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he Dark One's powers

by Great Lord of the Dark: 2004-11-11 | 4.27 out of 10 (11 votes)

Previous Categories: Plans of the Dark One

When Lews Therin's seals were new, the Dark One had zero influence in the world. When all seven are broken, he will have unlimited influence to affect reality as he sees fit. So what can he do as each seal breaks in turn?

Firstly, there are not only stages of seals breaking, but also the stage in which the seals became fragile. All we know for sure about this is that they became fragile before EotW. I suspect Ishamael's partial freedom every millenia eithar was the cause, or he used that freedom to work at weakening the seals.

Whatever. By EotW, Fain had been altered, Slayer had been created, the Dark One's eyes searched for Rand, and to paraphrase Siuan: "What seemed evil ten years ago is mere caprice now," and Lan: "Strange things can happen this close to the Blight."The Dark One's influence has been noted by this time frame. That is the first effect, and I believe due to the fragility of the seals, not to any of them breaking.

At the end of EotW, one seal is broken, but Aginor and Balthamel had already been released. Either the seal broke releasing them, or their breaking free broke the seal. By early tGH, all Forsaken were free, and set about marking their place in the world. Still, only one seal had broken, as we see Domon's and Turak's intact later.

At the end of tGH, two more seals have broken. There are no indications of what effect this had on the Dark One's powers, except that Lanfear points out that in the Bore, you can bask in the Dark One's presence. Oh, and bubbles of evil begin to target ta'veren.

A fourth seal breaks in the FoH, and Nynaeve is chastised about it. Immediately, the weather stalls in deep summer. Within weeks, two Forsaken dead 16 months earlier are resurrected. Bubbles of Evil now surface around the world.

No further seals have broken to our knowledge, but the Dark One has also mindtrapped two Forsaken, sent Shaidar Haran into the World, resurrected Moridin, and perhaps Cyndane. Ghosts have begun appearing in locations near ta'veren and other pivotal characters.

What happens when another seal breaks?

Every seal broken increases the scope of the Dark One's powers, towards the end of the scale where he can do anything.

It is feasible to imagine that bubbles of evil will be common, ghosts will be in every town and village, the limits on transmigration will diminish, the Dark One could be strong enough to fix the seasons regardless of the Bowl of Winds, the Blight could advance rapidly, Shaidar Haran could be free of his link to Shayol Ghul.

Two more break, and we're an inch from the Dark One having full control of reality.

I don't see how anyone could argue against the Dark One's powers being on a sliding scale from 0% to 100% control of reality. That being the case, what you think he can and can't do today or at any moment, is about to change in Book 11.

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Comments

Tamyrlin: 2005-01-14

(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
First off, i wouldn't say that a seven-sealed Dark One has no influence over the world. The Blight still exists, after all, and it grows throughout the millennia.
Second, and this one kills me every time someone forgets it: the Dark One had 100-110 YEARS of no-seal time of "unlimited influence to affect reality as he sees fit." A century or more! If all it took to stop the seasons was less than half of the Seals being removed and a period of a few months, then why nothing other than a century-long social Collapse?
There's obviously been a progression of influence in this turning, but it doesn't explain the equivalent lack in the last. Something else must be in play, either then or now. An unknown variable, so to speak.

Aendur: 2005-01-14

Well, as we know, the Bore isn't a terribly "large" hole in the pattern (metaphysically speaking). The Dark One, who has what I'll call a great deal of metaphysical "bulk", is unable to completely free himself by this. Think of it as a rabbit hole: you can't get your whole body in, but you CAN reach part of your arm in. The Dark One, unable to do enough in the AoL, worked on widenening his rabbit hole from both sides (assuming he can do anything to his prison directly, as I tend to think he can) which caused the more gradual decline of society that we saw in the AoL. He was working on this throughout the War of Power, so by the time they sealed him off, the hole constricting his "bulk" was larger than it had been (though still not near big enough for him to break free).

Now, we know the Seals worked imperfectly, as they only partially protected Aginor and Balthamel, and Ishy was in and out in a cycle. Ishamael, specifically, I think helped work on widening the Bore (metaphysically only, most likely), and the cycle showed this to some extent. Thats why the DO is getting more power, more rapidly, this time. His hole is wider, and the Seals perhaps did some work widening the Bore unintentionally, like the tension between your fingers allowing you to flick someone harder than otherwise. When the resistance stops, the force being resisted is stronger.

ImmDude123456: 2005-01-14

I don't necessarily see it that way. For instance in the AoL wasn't the dark one free during the whole war. What I'm trying to get across is if he did as you say have complete control over reality at that point then why was there still a resistance and more importantly why did he become resealed in the bore?

Callandor: 2005-01-14

**When all seven are broken, he will have unlimited influence to affect reality as he sees fit.**

False. He regains the control he had in the AoL. If he had unlimited control of reality, he would destroy it. He has yet to do this.

**Immediately, the weather stalls in deep summer.**

Which was said to be a straining of the Dark One's powers.

**Ghosts have begun appearing in locations near ta'veren and other pivotal characters.**

It is unknown if that is an effect of the Dark One (simply your opinion).

**It is feasible to imagine that bubbles of evil will be common, ghosts will be in every town and village, the limits on transmigration will diminish, the Dark One could be strong enough to fix the seasons regardless of the Bowl of Winds, the Blight could advance rapidly, Shaidar Haran could be free of his link to Shayol Ghul.**

Strange that this did not happen when the Dark One was at his highest power in the AoL.

And again, dead walking is not known to be a Dark effect.

Also, Shaidar Haran's link is not known to be a cause of the seals, or if it is in his desire to sever it for the Dark One (he could want a more free reign, but not through the seals being present).

**Two more break, and we're an inch from the Dark One having full control of reality.**

Already addressed that.

terez: 2005-01-14

This is the "unknown variable", the "equivalent lack in the (Collapse):

The DO must have human assistance to influence the world directly, to give him more power. The years of the Collapse were spent recruiting people slowly, either through dreams, or people who, either out of curiosity or lust for power, came to "bask in his presence" at the Bore. Previous to the Drilling, no one in this Age had even heard of the DO. Even his agent, Ba'alzamon, did not yet know his destiny.

Obviously, the prison that contained the DO before the Drilling was done right, most likely by a previous Dragon. His influence was contained completely, and eventually forgotten. Either the DO created the thinness in the pattern from inside his prison, or the need for balance in the Pattern slowly allowed it to grow.

The seals put in place by LTT and the Companions obviously was not done right. It might have worked with the women in the circle, maybe not even then. But his prison was not made absolute. Perhaps during the attack, Ishmael stepped outside of time and avoided entrapment. The Blight has remained all these years, Darkfriends continued to be recruited, and Shadowspawn waged war with only Ba'alzamon to lead them. Perhaps the seals only prevented the DO from directly affecting events, and Ishmael was free to further his agenda and directly access the DO's power. And, by the way, Fain's POV clearly states that it was Ba'alzamon that distilled his mind.

So, the seven-sealed DO is not at all powerless.

What will it take to render him powerless? The thinness in the Pattern must be healed completely, and his memory eradicated.

What will the the sealless DO be able to do? I think that all depends on the actions of his human agents. It probably won't be much different from the conditions of the War of Power. One difference this time is that the humans who fight on the side of Light have been geared to fight the Dark for an Age, and are not ignorant of the DO. Another difference is that the Darkfriends have been geared to fight the Light for an age, and to pursue their ambitions through the DO's power.

Ishmael used Shai'tan's power, not his own, to heal Lews Therin after the seals were in place.

In conclusion, I think that the seals are not as great as they are craked up to be, and their demise is not nearly as disastrous as it is cracked up to be; merely a signal that it is time for the Dragon to have a chance to do it right. The Age of Illusions was indeed under the Shadow; the seals seem to have been an illusion that it was not. Furthermore, I think that LTT's presence in Rand's head is a remnant of an uncompleted destiny. There is no existence without the existence of the DO, so Rand cannot destroy the DO, only remove his influence from the world. And first, the rubble must be cleared, either by force or by the natural (?) disintegration they have shown so far.

bigjellybeans: 2005-01-14

It is true that from Teotw to crossroads of twilight things have gotten worse that is easily seen to be the DO work. But the seven seals broken will not give the DO "full control over reality", although the #^*$ will hit the fan after that.

: 2005-01-15

Two responses :

First, when all the seals are broken, the Dark One will be able to reach through the Bore, as the Bore is unhindered. That does not mean, however, that the seals all being broken will mean Randland will face the full fury and might of the Dark One, rather just what they all faced during the Age of Legends. Remember, it's just a hole in his prison, and the goal of the Shadow both in the War of Power and present times is to rip open the hole enough to let the Dark One free completely. The Forsaken have never shown an active interest in breaking the seals; they seem to accept that as an inevitability. Ishamael/Moridin is the one working hardest to free the Dark One, and the rest are struggling to set themselves up for power after he breaks out.

As to the AoL facing a century and a half of an unsealed Bore, remember, although Randlanders have made some previously unknown advances, not all of them small, they're still miles behind in almost every area compared to the AoL'ers. So what if the Dark One had changed the weather in the AoL? They had at least one bowl of winds, and maybe a lot more, and plenty of channelers with the ability and knowledge to use them. As for other things, we know they had some method for traveling to the stars, so who knows what else they had. The Dark One took his toll, but it's my gut feeling that for most things he came up with the AoL'ers had a response. Dozens of Forsaken and Shocklance equipped trollocs could roll across Randland as fast as they could run in present times, but the AoL was so far beyond what Randland is presently that what they know and remember is akin to how 14th century earth would look upon a vision/memory of our present day.

