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emandred/Shaidar Hett/Moridin

by EvilJawa101: 2003-11-11 | Not yet rated

Previous Categories: Plans of the Dark One

Okay so here goes: I have been intrigued by theses three characters for quite some time. It mainly centers on Demandred, of all the Forsaken, he seems to be doing the best. He really hasn't meesed anything up for the DO and seems to have some well laid plans, as evident at the end of LoC when Demandred kneels at Shayol Ghoul and asks if hes done well. Personally, it seemed like a rhetorical question.

It should also be noted, that Rand killed Ishamael, but Demandred hasn't died yet. It is also mentioned that he was always barely short of LTT in strength. Meaning, he is quite formidable. So then why is Ishamael still the DO's favorite?
I see two possiblities:

1: Demandred is really the DO's favorite Forsaken.

2:Ishamael was supposed to be killed by Rand and his purpose has been to always help Rand succeed/gain confidence.

So then, is the DO not trying to kill Rand? Moridin did help him in Shagar Logoth. Why the DO wouldn't want to kill Rand, well, I dunno, the only thing I can think of is that would he got fighting in the sky. Maybe it will corrupt him or kill him in the end. I just dunno. The other possibility, maybe Moridin has his own plans. Perhaps he is something like Shaddar Hett from another realm, portal stones? or maybe he something like Padan Fain who has allied with the DO. Anyhow, lotsa rambling, tell me what you think.
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Tamyrlin: 2003-11-17

An initial answer to your idea would be the possibility that Ishamael was a bit crazy, and while he followed the DO's orders, he was doing his own thing, it appeared, before he was killed by Rand in TDR. The DO wants the soul; while killing Rand would create some chaos, there is something important about getting that soul (the soul of a hero, the champion of light, a powerful channeler, a ta'veren.) The DO could be playing a game with Demandred, kind of like the back-up quarterback, ready to step in once Ishamael fails. But, you bring up the possibility that the DO wants Rand to make it to Shayol Ghul...why?


Sensir: 2003-11-17

To me it seems the DO is overconfident and thinks if rand gets that far it would serve him well. In my view the seanchan and a civil war would F*** things up pretty bad. So manybe demandred is supposed to be alive at the last battle to help teh DO defeat rand. A distraction maybe so the DO could do something or maybe to counter and hold rands armies. Demandred obviously serves a purpos ein teh future. i Guess we'll read and find out


Callandor: 2003-11-17

**It should also be noted, that Rand killed Ishamael, but Demandred hasn't died yet. It is also mentioned that he was always barely short of LTT in strength. Meaning, he is quite formidable. So then why is Ishamael still the DO's favorite?**

I'm not sure if you know this, or are just seperating it and I am muddling it all up, but Ishy was reincarnated by the DO as Moirdin; he was and still is the DO's favorite.

And Dem hasn't died yet, because Rand doesn't know where he is ;) And Dem hasn't done that much that we can really see (weather that is a good thing on his part is unknown of course).

**Perhaps he is something like Shaddar Hett from another realm, portal stones? or maybe he something like Padan Fain who has allied with the DO.**

Shadar Haran is a Myrddraal that has been altered by the DO to serve his purposes, along with Moridin; weather they have met or who is in control of the situation is unknow.

Padan Fain is totally against the DO now, and has been since about the end of TEOTW.

Moridin/Ishy is for the DO all the way. He is Nae'blis, he is basically the entire symbol of the Dark throught the novels.


Murrin: 2003-11-18

Well, first of all, Demandred cannot be trusted when dealing with the Dragon (Reborn or otherwise). He would let his personal feelings get in the way of the DO's plans - as he is doing now, with his repeated attempts at killing Rand. Secondly, Ishamael was the world's most prominent philosopher, and although he has gone half-mad, the fact remains that Moridin has a brilliant mind. Demandred is a good general, but Moridin is the better at running things.


Rhodric: 2003-11-19

hey eviljawa (nice name) you point out that Dem is successful from the end of LoC quote - he doesn't seemed to have failed noticeably yet. others Forsaken have concentrated on personal gain more than DO's plans (Lnfr, Rahvin, Sammy, Graen), and if you call that failure then it would seem that Dem is yet to fail.

he could be backup or Ishy is a 'figurehead' like Egwene, 2 things make me think opposite:

- 3000 years or more of Ishy's good work against 50 or so yrs of Dem winning battles as a general. Ishy wins that test, IMO.

