the Forsaken out they wouldn't have dared use the TP on them unless they were the gholams target. The price is too high for them. So I personally think that they are constructs sustained in part by the TP. No matter how unnatural these things are, wouldn't it need some form of sustinence besides blood. I may not be a dietician, but I don't think bloods gonna cut it. It's got to have another means of support, and that means the TP. So it couldn't be immune to it. But if Mat's amulet is immune to the TP, then it would temporarily stop the TP from keeping the gholams tissues together, hence all the skin damage. This would also explain how it's possible to control the things.
About Egwene trapping it in a cage of cuendillar. You forget that a Gholam can fit through even the smallest crack, for them to trap it the box would have to be seemless and i don't think they could make a seemless box and turn it into heartstone fast enough.
I take the quotes given, and the Chosen's experience handling Gholam to mean that the Gholam have been exposed to TP and are immune to it. Niall, you think they haven't been exposed. The itch comment in the opening quote shifts the balance slightly in my favor, but it is still just a theory.
Why only 1-2, not 6? Th eothers are either free of their masters and have learned to keep a low profile, or as was suggested, they do age and eventually expire, or they're still sealed away waiting to be found.
Last. ~sigh~ The word nukes was a joke, meant to imply the biggest honking weapon Age of Legenders may have used. I do not believe nukes existed in the Age of Legends, I don't believe they were ever used on Gholam, and I just wanted to emphasize that Gholams are immune to the True Power.
Just to clear up my last comment...When I said that the True Power was what made it possible for the gholam to be controlled, I meant that something so nearly invulnerable might be even more scared of death than the average Shadowspawn. Just because a Forsaken hasn't ever given one of them a blast of the TP doesn't mean that the gholams wouldn't be afraid of the stuff. Sorry if I was unclear earlier.
Well, the gholam was obviously trapped in a stasis box somehow. And maybe weaves don't work on it directly, but it could still probably be snared in an air trap long enough to stick it somewhere and seal it off.
I think the stasis box is proof that you could send a Gholam through a Gateway... after all, if the stasis box (which is a ter'angreal that produces a lasting effect not directly associated with its actual Power use) can hold a gholam, a gateway (a weave that produces a lasting effect not directly associated with its Power use) should be able to send a gholam where you want it to go.
At least, that's my thought.
Also, (and I don't have page numbers, or the inclination to dig for them, but it's in CoT) when you make two things into cuendillar at the same time, they meld together. Thus, the box with a lid would work - just Heartstone-ify the whole thing at the same time.
Just a quick note about how stasis boxes could hold a gholam:
The gholam, like Mat's amulet, is immune to the OP when it is used directly against it. As someone said, a pitchfork thrown with Air would not be stopped by the Gholam's immunity, because the pitchfork isn't being held by the OP, it was simply flung by it.
Similarly, a stasis box would work because the OP inherent to the ter'angreal would affect *time* and would not directly affect what was inside it. This is, of course, assuming stasis boxes actually affect time instead of being some kind of magic vacuum sealed bag, but the fact that the Gholams with their need for blood survived seems to imply that time is being fooled with.
I was under the impression that Mat's medallian undid the weaves of the Power, One or True, that were directed at him. Not sure were I got that from.
But, if that is true, then wouldn't this have the effect of undoing the Golum when it came into contact with him? Thus, something he, the Golum, had never experienced.
Actually, all of this brings up an interesting question...
Whether or not a gholam is immune to the True Power, it's obvious the thing is well-nigh unstoppable. Thus... who put the gholam in the box, and how did they do it?
Perhaps, if that question were answered, both the gholam in a cuendillar box question and the True Power question would also be answered.
After all, if somebody put the gholam in the box using the True Power...
About the Cuendillar-box theory:
All of you who talk about cracks in the box seem to have forgotten one thing. When two objects of iron and changed into Cuendillar at once, they fuse. Thus, you could make a 5-sided cut box to put the gholam in, add a "lid" piece to complete the cube, and then have Egwene instantaneously flash-fry that thing to solid Cuendillar.
How did they get into those stasis boxes in the first place, I wonder.
Maybe they put an Aes Sedai in the stasis box and then tricked it into going into the stasis box. But really, the DO or the forsaken have some sort of control over the Gholams because they don't just wander around like Trollocs. They could just order them into the box. But Rand would have to trick it. Well, Mat's the trickster and he's encountered it before, so maybe he can do it. I bet they're not very bright.
As to the original theory- only Ishy really uses the TP, so the Gholams probably haven't been hurt by it. So I think they are probably not immune- they weren't designed for that. Ishy's used TP near him but not on him ever.
maybe the DO told it to get in... and a stasis box is probably somthing along the lines of a keeping... and things dont HAVE to be cuelindar to be indestructable. could just be a really sturdy box
Just an interesting little slant here - if the gholam is immune to the TP, and Rand does have the 'command ring', couldn't he command it to enter SG and kill the DO for him?
This possible scenario makes me feel that the gholam is not immune to the TP, because surely the DO would not have been so stupid as to leave them running around with the ability to destroy him.
There are some CRAZY theories in this thread. I haven't even had time to read them all, I just wanted to respond to a few before I have to write them all down....
1) Aginor DID create the Gholam. You dodn't even need to go to the big white book for that answer. It's mentioned in the series, in Tel Janin's musings about Aginor, "But then, he was always half mad... none but a madman would ever have created the Gholam." Sorry I forget which book, and that citation has been sitting in my memory banks for a couple of years, so it might not be word for word.
2) It's pretty unlikely that the TP is what is used to control the Gholam. The only forsaken who has the blessing to use the TP in the modern world is Moridin, and unless I remember wrong, Tel Janin specifically dispatches the Gholam in one of the books.
3) A "power ring"? Did the Forsaken get it in a box of Captain Crunch? (just teasing -_-v) I don't see how this would be necessary. I think it's much more likely that the Gholam are controlled with "Agreements and Accord" as the Myrddraal are. They were after all made by the same cat.
4) Gholams can't go through Gateways? Where do you people get these crazy thoughts? A Gateway is either a whole in the pattern or a temporary meld (depending on whether it's made with saidar or saidin)in the pattern between two places. ANYTHING can go through a Gateway, and ter'angreals have gone through them several times in the series. The Bowl of the Winds is one such example.
5) Did someone actually suggest that Gholam are ter'angreal?!?! Sheesh. I'm not even gonna dignify that one with a response.
imho the gholam would have to immune to OP (not the male/female split) they just arent that scary in AOL otherwise.
as for killing one, sliced with a gateway sounds most promising to me, but mightn't that just result in 2 gholam?? that would be fun :)
anyway, i think the iron/cuendillar sphere would work but i dont think any1 would ever think to try it. a much more likely tactic imho would be how Avi' tried to avoid randy Rand, create a gateway to "somewhere really far away" then let the gholam chase u thru it. once u r both in that "distant place" let that gateway close, open another one(or another form of Travel) jump thru it and close it behind u b4 the gholam has time to follow. It might not kill them but u could probably look forward to months, if not years, of healthy gholam free living.
I also like the theory (or did i just think this up?) of the gholam being a terangreal, this mite xplain it's reaction to Mat's medallion and how they were stored in the stasis box, it could also explain how they r controlled, no need to hurt them with OP just push the appropriate "button" on the remote.
Interesting side note here. So we know that the gholam behaves like Mat's medallion, ter'angreal theory or no ter'angreal theory. Elayne says as much in aCoS, when she gets the crap beaten out of her and Mat has to rescue her. She says something like: the flows just melted. Same type of stuff that Egwene mentions at the end of LoC.
On the other hand: what about indirect uses of the power? For instance, we know that Mat's medallion is immune to both saidar AND saidin (look up the part where "Halima" uses saidin on him). We know that he cannot be directly attacked by the OP. However, that didn't stop a lightning bolt from frying his butt in FoH. Oh yes, flow-melting or no, he got toasted nicely, and died and whatnot. Interesting, though. Could somebody hurl a lightning bolt and let go of the weave before it hits the gholam? I vote yes, although I think it would have to be much more powerful than a lightning bolt.
Also, there is one more interesting thing. Nothing but cuendillar can stand up to balefire. Ter'angreal, walls, TAR itself, have trouble with balefire. So maybe the gholam would unravel the weaves, or maybe Mat's medallion won't stand up to balefire. Or maybe if somebody loosed the flows the instant before it hit the gholam, it would continue on before it stopped. I think it's interesting, so rip it apart please :P.
So how would an unraveling of a gateway like the one Avi did affect a Gholam? That is a nifty weapon and when collapsing like that it is really powerful if you're lucky. Would the free flows affect him since no one is controlling them?
Janstince, I see a couple of problems with this 'releasing the weave' issue... First of all, I'm pretty sure gholam would have been caught in a thunder storm at some stage in their existence, and been hit by lightning - and it specifically 'stated' that it had encountered _nothing_ that could harm it.
With balefire, we've seen numerous examples of how it works - it only stays in existence while the weaves are held, disappearing as soon as the channeler releases the weaves.
Well, balefire seems to depend more on a target not indirect aim like the bolt. So Im willing to bet that the bolt will disipate on the gholam.
And for any indirect hits, remember that Mat threw a knife and the blade totally sank into the gholams flesh, and came out with no blood, and it didnt seem to be scared or hurt till the medallion came out. So I think a blot or rock or whatever wouldnt hurt it at all either. Only thing that leaves is the medallion that we know for sure that could work. But there are probably many others.
About the lightning- Mat was killed by lightning despite his medallion, so you can hit a gholam with lightning. Rather, it seems impervious to pain (like the knife) and damage, so lightning probably didn't hurt it. Slicing it into two parts with a gateway may not hurt it- merely separate it into two.
1. I had thought along the lines of LewsTherin80 who pointed out that Cadsuane also has ter'angreal that negate the one power. Now I envision these ornaments that stick in her hair like long bobby pins or hat pins -- what if you stuck one into the gholam? Mat's medallion seriously burned it just by brushing against its cheek. Something that stayed in contact with the gholam should really hurt it -- maybe even make it burst into flame! (Just an idea.)
2. I don't think the gholam is constrained at all at the moment.
We know it was under the control of Sammael who sent it to Jaichim Carridin to help him “deal with these Aes Sedai.” [CoS, Ch. 15 “Insects”, p 289] I think that when the gholam attacked them outside the storeroom, it was actually working under the orders of Carridin. This is the meaning behind “He wants you dead as much as he wants her.” [CoS, Ch. 38 “Six Stories”, p 598] “He” in this case means Carridin, who wants Mat dead per his instructions from Ishamael [p 286-287] and who wants Elayne (“wants her...”, NOT “wants her dead”) per his instructions from Pedron Niall (p283). Note that the gholam did not kill Elayne although he loves to kill channellers and did kill other Wise Women. If I'm right, the gholam was still constrained when we get its POV at the beginning of “Path of Daggers” even though Sammael was dead, because Carridin was still alive.
But either way, the person(s) who compelled the gholam are now dead. We have not seen the gholam since Carridin was killed in Camlyn, and I don't think it's under anybody's constraint! Bad news for everybody!
