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he Ultimate Goal of the Dark One

by son of battles: 2003-02-04 | 6 out of 10 (4 votes)

Previous Categories: Plans of the Dark One

Has anyone considered WHY Ishamael has struggled so hard to turn Rand to the Darkside, why the Dark One wants Rand to be his champion? Starting in Book #1, Ishamael could have killed Rand, Mat and Perrin and been done with it. Why not just kill them and be done with it?

My theory/question is this: is it possible that the purpose OF EVERYTHING is to turn Rand to the Darkside? Either outright (kneeling, becoming his champion) or constructively (becoming so hardened, unfeeling, and inhuman that he is essentially evil (which is what Cadsuane fears so much) or is unwilling to consciously sacrifice his life, etc? In other words, the struggle between the Creator and the Dark One centers on one soul, the soul chosen by the Creator, the strongest ta'veren, Rand. The theory is that the Dark One can only break the Wheel and remake it in his own image if he turns this soul to evil. As the strongest ta'veren, he could enable the Dark One to do this. The struggle is the exercise of free will/choice by the Creator's champion. Thoughts?
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Tamyrlin: 2003-02-05

I never thought that Rand's hardened attitude could eventually be "evil" but I guess I see what you are saying. Although, recently Jordan commented at a signing (believe at your own risk :) that the soul of the Dragon has turned before which ended the Age in a stalemate between the Creator and the Dark One which would suggest that the DO would need something more than just Rand.


Dedicated: 2003-02-05

Ishy has also made comments to Rand that the Creator's champion has been turned and raised up as the Shadow's champion. It's probably happened more than once, considering ALL the turnings of the wheel. So turning Rand would be definitely help the DO's cause, but it wouldn't necessarily guarentee a victory by the DO.


son of battles: 2003-02-07

What do you think the additional requirement is? Could it be the difference between a voluntary turning and an involuntary turning (using 13 channelers with 13 Myrdraal, for example)?


son of battles: 2003-02-08

Tamyrlin, I've been thinking about your response about Rand being turned before and that possibly something more was needed. I was re-reading Great Hunt where Ba'alzamon commented that he and LT had battled since the beginning of time, that they were two sides of the same coin (page 242). If LTT/Rand is the "Lord of Chaos," is it possible that Ishamael is the "Lord of Order?" Is it possible that Rand could have served the Dark One in the past but that Ishamael served the Light on those occasions? Maybe what is required for the Dark One to win is to turn BOTH LT/Rand and Ishamael in the same turning of the Wheel. Thoughts?


Tamyrlin: 2003-02-09

I guess my opinion is that the Dark One would have one hell of a time winning. The Pattern, through its ability to "see" into the future (Mirror Worlds), can adjust itself to meet the demands of an ever changing weave. So, even in the case that LTT and Ishamael (both champions) are fighting for the DO, I think the Pattern can anticipate those changes and counteract them in various ways. I wonder the end of the cycle of seven all souls get recycled, all bonds to the DO get broken, and it all begins again. Or when the wheel starts into another turning...does the DO still keep those souls he was attached to in the Seventh Age?


Nateosis: 2003-02-13

See, I often wondered about the prologue to EotW, Ishy tells lews therin "we have fought each other a thousand times before, a thousand times a thousand" now does that mean he REMEMBERS all these times cause he's always been the dark one's lackey? or does it simply mean he knows the theory behind the turning of the great wheel?


Anubis: 2003-03-31

how does a stalemate work out? dark one free, but not in controll? wouldnt that seriously mess up the pattern, 2 divine beings activly trying to take controll...

what would break the stalemate?

is NOW the stalemate?

(its possible, these arent happy fun times..., maybe dragon b4 therin turned and thats y the dark one is imprisoned... or not... being imprisoned is pretty indicative of losing)

how would you characterize the end of last age?

apparently dark one was winning till the end, and he still got to mess with the world for the last couple thousand years..


anderwarrick: 2003-06-06

hey, Nateosis I think it said in the BWB that Ishamael was a philosopher. I think it also said somewhere that he, like Herid Fel later, figured out from their philosophy that since the wheel of time turns constantly, that when it comes to the same place as last turning, then the same stuff must be happening as the last time, with a few changes. This could lead to Ishamael saying that they had battled countless times. Or the DO could have told him or something.


spearmaiden: 2003-07-09


I do not think that any bonds to the dark one automatically get snapped at the end of the Seventh Age for one simple reason -- there are no beginnings or endings to the Wheel of Time -- we hear this over and over at the beginning of each book. Plus, I seem to remember reading somewhere (maybe the BWB? not sure, don't have it with me right now) that the Ages 1-7 were arbitrarily assigned, that there is no definite "reset point" where everything recycles back to the beginning, because there is no "beginning."

However, I do believe that there are times in the turning when no one is attatched to the DO. My impression of the world before the breaking was that no one knew of the DO or served the DO, that people were blissfully ignorant of his existance until the Bore. (Again, just general impressions from the books, mainly the BWB, but I can't give quotes because I don't have the books on hand). In this case, no one was tied to the DO at this point, since supposedly no one knew he existed.


Coramoor: 2005-09-25

I like this theroy but i agree with Tamyrlin. I think the something more is all three, Rand,Mat and Perrin.


JakOShadows: 2005-09-26

Coramoor: That is possible. And the wheel would have to react fast. And I just got to thinking, wasn't Demandred and Sammuel some of the most brilliant generals of the time. What if they were the other ta'veren and were turned by the DO? Since LTT was the only brilliant mind we hear about fighting for the creator, that could be possible. And that would explain why he has such a hard time fighting the shadow. But this would be purely speculation since we have no idea of exact events back then.


Callandor: 2005-09-26

**What if they were the other ta'veren and were turned by the DO?**

1. They went willingly -- not turned.

2. There is the implication that if you're ta'veren, you can't be truely working for the Shadow. You work for balance. Rand isn't ta'veren because he's the Champion of the Light -- he's ta'veren because the Pattern was/is being thrown off it's plan, and he re-addresses the balance. That's why it's not all good things that come of his actions -- people will survive falls from 100 feet, and trip over rocks when they stand up and kill themselves; they'll be 100 marriages a day, but a person will open a window and a roof tile will come careening at their head by noting but dumb "luck."

3. As you said, it's pure speculation with absolutely no backing.