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ilviana... PAH! Mesaana is...

by Rhodric: 2003-10-14 | 8.12 out of 10 (25 votes)

Previous Categories: Who is Mesanna Masquerading As?

On the message boards I have been toying with the idea that Silviana, the Tower's Mistress of Novices, is who Mesaana has been masquerading as. While researching this idea I instead found much evidence which points to Shevan, a Sitter for the Brown Ajah, as Mesaana's alter ego. Unfortunately to explain this theory and leave no holes, I have to cover other matters; the young Sitter and the Ajah head conspiracy, as well as pointing out another Sitter as Black Ajah. Oh yeah, also

CROSSROADS OF TWILIGHT SPOILERS!

First, there is the infamous dress clue:

*** TPOD, Ch 25, An Unwelcome Return

"Alviarin flung herself from her knees onto her belly before the woman who seemed made of dark shadows and silvery light. Seizing the hem of Mesaana's dress, she rained kisses on it. The weave of Illusion – it must be that, thought she could not see a single thread of saidar any more than she could sense the ability to channel in the women who stood over her – did not hold completely, with her frantically shifting the skirt's edge. Flickers of bronze silk with a thin border of intricately embroidered black scrollwork showed through.

But she did file away a tidbit for herself. Trivial matter or not, Mesaana did not know everything that happened in the White Tower. And Alviarin would keep her eyes open for a sister in bronze skirts bordered on the hem in black scrollwork. Mesaana was hiding herself in the Tower, and knowledge was power."

What's interesting is Shevan appears a few pages earlier, at the start of the same chapter, in a *dark golden* dress:

*** TPOD, Ch 25, An Unwelcome Return

“I am very glad you don't deny Amador and Ebou Dar at least, Velina,” Shevan said drily. And she could be very dry indeed. As tall as most men, and bonily thin with it, the Brown Sitter had an angular face and a long chin, not improved by a cap of curls. With spidery fingers she rearranged her shawl and smoothed her skirts of dark golden silk and..."

I cut that quote off mid-sentence, since the next part of the paragraph illustrates a different point. The descriptions of these dresses are similar: bronze = dark golden, both silk. It is safe to assume that the meeting that Alviarin has with Mesaana is at a later time on the same day that the Sitters meet with Elaida in the same chapter. I won't explain why (for some reason trying to explain with quotes became extremely complicated very quickly) but if you read the chapter it seems quite clear. So we can assume that Mesaana, at the time of the Elaida /Sitters meeting, was wearing the same dress as she wears when commanding Alviarin, later that same day.

So first clue, Shevan is seen wearing a dress of the same colours and material as Mesaana's, and on the same day.

The rest of Shevan's physical description is fairly unimportant, since if she is Mesaana, then her appearance here is simply an Illusion weave. For instance her height – Mesaana is of average height (from the BWB), but we have Shevan described as “as tall as most men.” But if it's an illusion weave, that doesn't matter.

The second half of the paragraph I cut off has Shevan saying some interesting things to Elaida and the 5 other Sitters present:

"...her voice took on pointed amusement. “I'm uncomfortable saying what can and can't be. For example, not long gone, everyone ‘knew' that only a shield woven by a sister could stop women channeling. Then comes a simple herb, forkroot, and anyone at all can feed you a tea that leaves you unable as a stone to channel for hours. Useful with unruly wilders or the like, I suppose, but a nasty little surprise for those who think they knew everything, eh? Maybe next, someone will learn to make ter'angreal again.”

All right, I will write the rest of this post as though I've already proved Mesaana is Shevan (since in my mind it's already true, I just haven't explained it to all of you yet). By writing in this way it's easier to say why Mesaana (as Shevan) says what she says, and also it might be easier to convince people of the theory.

For mentioning forkroot, there are two possibilities. Either (a) forkroot was known about in the AOL and Mesaana is making a subtle stab at the ignorance of AS in this age. Or (b) forkroot is an all-new discovery, and Mesaana is truly ‘uncomfortable saying what can and can't be' since it's a new thing these young ‘girls' have found, like healing Severing. Either of these possibilities IMO strengthens the possibility of Shevan being Mesaana.

Now mentioning ter'angreal is very likely also a subtle stab at AS ignorance. Mesaana, being a forsaken and therefore knowing a lot of what is going on in the rebel AS camp, IMO already knows of Elayne's rediscovery of the art of making ter'angreal. Hence mentioning it to these Tower AS who haven't learnt that news yet, a sly joke only she understands, hence her voice taking on ‘pointed amusement'. Her amusement was pointed at these AS, like ‘I know something you don't know, nyah nyah!” well chosen wouldn't be that petty... yes they would... I digress.

There is one other quote in this chapter which adds weight but needs no extra theories (coming later). Andaya, one of the youngest sitters, tells off (in a roundabout way) Shevan and Velina (the white sitter present) for talking rubbish:

“I think we might concern ourselves with what we know to be true, yes?” Andaya asked firmly...(insert laborious dress and hair description here)... “Idle speculation, it wastes precious time. The world hangs by a thread, and myself, I do not wish to fritter away valuable hours prattling about supposed logic or chattering over what every fool or novice knows. Does anyone have anything useful to say?” For a sparrow, she could put acid on her words. Velina's face went red, and Shevan's darkened.

