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he Pattern

by Flinn Sedai: 2004-04-21 | Not yet rated

Previous Categories: The Nature of the Bore

This might be a little but long and might seem unlikely, but stick with me. I'm going to start by stating some obvious things that we all know are true.

The Wheel of Time, is a seven spoked loom. Each spoke represents one Age, that lasts an indeterminate amount of time. This loom spins what is known as the Pattern. The Pattern is woven of human lives and events. The Wheel itself is time.

Throughout all of the turnings of the Wheel, there are 3 constants that people know of. The Creator, who created the Wheel and then for all practical purposes left it to fend for itself. The Dark One, who was sealed away by the Creator at the moment of Creation to keep him from touching the world. And Tel'aran'rhiod, which is a place that holds those bound to the Horn of Valere, and is only able to be touched by those who have the Talent known as Dreaming or Dreamwalking, or by those who possess certain Ter'angreal.

The Wheel is run by two Powers. Saidar, and Saidin. They work opposing and together to drive the Wheel of Time for time without end. These powers are able to be used by a certain amount of the population. Saidar, is the female half of the Power. Only females are able to touch Saidar, and very few females are.

Saidin, is the male half of the Power. It is only able to be used by a small percentage of the male population and only by males (exception Aran'gar). The greatest things that were ever done with Saidin and Saidar was when they were used together using a method called linking which was only able to be initiated by a female.

The Age of Legends was one Age of the Pattern. It is the Age preceeding the current Age. The Age of Legends was ended by a cataclysmic event known as the Breaking. During the Breaking, mountains were demolished, oceans dried up and were replace by new oceans. The face of the world was changed forever. I am beginning to digress.

The Breaking was caused by the Dark One's counterstroke to being resealed. The Dark One was resealed by a man named Lews Therin Telamon, known as the Dragon, and his hundred male companions weilding Saidin. During the Age of Legends, his evil had spread across the land, corrupting the high and the low alike.

Prior to this, there had been no such thing as war. They lived in a utopian society of mutual cooperation. However, in their search for a new Power that could be used by both males and females, they found what is described as a "thinness" in the Pattern over the Sharom, which is present day Shayol Ghul. In an effort to make this Power accessable, they bored into the Pattern, creating what is known as the Bore.

The Bore was created by a team of researchers at the Collam Daan. Some members of this group were Mierin, Lanfear, and Beidomon "assisting her". Behind this Bore lay the Dark One.



bore1 ( P )

(bôr, br)

v. bored, bor·ing, bores

v. tr.

1. To make a hole in or through, with or as if with a drill.

2. To form (a tunnel, for example) by drilling, digging, or burrowing.

Now im going to start explaining what all of this is leading to.

If there was a thinness in the Pattern over any plot of land, then that means that the Pattern must overlay the world. Since the Pattern is showing time, then every particular time or event is a specific point not only on the Pattern, but on the world. So that means that there is not only a thinness in the Pattern, but in time itself. Some particular point in time that is thin, where a few key threads hold it together or let it fall apart.

That also means, that the Bore, which was drilled through the Pattern, also drilled through time.

My theory is that the particular event that is at Shayol Ghul is the Last Battle. It his held together by fewer threads than any other part of the Pattern. This also leads me to believe, that at Tarmon Gai'don, the Dark One will be resealed properly.

If the Dark One is bound at a certain time, at a certain place, by certain people, threads, then at Tarmon Gai'don, in Shayol Ghul, the Dark One will either be resealed by Rand and the few other threads, or the Dark One will break free because at the point that he must be resealed, nobody is there to do it.

I know this sounds like a kind of crackpot idea, but i like it, so massacre it.
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Comments

1

Tamyrlin: 2004-07-09

(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
Nitpicks first: 1) anyone can access Tel'aran'rhiod. People can unconsciously (pun intended) touch t'a'r with their dreams. That's how people die in their sleep. 2) The thinness wasn't at the Sharom, it was at Shayol Ghul. The drilling of the Bore made such a mess that the Sharom at the Collam Daan shattered. Analogous to an earthquake in Loma Prieta knocking down a section of the San Francisco Bay Bridge: the Bridge is a good 70 miles from the epicenter.

