1
Tamyrlin: 2003-07-08
I agree with most of what you have written, and I have never noticed some of those properties of the warder bond that Rand exhibits. One thing I would disagree with is the point you mention concerning bonded male channelers not able to be compelled. I wonder if it will turn out that it has more to do with the strength in the OP of the individual than purely a sex/op issue. I don't have any evidence to believe otherwise, and technically, in circles of one man and woman, the man controls the circle...so maybe you are right...something to think about. Does each bonding accentuate the warder benefits more...or do you think there is a limit?
2
rubbernilly: 2003-07-08
But I thought that the bond between Rand, Avi, Elayne, and Min was not a warder bond. It was based more on the Aiel ritual of bonding first sisters.
Elayne, who already had bonded one warder, said that she had to reason out the method of the weaving from the bonding that she and Avi underwent... so it wasn't the same weave at all. It isn't the same sort of bond, and I don't think that Rand is 4 times the warder.
Also, Elayne is still waiting to force Alanna to hand over the Warder bond to her; and she somewhat selfishly relishes the fact that while Avi and Min will share the four-way bond with Rand, she (Elayne) alone will have Rand as her Warder.
I agree that Rand might be demonstrating some of the effects of being a Warder, but I adamantly doubt a heightening of these abilities from him becoming bonded to A, E, and M.
3
Rand-althor: 2003-07-08
You said
"Rand continually senses "filth" until later in the chapter a Grey Man attacks him. LTT even talks about death coming. Rand sensed the Grey Man because of his bond with Alanna. We never hear Rand sensing this kind of filth before the bonding"
I believe in The Dragon Reborn, when they are in the hills, after the attack, Perin goes to talk to rand, and he says something like he could feel them, but they felt so much like the taint that he couldn't tell the difference untill it was too late, so he has felt the "filth" before. Other than that, i agree with the idea that the bonds will save him.
4
Anubis: 2003-07-08
I always attributed rands sensing of shadow spawn to being a channeler. didnt he detect shadowspawn in book 4 in the waste? you may have a point tho, rand does seem to be one beefy guy who dont get much sleep and dont need it. about the healing, usually there is someone around to heal him so we really cant make a judgment.
5
Shadow Bane: 2003-07-08
Rubbernilly-
He is the warder of all 4, elayne used the aiel sister bond to be able to bond them all at the same time even Min who can't channel.
6
Shadow Bane: 2003-07-08
Tamyrlin-
Yeah i think your right, whoever is strongest in the OP would be in control.
Wonder if two bonded males would produce the same effect as Birgitte and Elayne?
7
Callandor: 2003-07-08
**TITLE: Fires of Heaven,CHAPTER: 6 - Gateways
Rand woke in total darkness and lay there beneath his blankets trying to think of what had wakened him. It had been something. Not the dream; he had been teaching Aviendha how to swim, in a pond in the Waterwood back home in the Two Rivers. Something else. Then it came again, like a faint whiff of a foul miasma creeping under the door. Not a smell at all, really; a sense of otherness, but that was, how it felt. Rank, like something dead a week in stagnant water. It faded again, but not all the way this time.**
This is when Rand is about to destroy the Darkhounds in Rhuidean. And there are others in earlier books.
8
WinespringBrother: 2003-07-09
Regarding the compulsion via the bonding: Non-black sisters probably won't do that, since the weave is forbidden. But then again, Verin uses it, so who knows.
There is a quote (from Rahvin IIRC) that said from his POV that he couldn't be compelled while holding saidin (in a meeting with Graendal and Lanfear I think). So maybe that's what Shadow Bane was referring to. Although Graendal at one point compelled Moghedien and Cyndane at the same time, and they were both holding the power (in POD).
9
heronblade: 2003-07-09
Ely used the aiel sister bond to link the three women but when she linked it to rand she 'twisted' it into the warder bond so they are bonded.
10
The Leveler: 2003-07-09
When Alanna talked about trying to compel Rand she compared it to trying to uproot an oak tree with her bare hands. That doesn't mean she failed. Just that she had to work really hard or was only partially sucessful. Although I wonder what would happen if all the holders or Rand's bond tried to compell him to do the same thing?
11
Shadow Bane: 2003-07-09
About magnifying the effects of the bond, yes and no. I think because Rand is bonded by 4 women he will have all of the warder abilities to there fullest. I do however, realize there must be a limit to the number of bonds one man can have (what would you do with a bunch of women in your head at the same time?)and still stay sane, and that the abilities themselves must have a limit otherwise Rand would be untouchable, and that would make TG a crock.
