hardcore fan freaks of the wheel of time
Theoryland Resources
WoT Interview Search
Search the most comprehensive database of interviews and book signings from Robert Jordan, Brandon Sanderson and the rest of Team Jordan.
Wheel of Time News
An Hour With Harriet
2012-04-30: I had the great pleasure of speaking with Harriet McDougal Rigney about her life. She's an amazing talent and person and it will take you less than an hour to agree.
The Bell Tolls
2012-04-24: Some thoughts I had during JordanCon4 and the upcoming conclusion of "The Wheel of Time."
Theoryland Community
Members: 7653
Logged In (0):
Newest Members:johnroserking, petermorris, johnadanbvv, AndrewHB, jofwu, Salemcat1, Dhakatimesnews, amazingz, Sasooner, Hasib123,
Theoryland Tweets
Theories
Recent Comments
Last ten comments at Theoryland.
The Bore is in Tel’aran’rhiodIf DO was able to alter reality with power...by Amaentes
Callandor's PurposeJust wanted to comment on something in reg...by Joram
Mat's luck is caused by the daggerSorry to necro this thread, but I was just...by Joram
The Real SlayerI was just thinking that since the Finns l...by jimbop79
Verin Compelled AlannaThis was alluded to early on, but let me s...by jimbop79
When the Dark One winsAlthough the books are over here is what m...by pjrobertson
Moghedien Raises the DeadThis has a lot of spoilers, so please, if ...by NaeblisSunshine
Mat & the Horn of ValereWow, found a link to this while purging my...by shaihalud
Breaking the SealsNow see, Rand isn't the only one who wants...by MMustafa
Nakomi's Soul Is BrownIn the epilogue as rand is carrying Moridins ...by Waxer
Recent Theories
Last ten theories at Theoryland.
Padan Fain, Roommates With the Dark Oneby aNewAge
The Real Slayerby Cabadrin
How the Bore Will Be Sealedby Tremalking
The Bore is in Tel’aran’rhiodby Great Lord of the Dark
Callandor's Purposeby RealAshaman
Rand and the True Powerby Zombie Sammael
Caemlyn's Battleby 1eyedfool
Moghedien Raises the Deadby Truthless
Breaking the Sealsby Kamaul
Let me die forever!by Kamaul
Home | Index | Archives | Help
ain's demise
by jason wolfbrother: 2003-01-19 | Not yet rated
Previous Categories: Padan Fain's Future
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2003-01-19
In a time where some are predicting Fain to become the DO (highly unlikely of course), you are actually painting Fain as a less powerful character. I think you may have something. You are also indirectly making another theory; his powers come directly from the evil of SL (I am assuming that is what you mean). I agree with you, his powers must be diminished. Will he try to go off and create a new Shadar Logoth?
Darren: 2003-01-19
I agree with jason. Fain started out as pathetic, and he should end on the same note. He has overreached himself. However, he still has the dagger with him, so SL wasn't completely destroyed, since Mordeth was the instigator of the Aridhol--->Shadar Logoth thing in the first place.
There is also still the Black Wind, alive and well.
Anubis: 2003-01-19
I partially disagree. I was under the impression that fain was completely free of shadar lagoth, and that there was no connection anymore. Also there is to consider that fain is the only person outside of the pattern. I think that he is going to be the wild card that will determine the last battle. I think that in the end his hatred of the DO will outweigh his hatred of rand.
