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oridins absence

by storm leader: 2003-08-07 | Not yet rated

Previous Categories: Plans of the Dark One

This is something thats been bugging me. Moridin ordered everyone to show up when rand started to cleanse the source but he himself was absent. If he showed up he could have obviously fried everyone with the TP before anyone knew he was there.

TITLE: Winter's Heart, CHAPTER: 13 - Wonderful News

"Killed?" Moridin moved his hands as though weighing something. "If it comes to that, yes," he said finally. "But finding him is no problem. When he touches the Choedan Kal, you will know where he is. And you will go there and take him. Or kill him, if necessary. The Nae'blis has spoken."

The only two reasons I can think that he didn't was that he is acting under other orders from the DO or he has his own agenda. I remember him helping rand in shadar logoth against sammael but here I thought he wanted him dead. Also in COT he came to punish mesaana because she didn't attack rand. The only way he would have known she wasn't there is if he was there and noticed her abscence. If he was why didnt he attack?

If anyone sees any errors I've made or has comments or an explanation that would be appreciated. If this has been posted before forgive me im a new member.
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Tamyrlin: 2003-08-13

I think you are mixing up Shaidar Haran's visit to Mesaana with Moridin. Moridin never visits her, however, I would guess that they knew she didn't show up for that fight, because she never showed up to the meeting in the first place. But you bring up a good point, was the DO trying to get rid of a few of his Chosen? Ishamael wouldn't have been sensed, and easily could have killed Rand with the we have to assume that it was a plot device by Jordan, or that the DO wasn't that concerned about the taint being cleansed? Isn't it strange that we never see Moridin in CoT? Also, as the quote says, Moridin didn't want Rand dead, just taken, and most of all he wanted the Choedan Kal.


Great Lord of the Dark: 2003-08-13

Perhaps Moridin had orders not to get involved, but the Nae'Blis seems to be allowed to call the shots on his own, more or less. I'm more likely to say it was self-preservation that kept him away. Why risk Rand or other Chosen putting a knife in your back. He is Nae'blis, they must obey. He has been given the authority to direct them, not do things himself, as he was forced to when he first returned.

Moridin helped killed Sammael for his scheming, then brought Graendal to heel for her conspirating with Sammael. Similarly, Mesaana was given the screws for her failure. Disobeying the Nae'blis or the Dark One is a Major Offence. As to knowing she was there, there are two ways. He or an agent was at the battle. Moghedien and Lanfear and Graendal don't count since no Chosen saw each other. It had to be Moridin himself or Shaidar Haran. The other way is if they were observing what Mesaana was doing during the cleansing. No need to risk getting caught in a crossfire that way, and Moridin has proven himself able to spy on Chosen unseen.

The final point is whether the Dark One cared if Saidin got cleansed. Obviously he did, or every other Chosen wouldn't have been involved. But Moridin himself may be more important than even that. The main thing I see is that clean saidin screws up the Black Tower, which seems to have been heartily supported by the Shadow up until now. But the objective may have been other than stopping the cleansing. He asked for Rand's possessions to be acquired. That may have meant the Choedan Kal, or it could be related to the attacks on Bashere and Dobraine, where the seals on the Dark One's prison were the target. In that case, no need for Moridin to fear getting killed spying, or another Chosen making off with the Choedan Kal.


Dorindha: 2003-08-13

GLotD brings up an interesting point - the Black Tower. Assuming the dark has supported it so far - Taim and cronies etc - it now poses a threat as previously the dark could "buy" male channellers' support by offering protection from the taint, as we learnt from Asmodean. I assume that this is the reason Taim has reached the age he has without succumbing to the madness.

Therefore, it is in the interest of the dark to keep the taint on the male half of the source as not only does it weaken the opposition, but it gives leverage in recruiting new male channellers.

PS: this does not include those who were going to go dark anyway - the Black Ajah exists without such leverage, it just would make a difference in borderline cases.


juitzhead: 2003-08-13

The only reason why I can think of Moridin not showing up to the fight would be that he's setting up the other Chosen to take the blame for disobeying the DO's orders. The orders from Moridin were to take Rand, but get a hold of the CK primarily. Why would Moridin place an emphasis on this? Perhaps to obtain the CK and challenge the DO? We know that he often thinks himself as the DO.

SH knew Mesaana did not turn up to the meeting and thus punished her. So it is possible that it was the DO's plan all along. SH and Moridin seem to be working very closely together.

As far as Moridin not turning up, he is Nae'blis and perhaps the DO does not want his champion defeated (again) before the LB.


Friar: 2003-08-14

Moridin wants to remain the Nae'blis and any threat to sombody wilding that much of the power through the Choedan Kal would be a threat to his life and position.

Firstly, we know that the chosen can be "prevented" from drawing on the power so the Choedan Kal in their posession would not be a threat and he could collect it from them anytime. Secondly, all the forsaken were attacked whoever they were. If you risked going with the posibility of being killed when you can send others as sacrifices, would you?