At face value, it seems that both Velina and Shevan are embarrassed by Andaya's retort. But if Shevan is Mesaana, then her face darkening is more likely in anger. Shevan, when mentioning the ter'angreal, was not ‘chattering over what every fool or novice knows' but mentioning something which is only known to a select few outside of the rebel Sisters. Hence her anger, she's probably thinking, “why you impudent upstart I know more than you've ever dreamed,” it makes so much sense if this is Mesaana.

More support comes in COT, when Alviarin returns after leaving for a month. As she enters Elaida's study...

COT, Ch 21, A Mark

“Alviarin,” Elaida said, sounding surprised, before she could get a word out. The hardness of Elaida's face softened in what almost seemed pleasure. Her mouth quirked close to a smile. Elaida had had no reasons to smile in some time. “Stand over there and be quiet until I have time to deal with you,” she said, waving an imperious hand toward a corner of the room. The Sitters shifted their feet and adjusted their shawls. Suana, a beefy woman, gave Alviarin a tight glance, and Shevan, tall as a man and angular, stared straight at her with no expression, but the others avoided meeting her eye."

Hmmm... Shevan (Mesaana) staring straight at Alviarin her errand-girl, who has maybe been away a bit too long (Alviarin took detours aside from Mesaana's orders before returning to the tower). It seems significant. As for Suana... maybe she's just an old-fashioned AS who think less of Alviarin since she skimped out on her duties as Keeper. But for Suana, meh...

Elaida soon afterwards asks if the Brown and Green Ajah's also support negotiations:

COT, Ch 21, A Mark

“The Brown,” Shevan began, then pursed her lips in thought and visibly changed what she had intended to say. Outwardly, she seemed utterly composed, yet she was rubbing her long thumbs against her long thumbs against her bony forefingers unconsciously. “The Brown is quite clear on the historical precedents. You have all read the secret histories, or should have. Whenever the Tower has been divided against itself, disaster has struck the world. With the Last Battle looming, in a world that contains the Black Tower, we can no longer afford to remain divided a day longer than need be.”

What was she going to say? It seems to me Mesaana thought about saying what she wanted rather than what the Brown Ajah wanted, but then decided against drawing attention to herself. By itself it seems irrelevant, but added with the other stuff, it sounds like a careful Forsaken to me. What annoys me about this chapter is that there is no description of Shevan's appearance, while in almost every chapter of the damn series there are long, long studies of the clothes of every character in each scene. The reason it annoys me is this:

Quote context: Alvy ran from Elaida and called Mesaana, SH has just walked in.

COT, Ch 21, A Mark

Abruptly, the shadows in the room lurched. Everything seemed to shift sideways as the darkness thickened in midnight lumps. And then the darkness was gone. Startled, Alviarin found herself with her begging hands stretched up toward a blue-eyed woman of flesh and blood, garbed in bronze-embroidered green. A tantalizingly familiar woman who looked just short of her middle years. She had known Mesaana walked the Tower disguised as one of the sisters, though no Chosen she had met showed any sign of agelessness, but she could not match that face to any name. And she realized something else, as well. That face was afraid. Hiding it, but afraid.

“She's been very useful,” Mesaana said, not sounding afraid at all, in a voice that tugged the edge of recognition, “and now I will have to kill her.”

GRRR! If there was a description of Shevan's dress, I might have been able to pin her down, but no. I believe that what Alviarin sees as Mesaana here is Mesaana's REAL face, with no tied-off illusion weaves or nuffin like that. This matches the description of Mesaana in the BWB and elsewhere – blue-eyes, just short of her middle years – so I think this is really her.

I think as Shevan, as I said before, Mesaana uses Illusion to look like her, modifying the image of her face somewhat. Since it's still the same face, just warped into a more angular one (Shevan's face), Alviarin almost recognizes her, but not quite. I'm not sure Mes also modifies her voice to be Shevan; it would seem a ‘tantalizingly familiar' face coupled with the same voice would allow Alvy to know her here. In fact, by her quote of having to Kill Alvy, maybe Mes already thinks she has been discovered. So maybe this suggests she don't mask her voice, but I don't want to get stuck in the semantics of this.

Right! So there's the stuff that is evidence on it's own. To give new evidence I have to explain a couple of side theories very quickly:

(1) The split in the WT is basically between the Reds and the Blues. So the other five Ajahs have been taking measures to assure that no matter which of the two Amyrlins win, the Tower will be truly united with a strong Hall of Sitters. To that end, the 5 Ajah heads have given 5 of the vacant Chairs in the Tower Hall (which became vacant due to 6 sisters aside from Blue leaving the Tower) to temporary Sitters; either to young Sisters who can be easily convinced/commanded to abdicate, or to the Ajah heads themselves (who will be willing to give up their Chair since they order their own Ajah's Sitters what to say anyway).

The Exception to this is Shevan – she is the 6th sitter who doesn't fit the pattern.

(2) Velina, a Sitter for the White Ajah (not one of the temporary Sitters), is Black Ajah.

For (1) I will give no proof – it would take too long. But it is plausible and makes intrinsic sense (makes sense as a guess without explicit proof). Now for (2), here is small bit of evidence from TPOD.

TPOD, Ch 25, An Unwelcome Return

"The six Sitters skidded to a halt uncertainly when Alviarin did not move out of their way. Even a Keeper with Alviarin's influence did not impede Sitters. Though Velina, normally the most self-possessed woman in the Tower, flinched for some reason. Alviarin glanced once at Elaida, coolly, studied the Sitters for a moment, and understood everything."