Callandor: 2003-01-19
Just for kicks but if you wanted to say that Fain needs to make a new Shadar Logoth, maybe he is in So Harbor?
jason wolfbrother: 2003-01-19
I agree that Fain is still a power to be reckoned with. However he did draw sustenance for Shadar Logoth even though he had freed himself from the city walls. When Fain joined with Mordeth to free Mordeth from Aridhol he SLOWLY got more powers. He even remarked to himself that even he didn't know how these new powers worked. But with the loss of Aridhol to sustain him he will SLOWLY lose the powers he had and revert to just plain Fain, a darkfriend who used to be able scare a Fade but who now is nothing. As for the Black Wind I still think that it is totally separate for Mashadar. Yes, Fain was unharmed by it but I think that was just a side affect of the joining of Mordeth and Fain.
jason wolfbrother: 2003-01-19
It took quite a few years to bring about the demise of Aridhol. I don't think Fain is worried about creating a new Shadar Logoth. He is still focused on making Rand, and to a lesser extent Mat and Perrin, pay for what was done to him. He is consumed by his hatred of these three.
Daishan: 2003-01-20
Well, in concurrence with Anubis I would like to re-mention the fact that Fain is outside the Pattern. Maybe the destruction of Shadar Logoth has no effect on him whatsoever. And it does appear from the stories that Mordeth is what caused SL, not someone who was created from it. I'm not saying I think Fain will create a new SL, I just think that his powers are separate from it. I see SL as his "child" if you will.
Tigraine: 2003-01-21
I would assume that as the Black Wind is a product of the Taint on the Ways, and Mashadar is the anti-Taint, so to speak (remember, it violently attacked the Trollocs in book one as soon as they arrived, and it takes a Myrdraal to convince Trollocs to enter the city itself), it would be reasonable to see Machin Shin flee Fain. He has the power of Mashadar in him, and can thusly end Machin Shin if he knew how.
Question is, will Rand consider this and cleanse the Ways as well?
Darren: 2003-01-21
No.
Machin Shin is a product of the vociferous efforts of the last male Aes Sedai to keep the Ways FREE of the taint, which is why it in many ways mirrors Mashadar. We see the Black Wind essentially working for Fain in the Great Hunt.
Dedicated: 2003-01-23
I don't know if I agree with the theory that Fain's power will lessen after Shadar Logoth's destruction. Remember that it was Mordeth who poisoned Shadar Logoth. And the current proud owner of Mordeth's soul is one Padan Fain. Fain also mentions infecting people with the S.L. evil (Elaida and Pedron Niall are examples)I don't think Elaida (or anyone Fain has touched with his evil) will recover now that S.L. is gone. They were touched by Mordeth/Fain. The point is that Mordeth was the reason for S.L. demise and it is his evil soul, not the city itself that gives Fain his unusual powers.
jason wolfbrother: 2003-01-31
But we haven't heard from Fain since the destruction of Shadar Logoth. We really don't know what has happened to him or his powers. He used those powers against Niall and Elaida long ago. The last we see him use his powers is in Far Madding when he creates the illusion to confuse Rand. What I am suggesting is that Mordeth brought the evil to Aridhol but with time he got trapped in the city and the city became infused with that evil. Mordeth existed at the expense of the city unless he could convince someone to take the "treasure" outside the city walls. When Fain unwillingly removed Mordeth from the city Mordeth himself was free (although now in Fain's body) but I think the evil that had infused Aridhol was still trapped there. Remember Rand revisits Shadar Logoth when he battles Sammael and Mashadar is still there. So obviously there is still evil in the city and the city is still cursed. I believe that Mordeth now draws his power from Shadar Logoth and not the other way around like before he was "free". With the destruction he has no backup power to rely on and will lose what he had gained.
jayenigma: 2003-04-01
The Black Wind and Mashadar are unrelated. Machin Shin didn't effect Fain because Fain's uber-powerfulness and super-weirdness scared it away.
As for Fain and Shadar Logoth... no go. Among other things, Fain has been too important a villain (he basically got the party started, among other things) to degenerate like that. Plus, there's the fact that Fain draws his power from an evil born of greed.