12
Eelfinn Ty: 2003-07-09
If i remember right when the three were bonded to Rand Elayne says something like "what happens to one happens to the others". First she wove the modified Aiel's sister weave then she made one bond that involved all three of them. So it's more like 1 shared bond than 2 or 3 bonds
13
rubbernilly: 2003-07-10
Actually, thinking back on it, I am going to change my mind to believing that Rand *was* taken as warder by El, Avi, and Min. But I do this because of a piece of evidence that no one has mentioned yet:
Elayne at one point muses that though Alanna had taken Rand for her warder, there was no reason Elayne could not *also* take Rand as her warder, too. It went against custom, but not against tower law.
I had forgotten this passage when I posted before, but I think it's the clearest indication that what she did to him was truly the bonding of a warder. And because she was linked to the other women, he is bonded to them as well.
14
Shadow Bane: 2003-07-15
Rand is bonded to E,A, M but does anyone think it will make an effect at TG/ How about bonded Ashaman?
15
heronblade: 2003-07-17
if you remember quite a bit back (haven't got the books here but around pod) one of the forsaken commented on the unexpected developments in this age. he mentioned involuntary bonds. we assumed tis refered to the sachean but what if its the bonds. this would mean that there was more advantages for the as than for the warder cause the bond is unballanced
16
rubbernilly: 2003-07-17
I thought that at one point the Warder bond *specifically* was commented on by an AoL-er.
I seem to remember a couple of times when Forsaken types were surprised by what the "children" of this Age had come up with so it is very likely that I am remembering a different section than you, heronblade.
17
silverwolf: 2003-07-17
Moridin mentions involuntary rings, not involuntary bonds. He was referring to forcing someone into a circle, not the Warder bond. He mentions the warder bond in a different place.
The Asha'man can also bond women. Has anyone wondered what would happen if a man who can channel and a woman who can channel bonded each other?
18
Callandor: 2003-07-17
Moridin mentions the Warder bond seperatly. So the logical conclusion is the Seanchan A'dam which is the involuntary rings. It makes since because Aes Sedai ask men to become the Warders usnally not just taking them, and a ring is a linked circle, just an AoL term, so thats Power drawn and the Seanchan A'dam is the only thing that makes both those conditions.
19
Jiana: 2003-07-19
I think the compulsion that Lan referred to was not related to the bond at all, but rather he was referring to Compulsion, which is frowned upon by all (except the BA) in the WT. I don't think that the AS would be able to control their Warder's actions just through the bond, seeing as Elayne (who does not know the Compulsion weave) cannot control Birgitte at all. Of course they mirror one another in thought and feeling a lot of times, but Birgitte is still her own woman, and does not do things just because Elayne says so.
20
Shadow Bane: 2003-07-20
"Compelled. Never once have you used my bond to compel me. I thought you more than disapproved of that."
This quote makes it pretty clear that a bond can be used to compel a warder. Birgitte cannot be compelled because she is a woman and so is elayne.
21
Priest: 2003-07-20
I have a couple of points on this subject:
1. (Jiana) Occasionally the warder bond includes an oath with it, this oath could potentially be as strong as "You will obey all my commands" Elayne comments on the fact that some Aes Sedia do make their warders swear oaths when they bond them and she wished that she had thought to do that with Birgette.
2. I will have to search my books, but I believe that it is a female AoL'er that mentions the warder bond specifically as a unique idea for the "children of this age"
3. I think that Elayne will want Alanna to transfer the warder bond to her, but do someone is going to voice the concern over her being bonded to Rand as a warder while pregnant, Rand is in for a lot of pain and I don't see that being good for the babies. Alanna has to pass the bond to someone though, eventually I say Elayne will get it.
Just some thoughts...
22
Anubis: 2003-07-20
so you think logain knows compulsion?
and you think that alanna knew compulsion... but forgot it when her warder died? no no no. its just the bond and how it is done.
23
Callandor: 2003-07-21
From LoC:
**"If you had to bond a man without asking him," Kiruna demanded in that commanding voice, "why, by the Light most holy, have you not used the bond to bend him to you will? Compared to the other, that is only slapping his wrist."
Alanna still had small control of her emotions. Color actually flooded her cheeks, partly in anger by the way her eyes flashed, and assuredly partly in shame. "Has no one told you?" she asked, too brightly. "I suppose no one wants to think of it. I certainly do not." Faeldrin and Seonid looked at the floor, and they were not the only ones. "I tried to compel him moments after I bonded him," Alanna continued as if noticing none of it. "Have you ever attempted to uproot an oak tree with your bare hands, Kiruna? It was much the same."
...
"No one has ever bonded a man who can channel," Alanna said with her mirth subsided. "Perhaps that has something to do with it."**
Aes Sedai can compel there Warders, but it seems men who can channel are almost impossible to compel.