Mat was not killed by the lightning bolt. He was killed by the explosion as the lightning hit the ground. The medallion could not protect him from the secondary affects of the bolt.
has anyone read terry prattchet? the golam's in his books (made of clay) have words in their heads that control there actions. just a thought but wouldnt this work? if the gholams 'offline' until activated. this would explain the coment about a victim being added to his list (dont remember the direct quote but i think its cos)
I think Gholam can be killed, otherwise why would you put on in a stasis box? That means they can be harmed, or they can die of old age. Ways that might kill a Gholam: 1. Open a Gateway,and get the Gholam to step through. The Gateway opened on the bottom of the ocean, with the water kept back by another weave. 2. Open a Skimming Gateway, trick the Gholam through, and let him drop into the nothingness. 3. Open a gateway deep under the earth and let him go through.
Either way on Mat's death, he was killed by secondary effects:
Either, 1, he was killed by a naturally occuring lightning blast that originated in a Saidin enhanced storm, or, 2, he was killed by the explosion of the saidin lightning that struck near him.
We know his medallion protects him from saidin, from his encounter at the Aes Sedai camp with Halima.
Slicing a gholam with a gateway's edge wouldn't work. The gholam would "unravel" the weave, producing much the same effect as when Aviendha unraveled the gateway in book 8 (TPoD, "Unweaving")--the gateway would simply evaporate, with the gholam in one piece.
Also, the explosion that resulted when Elayne tried to unravel a gateway isn't definite: it could have merely been a flash of light, or it could have burned the ability out of Elayne, or it could have burned the ability out of everyone inside of 500 paces, or any number of other possible things. That's why it's so dangerous; you never know what it's going to do.
Also, don't automatically assume that the gholam has encountered everything discussed here; just because it hasn't encountered anything that can harm it doesn't mean that nothing can.
Someone mentioned using lightning to kill the gholam and another person claimed that the gholam had to have been struck by lightning sometime in it's existence. Why? Most people are never struck by lightning their entire lives. The gholam has (presumably) been in a stasis box since the end of the War of Power, so it would only have been "in the open" for a few hundred years. There is a good possibility that it has never been struck by lightning.
The gholam was constrained by Sammael. In ACoS ("Insects"), he tells Carridin that he will send *someone* to deal with the Aes Sedai. Then Sammael chuckled and said he almost wished he could see the Aes Sedai's faces. He probably told it to kill Mat as an afterthought. That means that it is still constrained, given that it thought about how it was constrained to follow the women at the beginning of TPoD, after Sammael was dead. Think of it this way: if you order an item through a mail service and die later that day, your order still comes in the mail. Even though Sammael died, the gholam was constrained to carry out his orders.
But if Gholam is under Sammael's orders, then his thoughts don't make sense. “He wants you dead as much as he wants her.” [CoS, Ch. 38 “Six Stories”, p 598] -- why would Sammael want Elaine dead specifically?
Also, what if we use a different analogy: for example, an electromagnet. The force is exerted only while the power is flowing; once the power is shut off, the magnetic field is broken.
Elayne is a strong channeler and second for ruling of a najor nation. Why wouldnt you want to have her in your control?
No, no, read that quote carefully.
"He wants you [Mat] dead as much as he wants her."
So he wants Mat dead, but he just wants Elayne. He doesn't (or didn't) necessarily want Elayne dead.
yeah, maybe. but who'd say it like that? if that eas what it ment then why not say "he wants you dead as much as her alive" or "he wants her as much as he wants you dead"? eather way is a lot more natural phrasing. you just wouldn't say it like that normally.
I agree with that interpretation of the gholam's thoughts. If you read my original argument above, you will see that's why I think the gholam was under Carridin's control at the time. Because we can guess all we want about why Sammuel might theoretically have wanted Elaine ... but we KNOW that Carridin did because he thinks earlier in the book about his instructions from Pedron Niall (COS, p283).
I haven't checked this theory of mine in a while, and I've seen some interesting points come up.
1. Who put the gholam in a stasis box? Graendal realizes based on what Sammael found inside (game pieces made from living people) that the stasis box had been the property of a darkfriend. So that darkfriend put the gholam away for a rainy day, maybe even passing instructions down through the centuries on how to find it until Sammael found or learned of it.
2. Only Cuendillar is immune to balefire so how can the gholam be immune to balefire? Balefire is made of the One Power. Cuendillar is metal modified by the One Power. It's interesting that cuendillar is unbreakable even by balefire, but the key issue is that even balefire flows can be disrupted, by cuendillar, steddings, and in all likelihood by the gholam. Unless the gholams were loose after the balefire ceasefire took place. Still, I have to believe that when faced with death, someone at least tried to use it.
3. Mat was/could have been killed by secondary effects of lightning. I don't think any argument on this matter affects the issue of the Gholam's immunity to True Power.
4. Many clever ways have been devised to get rid of the gholam without killing it. My new favorite is making a Gateway to the moon. The vacuum sucks the gholam in, and then he sure as heck isn't coming back. Presuming such a feat can be pulled off. But as with all the other clever ideas, it could be done, but only after many people have died at the gholam's hands so that its weaknesses could be determined. Maybe Mat's and Birgitte's knowledge can shorten the time needed to form the plan, but at th ecurrent moment, any of the characters other than Mat who meet the Gholam are DEAD MEAT, because their tactics will fail against it.
5. The Gholam is immune to the True Power. Let's not forget what the thread is about as we pursue these other fun discussions.
**Question: Was Mat right about the "snakelike" guy being a Gholam, and if so, are we to assume that the bad guys are going to have as much trouble stopping one as the good guys?
RobtJordan: I guess he was right. Because after all, his source for the information
RobtJordan : RobtJordan : was Birgitte, who has some memories of the War of the Power. And yes, if a gholam decided to turn against one of the Forsaken the Forsaken would certainly have as much difficulty in stopping the attack as any other person would. They were, after all, created for the sole purpose of assassinating Aes Sedai.**
So there must be something to control the Gholams, whether its the TP or something else, there IS something.
Don't think of it as the Gholam being immune to balefire the way cuendillar is immune.
Cuendillar... resists... balefire. The balefire strikes it but does nothing.
Gholams, on the other hand, are never touched by the balefire. It is as if the balefire weaves dissolve before they touch the Gholam.
The two ideas are not related.
This won't be popular, but:
It would appear that balefire is like fire in that it no longer is based on the OP once it is cast. A channeler casts it, then ducks for cover, without continuing the weave. So, we know Mat can be hit by lightning made of the OP, therefore he probably wouldn't survive balefire. He wasn't immune to balefire hitting someone else (he came back to life like Asmo and Birgitte when Rahvin bit it).
Lastly, the fact that nothing has hurt the gholam doesn't mean that it's magically invulnerable. It might mean that it's magically flexible and fast, and so no one has managed to hit it with lightning or balefire. It's clear that it's not affected by knife attacks or normal channeling, but I don't think anyone's managed to hit either Mat or the Gholam with balefire.
Solomonorex you stated that mat can be hit by lightning the thing is with lightning it must be that the one power is not used to directly make the lightning more like it helps develope the storm if this were true however Balefire is made up OF the one power thefore it may not be a valid comment however the same token i personally think if somone BFed mat he would be gone...now as for the part about mat being immune to BF there is no precidence for that however the BF did not have anything directly to do with coming back to life it was the burning of Rahvins thread that brought mat back which was a result of the BF its cause and effect
Rhavin Frys mat
Rand BF's Rhavin
Rhavins thread is burned who knows how far back but far enought that he never cast the lightning that means it did not happen therfore the BF only had a affect on mat in a round about way it never physically touched him thefore there is still no precidence for weather BF would actually fry mat but i have the feeling mats medallion only protects from so much
Mat was hit by lightning, yes. But was he hit by saidin lightning? Or was the storm itself made by saidin, and the lightning was just the ultimate, if wholly natural, desired result? I think the latter, since we know Mat's medallion protects him from saidin (re: Halima channeling at him in the Salidar AS camp).
And besides that, I don't get your point about the channeler setting the weave for balefire (which you compare to fire that is not monitored, basically), and then ducking and running for cover. Where do you get this notion? Always we have seen when balefire is channeled that the channeler is directly focused on the weave and controlling where it goes. I don't think you're right with this comparison.
This I borrowed from the WoT FAQ:
TDR: 55, What is Written in Prophecy
"There was an instant of surprise on the Forsaken's face, and he had time to scream No!' Then a bar of white fire hotter than the sun shot from the Aes Sedai's hands, a glaring rod that banished all shadows. Before it, Be'lal became a shape of shimmering motes, specks dancing in the light for less than a heartbeat, flecks consumed before his cry faded."
This is Moraine casting BF. It's not clear if the 'bar of light' is like a laser, i.e. or if it actually leaves her hand, since it says 'shot from the AS's hands'.
Still, Be'lal had time to scream 'no', so my point is valid: the Gholam may just mean that he has never been hurt before, not that it is nearly impossible to be hurt. In other words, BF or lightning or a small tactical nuclear device may in fact hurt him, but this had never happened because of his OP-absorption, extreme speed, quick reflexes and spinelessness.
Mat died by secondary effects of the lightning bolt (he died from the explosion when it hit the ground since the bolt was directed in the area of Rand). He did not die by lightning. When its cast, it may cause a storm (like with Egwene and Avi in the Cairhien battle), however the effect is still caused by that person (the storm does not talk over the weave and cast lightning wherever).
If you want to say that Balefire is no longer a weave after the caster stops, then fine, you could be right. Personally I disagree. I'm not saying that the Gholam is magically immune to anything and everything. Wait. Actually I am saying that!
Look at the Gholam's tactics. It has to get close to kill a channeler. You have to figure that a woman's first instinct is to wrap it in air, a man's is to fry it with fire. Does anyone disagree this is standard disposal of Shadowspawn we've seen? So, we can guess the Gholam has encountered both of these and not been hurt. If the gholam was active during the year of balefire, then I'd guess that someone tried to balefire it too, before it got too close. Same result, no harm. Based on typical attack and defense strategies we've seen, it's highly likely the gholam was attacked with balefire and one power in various attack forms.
The True Power, I am guessing, was also tried when the Forsaken started worrying about their own safety. A few quick tests, just to prove to themsleves that they had a way out if a gholam was sent against them. But, oops. Aginor made it too well. The only way the Forsaken are worried about gholams is if they don't know how to defeat it themselves, which implies that the True Power is useless against it.
While a gholam could feasibly have dodged such attacks, it's extreme confidence shows that dodging Power attacks is not something it does.
Ooohhh, the new interview gives the lifespan of a gholam. They live not as long as a strong Aes Sedai who has NOT sworn the Oaths. It CAN die of old age, and be killed. Presumably by pressing Mat's medallion into its head for a while. Some comments on the True Power may also have bearing on this issue. Hmm.....
thank you greatlord. so another way to kill a gholam is stick it in a vacuole where time goes faster. and i still say egwene can encase the gholam. it doesnt need to be anything fancy, just a big sphere.
Havn't read all the posts, there are lots. So. :- What if the medallion has the same effect on ALL shadowspawn? I mean, it dosn't negate the OP, it DRAINS it.
1) If the Gohlem is a Ter'angreal then it hasto be made from a person 'cos you need raw material!
2) Person, plus power=un-stoppable killing machine(Gholem). Gholem-power=One very dead guy. But as the un-stopable-giving OP is drained form the gholem it leaves burn marks 'coosa of all the raw power being pulled through.
3) Seams as all shadowspawn are made with some use of the OP (or TP?) then it should do the same to them. It's just that no SP has ever been touched wit it besides Jhonny Gholem. (The medallion might not be a Ter'Angreal...Maybe just an active void? Like a portable stedding?)
didn't E make leashes out of thin air? there was one and then there were two. she made ring T out of stone, but she also created them from nothing. she said they wernt as good as transmuted ones but they still worked. why do you need 'raw material'?