Dorindha: 2005-01-16

I predict at some point soon the DO will be completely unsealed, but this does not mean he will be "free", as Frenzy points out - he will just have a bigger hole in his prison. I also don't know how long he will be unsealed - it might just be as part of a bigger resealing operation.

clarkkd: 2005-01-16

I don't think that all the forsaken where freed early book2 but definetly by the end of book2 begining of book3.

Seals 2 and 3 where not broken until the end of book 2, which was end of autumn/begining of winter. The forsaken did not start taking over countries until winter.

a dragonburned fool: 2005-01-18

For the Bubbles of Evil and the ghosts occur when the Bore is yet not unsealed, while there is no indication about their existence in AoL, and because both phaenomenons seem too much uncontrolled and unsentient manifestation of DO's essence, I'll suggest that after the fall of the last Seal the BoE and ghost will be completely cancelled, and instead of that DO will cause some fully controlled actions. Now Bubbles and ghosts rather exist because DO still cannot control his emanations coming to the world.

Oatman: 2005-01-18

Just an idea of my own here, but I think that how far the Dark One can influence the world is measured by how far Shaidar Haran can travel from Shayol Ghul. If I remember the POV correctly SH says that he couldnt travel from SG at all at first, but has been able to venture further over time. I also believe that he says he must return to SG after a short period of time.

If we relate this to the DO's powers over a distance, he couldnt influence at all until SH first appears on the scene, and is slowly gaining more influence, but currently can not reach outside of the vicinity of his prison for long without feeling the strain.

terez: 2005-01-18

Aendur, you comment that "Ishy was in and out in a cycle" and that the "cycle" showed that he had a hand in helping to widen the DO's escape route. I think he certainly helped, but I am assuming that you refer to the cycle theory of Aran the Ogier, who was mentioned in the BWB in Ishmael's profile. Because Aran had discovered writings attrubited to AS who lived during the Breaking that mentioned sightings of Ishmael up to forty years after the Bore was sealed, Aran "made observations based on cycles of various multiples of forty years without discovering any indications that one of the Forsaken was loose in the world at those intervals." It goes on to say that Aran became doubtful of his own thesis. Other sightings were mentioned, but no regularity to the appearances was apparent. Thus, no cycle. Perhaps Ishmael was only confined to the proximity of SG during his times of non-appearance. His POV has yet to indicate, like some of the other Forsaken, that he was ever sealed at all.

bigjellybeans: 2005-01-20

I think the weight issue of cuendillar can be speculated by looking at past encounters with it. The most obvious are the disks that seal the Do. A disk about the size of a mans hand. RJ never said anything in the books about the disks being heavy when someone held it.

Another possible theory is that the weight of heartstone is proportional to the original material being transformed. For example 10 lbs of iron will be 10 lbs of cuendillar.

Great Lord of the Dark: 2005-01-20

I will argue that in the last days of the AOL, when the Bore was a little larger than it is today, it is a known fact that LTT and Latra Posae KNEW that the Dark One's victory was imminent. For all of the power at their disposal, they were each planning last-ditch efforts to stop the Dark One, because he would soon be unstoppable. THEY KNEW THIS AS FACT.

So when the seventh seal breaks, if things go back to how they were at the time of the sealing, that really means that the situation will be that the Dark One is on the verge of becoming unstoppable. Now we can argue whether on the verge means a matter of hours, days, or even weeks, but I doubt, given the desperation of LTT and Latra Posae in the last days of the AOL, that the DO's victory would take more than a month after that last seal is broken. I think it'll be no more than three days, myself.

So while I see some nit-picking about the phrasing I used, whether his eventual remaking the world in his image takes place three minutes or three days after the last seal is broken, he will still have the power to remake the world and break the wheel of time. If you're arguing otherwise, then he's the weakest antithesis of a Creator I've ever heard of.

So the idea remains, the Dark One's powers have increased with every seal broken, and will increase even more in the next book. So don't be too sure your concepts of transmigration will always apply as they currently do.

Aendur: 2005-01-21

Terez, I believe I recall what you're talking about, but I was reffering to the much longer cycle of every 1000 years (roughly) that coincided with the Trolloc Wars, the War of the Hundred Years, and now the disintegration of the Seals, etc (and his final freeing)

By the way, bigjellybeans, I think you posted in the wrong thread accidentally.

Callandor: 2005-01-22

**I will argue that in the last days of the AOL, when the Bore was a little larger than it is today, it is a known fact that LTT and Latra Posae KNEW that the Dark One's victory was imminent. For all of the power at their disposal, they were each planning last-ditch efforts to stop the Dark One, because he would soon be unstoppable. THEY KNEW THIS AS FACT.**

What? So the last ditch efforts weren't because they were attacking the source, to avoid the very-long drawn out war, it was because he was about to get free right then and there?

**So when the seventh seal breaks, if things go back to how they were at the time of the sealing, that really means that the situation will be that the Dark One is on the verge of becoming unstoppable. Now we can argue whether on the verge means a matter of hours, days, or even weeks, but I doubt, given the desperation of LTT and Latra Posae in the last days of the AOL, that the DO's victory would take more than a month after that last seal is broken. I think it'll be no more than three days, myself.**

And again, he had 100+ years of unchallanged freedom to get free.

**So while I see some nit-picking about the phrasing I used, whether his eventual remaking the world in his image takes place three minutes or three days after the last seal is broken, he will still have the power to remake the world and break the wheel of time. If you're arguing otherwise, then he's the weakest antithesis of a Creator I've ever heard of.**

Yet again, 100+ YEARS. Not seconds, minutes, days, weeks, months -- but YEARS without the seven Seals holding him back. But now, when he loses them he will be able to remake the world, and those other 100 years were just, what, practice?

Oatman: 2005-01-23

Callandor, I agree with you for the most, but the DO only had 10 years of freedom in the AoL, not 100

EotW prolouge:

"Ten years, Betrayer," Lews Therin said softly, the soft sound of steel being bared. "Ten years your founl master has wracked the world. And now this. I will. . . ."

So its probable that he was gaining in power and that the last ditch efforts were necessary to stop him, however this may have just been to stop the shadow from winning, taking out the leader so to speak. The shadow could have won without the DO being able to reshape reality.

I personally believe it will be years after the last seal breaks to give the DO that much power over the world, however I also believe that if Rand dosnt unite the nation's before the last seal breaks the DO's army will consume the world, thus making a shadow victory, and many years after this victory the DO will be able to reshape reality.

terez: 2005-01-23

Not practice, Callandor, but preparation. Not to contradict anything you said, but Great Lord of the Dark does have a bit of a point. It stands to reason that the DO will have more power, now that I have thought about it, when he is released this time, because his minions have been up to their ears in preperation for about three and a half eons, now. They admittedly lack the spirit of teamwork, but they have been succesful at implementing the elements of chaos that the DO has commanded, one way or another. And what in the world are Shaidar Haran and Moridin up to? They are obviously working together, and both represent strong elements that were definitely not present in the war of Power. Oh, I know Ishmael was there, but Moridin is obviously more than Ishmael. Something to think on. Also, gotcha on the longer cycle, Aendur, and it seems to me that Ishmael's limitations during those in-between times were similar to Shaidar Haran's, if not exactly the same.

Aiel Finn: 2005-01-24

One way to think of it is that Lanfear punched a small hole in the DO's prision. This allowed some of his evil to escape, and gave him a hole to begin working on. Over the next 100 years or so, he continued to expand this hole until he was almost able to "climb" through it and take over. LTT's patch just covered this hole, but not perfectly given the existance of the blight, etc.. When the last seal is broken, the DO will again have the hole back to the size it was when he was sealed. This means that it will start the clock to the end of the Wheel at the point it was when LTT and the 100 Companions sealed him at the end of the AoL. This probably means a time of months or weeks until the DO is unstoppable.

Great Lord of the Dark: 2005-01-24

Callandor, I'm having a little trouble figuring out your logic, so let's look at this in a little detail.

Mierin drills the Bore. It's very small. A pinprick in the pattern, most likely. "Like a small finger hole in a prison wall... it was large enough for him to be able to touch the world." And then all the base emotions of men were manipulated. Evil behaviour increased. This lasted for 100-110 years. Now maybe this was th eextent of what the Dark One could do through that finger hole, but I submit that had he just gone crazy with weather manipulation or other big impact changes, the Aes Sedai of the time would have discovered the source and dealt with him as a unified force, and won. I believe he bided his time, until his force of humans could deal with and/or distract the humans who would likely oppose him. I say he did not use his powers to their fullest during this period. He gathered his forces and prepared a surprise attack on humanity.

The next phase was the War of Power, which began when his minions felt strong enough to attempt to free the Dark One completely and take control. The war went in their favour for three years, and they conquered large parts of the World. Well enough for Sammael and Demandred to switch sides. The Dragon's leadership (and likely the militarization of the Light forces) allowed the Light to retake much of that territory in the next four years. The eighth year was a stalemate. In the last two years, the shadow advanced slowly at first, then with increasing speed. In those final years, the Shadow seemed on a path to inevitable victory.

I'd bet that when the War of Power began, the Dark One finally did use his powers to their full extent, whatever they were at the time. When the Dragon fought back, he was able to close the gap between their strength and the Shadow's and actually surpassed them for a time. But during that time, the Bore was still growing, allowing the Dark One to touch the world more, until his influence was great enough that it could not be compensated for by the Light's channelers.

