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esurrecting Rand

by Great Lord of the Dark: 2004-08-06 | 5 out of 10 (8 votes)

Previous Categories: Plans of the Dark One

I believe the goal of the Dark One is to get Rand to turn voluntarily to the Shadow. This is based on Moridin's sha'rah observations, and the repeated efforts of Lanfear and Ishamael to turn him. See Lanfear's comments in the Stone of Tear in Book 4 for just how much the Dark one wants Rand to kneel before him.

To eventually succeed, pressure must be applied to Rand. This will be done by putting Elayne and his unborn children in danger via Shiaine and Hanlon's plot, and putting other places and people he cares about in harm's way simultaneously.

With Asha'man and other resources available to him, Rand could delegate and meet all attacks against his friends. So the Dark One must isolate him.

Attempts to do so in the past have failed because his friends came to his aid. Perrin and co. saved him from the Aes Sedai in Book 6. What is required is for Rand's friends to believe he is dead so they won't look for him. The best way to do this is by actually killing Rand, and resurrecting him in a new body at Shayol Ghul.

The Dark One would do this, since he plans to make Rand the Nae'blis, as evidenced by every single Forsaken fearing it is the plan. Keeping Rand captive while unable to do anything to help his friends in peril would make Rand concede and kneel to the Dark One voluntarily.

The Dark One will be able to do this because his powers over reality have increased with every seal broken and as the Bore expands. It is reasonable to guess his power over resurrection will expand beyond what has been proven to be true, into something with fewer limitations, including resurrection of his enemies.

Another point in favor of this scenario is that with ghosts appearing and the Horn of Valere to be blown, it seems that the Last Battle will involve all souls, both living and dead, being in the waking world. This should increase accessibility of souls for the Dark One.

Finally, in a response to a question asked to RJ on the Tor site, he indicated that he would reveal no more about transmigration, because he might want to use it again. I infer that he means to use it in a way we haven't seen yet, which leads back to an expansion of the limits placed upon the Dark One's transmigration activities.
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Comments

1

Tamyrlin: 2004-10-29

(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
If the Dark One can transmigrate any soul at any time, then why hasn't he used the last 3000+ years to capture and subvert the entire population?
If the Last Battle could be fought by a dead soul, then why have the soul be born in the first place?

2

brother of Battles: 2004-10-29

I don't think the DO can transmigrate anyone he chooses. If that were the case, he would have won a thousand years ago or better.

I believe he can only use his transmigration with those who have already submitted to him. Such as the forsaken, especially since that is the only people we have seen getting this done to.

He couldn't transmigrate Rand because Rand has never bent knee to him. Also, if you remember, Ishy was ready to kill him because they couldn't get him to turn. Also, Lanfear was only trying to turn him for her own goals and dreams of power. That was why she said they could challenge the DO or the Creator themselves. Her only intention was to gain more power, not help the Shadow.

3

Great Lord of the Dark: 2004-10-29

Frenzy, I specified that the Dark One's abilities are increasing due to failure of the Seals, so that he will soon be able to ressurect anyone, even if he can't at the moment.

That being the case, the only times it would have been possible to ressurect and enslave every dead soul in existence is when the Bore was wide, and there were bodies available to fill with souls. Sounds like a lot of effort.

Under my scenario, Rand's soul would not be dead. Normally, Rand's death would trigger a renewal of the Age and defer the Last Battle til the next Age as he re-enters the Soul Pool. But if the Dark One can short circuit that mechanism and bring Rand's soul to a new body, the Wheel would be unaware that the Last Battle isn't still about to unfold.

This is advantageous because unlike the AOL (who can say about prior Ages), Moridin appears to have agents in every place Rand does, waiting to undermine, backstab, disrupt, and sabotage Rand's efforts and threaten his loved ones. With Rand slipped out of the pattern and into the DO's clutches with no one the wiser, Rand is totally isolated and his friends are still menaced.

With the world as his hostage, the DO can then force Rand to bend knee voluntarily.

To answer some other topics you brushed on, the scenario I described gives the DO leverage to move Rand where he wants, which is something that turning the entire world against Rand couldn't do, since he would then fight to his dying breath.

