1
Tamyrlin: 2003-01-31
I figured that Ishy had been working behind in the scenes in Seanchan, but I don't think I ever added Luthair to that idea. It makes sense. I have a theory that Lanfear and Ishy were involved heavily with the Seanchan "return". Do you think the current Empress is a darkfriend? She did send Suroth, and she did allow Semirhage to team up with her daughter. I would support that idea...maybe it is time for a new faction.
2
Dedicated: 2003-01-31
Quick question Tam. Are you also a believer in the Semirhage/Anath deal? In answer, I do believe the current Empress (and maybe all the Seanchan Empresses) is a darkfriend. Who but a darkfriend would give control of the Seanchan empire's "Return" to another darkfriend? It was all just timed too well to be coincidence. Now, don't get me wrong, there are "good" Seanchan people, it's just that I believe their empire is run by darkfriends and Forsaken. And they're a huge pain in the ass for Rand. The Seanchan military's might is a daunting thing even for the Dragon Reborn. The "Ever Victorious Army" has honed it's skills through almost 2000 years of constant turmoil and rebellion. To me, this is just further proof that the Seanchan were simply part of Ishy's master plan. Gotta love that evil, evil bastard.
I am seriously considering a faction for this. Tam, you could be a charter member for my first faction. That is if you believe in what my creed states. I'll post it and see what everybody thinks.
3
Callandor: 2003-01-31
I'm willing to bet that the Empress didnt give total control of the Return to Suroth. I think that she more or less said "Go get a little piece of land for my daughter to establish on and ill give you something pretty."
As of WH I thought it was Tuon that was leading the Return? Because it sure seemed like it to me that she was acting like she knew what was going on with all of the Seanchan.
Anyway the whole Ishy starting the Seanchan is interesting but Hawkwings advisor might have been on one of his "long journeys" when he sent Luthair to Seanchan. And their country being run by Darkfriends... I dont think entirely. Sure there are Darkfriends, remember they are EVERYWHERE, but Tuon isn't a Darkfriend (at least from what we have seen and its kinda doubtful that she could/would be) and she stands to inhairet the throne.
And on a sidenote: has anyone else recognized the grolm the Seanchan use as horses are what Rand shoots to save Lanfear in the alternate world in TGH? I could've sworn that I saw something in the Guide that said the creatures from Seanchan are from that alternate world but I just can't find it.
4
Galadriel: 2003-01-31
Somebody help me look this up, but I seem to remember in the first book or second, Ishamael was talking to Rand and he said something like he whispered in Hawkwing's ear and Artur sent his only son across the ocean for a failure yet to come. Anyone else remember something like that? If you could find that it would support the notion that the entire IDEA of the Seanchan is Ishamael's.
5
jason wolfbrother: 2003-01-31
I don't think the Empress herself is a darkfriend. I think she is under of the influence of Semirhage who takes her orders from Ishamael/Moridin. Compulsion has been shown to work on royalty so why should the Empress be any different. I haven't seen any evidence that the Seanchan have a higher proportion of darkfriends in their population than any other country we have encountered. We have seen darkfriends from every nation. I do agree that Ishamael had a hand in the creation of the Seanchan Empire but if they were all darkfriends they wouldn't have been fighting down rebellions for a thousand years.
6
jason wolfbrother: 2003-02-01
Galadriel here is the quote you were referring to: "I whispered in Artur Hawkwing's ear, and the length and breadth of the land Aes Sedai died. I whispered again, and the High King sent his armies across the Aryth Ocean, across the World Sea, and sealed two dooms. The doom of his dream of one land and one people, and a doom yet to come."
7
WinespringBrother: 2003-02-01
Whether they are run by darkfriends or not, I think they had a big darkfriend problem in the past. Does the phrase "armies of the night" ring a bell? Deian, the Aes Sedai who gave Luthair the first a'dam, was mentioned in TSR to be a member of said armies, who presumably were Ishamael's followers in Seanchan, and were conquered by Luthair's armies according to TSR.
