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and, Mat, and The Crystal Throne
by zionsrose: 2005-05-18 | 3.06 out of 10 (17 votes)
Previous Categories: The Seanchan
I've been having a thought that has been plaguing me for a bit now (my brother and I have discussed it, he's also a WoT enthusiast, and we both agree). It is pretty well known that Tuon can learn to channel (despite attempts to discredit this fact) as she trains damane, and it is known that all those who train damane, sul'dam, are those who can learn to channel. Blah, blah, blah, Tuon can channel. It was also stated in one of the books (bear with me I cannot remember which) that the Empress was known to be very good at training damane before she ascended the throne. This sets out a history of women who can channel in this family.
Some more facts:
-> seeing the Empress at all is a great honor and privilege
-> everyone who has seen the Empress fervently wishes her continued safety, long life, etc.
Now here is what I am pondering, could the crystal throne be a ter'angreal? It would be possible, I think, not only for the fact that all who see her pretty much worship her, but there are the means to use the ter'angreal laid out by the ability to learn to channel being a family trait (although I do realize that some ter'angreal do not require the use of the one power, however this is just how everything organized itself in my mind).
Here is another thought that's been bouncing around in my head, the Seanchan prophecies include something about Rand kneeling down to the Empress, winning the last battle in her name etc.etc.
"Tuon nodded. She herself was not sure at all. That sort of sureness could lead to the Tower of the Ravens even for her. Perhaps especially for her. "I must find a way to make contact with the Dragon Reborn as soon as possible. He must kneel before the Crystal Throne before Tarmon Gai'don, or all is lost." The Prophecies of the Dragon said so, clearly."
And I was thinking that since Rand formed an alliance with Suroth, in the name of the Crystal Throne, that eventually Rand would meet the Empress. Now here is the sticky part, at the end of CoT there is mention of Suroth wanting Rand to meet the Daughter of the Nine Moons, who is in Mat's custody as of this time. There are implications in this that Suroth is going to use a stand-in for Tuon to cover up her disappearance and the bad omens associated with her disappearance for the Return.
Rand and Mat are, hopefully for the sake of my theory, going to be reunited before Rand meets the Empress, and from that know that he was shown a false heir the throne, which perhaps will display Suroth for the darkfriend that she is. It may also show Rand as having saved Tuon from an attempt to displace her as an heir to the throne, which the Empress would be grateful for and maybe unite the Seanchan to Rand more firmly. Rand could also be united to the Seanchan through Mat and Tuons union as well, since she will eventually ‘set the hook' on him.
Since it is highly unlikely that Tuon would be on the throne here is where the ter'angreal throne comes back into play. Rand would likely, with his inevitable meeting with the Empress, be shown to her while she is seated on the throne, and all that may save Rand from falling under the power of the ter'angreal would be either being in the void and the ter'angreal having no effect on him, or his ta'veren twisting will somehow save him (very sketchy I know and am sorry, however who knows what ta'veren twisting will do, perhaps land Rand with Mat's foxhead – who knows).
Rand may instead use Mat to connect to the Crystal Throne using Tuon (once he knows they will be/are married) to meet the Empress and Mat would be unaffected by the ter'angreal because of his fox head medallion. Although I am quite sure Rand will be meeting the Empress himself because of the power the Empress holds as well as the Seanchan prophecies.
But, whether it is Rand or Mat, however, their meeting will surely cause a great stir in the Seanchan from the ter'angreal power not having the usual effect.
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2005-06-02
First, you are correct, the Crystal Throne is a ter'angreal. "The Imperial family holds its power through intimidation as well as manipulation. The Crystal Throne itself is a great ter'angreal that causes anyone who approaches it to feel immense awe and wonder. Of course, only the reigning monarch is ever allowed to use it." However, the Crystal Throne is in Seanchan, so is it possible Rand and Mat and Tuon may make a trip to Seanchan? I wouldn't mind such a development, but I don't think it will necessarily turn out in Rand's favor, since the world will still be at war, even after Tarmon Gai'don, so it surely won't lead to peace with the Seanchan. Okay first theory. Attempt to include a more focused hypothesis, and then supporting it, versus bringing up a variety of thoughts with a variety of potential answers.
JakOShadows: 2005-06-03
It was an interesting thought. It seemed very unorganized, but I see where your going with. I like the idea in general though.
Callandor: 2005-06-03
**It was also stated in one of the books (bear with me I cannot remember which) that the Empress was known to be very good at training damane before she ascended the throne.**
If there is, I'd love to see it. Would make Tuon can Channel a known fact then.
**Since it is highly unlikely that Tuon would be on the throne here is where the ter'angreal throne comes back into play. Rand would likely, with his inevitable meeting with the Empress, be shown to her while she is seated on the throne, and all that may save Rand from falling under the power of the ter'angreal would be either being in the void and the ter'angreal having no effect on him, or his ta'veren twisting will somehow save him (very sketchy I know and am sorry, however who knows what ta'veren twisting will do, perhaps land Rand with Mat's foxhead – who knows).**
Two things:
1. RJ expressly said that no main character will ever go to Seanchan or Shara, except from what we have already seen (Rand and Avi going to Seanchan was the exception). So, Rand will not be going to see the Empress anytime soon.
2. The Prophecy the Seanchan believe in, is a fake. It was planted by Ishamael and is his "doom to come."
Tamyrlin: 2005-06-03
Callandor, can you quote that reference from Jordan. I thought he implied he might return to Seanchan, but only as he had before, for a short, limited moment. I didn't think he explicitly said Rand or any other main character would not be visiting, but it has been a long time since I have seen that quote.