Tamyrlin and Firseal have been having an on-again-off-again debate on the nature of the Pattern for four years now, if not longer. Chat with them if you want to get really esoteric.
I am of the opinion that the Pattern isn't overlaying the world, the Pattern IS the world. Everything that exists, reality itself, is the Pattern. the Dark One is sealed away from the Pattern, and the 'thinness' is where the Pattern is strained to keep the DO out. The big problem is Pattern, Wheel, Thinness, et al are three-dimensional analogies to four, five, ten-thousand dimensional concepts. They're all we have to try and understand the cosmology of the WoT universe. And since they're only analogies, they are imperfect and can't completely or accurately describe the entirety that is existance.
(for future reference, you may want to skip the exhaustive retelling of the history of the world before you get to your theory. the theory part is less than a quarter of your entire post, and it gets lost. Just a style point: tie your theory into the quotes/information, don't tack your theory onto the end of a dissertation)

2

Callandor: 2004-07-09

**The Wheel of Time, is a seven spoked loom. Each spoke represents one Age, that lasts an indeterminate amount of time. This loom spins what is known as the Pattern. The Pattern is woven of human lives and events. The Wheel itself is time.**

The Wheel weaves the threads of the Pattern, which are the combinations of a soul and a body of a person. It does not weave the Pattern.

The Pattern is a drawn out plan for the Age; hence, Patter of the Age. The Pattern in essence is the course of events woven from all the threads woven by the Wheel for the Age, and the actions of those threads through their lives. It weaves toward a goal at the end of the Age, then another Pattern picks up for that Age, and so on.

**And Tel'aran'rhiod, which is a place that holds those bound to the Horn of Valere, and is only able to be touched by those who have the Talent known as Dreaming or Dreamwalking, or by those who possess certain Ter'angreal.**

Anyone who can sleep deep enough can enter Tel'aran'rhiod briefly.

3

: 2004-07-10

Nitpicks first:

1: Why is everyone so certain that the Wheel has 7 spokes? Is there a quote from the books or RJ? I always thought the 7 spokes came from artistic licence.

2: Callador- I'm pretty sure that the Wheel does weave the pattern, and I thought what you refer to as "the pattern of an Age" was called the "Age Lace," and it's all part of one pattern.

More important discussion:

I don't think it is necessary to say the Pattern overlays the world- lets just say the Pattern is the World. However I absolutly agree with your analysis that the Pattern is made up of not only specific points, but also specific times- as well as all sorts of other elements such as people and their activities- and that the thinness in the Pattern is not only at a specific point but also at a point in time. This may explain both the Dark One's seeming vagueness about time, and why strnge things can be done at Shayol Ghul (The Pattern can be bent there do to the Pattern's thinness). If Shayol Ghul is present at all points in time, (do to the PAttern's thinness), then the Dark One would be correct in saying that his freedom will come soon, in this Age or another.

I also accept (with cavats) the idea the Dark One's can be resealed only if at a certain time and a certain place, specific people take specifec actions. These events are likely spread out over time and place which then culmanate in the Last Battle. (Rather than only the Last Battle being necessary). These events are likely spelled out in the Prophecies. However, I reject the idea that Dark One will break free if nobody does anything, I believe freeing the Dark One also requires specific people to do certain thing at certain times, in specific places. Hence the constant attempts to control Rand (the Dragon). These events are likely spelled out in the Dark Prophecies.

This is an analogy to help you understand what I'm visualizing: In the books- time is depicted as a circle, with events just repeating themselves, and we are moving only a small distance around the diameter with every Age. Yet it doesn't quite seem to fit with the fact that Ishmael talks about the endless variations of his (previous) battles with the Dragon. What if time could be described as a oscilating helix? Looking down the "barrel," the helix would appear to be a circle with events continualy repeating themselves (with minor variations). However, if you pull back and look at the helix from the side, you can tell that the minor variations actually correspond to the oscilations of the helix between two poles. At one pole is Creator's goal- The Dark One is solildly imprisioned, peace has existed for so long that everyone has forgotten war, prosperity abounds. As you move away from the Creator's Pole things change, conflicts arise, poverty abounds and wars spread- as the Dark One gains more and more influence over the Pattern, until at the pole oppossing The Creator, The Dark One Breaks free and imprisions the Creator. Then the whole world is nothing more than Dante's Inferno.