I think I've stumbled on a new idea. Maybe that's the actual source of Fain's power - greed. Maybe that's why he wiped out the Tinkers. The Way of the Leaf, if Fain draws his power from people's greed, would be a major threat to him. It would also mean that he wouldn't lose power because of Shadar Logoth's destruction - Mazrim Taim and High Lady Suroth alone would be able to sustain him. :)
HunterofTrollocs: 2003-04-03
Fain is most definetly Mordeth, the advisor to the ruler of Aridhol. The dagger that ate holes in Mat's head, ate everything (well, almost everything) in Fain's head, and replaced it with Mordeth himself. I belive that with SL destroyed and gone, he will scurry off to some other major powerful city, and let that city internally eat at itself.
araqyl: 2003-04-24
Fain is, and always will be at the core, Fain. Yes, he has merged with Mordeth somehow (hence the shifts in manner and accent commented on so often) and he has gained some 'tricks', but he is not tied to any physical location as the source of his power - as we saw he doesn't actually need the dagger, even - it just makes him feel 'complete'. Also, he still definitely retains the memories and personality of Fain - hence his hatred of Rand.
Fain will undoubtedly die, but not because SL is gone. See the predictions for my idea on who will kill Fain... ;}
Jes: 2003-05-18
I think Perrin will be the one to kill Fain, because Fain was the one who actually killed Perrin's family. I don't know whether or not Perrin will realize it or not (he currently thinks it was Trollocs), but I anticipate Fain and Perrin will have a confrontation and Fain will boast about the Two Rivers and Perrin's family. I think having Perrin kill him fits RJ's idea of justice.
Callandor: 2003-05-19
Actually, if it would be more type of justice it would be like Fain being trapped in the Bore like the Forsaken were, and forever knowing Rand hasnt died at his hands. Perrin killing Fain is more like vengence not justice. Look at how Egwene attackes Renna in TGH and how Nynaeve tells her its vengence not justice.
juitzhead: 2003-05-19
Just from memory, i remember Mori saying something along the lines that even one pebble carried from SL could infect someone. Now, since Mordeth/Fain is free from SL i assume that he can infect anything he wants, especially since Fain is carrying the Dagger. The destruction of SL has no effect on Mordeth/Fain.
Black Wind and Mashadar came up at different times. I think it was you Callandor that pointed out that they appeared about 1000 years apart.
Wolfblade: 2003-05-20
I just throwing this out there. I know I do this alot she please cope. Anyway I believe that Fain will consumed by his hate and vengeance. It will consume if to the point where his new powers don't even matter because he will be so blinded with hatred that he won't use them to his advantage.
Mairashda: 2003-05-20
Callandor, i like your idea of having Fain trapped in the bore: it does seem to mirror the situation with Rand's wounds too- two kinds of evil fighting each other and all that. maybe this will be part of the winning stroke: Fain ends up in the bore and distracts the dark one to the point that it may be sealed successfully...
Jes: 2003-05-20
To Callandor:
I get your point about vengence vs justice, but I guess a lot of my argument hinges on the fact that only Fain (and we readers) know that Fain was responsible for killing Perrin's family when he lost his temper. If they never have a confrontation, no one else will ever know. Maybe it doesn't matter, but I hate loose threads.
Callandor: 2003-05-20
First off, I myself dont believe in the Fain in the Bore theory, I just used it as a counter to the Perrin killing Fain theory.
Second, I think Perrin would most likely kill Slayer not Fain.
Mairashda: 2003-05-21
on a second thought having Fain end up in the bore would be rather "lord of the rings" an end. one should only carry the gollum-parallele so far...
spearmaiden: 2003-07-02
As far as I can see there are 3 possibilities, one of which no one has mentioned as far as I can tell.
1) Fain is weakened because he was drawing power from Shadar Logoth
2) Fain has completely broken free of Shadar Logoth and its destruction does not affect him
But what if...