Trollocs were MADE with the Power. They HAVE BEEN made. Trollocs and Co. don't die in a stedding, so they are not made of the power.
1) I think Elayne said it...Somthhing about silver? Plue who would make the utimate killing machine with sub-standard methods? Surley that would provide a weakness of somesort?
2) Steddings are an absence of the OP, not a drainer of it. The OP just isn't there...there. But it's still inside the trollocs. Like...A well? Other Angreal ampplify the power or use it but wells store it so they can be used within OP deadzones. Somthing like that. So when a Trolloc goes into a stedding it dosn't die 'cos the power is already there. But too long and...maybe they do die.
you would have a really good argument if it was not for the fact that trollocs dont have the power in them they were made using the power but it does not supply them with life it is more like they were genetically engineered they were humans combined with diffrent animals so unfortunatly this has nothing to do with the powere as you explain it i think the reason trollocs dont go into the steaddings willingly is more likly because they are a place of peace and they are more like and embodiement of chaos
Have we seen any evidence of female trollocs yet? I can't remember any is all. An in the absence of any females, either they're made via the OP or they're just grown, which I think it unlikley. Plus, how could a species like that remain stable over 3000 years, with no change and yet still continualy produce such abberations as the Myrddraal succsesfully? They're a completley differant species. But if the trollocs were made via the OP then some abberations are to be pected, mixing DNA is a complex buisness.
Plus, the whole sensing of them and all. If after 3000 years they're just pumping out more of their own then it would be "natural" and there would be nothing to sense.
But this is about Gholams...so my view stands regardless lol.
actually i will have to read but i belive that the trollocs are made with existing humans not bread and as i said it is likly the power is involved but you basically said that they had the OP "IN" them not that they were made with it and Agnior was a brilliant scientist and they were concived when in my opinion science and OP use were both around in the AOL so it is possible but as you said this is all about Gholams so carry on
**Have we seen any evidence of female trollocs yet? I can't remember any is all. An in the absence of any females, either they're made via the OP or they're just grown, which I think it unlikley. Plus, how could a species like that remain stable over 3000 years, with no change and yet still continualy produce such abberations as the Myrddraal succsesfully? They're a completley differant species. But if the trollocs were made via the OP then some abberations are to be pected, mixing DNA is a complex buisness.**
Yes, there are female Trollocs. They are mentioned in the BWB and pretty much do nothing but mate.
Think of Trollocs like Rand's sword: They are made of different parts combined/altered with the OP, but they can reproduce more on their own. Human stock and animal stock combined with the OP and then bred so that Trollocs are made more and more and then the throwbacks to the human stock which are the Fades.
I'm not sure where the idea of golams being immune to the TP came in. I do belive that the OP doesn't harm them, but that doesn't mean that the TP can't. And just because the Golam has never come in contact with anything that could harm it before Matts doodad, it's possible that the TP and other things could harm it, but it just has never come in contact with them yet. Maybe it's immune to the TP, but then I have no idea of how the Forsaken or the Dark One even could control the little buggers.
I think that in the end, Matt and his medalion will have to take care of at least some of the golams, but I also think that Padin Fain might take out a couple. I'm pretty sure that a golam has never come in contact with the ruby dagger before. And we know that Padin Fain is missing a few screws, and is quite willing to mess with the Dark Ones afairs. However personaly, I don't have the slightest idea. I hoping Jordan will give us another hint in his next book.
Hmm That brings up a very interesting question what would happen to a Gholam if it was stabbed by the SL dagger? interesting though you have there
The gholam is just as bad as the SL dagger for all we know the gholam could be of shadar logoh or like mats medallion from the other side of his funky door. but i think there is a basic way for the box idea... metal box, bait (a living being), door, and liquid metal to block cracks. if its dumb and slow then it could happen.
naa forget the metal liquid metal thing just put it in a box and Egwene can turn the whole thing into cullendur in a matter of seconds heck stick mat in there to keep it in LOL somone could always open a gateway to the inside (and hope they dont cut mat in half) and get him out (all along of course assuming that i am wrong about weather or not a gholam can pass through a gate way as long as he does not touch the weave itself) hehe
what do we think about elayne re-creating the properties of matts med? she cant directly fiddle with the structure of it like she did b4 but she might b able to figure some way of using the fact it dissolves weaves to find out more about it, like sonar maybe?
Don't really know how to begin, but what if the gholam is like a werewolf? It can be hurt by silver.
". . .He gave a heave with what seemed his last strength--and the medallion fell against the man's cheek. The man screamed. Smoke rose around the edges of the foxhead, and a sizzle like bacon frying. Convulsively, he hurled Mat away with hands and feet both. This time, Mat flew ten paces and slid.
. . . .Gingerly, Mat fingered the medallion. It was cool. Not the cool of someone channeling nearby--maybe they were still at it below, but that was too far off--just the cool of silver."
I wonder if the gholam can be killed with silver. For example, Mat discovers gunpowder and firearms, then uses silver bullets against the gholams.
This may be too far out there, but the language in the book is curious.
i definatly like the idea but to what end? i mean why would she want to but on the same token if anyone can it will be her here is a interesting question about Mats medallion
Can a channler wear the Medallion and still channle? thought on this please i have some of my own but i want to hear what others have to say
The medallion only works when touching the skin. Elayne, has never studied it. Even though, Matt offered it. She knew it was his, and not from Rand at that point.
Chanelling with it on, I believe to be a non-sequitor. As long as it does not touch the skin. Remember the test trials in the stable, and Matt getting hit by the club. The one power works, when used to hit him, but not directly.
The gholam, even flying six stories didn't kill it; what can't be killed, which won't die at six stories? Except for silver?
but would someone wearing the medalian for protection be able to channel? would they be able to form the weaves or would it be like being severed. if so, is that the way to destroy the gholem?
an interesting question:
one does of course have been able to "touch" the true source... but I don't know of any part of the books that might answer the question if any actual physical contact is involved in the process of channeling.
a well has to be worn, and an ang touched. a person to be healed also has to be touched so i'd assume some physical contact needed for earth or spirit. fire and air might be seen to be present in the environment anyway (heat from the sun\wind) and so would be touching naturaly
Alivia has ter'angreal that dissolved Cyndane's weaves in Winter's Heart, but obviously left her own alone. I'd say such things as ter'angreal are usually designed to let the user act freely or channel as they wish. But since this medallion is of unknown origin (is it ter'angreal? was it made by Finns? Or Aes Sedai?) it may have atypical properties unlike those of regular ter'angreal.
but the medalian shows no inclination to affect anything past the physical bounds of the wearer. it is almost as if it gives the person wearing it a sort of portable stedding as opposed to disrupting the weaves themselves.
what do you think would happen if the gholam was forced to wear the medallion? could the medallion be made of the true power? this would explain where it said about the way the medallion made it feel "a ... feel... of something. Not the One Power, but something that made it it... itch, if not quite in the same way. The gholam seemed to remember something that made it itch in that manner."
1) Time does not go faster in a vacuole.
I don't think we have any proof as to that one.
2) The comment about the gholam itching I thought was specifically related to the TP, *not* to the ter'angreal medallion. He sees/feels the TP being cast, and this is what he reports about it. I could be wrong.
3) The medallion stops directed weaves. Most things the wearer would do with the one power would be directed somewhere other than at him/herself, so the amulet would not interfere. This is probably why Alivia was able to channel though she wore one of these Neutralizers: none of the weaves were directed at her person.
**1) Time does not go faster in a vacuole.
I don't think we have any proof as to that one.**
ACOS, Chapter 25: Mindtrap. Moggy specifcally says, and gives an example, that time in vacules can move faster or slower. She could've spent 3 days in there and came out 3000 years past in the real would or 3 hours.
I have a few points.
To whoever said silver bullets for the gholam. Nice thought and all but even if mat *does* figure out how to make cannons, i doubt a gholam is gonna get caught by a silver cannonball. Also, there is no way in hell that mat could make a gun lol. Cannons would be a big step, just think about how long people used cannons before they had guns. And even if he invents some kind of rifle or musket i wouldn't put it past a gholam to be able to dodge bullets or get close enough to make it useless. However, I do believe the silver idea is a good one and I wouldn't discount it right away. It does seem rather mundane, and annoyingly impractical for the everyday person, however. I mean who wants to carry around a flimsy silver sword *just* in case you see a gholam? ;)
Gholam a ter'angreal? Well, I'd say that is a pretty big stretch even for AOL smarties. Sure ter'angreal are pretty damn innovative but is there any other evidence of a living ter'angreal? When I think 'ter'angreal' I think 'object'.
Gholam being struck by lightning? No, I really really doubt that the gholam was struck by lightning. It would be an insane coincidence for it to happen. I mean, what are the odds? I know a lot of these points have been addressed but I just read the *entire* thread and felt like I had to post. =P
Also, I've seen some comments about gholams being slow or stupid. Ok these things are like the ultimate killers... When you think about the ultimate killers do you think slow and stupid? No these things do not stumble up to a channeler and knock it over the head with a big club. These guys are fast, clever, and agile. If you want slow and stupid talk to a trolloc. (Yes yes I know trollocs aren't exactly "slow" but compared to a fade or gholam...)
The box theory- highly, highly, unlikely. That is way to simple of something for a gholam to be trapped in unless it was through some form of gateway. The gholam will be killed, not captured. Isn't it a bit Scooby Dooish to believe you can just trick the gholam into running into a box? This thing was alive in the AOL, i'm sure the people back there were a lot more ingenious than to use simple box tricks and they hadn't figured out a fail-safe way to stop one.
Is the gholam immune to the true power? I don't think we have enough information about either to decide. There has been no in-depth textual discussion about the true power, or its limitations. I also don't think vague statements about a gholam and his own personal experiences are enough to base an opinion about the creature as a whole.
To solomonrex's comment about whether balefire leaves the AS's hand or whatnot: It was made clear by the wise ones that those fancy hand motions AS love to do when they throw their fireballs and crap aren't necessary. I think they even mocked it, and then showed Egwene that she could form the weaves so the fireballs came out of the air instead of from her hand. So... I'd say the same is true for balefire.
Trollocs in the stedding- I know i'm backtracking quite a bit but I feel like I need to reiterate this. Trollocs were engineered, made, whatever, it is irrelevant. They breed. They steal women from borderlands etc (I don't have the exact quote for that.) They have no inherent residence of the one power within their bodies, if they did they'd be a hell of a lot harder to kill than they are now. Incase no one pointed it out, Myrdraal (sp?) are an anomaly. I believe the terminology used is a "throwback to the human stock" that trolloc are mixed with.
Closing/Opening a gateway on a gholam? The flows of the gateway would dissipate if you tried to open one on a gholam. If you tried to close one on a gholam it could possibly work, however, I think the real issue is getting the gholam to stand nicely still for you inside the gateway while you close it on him.
To end this rambling mass of nonsense, I'll just close with this. I think we can expect a lot more out of Robert Jordan and the gholam than for it to be as simple as "oh yeah btw moridin was just like mr. gholam i don't like you anymore and killed im with the true power." I'm sure we can expect something much more dramatic to take place.
Sorry but i can't see an all powerful being that is vunerable to something as commen as silver. Matts amulet is not purely made of silver surely. pure silver doesn't affect weaves so even if the base is silver, some form of atomic alingment or morph must of happened with a power. the only way i can see silver bullets working is if they melt down the fox head. can you see matt letting that happen?