I further theorize that the oscilation is usually stable, (that typically the helix is a cirlce), but that the contending forces of the Creator and the Dark One are what move the helix between the two poles. Furthermore, there are likely key events, places, times, and people that can effect which pole the helix moves towards. Thus there arelikely to be periods when "nothing happens" and other periods when great changes take place. These periods of great change are part of the conflict between good and evil, during which each is jocking for position. The Creator uses the Pattern to spin out ta'varen, and form Webs that try to force the Pattern back towards his pole, while the Dark One attempts to corrupt the Pattern to his ends.

Obviously the Pattern has been slowly moving towards the Dark One's pole for some time. Rand's birth heralded a time when the Greatest of all changes could occur- either the Dark One could break free completely, or the inertia of the Pattern will be changed to move once more towards the Creator's pole. This explains why the Dark One usually aviods killing Rand, but twice does attempt to kill him. If the Dark One can either corrupt Rand, and force him into a trap the Dark One can break free. However, there are certain gains that the Dark One has made in previous battles (other Ages) that he does not wish to relinquish (prefering to maintain his advantage and bide his time till the next battle when he can try to break free again). What were the two times he attempts to kill Rand? When Rand took Callandor, and when Rand cleansed saidin. I have thought that this might fit with my Guaire Amasalan theory- answering the question of what happens when parts of prophecies aren't fullfilled. Maybe I should submit this helix idea as it's own theory.

4

mako0424: 2004-07-10

ok, using what you and Verin Sedai said, ok there are three constants, Good/Creator, Evil/Dark One, and T'A'R'. Well this thiness in the pattern where it was drilled allows Dark One greater access to World, well i agree, i think this thinness is both metaphorically representative of time and the Age itself. I think Lanfear and Beidomen (both strong Dreamwalkers, right?) bored the hole through T'A'R'. they were trying to access the True Power for men and women, which i am of the belief that the TRue Power is a perfectly dangerous blend of saidar and saidin, this is the true force that drives the Wheel of Time, saidar and saidin are just the gender differentiations. I would almost rather use an analgoy of a water wheel spinning, the turning of the wheel represents Time, something vague and indistinct (abstract) where as the wheel itself is physical reality like people, world, and events, and the water is true source, both saidar and saidin. parts of the wheel (certain people who can channel) can harness some of this endless water for themselves.

I also am of the opinion that T'A'R is the shadow of the wheel if that makes sense, something that is there, but has no mass. and its through the shadow that Lanfear tried to access The water, and instead created a tunnel though time to reach wheel wherever the Dark One chooses.

I think the Bore can only be resealed in T'A'R'

5

wattj69: 2004-07-10

well, first, I have to agree that the pattern doesn't OVERLAY anything, but is rather the entirety of existence. rather then being over the world, it is the world, and all other possible worlds, and everything in those worlds. one of the precepts of the entire series is that people are threads in this pattern. that couldn't be true if the pattern overlayed the world, it's only true if the world and all of it's people are part of the pattern. O, and just a private little nitpick: nowhere in the books does it say the hundred companions were all male. I think it much more likely that it was about 50-50 male and female. isn't the maximum link 101 or something like that? think about 101 linked channelers, the most powerful of all the channelers serving the light, with LLT controlling the flows...nothing could match that. that way, if Rand ends up bringing back the companions for the last battle, he will have to have peace between all the channeling forces, because male channelers alone won't do it, he will have to untie everyone to achieve that ultimate power.

6

Callandor: 2004-07-10

**2: Callador- I'm pretty sure that the Wheel does weave the pattern, and I thought what you refer to as "the pattern of an Age" was called the "Age Lace," and it's all part of one pattern.**

No.

**BWB: page 13 - 16

CHAPTER: 1 - The Wheel and the Pattern

"The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and go, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again." So begins each saga within the World of the Wheel, a universe in which the major controlling factor is the Wheel of Time and the Great Pattern in spins. A pattern in which light and dark, good and evil, male and female, and life and death struggle for balance within the weave of destiny.

