1
Tamyrlin: 2003-04-18
I agree. We have no reason that Mat will be involved beyond the fact that he has visited that land and he likes to play the game. He knows the Old Tongue and he would be a handy person but is Thom aware of his experiences there? Would he know to ask him? I don't believe so.
2
Anubis: 2003-04-19
im up in the air on this one. i think its possible that mat could go, but it would be more thoms thing. mat would feel compelled to help a woman and a friend. but then again mat does have his own stuff, and he probably wont have opportunity. and then theres the option of no finnland, but i think its pretty clear that moirine needs outside help from somthing, and if it were the shadow then she would be dead or turned by now, so the only otherworldly power left is the finns.
i would kill to know what all is in that letter. its got to be something that is imminantly important, because thom is all the sudden completely obsessed with the thing.
3
Rand-althor: 2003-04-19
"Another dream. Mat throwing dice with blood streaming down his face, the wide brim of his hat pulled low so she could not see his wound, while Thom Merrilin put his hand into a fire to draw out the small blue stone that now dangled on Moiraine's forehead." Egwene, tFoH ch.15, p.300-1
This connects them. But I agree that Mat won't be the main part, but obviously he will be an important part. I think that Thom and Perrin will meet, and maybe Mat will either be there or hear them or something, and force them to let him go with them so he can "settle the score" with the finns. But a question, if you have already had the 3 questions answered/3 requests granted then is it possable to get back there at all? Maybe thats how Mat looses the eye, reentering the finns land again could make them mad after all.
4
Callandor: 2003-04-19
Seems to me that people are just including too many people along if Mat and Thom go into Finnland to save Moiraine. There isnt any need for Perrin except for a destination because thats the direction Mat seems to be going: North mainly. Olver... not needed at all, Mat knows the rules of Finnland quite good through personal experience and he has played the game before Olver came on to the scene.
A think that might complicate this if mat meets up with Perrin, Mat would most likely realize he could help out tremendously with the rescue of Faile due to his military knowledge (plus I want to see Mat back in action ;-)).
I do think that Thom and Mat will rescue Moiraine however, it is pretty much up to opinion of the person, since there is little evidence to go on, but Thoms letter and Egwenes dreams do give good support of it.
5
WinespringBrother: 2003-04-19
There is more connecting Mat, Thom and Moiraine.
TITLE: Fires of Heaven CHAPTER: 52 - Choices
“More letters?” he said. One bore his name in an elegant hand that he recognized immediately. “From you, Moiraine?” The other carried Thom Merrilin's name. Both had been sealed with blue wax, apparently with her Great Serpent ring, impressed with the image of the snake biting its own tail. “Why write me a letter? And sealed. You've never been afraid to say whatever you wanted to say to my face. If I ever forgot it, Aviendha has been reminding me that I'm only flesh and blood.”
TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 52 - Choices
Moiraine went on more brightly, even briskly. “Seals ensure privacy. That contains things I wish you to think on; not now; when you have time for thinking. As for Thom's letter, I know no safer hands than yours in which to place it. Give it to him when you see him again.
Mat was there when Moiraine gave the letter to Rand to be forwarded to Thom. And when Mat gave Thom the letter, Thom told Mat it was from a woman who he thought he left to die. Also Mat was there when Moiraine disappeared. Whether Thom knows that or not is another story.
TITLE: Lord of Chaos,CHAPTER: 33 - Courage to Strengthen
Still, it was no concern of his. He turned the letter over in his hands. Thom's name was written in a feminine hand; the seal was one he did not recognize, a spreading tree topped by a crown. What noblewoman would be writing to a leathery old man Tike Thorn? Not his concern either. Tossing the letter on the table, he picked up his pipe and pouch. "Olver," he said, stuffing the bowl with tabac, "ask Talmanes, Nalesean and Daerid to come to me."
The letter must have had a magic seal though, since it was originally imprinted with a ring, and became a tree/crown. Maybe that is what confused Mat.
6
cow defender: 2003-04-20
One thing about Mat getting to the Finns is that he realizes that the only way to beat the snakes and foxes game is by breaking the rules. He has a way to break all of the rules of Finnland- he's got the steel, and he can get some 'sticks' from that illuminator girl, and he's already been through each doorway once.
7
Anubis: 2003-04-20
i never noticed that... did RJ make a mistake? or is there another letter... BAH! too much thought, since there is only one important letter that we know of for sure, im just gonna assume there the same.
and about too many people being thrown into the mix, i have a strong feeling that our heroes will be assembeling soon. they need to be together to fight there major battles, ala TDR
8
Pips: 2003-04-20
One thing;
If they try and BREAK into the 'Finn's tower, do you really think that they will be givn a translator? I don't think they'll be able to tell a hostage 'Finn what they want if one of them doesn't speak the old tounge. Plus, there's just been too much forshadowing hinting that Mat will go back to the Tower (Come on, even after he leaves Rhuidean he says he'll use the 'finns' "gift" on them one day. In RJ's world, that's major foreshadowing) for nothing at all to happen. Mat will be meeting up with Perrin soon, also.
