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Home | Index | Archives | Help
at is Aemon reborn
by Guaire Amalasan: 2004-03-30 | 5 out of 10 (2 votes)
Previous Categories: Mat's Memories
Well on to why Mat is Aemon.
1) During Moraine's tale of Aemon in tEotW she tells of Manetheren's fall and Aemon's death, at Emond's field. Now I'm trying to say is that is easier for someone to be reborn if the body they are reborn in is born at the place of their previous life's death a la LTT to Rand at Dragonmount.
2) Min's first viewing of Mat includes a red eagle which if Mat is Aemon he would definitely have.
3) Next is Mat's first spouting of the old tongue. While Rand and Perrin use the war cry of "Manetheren" Mat screams "Carai an Caldazar! Carai an Ellisande! Al Ellisande!" (Pg 265 ppb, tEotW, The Caemlyn Road) later Moraine explains that Mat's war cry means "for the honor of the red eagle! For the honor of the rose of the sun! For the rose of the sun!" She continues to explain saying that this was the war cry of Manetheren namely its last king, Aemon.
4) The three Ta' veren say (in Shadows Waiting, pg 287 ppb, tEotW) that Mat may be Aemon reborn and then Thom interrupts them then tells them that the dead can be reborn or that they could take a living persons body. This could just be preparation for Rand being LTT reborn but I think it's more than that.
5) Later in tEotW (The Dark One Stirs, PG 736 ppb) Mat adds more to his war cry. He adds "Mordero daghain pas duente cuebiyar!" This means death holds not fear within my heart! This shows that wherever Mat got his old tongue from he knew he was going to die and was not afraid of it.
Okay enough from tEotW not to switch gears to tDR
6) During the healing Mat shouts "Mia ayende Aes Sedai! Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misian ye! Mia ayende" (Healing, pg 212 ppb, tDR) which Suian translates that "I am free man, Aes Sedai, I am no Aes Sedai meat". Suian says before translates that she states that she thinks for a moment past and present were one.
Mat would have had the same soul in both times otherwise there would never been the slip to the past.
This makes mat someone who was at the last battle of Manetheren, knows the old tongue fluently and freely uses Aemon's war cry as if it were his own. I believe that this points to the King himself and not to some unnamed general.
7) Finally is Mat's first ancient memory. He clearly remembers the final battle of Manetheren, where he commanded the heart guard, what I assume to be Manetheren's elitist soldiers. So he would have had to be of extremely high rank in order to lead them. Mat remembers giving orders and making decisions during this battle which even a high ranking general would not do if the warder/king was on the battlefield.
Lastly I must address the point that if Mat is Aemon and Aemon was a warder how come Mat dislikes Aes Sedai so. Well there are two reasons for this, (Healing, pg 214 ppb, tDR) Suian states, “Who can know the heart of a man? Not even he himself, I suspect. A man is the easiest animal to put on a leash and the hardest to keep leashed, even if he chooses it himself.” So answer one is maybe even though he was a warder Aemon wasn't too fond of Aes Sedai himself. Answer two is a question: if your kingdom was destroyed and you, your wife and several thousands of people were killed because Aes Sedai betrayed you wouldn't you hate the Aes Sedai for it?
Wow that got long fast. To wrap it up shortly I believe that Mat is Aemon and it will take a lot to convince me otherwise. Oops forgot to mention Tuon channeling and Mat marrying her and possibly becoming her warder. But that's a theory for another time.
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2004-04-27
(from Frenzy)
despite Thom's comments in Shadar Logoth, Rand is the only confirmed example we have of a particular person being reborn. Which makes it hard to confirm or deny that anyone else is also someone specific reborn.
and Tar Valon didn't betray Manetheren, the Ten Nations did by abandoning it to the Shadow. So i doubt Aemon hated Aes Sedai. Mat's distrust of Aes Sedai is probably his own. Many of Mat's memories are of men who fought against Hawkwing, and Hawkwing was the one who hated Aes Sedai. But that's 1000 years after Aemon.
"By the Light and my hope of Salvation and rebirth" is the common oath in the world. i seriously doubt that only heroes tied to the Horn are reborn.
Grane: 2004-04-27
There are some possible indications here that Mat and Aemon could be the same person. I think though that Mat is completely his own character who was gifted memories from the 'Finns and military tactics. His luck is his own (not given from some ter'angreal or other). I would say Mat and Perrin are just strong blooded descendants of Manetheren which Moirane comments on, and they just happen to be ta'veren also. Back to my original point, maybe other people can be other people reborn but Mat is his own unique character I believe.
charliec: 2004-04-27
As an incidental: I don't think they're tied to the horn itself )it is an artifact, and must have been made at some point, and no doubt could be destroyed), rather the horn can call them via their special status wrt the wheel.
However there is no evidence that I know of for a middle tier between teh heroes and normal people, so I don't think Aemon had a particularly special role.
**He adds "Mordero daghain pas duente cuebiyar!" This means death holds not fear within my heart! This shows that wherever Mat got his old tongue from he knew he was going to die and was not afraid of it.**
Plenty of people would say they didn't fear death as part of a battle cry, and just because he knows he will die doesn't make him Aemon, EVERYONE knows they'll die, only more so when charging into battle...
**The three Ta' veren say (in Shadows Waiting, pg 287 ppb, tEotW) that Mat may be Aemon reborn and then Thom interrupts them then tells them that the dead can be reborn or that they could take a living persons body. This could just be preparation for Rand being LTT reborn but I think it's more than that**
It is more than that... Thom is talking about something more sinister than rebirth (hence it is not a joking matter), I feel this is more of a foreshadowing of the danger posed by Mordeth... and his achievement in entering Fain (even if he did find more than he bargained for there)
**This makes mat someone who was at the last battle of Manetheren, knows the old tongue fluently and freely uses Aemon's war cry as if it were his own. I believe that this points to the King himself and not to some unnamed general** The problem is that generals in the army could well use Aemon's war cry as their own, and would of course use the old tongue fluently.