What is the Wheel of Time? Imagine a great cosmic loom in the shape of a seven-spoked wheel, slowly spinning through eternity, weaving the fabric of the universe. *The Wheel, put in place by the Creator, is time itself, ever turning and returning. The fabric it weaves is constructed from the threads of lives and events, interlaced into a design, the Great Pattern, which is the whole of existence and reality, past, present, and future.*(5)

Within the influence of this Lace of Ages are not only the earth and stone of the physical world, but other worlds and universes, other dimensions, other possibilities. The Wheel touches what might be, what might have been, and what is. It touches the world of dreams as well as the world of waking.

*In this world there is no one beginning or one end, for each spoke of the great Wheel represents one of the seven Ages, receding into the past and returning in the future as the Wheel spins, the fabric of each age changing only its weave and pattern with each passing.*(1) With every pass the changes vary to an increasingly greater degree. *For each Age there is a separate and unique pattern, the Pattern of the Age, which forms the substance of reality for that age.*(2) *The design is predetermined by the Wheel and can only partially be changed by those lives which make up the threads within the weave.*(3)

No one knows the length of time it takes for a full turning of the Wheel, nor is there a set time for each Age. There is only the certainty that all will come around again, though surely long past the span encompassed by human memory, or even legend. Yet that knowledge provides the basis for the philosophy and history of the known world. No ending, even death, is necessarily final within the turning of the Wheel. Reincarnation is a part of the way of the world. Prophecies are believed and heeded, since they tell as much of what was as of what will be. The only questions are when and in what manner the prophecies will unfold.

In such a world change is simply a predetermined part of the mechanism. *Only a few individuals, special souls known as [i]ta'veren[/i], can cause the fabric of the pattern to bend around them, changing the weave.*(4) These [i]ta'veren[/i] are spun out as key threads around which all surrounding life-threads, perhaps in some cases all life-threads, weave to create change. These key threads often produce major variations in the Pattern of an Age. Such major changes are called, in the old tongue, [i]ta'maral'ailen[/i], or the "Web of Destiny."

*Even the [i]ta'veren[/i] and the Web of Destiny woven around them are bound by the Wheel and the Great Pattern; it is believed that the Wheel spins out [i]ta'veren[/i] whenever the weave begins to drift away from the Pattern.* (6) The changes around them, while often drastic and unsettling for those who must live in the Age, are thought to be part of the Wheel's own correcting mechanism. The more change needed to bring the Great Pattern into balance, the more [i]ta'veren[/i] spun out into the world.

The Great Wheel is the very heart of all time. But even the Wheel requires energy to maintain itself, and its pattern. This energy comes from the True Source, from which the One Power may be drawn. Both the True Source and the One Power are made up of two conflicting yet complementary parts: [i]saidin[/i], the male half, and [i]saidar[/i], the female half. Working both together and against one another within the True Source, it is [i]saidin[/i] and [i]saidar[/i] which provide the driving force that turns the Wheel of Time.

The only known forces outside the Wheel and the Pattern are the Creator, who shaped the Wheel, the One Power that drives it--as well as the plan for the Great Pattern--and the Dark One, who was imprisoned outside the pattern by the Creator at the moment of creation. *No one inside and of the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern. Even those who are [i]ta'veren[/i] can only alter, but not completely change, the weave.*(7) It is believed that if he escapes his prison, the Dark One, being a creature or force beyond creation, has the ability to remake the Wheel and all of creation in his own dark image. Thus each person, especially each of those born [i]ta'veren[/i], must struggle to achieve his or her own best destiny to assure the balance and continuation of the Great Pattern.**

1. Yes, there are seven Ages. It is not poetic license (well, it is, but the world is defined as seven Ages).

2. Each Age has a seperate Pattern which defines the reality of the Age. Basically, it really want to simplify it down, every Age there is a goal, and the Pattern makes sure that goal is met (quite simplified, eh?).

3. The Wheel sets the goals for the Pattern.

4. Ta'veren warp the Pattern; not the Wheel.

5. (Jumped around a bit, sorry) This is the hard part to think of. You have to think of the Wheel and the Pattern as two seperate "objects", but linked together.

An example is an ocean and a river. The ocean, is the Wheel, a great body of water (the threads the Wheel weaves). The river is the set design of those threads to the end point, the "goal". So where's the Pattern? It is the narrowing point where the river seperates from the ocean.

All the Wheel does, is make threads and set the goals of the future Ages. The Pattern then takes over, taking the threads the Wheel creates, and weaves the lives of the people toward those goals for the Age.