9
Dorindha: 2003-04-21
I am not denying it that Mat could be involved, and there is some good thinking that he might be, but I wrote this theory mainly as a counter-argument to the myriad theories that seem to take it as read that he will be involved, if not instrumental, in rescuing Moiraine. I have yet to see anything to convince me that he will be involved that goes beyond loose conjecture.
10
Hydraan Sedai: 2003-04-23
I saw a theory just before; Someone showed that Perrin and Matrim will meet up. Thom is with Matrim, Birgitte is with Matrim. Perrin and Birgitte have seen the Tower of Ghenjei is Tel'aran'rhiod, and Birgitte knows some things about it. Maybe Perrin doesn't even need to meet up with Matrim, but since Thom hasn't been doing anything about finding Moiraine, it seems he needs a catalyst.
What was Aludra's ((Illuminator)) riddle? Something about bell's? Blacksmith's work with metal, and bell's are made from metal. What if Perrin knows the answer to Aludra's riddle? Matrim learns how to make fireworks. Thom watches Matrim and Olver plays "Snakes and Foxes", remembers the quote before each game of "Snakes and Foxes" ((The bit with Fire)). Matrim then teaches Thom how to make fireworks. Thom now has Fire, Music, Steel. ((I can't remember the fourth bit; Sheesh; I should go to the doctor's and check that I have a memory ;-))).
Domon is also with Matrim, Thom, Birgitte, Olver, Perrin. Domon knows about a Black Tower; He has gone past it a fair few times, and he knows the story of how no-one can get in. Well, put them all together, and someone must figure out that there is a way to save Moiraine. And Matrim doesn't have to go with Thom; Matrim and Perrin will be busy avoiding Seekers, saving Rand, yada yada yada. Maybe Juilin will help Thom; Maybe. He could just go as far as Whitebridge, and wait....
11
Dorindha: 2003-04-23
This is the kind of theory I'm saying that there isn't any proof for, I'm not saying it's wrong, just that there seems to be a lot of people taking it as read that the rescue of Moiraine is going to be a big team effort.
Ps: Birgitte is actually in Caemlyn with Elayne, not with Mat. I do think there is a strong chance Mat and Perrin are going to meet up soon though
12
Hydraan Sedai: 2003-04-24
*Chuckle*
I just remembered that bit after I hit "Submit" =P But it still works; Perrin comes along, he figures out the Riddle, everybody figures out the way to Moiraine, and Thom goes on his own....
13
Korell: 2003-04-24
just a slight note Perrin i doubt...however it is possible...will have anything to do with the making of cannons because he is a blacksmith not a bell founder they are 2 diffrent professions however you never know with RJ...also i do belive they will meet up and they will have to save Rand...as for the Tower of Genji i think that Perrin might have somthing to do with the info on that but as to who will help Thom i have no idea whatsoever however if i were gonna take somone it would be Mat for sure but then i know what he knows and Thom most likly does not.
14
solomonrex: 2003-04-24
Korell: I can't agree. Perrin has just given up the axe... again. In the past, that indicates that he will soon be back in the smithy, and what for? I'm sure bell-making is not too easy compared to smithing, but if a taveren blacksmith can't do it, who can? And he's ultimately making cannon, not bells. He'll have no problem making weapons to fight the DO- remember the two times he's really bothered by the axe was after killing/threatening regular humans- whitecloaks and aiel.
15
forge: 2003-04-25
perrin giving up the axe for the forge is not to be taken so literally. i dont believe that he is actually required to make something ( i mean, what did he make last time, a device to open barrels?). its just perrin trying to escape duty/destiny/killing people for a simpler life.
16
: 2005-01-07
There are ALOT of subtle hints that Mat will go back.
a. The Tower of Ghenjei is an entirely different entrance, so Mat CAN go in again.
b. Moiraine mentioned that it was difficult for her to understand the dialect the Finns spoke. So therefore somebody like Thom - or somebody who would need a translator, like Rand had - might miss out on a VERY FINE print in their bargaining, something that Mat will be able to see easily (because he speaks the Old Tongue so fluently.) And we know that the Finns include fine lines (like when the guide told Mat "come. I can take you to where you can find what you WANT.")
c. Mat mentioned that he wanted to go into the Tower, and showed considerable interest in it when Domon pointed it out in Eye of the World.
d. Mat wants revenge on them, and has yet to get it. Also, when I was reading a description of Mat somehow, somebody mentioned that Mat wears the scarf around his neck because he's ASHAMED of the scar, not because it doesn't look nice. It would make sense, considering how he got it. We've also never been told why he wore the scarf, other than to hide it. What I'm getting at is that maybe he needs to get that revenge in order to be proud of that scar (he mentioned once that he was proud of all his scars, because it was a way of avoiding Aes Sedai. A little strange that he would hide that one, especially when he constantly likes to "play on women's sympathy.")
e. Mat is the only one who knows you're supposed to pay a price for what you ask for. The Finns do NOT tell you you need to pay a price. Another point: Neither Thom nor Perrin know that you're not supposed to ask or speak anything that involves the Shadow. In short, Mat knows the rules - nobody else does.
