ain/Dark One/ Creator
by Tyr: 2003-06-01 | 3 out of 10 (4 votes)
Padan Fain now exists outside of the Pattern, but can't he still be hurt? And if so, would killing the Dark One, and the Creator be as easy as walking up and stabbing them? We know that something outside the pattern can be embodied, else Fain wouldn't exist, and if so couldn't the DO and the Creator just be people, perhaps not living in any particular world, but living none the less?
The method of traveling using the TP is ripping wholes in the pattern. Couldn't this be a key to getting to the DO, or Creator? Or even just mae the pattern unstable? Think of the pattern as a piece of material that will not allow water to pass through it. If you tear at it, you can patch it, but if you keep tearing, eventually the will be gaps in patching. At this point the water (anything inside the pattern) could leak through. Wouldn't then entire worlds be not tied to the pattern?
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1
Tamyrlin: 2003-06-04
It all depends on how we interpret the idea that Fain is outside the Pattern. The way I understand it is, Fain is outside the control of the Pattern. This would suggest that his "string", his soul, his thread, is not under the control of the Pattern, like everyone's elses is. The Pattern can't force him one way or the other. But he still exists within the Pattern that is being woven. The DO and Creator exist outside the Pattern, and live independently of it outside of it. Can Fain step outside of the Pattern and survive? I don't know. His body is still human, or something like unto human, and it can die. We are given no indication that the DO or Creator in RJ's books are in human form. Just some thoughts.
2
Weird Harold: 2003-06-04
Tyr asserts, "Padan Fain now exists outside of the Pattern,.."
I don't recall anything in the books or any interview that says Padan Fain is "outside of the Pattern."
I do recall statements that he, "is no longer part of the pattern" which is not quite the same thing semantically.
Padan Fain is still a Part of the "Tapestry of Life," he just isn't a purposeful part of it.
He's like a stray thread blown into a loom that disrupts the pattern being woven, or like a stray thread at the pocket corners of new shirt.
both are connected to or within the fabric, but not a part of it or completely outside of it.
3
Lewin: 2003-06-14
Read your answer Tamyrlin and it got me thinking. You discribed Fain as a thread in the weave which can no longer be controlled. But can it be changed by the whirl, believed Loial desribed this better somewhere in the early books, that a Ta'vearen makes with the pattern? You cant really imagin a whirl with a single thread running right across it being totally unaffected, now can you?
4
Murrin: 2003-09-23
Fain can be affected still, in some ways - for example, when he attacked Rand it could only have been the Pattern (or ta'veren) influencing things for his scratch to cross the old wound perfectly.
5
IkilledAsmodean: 2004-07-05
I disagree, Murrin. I'm not so sure that the pattern or Taverenness had anyhtign to do wiht that.
There's a very real possibility that Fain simply struck Rand where he knew him to be weak. After all, Fain was in Falme when Rand took the wound, and it's not as though it's very secret at this point. Half the world seems to know about it, why wouldn't Fain (even if he hadn't been in the area when it was inflicted). Not necesarily pattern at all.
6
Traveller: 2005-07-20
I agree with Murray, but what I want to know is how this will affect the story. Since the \pattern is something that repeats itself, Fain must now be an outside operator, so can he be somehow used to help seal the DO's prison? Okay, maybe thats going a bit far, but it could have some interesting effects.
7
clocklotion: 2005-07-20
I dont know but does anybody see an allusion to the Matrix with Padan Fain being Agent Smith? It seems to similar a former minion of the dark that grows out of its masters control. Padan Fain was just a hound for the DO and now he's become something else entirely. Agent Smith was just a agent for the Matrix and then he became too powerful and was OUTSIDE the matrix's contorl. All that RJ needs to do to complete the lameness is have Rand and Fain go head to head which is acutally not that far fetched...
8
lurk: 2005-07-21
Can anyone remind me where in the books or in what interview it is stated that Fain is out of control of the pattern. Otherwise he can stil be a thread with a purpose, probably with a higher factor of randomness to it
9
Callandor: 2005-07-21
**Can anyone remind me where in the books or in what interview it is stated that Fain is out of control of the pattern. Otherwise he can stil be a thread with a purpose, probably with a higher factor of randomness to it**
Here it is:
**Question: Has the Padan Fain/Mordeth character been present in previous Ages, or is he unique to this particular Age?
RJ: He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.**
10
JakOShadows: 2005-07-22
clocklotion: the same thing happens in LotR. Frodo and Sam and the good guys, Suaron is the bad guy, and then there's the gholam. Even though he's not as powerful as fain and has a bit closer friendship for Frodo, he is outside the good guy/bad guy theme of the whole series. Not one else has shades of gray except for him. It's kind of similar in a way.