Again, Rand has to be alive to fight the Last Battle, the DO needs to place Rand in a situation where he has no choice but to kneel, and could do that by tricking the Pattern into thinking he never died by using transmigration.

4

Callandor: 2004-10-29

**If the Dark One can transmigrate any soul at any time, then why hasn't he used the last 3000+ years to capture and subvert the entire population?

If the Last Battle could be fought by a dead soul, then why have the soul be born in the first place?**

I love it when my arguements are the exact same :)

**The Dark One would do this, since he plans to make Rand the Nae'blis, as evidenced by every single Forsaken fearing it is the plan. Keeping Rand captive while unable to do anything to help his friends in peril would make Rand concede and kneel to the Dark One voluntarily.**

The Dark One has said this? Or are the Forsaken just a little paranoid?

The Dark One has his Nae'blis. Why would Ishamael try, for 3 books!, to turn Rand to the Dark, if he was going to be placed above him?

**It is reasonable to guess his power over resurrection will expand beyond what has been proven to be true, into something with fewer limitations, including resurrection of his enemies.**

1. Why mindtrap important enemies in the AoL then? Just kill them and transmigrate them, boom, new servant.

2. Why hasn't he done anything like this before?

You know perfectly well my example of why the Dark One having power over every soul makes absolutely no sense (or at least I would hope, since I've only said it to you around 20 times ;)).

**Another point in favor of this scenario is that with ghosts appearing and the Horn of Valere to be blown, it seems that the Last Battle will involve all souls, both living and dead, being in the waking world. This should increase accessibility of souls for the Dark One.**

All souls? Populations before the Trolloc Wars were higher then they are now, in the AoL they were even higher still. What about all those dead souls??

**Finally, in a response to a question asked to RJ on the Tor site, he indicated that he would reveal no more about transmigration, because he might want to use it again. I infer that he means to use it in a way we haven't seen yet, which leads back to an expansion of the limits placed upon the Dark One's transmigration activities.**

Or he just doesn't want us to know everything....

**That being the case, the only times it would have been possible to ressurect and enslave every dead soul in existence is when the Bore was wide, and there were bodies available to fill with souls. Sounds like a lot of effort.**

Ah, so in the AoL, the Dark One was just lazy....

**This is advantageous because unlike the AOL (who can say about prior Ages), Moridin appears to have agents in every place Rand does, waiting to undermine, backstab, disrupt, and sabotage Rand's efforts and threaten his loved ones. With Rand slipped out of the pattern and into the DO's clutches with no one the wiser, Rand is totally isolated and his friends are still menaced.**

Rand slipped out of the Pattern? How would that work? How many times has Rand, Mat, and Perrin (especially the first two), ALMOST died, but have been saved by chance events (IE: the Pattern!)? I should really go count them one of these days....

Btw, Moridin has spies in many places; he does not say he has kidnappers in every place. Plus, how many times have Rand's loved ones shown they can defend themselves??

Anyway, how is this different then the AoL? There were people rife in the Light followers that were dedicated to the Dark One (even Mindtrapped people and turned people!), yet they couldn't do this to Lews Therin??

**With the world as his hostage, the DO can then force Rand to bend knee voluntarily.**

LOL!

Oh I love that. ~Force~ Rand, to sumbit ~voluntarily~. Lovely.

**Again, Rand has to be alive to fight the Last Battle, the DO needs to place Rand in a situation where he has no choice but to kneel, and could do that by tricking the Pattern into thinking he never died by using transmigration.**

I don't think the Pattern is tricked by transmigration. The Pattern knows when people die; the souls of those sworn to the Dark One, just get put into new bodies (IE: new threads). Aginor's thread ended a while back; Osan'gar's thread ended in WH. Different threads, same soul.

5

snakes-n-foxes: 2004-11-01

I like this theory, especially the idea that the dark one is trying to isolate Rand.

However, I'm very dubious that the Dark One intends to transmigrate Rands soul into another body.

You say that after the seals break, the Dark One will be able to do the above. If so, then during the War of Power, in LTT's time, the Dark One should also have been able to do this (because there were no seals restricting him at that time).