24
Jiana: 2003-07-21
Okay, point(s) taken. :)
25
rubbernilly: 2003-07-21
Also notice from that quote that Callandor provided that the oaths a Warder takes have nothing to do with the Compelling that is done to them. Rand took no oath when Alanna bonded him, and yet she thought that she would be able to Compel him. Therefore it has to have something to do with manipulating the warder through the bond - like concentrating on the warder's presence in the AS's mind in a particular way.
I also think people are getting confused in thinking of the Compelling that is done to Warders as the same things as the Compulsion that is so reviled. They are not the same thing.
26
Shadow Bane: 2003-07-21
Thanks Callandor you took the words right out of my mouth. And Priest, i beleive Sermihage said that remark about 'the children of this age' when she was killing that Aes Sedai and her warder.
27
Callandor: 2003-07-21
**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 52 - Weaves of the Power
"This is madness," Nisao muttered. "Be quiet," Myrelle hissed. In a louder voice, she called, "Come to me." The horse did not move. A wolfhound mourning his dead mistress did not come to a new mistress willingly. Delicately she wove Spirit and touched the part of him that contained her bond; it had to be delicate, or he would be aware of it, and only the Creator knew what sort of explosion might result. "Come to me."**
The bond makes the Warder weak to a very crude command control that the sisters take for Complusion (we know it isn't because Complusion involves Spirit and Water).
28
juitzhead: 2003-07-29
i think that your are also forgetting the warder bond b/w ashaman and aes-sedai. The ashaman bond has an "Extra Bit" where the AS are compelled to obey any order given.
Now this can come into dispute onto wether the AS/Warder bond is the same as the AM/AS bond, but i think that they are and that the AM have added the extra bit.
29
Callandor: 2003-07-30
The Asha'man bond is different then the Aes Sedai bond. And Rand isn't bonded to any Asha'man thank god ;).
30
Jack o Shadows: 2003-10-23
I just had a horrible thought. What of Cadsuane gets the bond 'cos Elayne already has his? : |
31
Callandor: 2003-10-23
**What of Cadsuane gets the bond 'cos Elayne already has his?**
Cad's was thinking of making Alanna pass her bond to her, but she found out she can't force Rand to do what she wanted that way and decided it was pointless; the bond with Elayne, Min, and Avi is just as pointless.
32
Cor Shan: 2003-10-25
Why? It did what it was supposed to do: give Ely and Avi a warning system so if he was REALLY hurt they could travel. Plus it is kind of mushy for the girls. Anyway I think the Bond is helping Rand with all those things.
33
Murrin: 2003-10-26
There is a fairly large difference between the effects of a bond on a normal man and the effects on a channeler.
The ability to channel the Power instils a natural sensitivity to the Shadow's taint on a creature, and the stronger you are, the further away you can sense it - hence Rand feeling the Darkhounds in tFoH (the sensitivity comes to a channeler over time - hence Rand isn't able to sense things until tFoH, but always senses them afterwards (except Grey Men, which Lan says in tDR cannot be sensed)). The Warder bond passes part of this sensitivity to the one bonded. With Rand, or any Asha'man, this will not change them at all, since they are already sensitive.
The second effect is endurance - a part of the bonder's strength can be given to the bondee. We do not really see much evidence of this in the books when it comes to Rand, but we can assume that it is part of the reason Rand was less tired than Nyneave after cleansing the source - even though he did most of the work.
The third thing is ability to sense the one you are bonded to, and we have plenty of evidence of that.
The final is the ability of the bonder to manipulate the bond using the power - to force them to obey, either a single command (Myrelle with Lan) or constantly (Toveine and Gabrelle, and Alanna makes an attempt). With a male channelers, to channel they must block out all thought and emotion, entering the 'void'. This, we have seen, shield a man from all forms of compulsion, whether Compulsion with the power, or manipulation through the bond.
So far as we have seen, Rand does not appear to be any different to any other channeling Warder.
One other thing about the extra bonds - When Rand asks Fel if it can be broken, he says something about it taking a stronger force to break a force. This is why Alanna was unconscious for three days. The second bond (or is it second, third and fourth?) was stronger than Alanna's, and almost displaced the original, but wasn't strong enough in the end to completely sever Rand's other bond.
34
OKflyboy: 2003-10-27
Still trying to decide what I think about this, but a few people mentioned this, so here's the quote:
From LoC Ch. 6
"Pausing, Semirhage studied him. There was something.... A tightness around the mouth and eyes. As if he already fought pain. Of course. That peculiar bond between Aes Sedai and Warder. Strange that these primitives should have come up with something that none of the Chosen understood, yet it was so. From the little she knew, this fellow quite possibly felt at least some of what the other patient was undergoing. Another time that would present interesting possibilities. Now, it only meant that he thought he knew what he was facing."