Well I know using just one quote is paper-thin evidence, but...

Velina flinched for some reason? I propose that this reason is because Velina is a BA AS who unexpectedly came into contact with the leader of the BA. She would know Alviarin as the BA leader only if she was in the same “heart” or on the supreme council. I propose the latter. Also consider the following quote, from the Elaida/Sitters meeting I keep using. The Sitters (one from each Ajah) are arguing, and Rubinde (Green Sitter) just said something mean.

TPOD, Ch 25, An Unwelcome Return

"Andaya drew herself up, her feathers well and truly ruffled. For that matter, Duhara's eyes narrowed; mention of men who could channel always lit fires in her head. Shevan clicked her tongue as if at children squabbling – though she looked pleased to see it – and Velina frowned, for some reason sure that Shevan had aimed at her. This was amusing, but getting out of hand."

I should have said this before – the first part of the sentence I've highlighted is just like a forsaken amused at the ‘foolish girls' of this age arguing, again implying that Shevan is Mesaana. The second part is the weird bit – it could be interpreted as Velina being indignant about being a source of amusement for a fellow BA agent. I think that Mesaana as Shevan has met with Velina, claiming to be a BA agent higher than Velina, and given her orders or similar.

Well aside from that, here's stuff to do with the young Sitter's conspiracy.

In COT two the Tower hunters of BA met in hallway and are discussing the young Sitter's:

COT prologue, Glimmers of the Pattern

"Seaine's face took on a muley expression. Yukiri almost expected her ears to lie back. Then she exhaled. “Did the head of you Ajah have a hand in choosing Andaya for the Hall? More than usual I mean?”

“She did,” Yukiri replied carefully. Everyone had been sure Andaya would go into the Hall one day, perhaps in another forty or fifty years, yet Serancha had all but anointed her, when the customary method was discussion until a consensus could be reached on two or three candidates, then a secret ballot. That was Ajah business, though, as secret as Serancha's name and title.

“I knew it.” Seaine nodded excitedly, not at all her normal manner. “Saerin says that Juilaine was handpicked for the Brown, too, apparently not their usual way, and Doesine says the same about Suana, though she was hesitant about saying anything. I think Suana may be head of the Yellow herself. In any case, she was a Sitter for forty years the first time, and you know it isn't common to take a chair after you were a Sitter that long. And Ferane stepped down for the White less than ten years ago; no one has ever entered the Hall again so soon. To cap it off, Talene says the Greens nominate choices and their Captain-General choose one, but Adelorna chose Rina without any nominations.”

We know from the COT glossary that Suana (yellow); Ferane (white), Serancha (Gray) and Adelorna (green) are heads of their respective Ajah's. Suana and Ferane have taken seats as their choice, while Adelorna, Serancha, and the Brown head each chose a young sitter (Rina, Andaya and Juilaine respectively) to babysit Chairs in the Hall. But there is also the matter of Shevan...

COT prologue, Glimmers of the Pattern

"Yukiri raised one finger. “Five Ajahs had to choose new Sitters after women they had in the Hall joined the rebels.” Seaine nodded, and Yukiri raised a second finger. “Each of those Ajahs chose a woman as Sitter who wasn't the... logical... choice.” Seaine nodded again. A third finger joined the first two. “The Brown had to choose two new Sitters, but you didn't mention Shevan. Is there anything...” Yukiri smiled wryly, “odd... about her?”

“No; according to Saerin, Shevan would likely have been her replacement when she decided to step down, but –“

“Seaine, if you're actually implying the Ajah heads conspired over who would go into the Hall – and I never heard a more crackbrained notion! – if that's what you're suggesting, why would they choose five odd women and one who isn't?”

“Yes I am suggesting it. With the rest of you keeping me practically under lock and key, I've had more time for thinking than I know what to do with. Juilaine and Rina and Andaya gave me a hint, and Ferane made me decide to check.”

What did Seaine mean about Andaya and the other two giving a hint? Oh. Of course. Rina and Andaya were not really old enough to be in the Hall yet, either. The custom of not talking about age soon enough became the habit of not thinking about it, either.

“Two might have been a coincidence,” Seaine went on, “even three, though that stains credulity, but five makes a pattern. Except for the Blue, the Brown was the only Ajah to have two Sitters join the rebels. Maybe there's a reason in that why they chose one odd sister and one not, if I can figure it out. But there is a pattern, Yukiri – a puzzle – and whether it's rational or not, something tells me we had better solve it before the rebels get here. It makes me feel as though somebody's hand is on my shoulder, but when I look, there isn't anyone there.”

They ask is there anything odd about Shevan – well I believe there is, she's a Forsaken in disguise. I think Mesaana either Compelled the right people to get in, or just deliberately chose to disguise herself as a prospective Sitter – say she killed Shevan and took her place when it became clear that the Brown's would choose Shevan as Sitter.

I think that there is MUCH evidence to suggest that Shevan is really Mesaana in disguise. The evidence for Danelle (the most respected Mesaana candidate) is just physical – she's ‘dreamy', has blue eyes, and taps her finger on her lips thoughtfully. Whereas this evidence I have put forward for Shevan has less to do with physicalities and more to do with the psychology of an AOL channeler in the new age. I don't propose this is a new idea – the dress similarities have been mentioned on the message board – but hopefully in compiling the evidence this way it is something new.