6

a dragonburned fool: 2004-11-01

If GLotD's theory is true, so the Mirror worlds where Rand dies because of any case before the Last Battle, wold lead to the full victory of the Dark One, because Rand will be dead, and DO will resurrect him and win. But RJ in one interview answer about those Portal Stone worlds said that there are degrees of victory, and in all possible worlds where Baalzamon says that he is winning against LTT again, the DO's victory is less then in the world where Rand survives until the Last Battle. So DO cannot just kill Rand and after a while when the Last Battle comes, to resurrect him... i.e. there's some limit to his control.

Rand's death in the Last Battle to be DO's plan, that has to explain somehow the Pattern's prophecies about Dragon's blood saving the world from DO. So for to win against the Shadow the Dragon must die, but for to win against Shadow according to GLotD's theory, the Dragon must not die. I cannot understand yet how this could be something else than a contradiction.

The premise that DO's resurrection would guarantee his victory is also suspitious, because DO already resurrected some of his Forsaken, but he still cannot rely on them fully, even if they were his willing servants even before the recycling. Can he rely on the Dragon's soul, who was his enemy before the death? And can he win ultimately if he cannot rely on his champion? How resurrecting the Dragon would mean turning him to the Shadow?

7

Daekyras: 2004-11-02

Why is Rand SO important? I don't want to hear "he's the Dragon Reborn", I can read that for myself. I have been re-reading the books again. He appears to be little more than a very strong channeler. whoopee doo. Why would the dark one fear him\need him so much? He is not that much stronger than the strongest forsaken, so why is he so important?

8

Callandor: 2004-11-02

**Why is Rand SO important? I don't want to hear "he's the Dragon Reborn", I can read that for myself. I have been re-reading the books again. He appears to be little more than a very strong channeler. whoopee doo. Why would the dark one fear him\need him so much? He is not that much stronger than the strongest forsaken, so why is he so important?**

Just to say it: He is the Dragon Reborn.

I'm sorry, but I can't hit you over the head with the obvious stick.

Rand is a ta'veren. The strongest ta'veren of the Age, most likely just like LTT. Of course he is important.

9

Elan Morin Tedronai 21: 2004-11-03

The reason that Rand is so important and much more than just a strong channeler is the fact that he's the champion for the Creator. Logically, if the DO could turn Rand and make him Nae'blis, then he would be immortal like all the rest of the Forsaken and there would be no soul to be reborn and lead the forces of the Light against the shadow, taking away the world's only hope of preventing the DO from ever breaking free.

10

Callandor: 2004-11-04

**Logically, if the DO could turn Rand and make him Nae'blis, then he would be immortal like all the rest of the Forsaken and there would be no soul to be reborn and lead the forces of the Light against the shadow, taking away the world's only hope of preventing the DO from ever breaking free.**

The Forsaken are not immortal; they have been promised immortality once they break the Dark One free, but they do not have it now. And this is not my intreptation of events; this is RJ stated, recorded, fact.

11

SDog: 2004-11-04

**Finally, in a response to a question asked to RJ on the Tor site, he indicated that he would reveal no more about transmigration, because he might want to use it again.**

Not precisely what you had in mind, though. See the quote below:

From the TOR website--

**"There are a few other limits and constraints, but I won't go into them here, since I may want to use them in the books, and I would rather they come as a surprise if I do."**

He says he is keeping the limits and constraints about transmigration secret till the end, not that he's going to reveal some new way or use for it.

I'm personally of the mind that the DO needs Rand because of the combination of channeling ability and ta'veren. He may be the only living person who has enough power to twist the Pattern that he can free the DO.

12

Daekyras: 2004-11-05

Sorry callandor and Elan Morin Tendorai, I think you mis-interpreted me.

I KNOW Rand is important. I don't need to be hit with the stupid stick. I want to know WHY he is important?

Him being Ta'veren doesnt cut it or the Dark one would have had people out searching for any ta'veren and that has never been mentioned in the books.(just an aside, are there women ta'veren?)

As for Rand being the champion of the Creator. The Creator can always get a new champion. And don't say any of that "He won't interfere" nonsense. If He Won't interfere how did Rand or Lews therin or whoever he first was become "the Dragon" in the first Place? Did suddenly his thread in the pattern morph in to the champion of light on it's own?

The Last battle- Rand must fight the Dark One. The Battle is coming soon. If Rand gets killed now, he'll still be a baby when it arrives even if he was re-incarnated a second after he died. If he isn't there to fight the battle, The Dark One wins. Simple. Kill him and get it over with.

