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J vs Frank Herbert

by lythe84: 2003-05-29 | Not yet rated

Previous Categories: Miscellaneous

I know authors often take ideas from each other in their stories...but I read both Frank Herbert DUNE and the Wheel of Time and I can't help it but see a lot of similarities. I could be just picking bones here, but it seems like RJ took quite a few ideas from DUNE. Here's some of the similarities I noticed, some of them aren't as strong as others, but together they seem very convincing evidence to me:

* Note: This will make no sense to you unless you also have read DUNE or at least watched the mini-series

1) The Bene Gessrits like the Aes Sedai, are predominantly women and are widely feared by the public. Men calls the Bene Gessrits "witches", which RJ have also used when men are describing Aes Sedai. They both have heavy influence in politics and they both possess super-human powers. While the Aes Sedais uses the One Power, the Bene Gessrits have the power of truth telling and they are superbly trained fighters.

2) Rand goes to the Aiel Waste, which is a desert wasteland, to recruit the Aiels, fierce and deadly fighters. Like wise, Paul Muadib recruited the Fremens, fierce and deadly fighters from the desert planet Arrakis.

3) Both Paul and Rand's coming were prophecized- hailing the coming of great changes.

4) The OP gives Rand power while slowly killing him(at least before he cleaned it). Similarly, the spice that Paul consumes to see the future is a poison as well- should he be deprived of spice he will die.

theres probably more, but these are the only example I can think up of right now. I suggest you read DUNE if u havn't already, you'll see what I mean.

* IF you know more examples or have evidence to counter me, please let me known.

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Comments

Tamyrlin: 2003-06-03

Over the last five years I have seen many comparisons. Tolkien and Jordan is the one most commonly cited, but I have seen people discuss these. I am sure Jordan's writing is influenced by many authors. It is interesting to see these listed out, and I would be interested in any additional similarities, but I think this is rather common in all fiction.

anderwarrick: 2003-06-03

I have noticed similarities with lots of different fantasy and science fiction books. Most authors, I think get ideas from each other, twisting it to one degree or another to keep from breaking the copyright law. Like, I bet you could find some stuff to compare to that DUNE stuff. Most authors take little or big things from other authors. 4 example, I've been writing fantasy books(none got published yet) but, my ideas were mostly taken from other books with a twist from me. IMO that is basically all that makes fantasy and science fiction books from being almost exactly alike.

Rand-althor: 2003-06-03

Almost all fantasy that is considered good by the general public has a few things in common. One is the inevitable death of the main character, or some form of near death experience, ie spice deprivation, OP, Frodo on Mt.Doom. Also there is almost always some form of army for the good guys, almost always outnubered, but having some massive advantage. (gondor/rohan, defending is easyer than attacking, and they never had to win, only delay, Aiel, smarter and faster than trollocs, Fremen, underestimated by everyone) and in most falntisy there is some form of foshadowing or prophecy hailing the main charactor. The one thing that really sets Dune, WoT, and a few others, is the presence of a political force with a agenda that nobody else knows about, being AS or BG

Weird Harold: 2003-06-03

The similarities between WOT and Dune are due to common roots rather than a direct descent -- their cousins at best.

The Aes Sedai are based on Medieval and Oriental Convents, as are the Bene Gesserit.

The Aiel are based in part on Arabic Nomads, as are the Fremen. They Aiel, however, have many more roots thanthe Fremen do -- there are traces of Amerind, Zulu, and Mongol in the traditions and custom of the Aiel not found in the Fremen.

For what it's worth, RJ has done amuch better job of constructing his world and the societies therin than Frank Herbert ever thought of. For one thing, it has remained interesting for more than two and half books. :P

Callandor: 2003-06-03

This for me is the most pointless thing ever. Like its been said all fantasy has some key thing to it that in every single little fanasy book. Its the silliest thing when people say this person copied this person, RJ copied Tolkien or RJ copied Herbert. Well guess what Herbert copied someone else on a few things and so did Tolkien. They all created new ideas and made them, but they used a classical base. Big friggin deal. Its fantasy. Go with the story not with who it MIGHT sound like.

And Shaitan being the DO is also the devil in Dune. ;)

Niall: 2003-06-09

lythe84, I was going to post something similar to this about RJ and a writer named Terry Goodkind. You got there first, but if you would like to read another series that has similarities to tWoT, read the Sword of Truth series. Not that I am using a tWoT website to advertise other series ;)

Khaos: 2004-02-09

I don't think its really fair to call it copying, its basically a case of all these series books belonging to the same genre. That is epic fantasy (or epic sci-fi in Dune's case). Like any other genre you will have crossed paths between different authors you have established character types whcih need to be filled and they are always going to be similarities. Too the genre requires set plot developments which will seem similar to people who read a lot of books in this genre. The hurried journey from your home to begin your quest is a common event in fantasy.

But just as commonly although at first glance things are very similar as the story unfolds the differences become more apparent than the similarities.

Take Eddings Belgariad (which if you haven't read it you should and is actually more similar than either LOTR or Dune)

The character's Mr. Wolf and Thom Merrilin are virtually identical in both behaviour and appearance (including clothing) but as the books progress and you learn about them the characters become very different.

Davian93: 2004-02-09

****Take Eddings Belgariad (which if you haven't read it you should and is actually more similar than either LOTR or Dune)

The character's Mr. Wolf and Thom Merrilin are virtually identical in both behaviour and appearance (including clothing) but as the books progress and you learn about them the characters become very different. ****

A good series. The second five books seemed tacked on but it was a good way for Eddings to make more money. I never really thought of the connection between mr.wolf and Thom before. In Thom's defense, at least he could play an instrument so I'd say he was probably a better all around story teller.

As for authors copying each other. Of course, all epic stories have some common basis. That is why we read all of them. Of course the good guy is going to win in the end, otherwise we probably wouldnt like reading them so much. The only possible exception might be GRRM with his aSoIaF, but he's just a little wacky sometimes. All the authors are basing their stories on a common source of information:our own myths and legends. So naturally there will be a lot of similarities. Now if you want to talk about straight ripping off a characters look to Brooks and Tolkien.

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