Anyone agree?
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Comments

1

Tamyrlin: 2003-10-16

I wish more people would follow your example when they create their theories. Concerning your idea, I think you have made some excellent points. Shevan is certainly mysterious and Jordan has made a point of using her, but not giving her a point of view, preventing us from knowing her thoughts, which is possibly because of her true identity, but maybe not. Quickly, I think you will need to study out the conspiracy and find additional information to convince me of the black ajah status of most of those women, your quotes were good but not definitive. Back to your theory, I have a problem with the moment Alviarin sees Mesanna. If here mask of mirrors or the illusion has dropped from her face, then you may have a point to why she might not recognize her, but Mesanna can't make her self taller can she? If you saw somebody the same day, somebody you knew, with a certain dress on, then later that day you saw another person, with the same dress on, same shoes, same everything, except a different face...wouldn't you say, "holy crap, she has the same dress on as Shevan..." instead of thinking, "she looks and sounds familiar" which is something I would wonder if I saw someone that I barely recognize because I don't associate with him/her on a constant basis, someone I might see "walking around the tower" in my free time? And I found this reference which may undo your argument, "Shevan and Sedore certainly wore tight mouths as they remembered all too well scrubbing floors and working in the laundries—but none had been sent to Silviana for Mortification of the Flesh." This appears to be a point of view spot, where the narrator tells us what Shevan is thinking...sorry. But of course she could be Black Ajah.

2

Dragon: 2003-10-16

Mesaana being Shevan has the same problems as any other Aes Sedai disguise.

If Mesaana wants to play an Aes Sedai her disguise, her MoM must be perfect.

In CoT we see Mesaana's real face (which she wants to hide before Alviarin). She hasn't the ageless look of course.

We know that even the same person with or without the agelessness looks very different (e.g. Siuan).

You say that Mesaana's face is tantalising familiar with Shevan's face though Mesaana hasn't the ageless look AND had to change her face to fit Shevan's face.

Can't really be.

Besides, this we have also the problem with her body.

Alviarin doesn't think that Mesaana's dress doesn't fit her.

But Shevan's is described as being tall while Mesaana has an average height.

All in all, after CoT it seems that Mesaana is most likely a servant (or maybe a guest in the WT).

And this makes sense since the other Forsaken also created new identities and never played existing people over a long time period because it's just too difficult and dangerous.

3

Great Lord of the Dark: 2003-10-16

All I really needed was for you to point out that Shevan doesn't fit the pattern of odd Sitters. That in itself is odd since I believe the Ajahs are trying to put trustworthy Sitters in place. Callandor proposed that Mesaana must be Brown, which I agree with. And I have been looking for a reason why the Brown lost two Sitters. Mesaana would want to be where the Power is, in the Hall, not just some random Sitter. If you faction Mesaana is Shevan, I will join.

4

Mairashda: 2003-10-16

the size discrepancy is about the only thing that doesn't fit here... a disguise that is used constantly over a longer period would be closer to ones real appearance: making yourself a few inches taller does severely increase the chances of somebody noticing a difference between things they see and things that are there.

the only sources containing a physical description of mesaana are from the age of legends, a highly civilized age. everybody who has seen old knights' suits of armour knows that people were a lot smaller back in the middle ages which is mostly due to their diet back in those times.

as the third age, especially in those years is not nearly as civilized as the world during the age of legends one may safely assume that people are not as well fed and that their diet is not as balanced which in turn may very well keep them from reaching their full size. so mesaana being of average height for a woman back in the age of legends could easily be considered a tall-ish person now.

5

Korell: 2003-10-17

Rhodric you said:

"The evidence for Danelle (the most respected Mesaana candidate) is just physical – she's ‘dreamy', has blue eyes, and taps her finger on her lips thoughtfully. "

Just! Physical evidence? that is the most important part in any case is physical evidence manerisims of people are usually very unique sure you might find somone who has the same tic as somone else but how often do they show similar manerisms consistantly and more then just 1 maybe 2 besides wich Messana would have to watch Shevan for months to get down the way she acts and no one has mentioned anything about her acting odd and this ties into why people suspect Danelle so much because if i remember right she had previously been gone from the tower for quite some time so i her manerisms changed it would not be a noticable however i am sure there is a strong case to be stated for Messana being a servant of some kind because she does not have the ageless look and it would require less alteration with the MoM

Physical evidence is usually the most damning part of any investigation therfore you cannot discount it off handedly some of the comments about Danelle being Messana have to do with guestures and manerisms which are as much psychological tells as is the evidence you stated above however it is all merely circumstantial because we will not know until it is revealed we will simply have to RAFO then we will know what theory is correct if she even turns out to be a serving maid in closing even though i do not agree with the theory i think Tam is right you did great research to support your point

6

Dragon: 2003-10-17

Korell:

"however i am sure there is a strong case to be stated for Messana being a servant of some kind because she does not have the ageless look and it would require less alteration with the MoM"

That's right.

But if Mesaana is indeed a servant she most likely doesn't use a MoM at all.

This is the reason why Mesaana disguises her face when she visits Alviarin and wants to kill her when Alviarin sees her true face.

If she could assume that Alviarin wouldn't recognize her because of a MoM she wouldn't kill her useful pet.