13

golem22: 2004-11-07

It has been mentioned that in the past the dark one has turned the champion to his side... I wonder if the pattern would ever allow the dark one to excape?

14

Callandor: 2004-11-08

**If He Won't interfere how did Rand or Lews therin or whoever he first was become "the Dragon" in the first Place? Did suddenly his thread in the pattern morph in to the champion of light on it's own?**

Pressed submit by accident.

Ok....

Does nobody understand what the heck took place "in the beginning"?

The Creator and the Dark One were just there (give whatever rationalization that makes you sleep good at night; they were there is what we know).

Things the Creator did:

1. He imprisoned the Dark One.

2. He created the Wheel of Time.

3. Prescribed the plan of the Ages.

After that, he did -- NOTHING! And has done nothing at all since then directly.

How is Rand the Creators champion? He is a part of the plan designed by the Creator for each Age, and meets whatever qualifications he has. The Creator could've thought "I want someone with this, this, and this." And the Dragon's soul fitted in perfectly; bang, you're Champion is now complete.

And I will keep spewing back that Creator does not interfere "nonsense" because that is exactly what happens!

What does the Creator do? He creates. That's it. Seems simple doesn't it? (Yes, this is more of the obvious stick.)

All he does is create a world where anything within rules is possible. He leaves once that is done; he never interferes.

**TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight

CHAPTER: 24 - A Strengthening Storm

Irritably, Rand pushed his sleeves down and dropped into a chair. What he had done made no matter to Logain. The man knew saidin was clean, but he could not believe Rand or any man had actually done the cleansing. Did he think the Creator had decided to stretch out a merciful hand after three thousand years of suffering? ~The Creator had made the world and then left humankind to make of it what they would, a heaven or the Pit of Doom by their ~~choosing~~. The Creator had made many worlds, watched each flower or die, and gone on to make endless worlds beyond. A gardener did not weep for each blossom that fell.~**

The choice is the largest part of that quote really, but for unrelated reasons.

**If he isn't there to fight the battle, The Dark One wins. Simple. Kill him and get it over with.**

Guess not, since there was a probation from killing him earlier....

**It has been mentioned that in the past the dark one has turned the champion to his side... I wonder if the pattern would ever allow the dark one to excape?**

Would it? Allowing it, not really. It maintains balance. Is it possible for the Dark One to break free? Absolutely. Has he? No. The Pattern would've been remade by him if he had broken free.

Also, if you are refering to Ishamael talking to Rand about him turning, Ishamael does lie ;) How would he know anyway? Rand is certain he has never been turned, and that fits a lot better in the scheme of things.

15

Great Lord of the Dark: 2004-11-09

Callandor, you just wrote an entire post I agree with 100%. Incredible!

16

MeroTZ: 2004-11-09

Something to remember is Rand's equation to the Fisher in the stones game (Sha'rah? dont remember precisely). I dont think the Dark One can win without some precise victory condition, and in order to achieve it, he has to have Rand in a perfect spot (probably a very risky spot for him as well...).

The prohibition against killing Rand, and the current orders to kill Rand, probably have nothing to do with whether or not Rand lives or dies... the Dark One is moving pieces in order to force Rand to move where he wishes. During the analogy to the board game, Ishmael mentions he is playing both sides. He also mentions that either player can move the fisher... but never implies that either player owns the Fisher. As well, he mentions a very specific win condition. Very specific.

You have to leave the Fisher no other choice but to move onto your color square (or kill everything... that didn't work though).

So, what does this have to do with transmigration? Nothing, except that transmigrating Rand does nothing for the DarkOne: its not one of the win conditions. He wont own Rand's soul, and he still won't be able to control it. You could argue Rand would be in a easier position to corrupt, via myrdraal or other means, but capturing him wouldn't be too much harder than killing him as it is now. You mention his friends always save him: by that point, why can't they save him from being killed, if thats the dark ones plan?