As for the box theory of trapping a gholam, don't just think of a simple man sized coffin... something that the gholam would easily see.
Think of luring it into a building. It goes through the front door, into a vestibule that opens to the left and right into a hallway. His victim went left, so it does, too. One step out of the vestibule, however, three doors close on him: 15 feet ahead at the end of the hall, 25 feet behind at the end of the other hallway, and the door that he used to enter the house. That whole area (vestibule and hallway) is built against the internal walls of a large iron chamber. Three iron doors close simultaneously, perhaps even *behind* wooden doors (so that the gholam cannot see them being closed)... one flash of cuendillar-ization and the whole thing is fused into one solid mass... and the gholam never saw it coming. Burn the house down around it, set up a tent, and sell tickets. See the gholam's prison, 2 silver marks.
Maybe you could have coupon day.
Gholams can move REALLY fast though, and unless you can find a person willing to be sacraficed that the gholam is hunting (namely matt) then that person needs to get through all the inner rooms of the house just before the gholam and out the back door before everythings zapped. even with matt's luck thats not good odds.
Just to restate the key point: the Gholam had never encountered ANYTHING that could harm it. But the True Power residue gave it a somewhat familiar itch. AN ITCH! Gholams are definitely immune to the True Power.
Aginor made the Gholam... Now I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure that making a creature that was immune to the True Power (which stems from Shai'tan) would be blasphemy. Shai'tan would certainly (and wisely) have seen them as a weapon to be used against him. Sorry guys, I'm not buying this one.
I have to agree. The Gholam wouldnt be immune to the True Power. Even if it was the only ones that would be safe would be the few chosen allowed to touch the TP at any given time. So that would mean only Moridin is safe right now. There has to be some other way to control them other than the power.
I am under the impression (possibly wrong so let me know if I am) that the Gholam was held in a Statis box and freed by Sammael. Now, if the Gholam was held in a stasis box, it would have to be susceptible to the One Power. Unless a stasis box can only be used by the TP but I have not seen anything to substantiate this. If the Gholam were held always immune to the One Power, how could the Stasis box have held it?
Good point on the stasis box. Perhaps the stasis box works on the basis of one of the mirror worlds/TAR where time flow is different. The items are held somewhere, where to them, no time has passed since the AoL. To the Gholam, 3,000 years passed in the blink of an eye. As for them only working with the TP. I doubt that. The stasis boxes must work with the one power. Sammael mentions that his was from a DF during the AoL, showing that both followers of the light and shadow had them. Since only some of the Chosen can channel the TP, the stasis boxes must work off the OP.
Also, even if a Gholam is immune to the OP being used AT IT, it doesn't mean it couldn't be held by something that used the OP itself.
I don't know how stasis boxes work, but they don't necessarily have to be used by channellers...
It's mentioned in the books that not all stasis boxes were used by friends of the Dark, so there's no way they necessitate the TP, and as Dorindha says, there's no proof they necessitate the power to use at all.
**Also, even if a Gholam is immune to the OP being used AT IT, it doesn't mean it couldn't be held by something that used the OP itself.**
While that is true, there are other considerations. If the Gholam is just held in a box and can't get out, wouldn't it starve if it could not eat? Besides, as is mentioned, the 3000 years seemed to pass in the blink of an eye. It seems that unless the OP directly effected the Gholam, the gholam would have had to live those 3000 years. And the idea about the stasis box moving its contents to a different dimension has some problems. The OP would have to interact with the contents to do this. Much like a gateway. I don't think this would work.
**I don't know how stasis boxes work, but they don't necessarily have to be used by channellers...**
I agree. But even ter'angreal that don't require the use of the OP to use them still use the OP to do what they do. While a statis box may not need a channeler to activate it, as I described above, the contents would still be touched by the OP.
One thing I haven't seen here (or maybe just missed - in that case, sorry for taking space) is gholam and balefire. When someone is killed by balefire that person ceases to exist before he/she is actually hit by a balefire ray. This presents some kind of paradokx. Gholam can neutralize ANY wave of OP that DIRECTLY touches him, so wave of balefire would not dissolve because it would not actually touch him - he would be gone a moment before it would. But he must be touched by balefire so that it can do its "magic" on him. But if wave of balefire would touch him it would dissolve. But it would not touch him for he would be gone a moment before it would. But... Hope you get what I mean.
In my opinion balefire would kill gholam. OK, I can already hear "never met anything that could harm it" quote but I have no problem with it. If gholam ever had 'close' contact with balefire he would be no more. With balefire funny thing is that it doesn't matter where you hit unless you hit - all or nothing - and gholam is fast enough and agile enough to dodge it. Simply nobody managed to hit him with a balefire ray till this time and don't forget that usually you have only one chance to try and more often even less - gholam is assassin, he prefers surprise to frontal attack.
There is only one flaw in this thesis - gholam would have to have a thread in pattern, just like ordinary people, for balefire to work on it. If he has no thread he would simply be hit but not killed (just like hitting a wall or something like that). Maybe part of him would be erased? Balefire used to rubber him out? But gholams were crafted, they are 'things' not 'persons' this would suggest that no thread exists - no balefiring. But those 'thigs' think, they have emotions, desires, they die of old age - point in favor of thread.
Besides it really is not known what happend with those 5 gholams. They could be in stasis boxes, they could have died of old age or they could... have been destroyed. Yes destroyed. After all statement that this gholam never met anything that could harm it doesn't necessarily mean that the others didn't.
As for True Power. I believe it can kill gholam.
1. Gholam feels 'itch' from only so little as residue of TP, so it can affect him somehow.
2. I don't think Forsaken tried TP on gholam in some 'tests' before. Demandred says, that he had used TP "*only* in direst need" (emp mine) and checking if TP works doesn't seem 'a dire need' to me.
3. If they were unaffected by TP they would have the potential to defeat the Dark One, even to kill him. And I believe that we all agree that something like that would be impossible.
Funny idea just flashed in my head (it's 5:35am), if rand has a thing that controls gholam (from Illian) and if gholam is unaffected by TP and if rand will discover what he has, he could use gholam in tLB to defeat DO.
Actually Balefire affects inanimate (sp?) objects as well as people, ie, when Rand and Rahvin are going at it, the walls in the Palace are cut and made as smooth as glass where the weave hit them. So it might be possible for Balefire to destroy a gholam, but I doubt it. I beleive that what ever makes a gholam immune to the OP would dissolve/negate the weave before it ever touched him/her...it.
Yes I know that BF affects inanimate objects. What I mean is when a 1 inch in diameter ray of BF hits a door (for example) it will leave a 1 inch hole in that door but door itself would be still existing (apart from the hole). When BF hits human, such unlucky person simply vanishes - no corpse left.
Maybe its the heart of the matter; if gholam has a thread it would be killed by BF, if it has no thread it wouldn't - BF would touch it and dissolve.
**So it might be possible for Balefire to destroy a gholam, but I doubt it. I beleive that what ever makes a gholam immune to the OP would dissolve/negate the weave before it ever touched him/her...it.**
Balefire almost certainly won't work. The problem (or advantage) with gholams is they were on the same principle as Mat's medallion: direct OP weaves do not effect them (however, we have only seen saidar being channeled at gholams, so it could be an opposite gender control (female gholams immune to saidin, male gholams immue to saidar)). Balefire is a weave that has to be targeted at a specific point, that point can be moved but it must be fired first. So it has to be directed at the gholam, and hence, would disapate, and be useless.
Also, it makes Mat almost for sure impossible to be balefired :);).
Nig objection here- no way is Mat immune to balefire! I'd be surprised if the gholam was either, and similarly if the gholam was immune to the 'true' power. All we know is that it's never encountered anything which could destroy it, but remember that both Balefire and the True power are absolute last resort weapons because of their potential hazards... the forsaken are so unwilling to use them that several died without resorting to them (even when they still had the DO's blessing to do so).
The Gholam's surprise element is so good that few channelers would have time to resort to such tactics, so it wouldn't necessarily have encountered them.
I don't really go with the whole invincibilty of the gholam thing, sure conventional weapons haven't done much, but it simply can't be indestructible (RJ did study physics after all!), so high enough temperature or pressure would surely damge it somehow, and kill it if sustained.
As for the True power, it seems pretty awesome to me- presumably that's what the DO used to weaken the cuendillar seals... I can't see much surviving against it.
**Nig objection here- no way is Mat immune to balefire!**
Uhh, yes, he is. As long as he has the medallion on since it would destroy the balefire weave.
You sure of that? I don't remember anyone testing balefire on Mat, and remember Rahvin killed him with lightning... he can be killed by the effects without the weave touching him, I don't think it's been made clear whether the weave in balefire continues in the fire itself...
and my guess is it doesn't- balefire carries on through walls, so the maker wouldn't be able to see the part of the fire which is beyond the wall, but nonetheless it keeps going. Looks to me like the weaving is only at the channeler, and the fire is an effect which propagates away from it's source. Hence Mat (or a Gholam) could be damaged, as they wouldn't actualy touch the weaves...
Or so I reckon...
I am going to post a entire theory on the stasis box shortly however i wanted to say this as i have said before i dont think the argument of a Gholam not being able to travle via gateway is absurd you can walk through a gateway without ever touching the threads it is created with when men create a gateway it is described as folding the world and ripping a hole in it take a peice of paper and fold it in half and make a half dollar sized hole in it now put your finger through it your finger does not touch the sides the OP is only used to make and maintain the hole but the space in the middle does not contain the OP it is like going through a open door or better yet a hole in the wall a Gholam can travle through a gateway without unravling it this is also a similar basis for my stasis box theory which i will submitt shortly
On Gateways: Whether the Gholam would sever the weaves holding it open or not is at issue, but Mat doesn't, stepping through one, so we can conclude that:
either it doesn't work that way, or the weaves are at the edges.
If the weaves are at the edges, holding the rest of the pattern back, and the gholam unweaves them, the weaves will deform into a random shape, as did the one at the Kin Farm(this is unlikely to hurt the Gholam, but may kill anyone watching). There's also the possibility that it merely closes the pattern as it walks, pushing the weaves holding open the gateway closer, shrinking it.
When the edge passes through a man, there is really no edge, just suddenly an area where the other side is a thousand miles away. If you're standing straight up and it cuts your left and right side exactly in half, they fall inward, half into the other side of the gateway a thousand miles away, half through the back of the gateway(though any entropic movement backwards[blood rushing through veins faster than your fall]) would also pass through.
This doesn't really faze the Gholam, as if it's a homogenous fluid being that merely appears to be a man, then it has distributed command/control and can direct a movement at the area a thousand miles away to shrink back into the rest of the body in a particular way. If, however, you tried to move the whole thing back into the home side of the gholam, and it doesn't move back the part of it split(keeping it on the side of the gateway it was originally on), you will have juxtaposition of its flesh going backwards through the gateway with the flesh coming back through the gateway, and odd things could happen then.
The Gholam's danger from the gateways edge if he doesn't sever it in some way is nowhere near the same as a man's, but depending on how many of the laws of physics it faces, and how diligently it controls its deformations, there are ways to sever one part from another or juxtapose flesh on existing flesh, with unknown results.
Mat seems to believe that he saw a gholam in Shadar Logoth: Mordeth. If he is correct, then Padan fain merged with a Gholam to form Ordeith. No one has ever channeled at Fain, or hit him with a weapon, so do you think that he also has certain immunities to channeling and physical harm as the Gholam does? Is this why the Forsaken and Isam can't locate him?