Narianna: 2005-06-03
i disagree with your assumption that the empress was/is very good at training damane.IIRC the ONLY reference to the empress that has been made (other than may "she live for ever":) was that she remained silent when tuon decided to train damane.
The Leveler: 2005-06-03
I think the Crystal THrone is a binding chair. It was designed to work on non-channelers, which is why it says most of those who go before it.
Kantuna: 2005-06-03
"If muhammed won't go to the mountain the mountain must go to muhammed" So Rand won't go to Seanchan, but who says that The crystal throne is fixed down? Maybe it can be moved, but it's pretty unlikely. I think that the Empress will come to Randland in disguise - maybe she came, found out about Tuons disappearence and needs someone to blame (ie, Rand.) So, she recieves a request from the Dragon Reborn for a meeting, and an opportunity arises. The empress pretends to be the daughter of the nine moons so she can meet Rand.
From another angle, you say the prophecy of Rand kneeling to the crystal throne was planted by Ishamael. Well well well.
We've seen traps woven (From the power) that cannot be seen, and only affect types of people. For example, the traps Rand puts around Callandor so that only he can draw them. Here's an even better example...
LoC, Chapter 21 - "To Shadar Logoth"
"What he wove and then inverted was a vicious sort of trap to suit a vicious place. A ward of surpassing nastiness. Humans could cross it unharmed, perhaps even the forsaken - he could ward against humans or shadowspawn, not both-and even a male forsaken could not detect it."
Right, to the point. Ishamael wrote the extra prophecies saying that Rand should kneel to the crystal throne to have any chance of winning the last battle. When Rand hears this, he won't want to pass up anything that could lead to faliure, so he goes to teh throne.
Now, If Ishamael wove a trap around the throne that nobody else could see, which killed only men who could channel, Rand would be doomed as soon as he read the false prophecy. he would go to Seanchan, kneel before the throne and leave with a slight headache. Two days later, the Dragon reborn's dead, long live the Dark One, Ishamael's Nae'blis.
The odds of the weave being discovered are virtually impossible - the only effect is on men who channel, and in Seanchan they are killed on sight. Even if one was taken to the crystal throne, they would be executed long before the weave killed them.
Ishamael is the kind of person who would plan ahead like that, even centuries ahead - anticipating Lews Therin, he kills Rand.
Except that Rand isn't going to Seanchan, so this whole arguments a bit pointless. I suppose if it's true then it's an insight into Ishamaels mind. Or something. I'll stop babbling now.
Davian93: 2005-06-03
****I think the Crystal THrone is a binding chair. It was designed to work on non-channelers, which is why it says most of those who go before it. ****
But wouldnt a binding chair (used for punishment in the AoL) require the person to sit on the chair to receive punishment? I believe that the Crystal Throne is something else entirely.
Callandor: 2005-06-03
**Callandor, can you quote that reference from Jordan. I thought he implied he might return to Seanchan, but only as he had before, for a short, limited moment. I didn't think he explicitly said Rand or any other main character would not be visiting, but it has been a long time since I have seen that quote. **
Yep.
**Q: In a previous statement, I believe you had basically said that the action of the series would take place in the lands known to Rand and his friends, i.e. not Shara or Seanchan, and yet the new book has a lot of stuff about those lands. Have you changed your mind? Is action in either of these two lands a possibility now?
A: No. Except for the possible occasional divergence -- except for Rand's excursions to Seanchan when he chased after Aviendha. I was willing to put as much as I did into the guide because I will not be using those things in the books in the same way that I used Kandor or Saldaea.**
From interview reports:
**There are no plans to visit Seanchan in any greater extent than it already has been visited, and there are not going to be any visits to Shara either.**
**The empress pretends to be the daughter of the nine moons so she can meet Rand.**
One heck of a unlikely situation -- but alright.
**From another angle, you say the prophecy of Rand kneeling to the crystal throne was planted by Ishamael. Well well well.**
I do not say this -- the books do.
**Right, to the point. Ishamael wrote the extra prophecies saying that Rand should kneel to the crystal throne to have any chance of winning the last battle. When Rand hears this, he won't want to pass up anything that could lead to faliure, so he goes to teh throne.**
Maybe he will and maybe he won't. It's unknown, since Rand has heard the original part of the true Prophecies of the Dragon, as quoted by Moiraine in The Dragon Reborn.
**Now, If Ishamael wove a trap around the throne that nobody else could see, which killed only men who could channel, Rand would be doomed as soon as he read the false prophecy. he would go to Seanchan, kneel before the throne and leave with a slight headache. Two days later, the Dragon reborn's dead, long live the Dark One, Ishamael's Nae'blis.**
In theory, there is nothing wrong with this, except a few things:
1. The Shadow for the time being wanted Rand alive, and now his death seems like a last course of action rather than a pursuit.
2. The Crystal Throne is in Seandar, Seanchan, and no characters will be going there anytime soon.
3. The Throne does not have to be solely in Seanchan, it could of course be moved to Randland -- but what is the point of having Tuon speak for the Empress, if the Empress was planning to come to Randland anyway?
Anyway, put your minds at rest people:
**TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time, CHAPTER: Imperial Control
The Imperial family holds its power through intimidation as well as manipulation. The Crystal Throne itself is a great ter'angreal that causes anyone who approaches it to feel immense awe and wonder. Of course, only the reigning monarch is ever allowed to use it.**
snakes-n-foxes: 2005-06-03
Part of the prophecies of the dragon says "and he shall bind the nine moons to serve him"
Kantuna: 2005-06-04
Callandor,
1. "The Shadow for the time being wanted Rand alive, and now his death seems like a last course of action rather than a pursuit. "
The SHADOW (ie, the dark one,) wanted Rand alive, but many of teh forsaken have shown that would have killed him if they had the chance. They know that if Rand comes to the shadow then he will probably be made Nae'blis, and, obviously, all of the Forsaken want that position. If tehy found a chance to kill Rand, they would have done. Besides, Ishamael was free for centuries before the others, if not longer. Plenty of time to set up a trap to kill Rand, with nobody knowing it was there, not even the Dark One (It would only take minutes to travel to Seandar, set up a trap and travel back while everyone else is sealed with the DO.)