In the scene in CoT it's clear that Mesaana thinks that Alviarin knows her identity now (while in truth Alviarin can't remember it yet).

This indicates that Alviarin has met Mesaana in her secret identity before that but not really noticed her.

For this reasons Mesaana is rather a secretary of an Aes Sedai (like Halima) than a serving maid.

Plus, Mesaana has just more freedom with such a position.

7

Rhodric: 2003-10-17

Tamyrlin:

***Quickly, I think you will need to study out the conspiracy and find additional information to convince me of the black ajah status of most of those women, your quotes were good but not definitive.***

i think you've misunderstood me. i don't believe that the Young Sitters in the tower are BA (although some of the may be). i was meaning to say that the 5 young Sitters (one from each ajah except blue or red) are temporary sitters, chairminders in the Hall, who have been picked so that when the tower recombines (under whatever amyrlin) these chairminders can be removed and the old sitters put back in their place. the reason for this is simple - between the two factions, there are 36 Sitters, who will be trying to fill 21 seats in the Hall (assuming no Ajah is disbanded). so some Sitters are gonna be shoved aside, and so the Ajah Heads have picked sitters for just that. (i will write a whole theory on this, but there is a discrepancy with numbers of young Sitters in Egwene's camp - RJ can't count or something).

the black Sister thing was meant to be separate - i only meant that Velina is BA. and perhaps i should not have included it; it is not important to proving Shevan is Mesaana as i thought. Velina may be Black, she may not, but Mes is still Shevan.

also from Tam (on the message board)

***I had to discredit it, found a quote, gives pov of Shevan remembering her days as a novice or accepted...in other words, she is probably a black ajah, but not mesaana***

if the quote you are talking about is this one... (thanks to Callandor, QuoteMaster, ;D)

TITLE: Path of Daggers, CHAPTER: 25 - An Unwelcome Return

"As you command, Mother," murmured six voices not so steady as their owners might have wished. Even Duhara's face was pasty pale as they made their curtsies. Two Sitters had been stripped of their chairs, and half a dozen had served days of Labor for penance—which was humiliating enough in their position to be Mortification of the Spirit besides; Shevan and Sedore certainly wore tight mouths as they remembered all too well scrubbing floors and working in the laundries—but none had been sent to Silviana for Mortification of the Flesh. No one wanted to be.***

This chapter is in Elaida's POV. the reference to Shevan and Sedore working in the laundries etc is IMO obviously referring top a recent punishment dolled out by Elaida. it is NOT a reference to the two Sister's days as novices.

additionally, i wish to use this quote as further proof. in what is commonly reffered to as the "Forsaken coffee hour" in WH, (i think the chapter is "Wonderful News") Demandred wonders why Mesaana isn't present (chapter in his POV) and Moridin also comments on her absence. quoting myself from the message boards:

***I don't think this punishment discredits Shevan as Mes, and i thought it could be a reason for why Mes was not at the Forsaken coffee hour in WH - she was too busy scrubbing floors, and not happy about it.***

***I don't think it's too much of a stretch of the imagination to believe that Mesaana would take a little punishment. It's not as if she had any choice in the matter. Since she is disguised as a Sitter, Mesaana has to BE that Sitter, not just when it suits her. (same goes for whoever you believe her to be). She has not done anything out of character by doing this, since it was out of her hands.***

the other problem people are having is with the Illusion weaves. i think that illusion weaves can cover it all, Mes being one of the few surviving AOL channellers, i think that she would have no problems overcoming the problems that you all have pointed out. myself i think that people put too much store in the science of channeling and so your arguments against the Illusion are lost on me. sorry.

to Korell, who said about me disregarding Danelle's 'evidence':

***Just! Physical evidence? that is the most important part in any case is physical evidence manerisims of people are usually very unique***

i disagree, only because of something (i think) i've noticed about RJ's writing. the physical evidence of Danelle is IMO a red herring. when we have other Forsaken disguised as characters that Rand etc (the main characters) interact with, rather than obvious damning physical evidence to hint at being forsaken, RJ just gives subtle clues in the speech of who the Forsaken are hiding as. we get characters who seem forsaken-ish in their behaviour. I think that Osan'gar (aginor reborn) hiding as Corlan Dashiva is the best example. if you go back and read the passages in ACOS and TPOD when Rand is interacting with Dashiva (and i read most of the TPOD stuff today) you realize how many subtle hints are there. Dashiva's speech and reactions to situations (eg. Rand mentioning Forsaken around Dashiva, Dashiva flinches) seem strange at first glance, but when you know he is Osan'gar, the strangeness seems as not-so-subtle hints.

I think that with Shevan i have successfully found such hints that she is in fact Mesaana in disguise. the psychology of it makes too much sense. read these passages with the POV that Shevan is really Mesaana and just see if it fits. These are the only passages where Shevan is mentioned (i think):

TPOD ch25, An Unwelcome Return

COT prologue, the bit with Seaine and Yukiri meeting in the tower.

COT ch21, A Mark

and thanks tGLotD, it's encouraging when someone agrees with my loony ideas. I can't faction it until i'm an elder though.

8

Elder Haman: 2003-10-17

Maybe you should read my theory under "The Pattern of Sitters That Are Too Young" Which gives a much simpler solution to the problem of the two brown Sitters- 5 sitters, one from each Ajah other than blue and red joined the rebels to act as spies/provactors for the Tower Ajah heads. Only the 3 blues and one Brown actually rebeled- we can tell from the fact that the only Tower sitter in the rebel camp to vote for war was one of the brown- see my theory for more details.