People have tried channeling at Fain. In Shienar when he is captured and held in the dungeon. Moiraine channelled at him and so did one of the girls.
Great Lord... as far as I remember (and I don't have the books here to check) Mat says he saw a Gholam in Shaidar Logoth to cover up the fact that Birgitte had given him his information. (I think)
As for Mordeth/Fain being a Gholam... there's another theory on this, and IMO the case is closed- neither are/were Gholams, Fain has been channeled at several times, and held with air (eg by Moiraine in the first book, and Alviarin in the tower later on) Mordeth was also kept away by Moiraine's warding in SL... and besides which his powers and methods are very ungholamy (Woo, new word!)
**If he is correct, then Padan fain merged with a Gholam to form Ordeith. No one has ever channeled at Fain, or hit him with a weapon, so do you think that he also has certain immunities to channeling and physical harm as the Gholam does?**
No, Moiraine has Healed him after the SL incident.
**TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 47 - More Tales of the Wheel
"Fain did not like what was done to him at Shayol Ghul," Moiraine continued calmly. "While we talked, he screamed often of fire and burning. It almost killed him, bringing it all out from where he had it hidden. *Even with my Healing he is a shattered ruin.* It will take much to make him whole again. I will make the effort, though, if for no other reason than to learn what more he still hides. He had been chosen because of where he did his peddling. No," she said quickly when they stirred, "not the Two Rivers only, not then. The Father of Lies knew roughly where to find what he sought, but not much better than we in Tar Valon.**
I dont belive that Mordeth is a Gholam however i think everyone has a time frame issue at the end of the first book had Fain actually merged with Mordeth i think no because if it only took that amount of time to have that happen then why was mat not merged? i dont think the argument that he was healed in the first book really comes into play because i dont belive they were yet merged he is still calling himself fain at this point.
as i said before though i do not belive Moredeth to be a gholam however the major argument against is flawed
I knew Mat was trying to cover up that Birgitte fed him the info, but for some reason I thought he was also being sincere. Your explanation works for me. As for when the merge took place, at the end of EotW, Fain says he is 'taken by spells' but that will soon stop, so the merging is not yet complete at that point I'd say.
the merging may not be complete, but it's underway, and you'd have expected power resistant tendencies ot manifest along with his other oddities... besides he's still held in air by Alviarin much later on...
Dragonsceptor, I know thtis is going back a bit but i just read this and it threw me a little...'the 3000 years seemed to pass in the blink of an eye. It seems that unless the OP directly effected the Gholam, the gholam would have had to live those 3000 years...The OP would have to interact with the contents to do this.'
why? Thats like saying food needs direct electrical current to keep in a fridge. If the one power is what causes the stasis box to work, then the 'active' stasis box generates a field of whatever to suspend time within the bounds of the box (IMHO)
heronblade, so you are suggesting that the stasis box uses the OP to create a field of space where time is stopped?
If this is true then I agree with you. However, I'm not sure this is true. The problem is that there are various mechanisms that could be used and we don't know HOW the statis boxes work.
However, you did get me thinking about this again. With regards to the stasis boxes, how big are they? It would seem that they would have to be pretty big to fit a gholam. Unless it is similiar to Moody's trunk in Harry Potter where there can be a hug chamber that the box is just the access portal to. But that seems similar to the idea of a gateway that was addressed above.
trouble is we also don't know that much about the gholams true nature, i mean, we know the gholam can shift its physical form, it passed under a door, but can it change it's mass? if it cannot then we have a minimum size for at least one stasis box, and i would assume a maximum size of a small room (based on the asumption that anything larger would be difficult to hide and that this is a size i can comfortably consider as opposed to and support from the texts) anything else is difficult to speculate, we have to rafo
Maybe stasis boxes arn't anythign to do with the Powers, I mean, they DID had tech as well as the Powers... or maybe the weave was around the boxes, stopping time from entering... like the Seal on the DO prison, the Forsaken near the outside aged and got all old and rotty. So maybe the Gholem couldn't stop it 'cos it never came into contact with the flows directly, like Mat's medallion. And maybe thats why it was feeling, like, the weave was there that was effecting it but it just couldn't touch it in order to get rid of it. But, 'cos the stasis box stopped time when the weave was... wove, it only felt the weae it couldn't touch for a split second before it got woken as the weave was broken. Then again, maybe me. It's just a theorie.
i've been thinking about the mecanics of the dissolving the weaves. if the weaves are 'destroyed' then that is different from them being 'uncreated' and makes me think they were more consumed than anything else. if the word consumed is apt then i would expect the gholam to have some control over what and when it would 'eat'. therefore it is possable that we cannot judge anything about the stasis box from their lack of interaction with gholams. a gholam would only have to refrain from destroying/disolving for a split second as he/she/it passed through/into any weaves that susspended/moved the area outside of time.
The idea that a gholam can control its abilities is interesting. Perhaps they work by default, yet it can turn them off momentarily, like breathing? It certainly would make them more versatile and useful, but would it really be necessary? And if it was true, would the Forsaken still be so nervous around them?
If the Gholam were immune to the true power along with the one power. Who would be im command of it. It must have some weakness besides Mat's Medallion or the forsaken wouldn't have created them. Why would they create something which would be able to kill them all rather easily?
whenever the forsaken think of the gholam, they think that only a madman would have ever made them. aginor was the only person, probably in existance to think it was a good idea. Also the Gholam thinks that it had always been constrained to obey someone, tho it its mind it holds the concept of not being constrained, meaning that what the commander of thoe Gholam wants it to do, the Gholam itself WANTS to do. The actual mechanism of commanding the Gholam is unknown, and is probably not true power. If the Gholam had been commanded by true power, then it would not have commented, upon "smelling" the window frame that Moridin destroyed that it had smelled somthing similar long ago. The command to kill Matt being recent enough to more then likely be memorable.
Oops, parrallel debates on the two threads...
** If the Gholam were immune to the true power along with the one power. Who would be im command of it. It must have some weakness besides Mat's Medallion or the forsaken wouldn't have created them. Why would they create something which would be able to kill them all rather easily? **
It isn't necessarily controlled through threats. The fact that it's not used to being harmed suggests this as well.
Other threads have touched on what controls it, someone suggested a talisman/ter'angreal, which is plausible, but a little lame. I prefer the idea that it is simply loyal to its master (although how it determines who its master is I don't know).
I think that the gholam may have been "deactivated" while in the stasis box. If it was "turned off" the time would have passed in the blink of an eye. Also why would the box have to be very big to contain it. We are talking about a thing that can change it's form, it could have just molded itself to the inside of the box then been deactivated only to be turned on agian in 3000 years.
To the origional line in this thread I think the True Power makes it immune to the One Power, but it is still vunerable to the True Power that helped create it.
I have a problem with some of the recent ideas here.
Some of you think that the gholam's attributes are because it was created using the True Power. Doesn't that necessarily mean that since Mat's Medallion works the same way, that his medallion was created using the True Power as well? And if a Gholam is not immune to True Power, then neither is Mat?
I often feel like folks want their hero to have an ace in the hole, but that they don't want a villain to have the same, or better one.
I would agree that Mat is not immune to the True Power. He wanted a way to be free of AS he got it. I do not envy who ever the gholam goes after next.
RJ's answer to question of the week number 6 provides fodder for more discussion on this topic:
Q: How were the Gholams made? Were they created or bred like the Trollocs? How exactly are they controlled if they are immune to the One Power?
Robert Jordan Answers:
The gholam—singular and plural are the same—were created, not bred. Supposedly their creation involved making them so that they would be obedient to the Chosen, whoever they might be at any given time. This was an attempt at copying something that had turned up in Myrddraal, which seem incapable of disobeying one of the Chosen, possibly because of the use of the True Power in creation of the Trollocs, the parent stock of the Myrddraal. Even Aginor, who created the Trollocs, and thus indirectly the Myrddraal, was uncertain about the actual cause. (Becoming one of the Forsaken involves receiving a mark from the Dark One in return for your oaths; this mark is invisible and cannot be sensed by another human being, even another of the Forsaken, but it can be by certain non-human creatures, including Myrddraal and draghkar among others. This may play a part in the Myrddraal's obedience but doesn't explain it completely.) This element in gholam has some flaws, however, as we have seen in a small measure. In any case, if I were you, I wouldn't try giving orders to a gholam unless I were one of the Forsaken.
Some interesting tidbits:
Confirmation of TP use in Trolloc creation, and seemingly, though not spelled out, in the creation of Gholam.
Gholams were 'supposed' to be obedient to the Forsaken. The gholam we saw was capable of independent thought enough to delay its tasks.
The Dark One 'marks' his servants. This could be a marking of rank, to create a hierarchy of servants including darkfriends, Black Ajah, fades, and Forsaken. It could also be a means of locating servants, or giving instructions. For example, Alviarin's Mark could mean "hands off Forsaken!" It could even be alink to the DO himself. As in for Transmigration. This raises the question of whether Rand has been marked, and what his mark means.
So nice of RJ to turn his attention once again to his most feared creation, which is absolutely immune to the True Power, even if it was created by it.
I agree with Natas. Silver is the key.
Why? If it really was just a dissolving of the weaves that held the Gholam together then mere physical contact with Matrim would have caused the Gholam to begin to unravel. Since the Gholam did several WWF moves on Mat without receiving any harm then I suggest that the power nullification property of the medallion (which extends to Mat when he is in physical contact with it) is not damaging to the Gholam. Violent reaction between two similar ter'angreal can also be ruled out using the same argument. Would it be a spectactular ending to the Gholam to see it bite the bullet by someone using silver? No. Would it fit with the altering of the infamous Werewolf weakness? Yes.
Personally I would prefer to have rubbernilly's suggestion implemented for the demise of the Gholam (encasing in Cuendillar and then take the Gholam around as a freak show exhibit). If this happens please send tickets.
**This raises the question of whether Rand has been marked, and what his mark means.**
Uh... what mark do you mean? The one from Lanfear in TGH? That was Healing.
Callandor, I read RJ's response to your question about what Lanfear was doing as "She was marking him as the Drgaon, with the Drgaon's Fang, for th ereason you would expect, because he is the Dragon"
My thoughts are whether that Mark has any other properties. Which RJ was kind enough to not mention.
**My thoughts are whether that Mark has any other properties. Which RJ was kind enough to not mention.**
Well that's nice enough to suppose, but Healing is far more likely, with nothing else intended (unless the Forsaken can give out these Marks to anyone).
**TITLE: The Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 48 - First Claiming
The woman came to stand over the bed--her movements were so graceful, Min felt a stab of envy, though she had never before envied any woman anything--and smoothed Rand's hair as if Min were not there. "He doesn't believe yet, I think. He knows, but he does not believe. I have guided his steps, pushed him, pulled him, enticed him. Ishamael thinks he controls events, but I do." *Her finger brushed Rand's forehead as if drawing a mark; Min thought uneasily that it looked like the Dragon's Fang. Rand stirred, murmuring, the first sound or movement he had made since she found him.***
Lanfear obviously channeled at Rand and he is reacting to the effects of female channeling.
**TITLE: The Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 49 - What Was Meant to Be
"You can't do any good with that. It hasn't healed all the way, yet. *Verin tried Healing, but she said it didn't work the way it should." She hesitated, nibbling her lip. "Moiraine says Nynaeve must have done something, or you wouldn't have lived till we carried you to Verin, but Nynaeve says she was too frightened to light a candle.* There is... something wrong with your wound. You will have to wait for it to heal naturally." She seemed troubled.**
And the puzzle snaps together.