An example could be the weather. If the Dark One fixed the seasons in place, there were skilled channelers and ter'angreal to set them right as soon as the change was detected. Later in the war, all their efforts would not be enough to undo what the Dark One had done, as he had more strength to use.

Whether the Bore was growing linearly, geometrically, or exponentially faster, it was obvious to the Dragon and the Light leadership that his armies strength would soon be enough to overpower the combined strength of the entire Age of Legends Light armies. Armies commanded by Forsaken were near overrunning the Light. The end could be as little as matter of months. By that I assume the last resistance is wiped out, not that the armies have begun being overrun. That is the situation in the tenth and final year of the War of Power. There's more mention of armies than of his powers, so admittedly, I've inferred a lot from the advances and retreats of the war. At this point, you could please tell me if you agree with my assessment so far.

In the current Age, there are no mass armies of channelers, and their skill and power level is far less than in the Age of Legends. I presume, it will require a far smaller Shadow army and far fewer resources to combat whatever Rand fields. The Shadow appears to have the Seanchan, Trollocs, and perhaps one faction or another of channelers aiding them, perhaps unwittingly. In this environment, I think the Dark One's use of powers can sway the odds much more dramatically than they did against Lews Therin. So his control of reality (weather for instance)could be uncombattable today in far less time than the Dragon had estimated at the end of the War of Power.

I've used some basic assumptions in all this, and this research has made me consider that they may be false.

For instance, We also know as of Book 6, that the Bore is not so large yet as it was at the end of the War of Power. "Oh, the Bore was still blocked, though more tenuously than when he had wakened from his long sleep and broken free of his own prison in it. Blocked, but larger than when he woke. Still not so large as when he had been cast into it with his fellows at the end of the War of Power, but at each visit since waking, a little wider. Soon the blockage would be gone, and the Great Lord would reach out across the earth again."

Now either Demandred's visits have been infrequent, or the Bore grows regardless of whether a seal breaks or not. I'm not sure how this affects my ideas yet, but I'm sure it will. Also note that Demandred is confident the blockage will be gone soon. I can't be sure he means it will be gone regardless of the fate of the seals, or if he plans to break them somehow, but the idea that they could break, like Nynaeve's did, with no outside influence could undermine many of my ideas. I'm curious what you all think of it. I do feel that regardless of that, when the seventh seal breaks, the blockage will be gone. If you disagree, please explain why.

The last thing to note from Demandred, is the line that when the blockage is gone, his master will reach out across the world again. It seems he, at least agrees that when that blockage is gone, the Dark One's powers will be very influential in the world, what I have termed as 'control of reality.'

Callandor: 2005-01-25

**Callandor, I agree with you for the most, but the DO only had 10 years of freedom in the AoL, not 100**

Wrong. He had over ~100 years of freedom~. The War of Power lasted 10 years, however.

**TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time

CHAPTER: The Wheel and the Pattern

This period of increasingly dark chaos lasted approximately one hundred years to one hundred ten years after the drilling of the bore, and was referred to as the Collapse by several very early sources. It certainly qualified for the name, as civilization did very nearly collapse, and the order and peace of the world of the Age of Legends certainly did.**

**TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time

CHAPTER: The Seven Seals

~After the hundred or so years of the Collapse and ten bloody years of conflict, the War of the Shadow was at an end.~ Though most of the world was still held for the shadow, many believed that without their leaders the Shadow's followers would falter, all Shadow-held lands would be easily reclaimed, and the Shadow would be extinguished completely. After all, the Dark One could no longer reach the world. Lews Therin Telamon, the Dragon, and the forces of Light had emerged victorious, or so it seemed. No one counted on the Dark One's counterstroke.**

100+ years of freedom. 100+ years without the seals. 100+ years of the control that he hasn't even gotten ~yet~.

And he still could not break free.

**Not practice, Callandor, but preparation. Not to contradict anything you said, but Great Lord of the Dark does have a bit of a point. It stands to reason that the DO will have more power, now that I have thought about it, when he is released this time, because his minions have been up to their ears in preperation for about three and a half eons, now.**

Oh please!

1. Only Ishamael has been free for 3500+ years, and of that only around 120.

2. His minions, except for Ishamael, are pretty much incompotent, arrogant, powerful channelers. That's it.

3. Preparation? So, he was just practicing for those 100 or so free years, and all that was for show, because he wants to be free now in this Age, instead of right away....

Then, please, indulge me with an explanation to this:

**TITLE: The Path of Daggers

CHAPTER: 2 - Unweaving

He seized the True Power without though, the saa billowing black across his sight. His fingers tightened in the wrought-iron grille across the window; the metal groaned, twisting, not from his grip but from the tendrils of the True Power, drawn from the Great Lord himself, that wreathed around the grillework, flexing as he flexed his hand in anger. The Great Lord would not be pleased. He had strained from his prison to touch the world enough to fix the seasons in place. *He was impatient to touch the world more, to shatter the void that contained him, and he would not be pleased.* Rage enveloped Moridin, blood pounding in his ears. A moment past, he had not cared where those women went, but now.... Somewhere far from here. People fleeing ran as far and as fast as they could. Somewhere they felt safe. No use sending Madic to ask questions, no use squeezing anyone here; they would not have been fool enough to leave anyone behind alive who knew their destination. Not to Tar Valon. To al'Thor? To that band of rebel Aes Sedai? In all three places he had eyes, some that did not know they served him. All would serve him, before the end. He would not allow chance slips to spoil his plans now.**

He obviously, VERY obviously, ~wants~ to be free. Why put up all the events in the AoL for planning in this Age?

**They are obviously working together, and both represent strong elements that were definitely not present in the war of Power. Oh, I know Ishmael was there, but Moridin is obviously more than Ishmael.**

? No, the only things different from Moridin over Ishamael is:

1. He's younger.

2. He doesn't have his glowing eyes.

3. He is the only one that can channel the TP (instead of all of them).

4. He is Nae'blis.

Where's the great overpowering element to this? He can lead the Forsaken, great. Other then that, everything was the same in the AoL with Ishamael.

Shaidar Haran is even more of a qunadry. The Dark One has less power then he had in the AoL since he is still sealed away, yet he can create this enhanced Myrddraal that has some very interesting things at its disposal. Why isn't he in the AoL?

**I believe he bided his time, until his force of humans could deal with and/or distract the humans who would likely oppose him. I say he did not use his powers to their fullest during this period. He gathered his forces and prepared a surprise attack on humanity.**

The Dark One wants to get free of his prison. Who wants to argue this? He's been trapped ever since creation; I hate being in a phone booth too long. Biding his time? You're telling me that when the Dark One gets a golden opprotunity (and anyone that says the Drilling was anything but that is missing something), he isn't going to pounce on it will all his force, at the time when NO ONE KNEW WHAT HE WAS?? The time for a surprise attack is right at the Drilling; not 100+ years later when things have been going down to crap.

**I'd bet that when the War of Power began, the Dark One finally did use his powers to their full extent, whatever they were at the time.**

So, why is he pulling out surprises now, in THIS Age, if he was using full effect in the previous one?

**But during that time, the Bore was still growing, allowing the Dark One to touch the world more, until his influence was great enough that it could not be compensated for by the Light's channelers.**

Excuse me, what? Where is that quote?

**At this point, you could please tell me if you agree with my assessment so far.**

I really don't. The history part is lifted right from the BWB (and quite unneccessary), but the implication that the Bore had been growing is unknown to me in the books.

**Now either Demandred's visits have been infrequent, or the Bore grows regardless of whether a seal breaks or not.**

That quote is not refering to the Bore; it's for the Seals and them failing.

**It seems he, at least agrees that when that blockage is gone, the Dark One's powers will be very influential in the world, what I have termed as 'control of reality.'**

Uh huh, it appears so, but you forgot to add the rest of the quote:

**Demandred came as close to smiling as he ever did. What fools they were who opposed the Great Lord. Oh, the Bore was still blocked, though more tenuously than when he had wakened from his long sleep and broken free of his own prison in it. Blocked, but larger than when he woke. Still not so large as when he had been cast into it with his fellows at the end of the War of Power, but at each visit since waking, a little wider. Soon the blockage would be gone, and the Great Lord would reach out across the earth again. Soon would come the Day of Return. And he would rule the world for all time. Under the Great Lord, of course. And with those of the other Chosen who survived, also of course.**

Where it's shown to be just common belief. "The Dark One will be free soon." "Soon he will do such and such."

And your word choice is very poor with it, and I directly pointed that out. The Dark One does not, and has never, controlled reality. Not ever. Control of reality implies that he can destroy it right then and there. He has never had that ability or he would have done so already. He can affect it to some degree, and with no seals it would seem to be obvious that he could affect it a bit more; but not control.

terez: 2005-01-26

Callandor, I think you misunderstood a few things, so let me clarify.

*1. Only Ishamael has been free for 3500+ years, and of that only around 120.*

Quote on the 120, please. It seems more likely he was confined to the area of Shayol Ghul during the times he was not so visible, overseeing the Shadowspawn, who continued the raids on the Borderlands.

*2. His minions, except for Ishamael, are pretty much incompetent, arrogant, powerful channelers. That's it.*

Those incompetent, arrogant, powerful channelers are not much more arrogant and incompetent than those who side against him. And don't forget about the countless Darkfriends. They have managed to accomplish quite a few dirty deeds.