2."The Crystal Throne is in Seandar, Seanchan, and no characters will be going there anytime soon."
I don't think I made myself clear. I think that Ishamael set up a trap, but I don't think that Rand will ever get there to set it off. IF he is going to die (Which he isn't), then it would be in the Last battle, not in some far off country by a simple trap laid by a dead (Possibly) man. RJ is too an author to just end it like that. Trap or no trap, Rand isn't going to go there anyway. That's why it's a pointless argument.
3."The Throne does not have to be solely in Seanchan, it could of course be moved to Randland -- but what is the point of having Tuon speak for the Empress, if the Empress was planning to come to Randland anyway?"
Fair point.
sarutobi: 2005-06-04
Well what do you think would happen if a doorway just appeared in the middle of the seanchan throneroom? My guess is whatever exited that door would be killed on sight by the empresses damane. You could say he just went when they werent there but how would he now when they left and why would he take the risk?
Callandor: 2005-06-04
**The SHADOW (ie, the dark one,) wanted Rand alive, but many of teh forsaken have shown that would have killed him if they had the chance. They know that if Rand comes to the shadow then he will probably be made Nae'blis, and, obviously, all of the Forsaken want that position. If tehy found a chance to kill Rand, they would have done. Besides, Ishamael was free for centuries before the others, if not longer. Plenty of time to set up a trap to kill Rand, with nobody knowing it was there, not even the Dark One (It would only take minutes to travel to Seandar, set up a trap and travel back while everyone else is sealed with the DO.)**
1. Yes, I have been here for a while, and am a proponant of Ishamael being free before the others. However this was on a cyclical nature, not as a total freedom as you seem to be saying.
2. Yes, the Dark One wanted Rand turned -- but so did Ishamael in the first 3 books, so why would he set wards around something he most likely has never seen, in order to kill Rand, when he originially wants to turn him?
3. Of course the Forsaken want to be Nae'blis -- but Ishamael freely takes the course of action for 3 books of turning Rand and his motives for abandoning that course of action are not because he suddenly remembered he wanted to be Nae'blis -- it's because Rand always refused.
**IF he is going to die (Which he isn't), then it would be in the Last battle, not in some far off country by a simple trap laid by a dead (Possibly) man.**
Off topic, but Rand will die in the Last Battle ;-).
snakes-n-foxes: 2005-06-05
"2. Yes, the Dark One wanted Rand turned -- but so did Ishamael in the first 3 books, so why would he set wards around something he most likely has never seen, in order to kill Rand, when he originially wants to turn him?"
As a back-up plan ?
Kantuna: 2005-06-05
How about this then.
Ishamael was free to go into TAR pretty much whenever we want (We know this from the first books when he drags Rand Mat and Perrin in whenever they go to sleep. He could go via TAR (where there are no damane, Sarutobi,) and set the trap from in there. This would affect the real world as we saw when Egwene and co were trying to escape from the Stone of Tear.
2. Ishamael was free before the others, and free to go about his own (Possibly limited) way. With the dark one sealed in Shayol Ghul, Ishamael has less orders, and nobody even knows that the Dragon has been reborn - because as of yet he hasn't. Ishamael wants to be Nae'blis, however he can. He sets about trying to prepare to kill the dragon in order to secure his way to the metaphorical throne. When the Dragon is reborn and the DO and co begin to rise, Ishamael gets new orders. The Forsaken are told that if they turn the DR to the shadow, they will be rewarded. They must know that they won't be Nae'blis, but the only way they can be is if tDR is killed - which the shadow doesn't want. This means that the only way to become Nae'blis is to kill tDR, and if you kill tDR, you will be killed.
(Who says he's never seen the Crystal throne? He wrote prophecies about it when it might just be a white chair that's been exaggerated because of it's Ter'angreal properties.)
3. Same answer as before, really. He tried to anticipate the DO and got it wrong, so now his plans have to change. Of course, if tDR does bow to the throne, there's no evidence to say it was him...
By the way, where in the books does it say Rand will die is the last battle? There is NO EVIDENCE that he will, and it's a common technique. Tell the readers something often enough and they'll believe it. "His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul" not "His lifeless corpse on the rocks of Shayol Ghul."
Sorry, but you're wrong :)
Davian93: 2005-06-05
****By the way, where in the books does it say Rand will die is the last battle? There is NO EVIDENCE that he will, and it's a common technique. Tell the readers something often enough and they'll believe it. "His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul" not "His lifeless corpse on the rocks of Shayol Ghul."****
It never does...which most people convienently ignore. People that have read all of the Karatheon Cycle say that it implies that Rand will die at the last battle. Like you stated with "his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul". Bleeding does not equal death.
Also from the Karaethon prophecy:
"His blood shall give us the Light"
"Twice and twice shall he be marked, twice to live, and twice to die,
Once the heron to set his path. Twice the heron, to name him true.
Once the Dragon for remembrance lost. Twice the Dragon for the price he must pay."
"Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.
"Once for mourning, once for birth.
Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.