So you developed a great complex and convulted explination for Shevan- but it's much easier to believe otherwise. That said Shevan does have a lot of qualities that arouse suspicion- it's good to finally have a new idea. The one thing that makes me reject Shevan as Messana's alterego is that Shevan has a long history in the tower- people know her. Nobody seems to really know Danelle- no friends- so I still thunk she is the best canadite.

9

Tamyrlin: 2003-10-17

Rhodric, good point on that quote. I read it out of context. Okay, so maybe it could be Shevan, especially if you can match up those timelines on the punishment and the coffee hour...hmm.

10

Deadsy: 2003-10-18

I like this. I thought it was odd that the Brown was the only ajah other than blue that had 2 Tower Sitters who fled and joined the rebels. I was also already suspicious that one of them (Janya) is black. It's just a guess though, with no real proof. There are just a couple oddities about her. Maybe she was sent there by Alviarin to open up 2 spots and make it easier for Mesaana to get selected.

11

Dragon: 2003-10-18

Rhodric said:

"the other problem people are having is with the Illusion weaves. i think that illusion weaves can cover it all, Mes being one of the few surviving AOL channellers, i think that she would have no problems overcoming the problems that you all have pointed out. myself i think that people put too much store in the science of channeling and so your arguments against the Illusion are lost on me. sorry."

The problem is not that Mesaana wouldn't be able to disguise as Shevan.

The problem is that it's hard to believe that there is an Aes Sedai in the WT (e.g. Shevan) who looks tantalising familiar to Mesaana.

And only because of that reason Mesaana disguised as this Aes Sedai.

A bit too much coincidence for me.

It's easier and more secure to create a completely new identity (like all other Forsaken do) e.g. as some kind of a servant, than to play an Aes Sedai among many other Aes Sedai for a long time.

12

Korell: 2003-10-18

the proof you show about Dashiva and Danelle is not very good because their actions have nothing to do with each other Danelle is described in a similar way as Mesanna but was Osengar ever descibed as flinching whenever the forsaken were mentioned? these 2 points have nothing to do with each other to prove this particular point this evidence is thin at best because flinching at the mention of forsaken is not a manerism that relates from osangar to Dashivas actions unlike Mesanna and Danelle where their manerisms are described in a similar manner

you still did not address the key evidence that Shevan is not mesaana and that is Shevan has been in the tower and no one has mentioned that she is acting strangly when you have explained this and the explanation points the direction you are trying to prove it to then i will be much more open to the idea

as for who Mesaana "IS" dont know i think the best way to determin who she is is to figure out who she is not personally i hope we find out in the next book but of course that lease another year and a half to debate the situation LMAO

one more thing Did you ever notice the name patterning of Mesanna and Danelle its kinda amusing and quite pointless to point it out but they have the same number of letters and the double letter is in the same place lol i thought i was amusing anyway if pointless

13

Rhodric: 2003-10-19

Deadsy:

***I was also already suspicious that one of them (Janya) is black. It's just a guess though, with no real proof.***

yeah i couldn't find any conclusive proof for Janya to be BA, but that would help this theory in a BIG way. the main suspicioun arose when in COT Egwene thinks something like

"Janya was the only AS who had been a Sitter in the Tower who supported Egwene in every decision."

and we know from elsewhere that the only other Sitter to stand for every one of Egwene's proposals is Delana, who we KNOW is black. but it aint PROOF. oh, darn my socks!

it doesn't matter that Shevan seems to have friends. to quote me again from the message boards:

***Mes could have set that trap [EDIT: the trap using Eg, El and Nyn to trap Rand in tear] from the shadows, ie. as one of the Chosen, she could have just told the BA to set it. She wouldn't necessarily have to been hidden as a Sister yet. I think early on she WAS hidden as a servant, and eavesdropped (inverted weaves) on AS to find out how best to hold power in the WT. (during this period she helped set Be'lal's trap in the Stone). then the Tower split, the Brown were going to raise Shevan to Sitter, BOOM, Mes kills Shevan, assumes her identity, is raised to Sitter, and there you have it.***

so i think that Mesaana had time to observe the Sitter Shevan and mimic her habits.

14

Murrin: 2003-10-26

When we look at the descriptions, I think it bette to look for clues not only in physical similarities, but in how RJ choses to describe the person - For example, one of the reasons I tend to lean toward Danelle is that with Mesaana RJ chose only to mention her eye colour in CoT and no other physical feature, and he has done the same thing with Danelle since we first saw her - we have never had a more accurate physical description than 'dreamy blue eyes'.

15

Jes: 2003-11-01

Rhodic, I think you should give the same good intensive study to your first theory -- that Silviana, Mistress of Novices, is Mesaana. That's what I've thought for a while now, based more on "intuition" than facts. I get the feeling that she enjoys dishing out humiliation of the body, and I think it would be a perfect position to evaluate potential allies or threats to the Dark side. I don't think Jordan has given us a lot of clues on Silviana, but has given us red herrings on other Mesaana candidates instead.