*3. Preparation?*

I won't bother to quote the rest of that; it doesn't make any sense. During the Breaking and the Age of Illusions, here are a few of the DO's successes: the major upset of the balance of the Power that turns the Wheel itself; the culling of the Power from the human race; the culling of the human race itself, through the Breaking, the Trolloc Wars, and the War of the Hundred years (all those empty spaces on the map); the implementation of mistrust for all those who wield the power; the exile of the Ogier, for whatever perceived reason (there went a lot of wisdom); the corruption of an entire continent's agenda (the Seanchan), giving even those who fought the Dark a believable reason to further his cause; the enslavement of all those born with the Power in Seanchan; an extreme upset in balance between the genders, and therefore in the general balance of duality (harmony); the cultivation of the Black Ajah, along with a convenient disbelief in its existence; and countless other minor successes. I don't know what you call this, but I call it preparation. And yes, we all understand that the DO REALLY wants to be free. What I don't understand is why you supplied us with quotes to convince us. We know that. It takes time, and at the time of the sealing, he had not quite accomplished it, but was fervently working on it, and is still working on it. The question to ask is "What is the DO's agenda? What must he do to accomplish that agenda, besides slowly opening his prison?" His agenda is to Break the Wheel, Kill the Great Serpent, and remake the world in his own image. To do that, it would help to turn the Dragon. If he can't turn him, he must kill him. Then he must overwhelm the forces against him. And then, to break the Wheel, he would have to sever the Power that turns it. But that is for another theory.

As for the differences between Ishamael and Moridin:

*1. He's younger.* That always helps. Ishamael was insubstantial as Ba'alzamon, only being able to appear in dreams and visions. He now has flesh.

*2. He doesn't have his glowing eyes.* Those glowing eyes, and mouth, and the darkness that followed him, were all signs of weakness that he no longer has.

*3. He is the only one that can channel the TP* How is that not a big deal? He can do things not dreamed of before he was granted access to it. It may eventually cause his demise, but for now, he is a much more deadly weapon than before.

*4. He is Nae'blis* Again, how is that not a big deal? Lanfear used to mock him, now her soul is around his neck. He can force the Forsaken remaining to take chances that they previously would not have take.

Finally, Shaidar Haran seems to serve him. In aCoS, "Mindtrap", Shaidar Haran was sent to fetch Moghedien, and apply her cour'sourva, only to hand her and it over to Moridin. If SH is not serving Moridin, they are certainly equals. SH tells the Forsaken that he is the Hand of the Dark. A command from him should be taken as a direct command from the DO. If he and Moridin are equals, which they are, then that is quite a big difference.

That is all, for now.

Aiel Finn: 2005-01-26

Ishy could channel TP before he was transmigrated. This was why his eyes glowed, and why he could do such strange "channeling" like things. However, before becoming Nae'blis, all the chosen were allowed TP, now only Mordrin uses it.

Callandor: 2005-01-26

**Quote on the 120, please. It seems more likely he was confined to the area of Shayol Ghul during the times he was not so visible, overseeing the Shadowspawn, who continued the raids on the Borderlands.**

Wow.

Tell you what, save me the effort, and go here:

http://www.darkfriends.net/wheel/1_dar

k/1.1_forsaken1/1.1.8_ish-bound.html

Then come back and realize how bad a statement you made thinking the error was my fault.

**They have managed to accomplish quite a few dirty deeds.**

Please, name them. Most of them will be Forsaken scheming against themselves, or finally getting a clue for a few moments and scheming against Rand.

Sure the Light is rife with morons (where's the concept of balance if it wasn't?), but when the Forsaken are so feared by their reputations, then are failing quite miserably at doing what should be very simple things, what other context is there for them (minus Ishamael, and possibly Lanfear) besides incompotent, arrogant, strong channelers?

**During the Breaking and the Age of Illusions, here are a few of the DO's successes: the major upset of the balance of the Power that turns the Wheel itself;**

What? The only thing the Dark One did of any significance to the Power was the taint, and that was a last ditch, one shot event.

**the culling of the Power from the human race; the culling of the human race itself, through the Breaking, the Trolloc Wars, and the War of the Hundred years (all those empty spaces on the map);**

You really need to be brought up to speed on things don't you?

Culling of the Power from the human race you attribute to the DARK ONE? You don't attribute it to:

1. Aes Sedai standards being too high (their numbers have been falling of course due to this, and they are the ~only~ ones that mention "culling").

2. Aes Sedai seeking channelers to train only in a limited age group (I think it's like 12-18 or 19).

3. A ~vast~ majority of all the channelers on Earth are learners, not wilders. Meaning, they need to be found actively and brought to be trained, which the White Tower has never done until recently (they had the policy of they come to Tower).

4. The only male channelers are that of wilders.

5. Those wilders are gentled generally (or killed), by, guess who, AES SEDAI.

You're making claims and asserting "victories" to the Dark One that are nothing but stupid policies of the White Tower (granted suppressing male channelers from going insane is quite important, but you didn't mention that did you?).

Now as for the Trolloc Wars, and the Hundred Years War, do YOU know who did that? It wasn't the Dark One; not directly.

It was all being directed by Ishamael during one of his free periods, as the link shows.

**the implementation of mistrust for all those who wield the power**

Oh please, people have always been a little cautious of the One Power; it's natural. But, surprisingly given your reasons, people still go to Aes Sedai for help, people will trust in Aes Sedai, and people do rely on the One Power at times. Once again, not he Dark One's work.

**the exile of the Ogier, for whatever perceived reason (there went a lot of wisdom);**

??

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, or how it relates to the Dark One. If you mean why the Ogier have the Longing and prefer to be at their steddings, I still don't see this relation or how the Ogier are "exiled".

**the corruption of an entire continent's agenda (the Seanchan), giving even those who fought the Dark a believable reason to further his cause;**

Oh my god you found a correct reason! But... once again, attribute it to the wrong person. The one who did this was Ishamael; not the Dark One.

**the enslavement of all those born with the Power in Seanchan**

By those who can learn to use the Power, and this is far from the Dark One's actions since the creation of the a'dam was from a Seanchan Aes Sedai, and implimented then on. It's a cultural distrust of Aes Sedai by the Seanchan because when they arrived at the continent, they landed in a place rife with nations upon nations supported only by a ruler (the Aes Sedai) who would backstab and betray and kill as many opponents as they could in their life.

The a'dam stopped this with the conquest of the continent, and brought peace.

Oh yeah, and it was by no means a work of the Dark One -- all Seanchan there.

**an extreme upset in balance between the genders, and therefore in the general balance of duality (harmony);**

If you're going to say the Dark One was a mastermind and was planning this the moment he was being sealed and gave the counterstroke of the taint, you're far out there.

And again, the upset is caused by two things:

1. The taint of course.

2. Aes Sedai need to quell male channelers.

If you look now, the balance is hardly disproportional. Why? ~Most channelers are learners, not wilders.~

**the cultivation of the Black Ajah, along with a convenient disbelief in its existence;**

Woo, there are Darkfriend Aes Sedai. And, yet again (are you noticing a trend by now?) you attribute it to the wrong source. Ishamael created the Black Ajah in the Trolloc Wars.

The disbelief in them is natural -- what Aes Sedai wants to propergate the idea that they are evil, even in the smallest way?

**and countless other minor successes.**

Yeah, those minor successes appear to be the only ones they have, and most seem to be to Darkfriends, not the Dark One.

**I don't know what you call this, but I call it preparation.**

Yeah, preparation in ~THIS~ Age. And if you look, only the partial example that the Dark One created the taint is the only one that can be attributed to him. The rest are either given by the Light itself, or Ishamael created.

You haven't given one single solitary piece of AoL preparation. He had over 100 years! Yet he couldn't get free. And you propose he spent that 100 years, in preparation for ~THIS~ Age? Ludicrious.

Here's an example.

You're a football coach. On the other team you are set to play next week, they have all their main players get injured. What do you do for this game that's coming up?

You train, practice, coach and go in and beat the crap out of them.

If the Dark One was the coach, going by your idea, he did ~nothing~ at all for that game, and instead practiced on the game for next year!

What moron would do that?

**And yes, we all understand that the DO REALLY wants to be free. What I don't understand is why you supplied us with quotes to convince us.**

Because you're proposals (surprise surprise) ~MAKE NO SENSE THEN~.

You agree that the Dark One wants to be freed as soon as possible. Why isn't he free then, if he had 100+ years of total freedom compared to now?

**It takes time, and at the time of the sealing, he had not quite accomplished it, but was fervently working on it, and is still working on it.**

Ah! So that's it! He's a lazy worker? Oh, 100 years isn't enough time, but 2 years is? Excuse me for lack of believabilty.

**His agenda is to Break the Wheel, Kill the Great Serpent, and remake the world in his own image. To do that, it would help to turn the Dragon. If he can't turn him, he must kill him. Then he must overwhelm the forces against him. And then, to break the Wheel, he would have to sever the Power that turns it. But that is for another theory.**

Uh huh. So why is he so terrible at these objects?

He started out good; turning, turning, turning and while that was happening he could be killed. Then he apparently had a brilliant breakthrough! -- and canceled all killing.... And then brought it back later on.

His agenda is to break free of his prison and then remake reality for his own. In 100 years of unquestioned power -------------

HE COULD NOT DO THAT.

But, now he can, according to you.

**Finally, Shaidar Haran seems to serve him.**

The nature of the relationship has not been established. We have never seem them working together, which leads, which follows, or anything.

I believe Shaidar Haran does serve Moridin, but I won't state that as a fact for difference, because it has not been confirmed, and is speculation -- as you're dual purpose, non-confirming analyze of what information we have on it shows.