In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow"
"His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul, washing away the Shadow, sacrifice for man's salvation"
Rand, in the ter'angreal at Tear, asked specifically how he could survive the Last Battle. His answer: To live you must die. That is the answer...so somewhow Rand is killed at the Last Battle and (shudders) is Resurrected and lives. This is supported by Rand on a boat with his 3 wives, etc. Rand vanishing into obscurity, probably badly injured/burned out and is never heard of again.
The Dragons Steward of The Mat Fan Club: 2005-06-05
Has anyone speculated that this constant referall to 'his blood' may be referring to his children? Doesn't make much sense for them to die to save the world as of this point, but I wouldn't put the play on words past RJ.
Callandor: 2005-06-05
**He sets about trying to prepare to kill the dragon in order to secure his way to the metaphorical throne.**
Which is inconsistant with his motives in The Eye of the World, The Great Hunt, and The Dragon Reborn -- in each of those novels he tries to turn Rand to the Dark, by coersion or by force.
**When the Dragon is reborn and the DO and co begin to rise, Ishamael gets new orders. The Forsaken are told that if they turn the DR to the shadow, they will be rewarded.**
The Dark One may have been sealed, but going to Shayol Ghul you can still get orders from him -- Ishamael had that ability so he would've known those orders long before anyone else. Hence, not set that trap.
**(Who says he's never seen the Crystal throne? He wrote prophecies about it when it might just be a white chair that's been exaggerated because of it's Ter'angreal properties.)**
By everything we know, Ishamael just told Hawkwing's decendants to set sail, and corrupted their version of the Prophecies.
**3. Same answer as before, really. He tried to anticipate the DO and got it wrong, so now his plans have to change. Of course, if tDR does bow to the throne, there's no evidence to say it was him...**
And once again, this is all supposition down to every part of your idea.
**By the way, where in the books does it say Rand will die is the last battle? There is NO EVIDENCE that he will, and it's a common technique. Tell the readers something often enough and they'll believe it. "His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul" not "His lifeless corpse on the rocks of Shayol Ghul."
Sorry, but you're wrong :)**
Really?
**TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 26 - Discord
"Twice and Twice shall he be marked, ~Twice to live, and Twice to die.~ Once the heron, to set his path. Twice the heron, to name him true. Once the Dragon, for remembrance lost. Twice the Dragon, for the price he must pay.'**
That's funny -- it looks like evidence.
**Rand, in the ter'angreal at Tear, asked specifically how he could survive the Last Battle. His answer: To live you must die. That is the answer...so somewhow Rand is killed at the Last Battle and (shudders) is Resurrected and lives. This is supported by Rand on a boat with his 3 wives, etc. Rand vanishing into obscurity, probably badly injured/burned out and is never heard of again.**
And this is a ludicrious idea -- as well as impossible.
No one can be brought back to life once they are dead, unless they have sworn themselves to the Shadow.
**BWB: page 13 - 16, CHAPTER: 1 - The Wheel and the Pattern
The only known forces outside the Wheel and the Pattern are the Creator, who shaped the Wheel, the One Power that drives it--as well as the plan for the Great Pattern--and the Dark One, who was imprisoned outside the pattern by the Creator at the moment of creation. ~No one inside and of the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern.~ Even those who are [i]ta'veren[/i] can only alter, but not completely change, the weave. It is believed that if he escapes his prison, the Dark One, being a creature or force beyond creation, has the ability to remake the Wheel and all of creation in his own dark image. Thus each person, especially each of those born [i]ta'veren[/i], must struggle to achieve his or her own best destiny to assure the balance and continuation of the Great Pattern.**
When the Pattern says you are dead, you are dead. Nynaeve magically finding out how to Heal Rand back to life isn't going to be happening (nor Flinn, nor any other channeler you wish to ascribe this impossiblity to).
And, the Creator will not bring Rand back to life for a very simple reason: he does not interfere. Ever.
The entire series has not been about the Last Battle -- it's about Rand's soul. The Last Battle is just a means to an end. In The Dragon Reborn, Ishamael tries to forcefully remove Rand's soul. Why? Either of two things:
1. Somehow "take" it to the Dark One (traveling soul sounds kinda iffy, but whatever) so that the Dragon has turned.
2. Far more likely, destroy it for all time.
The second fits in, because Ishamael has been threatening to do that to Rand since he first saw him, unless he turned to the Shadow.
Why would he do this, instead of just outright killing Rand? Most likely, the Dragon's soul is intergral to the Dark One's escape. How, who knows -- it's just the most likely situation.
If the Dark One gets a hold of Rand's soul, it's game over. If the Dragon's soul is destroyed forever, it's game over. This is how Rand dies and lives again.
Rand will physically die. Not no "fake death" or serious injury or any crap like that -- Rand is DEAD. Period.
But his soul is returned to the soul pool to be reborn again and again for the rest of time (as it always has been).
Rand being magically Healed to life makes no sense, because then we have a world of immortals as long as there is a Healer around.
Plus, what is Rand going to do if he's still alive? Go into obscurity is always the answer. And it's so flaky. Yes, the mad channeler, with 3 wives, and half the world wants to praise him like a god, the other half wants to kill him in an instant, as well as the strongest ta'veren in the world, just walks off into the sunset. This isn't Dune.
Rand ~will~ die in the Last Battle -- theres no point for him not to, and everything is indicating it. His soul will go on to be reborn again and again throughout the Ages. Join the faction.
snakes-n-foxes: 2005-06-06
I've never thought that Rand would die at the last battle. Once again, his blood on the rocks of SG does not mean his death.
Yhe 'twice to live and twice to die line', just like any other line in reference to his death, does not give a time frame.
There is also the problem with prophecy in that it often speaks metaphorically.