Some other objections:
Mat's memories come from a wide range of times spread liberally over a thousand years or two... souls just don't seem to be reborn that frequently.
Mat's memories ALL come from generals and great military minds... none clearly from a ruler (and others clearly NOT from rulers, including at least one from manetheren before Aemon's time). Mat's character is simply not a king-type, and despite being a warder we've no indication that Aemon was a great general.
Moiraine is careful to explain in tEotW that the resurfacing of the old tongue is because the 'old blood' runs strong in them, even the other two rivers folk comment that they feel they should half understand it. An explanation is given here which deliberately avoids it being a rebirth, yet leaving an opening for Mat to remember his ancestor's actions.
So, for my 2p... nope Mat is not Aemon-reborn...
Elder Haman: 2004-04-27
Wow, this is a powerful theory.
I especially like point 5 "death holds no fear in my heart," because Aemon was known to be fearless- so much so that the greatest compliment for courage was to say "He has Aemon's heart." Also, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Aemon as being unqualified to being bound to the Horn.
Actually Tamyrlin, the Aes Sedai did betray Manetheren- the Amyrlin at the time was a Red and was jealous of Aemon's wife's power in the One Power. She was deposed for her betrayal and replaced with a Blue.
Also, the point about Mat's memories is interesting because all of MAt's other memories appear after he goes through the archway and talks to the 'finns. These memories of Manetheren occur prior to Mat visiting the 'finns. I think we just got so caught up in the number of memories that we lumped them together and didn't recognize the differences.
I must say- I LIKE this theory.
Anubis: 2004-04-27
well tam, to my knowledge everyone is someone reborn. its just that rand is special, a specific person born in a specific time at a specific place with full access to memories from the past life.
aemon was the king of manatheren correct? im not sure really. If matt is anyone reborn i would believe it was the general whom he was in his flashback to the tower healing. Mayhaps the healing caused the barriers between past and present to break down temporarily and matt recalled his past life. This would be in fitting with the amrylin saying for a while past and present were one, would explain the shouts of i am no aes sedai meat, and would explain matts relativly irrational and relativly random complete mistrust of aes sedai. (recall that manatheren was betrayed by aes sedai) Sorry i forget the name of the person matt was in his vision (help me callandor!!).
however, i do really like your last comment about tuon and matt. not somthing i really gave much thought, but it does make a fair bit of sense.
Oh and one last thing. Matts thoughts in his vision are that he was known as a gambler on and off the battlefield. And he mentions the time to roll the dice. To me at least this points to not king, but very high ranking general, one respected by king and troops alike. And aemon was one brave mofo, so he would have been at the battle, commanding or no.
dragonsceptor: 2004-04-27
*** Mat remembers giving orders and making decisions during this battle which even a high ranking general would not do if the warder/king was on the battlefield.***
How do you know so much about Ancient Manarthen? It seems that we have pretty sketchy information about it. As far as what decisions a general would make, let's think about this. A King is not a general. When it comes to the last ditch defense of your kingdom would as smart king rely on their ability to make decisions impacting the defense or would they rely on an expert, his chief general? IMO, they would rely on the general that is an expert at warfare and spends the majority of their time practicing their craft. This points to Mat being a General rather than the King. IIRC, Mat also recalls seeing King Aemon killed.
I have thought that Mat was Aemon reborn in the past but I have changed my mind. It is my opinion that Mat is a Manarthen general reborn and IS a Hero of the Horn.
Brendan Reborn: 2004-04-27
It's a good theory.
Yes, aemon was 1000 years before hawking, but could hawking have been aemon reborn, and now mat is hawking reborn? Kind of like the whole harmonics theory with rand.
Grady: 2004-04-27
I like the theory and the points Guaire made, even though I think Aemon hating Aes Sedai is pretty thin. I just don't believe that if Aemon was reborn he wouldn't be a Hero of the Horn. He seems pretty important to randland's history and seems pretty qualified for the part, probably moreso than Hurin who might be one later on. Also when Hawkwing addresses Mat he only refers to him as Trumpeter. Seems to me that since the heroes recognize Rand for who he really is even though he isn't a Hero of the Horn, wouldn't atleast some of them recognize Mat as Aemon? Still I like the theory.
Flinn Sedai: 2004-04-27
Frenzy, we know that Tar Valon betrayed Menetheren. Only two Amyrlins were ever stripped of stole and staff and stilled. Once for trying to control Artur Hawkwing, and once for betraying Menetheran for jealousy of Ellisandre's power.
Khyprus: 2004-04-27
That about Aes Sedai betraying Manethern. It was the Aemyrlin that did it, a Red that envied that Aes Sedain in Manethern, dont recal any names but im sure of it.
Callandor: 2004-04-27
**I take this belief from another belief that the Dragon's soul is not tied to the Horn ...not to be called when the Horn is blown.**
Wrong. The Dragon is one of the Heroes.
**Q: "Is this soul born in any other age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as The Dragon/TDR?"
A: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age.**
**Actually Tamyrlin, the Aes Sedai did betray Manetheren- the Amyrlin at the time was a Red and was jealous of Aemon's wife's power in the One Power. She was deposed for her betrayal and replaced with a Blue.**
There are more then one points of view on who betrayed Manetheren; might as well say the Ogier did since they were late to the battle.
**well tam, to my knowledge everyone is someone reborn. its just that rand is special, a specific person born in a specific time at a specific place with full access to memories from the past life.**
Everyone is someone reborn again and again. Rand is the Dragon Reborn because he is specifically LTT reborn.