1. Rand was deathly ill.
2. Rand would not have lived to get to Verin had he not been Healed.
3. Rand was Healed at some point, because he lived.
4. Nynaeve did not Heal Rand since she was too frightened.
5. Moiraine did not Heal Rand, since she was not present.
6. Egwene did not Heal Rand since she went to go get Nynaeve and Moiraine.
7. Lanfear did channel at Rand.
8. My stunning question:
What did Lanfear do to Rand at the end of The Great Hunt, when she drew the Dragon's Fang on his forehead?
Robert Jordan Answers:
She drew the Dragon Fang on his forehead. For exactly the reason you would think.**
Now what is more obvious, then Lanfear channeled at Rand, and Healed him so that he would survive to be hers??
Also, if you state that the something wrong is a mark, I can't help you there because you're reaching. The something wrong is quite evident the unHealable would from Ishamael's staff.
Callandor, I won't dispute that Lanfear healed Rand, but I am forced to wonder for the reasons stated above, whether something else took place as well.
**Callandor, I won't dispute that Lanfear healed Rand, but I am forced to wonder for the reasons stated above, whether something else took place as well.**
What reasons? What took place? RJ said the OBVIOUS thing took place; what is more obvious then the Healing?
She drew the Dragon's Fang for exactly the reason you would think: Because he IS the Dragon. She didn't draw it to heal him, she drew the DRAGON's fang because he is the DRAGON. The healing she also did, whether at the same time or slightly before or after makes no difference to me. What I question is whether she did the Dragon's fang for herself, or to mark Rand in some way, realting to the marks discussion above.
**She didn't draw it to heal him, she drew the DRAGON's fang because he is the DRAGON. The healing she also did, whether at the same time or slightly before or after makes no difference to me. What I question is whether she did the Dragon's fang for herself, or to mark Rand in some way, realting to the marks discussion above.**
Yes, thank you for stating the obvious thing she did; drawing a fang with her finger while Healing, whoa! Wow! Such a dark and evil thing to do.
Look, we have obvious evidence that Rand was Healed. We have no evidence at all that anything else took place. We have no reason to believe anything else took place, other then people's "feelings". And RJ stated the obvious thing took place.
Sorry, Healing can't be much more obvious, and nothing else happend.
If a gholam was in a block of iron, wouldn't it absorb the weaves trying to cuendillar-ize it? I'm genuinely unsure of this.
Jumai, you're getting off topic here. The topic is... oh wait, we ARE talking about gholams.
Wouldn't another possibility be that Mat may use his upcomming discovery of dyamite/ gunpowder/ what have you, to blow the Gholam to bits? No OP or TP involved there. And based on RJ style I think Mat will be the one to kill the Gholam if anyone. Some one may have already posted a theory like that but it's just a thought.
ok, im new to this site and i was reading this theory for a while until i saw a reply that said gholams might be able to pass through the "holes" made by Traveling. if thats so, why not make one of the Skimming holes and let it fall forever? or somehow trap it in a Way and let the Black Wind handle it(the gholam has a mind, so it must be able to lose it)?
From the RJ Q&A page:
Since the first few books, Rand's and Perrin's dreams have been protected. Rand can weave a ward around his dreams. Perrin being a wolfbrother has protected his dreams. How have Mat's dreams been protected since the first half of the series?
Robert Jordan Answers:
A side effect of his foxhead medallion, though he doesn't know it. This was not part of the intended purpose of making the medallion; it's a true side effect.
Thansk to ADF for making the link between this answer and the gholams: A good question was it. And an important answer. Protection of dreams can be also a sideffect (highlighted that it is a sideeffect) from a ter'angreal that doesn't allow OP to the person, not by any positive weave. So wouldn't the technique to ward dreams be used to create ter'angreals like Mat's one? Or to create Gholam?
I will add: does this mean a gholam has no TAR refelction? Can a Gholam be brought to TAR and captured or beaten there? Can the Gholam dream?
Has Ewgene tried to reach Mat in a dream. She has described that a female warding fells different than a male warding. Does Mat's warding feel different than either? Does his dream/soul even show up in the GoI?
**Does his dream/soul even show up in the GoI?**
Even Aes Sedai's dreams and Rand's dreams, when warded, show up in the Gap of Infinity. No reason to assume that Mat's don't, even if they are protected.
Egwene has not yet tried to reach mat in a dream so we cannot tell if the medallion's warding is different from Saidar or Saidin wardings. Just in case this argument is not dead, I think that egwene could weave fire and earth to melt iron, air WEAVED ON THE IRON (not on the gholam) to cover the gholam in molten iron, and then flash it to cuendillar. Voila, a cuendillar gholam.
I think that the Gholam are immune to the true power. And the other that you have to remember is that the only forsaken that has the permission to use the TP is Ishy/Moridin, so that means that if he sent a Gholam to kill one of the other forsaken, even if they could be damaged with the TP, they would be going against the DO's wishes. I don't think they want to be making that choice, would they. So the fact they're scared of them is not an accurate way to judge them. My reason for this is that supposedly they were offspring of Myrrdael(I don't know that for sure), and even if they weren't they seem to think and act a lot like a being of some sort. So it had to come from something and be related to something with Myrdael type powers. For them to be the way they are, they have to be fairly powerful in a variety of ways. They can't be hurt by steel, or by the one power, and they can turn into a liquid in go into a tiny hole in a wall. The true power behaves a lot like the one power, and seeing all the things they can't be killed by, it kind makes it hard to believe the true power can do it. I believe the only way is to use Mat's ter'angreal in some form or fashion. That's the only proven way that has been seen to hurt it, and the way it seems to be tracking him down, he'll probably have to kill it or he'll die trying. And if you think about the TP, supposedly it won't be used by Rand(or any one else, but not likely) until the last battle, if any. So it wouldn't do much good if it could be hurt. Mat is our only hope.
It stands to reason that the gholam are immune to the TP. It also stands to reason that the only thing that could hurt a gholam is the medallion. However, in the Rahad when Mat is battling the gholam with said medallion, he only really succeeds in holding it at bay. It would take forever to kill a gholam in this way. But... what if Mat finally gives the medallion up for Elayne to study, and she figures out a way to make something BIG that does the same thing... which the gholam could later be tricked into.... and poof/sizzle/crackle...what's that smell? No more gholam.
You have a good idea. The cuendillar idea that people had before would be to slow of a process, but using the ter'angreal's properties might work. But instead of a trap, couldn't you just make a sword or knife ter'angreal with those properties. It would be far more easily used and if you stab it through him and held it there, he would be incapacitated. The trap idea just seems to easy to dodge for it to work. And if one thing goes wrong, someone could get hurt. Whereas using the blade, you at least have a form of defense if it doesn't work.
Oh, I am preening now. Somebody finally said I had a good idea, even if it was a little off-base. :) :)
Jak... the sword or other knife is a better method. I didn't consider the possibility/probability of the trap failing... Geez, with all the things I don't consider, I'm beginning to wonder how I've made it to be this old! :)
What if the gholams are only immune to one side of the OP? The male gholam we've seen is immune to female side of the power as is Mat's medallion. However, I don't recall seeing how either responds to a male channelling.
I think female gholams were mentioned as well. Maybe those are the ones which are immune to male channelling while the males are immune to females.
Would you ever have the chance to stab the Gholam with this theoretical knife? He seemed awfully hard to reach. Didn't the medallion just fall against the gholam by happenstance?
I'm thinking something of a net ter'angreal like the medallion. Throw a net on the gholoam. Or use a person (Mat) as bait, and then have the room sealed with a fine net of this stuff. Mat lures the gholam in, leaves through a slit left in the net, then closes the slit. Then just tighten the net and byebye gholam.
Now I'm not saying it would be easy, but there are several very good swordsman in the story who could stab the Gholam: Lan, Rand, Mat(throwing knives), maybe Aram. I'm not saying it would be easy, it just seems like with a trap like that, if they saw it everyone one would be toast. Granted the idea I just saw on the previous post would work better than some of the others I've read, it still seems like something could go wrong. And don't the properties need to actually be on some material, he might see the metal or whatever you use and know its a trap. You would have to invert the weave or use the mirrors of myst(whatever its called, I've forgotten off the top of my head). It just seem like it would be far more complicated. And the more complicated a plan is, the less likely it is to work(Murphy's Law).
Sorry to say this folks but i think that the Gholam wasnt afraid because it has never encountered the TP before. This would explain why it was so curious about the man with the medallion would it not? As to whether or not it could defeat Shadar Haran i think Shadar Haran would win because it is clever not simply created to kill.
can gholams travel through portal stones?..if so..lure him to a stone..travel with him..and leave his arse in another mirror world
"What if the gholams are only immune to one side of the OP? The male gholam we've seen is immune to female side of the power as is Mat's medallion. However, I don't recall seeing how either responds to a male channelling.
I think female gholams were mentioned as well. Maybe those are the ones which are immune to male channelling while the males are immune to females."
That wouldn't make any sense, why would they bother making a weapon in the AOL like that. You have to remember that in that time males and females ALWAYS worked together and if it worked that way the Gholam wouldn't have survived long enough to be causing trouble now.
I read the part from Calandor about time moving differently in a stasis box. Time moves either faster or slower. This sounds much like the passing of time in the world of dreams or the terangreal like the rings in rhuidean or the arcs in the white tower or even in finnland
Interesting could a gholam escape from the world of dreams if it were trapped in there for example when it leaped at a male channeler that starts to travel and rips a hole in the pattern. I remember Rand meeting Nynaeve with a chained moggy when he was following Rahvin. He was in the world of dreams then
Why would the gholam be given abilities to reach telaranrhiod if he doesn't need it. We haven't seen evidence either way, but I think we would have seen it used by now. To me, it follows the same rules as say a myrradael. So it needs to travel through a gateway like everyone else. But it would be a good way to lose a gholam if he's chasing you.
No not abilities. What I meant is that it could probably not escape on its own.
It would probably wreac havoc there, poor heroes of the horn and dreamers
any dreamwalker of moderate skill could kill a gholam in TAR. Imagine a vat of acid, or a ... iono gholam eater. Or if you dont care to kill it, just avoid it forever.
just as with mat's ter'angreal, while the gholam cannot be touched with the one power, objects around them can, and stuff can be chucked at it. just pick the ground he's standing on, boulders recks all of it and just dump the gholam into a vat of molten metal or a floating globe of super-hot iron and tirn it to heartstone \ cuendillar. however one fact remains - you have to be actively hunting the gholam for this, not much one can do when attacked except to run. also, if it is possible to lure a gholam into tel'aran'rhiod ( world of dreams ) he could easily be destroyed there, just push him into a world where he doesn't exist ( as ishmael tried to do with rand in book 3 ) as just turn him into something else, as rahvin tried to do with rand - neither of these 2 require the one power and hence the gholam has no defences for them.
I realize that this is slightly off-topic, but I've been thinking about the discussion of how to kill the gholam... I don't have KoD on me at the moment, but during the discussion of Deathgates, don't we get mention of the fact that Shadowspawn can't survive a trip through a Traveling gateway? (My friend has my book, so it may be a while before I could look it up.) It doesn't have to cut them up, but something about the trip through the hole/singularity in the Pattern kills them if I recall correctly. Makes sense to me, otherwise the Forsaken would have just dropped hordes of Trollocs into major urban areas via gateways and the forces of Light would have had no chance...