When the snakes said 'to live you must die' I saw this to equal mins viewing where Aviendha, Elayne, and her were standing around the boat looking at rands dead body, and Alicia's 'you must help him die' thingy...damned it's been ages since I read the books, I need to go back and read them again, but it all seemed part of a whole when I read them :)
Davian93: 2005-06-07
****Rand ~will~ die in the Last Battle -- theres no point for him not to, and everything is indicating it. His soul will go on to be reborn again and again throughout the Ages. Join the faction****
Nope, not gonna happen...Rand will somehow survive the Last Battle. RJ likes happy endings too much for that not to happen...not to mention everyone thinking the prophecies "seem" to imply that Rand will die makes me think that it wont happen...Its the ultimate red herring.
Callandor: 2005-06-07
**There is also the problem with prophecy in that it often speaks metaphorically.**
And I shall quote the books for why I think that is just a poor excuse:
**TITLE: Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 5 - Nightmares Walking
"If it were as simple as that," Moiraine said grimly, ~"I would, one way or another, but not all in The Karaethon Cycle can be taken at its face. For everything it says straight out, there are ten that could mean a hundred different things.~ Do not think you know anything at all of what must be, even if someone has told you the whole of the Prophecies." She paused, as if gathering strength. Her grip tightened on the angreal, and her free hand slid along Rand's side as if it were not covered in blood. "Brace yourself."**
The Prophecies do contain things that are not simply metaphorical.
The viewing on the boat is the same thing as the to live you must die -- Rand had died (hence the funneral), and his soul has lived on to be reborn again and again.
Callandor: 2005-06-07
**Nope, not gonna happen...Rand will somehow survive the Last Battle. RJ likes happy endings too much for that not to happen...not to mention everyone thinking the prophecies "seem" to imply that Rand will die makes me think that it wont happen...Its the ultimate red herring.**
Who says RJ likes happy ending? You? What are you basing that on?
We haven't ~SEEN~ the ending of this series, yet everyone is saying "Oh, RJ loves happy endings."
Wake up people. Yes, this story has a happy ending -- the Light wins. We know that already. The point is: at what ~price~? That price is obviously Rand's death, and more than likely a lot more people.
Hello! Rand is a martyr! He is a messiah! He is the archetype for all those types. What are those people -- if they do not die for what they believe? Nothing. Every messiah dies. Every martyr dies.
And guess what? Rand will die.
Ultimate red herring? No. It's so blatantly obvious, it makes people ~think~ it's a red herring.
siswai aman: 2005-06-07
"When the Pattern says you are dead, you are dead. Nynaeve magically finding out how to Heal Rand back to life isn't going to be happening (nor Flinn, nor any other channeler you wish to ascribe this impossiblity to).
And, the Creator will not bring Rand back to life for a very simple reason: he does not interfere. Ever."
You are correct in your above statement...mostly. Nynaeve nor anybody else will ever learn to heal the dead. However, there are specific people the Wheel continues to weave time and time again, i.e. Birgitte, Gaidal Cain, etc. These people are bound to the Wheel and always come back as themselves, even though they don't know it until they die again. I believe tDR (ie Rand) will continue to live again and again.
Callandor: 2005-06-07
**However, there are specific people the Wheel continues to weave time and time again, i.e. Birgitte, Gaidal Cain, etc. These people are bound to the Wheel and always come back as themselves, even though they don't know it until they die again. I believe tDR (ie Rand) will continue to live again and again.**
That's not what I mean. Everyone is reborn again and again -- it's not specific to just the Heroes of the Horn.
The soul is indestructable in Randland. The body dies, the soul returns to the "soul pool" to await rebirth.
But people are stating that Rand will either:
A. Somehow never die in the Last Battle even though he is prophecized.
or
B. Will die, but somehow be brought to life.
Death is death in Randland. You die. It's over. It's the end. (unless you're sworn to the Dark One like the Forsaken)
For a little while. Because everyone is reborn again -- it's just that when you die, you go to await the next rebirth. No going back to what you left.
Hank McCoy: 2005-06-07
COS--"She had learned much since Ishamael appeared to her, not least that the Chosen were neither omnipotent nor all-knowing. She had risen because Ishamael killed her predecessor in his wrath at discovering what Jarna Malari had begun, yet it had not ended for another two years, after the death of another Amyrlin. She often wondered whether Elaida had had any hand in the death of that one, Sierin Vayu; certainly the Black Ajah had not."
I think it is very clear in the quote that Ishamael was very upset about the killing spree that occurred in NS after it was Foretold that the Dragon was reborn. Therefore, you can conclude that Ishamael wanted the Dragon alive; not dead as suggested by some responses.
Anubis: 2005-06-07
If noone can be brought back from the dead then how is Rand going to die twice? Note that it doesnt say to be reborn again and again as the dragon and keep everything going, it very specificly says twice. This leaves me thinking two things.
1. First time living was LTT, then he died at Dragonmount, then he lives again as Rand and dies again at the Last Battle.
2. Rand lives, sacrafices all, metaphoricly dies and discovers life again. Really, is this much of a streach? First of all the prophecies are talking about events to come, not events that have already half happened. Secondly how many times have we heard that Rand needs to rediscover laughter and tears? Aka life its self.
And saying Rand wont come back to life is stupid. He will or the prophecy wont be fulfilled. Its not like its impossible for people to come back from the dead in randland. Its only happened what.... 5 times since the series started? (toxic twins, ishmael, matt and asmodean).
You say that Rand is the archetype for a messiah. Its been a while since I went to church but one of the fundamental beliefs of christians is the belief that the messiah died, and was ressurected. Not reborn, there is a big difference.