Callandor: 2005-01-26

Forgot to add a few things:

**1. He's younger.* That always helps. Ishamael was insubstantial as Ba'alzamon, only being able to appear in dreams and visions. He now has flesh.**

Uh, what? So the ~body~ the rotted away quite fast at the end of The Dragon Reborn, was not Ishamael? Or was that just a fluke?

Yes, Ishamael had a body.

**2. He doesn't have his glowing eyes.* Those glowing eyes, and mouth, and the darkness that followed him, were all signs of weakness that he no longer has.**

???

Signs of weakness? If anything, they were signs of his strength -- it showed he was completely unafraid to use the True Power so freely; that he ~knew~ he was so far in the Dark One's good graces and such a powerful figure that he was guranteed a body if he died.

Plus, those eyes scared the crap out of people, and shock value is always handy ;).

**3. He is the only one that can channel the TP* How is that not a big deal? He can do things not dreamed of before he was granted access to it. It may eventually cause his demise, but for now, he is a much more deadly weapon than before.**

If anything, it weakens the Dark. ~Only~ Moridin can channel the True Power now; all the other Forsake are denied it. Ishameal could channel the TP before of course. This hasn't changed him at all and is nothing but damaging to the Dark, since instead of 8 Forsaken with the ability, there is now only 1; and that 1 is someone who used it freely enough before anyway.

**4. He is Nae'blis* Again, how is that not a big deal? Lanfear used to mock him, now her soul is around his neck. He can force the Forsaken remaining to take chances that they previously would not have take.**

Yep, that's the only major change between Ishamael and Moridin -- Moridin is Nae'blis. I never said it wasn't a big deal or not. But that is the ~only~ change that is worth mentioning.

Great Lord of the Dark: 2005-01-26

I'm sorry Callandor, but if the Dark One had revealed himself the minute the Bore was drilled, they'd have had a seal up in five minutes. By waiting a hundred years, he turned a significant portion of the population to his side (secretly) and swiftly conquered enough of the rest to make the idea of fighting him directly by resealing him, secondary to the need to fight his armies. In the end, Lews Therin's plan was to ignore the armies and go for the General in charge of everything, the Dark One. That's when the Light 'won.' When they came to the realization that they needed to fight the Dark One, not his armies. Five minutes. That's what the AoLers would have needed to reseal him if he had announced himself right away. You seem to think he did nothing in those 100 years. He turned humanity against itself. He created strife and war where there was no cause for any to exist. And all with zero risk to himself.

Your arguments shout that you think WoT's plot is hole-ridden with respect to these 100 years, yet all references clearly indicate that these events happened, that the DO didn't overtly make a move for a century. I don't have to prove it happened this way, the books say it pretty clearly. What I am doing is giving a possible explanantion for how it was so. You can't tear down this idea by contradicting plain facts. But your assault on my choice of wording is dead on, I'll admit and concede that battle. I'll now say his powers go from 0 % influence on the real world to the ability to lay waste to it in instants. On a sliding scale. And that ability to lay waste to the world will come within four days of the seventh seal breaking (leaving room for Rand to be resurrected in three days).

If you'd like to expand on why the DO was an idiot for not showing himself the moment the Bore was drilled, I'll listen.

Oh, I can't believe I forgot that that at the height of his AoL powers, the Dark One was able to taint saidin, a not inconsiderable use of his powers. So it's not like he did absolutely nothing back then. In fact, the taint had to have been laid just as the last seal was made, or none of them would have been finished. So he did that with six and 3/4 seals laid on, so far as I can guess at this point.

ilgross: 2005-01-28

Actually the DO was only able to taint the seals BECAUSE of the hundred companions and it is for the reason that Saidin was tainted and not Saidar

Callandor: 2005-01-28

**I'm sorry Callandor, but if the Dark One had revealed himself the minute the Bore was drilled, they'd have had a seal up in five minutes.**

Ah, so when they did not know that they had even freed him, or that anything was wrong, if he tried to escape ~then~, they'd magically find out how to seal him away and then perform it before he could escape.

What the heck are you talking about?

**. That's what the AoLers would have needed to reseal him if he had announced himself right away. You seem to think he did nothing in those 100 years. He turned humanity against itself. He created strife and war where there was no cause for any to exist. And all with zero risk to himself.**

See, you actually think you're the Dark One do you?

I just love this assertion that the Dark One would be found out ~right~ away and then he would be swiftly dealt with if he tried all of his effort to escape.

The best part is that you believe it.

**I don't have to prove it happened this way, the books say it pretty clearly.**

Yeah, and when have I said otherwise? The point I'm trying to make is ~WHY~ he did nothing for those 100 years.

You're belief: he would be so soundly stopped (apparently in 5 minutes...) by the Light, and he knew this so he waited... when I have shown that he is ~impatient~ to be free of his prison.

**What I am doing is giving a possible explanantion for how it was so.**

Possible? More like utterly terrible.

**Oh, I can't believe I forgot that that at the height of his AoL powers, the Dark One was able to taint saidin, a not inconsiderable use of his powers.**

See, that's where you're wrong. You think he can just do this, whenever he wants. Wrong. It was a once and a lifetime chance event; RJ has said so.

**Question: Is there a reason the Dark One could not or would not re-taint saidin?

RJ: The conditions would have to be exactly right. Those conditions were set up while the seals were being placed on the Bore. The chances that exactly those conditions would occur again are fairly small. And that is saying that it was a volitional act rather than a side-effect of trying to stop the seals from being placed. After all, if the Dark One could taint saidin at will, why could he not taint saidar as well, and why would he not have done so?**

The only reason the Dark One could taint saidin, was ~because~ the Seals were being placed; they allowed it to happen (not there being only male channelers; that is what stopped it from being just saidin).

**So it's not like he did absolutely nothing back then.**

Yeah, it was the ~only~ thing he did; and surprisingly it was the best thing he did and the only thing he did himself.

terez: 2005-01-29

Callandor, you said the point you are trying to make is WHY the DO did "nothing" during the 100 years of the collapse. I suggested in my first post on this theory that perhaps the scope and potency of the DO's power in the world is dependent on his human followers. That is why I referred to the Collapse as a time of preperation on his part - not a preperation for the next Age, but a general preperation that was merely halted by the attack on the Bore. The more agents he managed to recruit, the more influence he was able to exert. I certainly can't think of any other reason why he would bother with the process. If his power was unlimited, obviously, he could have simply taken control of the world without any difficulty at the time of the Drilling. If you do not agree with this, I would be interested to know what your thoughts are on the subject. I understand not being willing to put forth any ideas on the subject because you do not think there is enough hard evidence in the books to really pin down the truth (I believe you mentioned some such reluctance earlier) but I believe that such is the purpose of this site, is it not? I would be interested to hear the ideas of such a talented quotemaster as yourself.

Also, you mentioned that you wonder why the mysterious Shaidar Haran was not present during the AoL. It seems to me that SH possesses certain qualities that used to belong to Ishamael, namely the "presence" of the spirit of Dark, if you will. Moridin does not have that dark presence following him around all the time that Ba'alzamon had. Perhaps the DO's power could not be contained within one agent any longer, and was dispersed between two individuals. Feel free to tear that one apart, as well, because I, like you, do not blindly believe ideas without hard core evidence to back them up. The only reason I even post here is because I like to watch the process of validation/debunking present here. In other words, it's really not necessary to adopt such an insulting tone when you put forth your evidence. We're all adults here. And please forgive me for responding with insult in kind earlier.

terez: 2005-01-29

I forgot a couple of things, Callandor. When I asked for a quote on the 120 years (meaning, I thought obviously, from the books), you provided me with an address rather than giving a quote, which led me to the FAQ, which I have read before, which did not mention anything about 120 years and in fact concluded with the possibilty that Ishamael was free during the entire age. If I missed something, would you please tell me? Also, you repudiated my assertions of the many successes of the DO during the previous Age saying basically that they were not caused by the DO. I feel that these events were direct results of the DO's actions (the taint, mostly) and I do not see any reason why the DO would not be aware of the possible effects of tainting saidin. It is very probable that he has done something similar in previous struggles against the world, and even if he has not, the possible results (the Breaking, the disruption of harmony between the powers) were fairly predictable. The main point is that without his influence, the world was relatively peaceful (no war and little crime), with all those working with the One Power using their talents for the good of humanity, and whenever possible, lending the Power to those who could not touch it (ter'angreal, and the "standing flows" that Alviarin mentioned). Therefore, it stands to reason that all of these major negative scenarios of the Age of Illusions are effects of the DO's efforts. And last, you referred to the actions of Darkfriends and Forsaken as though they were not to the purpose of the DO's plans; as if they were on a separate agenda, which I do not understand. Admittedly, they all have their own selfish agendas that are the inspiration for their oaths to the DO, but those selfish agendas are fueled by his influence, and none of them would dare not do their part to carry out his instructions. If you could clarify your assertions, I would be most grateful.

Callandor: 2005-01-30

**Callandor, you said the point you are trying to make is WHY the DO did "nothing" during the 100 years of the collapse.**

That's because I don't have a reason; that's the entire point of my responces -- looking ~for~ an even moderate reason. The one's that have been proposed, are simply terrible.

**I suggested in my first post on this theory that perhaps the scope and potency of the DO's power in the world is dependent on his human followers.**

Ah, so the Dark One has no power whatsoever; it's all his minions. Right.

**I certainly can't think of any other reason why he would bother with the process.**

Precisely the point! You're almost there! Just abandon the bad explanation and you got it.

1. I have shown that the Dark One is impatient, eggar, "dying" to break free of his prison. He obviously, since it's his entire goal that we know of, wants to be freed.