3) Fain is STRENGHTHENED by the destruction of Shadar Logoth
I, for one, do not think he will be unchanged (possibility 2) because I think he still has an attatchment to Shadar Logoth. Why? If you look at the early books, he is obsessed with regaining his/Mat's dagger. It is HIS and he is drawn to it and goes to great lengths to get it back. Obviously the connection between him and even that small part of Shadar Logoth still existed even though Mordeth was no longer geographically bound to Shadar Logoth. He felt incomplete without it. So I would assume that the same connection, only stronger, would still have existed between Fain and the city as a whole. For that reason, I do not think that Fain could escape the destruction of Shadar Logoth without some change.
People have given lots of good reasons why Fain's power might be diminished, but what if the opposite were true? What if, by destroying Shadar Logoth, Rand severed whatever connection Fain had with the city, severing that need, and whatever part of his power had been associated with Shadar Logoth is now completely free to roam around with Fain.
Certainly worth considering, anyway.
Shadow Bane: 2003-07-02
this is a question i have pondered for some time-
What makes the dagger so important?
Out of the thousands of objects weapons etc. in the treasure trove at Shadar Logoth why does the dagger make Fain "feel complete"? What is the significance? Any ideas im fresh out.
Callandor: 2003-07-02
The dagger is the only thing technically remaining of SL. Fain was already free of it once he entered and Mordeth tried to talk his soul and then he left. He should remain unchanged in my opinion, because he still has the dagger and is already free.
rubbernilly: 2003-07-02
But, Callandor, that doesn't answer the reason why the dagger was important in the mean time between when Fain went through SL and when Rand destroyed SL in WH.
It was in this time that Fain attained the dagger and said that he felt "complete" by it.
Not that I am sure that the dagger was important for any other reason than that it was the only thing that was willingly taken (for greed's sake) beyond the walls of the ruined city, but your explanation of how it was, in fact, not so important to Fain does not really explain things so well, Callandor.
Callandor: 2003-07-03
We dont know why Fain wanted the dagger. Maybe Mordeath wanted it, who knows. Im saying he isnt going to be weakend by the destruction of SL because he still has the dagger.
Lorddragonwolf: 2003-09-15
fain still has the daggar that come from SL. the one that started to turn matt. So there is still a part of the evil from SL that is not inside fain but in an object that if he loses could turn others to the evil of SL
Particleman: 2003-09-16
If the dagger was Mordeth's before he got to Aridhol that may be why it is so important to him. It may be all in his mind as being the only thing that is really his. The dagger may have no power in and of itself (other than the corruption of SL greed of course) but if Mordeth believes it is the source of his power..and has had 1000 years? to firm that belief...then, to him, it is his sorce of power and is therefore something he needs to be complete
bayoegb: 2003-12-15
Fain is, and always will be at the core, Fain. Yes, he has merged with Mordeth somehow (hence the shifts in manner and accent commented on so often) and he has gained some 'tricks', but he is not tied to any physical location as the source of his power - as we saw he doesn't actually need the dagger, even - it just makes him feel 'complete'. Also, he still definitely retains the memories and personality of Fain - hence his hatred of Rand.
Fain will undoubtedly die, but not because SL is gone. See the predictions for my idea on who will kill Fain... ;}, by araqyl
I like how you state that the dagger makes fain complete because it proves that he will attempt to make another Shadar Logoth and that is how he will probably die, if you don't believe that fain will try to remake Shadar Logoth then you should keep reading because
1. The dagger made him complete and it was just a small item from Shadar Logoth so imagine how he would feel if he was in Shadar Logoth, also now that Shadar Logoth is gone he will probably not feel complete any more
2. Look at the great lengths that fain went through to keep his dagger and those lengths also involve him sneaking into the White Tower to retrieve his dagger, so without Shadar Logoth he will not feel complete and try to make another Shadar Logoth
I think that a place where fain may try to remake Shadar Logoth is the Seacnchan homeland where Mat will probably be and that is how he will meet his demise
dragonsceptor: 2004-01-19
Reading this theory got me thinking about the knife. I decided to go back to TEOTHW and reread the part where Mat get's the knife. I found something that was very intersting but not conclusive. I think the sequence of events is very important when taken in context with the dialouge. Mat is rummaging through a pile of treasure that it has been described as including gem encrusted daggers and swords. They just told Mordeth that they will have to come back tomorrow with the others. Mordeth says, "'No. That is ...' Panting, Mordeth shook his head as if he could not decide. 'Take what you want. Except...Except...' suddenly Rand realized what had been nagging at him about the man. The scatter torches in the hallway had given each of them a ring of shadows, just as the torches in the treasure room did. Only...He was so shocked he said it out loud. 'You don't have a shadow.' A goblet fell from Mat's hand with a cresh. Mordeth nodded, and for the first time his fleshy eyelids opended all the way. HIs sleek face suddenly appeared pinched and hungry. 'So. He stood straighter, seeming taller. 'It is decided.'