Anubis: 2005-06-07
**No one can be brought back to life once they are dead, unless they have sworn themselves to the Shadow. **
Flat out wrong. Rand brought Matt and Asmodean back to life by balefireing Rahvin.
Callandor: 2005-06-07
**Flat out wrong. Rand brought Matt and Asmodean back to life by balefireing Rahvin.**
Not wrong -- pre-planned by the Pattern. For all intensive purposes, Mat really didn't "die."
**If noone can be brought back from the dead then how is Rand going to die twice? Note that it doesnt say to be reborn again and again as the dragon and keep everything going, it very specificly says twice. This leaves me thinking two things.**
Oh, so die isn't believed in the prophecy, but twice is? ;)
**And saying Rand wont come back to life is stupid. He will or the prophecy wont be fulfilled. Its not like its impossible for people to come back from the dead in randland. Its only happened what.... 5 times since the series started? (toxic twins, ishmael, matt and asmodean).**
I every case it was a Forsaken brought back. Mat was pre-planning by the Pattern (hence why the Aelfinn knew about it months before it happened), and he never truely "died" since his destiny was never altered or changed by that.
**You say that Rand is the archetype for a messiah. Its been a while since I went to church but one of the fundamental beliefs of christians is the belief that the messiah died, and was ressurected. Not reborn, there is a big difference.**
1. I don't say Rand is a messiah -- that's RJ saying it, and me quoting him.
2. I know that RJ doesn't take influences from the real world entirely. The belief from the Christian view is that Jesus was brought back by God (and christian want to educate me on religion, do it elsewhere please) -- obvious parallel is that Rand will be brought back by the Creator. Perfectly viable -- except we know that the Creator ~NEVER~ interferes. Rand won't be coming back that way.
And for someone else to "resurrect" him, is either a dramatic change in Rand's destiny, which ~is~ flat out impossible for someone who is in and of the Pattern to do, as well as being a total literary crap storm (dues ex machina, anyone? anyone? -- more shown by the Creator doing it, but it's pretty dang close anyway), AS WELL as being a logical nightmare:
Now everyone is an immortal in Randland as long as they have an Aes Sedai in good favor who is good at Healing.
It takes the great and wonderful world RJ has created, set upon by rules, and rips it apart like 15 5-year olds and pinata.
Anubis: 2005-06-07
If Matt didnt die then the Finns prophecy that he would die and live again wasnt fulfilled. You cant have it both ways. Who cares that it was planned by the pattern? Rands death is planned by the pattern, theres prophecies about it, doesnt make it a fake death or anything.
Anubis: 2005-06-08
****If noone can be brought back from the dead then how is Rand going to die twice? Note that it doesnt say to be reborn again and again as the dragon and keep everything going, it very specificly says twice. This leaves me thinking two things.**
Oh, so die isn't believed in the prophecy, but twice is? ;) **
What are you talking about? He is going to die twice. You simply can not do that without somehow coming back to life. Doesnt happen.
"Twice and twice shall he be marked, twice to live and twice to die."
Callandor: 2005-06-08
**If Matt didnt die then the Finns prophecy that he would die and live again wasnt fulfilled. You cant have it both ways. Who cares that it was planned by the pattern? Rands death is planned by the pattern, theres prophecies about it, doesnt make it a fake death or anything.**
Who cares if it was pre-planned? Uh, the Pattern??
It was Mat's ~destiny~ to "die" there. It was pre-planned by the Pattern, and it was going to happen and be undone. That is ~not~ altering the Pattern for a person's destiny -- since the Pattern planned for it! How hard is that?
With the Forsaken, it is the Dark One, a being not inside and of the Pattern, bringing them back. Pre-planned or not? We don't know, but it's highly unlikely it was, since it had to be the Dark One who brought them back.
Everyone says Rand will be "resurrected" in some fashion -- it is not possible because he is ~destined~ to die. It is Foretold by the Pattern. Changing that would be changing his destiny -- and that is impossible for anyone inside and of the Pattern. Period.
Narianna: 2005-06-08
a problem with those who believe rand will die at Tarmon Gaidon.
it is obvious that they are taking the bit "die" in the prophecy literally.
so far so good.
but if that is so then they should take "live" also literally.
and this makes trouble for those who believe rand's dying and his soul's surviving fulfills the prophecy.
that is because the prophecy specifically mentions living "twice" and since we are taking the prophecy literally, rand's soul surviving would mean "living" many times not twice.
Thus, the belief that rand would die at last battle is inherently flawed.
you can't take half a prophecy literal and the other half metaphorical.
p.s. i don't believe that there is a weave that heals death.
Callandor: 2005-06-08
**but if that is so then they should take "live" also literally.**
Rand lived a life in the world, and his soul lives on. What's the point?
**and this makes trouble for those who believe rand's dying and his soul's surviving fulfills the prophecy.**
No, it really doesn't.
**that is because the prophecy specifically mentions living "twice" and since we are taking the prophecy literally, rand's soul surviving would mean "living" many times not twice.**
Er... ok.
Rand was spun out by the Wheel into his body -- he lived. He then dies. His soul lives on. Where's the difficulty?
**p.s. i don't believe that there is a weave that heals death.**
Ah, so what is your great cosmic plan for Rand surviving? Never dying in the first place? Creator doing it? The Dark One somehow doing it? Torn out of tel'aran'rhiod?