6. Real proof of this. Human behavior, because choice still exists within the Wheel of Time (even to a small degree, it builds up), and those choices begin to set courses drifting from the set Pattern. The Wheel then weaves the release of corrective mechanisms, the Heroes of the Horn (ta'veren), to re-align everthing to the Pattern.

7. More proof. Anybody born by the Wheel, and woven into the Pattern, cannot destroy the Wheel of Time. What the heck does that mean? Basically, only the Dark One, or the Creator, can destroy the Wheel or change it. Main distinction, is that the quote seperates the Pattern from the Wheel.

7

Zader: 2004-07-11

In the WOT series I believe time is both cyclic and linear. Eg 3D instead of 2D To explain my theory I would liken Time to a wheel (self explanatory), but also something similar to a cork screw. As the Wheel moves round(cyclic) it also goes down (Linear). This would explain why certain critical events keep happening, though not exactly the same. As the wheel turns round(cyclic), critical events inside the wheel happen again, but the Wheel has also moved down(linear) and is no longer in the same position, this leads to changes happening in critical events. I think the best example of this, is the relationship between , the time of Aemon, and current events. From the little we know of events from Aemon's time, Thorin was King of Manetheren, Caar his son (possibly 1st Prince) was sent to Aridhol, imprisoned and escaped, went to the B/Lands (why go to the B/Lands and not back to Manetheren), married Rhea, she killed him, then herself. In a lot of ways these events in themselves could be Prophecy. If we go over some of the events that have happened in Randland, there are some parallels. Manetheren as a comparison to Andor, Caar to Luc, Also Caar to Lain Mandragoran, Breyan to Rhea. Eldrene to Elayne, Rand to Aemon. These events are not the same, but they are similar. Luc the first prince goes to the blight, Caar goes to the B/Land (we are not told where, but possible to Malkier, region) Caar, father of Aemon, Luc, uncle of Rand. Aemon married to Eldrene, Queen of Manetheren. Elayne vying to be Queen of Andor( bonded and willing to marry Rand.) Caar killed by Rhea, then Rhea kills herself. Lain Mandragoran, betrayed by Breyan, then Breyan riding to the Blight. This may also be part of the reason Luc/Isam combo.(two parts of past combined to make one, ie Caar to Luc/ Caar to Lain Mandragoran Slayer Luc/Isam, son of Lain ) Eldrene betrayed by a Red Amyrlin, could this be Elayne/Aliada.

8

Brendan Reborn: 2004-07-11

**O, and just a private little nitpick: nowhere in the books does it say the hundred companions were all male. I think it much more likely that it was about 50-50 male and female. isn't the maximum link 101 or something like that? think about 101 linked channelers, the most powerful of all the channelers serving the light, with LLT controlling the flows...nothing could match that. that way, if Rand ends up bringing back the companions for the last battle, he will have to have peace between all the channeling forces, because male channelers alone won't do it, he will have to untie everyone to achieve that ultimate power. **

Ummm, it was all male channelers.

Lews Therin came up with the plan to strike at shayol ghul, but the women thought it too dangerous and rash. Latra Posae Decume proposed a second plan in which she came in agreement with all female aes sedai, known as the "fatefull Concord".

"Lew's Therin's Plan was too rash, too dangerous, and no woman would take part in it." pg. 46, BWB: C. 4 Fall into the Shadow

And to top it all off, it wasn't 100. It was 113 male aes sedai with around 10,000 soldiers that carried out Lews Therin's plan.

9

Elder Haman: 2004-07-11

Actually, it is clear that the hundred companions were all male. The women all joined the "Fateful Accord" refusing to follow Lews Therin's plan- only the men would follow him- hence only saidin was tainted.

10

Callandor: 2004-07-11

**O, and just a private little nitpick: nowhere in the books does it say the hundred companions were all male.**

No, the Hundred Companions numbered 113, led by Lews Therin, and were all male channelers. If women would've taken part in the Sealing of the Bore, saidar would've been tainted as well as saidin.

11

Davian93: 2004-07-12

****O, and just a private little nitpick: nowhere in the books does it say the hundred companions were all male. I think it much more likely that it was about 50-50 male and female. isn't the maximum link 101 or something like that? think about 101 linked channelers, the most powerful of all the channelers serving the light, with LLT controlling the flows...nothing could match that.****

First of all, Read the Strike at Shayol Ghul but for now...