I always took this quote to mean that it was decided because they had discovered who he was. I think I was wrong. So we know Mat was rooting around in the treasure and dropped a goblet. Mordeth freaks out and the next we hear about Mat, he "...peered around the side of a treasure pile, clutching a dagger snatched from above."
What if the "It has been decided." was because Mat grabbed the dagger? This would mean that the dagger itself is important for some reason besides just being something from SL. I think it is but I don't know why.
Callandor: 2004-01-19
**What if the "It has been decided." was because Mat grabbed the dagger? This would mean that the dagger itself is important for some reason besides just being something from SL. I think it is but I don't know why.**
It most likely was, but why would Mordeth tell them to take anything, EXCEPT the Dagger, if it was that important? Wouldn't that be the first thing he asked them to take?
ranman38: 2004-01-20
Mordeth needs the dagger for some reason. He did not want them to have it, but the second that Mat touched it, "It was decided." Just touching the dagger is enough that it taints the toucher. It cannot be laid back down at that point, as we know it took some major Aes Sedainess to get it from him.
brother of Battles: 2004-08-27
I think there is/was some kind of connection between SL and Fain for the simple reason of the dagger. Everybody knows what the dagger is capable of, besides the corruption. It kills with just a simple cut. We know this from Falme when Mat kills the soldier, and from Far Madding when Fain kills the traitor/dark friend Ashaman. But, I can't remember in which book, but Fain nicks himself with the dagger and it was the same as any other knife cut. A little blood and that was it.
Now, the dagger carries the taint from SL and so does Fain. That is where Fain gets his powers. The dagger might be the only thing left from SL, but I don't think it will be enough to sustain the level at which Fains powers are at.
Plus, now that SL is destroyed, who is to say that the dagger won't revert back to a normal dagger?
Callandor: 2004-08-29
**But, I can't remember in which book, but Fain nicks himself with the dagger and it was the same as any other knife cut. A little blood and that was it.**
**TITLE: The Fires of Heaven
CHATPER: 19 - Memories
Silently he snarled at himself. Fool. Playing the Aes Sedai's game, groveling for them, then one moment of anger to ruin it all. *Sheathing the dagger, he nicked himself, and licked the wound before sticking the weapon under his coat.* He was not at all what she thought. He had been a Darkfriend once, but he was beyond that, now. Beyond it, above it. Something different. Something more. If she managed to communicated with one of the Forsaken before he could dispose of her... Better not to try. No time to find the Horn of Valere now. There were followers awaiting him outside the city. They should still be waiting. He had put fear into them. He hoped some of the humans were still alive.**
Seems obvious Fain is invulnerable to the dagger. After all, acid added to acid doesn't corrode. The source of corruption, being corrupted... doesn't seem like it would work at all.
**Now, the dagger carries the taint from SL and so does Fain. That is where Fain gets his powers.**
Partly. He also gets some of his power from the corruption by the Dark One. After all, before he even entered Shadar Logoth, he was broken and remade by the Dark One.