**aemon was the king of manatheren correct? ...Sorry i forget the name of the person matt was in his vision (help me callandor!!).**
A name is not given.
**Mat remembers giving orders and making decisions during this battle which even a high ranking general would not do if the warder/king was on the battlefield.**
Bull. Rand is the Dragon Reborn, the mightiest and most powerful man alive, yet he knows he does not know war like Mat or Lan or the Aiel chiefs or Bashere do. Kings rule; generals command armies. Kings rule over generals however.
Ok, on to the main theory....
**I also believe that lesser heroes such as Aemon can be tied to the Wheel in the same way only to be spun out when they are needed and not to be called when the Horn is blown.**
We are given no other example of this, so you are supposing Aemon is a stand alone Hero in that case. Souls are either reborn like normal people, or tied to the Wheel and the Horn as Heroes; there is no middle ground.
**1) During Moraine's tale of Aemon...at the place of their previous life's death a la LTT to Rand at Dragonmount.**
Rand and LTT is a very, very special case; only 1 example given in two whole Ages (as per Graendal).
**2) Min's first viewing of Mat includes a red eagle which if Mat is Aemon he would definitely have.**
Really? Only Aemon would have that? No one else from the entire country of Manetheren, being reborn would have this?
**Mat would have had the same soul in both times otherwise there would never been the slip to the past.**
There is another option, much more sensible, then Mat being Aemon: Mat is someone else from Manetheren reborn.
**This makes mat someone who was at the last battle of Manetheren, knows the old tongue fluently and freely uses Aemon's war cry as if it were his own. I believe that this points to the King himself and not to some unnamed general.**
Well Aemon was surely full of himself to use his own warcry then; usually only followers or sworn people (like generals) do that.
** So answer one is maybe even though he was a warder Aemon wasn't too fond of Aes Sedai himself. Answer two is a question: if your kingdom was destroyed and you, your wife and several thousands of people were killed because Aes Sedai betrayed you wouldn't you hate the Aes Sedai for it?**
One thing though: when a soul is reborn, the personality is different. Mat would not remember hating Aes Sedai in his past life, nor being betrayed by them.
Mat is Mat.
Also, in case against this, Asmodean tells about a battle against the country of Safer, and they spared their lives with mercy; Mat remembers it, as an ADVISOR OF THE KING, being killed by enemy betrayal (this is the same memory people have confused over about the younger enemy, and the later seen old aged enemy).
Mat, being a remarked upon by the Finn as "Son of Battles", was most likely a general from a previous life.
Anubis: 2004-04-27
matt being a general from the fall of manatheren reborn explains alot. it explains his memories that resurface during the Healing, and it explains his attitudes toward aes sedai. Most people from the two rivers have some form of respect for aes sedai, they allow themselves to be healed. Not matt. he has an irrational and complete mistrust of aes sedai. ever wonder why?
Callandor: 2004-04-27
**Yes, aemon was 1000 years before hawking, but could hawking have been aemon reborn, and now mat is hawking reborn? Kind of like the whole harmonics theory with rand.**
Whoa, what?
First, where are you getting that Mat is Hawkwing reborn? Hawkwing was summoned by the Horn; he could not be called by the Horn if he was reborn as Mat (look at Birgitte and Gaidal Cain). So, Mat is not Hawkwing (besides other circumstancial evidence).
Second, your timeline is messed up. Aemon was king during the Trolloc Wars; Hawkwing was 1000 years later. If you are correct, then Hawkwing would be Aemon; not Aemon being Hawkwing.
TheNetweaver: 2004-04-27
Callandor, as usual, has all the relevant quotes for us.
Obviously, Mat's memories come from at least two places--the original memories seem to be produced by his soul, and the Finns supplemented them. Also, the Aes Sedai apparently stirred something in him when they removed his addiciton to the ruby-hilted dagger. Right after he wakes up from the Healing, Jordan gives us the multiple page account from Manetheren. It's worth exploring what might have caused this sudden outbreak; his luck increases greatly at that time, too.
As for the soul question, I think it's either a strong case of the Old Blood, or he's a Manetheren reborn (Both, probably, since they could be linked). Perhaps it's a topic for the message boards, but why would the Aes Sedai procedure stimulate his memories?
charliec: 2004-04-28
Mat's memories from after the foxes come from a very wide range of sources in different nations and different times.
However it was an interesting point that his only memory before the foxes was that one from Manetheren... perhaps this does suggest a stronger-than-blood tie to Manetheren, but I don't see any conclusive evidence of him being Aemon...
Anubis: 2004-04-28
nice callandor, good work with the quotations. one point of slight contention tho.
someone (i think you but im lazy and not gonna go back and look) said that matt would not remember the past life / have personality traits from the old. I think this is too clear cut for me. When a soul is reborn somthing has to remain constant. Im with you on the Matt is Matt, but he does have a unusual avoidance of aes sedai for someone from the two rivers area. Im not saying that its this way, just that it fits. Hell he could have gotten his incredible mistrust of aes sedai after tar valon healing when the barriers between past and present broke down. I dont thing that before he was all that mistrusting, just the standard i dont understand so i will avoid type thing.
also the aes sedai DID betray manatheren. The amryllin used her influences to prevent other nations from coming to manatherens aid. Blaming the oigier is relativly pointless. Cant expect creatures that are little aware of the outside world to hear about manatheren at the same time as manatherens soldiers, then match the soldiers legendary march (it was mad fast) and show up on time and ready to fight. They did what they could to help, while the aes sedai intentionally witheld help and prevented others from helping out of jealousy. (can ya tell who i like more?)
oh and i really like matt being nameless general reborn. somthing ive wanted to see in the series since moirine gave the story of manatherens fall is the ghost of manatheren coming back. Matt being general reborn is like the broken blade returning to the fight and thats just cool.