Back to my point--since we've largely determined that the gholam both qualifies as Shadowspawn and could pass through a gateway without unraveling it, wouldn't the best tactic be to trick or force it through a gateway? How about opening one under its feet? Or right in front of you as it dives at you? Also, what implications does this have for using Traveling to get away from gholam?
Another point I thought of was that even if it could survive the trip through the gateway, why not create the largish, hollow proverbial "cuendillar box" ahead of time and open a gateway and drop the gholam into it?
Just idle speculation...
in reply to kuma, while its known that gholam were created by the shadow, its not been confirmed whether they are actually alive or ter'angreal of some form, ( there's a theory about this somewhere ) so travelling through a gateway might not kill them. however creating a cuendillar box and dropping the gholam into it sounds good except that someone could just as easily get the gholam out. What is needed is a solution to destroy it and according to me, tel'aran'rhiod is the best way to get rid of it.
**its not been confirmed whether they are actually alive or ter'angreal of some form**
Well, they have to eat, and they die of old age, so I would say actually alive is a pretty safe bet.
I thought we had already settled that the gholam are included among the Shadowspawn, and are indeed alive rather than ter'angreal (as Anubis says, becuase it has to eat and has a lifespan) And as far as the cuendillar box goes, you only have to hide it in the box long enough for it to starve. Shouldn't be too difficult.
just because the gholam drinks blood, doesn't mean its alive. blood might be an energy source since it has nothing to do with the one or true power.
Is it stated that the Nym don't eat, and live forever? I find no mention either way in Eye of the World or Shadow Rising. The Gholam never things "when I was a man" so it probably was never human. I would think the Gholam has more in comman with the Nym -- it was created with whatever genetic material, and made to use (in this case stop the use of) the OP.
Firstly I have to agree with Danny that there are some right doozies of hair brained theories in this one and I didn't read through all of it.
Firstly the Gholam are shadouspawn made by Aginor, the Jumara (worms) in the blight are their larval stage. I don't think these (jumara) are immune to the one power just hard to kill. Whatever turned the jumara into Gholam has been lost so no more can be made. Seeing as all other shadowspawn are made using the one power it stands to reason that the Gholam were too.
The Gholam could be immune to the true power. The forsaken were scared of it even when they had free access to the True Power. I'm sure they would risk a few saa to save their life. Of course the Gholam do tend to sneak up and not give you a chance to prepare.
There is also no proof that the Gholam cannot be killed. Just because it never came across something that could hurt it before doesn't mean it can't be hurt. For all we know it could be allergic to peanuts and go into anaphalatic shock on contact. If a boxer has never been beaten it does not mean he cannot be beaten. They could probably be chopped into pieces if there were enough people chopping. I lava pit would probably finish it off, no one has done it to this particular Gholam so it doesn't know that this can hurt it. The silver in mats medallion could be what burned it rather that the medallions properties so a silver sword could have its head off in double quick time. People are making far too many assumptions on what can or cannot kill it. Sure it is one tough bugger but not invincible.
Rand with LTT knowledge used deathgates on the shadowspawn and siad that gatewatys kill shadowspawn. He did not say trollocs, he said shadowspawn, all shadowspawn, probably including gray men, drakhar etc. why not a Gholam?
Another thing bugging me about this thread is the number of people assuming the foxes and snakes made Mat's medallion. It is far more likely that the former owner is now a nice harness being worn by a well dressed fox.
**Firstly the Gholam are shadouspawn made by Aginor, the Jumara (worms) in the blight are their larval stage. I don't think these (jumara) are immune to the one power just hard to kill. Whatever turned the jumara into Gholam has been lost so no more can be made. Seeing as all other shadowspawn are made using the one power it stands to reason that the Gholam were too.**
what makes you think the jumara worms have anything whatsoever to do with gholams?
could you provide the quotes you are using to make this assumption pls?
from what i read, the jumara are supposed to be worms, but they transform into something else... like a catapillar into a butterfly... sho-wings perhaps? some sort of dragon-like creature? a big ass bug? who knows, but why would you think they would 'transform' into gholams?
there is a direct quote about a SPECIFIC number of gholams created: 6, 3 male and 3 female... why would jumara turn into gholam when it appears they were created directly? 6 was considered 'enough'
***TITLE: Crown of Swords, CHAPTER: 39 - Promises to Keep
Suppressing a shiver, he pressed on. The women, all of them, watched him, almost not appearing to blink. He would not let them see him shiver. "There were only six gholam madeďż˝three male and three female; at least, that's what they look like. Apparently even the Forsaken were a little uneasy about them. Or maybe they just decided six was enough. ***
i think the jumara are some other form of shadowspawn (independant from the gholams)& that were able to transform from wormy larva's to whatever their pupil form was. im betting this was a conditional process that was completely natural (weather conditions, temp, fed after midnight, whatever...)
as for gateway, rand states shadowspawn cannot pass thru the gate
the exact quote is as follows:
***KOD chap 19 (vows) pg 413
"...Those gateways. Where did we send those Trollocs? I just copied your weave exactly."
"It doesn't matter where they went," Rand said absently. His attention was focued on Lews Therin. The madman, the bloody voice in his head, drew a little deeper on the Power. Let go, man. "SHADOWSPAWN CAN'T SURVIVE PASSING THROUGH A GATEWAY."***(emphasis mine)
Gholam = shadowspawn = cant go thru it!
doesnt matter if you want to wave the 'its a living ter'angreal' arguement around all you want, it is listed in the BWB as a SHADOWSPAWN:
***TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time, CHAPTER: Aginor
Ishar Morrad was one of the first of the Forsaken to go over to the Shadow, probably some time in the first three decades of the Collapse. After becoming Forsaken, he dedicated his energies to the creation of ďż˝Shadowspawnďż˝, living constructs designed to serve the shadow. His handiwork first appeared in the form of Trollocs, creatures made from combinations of human and animal substance. It is certain that the creation of Trollocs began well before the War of Power, because they appeared in very large numbers in the very first days. Prolific breeders, the Trollocs formed the bulk of the Shadowďż˝s armies by the end of the war. Soon these were followed by other creations, some of which still exist, such as the Drakhar, and some known only through historical records, such as the Gholam and the jumara.***
so even if it is a living ter'angreal it is STILL a shadow spawn and wont be passing thru a gateway. which is really irrelevant in any case, the thread was started about whether or not it is immune to the TP.
i think it is immune to both OP and TP...but when you come down to it, logically why should it be immune to the TP? why would Aginor even think to make it immune to the TP? after all, only teh chosen (& poss dreadlords) in that day and time had access to the TP, and while they might battle eachother and jockey for position, it was still a weapon created to kill AS... not the chosen/TP weilders. why would he even think to include the TP in its immunity?
I certainly think Gholam are living creatures of some kind.
I'm more interested in the location of the existing Gholam, Gholamses?. I bet there is at least one in the blight. If all (6) are not around, why not? Also, why were (6) made, and for what ultimate purpose? And if Aginor made them, does he have ultimate control over them, or is there some kind of secret method of destroying them, or is there some kind of terrangrial that controls them? Also, can Gholams mate? I bet a baby Gholam would be cute. Perhaps Aginor created them so that he could eventually defeat all of the other Forsaken, and he could be Nes Blis!
I wonder if Gholam can be "transported" to another world using the portal stones. This might effectively get rid of them. Maybe that is where they are, now. I am also wondering what would happen to a Gholem entering the Ways (if it even could) and what would happen if it came in contact with Machin Shin. Maybe its passage through the ways, or storage somewhere in the ways, has caused the damage in the Ways over time.
Lastly, if I was a Chosen One and had a few to spare, I think it would be interesting to pit one up against another, say in the Two Rivers or in the Tower. Or for fun, I would command one to hang out in the White Tower and wander aimlessly through the halls... what fun!
I have not read this thread completely, as I think there are some crazy theories. As for myself, I believe that the Gholam is a creature that was created with the One Power and that it is made of the One Power. Its energy is self-contained somehow (once it is complete) and it cannot be harmed by the one power, because it is of that power. This gives it many properties such as its fluidity and its ability not to be harmed directly by the power. It is also the reason that Matt's medallion affects it, since Matt's medallion protects him from the power. Perhaps it is made of both Saider and Saidin. Anyway, my vote is that it was made with the power and therefore not effected by it, as it just absorbs and then releases that energy. As a living creature, though, it would be subject to old age, and hence it would be placed in a stasis box. I think we might find more in the Tower of G. where time has a different effect.
I believe that Gholam is a shadow spawn that was made with the one power and that it is alive and has a finite lifetime. So, it would need to be kept in a stasis box to bring to this age. Since it is made of the one power it is mutable and not affected directly by the one power. However, since Matt's medallion cancels the effects of the one power, it can also harm the gholam. I wonder if the Avendasora trees would affect a gholam.
The Gholam is clearly the only shadowspawn that will act on its own behalf. It is immune to the OP and the TP (toilet paper, lol) and thus has nothing to fear as punishment as it is also by far the most superior of all shadowspawn.
We know the Gholam acts on its own behalf because as it watches every leave for the farm at Ebou Dar it feels where the gateway opens, "some where to the north", and yet still decides to follow Mat from Ebou Dar instead. That many women who could channel would not be hard for it to find and rather than complete its mission to prevent the bowl of winds being used by Elayne and Nyneave stays behind and awaits Mat's departure, though where it hid until this happened is unknown as there is no mention of it at all. That is until Thom hears of a man a few towns back with his throat cut out only there isn't enough blood, indicated the gholam's persuit.
We also see the hatred it has toward Mat after being hurt by first time ever by him. This is the first time we see into a shadowspawns mind to suggest it has indepence other than Shadar Haran. Myrdraal follow orders and command trollocs, trollocs feel fear, and bloodlust. worms feel nothing but hunger. Out of all shadowspawn the Gholam and Shadar Haran are the only to not have a one track mind.
I agree with the OP that the golams are imune to the TP.
I am wondering if people can be made 'angreal. It seems logical, because all creatures are touched by the one power, so, unless the weaves have some negative affect on humans, it should be possible. If that is true, gholams could be a ter'angreal.
I think, though, that the Gholam is easy enough to kill. Drop it in molten lava/metal, seal it in a cave then reinforce the surrounding wall with metal and cuendillar, drown it in deap water by feeding it to a shark/orca/squid!
The catch is that an angreal or anything of that nature is most of the time an object, not a human being. If you think about it logically, if a person puts on a one power disguise they aren't called ter'angreal. So the effect might be possible, but it would just be called a defense, not creating a ter'angreal.
There is one being that can be used like an angreal. Remeber that Myrdraal can be used tochannel through, particularly during converting a channeler to the dark side. So it is plausable that a Gholam could act in the same manner or even as ter'angreal
I believe that the Gholom was created with the True Power, possibly through some sort of cuendillar ter'angreal (due to the fact that cuendillar is the only other substance that is impervious to the OP) which is why it has a tingling itch. And OF COURSE the Gholam isn't immune to the True Power. Why would Aginor (or whichever Chosen scientist) create something that could kill him? The Chosen, except for Ishmael/Moridin, use the TP only in instances of great need, can you think of a greater need than a Gholam bearing down on you?