f. Mat is heavily linked with Aludra, who has invented matches. I've always believed that slipping into the doorframe with iron, fire, and music is a lot harder than they let on - I think they can detect it (unless you can channel, like Rand did.) What better way to hide iron than a weapon made from another dimension that can be a form of iron (the ashandarei, if you have't guessed), matches (who would expect fire in a stick?)
g. Mat's broken the rules every time he went in the doorframe. The first time, he forced out a fourth question. The second time, he didn't pay the price. We all know that in order to defeat the snakes and foxes (which Mat says the Finns remind him of, and even mentioned how many "bad memories" losing to the snakes or foxes in the game brought up) to defeat them you have to BREAK THE RULES. Who better than somebody who's succeeded twice?
h. Mat wants revenge on the Finns and he wants to free Moiraine (or will want to :P) Remember what Perrin said when Berelain suggested paying the Shaido for Faile back? Perrin said that they hurt Faile, and he will not pay them for it. Mat hates the Finns, so he will, more or less "trick" them into giving him the better end of the bargain. If there is a bargain, to those who believe he will lose an eye doing so.
i. Whenever something "tickles" someone's memory, they ALWAYS find out later on what that was (in Randland, anyway.) Mat wondered why they asked if he had any fire, iron, or music? "Why would they care if I had an orchestra in my pocket and a smithy on my back?" When he was playing with Olver, and they were reciting the standard phrase - courage to strengthen... - and Mat said that it tugged at something in his memory. Birgitte did NOT tell Perrin the link between the game and the Tower - it was heavily implied, but impossible for Perrin to decipher when he'd never been to the doorframe or recently played the game. Mat had.
j. When Egwene took her Accepted test, she brought in a ter'angreal and left in the same room with the other ter'angreal. Well. Mat WEARS a ter'angreal - imagine how offguard that will put the Finns, like clay in Mat's hands to do with what he wants? Two ta'veren shook the walls to their core. What would a ta'veren do with a ter'angreal made by their own hands? Just a thought, but it gives Mat power over the Finns, power which will force the Finns to do what Mat wants (like when he forced them to answer his fourth question.)
Anybody who says that there is no reference to Mat going back there is sadly mistaken. I firmly believe that Thom will NOT go inside the dimension - Mat will go inside, free Moiraine, while Thom takes Moiraine out of the Tower and to safety. (Mat will stay behind and I think he will destroy the entire Tower in doing so.)
17
damane: 2005-01-10
Mat knows how to speak the Old Tongue. Perrin can not go in because he will be utterly useless against the Finns. Not only does he not speak the Old Tongue (and it's a very rough dialect, keep in mind) but he doesn't know the rules or anything else. Mat knows the Old Tongue and all it's idioms and phrases. When you're screwing somebody over, you need to know what the heck they're saying. So Perrin is out for sure. Thom might speak the Old Tongue, but nowhere near as fluently as Mat, and might miss out on a fine line in their "bargaining" or his "demands," and also like Perrin, HE DOESN'T KNOW THE RULES. Mat knows the rules and he knows the consequences - DEATH. SKINNING. SILVER STUDDING. And for that matter, the finns don't say that you need to pay a price - ONLY MAT KNOWS THAT.
And as for Perrin knowing about the Tower of Ghenjei, he KNOWS NOTHING. The link between teh game and the finns are IMPOSSIBLE for Perrin to decipher since he HAS NEVER BEEN INSIDE ANY DOORWAYS. How is he supposed to know that they look like snakes and foxes, when MAT was the one who mentioned that? Frankly I think the only erason Birgitte told Perrin that was so WE would know there was a link.
Another point I want to bring up is that Mat KNOWS where the Tower is. Domon told him when they were fleeing Shadar Logoth, and I think all it takes is for his to remember that flight (maybe a little reminiscing between him and Domon...)
My theory is that Mat will be the one to free Moiraine. Because we know that three people can go in at once and not see each other (Mat, Rand, and Moiraine) I doubt that Thom can run off and still meet up with Mat later. And plus Birgitte said it was near impossible to leave the Tower of Ghenjei (even in the "world of men") so Mat and Thom can't go running around and leaving left and right.
I think Mat will deal with the Finns and clearing the way for Thom to rescue Moiraine.
18
Dorindha: 2005-08-16
While it's true that Perrin knows nothing about the FInns, he does know the existance of the Tower of Genji - all Mat knows about it is that it is a metal tower near the river - why should he conect that with Finnalnd? I never said Perrin would be involved, just that he has the missing piece of information.
The main thing that underpins my theory, is that is is Thom who Egwene sees pulling Moiraine's blue stone out of fire, and that while Mat might give Thom some clues, he won't actually be involved.
On the other hand, I did write this theory a long time ago, and I'm less sure of it now, especially as Thom and Mat are together. However, I still think that Thom will be the main protagonist in any rescue, not Mat, though he may have more involvement that I indicate in this theory.