2. He had the perfect chance to break free right then and there at the moment the Bore was first drilled, when no one knew that he even existed, no one knew what they had done, and no one knew of anything to stop it.

Yet, he did ~nothing~!

**If you do not agree with this, I would be interested to know what your thoughts are on the subject.**

So, close, injecting sarcasm, and still missing the point.

**I understand not being willing to put forth any ideas on the subject because you do not think there is enough hard evidence in the books to really pin down the truth (I believe you mentioned some such reluctance earlier) but I believe that such is the purpose of this site, is it not? I would be interested to hear the ideas of such a talented quotemaster as yourself.**

Aw, are you growing weary of simple discussion?

Yes, the purpose of this site is ideasz; but these aren't mine being spread here. This theory, if you bothered to look at it, was submited by Great Lord of the Dark, and is his work, his ideas, and everyones addings or objections.

When I want to give my ideas on why I think things happened such and such way in formal discussion, I'll subimit a theory on the subject.

**Moridin does not have that dark presence following him around all the time that Ba'alzamon had.**

This was either an effect by Ishamael (created by him), or another side effect of the True Power, since it only really comes into play when he draws upon it.

**Perhaps the DO's power could not be contained within one agent any longer, and was dispersed between two individuals.**

The only thing different in Ishamael from all the other Forsaken -- he wasn't totally sealed in the Bore. Other then that, he had the exact same things happen to him.

He gave oaths to the Dark One, he served him, he could draw the True Power; all the Forsaken have these abilities and nothing seperates them at all, excepting Ishamael's amount of usage of the True Power, which was simply the most of any of them (most likely more then any combined).

**And please forgive me for responding with insult in kind earlier.**

And now it seems.

**In other words, it's really not necessary to adopt such an insulting tone when you put forth your evidence. We're all adults here.**

1. Insulting tone is for the blind assertions for all the things happening in the 3rd Age, being work of the Dark One directly -- clearly false, and delivered with explainations given in my usual bland style. Don't like it, read better or retain it more.

2. No, I'm not an adult yet (17 not 18 for a month left), but I do act like one here (better then most I know).

**When I asked for a quote on the 120 years (meaning, I thought obviously, from the books), you provided me with an address rather than giving a quote, which led me to the FAQ, which I have read before, which did not mention anything about 120 years and in fact concluded with the possibilty that Ishamael was free during the entire age. If I missed something, would you please tell me?**

Yes, you didn't read the evidence and draw the conclusion they are missing (and that way saving me all the work).

Ok, let's get that hard evidence you so dearly call for it seems:

1. Ishamael was obviously not sealed right away. If you read the Prologue of The Eye of the World, you know this, since Ishamael Heals Lews Therin of his madness (temporary or not; discuss that elsewhere), and from everything we know on Healing you have to be present at lesat to Heal someone -- Ishamael couldn't Heal Lews Therin, if Ishamael was a ghost or anything.

If I really need to quote that, give up on this right now.

2. Humanity always in relative chaos. There are three main time periods that the entire 3rd Age can be broken down into:

A. The Breaking to the Trolloc Wars

B. The Trolloc Wars to the Hundred Years War

C. The Hundred Years War to Present

If you didn't notice the big thing between a lot of the time periods, its chaos, war, and disarray.

As so beneficial this is for the Shadow, it seems beyond mere coincidence -- things work out too well for them that everytime humanity unties under common ground it is soon shattered worse off then it was before uniting.

Another big issue with those periods, is that they are all roughly 1000 years appart from each other (not exactly but just giving round numbers here).

3. Ishamael's influence.

Ishamael claims to have never been bound. Nice claim to make, but hard to back up since he was at the Sealing of the Bore, and even a high level channeler will die of simple old age after 3500+ years (no the Forsaken are not immortal; RJ (want the quote, ask for it)), since the oldest that we know of a channeler is 600 years and the oldest hinted at is around 700 max. Clearly there was some added means.

Ishamael was not transmigrated because:

1. He's described in the same body in the Prologue all the way until he dies in The Dragon Reborn (plus or minus a few "bumps").

2. As far as we know it was beyond the Dark One's power to do transmigrations throughout the Age.

So, let's look at his claims to Rand:

**TITLE: Eye of the World

CHAPTER: 14 - The Stag and Lion

"Fool, I have never been bound!" (False) The fires of his face roared so hot that Rand stepped back, sheltering behind his hands. The sweat on his palms dried from the heat. "I stood at Lews Therin Kinslayer's shoulder when he did the deed that named him. It was I who told him to kill his wife, and his children, and all his blood, and every living person who loved him or whom he loved. (False, he arrived after) It was I who gave him the moment of sanity to know what he had done. (True) Have you ever heard a man scream his soul away, worm? He could have struck at me, then. He could not have won, but he could have tried. Instead he called down his precious One Power upon himself, so much that the earth split open and reared up Dragonmount to mark his tomb.

"A thousand years later I sent the Trollocs ravening south, and for three centuries they savaged the world. (True) Those blind fools in Tar Valon said I was beaten in the end, but the Second Covenant, the Covenant of the Ten Nations, was shattered beyond remaking, and who was left to oppose me then? I whispered in Artur Hawkwing's ear, and the length and breadth of the land Aes Sedai died. (True) I whispered again, and the High King sent his armies across the Aryth Ocean, across the World Sea, and sealed two dooms. (True) The doom of his dream of one land and one people, and a doom yet to come. At his deathbed I was there when his councilors told him only Aes Sedai could save his life. I spoke, and he ordered his councilors to the stake. I spoke, and the High King's last words were to cry that Tar Valon must be destroyed. (could be true, not really important for here)**

Quite a lot (and some of them are lies). As already said, Ishamael could not have been totally free for the entirety of the Age (even from the Breaking to the Trolloc Wars) without some help. The main, and most obvious means of that, is by being sealed after a time.

As I pointed out above, not everything is true; but a lot is, and I have marked the ones that are true and false (clearly).

As for the true ones, one quote isn't enough, especially with lies contain in it. So, proving the truths.

1. Age -- been over it twice already, if you don't believe that one, you're ignoring facts.

2. Ishamael was present during the Trollocs Wars:

**TITLE: Eye of the World

CHAPTER: 9 - Tellings of the Wheel

Some villager raised a small cheer then, but Moiraine kept on as if she had not heard. "The host that faced the men of Manetheren was enough to daunt the bravest heart. Ravens blackened the sky; Trollocs blackened the land. Trollocs and their human allies. Trollocs and Darkfriends in tens of tens of thousands, and Dreadlords to command. *At night their cookfires outnumbered the stars, ~and dawn revealed the banner of Ba'alzamon at their head. Ba'alzamon, Heart of the Dark.~ An ancient name for the Father of Lies.* The Dark One could not have been free of his prison at Shayol Ghul, for if he had been, not all the forces of humankind together could have stood against him, but there was power there. Dreadlords, and some evil that made that light-destroying banner seem no more than right and sent a chill into the souls of the men who faced it.**

Here's a perfect example that shows me definition of a truth:

At the time of this quote given, Moiraine, as well as us the reader, did not know that Ba'alzamon really refered to Ishamael, not the Dark One; that truth is given later on. Until that ~contradiction~ it was true, and we had to believe it was true, because RJ had said it was.

We can all disbelieve Moiraine's entire story that the Battle of Manetheren never actually happened; however, this would be purely stupid, since RJ clearly wrote that incident in the novels, and it is ~uncontradicted~.

And nesseled in the quote, is the reference to Ba'alzamon's banner being present, which makes perfect sense being there if Ishamael's claim is truth that he ran the Trolloc Wars (at least for a bit).

So, here we turn to the BWB.

~Note~: Don't believe the BWB has any truth in it at all? You're quite full of it. Callandor's definition of truth in the Wheel of Time:

A statement given by a person through thought or voice which is uncontradicted anywhere in the series, including the BWB since it is of course dealing with the Wheel of Time.

3. Ishamael's presence in Artur Hawkwing's court:

There is a figure in the court, who screams Ishamael -- Jalwin Moerad.

**TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time

CHAPTER: The Reign of the High King

Very little is known of Moerad, though he appears in several sources, most notably in letters gathered in the Terhana Library in Bandar Eban. In Free Year 973 he appeared in Hawkwing's court, making his first entry into history. Many at the time wondered about his background, and some who inquired too closely into it may have suffered fatal accidents. It is noted that Tamika was icily cold toward Moerad, if always correct, yet although Hawkwing trusted her counsel, by the late summer of Free Year 974 Moerad was one of the High King's closest advisors. *He maintained this position until Hawkwing's death despite frequent long absences, a volatile temper, and a temperament that more than one observer recorded as ~“more than half insane.”~*

It is on that proximity of dates (late summer, Moerad because a counselor; early autumn, Hawkwing dismissed Aes Sedai from his service) and the startling fact that Moerad seemed openly contemptuous of Aes Sedai that all theories concerning him rest. Contempt is an odd stance toward Aes Sedai, and even those who hate Aes Sedai are wise enough to be discreet; yet such feelings are hardly enough to condemn him.