11
therobotbadger: 2005-07-23
**the same thing happens in LotR. Frodo and Sam and the good guys, Suaron is the bad guy, and then there's the gholam. Even though he's not as powerful as fain and has a bit closer friendship for Frodo, he is outside the good guy/bad guy theme of the whole series. Not one else has shades of gray except for him. It's kind of similar in a way. **
I wouldn't say that Gollum is a "shade of gray" in the white:black::good:evil schema. It's more that he has both a white side and a black side between which he must chose. None of his actions are morally ambiguous, they can just happen for different reasons depending on which personality is dominant.
This, however, is off topic. I wouldn't say that Fain having "unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern" (as this is so far the only quote we have to work with) puts him on a level with the Creator or the DO. But let's examine those two seperately.
Fain vs. Creator: Fain was created by the Creator just like everything else in the Pattern, and created with a thread and physical body and all. Plus, no one in Randland seems to have any direct experience of/with the Creator (unless you count the OP, which is plausable). Nothing, at least, like the experience of/with the DO, such as SPEAKING IN ALL CAPS and black cords. I don't have an exact quote, but I remember an interview in which someone asked if there was religion in Randland, to which RJ responding something to the effect of, "No, they don't need it. Religion is about faith without evidence and the people of Randland have evidence," which I assume to mean the OP. No, the Creator does not seem to be an entity that could be affected by his creations, at least not from what we've seen so far.
Fain vs. DO: This one's a whole different ballgame. We know that the DO can affect the world, and the Pattern (i.e. the weather, black cords) but also that he can affect things the people of Randland seem not to be able to affect (i.e. tainting saidin) [but this assumes that Rand didn't really affect saidin itself by removing the taint, he only affected the taint, which I know is a debated topic]. We know the DO is held outside the Pattern from Demandred at the Pit of Doom: "Here he could sense the Bore, the hole drilled through so long ago to where the Great Lord had lain imprisoned since the moment of Creation.... Physically, this place was no closer to the Bore than any other in the world, but here there was a thinness in the Pattern that allowed it to be sensed." LoC, Prolouge, p. 15 HC. So if the DO is outside the Pattern, but can affect the Pattern due to the Bore, it seems probable that something inside the Pattern could affect him. The question is, How?
In order to answer this and some other questions, I think a few more questions need to be asked about the nature of the DO, and a little about the Creator:
1. Does the DO have a physical body?
Is he inside some sort of physical prison? If so, where is it? Why is it no closer to the Pattern at one place than another (which to me suggests higher-dimensional space)? Why doesn't he age (presumably)? If he has no body, what is the nature of his prison?
2. Did the Creator create the DO, or do they both exist as equal-but-opposites?
To me it seems that the Creator and DO have always been, together, and when the Creator decided to make his Creation, he somehow blocked the DO from it, or "imprisoned" him. My reasoning is that the DO intends to "remake" the Wheel, indicating he has some Creationary power of his own. But if the DO's on the level of the Creator, why doesn't the Creator affect the Pattern like the DO does? Does he even have the ability? Could there be a Bore drilled to the Creator? (That seems unlikely given the nature of the Bore. Mieren drilled it trying to seek a source of Power usable by both men and women and found the TP and the DO, so for a Bore to be drilled to the Creator there seems to need to be a block between the Pattern and the OP.)
Just some thinking points that may or may not bear on this issue. To tell the truth, I think the fact that Fain is "unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed," is far more interesting than the fact that he has "side-stepped the Pattern." If this battle between Dragon and DO keeps happening through enough iterations, eventually small random elements like Fain will have huge effects on the outcomes. I'm interested to see what effect he has in the end.
12
Ishamael: 2005-07-24
"To me it seems that the Creator and DO have always been, together, and when the Creator decided to make his Creation, he somehow blocked the DO from it, or "imprisoned" him. My reasoning is that the DO intends to "remake" the Wheel, indicating he has some Creationary power of his own. But if the DO's on the level of the Creator, why doesn't the Creator affect the Pattern like the DO does? Does he even have the ability? Could there be a Bore drilled to the Creator? (That seems unlikely given the nature of the Bore. Mieren drilled it trying to seek a source of Power usable by both men and women and found the TP and the DO, so for a Bore to be drilled to the Creator there seems to need to be a block between the Pattern and the OP.)"
The Dark One can affect the pattern because he is Imprisoned in it..the Creator is outside the pattern..kinda like the DO is stuck in the center of a ball of thread..and playing with the threads near the core so he can re-thread his own ball...
13
Allchaos: 2007-04-27
Reading RJ's quote, where it says that Fain has unwittingly "side-stepped the pattern", I took that to say he has not gone down the path the pattern had destined him to take. In another topic, Callandor argued that everything is predestined and the Light will win because the pattern has already seen to that outcome. (I believe that's what he said, anyone feel free to correct me)
However, maybe as Fain is now a wildcard and not controlled by the pattern (at least in the sense that his destiny is now something completly different than planned), it might shift the pattern's plan a little. Rand is destined to face the Dark One at the last battle, but with Fain not controlled by the pattern, maybe that isn't so certain as it used to be.
Just a few thoughts.