16

Rhodric: 2003-11-04

Jes, i thought Mesaana was Silviana for a while, hence the name of this thread. but i had to discard the idea after the very little evidence for her. while trying to find Silviana quotes, i instead found all of this stuff that IMO points to Shevan as Mes. here is a rant from the message board i wrote which killed my 'intuition' feeling that Silviana is Mesaana.

"Silviana: Okay, one HUGE point I was going to use in her favour as Mes is that in the later books (ie since Elaida became Amyrlin) there is relatively no "on-screen" stuff of novices and accepted in the WT. I was going to say that this is because the new Mistress of Novices (Silviana as Mes) had corrupted them all, and RJ was keeping that a secret.

INSTEAD i now think that the reason the novices/accepted haven't been seen so much is more simple. In the early books the focal characters in the Tower (Eg, El, Nyn) were novices/accepted, and their conversations were often held with other novices/accepted. Now the focal characters in the Tower are the Tower Amyrlin, her Keeper, and the Sitters(eg. hunters of BA), so it's natural that the dialogue will involve mostly characters of this type rather than with novices/accepted."

see i thought Mes had started her infamous "schools" in the classrooms of the WT. but after thinking about RJ's writing, i discarded the idea.

hey, if it's Silviana (i assume Mesaana's identity will be revealed in the next book) then i'll be cheering. i'm not a fan of Danelle as Mesaana, or Serafelle, but either Silvy or Shevan makes more sense to me.

17

Jes: 2003-11-06

Rhodric,

Here's a thought sparked by a different thread I was just reading ... if Nicola went to the WT as many believe, wouldn't the logical person for her to be turned over to be Silviana? All sorts of possibilities there.

18

Rhodric: 2003-11-16

I see what you mean Jes:

Nicola goes to the Tower, sent to Silviana, Nic says i can take Egwene down, Silvy goes 'hmmm' and is really Mesaana then Compells Nic to tell her everything, Mes as Silvy sets up the BA thing.

its a good idea except that we don't KNOW that Nic is in the tower, so it all falls to dust. besides, IMO if Nic is a darkfriend she would know 'signals' and would be able to communicate messages to the BA anyways, and hence Mes could find out about Eg from that.

also IMO there is not enough evidence to determine much about Eg's kidnapping until the next book, including Mesaana's potential involvement.

19

Sidhe: 2003-11-25

Going back to the original theory, there is one thing i think is not correct regarding Mesaana being Shevan: there's quite a big difference between "dark golden skirts" (Shevan) and "a green dress with bronze scrollwork" (Mesaana). Unless she changed dresses really quickly these two can't be the same person. Since AS tend to dress in Ajah-colours, especially now in the WT coz of the splits between Ajah's, wouldnt it be more logical to look for a Green with a taste for embroidery? (No suggestions here, sorry)

Another thing i'd like to point out is the colour of the eyes. It seems to me that changing eye-colour is the easiest way to change you're appearance. For example, nowadays you can buy lenses in all colours: if you have blue eyes naturally and you use brown lenses, it really changes your looks (i've tried :P). So blue eyes don't say much...

20

Zaela Sedai: 2003-11-25

Sidhe-

"there is one thing i think is not correct regarding Mesaana being Shevan: there's quite a big difference between "dark golden skirts" (Shevan) and "a green dress with bronze scrollwork" (Mesaana). Unless she changed dresses really quickly these two can't be the same person. Since AS tend to dress in Ajah-colours, especially now

"there is one thing i think is not correct regarding Mesaana being Shevan: there's quite a big difference between "dark golden skirts" (Shevan) and "a green dress with bronze scrollwork" (Mesaana). Unless she changed dresses really quickly these two can't be the same person. Since AS tend to dress in Ajah-colours, especially now "

TITLE: Path of Daggers, CHAPTER: 25 - An Unwelcome Return

"Alviarin flung herself from her knees onto her belly before the woman who seemed made of dark shadows and silvery light. Seizing the hem of Mesaana's dress, she rained kisses on it. The weave of Illusion—it must be that, though she could not see a single thread of saidar any more than she could sense the ability to channel in the woman who stood over her—did not hold completely, with her frantically shifting the skirt's edge. Flickers of bronze silk with a thin border of intricately embroidered black scrollwork showed through."

TITLE: Path of Daggers, CHAPTER: 25 - An Unwelcome Return

"But she did file away a tidbit for herself. Trivial matter or not, Mesaana did not know everything that happened in the White Tower. And Alviarin would keep her eyes open for a sister in bronze skirts bordered on the hem in black scrollwork. Mesaana was hiding herself in the Tower, and knowledge was power."

Messana is wearing Bronze skirts, just as a member of the Brown ajah would. This is one reason Danelle and Shevan are suspects. Messana was wearing the green dress right before SH marked Alviarin, that was after we saw Shevan in the hall, I think it was a while afterwards.

21

Deadsy: 2003-11-25

The part you're talking about is later on. She was wearing bronze embroidered green in COT.

The part where Shevan wore dark gold was in POD. Then a few pages later in POD Mesaana was wearing "Flickers of bronze silk with a thin border of intricately embroidered black scrollwork..."

22

Sidhe: 2003-11-26

Zaela Sedai and Deadsy,

Ok, i'm sorry, i read the quotes wrongly, so that takes out the "changing really quickly".

But still, (yes, i know i'm splitting hairs now, sorry) bronze and gold look different: bronze is yellowish-brown (and not as shiny as gold, but this counts only in metals) which means light-brown/beige... gold is yellow, so even dark golden would be dark-yellow, no brown to be seen.