"A group of powerful young male Aes Sedai, vocal in their arguements (apparently to the point of several times disrupting meetings of the Hall), had formed in support of Lews Therin during the struggle with Latra Posae, a group popularly called the Hundred Companions, though in actuality they numbered one hundred and thirteen at this point."

The Strike was composed of 113 male AS and 10,000 soldiers. Probably 7 of them actually set the seals in place while the other 106 AS ran interference with the soldiers.

On another note, maximum male/female link is 72, I believe, with 37 females and 35 males. The male female thing might be reversed, I can never remember that.

12

ilgross: 2004-07-12

The guide says the 100 Companions were all male, as all the chicks signed the fateful accord, saying they wouldn't do it.

The maximum link is 72 channelers.

13

Elder Haman: 2004-07-12

Hmm... I do not know what went wrong with the posting, but the above post about time being a helix is from me.

14

Elder Haman: 2004-07-12

Umm.. Zader, that is pretty much what I was saying in my first post up near the top of this theory. Although "corkscrew" inaccuratly represents the idea- the proper term is helix- or some use the word "slinky" to describe it.

15

dragonsceptor: 2004-07-15

Elder Haman, I like your idea of the helix. I think that is a good description. I don't have anything to add...you did well enough w/out any help.

16

Flinn Sedai: 2004-07-15

**The Strike was composed of 113 male AS and 10,000 soldiers. Probably 7 of them actually set the seals in place while the other 106 AS ran interference with the soldiers. **

The 10,000 soldiers probably ran interference by themselves. It required a lot of Saidin to reseal the Bore. Saidin can be woven together if the weilders have a lot of practice. It must be extremely precise, but it can be done. For an example of this, refer to the sheild created by the Asha'man at Dumai Wells.

17

dragonsceptor: 2004-07-16

wasn't the shield lots of little shields pieced together? IIRC, they were working together but they were not linked...please correct me if I am wrong.

18

Davian93: 2004-07-16

****Saidin can be woven together if the weilders have a lot of practice. It must be extremely precise, but it can be done. For an example of this, refer to the sheild created by the Asha'man at Dumai Wells. ****

Those were all separate shields and separate weaves placed next to each other. I dont think that would work with Bore on a permanent basis. The Seven Seals are each the focal point of an individual weave sealing the DO's prison. So it took 7 individual weaves (seals) to seal the DO's prison.

19

Callandor: 2004-07-16

**wasn't the shield lots of little shields pieced together? IIRC, they were working together but they were not linked...please correct me if I am wrong.**

Yes, they were smaller domes.

**TITLE: Lord of Chaos

CHAPTER: 55 - Dumai's Wells

"As you wish," the hawk-nosed man said wryly. "I have the campsite secured, I believe." That seemed true enough. Bodies littered the ground, but in only a few places did men still fight inside the ring of wagons. *A dome of Air suddenly covered the entire camp, smoke from the fires sliding up to a hole left in the top. It was not one solid weave of saidin; Rand could see where individual weaves butted one against another to make it.* He thought there might have been as many as two hundred black-coated men beneath the dome. A hail of lightning and fire struck that barrier and exploded harmlessly. The sky itself seemed to crackle and burn; the constant roar of it filled the air. Maidens with strips of red dangling from their arms and siswai'aman stood along the wall they could not see, mingled with Mayeners and Cairhienin, many of them afoot as well. On the other side, a solid mass of Shaido stared at the invisible barricade keeping them from their enemies, sometimes stabbing at it with spears or hurling themselves against it bodily. Spears stopped short, and bodies bounced back.**

20

Anubis: 2004-07-16

or perhaps callandor neither would have been, they might have clean eachother properties like rand used at Shadar Lagoth

21

Flinn Sedai: 2004-07-17

The sheild was little peices of a big sheild put together.

22

Callandor: 2004-07-18

**or perhaps callandor neither would have been, they might have clean eachother properties like rand used at Shadar Lagoth**

If you mean women in the Sealing of the Bore, you're wrong. RJ specifically said in the Budapest interviews, #10, which are availible at Dragonmount for you to listen to and hear him say so.

If not that, then I'm not usre what you're talking about ;)