-Demandred's personal hatred for LTT and Rand could disrupt DO's plans, whereas Ishy merely seems to have contempt. again it seems Ishy is the victor.

from Tam:" But, you bring up the possibility that the DO wants Rand to make it to Shayol Ghul...why?"

here's why:

if Rand is using massive amounts of the OP to seal the DO's prison a slight kick in Rand's face might be all that's needed to break his concentration, OP goes all over the shop and weakens DO's prison further, DO breaks free. i thought that has been DO's plan for ages - to keep Rand alive until then, make sure he has the CK or something else huge (similar to an idea that Ishy wants CK to rupture DO's prison).

Dem does seem to be in the DO's "good books" so maybe he's #2 under the new Naeblis.


Than: 2003-11-20

dude do you have any idea what the Shai'Tan is? i think (now i may be way off so dont bite my head off) that the Great Lord of the Dark is accualy nothing more and nothing less then the Creators "chess" opponet seeking the complete and total annialation and corruption of everything the Creator well Created and NOTHING is more fun then to take a Champion away from your oponet (i cant spell im sorry) trust me there is nothing more fun than to take away the one piece (or in this case 3 pieces) that your oponnet has based his game wining stratigy on as for the rest (dont kill me) RAFO it will be answered trust me jordan is an egomaniacal genius he will tell us in the end (if no one gets so frustrated by his constant RAFOs that they kill him)


Bloodmist: 2003-11-27

well who's is to say ishamael is moridin, and if they are how do you know if they aren't stronger then demandred. Besides Ish, and moridin ARE AT LEAST trying to bring the forsaken together, and demandred is sizing them up trying to be on top. I think the real question is the link between shaidar and moridin and who is stronger and who is in charge. Shaidar is the hand of the dark one, but i thought that was the moridin's job.

Proof. Moridin is trapping forsaken in those mind traps. They are traps yes but he is keeping them alive. If demandred has his way moridin wouldn't get a body the next time he dies. That is close to something demandred said in winter heart, during the forsaken meeting.


Cor Shan: 2003-11-28

They are one and the same because:

Both are addicted to the TP.

Both are insane philosiphers (sp).

Both are the DO's Favorite. Who else could it be anyways? Aginor is Osan'gar, Bethalmel is Aran'gar Lanfear is Cydane, Be'lal is BF'ed, same with all the other dead Forsaken, save Sammeal, but he died too late to be Moridin


Callandor: 2003-11-28

**well who's is to say ishamael is moridin, and if they are how do you know if they aren't stronger then demandred.**

Plain, simple, and elegant, ala the WOT FAQ:

**Why are we sure that Moridin is Ishamael returned from the grave?

Evidence from ACOS:

It is fairly obvious from multiple references that Moridin is a reincarnated Forsaken. He makes many references to the Age of Legends as though he were there. He has personal knowledge of the other Forsaken. His sobriquet translates to 'Death.'

Aginor and Balthamel, though reincarnated, are accounted for as Osan'gar and Aran'gar respectively. Be'lal and Rahvin were Balefired, and as such are beyond the Dark One's ability to restore. Asmodean, in Robert Jordan's own words, is roadkill. Sammael, though apparently dead, did not die until well after the introduction of Moridin in the narrative. No other male Forsaken have been killed in action. (And from [TPOD: 2, Unweaving, 81], we know that Moridin is and was male, since he remarks that he would be able to use an angreal tuned to saidin.)

The Toxic Twins (Aginor and Balthamel) were recycled, and all they did to merit it was getting killed at the Eye of the World. Ishy kept the faith alive for 3000+ years, AND kept the other Forsaken somewhat in line before he died. Surely, that merits some consideration in the "bring back from the dead" competition; Ishy was overdue for a reappearance. Ishamael had been a particularly loyal servant of the Dark One, as well as the most effective. If any of the thirteen would deserve reincarnation, it would be Ishamael, for he seemed not only to serve the Dark One, but to serve him faithfully. It is likely that Ishamael knew that the Dark One's plans were not for conquest but for total destruction, and still he served. (In the AOL, he "called for the complete destruction of the old order-- indeed, the complete destruction of everything." [Guide: 5, The Dark One and the Male Forsaken, 51]

Moridin uses the True Power to the exclusion of the One Power. In fact, he uses it for "routine" things for which the OP would be fine: like picking up chess pieces, Balefire, and Travelling. The True Power, according to Moghedien, is used only extremely rarely, even by the Forsaken. Of the original Forsaken, Ishamael is the only one who we've seen use the TP.

Both Moridin and Ishamael display strange visual effects about their eyes. Moridin has the saa, while Ishamael had those odd bursts of flame. It has been speculated that the flames are an advanced version of the saa, or that the flames were a method to disguise the saa.

Evidence from TPOD:

The Prologue of TPOD is particularly revealing.