Which leaves possible motivations for killing him as: killing him to get rid of him... which, if we take the board game analogy, is not a guaranteed win (we didn't here anyone saying that killing the fisher won the game... I assume if the fisher were to die... if he CAN die... the game would become a melee with no clear winner)

We have seen no evidence that Rand has EVER turned. As Callandor said, Ishmael can lie. If it were remotely possible that he could turn, dont you think we would have seen that mentioned in the Portal Stones incident? For comparison, it IS possible one of Rand's friends will betray him (Mat thinks so... but I dont think it will be Mat who ends up doing the betraying...), but Rand never considers turning, even when rotting away, he realizes in a distant way he was born to fight the banner of the dark one.

On the Dark One's abilities as far as resurection goes... it does seem the Dark One is far more powerful now than ever before, including the Age of Legends. In the AOL, he enhanced vices, made people less agreable, that sort of thing. Now, he's raising the dead, changing weather, and bubbles of evil are horrifying the world. The Dark One has a phyical Avatar. Is it possible, that underneath the Seal the Bore has been expanding and growing, and the reason the Seals are breaking is because they are simply no longer large enough for the hole? If so, I would not put it out of the question that the Dark One COULD resurect Rand, but the motive is beyond me. It is certain it would take great effort. That said, I don't think the ghosts we've seen are the Dark One's doing...I think they are an illustration of the instabilty of the world and the pattern. But I dont think we've seen the extent of the DO's new power, and I think it will be interesting to learn.

17

Callandor: 2004-11-10

**On the Dark One's abilities as far as resurection goes... it does seem the Dark One is far more powerful now than ever before, including the Age of Legends.**

He isn't. The seals are surely failing, and the hole that allows him to touch the world is getting larger/more open to him; however there still is some blockage. Not until all the seals are gone will he be back to AoL power.

**The Dark One has a phyical Avatar.**

Big leap there; Shaidar Haran could very easily be a corrupted/enhanced Myrddraal.

**Is it possible, that underneath the Seal the Bore has been expanding and growing, and the reason the Seals are breaking is because they are simply no longer large enough for the hole?**

Very interesting, but then the Dark One would be getting more power, and that has been attested by Demandred to not be the case.

** TITLE: Lord of Chaos

CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Message

Even after all his visits—and the first lay well over three thousand years in the past—Demandred felt awe. Here he could sense the Bore, the hole drilled through so long ago to where the Great Lord had lain imprisoned since the moment of Creation. Here the Great Lord's presence washed over him. Physically, this place was no closer to the Bore than any other in the world, but here there was a thinness in the Pattern that allowed it to be sensed.

Demandred came as close to smiling as he ever did. What fools they were who opposed the Great Lord. *Oh, the Bore was still blocked, ~though more tenuously than when he had wakened from his long sleep and broken free of his own prison in it. Blocked, but larger than when he woke.~ Still not so large as when he had been cast into it with his fellows at the end of the War of Power, but at each visit since waking, a little wider.* Soon the blockage would be gone, and the Great Lord would reach out across the earth again. Soon would come the Day of Return. And he would rule the world for all time. Under the Great Lord, of course. And with those of the other Chosen who survived, also of course.**

18

Daekyras: 2004-11-11

So Rand is important because he's the fisher mentioned in a GAME that somehow manages to be a perfect re-enactment of how the Creators Champion and the Dark One battle it out through the ages. Oh, I see, an excellent point. I'm sorry I never saw that before.

Rands Soul just happened to have all the right characteristics and was not chosen by the creator. The wheel wove that path on it's own? Why would the wheel need to weave that path for the dragon? Why would the wheel need a Dragon? If the Creator left us to "choose" our own path why are the characters so stuck to the wheel? They have no choice, they do as they're woven to do.

Lanfear(mierin?) drilled the Bore that allowed the Dark One to touch the world. Then there was a big War. If the Dark One was so Powerful would his touching the World not have been enough? Why is it so important not to allow him to touch the world again? They got on OK the last time.

Why can't they just bore another hole next to the original?

19

Callandor: 2004-11-12

**Rands Soul just happened to have all the right characteristics and was not chosen by the creator. The wheel wove that path on it's own? Why would the wheel need to weave that path for the dragon? Why would the wheel need a Dragon? If the Creator left us to "choose" our own path why are the characters so stuck to the wheel? They have no choice, they do as they're woven to do.**

What are you talking about? Of course there is choice; that is why the Heroes of the Horn even exist! Granted, the choice people have is small, but over time and the number of people, those choices add up.