Anubis: 2004-04-28
donnow really. The dagger does mess with a persons soul tho, so it is not terrably unreasonable that removing its effects would stirr things around on the soul front and possibly canse matt to remember a past life. I guess its the type of question only RJ can answer for sure.
Brendan Reborn: 2004-04-28
I guess that slipped my mind.(the hawking thing) the latest guess I have would be that all the people (hawking, aemon) went into the ter'angreal and for their wish to be fulfilled, they had to give up there memories. (mat kind of gave his up to, I.E. the holes)
Oh yea Callandor, I said
**Yes, aemon was 1000 years before hawking, but could hawking have been aemon reborn, and now mat is hawking reborn? Kind of like the whole harmonics theory with rand.**
What you said:
**Second, your timeline is messed up. Aemon was king during the Trolloc Wars; Hawkwing was 1000 years later. If you are correct, then Hawkwing would be Aemon; not Aemon being Hawkwing.**
So I was correct. Thanks for clarification on hawking though.
Brendan Reborn: 2004-04-28
I think that Mat's memories were given to him by the finns to fill the wholes that he had. I also think that they were responsible for some of the wholes he had after his visit. Maybe he will go back to the finns (to save moiraine) and they will take all his battle memories of this age and give them to the next "mat".
dragonsceptor: 2004-04-28
So, I have a question. It seems like most people are agreeing that Mat is someone from Manetheren reborn (not necessarily Aemon but at least someone from Manatheren). If this is the case, why is it Perrin that is rebuilding Manatheren? It would seem like Mat would be the likely candidate unless Perrin is also someone from Manatheren reborn. Any thoughts? I personally think that both Mat and Perrin are Hero's of the Horn who have been reborn to assist the dragon.
anudhra sedai: 2004-04-28
It keeps being mentioned that Mat has an irrational distrust/dislike of Aes Sedai, but why is it irrational. I think it is common to distrust Aes Sedai. There is even that saying that is constantly quoted about how you can't take anything an Aes Sedai says at face value due to the way the twist the words and the truth.
Mat just has alot of memories from people from the past and is strong in the Old blood. I especially like the point about how Perrin is resurrecting Manetheran and not Mat. Therefore, I would also have to disagree about Mat being Aemon.
Callandor: 2004-04-28
**I think this is too clear cut for me. When a soul is reborn somthing has to remain constant. ... I dont thing that before he was all that mistrusting, just the standard i dont understand so i will avoid type thing.**
We know Birgitte, when reborn in the AoL, knew nothing of any of her past lives, nor that she was in fact a Hero of the Horn.
If I am understanding this correctly, it is implied that Mat's previous memories, as Aemon, influenced his behavior in the present life. Going simply off the Birgitte example, we know this to be false; Mat would remember nothing of his past personality (or at least shouldn't) to influence his own. His personal distrust of Aes Sedai, has come through do to their manipluation of him.
For more proof, we can turn to Robert Jordan Interviews:
**Audience: The question is, with Rand and LTT, do they have 1 soul or 2 souls in the body?
Robert Jordan:
They have 1 soul with 2 personalities. The reincarnation of souls does not mean reincarnation of personalities. The personality develops with each reincarnation of the soul. This is the cosmology that I came hobbled together.**
Also would like to add something that more adds to Mat not being Aemon, but you could argue against it:
**TITLE: A Crown of Swords
CHAPTER 21: Swovan Night
"You, Mat," she managed while trying not to double over. At least she was not speaking the Old Tongue any more either. She knuckled a tear from the corner of her eye. "Some people speak a few words, a phrase of two, because of the old blood. Usually without understanding what they say, or not quite. *But you.... One sentence you're an Eharoni High Prince and the next a First Lord of Manetheren, accent and idiom perfect.* No, don't worry. Your secret is safe with me." She hesitated. "Is mine with you?"**
You could argue that the accent and idiom of the First Lord of Manetheren could be due to the Finn memories, it certainly is a possibility, but not linked to Aemon, otherwise it would be King of Manetheren (they seem to speak differently, since Birgitte can differenciate between them).
ilgross: 2004-04-29
Manethren was betrayed by the Amrylin, that is why she was stilled.
She was a red, called Bonhwin
Alcair Dareis: 2004-04-29
While Mat is, of course, some soul reborn, and most likely a hero of the horn as well, he is not Aemon. I don't have any of the books to quote from, but in reading a few of the interviews involving RJ, he mentioned the fact that Mat asked the 'finns for, 'the wholes in his memory to be filled.' This does not mean that it would be reincarnations of his own soul put there, or even the life he's just been living. He didn't specify where he wanted those memories to come from.
Moiraine explained to Rand and Mat in Tear that they(the 'finns) are a strange people, feeding off of emotion and MEMORIES of those who enter their world. Hence, the incredible sniffing and continued mentionings of 'it's been so long.' One doorway has been stuck in Rhuidean for thousands of years, and Tear holds the other one, and it's been there for at least a few hundred. No one has really been in there so all the 'finns have are the old kings and generals from long ago who traipsed in there thousands of years ago, giving the 'finns some memories to feed off of.
Now, the accents and idioms of the old tongue are also something of note. Because of the fact that the Old Tongue has been taught to the higher levels of society since the breaking(I'm assuming this), and it was mostly these people who had access to at least one of the doorways, then there is a simple explanation, which I will eventually summarize. Matrim Cauthon was born in the land where Manetheren once stood, and so the old blood is running strong in his veins, just as it it in everyone elses' around the Two Rivers. But he can recall sayings and decipher certain things BEFORE he comes into contact with either the 'finns or the Shadar Logoth dagger...so how does that come into the scene?