I don't know if anyone else has said this and I doubt it will happen this way, but I believe the way to encase a gholam in cuendillar would be this: First, draw the gholam into a room with walls made of iron and 1 door which must be made of iron. The bait would either have to be a channeler who can make a gateway to get away or else there must be a gateway already present for the bait to escape. Use fire (you would need several channelers) to weld it together at the seam as Egwene prepares her weave for cuendillar. As soon as the seam is made whole Egwene can turn the whole thing into cuendillar and then it's over. I can't imagine Mr. Jordan would do that as it lacks the intensity of a confrontation between Mat and the gholam (perhaps the confrontation will be in Finnland?), but theorizing about the ways of making something happen in a completely fictional environment is why we are all here isn't it?
My theory on the Golam is that Male golam were created to kill female channelers and that the female golam were created to kill male channelers. the Golam mat faced has not been challenged by a male channeler yet and maybe its the male channelers he hides from because saidin can harm him like saidar could harm a female golam possibly ?
"My theory on the Golam is that Male golam were created to kill female channelers and that the female golam were created to kill male channelers. the Golam mat faced has not been challenged by a male channeler yet and maybe its the male channelers he hides from because saidin can harm him like saidar could harm a female golam possibly ?"
Sorry, but from what Mat says about the gholam (which he learned from Birgitte), the gholam are immune to the One Power, both saidar and saidin:
TITLE: Crown of Swords, CHAPTER: 39 - Promises to Keep
Mat gathered patience; he hoped he could find enough. Maybe if he used both hands and both feet. "Gholam were created in the middle of the War of the Power, during the Age of Legends," he began from the beginning. Almost from the beginning of what Birgitte had told him. He turned, facing each group of women as he spoke. Burn him if he was going to let one bunch think they were more important. Or that he was bloody pleading with them. Especially since he was. "They were made to assassinate Aes Sedai. No other reason. To kill people who could channel. The One Power won't help you; the Power won't touch a gholam. In fact, they can sense the ability to channel, if they're within, say, fifty paces of you. They can feel the power in you, too. You won't know the gholam until it's too late. They look just like anybody else. On the outside. Inside.... gholam have no bones; they can squeeze themselves under a door. And they're strong enough to rip a door off steel hinges with one hand." Or rip out a throat. Light, he should have let Nalesean stay in bed.
Note that there is no distinction made in the quote between female and male gholam. Also, Mat says that the One Power won't touch them - there's no distinction made between saidar and saidin - all of them appear to be immune to both halves the One Power.
We also have verification from the gholam's own thoughts:
TITLE: Path of Daggers, CHAPTER: 2 - Unweaving
The gholam stepped into the room cautiously, nostrils already twitching with the scent of still hot blood. The livid burn on its cheek seemed like a live coal. The gholam appeared to be merely a slender man, a little taller than average in this time, yet it had never encountered anything that could harm it. Until that man with the medallion. What might have been smile or snarl bared its teeth. Curious, it peered around the room, but there was nothing beyond the crushed corpse on the floor tiles. And a ... feel ... of something. Not the One Power, but something that made it ... itch, if not quite in the same way. Curiosity had brought it here. Parts of the grill over the window were crushed, pulling the whole thing loose at the sides. The gholam seemed to remember something that made it itch in that manner, yet so much of what it recalled was fogged and dim. The world had changed, as it seemed, in the blink of an eye. There had been a world of war and killing on a huge scale, with weapons that reached across miles, across thousands of miles, and then there was . . . this. But the gholam had not changed. It was still the most dangerous weapon of all.
There seems to be a lot of wild assumptions flying around:
Example: Gholam never encountered anything that could hurt it, therefore it is invulnerable to
Similar fallacy: Residues of the True Power made gholam itch, therefore gholam is immune from it.
I haven't encountered anything that managed to kill me... does that mean I can't be killed?
Just because it hasn't directly encountered something that could hurt it does not mean it cannot be hurt by whatever it encountered. IE: I've never encountered a gun that hurt me, which simply means I haven't been shot - it does not mean I'm immune from guns.
One example mentioned before is balefire. This is a weapon that needs to be aimed at a target. Given a gholam's natural agility, it is probable that no one actually managed to hit it with a balefire beam before. Sure, it may have encountered balefire... but it hasn't been hurt by it. Therefore, while the statement "gholam has never been hurt by balefire " is true, it is not the same as the statement "gholam is immune to balefire".
Now, whether or not balefire can hurt gholam because of it's ability to melt OP flows is up to debate, but we can't simply dismiss it out of hand because of the statement "gholam has never encountered anything that could harm it."
The same goes with TP - we simply can't dismiss it out of hand just because of that statement.
It is unknown what gholams are made of, but we do know that it isn't invulnerable thanks to Matt's medallion. Just as Matt was killed by the secondary effects of a lightning bolt, the gholam may be suseptable to secondary effects created by OP too, although he's probably more resistant given he isn't as fragile as a human body.
Any indirect effects generated by the OP that creates enough energy to disrupt the gholam's body should theoretically be able to kill it. Tactical nukes brought up jokingly before would certainly do it - the energy generated by a nuclear blast would convert any matter from its solid state to plasma after all >.>
Who says terrible and yet unseen weaves of the OP can't generate secondary effects like extreme heat, extreme cold (0 kelvin, then shatter it), implosion, extreme gravitic effect...etc. that would take out a gholam?
I see what your saying, but I find it hard to believe that the gholam has never run into anything like that before. I think an AS would at least have tried exreme heat to cold in a dire situation. And we aren't arguing that a gholam can't dodge balefire; but seriously, do you think that "it can't be destroyed by the OP" could ever be translated to "it can be killed by balefire, but it can dodge it." That just seems like a large leap in wording there. And as for the TP, why would he not have ever been introduced to it, if he was used as an assassin by the DO and the forsaken. I give it pretty good odds that it encountered and black AS in the AoL who would have tried that if threatened by one. Besides, there would have to be something to keep it in check, or else it would be useless as a weapon/assassin for the employer. I realize that a lot of this is assumption, but if you read between the lines of what Birgitte says about them, its not a big assumption in my opinion.
Who says terrible and yet unseen weaves of the OP can't generate secondary effects like extreme heat, extreme cold (0 kelvin, then shatter it), implosion, extreme gravitic effect...etc. that would take out a gholam?
But we have seen a weave that creates a powerful secondary effect. When Rand was chasing Rahvin in Caemlyn we see Rand make a weave that freezes everything in the area that he weaves.
I have several theories of how to kill a gholem with the power. With the newly rediscovered tricks in knife of dreams we see plenty of things that could potentially be used to kill one. The roses of death seem fitting. It creates a sort of explosion that kills anything too close to it. Deathgates or any kind of gateway would kill it as it is a shadowspawn and Rand states that all shadowspawn die if they go through a gateway. The arrows of fire seem to be another good answer as the arrows do not look to be targeting things, just created from the hands and then thrown. An accurately thrown fireball should be able to at least hurt it as well.
So it seems there are many ways for a channeler to damage or kill gholems in indirect ways. My favorite is if a jet of flame shot from underground and consumed it, that would be awesome.
I may be reading too much into this, but the story does specifically mention that three "male" and three "female" gholams were made- perhaps the male gholam has invulnerability with regards to saidar, but not saidin. The gholam attacked only female channelers, and was a male... Therefore, I believe that the male gholams were created to fight women and the females to fight men, probably commissioned by male and female Forsaken, respectively.
Every indication is that all gholam are immune to the One Power, whether it's saidar or saidin. Their "gender" is only appearance - that much is made clear - so therefore there is no good reason to assume that they are only immune to one half of the Power, especially when the gholam's thoughts indicate that it is immune to both.
Also, to answer a question that Anubis asked a long time ago - RJ said that the gholam are not immortal:
Q: Are gholam immortal?
Q: Because they were inâ€¦a box?
RJ: Stasis box. A stasis box is an artifact of the Age of Legends, and is in effect an artificial vacuole. Time does not move inside a stasis box. It is a thing devised for storing things that are fragile or that might decay in some way.
Q: So the gholam can die by a natural death?
RJ: I donâ€™t know if youâ€™d call it a natural death, but yeah, they can decay. You saw what happened with Matâ€™s medallion â€“ it just fell on the gholamâ€™s cheek and branded it.
Q: But do they die of old age?
RJ: Yeah, they do, but they live a little longer than youâ€™d like them to, let me tell you (laughter) â€“ not as long as an Aes Sedai, but...not as long as an Aes Sedai that hasnâ€™t sworn the Three Oaths, anywayâ€¦not as long as a strong Aes Sedai that hasnâ€™t sworn the Three Oaths.
Also, RJ makes no distinction between the halves of the One Power, so again, no reason to assume that they are not immune to both.
I know that the gender is mentioned as being "appearance only" (and I think that that's a direct quote, but from which book I can't remember), but my thought was that the appearance might be used to indicate which gholam was immune to which half of the power- like the orange decaf indicators on coffee pots. The gholam's thoughts seem to indicate total Power immunity, but it is likely that, if I am correct, a male would never be sent to fight saidin-wielders and vice versa. It might not actually know.
I don't know that the gholam would be immune to the TP. I mean think about it. What exactly is the TP? It's derived from the dark lord, and consequently a part of him. Most likely it is his source of power as well, and doesn't it just sound silly that the dark one himself, if able to fully manifest his power, couldn't destroy a gholam? I mean, the comment that he can't be destroyed by lava I don't quite believe. If not a being of flesh, he at least does have a maleable exterior - you can stab it. So any soft material you stick in an extremely hot environment will burn or melt. I'm guessing he'll react the same as any other material in existence. Otherwise you might as well run with it and say you can drop him in the heart of a star and he'll be fine. I mean, really?
As far as stasis boxes, didn't sammael use one on a chic and she was fine? Ok been a long time since I logged in here or read the book, so I'll leave the research to you guys, but the whatshisface lightcloak darkfriend guy who sammael visited had a visitor, which sammael "froze" for the duration of his visit, and "unfroze" when he left through the gateway. What true source power have you heard of that manifests like that? Nothing comes to mind for me other than that type of ward. So presumably it can be done to food, roses, people, tapestries, etc with no problems other than the fact that saidar and saidin have been failing lately.
So, in conclusion, stasis boxes work on people, and gholam are not immune to the TP. *weighs with hands" Dark Lord / Gholam...which is greater? Com'on. Bad ass big daddy villian can take on and kill a gholam. >< sheesh!
I've been racking my brains trying to figure out WHY the Shadow would ever intentionally create something they had no way of killing. After a bit of thought I think I've figured out how they would have defended themselves from Gholams even with them being immune to both the One and True Power.
Some people were discussing how you could kill a Gholam using a gateway; sending it to the bottom of the ocean or in one case an infinite loop to kill it with G Forces. If I'm not mistaken Gholams are Shadowspawn and as we learn from Rand's Deathgates in KoD Shadowspawn can't survive passing through a gateway, this explains why Ishamael had Trollocs use the ways to get to The Two Rivers in tEotW instead of just using gateways. So I think that was the Shadow's trump card against the Gholam.
Now some may argue that if the Forsaken had a way of killing Gholams they wouldn't be uneasy about them but keep in mind the only way to get a Gholam through a gateway to kill it would be opening it under them, risking the chance of it moving out of the way those bastards are fast, or tricking it through one since there is no way of pushing it through.
Something that just occurred to me.
Ter'angreal are made using the one power. We can only assume mats was also.
Mats Ter'angreal hurts Gholam.
What if you were to use whatever weave was used to make the Ter'angreal, on the gholam.
Im not sure about Balefire, because in many cases the usual rules seem not to apply to it. I cant remember if its mentioned to have been used on a gholam, or what the result is.