Anubis: 2005-06-08
**It was Mat's ~destiny~ to "die" there. It was pre-planned by the Pattern, and it was going to happen and be undone. That is ~not~ altering the Pattern for a person's destiny -- since the Pattern planned for it! How hard is that? **
Not hard at all, especially considering that I never once argued that the pattern didnt plan for Matts death. In fact quite the oppoiste. I never once said that the pattern would be altered for Rands sake, you seem to think im implying some Deus Ex Machina. All im saying is that Rand is going to live and die twice. You seem to think this is somehow different then Matts case. It isnt. In both cases we have a person being told that they were going to die and live by people who arent capable of being wrong.
Narianna: 2005-06-09
callandor , my difficulty is with the twice living part in the prophecy.
he was bornon dragonmount and say he dies in the last battle.he has then lived and died ONLY ONCE.now you say that his soul survives and that is sufficient to fulfill the prophecy.
i say it does not. where will he live his second "life"? when will he "die" SECOND time?
therefore IMHO rand's first death MUST be metaphorical.i believe that he will not die physically in the last battle(thus no question of deux e machina).
he may loose his tavaren status,may be more than half insane,may loose his girl friends i don't know what kind of life he will live after last battle.
but he must live at least for some time for this prophecy to be fulfilled.
ilgross: 2005-06-09
Rand will fake his death. And then go away and live happily ever after with his three wifes.
---Logain, laughing, stepped across something on the ground and mounted a black stone; when she looked down, she thought it was Rand's body he had stepped over, laid out on a funeral bier with his hands crossed at his breast, but when she touched his face, it broke apart like a paper puppet.-----
Eggy's dream, the face breaking away shows how Rand isn't really dead, its just a fake.
Alivia will 'help' him die, in that she doesn't kill him, but helps him fake his death.
Narianna: 2005-06-09
sounds like a too good ending to me:)
rand may not have everything hunky-dorky at the end of his war BUT HE MUST BLOODY LIVE FOR SOME TIME AFTER THE LB.
snakes-n-foxes: 2005-06-09
I really can't see why the foxes saying "To live you must die" and the prophecies of the dragon saying "twice to live and twice to die" aren't read in exactly the same context. Then alivia 'must help rand to die'...to me it's blatantly obviously that they are all tied together.
Callandor: 2005-06-09
**he was bornon dragonmount and say he dies in the last battle.he has then lived and died ONLY ONCE.now you say that his soul survives and that is sufficient to fulfill the prophecy.
i say it does not. where will he live his second "life"? when will he "die" SECOND time?**
What even says he has to? The twices could easily be refering to the symolism of the Prophecy: two herons for him being the Dragon Reborn (obvious since that did not happen until he had them botht) and the two Dragons for his death.
**he may loose his tavaren status,may be more than half insane,may loose his girl friends i don't know what kind of life he will live after last battle.
but he must live at least for some time for this prophecy to be fulfilled.**
He did live for some time -- he's lived for over 20 years.
**Rand will fake his death. And then go away and live happily ever after with his three wifes.**
One of whom will die in 40-50 years, another who is going to be Queen of Andor (not exactly a hidden position), and one who most likely will become an Aiel Wise One.
Not to mention, again, half mad, unHealable wounds, and half the world wants to name him the Creator, and the other half would kill him in a heartbeat.
**rand may not have everything hunky-dorky at the end of his war BUT HE MUST BLOODY LIVE FOR SOME TIME AFTER THE LB.**
What says so, besides your opinion?
brother of Battles: 2005-06-09
Look at it like this;
twice to live=
he lived once as LTT and now he is living as Rand al'Thor. That twice.
twice to die=
He died once as LTT and someday he will die as Rand al'Thor. Thats twice
matoyak: 2005-06-09
does rand have any other relations that are living at moment (other than children)?
Anubis: 2005-06-09
Luc and Galad are his half brothers.
And its funny Brother of Battles, I already posted that idea. I dont like it for two reasons.
1. Prophecies are about things in the future.
2. To live you must die.
solomonrex: 2005-06-09
Let's get back to the crystal throne theory:
It can still work out.
1. Empress dies.
2. Tuon crowned.
3. Throne brought to Tuon in Randland.
I still think it's the sad bracelets, not the throne, that will ensnare Rand, but this would be a cool twist.
Tristin: 2005-06-09
I don't agree with this, but if "to live you must die" could refer to live again (be reincarnated) you have to die. i.e., the dark one must not be allowed to remake the wheel. or something about how to continue the wheels turning (and rand's reincarnation) rand must first be killed. There doesn't seem to be an other option except maybe becoming Nae'Blis and getting eternal life (which seems to be just another body anyway). In short, the whole thing COULD be an some kind of allusion to Rand's mortality being tied to the good health of the pattern and the wheel...does seem a bit of a strech though.
Heron: 2005-06-10
If Rand is going to die twice, he will do it as Rand. Not as his soul, spun out as somebody else, but as Rand. Perhaps he will die the way that Mat died, erased from time, but however it happens, Rand will stay Rand for a second death. Think for a moment: if ones soul exists AFTER one's DEATH, that seems to indicate that a soul's existance cannot be called life, as it is not ended by death. Rand's soul cannot "live on", as it cannot live. It exists, and is associated with many lives, however souls are associated with lives, but it does not live on its own. Here's a radical thought that just came to me. RJ said somewhere, and I'm sorry, but I can't remember where, that Rand has one soul and two pwersonalities. If one personality dies, he still lives, he's got a surplus. I don't know how that meshes with what I've said here, though.
WCDWarder: 2005-06-15
I am always amazed at how easily we can get off topic on these theories. With that in mind, I will comment on the theory first, and the subsequent discussion about Rand dying second.
First, I have to say I agree with the majority of replies questioning this theory. Based on the quotes from RJ and that the underlying facts include a false prophecy, I don't see how Rand kneels before the Crystal Throne. I could be more specific, but all of that has been discussed enough for me and hopefully you.