I believe that his pieces come from that old blood, as well as being the 'son of battles' and most likely a Hero of the Horn. But when he recieved the Logoth dagger, it was like a computer virus that corrupted data. And since the dark 'soul' of Mashadar is within every stone of the place, it would seep into him certain other memories and feelings(such as the intense paranoia, i.e. of Aes Sedai).
When the Aes Sedai separated him from the dagger, some of his own memories were destroyed, as well as the majority of those recieved from the dagger, because of the corruption. Also, the mention of past and present barrier being broken means that some veil might have been pulled away(because it had been corrupted) and thus had made our precious Mat more susceptible to the memories flooding his reborn soul and whatnot. After going in for a chat with both the 'finns and receiving memories from anyone who had visited(obviously he only the ones with battle history, though) it all developed into what he has now.
The only thing I really can't explain is his luck, though I have a tentative idea. In being ta'veren, like I believe the majority of the Heroes must be, and from perhaps the 'finns, Mat developed that sense. Maybe it's just an inherent nature of his soul every time he's reborn though.
Okay, I'm back from my tangent, now.
Mat is not Aemon, and though some of his memories are most likely from his soul in previous incarnations, there is no way that they all could be his own. In the first place, heroes aren't just spun out at random, because they don't need to be. Battles and wars are going on all the time, and if heroes were needed for everything then...I know I wouldn't really think that much of them.. So, when he asked the 'finns to fill in the gaps, they had to give him his wish. They knew him as the 'son of battles' and so they gathered together the memories they knew belonged to men of war and stuck them into Mat's head. He's not Aemon, because he is a general,(kings don't usually remember dicing in taverns and dandling girls on their knees) and even though Aemon might have been there, Mat was not the king/warder. If I forgot to tie up anything else I started on, please remind me, but my class is over and I have to get going.
"Sa souvraya niende misain ye."
I am lost in my own mind.
-Alcair Dareis
Elder Haman: 2004-04-29
While a soul's previous incarnation would not usually effect the personality of the present incarnation there are a few caveats.
1) Personality traits do appear to remain constant- for example, Brigitte is always an archer, adventerous, hates Gadial Cain at first sight. Although it could also be argued that each of her incarnations had different personalities, some things remain the same. In Mat's case it appears to be a constant that he's a gambler/trickster who is happy-go-lucky and relies on his luck.
2) Apparently memories of previous lives aren't destroyed with each rebirth, instead it's suppresed, hidden behing a veil so that it can not be accessed by the new incarnation. Consider that every Hero of the Horn regains the memories of all their previous lives when they die and return to the World of Dreams.
However, if something causes this viel or barrier to weaken, memories can filter acroos and begin effecting the personality of the new incarnation. The primary example being Rand, who has dealt with it by creating a alternate personality to contain these memories, named Lews Therin. This is likely a result of the taint, and the reason other male channelers began to hear voices. The viel preventing them from remembering their former lives was being torn.
It is possible that Mat's expierence with the dagger, and most particularly his healing has damaged this viel and is causing Mat to be effected by his previous personalities.
charliec: 2004-04-29
**they seem to speak differently, since Birgitte can differenciate between them). **
She may not be differentiating between kings and first lords, but rather referrign to the ruling class of 'first lords' of whom the king would be a member (albeit the leader)
But yes I agree that Mat's old Tongue has come from the memories, not as a result of rebirth.
IMO Mat's soul's past is of little interest to us, I don't think he's got a glamourous background except through his bloodline.
What is of interest to us is his future... we know (as someone pointed out) that he is not a hero of the horn, or the others would have recognised him, and besides the Dragon has not been tied to 2 others like this before either.
My hunch is that Mat and Perrin are on their way up though, and will end up as heroes of the horn, and that's why RJ stuck in the line where one of the heroes tells Hurin that he might join them... "the wheel sometimes adds to our number"
Callandor: 2004-04-29
**Manethren was betrayed by the Amrylin, that is why she was stilled.
She was a red, called Bonhwin**
No, Bonwhin was stilled for trying to control Artur Hawkwing, 1000 years after the Trolloc Wars.
The Amyrlin Seat stilled was Tetsuan, but she was a Red.
**She may not be differentiating between kings and first lords, but rather referrign to the ruling class of 'first lords' of whom the king would be a member (albeit the leader)**
Given no indication of this. In all the other feudal kingdoms of Randland, there is the ruler (the King in Manetheren), and then below them, the nobles (the Lords and Ladies). Kings you might conciveder part of the Lords, but why? They are in a position totally above Lords and quite different. Easily enough for there to be a distinction.
Alcair Dareis: 2004-04-29
Those are also quite interesting...and I have a few other ideas that flowed through my little mind as I was reading that.
I agree with the idea of the personality traits remaining constant, because a soul's essence does not change, it simply adapts to the situation it is raised in.
And while the veil idea has been intriguing deeply, there also must be something that suppresses them(memories). As heroes, and having been reborn thousands of times, their souls(or perhaps somewhere deep in their subconcsious) begin to trace out everything that's going on. Now, Birgitte is really worried after she is torn out of T'A'R because she is fully aware who she is, and not only does she remember everything(at least in the beginning), but she mentions how she always just did 'what needed to be done'. The veil prevents the memories from being remembered at birth, but a suppressant is also needed, perhaps, in order to filter out their 'heroic essence.' They can't know of the heroic things they've done before, but they are reborn because those actions are needed again. They always just know what they need to do, like how Mat knows how to fight and though he would vehemently argue, he does the right thing as much as he can.