Besides, there have been mentions of other sisters wearing bronze or golden and not belonging to the Brown Ajah; the Yellow Ajah for example. (I know i read that somewhere, but i don't have all the books here at the moment, so i can't look it up... if someone could provide any quotes, i'd be most grateful). For as far as i can remember, bronze and golden seem to be fairly neutral colours, which can be worn by anyone.

I tried looking up the dress Shevan was wearing in CoT, but unfortunately, i couldn't find it. One question tho: would a sister other than a Green wear a "bronze-embroidered green" dress? So with green being the main colour?

23

Zaela Sedai: 2003-11-27

There are sisters such as Nynaeve, who will wear other colors other than their own ajah. Generally when they do their ajah's color is in the embroidery or slahed in the skirts.

24

Dorindha: 2003-11-28

There is no rule about dress colours - I'm sure we've seen Moiraine wear other colours than blue. It is noted in the books that White sisters seem to have a prediliction for wearing white, but no other Ajah seems to have occasioned comment in the same way - Brown sisters are noted for wearing wool (not exclusively though), but it could be any colour.

I think in relation to Mesaana, it is persuasive evidence, but there is no hard and fast rule, and so should not be taken to extremes. :-D

25

Flinn Sedai: 2004-02-18

Rhodric, you have a good idea, and a lot of evidence to support it, but Mesaana simply cannot be Shevan. We know that anybody who can channel and has enough strength can mask their ability to channel. Right.

Unfortunately, they cannot change how strong they appear to be. Unless people in the tower are so oblivious that they didnt notice that somebody extremely stronger than any of them is walking around, or somebody who cannot channel at all is AS, then it simply cant be true.

Personally, i think that Mesaana is the cook. not much evidence, but i think that since the Forsaken are supposed to create as much chaos as possible, then splitting the tower would definetely qualify. Also, she is the only non-channeler in the WT that we have heard much about. Just my two cents.

26

Callandor: 2004-02-18

**Unfortunately, they cannot change how strong they appear to be.**

Yes, they can. That is how Lanfear was able to pose as Else Grinwell in the Tower in TDR. She couldn't get rid of her ability totally, but couldn't have it fully shown, so she reduced it.

Also, RJ said it was possible in interviews.

27

Elder Haman: 2004-02-18

Why do people keep insisting that we "know" that you can't partialy mask strengh in the power?

There is no definative evidence either way- so we know nothing. What small hints we do get suggests that partial masking is possible- or that if it isn't RJ has got to make people very unobservent.

It also seems logical that one could partially mask one's channeling ability if you can totally mask it. I'm guessing you can partially mask, but I'm will to accept it if RJ decides that it's not. However, I don't think we can dismiss theories on the assumption that RJ will decide to exculed partial masking

28

Davian93: 2004-02-18

****Personally, i think that Mesaana is the cook. not much evidence, but i think that since the Forsaken are supposed to create as much chaos as possible, then splitting the tower would definetely qualify. Also, she is the only non-channeler in the WT that we have heard much about. Just my two cents.****

Not likely simply because the cook was also in NS and everyone has known her for years. Someone would notice is she changed all of a sudden. Besides Laras isn't vindictive, she actually helps people.

29

Rhodric: 2004-02-18

What i think is interesting is that originally i was against the idea of partial masking of channelling ability, ie making it so that people sense your strength to be less than it really is. And yet now it seems to be a key point to my theory.

Callandor, when did RJ say that it is possible for a channeller to let other channellers sense less strength in the OP than that channeller actually possesses?

30

Tigraine: 2004-02-19

Being the mythology buff that I am, I would like to note that the name Shevan is very similar to one Shiva (the Destroyer). It is interesting to note that some of the other Forsaken, when taking on psuedonyms, use names with double meanings. Lanfear took on "Silvie" and other luner-esque names, surely being RJ's way of pointing fingers at culprits. Shiva is the Hindu God of Destruction. Mesaana definitely had a hand in destroying the White Tower, as well as many other plans.

However, this brings up another interesting twist. We are told in the Great Hunt that two Heroes of the Horn are reborn at the end of each Age: Calian and Shivan. Shivan... Shevan... See where I'm going with this?

31

Rhodric: 2004-06-17

IN the original theory i said this

**(2) Velina, a Sitter for the White Ajah (not one of the temporary Sitters), is Black Ajah.**

the problem with this proposition is that it does not prove that Shevan is Mesaana. Rather, it relies on that idea. A fine example of erratic circular reasoning, if i may say so myself. ;)

So in the ensuing discussion (i assume there will be more, since i just factioned it), i wish you to discard this point from the discussion.

I don't even believe that Velina is BA anymore. I wrote that whole theory in one night and just crammed in anything i could think of that i thought might support it - hence Velina as BA being there.

So just ignore that, will ya? thanks.

32

Frenzy: 2004-08-17

If Mesaana/Shevan managed to get her Chair because the Brown 'fortunately' had a second Sitter rebel, then logically you'd assume that one of the two rebel Brown Sitters is also Black. The two that left were Takima and Janya. i know someone has a theory that Janya is Black, and going by the summary in the Encyclopedia WoT (link: http://www.photeus.com:8090/~ewot/characters/j/janya_frende.html), there is a lot of circumstantial evidence to support that theory.