Thirdly, Rand or Rand's followers would be a big threat to him, the forsaken and the DO's plans. The good guys could win.

Forthly, we know that the purpose of clensing the male half of the power would have reprocussions to the "influence" of DO's protection.

As to the other, we learnt that Sammael was posing as Nae'blis and from the thoughts of Garendal that "no one would claim to be Nae'blis unless it was true", indicate that there is a price to be paid for acting so.

Lastly, with the change of plans that Moridin has, it would better be refered to the struggle of Creator/DO in the game of "Fisher". From comments in various books we know that once the battle commences plans change and the best generals know how to adapt. It could be that to have Rand captured is a goal for today but only when the risk is not too high. Tomorrow there may be another posibility depending on the circumstances or tomorrow the risk to DO and his final objective is such that killing Rand is prefrable. Then of course next week/month, who knows. Whether it is his agenda or not I can not tell you. I think that he knows more of the DO's wishes than anyone else but he wants to achieve them as he sees fit. Example, DO must break free. Moridin is given the task. Moridin gives orders how he wants it done. If the threat is too big then plans change.


Callandor: 2003-08-14

1. Moridin wasn't there because he isn't a fool and doesn't want to go charging into a battle when he can send others. He learned that it's better not to fight Rand a few times.

2. Moridin would not ever challenge the DO. He wants the CK because, stroke of genius, Rand and company could and most likely would use it in the Last Battle. Does he want that? Duh, no!
3. Yes, with the taint gone the Dark can lose a large majority of the male channelers that would swear to them for the cords, but as stated before the Black Ajah exists and there is no taint on saidar. Not to mention the others who already have sworn to the Dark (strongly hinted at to be all of Taim's "special" lessons).
4. Mesaana was punished for going her own way, not for not being at the cleansing. Most likely, it happened because she taught Alvarian a few things (remember what Moggy got for that ;)). She would probably have no idea what it was that was going on during the cleansing and no clue that she was supposed to interrupt.


Rhodric: 2003-08-14

moridin didn't care about rand being dead or alive. but he did want the CK.

i think moridin is truly faithful to the DO and wants the CK to rupture the DO's prison and allow Him to touch the world once more (possibly to a greater extent than ever before - the CK is damn powerful).


Caramoor: 2003-08-14

Is it possible that Moridin sent the others to find Rand when he channels through the Choedan Kal because Moridin himself is not allowed or is unable to channel the One Power, only the True Power? The other Forsaken are shocked that he channels exclusively with the True Power because of its side effects and the fact that it is dangerous and extremely addictive. The True Power seems to be the DO's antithesis to the One Power and totally under his control. Shouldn't the Nae'blis be as similar to the DO as possible. And what other way to make him/her so than to have them bask in the unholy filth that is the DO and his essence, the True Power (aka, the former taint on Saidin)?


Shadow Bane: 2003-08-16

Just read Callandors post i dont want to say it again ;)


Callandor: 2003-08-16

**Is it possible that Moridin sent the others to find Rand when he channels through the Choedan Kal because Moridin himself is not allowed or is unable to channel the One Power, only the True Power?**

No, Moridin can channel saidin.

TITLE: Path of Daggers, CHAPTER: 2 - Unweaving

From behind a screen of white wrought iron, Moridin watched the last of the horses vanish through the gateway, and then the tall young woman and the four Warders. It was possible they were carrying away some item he could use—an angreal attuned to men, perhaps—but the chances were small. For the rest, the ter'angreal, the greatest likelihood was that they would kill themselves trying to puzzle out how to use them. Sammael was a fool to have risked so much to seize a collection of no one knew what, then, Sammael had never been half as clever as he thought.**

Why would he want an angreal attuned to men, if he can't channel saidin? Makes no sense at all if he can't channel saidin and the TP.


Anubis: 2003-08-16

you were summoned and you did not come. summoned for what we dont know. but when the dark one calls, a darkfriend should come running. BAD MESSANA.


Aiel Finn: 2004-12-10

With the CK wouldn't it be possible to balefire someone back a few millenia. Ishy may have wanted the CK so he could balefire Rand/LTT back 3000 years and remove the seal once and for all.


haertchen: 2005-03-04

This idea is one I've seen before, but I think it should be injected into this conversation because it could have further-reaching implications later on. What if Moridin is suffering from the same "sickness" that Rand is suffering from, e.g. double vision, nausea, etc? I have seen some theories that Rand's trouble was caused by crossing bale-fire with Moridin in Shadar Logoth. If this is true, the Moridin would be more cautious about going into a channeling situation---like Rand, he would not want to show his weakness in front of others. In fact, the Naeblis showing weakness in front of the forsaken is, in my opinion, the fastest way known of getting yourself balefired.