8
Dedicated: 2003-02-01
In response to Callandor, I don't think the entire Seanchan empire is run totally by darkfriends, it's just that the empire was founded by darkfriends and Forsaken. I know all Seanchan aren't evil. Also, Tuon may have been leading the "Return" privately, but publicly it is Suroth as Tuon was still "under the veil" whatever that means. Oh yeah Galadriel, I beleive that passage you are referring to is in TGH towards the end, but don't quote me on it.
9
Captain Cauthon: 2003-02-02
The Armies of Night weren't composed of Darkfriends. They were just a bunch of separate groups run by female channelers who were only looking out for themselves that the Seanchan conquered in the Consolidation. I think that while Ishy may have gotten the Seanchan thing going by getting Hawkwing to send his armies there that they don't have any more Darkfriends than anyone else. I believe it's mentioned in the books that they treat Darkfriends with extreme prejudice when they're discovered over there. Also, when Egwene took her Accepted test, one of her visions was of a Last Battle where the invading Trolloc hordes were being challenged by the might of all the lands united by the Seanchan. Remember too that Suroth wasn't in charge of the Return at first either, as it was High Lord Turak...until Rand cut him down. It seems more likely that the Empress was probably influenced by her "special advisor" into putting a Darkfriend in such a high post, but even the special advisor couldn't score her the top job without openly flaunting whatever rules the Seanchan have for such things.
I think that from all of this that it's clear that the Seanchan aren't Darkfriends, or even evil per se for that matter, although they may be getting nudged towards actions here or there that happen to benefit the DO.
10
Callandor: 2003-02-02
I didnt say that the Seanchan were ENTIRELY made up of Darkfriends. I said that Darkfriends can be anywhere. We have quite a few accounts of Seanchan actually being good people.
About my sidenote it was the Grolm. Still gotta find that quote though.
11
Dedicated: 2003-02-02
Just to clear the air one last time, I never said that all Seanchan are darkfriends. I know they fight the Dark One just like everyone else. I think Rand will destroy Suroth and at least part of the Seanchan (probably a faction that will follow Tuon) will follow Rand and help him win the LB (thus turning Ishy's plot on its head) My simple credo is that the Seanchan were a plan of Ishamael's to counteract humanity being united under Rand for the last battle. What else could that line about Hawkwing "sending his only son across the Aryth Ocean for a wrong yet to come" mean besides that the Seanchan were Ishy's invention all along. Reiterating my point, I DO NOT THINK ALL SEANCHAN ARE DARKFRIENDS! They were yet another plot by Ishy to thwart Rand. That's all folks.
12
Anubis: 2003-02-04
The seanchan aren't darkfriends imho but there are problems with them that will scres. for one, they kill male channelers, so right off the bat you have significantly less channelers, second, more the half, more then 2/3s of the female channelers are useless, they dont even know they can learn to channel. third, there is no learning about channeling in any other then a military nature. cuendillar and angrael will be necessary in defeating the do. the seanchan armies may win against the trollocs, but they would be ripped apart by the nastier shadowspawn, and would be pawns for the forsaken the way their society is structured. any cumpulsion using fiend would quickly be able to wreak havoc, and remember fains comments and how he notices a severe lack of trust in the seanchan empire? if the seanchan take control, the dark one will EAT them alive and the world as well.
13
Callandor: 2003-02-05
I think that Fain was refering to the whole suldam and damane issue.
But none the less I agree. If the Seanchan get control, they will be easy pickins right now.
No wonder Semirhage has had such an easy time :-P.
14
Theron: 2003-02-12
Hmmm... The seanchan. Let us examine what we know for sure about the seanchan with regards to this theory.
1) The seanchan seek to take over and cotrol this sid eof the aryth ocean.
2) The Seanchan have been infulenced by Ishy in the past and my be influenced by Semirhage today.