The sum of those choices, lead to diversions from the Pattern's plan for the Age. When this reaches a certain point, a ta'veren is spun out to correct the balance.

The characters are so "stuck" to the Wheel, because the characters you are talking about are ta'veren or going off of very powerful ta'veren effects. The entire reason they are there, is to correct the balance; to put things back onto the Pattern's plan.

**Lanfear(mierin?) drilled the Bore that allowed the Dark One to touch the world. Then there was a big War. If the Dark One was so Powerful would his touching the World not have been enough? Why is it so important not to allow him to touch the world again? They got on OK the last time.**

Do you want a world free of the touch of the Dark One? Or do you want a world where the possiblity of him breaking free are so much higher?

The Dark One can touch the world, and it will be "fine"; however that's like saying pouring gasoline around a campsite and making a trail to the fire, is going to be perfectly ok.

With the Dark One touching the world, he can influence events more directly, and make it so his escape is that much more probable. That -- of course -- is a bad thing.

**Why can't they just bore another hole next to the original?**

That I'm not sure of either. Best I can say is that they simply don't have the tools or the capacity to make them again.

20

MeroTZ: 2004-11-12

Callandor, I appreciate the input, especially the Demandred quote. I forgot he made the comparison. Though, I do think that if all the seals were removed, the Dark One would be FAR stronger than he was in the AOL.

Daekyras, you seem to be ignoring the value of symbolism in this setting.

"So Rand is important because he's the fisher mentioned in a GAME that somehow manages to be a perfect re-enactment of how the Creators Champion and the Dark One battle it out through the ages. Oh, I see, an excellent point. I'm sorry I never saw that before"

Exactly. The game is a symbol, and I believe the detail spent describing it implies a very great meaning.

"Rands Soul just happened to have all the right characteristics and was not chosen by the creator. The wheel wove that path on it's own? Why would the wheel need to weave that path for the dragon? Why would the wheel need a Dragon? If the Creator left us to "choose" our own path why are the characters so stuck to the wheel? They have no choice, they do as they're woven to do."

No, they do have choices. The Pattern conforms itself, and reacts to their choices. It bends itself, not to their will, but to change events around the characters to match its design. You seem to be equating action of the Creator to action of the Pattern... which doesn't seem applicable.

"Lanfear(mierin?) drilled the Bore that allowed the Dark One to touch the world. Then there was a big War. If the Dark One was so Powerful would his touching the World not have been enough? Why is it so important not to allow him to touch the world again? They got on OK the last time."

They did NOT get on OK last time! The world was on the brink of falling to the armies of the shadow, with only one real chance of victory. The danger is not that the Dark One will touch the world again (he already is...) but that he will be completely free. The effects the DO currently has are nothing compared to his true power.

"Why can't they just bore another hole next to the original?"

Now theres a good question! But whatever the reason, I think we can assume it can't be done, otherwise it would have been, or that it requires something no longer available in the current age... such as a circle of 72? Maybe this could be the setup for the Last Battle, Rand organizing an desperate attempt by the Shadow to bypass the seals by boring a new hole?

21

Reddrgn: 2004-11-15

I think that RJ could be using the game to hint at the direction he is taking the story, like an easter egg for us to look at and speculate about. But the Easter Egg is not the whole story, the core of the story (the ending) is still hidden inside.

As to why Rand is so important and why there is a Dragon Reborn. The pattern weaved by the Wheel of Time is part of the Age Lace that began when the creator first cast his will upon existence. As the pattern has progressed, it has evolved and changed as life does. It probably started out with needing a champion to battle someone evil in the first turning of the wheel and the need became greater with each turning. It requiring a hero, then an even greater Hero and so forth. Thus at this stage in the pattern the Dragon is necessary and has become a permanent part of the pattern so to speak. That same theory includes the other Heroes as well.

As for drilling a new bore, I believe that it took a combined effort of several (don't remember exact number) male and female channelers combined to bore the first hole. Also, where the bore is just happens to be the only spot in the pattern where the hole could be bored through to the Dark Ones prison, due to the 'thinness'in the pattern.