Now, I still continue with my thought that not all of the memories are Mat's...his soul could not possibly have been reborn that often, because there are thousands of people in the world, perhaps close to a thousand heroes, and at any given time, probably millions out there just coming from death and jumping in line to be reborn. Now, the 'finns had met up with hundreds of people, because leaders and officials of high rank had used at least one ter'angreal in order to ask their 3 questions(wish-granter 'finns haven't been used since it was with the Aes Sedai, before the breaking.) So, they filled in whatever chunks had been purged from Mat by his ordeal with the dagger and the Aes Sedai, but they just grabbed them from any military source they could find.(I'll explain a bit more later on..once I do a bit of 'research').
Now, in response to "we know (as someone pointed out) that he is not a hero of the horn, or the others would have recognised him, and besides the Dragon has not been tied to 2 others like this before either."
Nowhere have I read someone in the books or as one of RJ's statements that Mat and Perrin are not already heroes. (I might be wrong, so this is just what I'm aware of right now.) Also, we don't know that the DR has never been tied to others, but as a representative of the creator(also my opinion), he obviously isn't able to do it alone in ANY age. ((I.E. Birgitte has Moggy after her because she chose to follow LTT(thus lending help) in the last age, and that's from...CoS, I beleive, though I'd have to look it up. Other heroes are obviously there to help level out the balance with the Dragon, as well as many other uses.))
Also, Mat was indeed recognized when he blew the horn. He was called something like 'hornsounder' or some such. I don't know whether it was just because it was what he did(blow the HoV, of course) at that moment, for the first time and maybe the last time, but I think that Mat is a hero in a slightly different manner than the rest. He's a gambler, yes, and depends on luck...how lucky is it to have the HoV right at the time when it is needed to save lives(basically almost every main character up to that point)? If that made sense, I will continue with...I think that Mat's soul is THE hornsounder, and by that I think that whenever the Horn is needed, then he is reborn and put into a position where he can follow the horn and have it when he needs it most(be it foreign invasion or TG).
He may not always be reborn just when the horn is going to be sounded, but he is tied to the horn already, IMO, and is a validated hero of the horn..the 'Son of Battles'.
Sa souvraya niende misain ye.
nowhere man: 2004-04-29
A minor point: it always seemed to me that the "Aes Sedai meat" bit during Mat's healing was the Mordeth/Aridhol taint talking.
Oatman: 2004-04-30
The reason I always thought Mat disliked and distrusted Aes Sedai was a simple personality clash - Aes Sedai are controlling, manipulative, and arrogant, and Mat hates being contolled and manipulated, and is a bit arrogant himself. It is also this reason that he dislikes nobles.
Back to the Theory - Wouldnt Mat more likely be the reborn soul of the person who created the first Band of the Red Hand? (cant think of the name). It fits Mats personality right down to the battlecry, Its time to roll the dice. Disprove me if you want, I dont have much to back it up.
charliec: 2004-04-30
**Kings you might conciveder part of the Lords, but why? They are in a position totally above Lords and quite different. Easily enough for there to be a distinction. **
Sure there's a distinction in terms of status, authority and function... it's just I think it very unlikely that there would be a distinction of accent as well, despite his authority the King would normally be in the same social class as the high nobility. He would be educated by the same systems, and spend most of his time with similar people... it would be very unlikely then for kings to have an accent which is distinct from the high nobility, so I don't feel Birgitte's comment is a useful indicator here.
dragonsceptor: 2004-04-30
***No one has really been in there so all the 'finns have are the old kings and generals from long ago who traipsed in there thousands of years ago, giving the 'finns some memories to feed off of.***
Not all of Mat's memories come from people who have gone through the door. See the question of the week on Tor's website. RJ said, "But I will say that if I said those adventurers all entered through the two ter'angreal, I misspoke. A good many entered through the Tower of Ghenjei, which was more widely known in earlier years, if never exactly a household name."
Alcair Dareis: 2004-04-30
So, all of them did eventually get to the 'finnland because of either the doorways or the Tower...I suppose it really doesn't matter how you get into the place, because they just sniff up..essence of memory or extract of emotion...
I agree that a High Lord would not have a different accent than a King. A majority of the distinction within Randland is through accent... Not, "His accent sounded of the nobility from Tear, but his companion was obviously a commoner from Cairhein." We get more of a general area accent, i.e. "His thick slurred way of speaking was like his fellows, and just as hard to understand as the rest of them."
Mat is not Aemon, though the idea that he might be the original Red Hand leader is an idea...
Sa souvraya niende misain ye.
Callandor: 2004-04-30
**Now, I still continue with my thought that not all of the memories are Mat's......probably millions out there just coming from death and jumping in line to be reborn.**
About a hundred or so Heroes, as per TGH.
**Sure there's a distinction in terms of status, authority and function......would normally be in the same social class as the high nobility.**
Couldn't be as simple as a distinction between Common and High Chant?
charliec: 2004-05-01
**"But I will say that if I said those adventurers all entered through the two ter'angreal, **
As an aside, I suppose this implies that the Finns share information with each other... can anyone point me to some theorising/interviews to do with the relations between Snakes and Foxes?
charliec: 2004-05-02
**Couldn't be as simple as a distinction between Common and High Chant?**
I'd got the impression that High Chant was a performance voice, using more advanced rhythm and intonation, not something that people would actually speak in.
Even if the king did put on a different style of speech, the tendency in courts would be for the nobles to follow suit... unless it was outlawed, but Manetheren doesn't seem like that kind of kingdom to me...
dragonsceptor: 2004-05-02
I completely agree with you Charliec.
**Wouldnt Mat more likely be the reborn soul of the person who created the first Band of the Red Hand? (cant think of the name). It fits Mats personality right down to the battlecry, Its time to roll the dice. Disprove me if you want, I dont have much to back it up**
I agree with you as well Oatman. It fits with Mat being a general reborn and not the king, his reforming of the band, the sayings, his old blood...I like it.