A partial manuscript (private collection in Andor), dated some twenty-three years after Hawkwing's death, builds on these shaky facts. According to the writer, within days of Hawkwing's demise Moerad was advising Marithelle Camaelaine. When she was assassinated, he supposedly began advising Norodim Nosokawa (again within days), and immediately after Nosokawa's death in battle, Moerad appeared at Elfraed Guitama's side. As these three came the closest to seizing the whole of Hawkwing's empire in the twenty years after his death, Moerad obviously either was an advisor of great skill or a man with a keen eye for a winner. How these things are supposed to tie into responsibility for Hawkwing turning against Aes Sedai is unfortunately among the missing portions of the manuscript. *An odd note: The writer claims that Moerad never aged from the day he first appeared ~to the day he vanished, abruptly, some forty years later.~* What that says of the source's veracity is left to the reader.**

If you don't read Ishamael's actions in that, once again, ignoring facts.

But a new piece of evidence has been added in -- a time limit. Why, if Ishamael had been do such a good job ruining the chances for a united humanity, would he suddenly disappear? Simple answer: he wouldn't, unless it was beyond his control. If Ishamael could have, he would've done everything to get the Dark One free before the rest of the Forsaken even knew what was going on.

But this is quite interesting with the 40 years, because it is mentioned again along with Ishamael in the BWB:

**TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time

CHAPTER: The Seven Seals

When the Dragon led the final strike against the Dark at Shayol Ghul, Ishamael may have been in some way only partially trapped by the seal on the Bore, leaving him aware and able to touch the world while the others slept in the seal – this according to a recently discovered tern manuscript attributed to Aran son of Malan son of Senar (born circa 50 AB). The manuscript, which was apparently incomplete at Aran's death, is based largely on letters and diaries which Aran attributed to Aes Sedai who had lived during the Breaking of the World itself. These writings (unfortunately represented today only by small quotations within the manuscript) *claim that there were sightings of, even encounters with, Ishamael after the bore was sealed, in fact perhaps as much as ~forty years after.~* In no case were the sightings by the women who wrote the diaries, but Aran apparently trusted them implicitly.

Such claims might be thought ridiculous except that Aran is known to have been a writer of strict honesty, one who never cited a source that he could not verify (though both his sources and the verification are long lost to us). *He speculated (citing other lost sources) that it may have taken some years for Ishamael to be drawn fully into the trap with the other Forsaken. If this was so, it seemed possible that Ishamael might well be thrown out of the prison holding the others and drawn back again on some regular cycle.* During his lifetime Aran made observations based on cycles of various multiples of forty years without discovering any indications that one of the Forsaken was loose in the world at those intervals.**

Look at that. The BWB even spells it out so nicely.

This solves the problem of Ishamael's aging, as well as allowing him to influence events in the 3rd Age, and proves all the statments.

Here's the timeline:

1. Sealing of the Bore -- Forsaken sealed, Ishamael only somewhat sealed. Dark One taints saidin, Ishamael goes and sees Lews Therin. Around 40 years later, he is fully drawn into the Bore.

2. The Breaking happens and then jump to slightly before the Trolloc Wars -- Ishamael brought out of the Bore into the world for 40 years. The Trolloc Wars start, Ishamael commands, Ishamael brought back into the Bore after 40 years, Second Covenent destroyed far beyond remaking.

3. Jump forward to after Artur Hawkwing's rise. Ishamael freed again for 40 years. He goes to Hawkwing's court as Jalwin Moerad, and soon after Hawkwing's death his empire is destroyed by the Hundred Years War. Ishamael goes from contestent to contestent and makes sure they do not unite the entire empire. After 40 years, he's brought back into the Bore.

4. Jump to 983 NE -- Ishamael freed again (as per the BWB's claim that some people were given orders from him this early, as well as information from Alviarin about Ishamael placing her in control of the Black Ajah). 998 NE -- The Eye of the World begins.

Count the cycles and the years. Not counting his present release, Ishamael had been free for a total of ~120 years;~ on a cycle of 40 years for roughly every 1000 or so.

Now, do you get it?

**I feel that these events were direct results of the DO's actions (the taint, mostly) and I do not see any reason why the DO would not be aware of the possible effects of tainting saidin.**

He knew what he was doing, but he didn't taint saidin so that in 3000 years, all Aes Sedai are female and hunt down male channelers to stop their madness -- the tainting was a last ditch effort (hence, counterstroke).

**It is very probable that he has done something similar in previous struggles against the world, and even if he has not, the possible results (the Breaking, the disruption of harmony between the powers) were fairly predictable.**

You are ~still~ attributing things to the Dark One which are no where near to his direct influence.

The only thing ~HE~ did: taint saidin. That's it. Big event, no doubt about it, but that's the only thing he did actively, and it was a last ditch effort before he was sealed, and only possible by the means of his sealing.

"Disharmony" between male channelers and female channelers?

1. Male wilders hunted down by female channelers -- proactive by Aes Sedai (IE: the Dark One plays no active role in this).

2. A vast majority of channelers are learners, not sparkers. No one until Lord of Chaos began to search for male learners, and Aes Sedai did not search for female learners until about the same time (they prefered they come to the Tower instead).

It's basically rules that Aes Sedai have placed on themselves that have lead to the present situation. As you can see by the Asha'man and Aes Sedai explosion in initiates, that the numbers of difference between male channelers and female channelers, is slim to none.

**Therefore, it stands to reason that all of these major negative scenarios of the Age of Illusions are effects of the DO's efforts.**

Wow, that is just a terrible logical leap. Shadar Logoth was in no way an effect of the Dark One, and I did not even mention it until now (go back to the others to see those). So, change your statements which are obviously false.

**And last, you referred to the actions of Darkfriends and Forsaken as though they were not to the purpose of the DO's plans; as if they were on a separate agenda, which I do not understand. Admittedly, they all have their own selfish agendas that are the inspiration for their oaths to the DO, but those selfish agendas are fueled by his influence, and none of them would dare not do their part to carry out his instructions. If you could clarify your assertions, I would be most grateful.**

Once again, please list any large accomplishments of the Forsaken or Darkfriends.

The biggest I can think of are all related to the Forsaken, and how they are power hungry enough to br in important locales. The great motions of chaos is their only moderate success and a general portion of it is in three books: The Shadow Rising, Lord of Chaos (surprise surprise), and A Crown of Swords. Those events are:

1. Splitting of the White Tower -- not even Forsaken planned. At most, it might have had a vague influence from Mesaana under Alviarin, but the majority of it was done by reasons of the Aes Sedai (root cause is actually Rand).

2. Formation of the Black Tower -- done completely by Rand al'Thor, slightly taken advantage of by the Shadow (since I believe Taim to be a Dreadlord).

3. The Spreading of the Shaido Aiel -- Sammael did something!

Aiel Finn: 2005-01-31

I don't quite remember where I read it, but I think that the DO has almost no memory of previous ages. He seems to lose his memories just like humanity does. This would explain why he had no clue about tainting the source.

Anubis: 2005-01-31

Two things Callandor, one is debatable, one is not.

1. Ishmael is the only forsaken who can draw upon the True Power since being named Nae Blis.

2. Ishmael is (or was) Immortal. Or at the very least super hard to kill. He was able to survive mortal wounds and only died after being cut off from the Dark One. This did not happen without a reason.

Callandor: 2005-01-31

**I don't quite remember where I read it, but I think that the DO has almost no memory of previous ages. He seems to lose his memories just like humanity does. This would explain why he had no clue about tainting the source.**

You're definately going to have to quote that, because I don't remember anything remotely similar to that.

Anubis: 2005-01-31

The Dark One exists outside of time. Therefore it would be incredibly hard for him to have "Memory" in the same sense that we do. And by incredibly hard I mean impossible.

The Dark One has been said to display both suprising knowledge and suprising ignorance of world events. This is because he knows just about everything. Its all just incredibly jumbled.

terez: 2005-01-31

Okay, I will clarify a few of my earlier points. I do not mean to suggest, by any means, that the DO has no power at all. But I do mean to suggest that his ability to affect events is nil without the conduit of human minds, and his vision of world events is limited to his followers, and his animal spies. At the Drilling, the presence of the True Power drew those with a lust for power. When the Drilling turned out to be disastrous, only those with a truly insatiable lust for power returned to seek it again, and those people relinquished their lives to the DO's service in return for power; either for the use of the TP or simply the promise of worldly power. Only through these people was the DO able to BEGIN his plan to take over, by increasingly subverting the population to the point that those who fought against him had no chance. It was getting pretty close to this point during the War of Power. The War was obviously not begun (with Ishmael's announcement, basically) until enough of his agents were in play to be able to bring this situation about. The only thing that stopped it was the Sealing, which merely removed all of the top players except for Ishmael. The remaining agents might still have been able to carry on that War, though not likely to succeed without their generals, if the Breaking did not begin so soon and disrupt everything. The DO's agents did, however, manage to sustain his influence in the world to a great degree WITHOUT the DO directly being involved. Certainly Ishmael led many Darkfriends to believe that he was the DO himself, partly for his own lust for power but certainly also so that he could retain their loyalty and service for the DO, so that he would be awarded when the seals gave out, or were destroyed, and the DO regained direct control of his followers. It has been mentioned many times on this topic that the ONLY thing the DO did directly was to taint saidin, and that he was ONLY able to do so because of the very special and unique circumstances. This suggests to me that the DO's power is bound by many rules, apparently set by the Creator, not that he has no power. It seems he was only able to do this because of the immense amount of saidin being channeled exclusively in the vicinity of the Bore. Also, Moridin reveals to us that he has the power to step outside of time into vacuoles, outside of the Pattern. He evidently has great knowledge of how to manipulate them, or he would not risk using them himself. Moghedien says that time flows differently in those places, sometimes faster, sometimes slower. This explanation for Ishamael's longevity makes a lot more sense to me than a "partial" trapping; the suggestion that he could have been irregularly "drawn back in" to the trap. It would also explain how he might have been able to avoid being trapped with the others. The DO could not avoid being trapped, and could only strike back in the way that he did. The other Forsaken did not have the knowledge to save themselves. Also, we do not know the extent of the Powers granted Ishamael by the DO - it is very possible that the DO really does have the power to grant him immortality.