Moridin's blank-faced servants are identical to Ishamael's servants from the prologue of TGH. Similarly, the chamber in which he sits contains a fire that gives no heat and consumes no logs. It has no physical means of egress. This is identical in tone to the description given of Ishamael's chambers through TEOTW and TGH.

(Also in the Prologue) while Moridin is musing over his re-creation of an historical game of sha'rah, it becomes extremely clear that the game is a metaphor for the struggle between the Dark One and the rest of the world, with Rand (or the Dragon) embodied in the Fisher piece. One can win by either controlling and moving the Fisher piece to a particular location, by allowing your opponent to hold the Fisher and leaving him only legal moves which similarly result in victory for you. The style of the game parallels Ishamael's actions through the first three volumes very well, always manipulating Rand even though he was in the hands of other powers. The final method of victory is simply to be the last man standing. Moridin muses that he had only attempted that strategy once, with very painful results. This is almost certainly a metaphorical reference to his desperate assault on Rand at the end of TDR, the painful results being his own physical death.

The final observation from the prologue of TPOD is that Moridin becomes angry as he muses over the fact that he does not understand the origins of the name or the traditional shape of the Fisher piece on the game board. He becomes angry because he regards that knowledge, likely lost from some previous turning of the Wheel, as his right. Ishamael is the only other villain to worry seriously over events from other cycles, as he asserts in the prologue of TEOTW that he and Lews Therin have fought again and again since the beginning of time. According to [Guide: 5, The Dark One and the Male Forsaken, 50], Ishamael believed "the war between the Shadow and the soul of Lews Therin had gone on since the Creation, an endless war between the Great Lord of the Dark and the Creator using human surrogates."

In [TPOD: 2, Unweaving, 81], Moridin notes several modern developments of the Aes Sedai and other channellers which had been unknown and/or considered impossible in the Age of Legends. Among them, he lists the Warder bond and notes that he had known about that for a long, long time. Of all the Forsaken, only Ishamael could possibly have known about the Warder bonds for more than a few years, since only Ishamael had been active at all since the Strike at Shayol Ghul. This piece of evidence alone proves that Moridin is Ishamael.

Objections to the Moridin/Ishamael theory from before TPOD included the suggestion that Ishamael did not work well behind the scenes and that Ishamael might be expected to exert more influence on the remaining Forsaken. However, since we now know the general shape of Ishamael's activities during his rare periods of activity (as hinted at throughout the series and almost spelled out in the Guide) as well as his care in creating a cell structure for the Black Ajah, it is clear that Ishamael excels at behind the scenes manipulations.

Furthermore, in TPOD, it becomes clear that Moridin is indeed exerting more direct control over the remaining Forsaken. In ACOS, he takes direct control of Moghedien through one mindtrap, and is known to control another. In TPOD, it is revealed that 'Cyndane' (Lanfear reincarnated) is the other mindtrap victim.

It is also clear that Moridin and Shaidar Haran are cooperating. In [ACOS: 25, Mindtrap, 417], it is Shaidar Haran who delivers Moghedien to Moridin, and Moridin who controls her mindtrap. In [TPOD: 12, New Alliances], it is Moghedien and Cyndane (both under Moridin's control) who visit Graendal to tell her to accept Moridin as Nae'blis. Shaidar Haran later appears to convince her.

So we have three Forsaken under Moridin's control, which alone is significant. Extrapolating this pattern, we also note that when Aginor and Balthamel return as Osan'gar and Aran'gar in LOC, it is Shaidar Haran who first greets them. It is not at all unlikely that they also encountered Moridin offstage sometime thereafter. If true, this would place five Forsaken directly under his control.

Evidence from WH:

By WH, Moridin appears to have most or all of the remaining Forsaken leashed. Though Mesaana and Semirhage were not present at the Coffee Hour, it's clear that Mesaana, at least, has seen Cyndane. Moridin also expected Mesaana to be present, all of which implies that Mesaana was "gathered in" much the same way Graendal and, we presume, Demandred and the 'gars were.

Demandred certainly seems to think Moridin is Ishamael:

"'The Great Lord is sure you are all faithful,' Moridin announced, striding in as though he were the Great Lord himself. He had often seemed to believe he was, and the boy's face he wore now had not changed that." [13, Wonderful News, 316]

Who played at being Ba'alzamon for the first three books? That's right, Ishy did.

Moridin also likes to torture rats. Who else liked to kill rats? That's right, Ishy did.

Demandred also wonders about how to make sure Moridin doesn't get a new body the next time around.**

And we are told flat out in the BWB (Guide) that Ishy was the strongest of ALL the Forsaken. So, Dem isn't top dog.