Darren: 2004-05-03
**despite Thom's comments in Shadar Logoth, Rand is the only confirmed example we have of a particular person being reborn** (From Frenzy)
Well, I haven't read the whole thread yet, so I'm probably not the only one to say this, but that's just ridiculous. We KNOW, for example, that Gaidal Cain had been reborn. Birgitte "confirms" that she has been reborn many times. So what'choo talking about, woman?
Anyhow...
It IS a little obvious that if Mat is not Aemon reborn, he was certainly a general or Captain in the Heart Guard. So obvious, in fact, that why bother talking about it? Let's see some interesting speculation. I myself think he was also the general who co-founded Andor reborn (I don't have the texts here, so don't expect me to supply a name)
Also, one other little issue. There seems to be the idea here that the Finns gave Mat all of his memories, or that his memories of past lives began with the Finns. This is not true.
One could easily argue that his recollection began with the warcry that starts this discussion, outside Shadar Logoth. And they might be right. Certainly, however, Mat's memories were definitely being messed with once he had the dagger.
Alcair Dareis: 2004-05-03
"**Now, I still continue with my thought that not all of the memories are Mat's......probably millions out there just coming from death and jumping in line to be reborn.**
About a hundred or so Heroes, as per TGH. "
I don't mean there are millions of heroes...Every soul within the wheel is reborn, and has been since the creation of the wheel itself, so these people are the ones jumping back in line to be reborn(perhaps in a sub-section of T'A'R where they are either aware(like the heroes, which I doubt) or simply 'sleeping' until their soul is reborn.) The hundred or so heroes are waiting in a different fashion, because they aren't rank-and-file souls and so they are aware what's going on between lives...
Brendan Reborn: 2004-05-03
I don't think mat is anyone reborn. I think he will be added to the heroes after tarmon gaidon and can be called in the next turning.
Jaidh: 2004-05-03
I feel that Mat is Aemon reborn. But I also feel that Mat is tied to The Wheel in another fashion, not only through Aemon
dragonsceptor: 2004-05-03
Darren,
As was discussed above, Mat's memories come from two sources: 1) The old blood which is what you are referencing regarding out side Shador Logoth and 2) the Finns filling in the holes in his memory with other people's memories.
The way I see it, prior to Rhuidean, his memories were only of his past lives. After Rhuidean, he has memories from various people across many years mixed with his own memories of this life and his past life.
Jaidh: 2004-05-03
Ok. I agree with Dragonseptor, that Mat's memories could be from his past lives. It is very possible because the Dagger from Shadar Logoth could have(just my theory) unlocked his past lives that had occured though The Wheel.
Darren: 2004-05-04
That's exactly my point, ds... except that you seem to believe that all those past lives the Finns filled him in on were not Mat's. They are. Also, while the Old Blood may sing indeed, outside of Mat Cauthon, it has NEVER reached the sort of level that it had with Mat even before he went into Rhuidean. That's why Thom spoke so sceptically of Moiraine's statement. The dagger was tied to the soul of Mordeth, who was the driving force behind the chief "ally" of Manetheren. Before Mat went to Rhuidean, in TDR, Hammar asks him where is from; what does he say? (responding without thinking) Manetheren.
As to the notion that Mat will be "added" to the Horn, what makes you think he is not already bound to the Horn?
Shartai: 2004-05-04
I don't believe that Mat is Aemon reborn but I think that most of his memories, are the memories of Aemon. It might also be possible that some of Aemon's personality got put into Mat and that is why he can never run away from a battle.
Oh, and on the theory that Mat will become Tuon's warder, I agree. I think this will be part of their wedding ceremony or something.
Brendan Reborn: 2004-05-04
I honestly don't beleive that Mat is anyone reborn. It doesn't make sense. Though Mat shouts something different, the other two rivers people also blurt out in the old tongue. The next time he starts speaking like this is after SL, so I don't think it could have been someone reborn.
Jaidh: 2004-05-04
***I honestly don't beleive that Mat is anyone reborn. It doesn't make sense. Though Mat shouts something different, the other two rivers people also blurt out in the old tongue. ***
First, Mat as well as the other two river folk can blurt out the old tounge because they have the old blood. So if the blood expains how they blurt out old tounge then explain to me the memories that the has; accept for the ones given my Flinn. For me, I would say that since it is a Wheel there must by some memories from past lives espically for a Ta'veren.
Gandalf: 2004-05-04
What bothers me is that most people have the rebirth thing all wrong.
Rand is the "Dragon" reborn, not LTT reborn. The "Dragon" is the soul and the names/people, Rand and LTT, are the personalities. So...Rand is the Dragon and LTT was the Dragon, but Rand is not LTT or vice versa.
Now, about Mat. Mat is a reborn hero. Which soul is he? The "Hornsounder" or the "Son of Battles" or the "Gambler". I don't believe Aemon could have been anyone of these, but Mat is. They are all names for the same soul.
Also, Mat was not Hawkwing because Hawkwing called him "Hornsounder" so Hawkwing knows him for the hero he is. Birgette also knows what soul has been reborn as Mat.
Mat's soul is a general and is reborn to lead men, the "Son of Battles." It is possible that only his soul sounds the HoV because wouldn't it make since for the "Son of Battles" to summon the dead heroes to fight for him? Mat is the "Gambler" because wouldn't someone have to be to do all the crazy things he does?
dragonsceptor: 2004-05-04
Darren, how can all of the memories be Mat's? IIRC, Mat remembers fighting on opposite sides of the same battle at times.
Also, how do you explain the following quote from RJ: "But I will say that if I said those adventurers all entered through the two ter'angreal, I misspoke. A good many entered through the Tower of Ghenjei, which was more widely known in earlier years, if never exactly a household name."