** TITLE: Lord of Chaos

CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Message

Even after all his visits—and the first lay well over three thousand years in the past—Demandred felt awe. Here he could sense the Bore, the hole drilled through so long ago to where the Great Lord had lain imprisoned since the moment of Creation. Here the Great Lord's presence washed over him. Physically, this place was no closer to the Bore than any other in the world, but here there was a thinness in the Pattern that allowed it to be sensed. **

Hope this helps, but this could all just be the ramblings of a WOT Junkie.

22

jehanderiel: 2004-11-15

The difficulty with this theory is this: Shiaine's plan is falling apart even though she does not believe this. Hanlon has already decided to kill all the friends of the Dark in Caemlyn. (This is because he believes that Shiaine tried to kill him, and also because he believes he was being used for his skills. 'How would you like a queen?'... and then being told that he was just going to be used for 'knife work', and also thinking about who he would kill before he left.

23

Aiel Finn: 2004-11-16


"Why can't they just bore another hole next to the original?"

I may be wrong on this, but I belive, from the way that the bore is described, that it is impossible to bore another "beside" the original. The bore is not in any one location. The place at SG is just a thinning in the pattern where it can be percieved. The books say that that place in not nearer or farther from the bore than any other place in the world. Becuse of this there is no "beside" to drill at.

24

Callandor: 2004-11-16

**Callandor, I appreciate the input, especially the Demandred quote. I forgot he made the comparison. Though, I do think that if all the seals were removed, the Dark One would be FAR stronger than he was in the AOL.**

Based on what? What quote do you have that even hints at this?

**No, they do have choices. The Pattern conforms itself, and reacts to their choices. It bends itself, not to their will, but to change events around the characters to match its design. You seem to be equating action of the Creator to action of the Pattern... which doesn't seem applicable.**

Some events the Pattern conforms; only to those where the little free will that people have is excercised. Other events, if not taken wholeheartedly right away, will be forced upon (see Rand with not saying he is the Dragon Reborn for books 1-3).

**Maybe this could be the setup for the Last Battle, Rand organizing an desperate attempt by the Shadow to bypass the seals by boring a new hole?**

Giving the Dark One ~another~ way to touch the world? Somehow I doubt that will help at all.

25

Daekyras: 2004-11-17

Ok, I hope people don't think I'm being awkward for the sake of it! It's just there are some things I'm not all that sure of.

In the Dragon reborn, Chapter "threads in the pattern" Perrin asks Moiraine about the pattern revolving around Rand. He says that some of the things that happened were Evil, ie fires and wells going dry. Moiraine says that " the creator is Good, the Dark-one evil" but that the wheel is neither. It weaves as it will and must have two colours to make a pattern (Good and Evil). Perrin then mentions how he would like to think that MEN caused the good and evil through choice but he felt dejected that the Wheel did it for them and they had no choice. The wheel doesn't care.

THe two things I want to know are why moiraine would suggest men have no choice and why she would call the creator good, if he doesn't interfere. Would that not make him indifferent?

I know that Rand is the Dragon, ahem its the major point of the first four books at least, but I just want to know why he is so important. The character in the game(sha rah) can't change voluntarily, it has to be controlled by one of the two players. Why is it so important that Rand do?

26

Saldean Farm Boy: 2004-11-18

The DO wants to turn Rand to turn the Lights champion. If it was just about strength in the power to free the DO he has had thousands of years of collecting Dread Lords that could link and channel him out. It is about control of the Pattern, the DO can't be free until he controls the pattern. To gain control of the pattern there must be a conflict. Each side of the conflict must have their chapmions. Rand is there for the Light, the DO calls his own shots.

27

Callandor: 2004-11-18

**THe two things I want to know are why moiraine would suggest men have no choice and why she would call the creator good, if he doesn't interfere. Would that not make him indifferent?**

I don't see how creating the entire world and all the possiblities of it, can make him anything but good ;) The outcome, sure he's indifferent about it; but he creates, the Dark One destorys. Good and evil.

28

Jane-Sedai: 2004-11-22

I'm just not sure that is the way it will play out, it sounds to much like star wars to me.. turning anakin skywalker to the dark side by manipulating him through his friends???? Sounds entirely to done before, and I don't think RJ would go that path.

Also I am not sure that it is reasonable to presume anything regarding the DO powers as I think that RJ likes suprises, if we can predict it on this web site then it is too obvious in the first place.