Anyway, even with all of the evidence of Ishamael's influence during the Present Age and the timing of it, it is in no way conclusive that he was only free for 120 years, or that he was trapped at all.

Also, when I referred to a disharmony between the Powers, I merely meant the usage of the Powers in the world, not the traits of individual channelers. For 3500 years, only saidar has been safe to be used. The two powers are the One Power. One, not two. They are supposed to balance each other. The taint on saidin and its subsequent non-usage constitute the disharmony of which I spoke. The One Power is the force that turns the wheel. It is said many times in the series that the greatest wonders of the Age of Legends were done with saidar and saidin together, and the disharmony of which I spoke, and its import, should be fairly obvious, I think. Forgive me, however, for not being clear.

One last thing - I understand the difference between arguing the points of Great Lord of the Dark's original theory, way up there, and creating our own theories in the process. It seems to me, however, that many of these theories start out with a few valid points and very many "leaps of logic." If a theory draws enough response, though, by the time several people have verified, counterpointed, quoted, argued, suggested, counter-suggested, etc., a much better fleshed-out theory has been constructed. We all work together to figure out what's really going on. It helps to be able to read people's ideas while they are being formed, and not to have to argue the same point in several different places, with different participants, different modules of evidence, and less continuity. I don't see what is wrong with suggesting new ideas underneath someone elses, as long as it serves to shed light on the original topic. What do you think, GLotD?

Anubis: 2005-01-31

Callandor, you are ignoring something. I dont know how significant it is but its the only real difference between now and the AOL I can think of. In the AOL there were no Trollocs, there was, to my knowledge, no Blight, there was no well established system of Dark Friends. The Dark One had not been touching the world for 3500 years. This must be significant.

Look at it like this. The Dark One is trying to Taint and weaken the pattern. In the AOL he had to start from scratch. Therefore, even though he was MUCH stronger and MUCH more free, it didnt make him all powerfull. (note that he was still winning) There was not nearly as much Chaos, and Evil in the world as there is now. Flash forward 3500 years. There is 3500 years of filth on the pattern. There is chaos. The nations are all divided. There are few truly "Good" people. The Dark One will have a MUCH easier time.

Or look at it this way. If the Dark One at power level X can shatter the Age of Legends in 110 years, how long do you think it will take the Dark One at power level X+ to shatter modern Randland? I would give them 5 years at the very most.

Callandor: 2005-02-01

**1. Ishmael is the only forsaken who can draw upon the True Power since being named Nae Blis.**

Yes, and I mentioned this. I list it as a down side, since Ishamael could already channel the True Power before being made Nae'blis, and all the other Forsaken had the ability to. Now, ~only~ Ishamael can channel the True Power instead of at one time 13.

**2. Ishmael is (or was) Immortal. Or at the very least super hard to kill. He was able to survive mortal wounds and only died after being cut off from the Dark One. This did not happen without a reason.**

No Forsaken is or ever has been immortal -- Ishamael is not above this.

**RJ interview #9 from Budapest interview:

Q: Are the Forsaken already immortal?

RJ: No, they are not immortal.

Q: Do they know that?

RJ: Yes, they know that.

Q: Do they believe they are immortal?

RJ: No, they do not believe they are immortal, but they believe they will be; all they need to do is get the Dark One free. And they have been promised this; this is their reward for getting him free. If they manage to get him out of that prison, he will grant him immortality. And they believe this, because they have seen him in the past, as he has done now, bring the dead back to life, give the dead new bodies, transfer souls from a dying body to a young and healthy body. They've seen him do this, so they know, that can be done.**

However Ishamael survived, he did by some means unknown right now. But he was ~not~ Immortal.

He died the same way any person would: he had a sword shoved through his chest. And obviously he was not cut off from the Dark One, since he was transmigrated.

**But I do mean to suggest that his ability to affect events is nil without the conduit of human minds, and his vision of world events is limited to his followers, and his animal spies.**

Funny that controlling the weather doesn't involve humans at all -- purely the Dark One.

**At the Drilling, the presence of the True Power drew those with a lust for power.**

I wouldn't call it lust; curiousity. And not really power so much as understanding and what they believed would further the society. However, power, meh, I don't doubt there could've been a few that dreamed of it.

**Only through these people was the DO able to BEGIN his plan to take over, by increasingly subverting the population to the point that those who fought against him had no chance.**

And it's a heck of a plan, since the Dark One is just, you know, a very powerful being with a now present access to the world.

**It seems he was only able to do this because of the immense amount of saidin being channeled exclusively in the vicinity of the Bore.**

How many times do I have to keep telling people? IT WAS THE SEALS!

If saidar channelers were there, saidar would've been tainted to. It wasn't just the presence of saidin it was the way in which the Dark One was sealed up. Only male channelers being present ~stopped~ the taint at just tainting saidin.

**Also, Moridin reveals to us that he has the power to step outside of time into vacuoles, outside of the Pattern. He evidently has great knowledge of how to manipulate them, or he would not risk using them himself. Moghedien says that time flows differently in those places, sometimes faster, sometimes slower.**

Right.......

**This explanation for Ishamael's longevity makes a lot more sense to me than a "partial" trapping; the suggestion that he could have been irregularly "drawn back in" to the trap.**

Wow, what part about 3 cyclical times being draw in for 40 years every 1000 years or so did you miss? If ~anything~ that is quite regular.

**It would also explain how he might have been able to avoid being trapped with the others.**

Yes, if he was in one, which he wasn't. He was in attendence along with the other 13 Forsaken at the time of being sealed.

**Also, we do not know the extent of the Powers granted Ishamael by the DO - it is very possible that the DO really does have the power to grant him immortality.**

Christ, then why did he ~DIE~ in The Dragon Reborn??????

Why did the body he left behind, after being ~run through with Callandor~, disintagrate to nothing, if he was "immortal"?

Yes, the Dark One has the power to grant immortality to people. ~ONLY~ when he escapes. Read the dang RJ quote.

**Anyway, even with all of the evidence of Ishamael's influence during the Present Age and the timing of it, it is in no way conclusive that he was only free for 120 years, or that he was trapped at all.**

No, it's not conclusive at all when you simply ignore things.

**They are supposed to balance each other.**

Ah, so saidar being channeled over the years, has somehow mixed up the great cosmic scales that both halves of the One Power rest on to the side of saidar, and this was somehow the effect of the Dark One?

**It is said many times in the series that the greatest wonders of the Age of Legends were done with saidar and saidin together, and the disharmony of which I spoke, and its import, should be fairly obvious, I think.**

Yes, there were no male channelers that helped out with anything of any great importance for around 3000 years (not 3500 since they did help a bit with the Stone of Tear and the Eye of the World); but again, where is this a great success of the Dark One?

You act that by having a vast majority of saidar channelers for 3000 years or so was the greatest danger to humanity! All that the side effects are is that it took Rand al'Thor to found the Black Tower for there to be an army that can be made of both halves. There wasn't an inherant weakness to just saidar being used; there wasn't this great upheval over it either.

And, yet again, this continued ~only~ because of the policies of the White Tower. If ~they~ (not the Dark One) did not hunt down male channelers, you'd have wilders popping up and propigating, possibly even training others if they found them (look at the Land of Madmen). You're using generizations, incomplete information, and just plain gaps in logic to attribute victories to the Dark One that have nothing to do with him.

I'll state it again (since it apparently hasn't gotten through): the Dark One did one thing, and one thing only -- he tainted saidin.

**The Dark One had not been touching the world for 3500 years.**

And he hasn't been. The Dark One hasn't touched the world since the AoL when he was sealed. Since the seals have been breaking, his influence has started to rise, but he's no where near what he could do before being sealed and for the entire 3rd Age the Shadow has been pretty much running on auto-pilot (making Shadowspawn, Darkfriends, etc.), and sometimes guided by Ishamael.

**The Dark One is trying to Taint and weaken the pattern. In the AOL he had to start from scratch. Therefore, even though he was MUCH stronger and MUCH more free, it didnt make him all powerfull.**

Yes, and what taints more, faster? A slow drip, like what the Dark One did in the Collapse, or a huge pouring of taint (ink?) at one time (like if he tried an all out attack right away)?

Anubis: 2005-02-02

Callandor, if the Dark One has not been able to touch the world these past 3500 years, then how do you explain the Blight? Or even Herid Fel saying that man couldnt possibly match the Creators work? For the past 3500 years the DO has been straining to reach out of his prison and he has had SOME influence.

Callandor: 2005-02-02

**Callandor, if the Dark One has not been able to touch the world these past 3500 years, then how do you explain the Blight?**

The Blight is an artifact of the War of Power -- see RJ Budapest interview #10 if you don't believe me. However, it is an effect of the Dark One, that's true, but in the AoL.

**For the past 3500 years the DO has been straining to reach out of his prison and he has had SOME influence.**

Only recently has he had any effect. If he was straining to touch the world, it was minimal to notice earlier, but now he is gradually gaining ability to effect the world.

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he Dark One's powers

by Great Lord of the Dark: 2004-11-11 | 4.27 out of 10 (11 votes)

Previous Categories: Plans of the Dark One

Comments

Tamyrlin: 2005-01-14

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ImmDude123456: 2005-01-14

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