3) The seanchan seem to be better rulers than those on this side of Aryth, and have an incredibly complex, organized, and effective army.
4) The seanchan have (or had) a major problem with darkfriends in the past. weather or not they still do is circumspect, but the seekers seem to do an effective jop rooting them out.
5)Female channelers are chained and used in the army, and male channelers are executed. this is similar to the eastern side of the ocean in regards to male channelers. Females are either killed (if the whitecloaks ever find them) or are "chained" to the white tower.
6) The Seanchan society is very complex and competitive. They play the game of thrones to a degree that the Aes Sedai would envy, and are very ruthless in it's pursuit.
15
Theron: 2003-02-12
Conclusions:
1)All this evidence points to the Seanchan being manipulated by the forsaken, probebly as a counter-measure created by Ishy to prevent Rand from uniting the nations for the Last Battle. Suroth is certianly a Dark Friend, but that does not mean that every Seanchan is one.
2)Now the seanchan Armies are tough, but they would not be able to win the last battle with out Rand. We know this because Rand was able to experience one of his mirror lives in which the seanchan make the attempt (I believe that this is during the second book).
3)The Seanchan need to be brought to heel for them to be a truly effective member for the last battle. Possibly Rand could incorperate them into his nations or arrange a cease-fire or treaty with them.
16
Dedicated: 2003-02-13
I think that a faction of the Seanchan will follow Rand (probably those who follow Tuon after marrying Mat). I don't think the Seanchan empire on the whole will come to Rand. Sure, they believe that the DR has to be at the last battle like everyone else, but I just don't see hardcore Seanchan following a man who can channel (hell, the kill men who can channel in Seanchan).
I do agree that at least some part of the mighty Seanchan army will be there to help Rand at the LB. Egwene even has one of her dreams, in which the trolloc hordes are confronted and driven back by the might of the Seanchan.
17
Callandor: 2003-02-13
Well, in my mind, Rand will turn the Seanchan on its head by giving the DEEPEST SECRET IN THE SEANCHAN WORLD AWAY!!!... suldam can learn to channel.
Rand did it with the Aiel and look how many followed him? Only one faction broke off: The Shaido. Now, one of Rands Ashaman with bonded Aes Sedai(maybe Logain) well figure out that the suldam can learn to channel. Then Logain is told, Logain tells Rand, and Rand tells all.
Would be neat for that to happen.
18
Dedicated: 2003-02-13
That bit Callandor just wrote is exactly what I was thinking the other day. Maybe the Seanchan will be brought to their knees if Rand reveals their secret (which is most certainly the key to their military might). I was thinking maybe the Seanchan divide over the secret, with some following Rand and maybe a faction opposing Rand led by Seminath and Suroth.
19
Elder Haman: 2003-03-05
You know, I'm surprised that no one has discussed the obvious connection between Berelain and the Seachan. I think it will be very interesting when Berelain Hawkwing meets Toun Hawkwing.
20
myste: 2003-03-08
The Empress (may she live forever) did NOT send Suroth to lead the Return, she sent Turak. Suroth took it upon herself to lead the return after Turak died at Falme, rather than bringing the armies back in defeat.
"How long she would manage to keep Sea Folk elsewhere - and the accursed mainlanders - from learning that she held these islands, Suroth did not know. It will be long enough, she told herself. It must be long enough.
She had worked something of a miracle in rallying most of the Seanchan forces after the debacle the High Lord Turak had led them to. All but a handful of the vessels that had escaped from Falme lay under her control, and no one questioned her right to command the Hailene, the Forerunners. If her miracle held, no one on the mainland suspected they were here. Waiting to take back the lands the Empress had sent them to reclaim, waiting to achieve the Corenne, the Return. Her agents already scouted the way. There would be no need to return to the Court of the Nine Moons and apologize to the Empress for a failure not even hers."
--TSR, chapter 1