As for whether Rand lives or dies, in reading the discussion, I found myself agreeing with Callandor at first, which always makes me uncomfortable. But as I read on, I was swayed by the points made by Narianna and others. If the prophecy about Rand's death is taken literally, then the whole thing must be taken literally, not small portions within the same sentence. It is argued that if Rand must die, then he must die twice. But where does it say that he must live and die twice? Assuming, arguendo, that he does, then there must be some reversal of death in there somewhere. Does that mean that Alivia helps him "die" in order to live? Very possible in light of the quoted language. Does it mean that he will be resurrected by a channeler? Absolutely not, and I'm not sure anyone has even suggested that will happen. A third possibility is that he is brought back to life through the effects of Balefire, just like Matt and Asmodean.
But the question remains, what is the prophecy actually saying? (Here I sway back to Callandor again.)
**TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 26 - Discord
"Twice and Twice shall he be marked, ~Twice to live, and Twice to die.~ Once the heron, to set his path. Twice the heron, to name him true. Once the Dragon, for remembrance lost. Twice the Dragon, for the price he must pay.'**
If we parse this bit by bit, we may have a clue. It says he will be marked twice with the heron and twice with the dragon. It says he is marked twice to live and twice to die. It does not say that he will be marked twice to live twice, or marked twice to die twice. Only that he will be marked twice and twice, to live and to die. Taken literally, it suggests two marks will be to live, and two marks will be to die.
This is where I need to do some research (if only I had the time). What two marks allowed him to live? Arguably, the two dragon marks allowed him to live by being proven the Car-a-Carn(sp? – sorry been a while since I read the books). Certainly he would have faced grave danger (“Is there any other kind?”) if he did not earn dragon both marks as he did. But that doesn't mesh with the obvious meaning of remembrance lost for the first dragon, nor does it allow the obvious conclusion regarding the price he must pay.
So have the herons allowed him to live? Well he certainly earned them defeating possible death. And as a blademaster, he has barely managed to survive. Could it be this simple? If so, then the two dragons, including the price he must pay, would indicate his death is imminent.
Right now, I have to say that I am leaning toward Callandor's belief that Rand dies, but Eg's dream about Alivia troubles me. And I am assuming the price he must pay is his life, and not some other price like the loss of his channeling ability, the loss of a loved one, living with being the one who broke the world again, the loss of his independent identity, or any of the other possible losses he may suffer/prices he must pay. I might be swayed from my current position, or my position may be bolstered by another posting as well. But for now, it looks like he lives once and dies once. And most of us do it in that order.
raistlin: 2005-06-16
this whole "to live you must die" thing. I'm gonna advance a supposition which im not sure about myself lol. We have cadsuane who is going to try and teach Rand to feel/laugh/cry again. Could it possibly be his feelings dying- him becoming steel and then harder than steel as he forges himself through the fires of the womens list in his mind ( as shown in far madding when he is captured an place in the tiny cell). In effect it could be his humanity dying and this will enable him to do something that if he felt sympathy or fear he could not normally do which could set up the DO fall. Then cadsuane could teach him his lesson and he could 'feel' or live again and then deal with the DO......
ALSO to address the above point sure the seanchan have the male a'dam from when they captured egeanin's ship before she had a chance to throw it into the ocean- so rand could be made to kneel before the throne.
Callandor: 2005-06-17
**ALSO to address the above point sure the seanchan have the male a'dam from when they captured egeanin's ship before she had a chance to throw it into the ocean- so rand could be made to kneel before the throne.**
If Rand ever went near it, he might do it himself. The issue is, that RJ has told us that no other main character will go to Seanchan or any other land, save what has already occured (Rand and Avi's excusion to Seanchan in The Fires of Heaven). So, unless Tuon physically brought the Crytsal Throne to Ebou Dar -- it isn't in Randland and Rand won't be kneeling before it.
Added into that, is the knowledge that Ishamael did mess with the Prophecies of the Dragon that the Seanchan took, and that part of the Prophecies is singled out to not be apart of the true versions that are in Randland (and were originially in Seanchan, before the Seanchan took it over ;)).
Ashaman Thunder Leader: 2005-06-18
I think you're wrong about one thing. The Prophecies were more than likely changed to make the Crystal Throne more powerful. Egeanin said in Book nine I think that Hawkwing's son brought a pure version of the prophecies with him to Seanchan. However this means that they were the same in Randland. So why don't they say the Dragon must kneel before the Crystal Throne too? It's likely it wasn't even known as the Crystal Throne when the prophecies were written so why would they call it that? My bet is that somewhere along the line the Emperor or Empress of Seanchan changed the prophecies because it made their Empire look better. I might submit a Theory about this if no one else has.
Cantstopreadingnow: 2005-06-20
Isn't it possible for Rand to metaphorically "kneel" before the Crystal Throne? He could do that in a message ceding them power or something. I don't see why he would have to be literally at the throneroom in Seanchan to kneel before it.
Oh, and I also agree that Rand "living on to be reborn again in the pattern" doesn't fit the criteria of living twice and dieing twice. It seems to me that living as Telemon doesn't count as well, since the propecies are about the Dragon Reborn, not the Dragon, and I consider them to be different people.
apoorv020: 2009-07-02
About Rand bowing to the crystal throne, thats been pretty much decided now(since there is no longer a throne) but about Seanchen prophecies... it seems to be a classic case of changing history(or in this case prophecy) to justify and glorify your rule. Since the dragon reborn is supposed to save the world and is supposed to bow before the crystal throne, it is probably a scam to enhance the image of the throne and the empress.