**Plus, now that SL is destroyed, who is to say that the dagger won't revert back to a normal dagger?**
Rand still has his Shadar Logoth wound; and in fact both his wounds have hurt MORE since the destruction of Shadar Logoth.
haertchen: 2005-03-02
I think the reason Fain is so thoroughly attatched to the dagger is because it is what stimulated his transition to whatever he is now. When he was allowed to escape from the dungeon, he took the dagger from Mat because it was a convienient piece of Shadar Logoth. With the dagger, he became powerful enough to take control of the party of Darkfriends. While we can speculate about the mechanical details of this system, it seems likely that this transition, with the dagger spurring him on, is what bonded him so thouroughly to that one piece of Shadar Logoth. It seems reasonable that any other piece would have done as well, but that's the one that did it.
WaterSeeker: 2005-03-10
It could be that fain became bonded to the dagger during "The Great Hunt" Simmilar to how Mat became bonded to it. Mat had the dagger for several months during which it became vital that he had it, during TGH the effect on his health is clearly shown. Fain most likely had the dagger for a longer period and because of the fact that he had merged with Mordeth the effect of the dagger would have differences, his personality didn't seem to change the same way Mat's had for one, but his ablity to sence it when near and because it makes him feel to become complete are similar to the way Mat was connected to it
maharbry: 2005-03-12
I just started the series again about a week ago, but as I remember, isnt fain corrupted by more than the dagger? I seem to remember him being touched and corrupted by some sort of shadow spawn after the dagger. If Im wrong, sorry, I read CoT in the first 3 days it was out and havent read the books since. I think there is a quote along the lines of him becoming something else altogether, not shadow, or mordeth. If this is true, wouldnt the demise of SL make no difference to Fain? This is jsut my opinion based on 1 and a half year old memory. So feel free to correct me, if Im wrong.
Zepher: 2005-07-22
To this I must agree as the syptoms are the same as SL. On a side note, I just read in WH that Mat believes he saw a ghollum in SL back in EOTW. Just curious ifanyone else had noticed this....
hfel: 2005-09-28
I think Callandor is correct that Fain is in So Habor, but not necessarily because he NEEDS to make a new Shader Logoth. I think he WAS injured by the destruction of SL, and hence is reduced to hiding in a warehouse and eating cats, but Mordeth's powers do survive in Fain and are still sufficient to begin turning So Habor into another SL. The suspicion and murders, the ghosts, the grey pall all seem to echo SL. Don't the ghosts also appear not only in Far Madding but also in The Great Hunt, when Rand sees the slaughter in the deserted house in the village Fain/Mordeth has passed through.
Callandor: 2005-09-29
**I think Callandor is correct that Fain is in So Habor, but not necessarily because he NEEDS to make a new Shader Logoth. I think he WAS injured by the destruction of SL, and hence is reduced to hiding in a warehouse and eating cats, but Mordeth's powers do survive in Fain and are still sufficient to begin turning So Habor into another SL.**
1. I haven't said Fain is in So Habor -- I'm firmly against the idea ;)
2. No, Jordan has stated that Fain was not effected by the destruction of Shadar Logoth. He was already independant of it long before.
**Don't the ghosts also appear not only in Far Madding but also in The Great Hunt, when Rand sees the slaughter in the deserted house in the village Fain/Mordeth has passed through.**
1. The "ghost" that Rand fights are most likely an illusion of some kind by Fain, since he was hurt when the illusions were.
2. The people in the abandoned hut in The Great Hunt, were the cause of a channeling weave almost assuredly made by Lanfear to get Rand to channel more:
**TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 10 - The Hunt Begins
Suddenly he was tearing at . . . something. He did not know what, or how. Cobwebs made of steel. Moonbeams carved from stone. They crumbled at his touch, but he knew he had not touched anything. They shriveled and melted with the heat that surged through him, heat like a forge fire, heat like the world burning, heat like-**
Obviously, it was a channeling web that Rand destroyed with saidin. Probably meant to simply be destroyed at the lightest touch, since Lanfear just wanted him to channel more and more.