This seems pretty clear that the memories came from people who visited the Finns.
The part about Mat and the old blood is debatable. Unfortunately, we don't have enough information to make a decision one way or the other. I will stick with it being the old blood until someone can give me a better explanation.
Also, I believe that Mat is already a Hero of the Horn, namely the Hornsounder. I stated this belief and provided the aforementioned quote in my posts above.
Oatman: 2004-05-05
I just dont think Aemon and Mat are mentioned enough in the same context for Mat to be Aemon Reborn. Also, Aemon was a noble person, and Mat is like the Anti-Noble - rude, poor language, gambling, bar fighting, the works. He is a soldier, not a noble. Like i said before, if he is anyone reborn, he is the founder of the Band of the Red Hand Reborn.
charliec: 2004-05-05
Darren-
**That's exactly my point, ds... except that you seem to believe that all those past lives the Finns filled him in on were not Mat's. They are. Also, while the Old Blood may sing indeed, outside of Mat Cauthon, it has NEVER reached the sort of level that it had with Mat even before he went into Rhuidean.**
Do you have quotes to back this up? particularly about all of the memories being from past lives? RJ's comments do not support this, if they are ALL from past lives why did so many have to come from people who have entered the tower of Ghenjei?
It is possible that Mat's memories from Manetheren are from a past life, but not certain, however these are just a fraction of his memories, neither the earliest or the latest, and the other memories are spread over a wide range of times and locations.
If these are all from past lives he seems to have been reborn remarkably frequently over the last 2 thousand years... much more frequently than Birgitte. I'm under the impression (possibly erroneous) that heroes of the horn are spun out more often than normal souls, but even they do not match the rapidity of Mat's apparent rebirths. I doubt then that the memories all come from Mat's previous lives, and even the Manetheren memories can happily be attributed to the old blood, combined with the effect of the dagger. When Rand enters the pillars in Rhuidean he sees through his ancestors eyes in much the same way that Mat sees through the general's eyes, however when Rand deals with his former self he feels distinct from him, unlike Mat's experience.
**As to the notion that Mat will be "added" to the Horn, what makes you think he is not already bound to the Horn?**
Read higher up the thread, but I think the point about frequency of rebirth is also valid here.
Elder Haman: 2004-05-05
Actually Mat is the only one of the Two Rivers folk to speak in the Old tounge, although Egwene does (partially) understand the old tounge. Neither Perrin nor Nynaeve have any response to the Old Tounge. (Rand doesn't count because he's not really of Two River descent)
Alcair Dareis: 2004-05-05
** "That's exactly my point, ds... except that you seem to believe that all those past lives the Finns filled him in on were not Mat's. They are. Also, while the Old Blood may sing indeed, outside of Mat Cauthon, it has NEVER reached the sort of level that it had with Mat even before he went into Rhuidean. That's why Thom spoke so sceptically of Moiraine's statement. The dagger was tied to the soul of Mordeth, who was the driving force behind the chief "ally" of Manetheren. Before Mat went to Rhuidean, in TDR, Hammar asks him where is from; what does he say? (responding without thinking) Manetheren. " **
Well, the thing is, he has memories that are two closely tied together for him to have been reborn that many times. The Horn only weaves the heroes out at a time of great need, and if Mat is already a hero, then he could not possibly have been able to be reborn that many times. I don't believe he is Aemon from the points I've already shown, but he might just be someone from Manetheren reborn(Because when your country is about to be obliterated by shadowspawn that's a pretty big deal...'time of great need' and whatnot). The soul of Mordeth would now hold the memories and emotions of the people of Aridhol, because their paranoia of each other grew so great that 'even the dust swirling about his boots held its taint' *from The Crown of Swords*. They created a new different evil, which Rand plays off of to destroy each other. It's an anti-biotic. Given in natural form when it is not needed can cause some trouble for you, but when it's offered to destroy a different germ or virus, it works great. Therefore, I believe the the taint of Aridhol corrupted the viel masking memories and feelings(causing the paranoia within Mat).
Basically, the relative closeness of all of Mat's memories make it impossible for them all to have been his own. The 'finns granted him a wish, filling in the holes...but they didn't just give him his own soul's memories(if any are truly his own), they gave him whatever they had. As the "son of battles" he is, in my view, a hero of the horn already. People born into the ta'verenism in my point of view are already heroes, whereas people that earn it through noble deeds are 'adopted into the family'.
Mat is already a hero, his memories are not only his own soul's past lives, the dagger helped to start the path down the Old Blood shindigs, and the 'finns granted him his wish(filling in the holes where his filed memories had been deleted during the purging).
Sa souvraya niende misain ye.
TFalcon: 2004-05-05
Title: The Dragon Reborn
Chapter 19 Awakening
The packed lines of spearmen stretched a mile or more to either side below him, dotted with the pennants and banners of towns and cities and minor houses. The river secured his flank on the left, the bogs and mires on the right. From the hillside he watched the spearmen struggle against the mass of Trollocs trying to break through, ten times the humans' number. Spears pierced black Trolloc mail, and spiked axes carved bloody gaps in the human ranks. Screams and bellows harried the air. The sun burned hot overhead in a cloudless sky, and shimmers of heat rose above the battle line. Arrows still rained down from the enemy, slaying Trolloc and human alike. He had called his archers back, but the Dreadlords did not care so long has they broke his line. On the ridge behind him, the Heart Guard awaited his command, horses stamping impatiently. Armor on men and horses alike shone silver in the sunlight; neither men nor animals could stand the heat much longer.
They must win here or die. He was known has a gambler; it was time to doss the dice. In a voice that carried over the tumult below, he gave the order as he swung up into his saddle. “Footmen prepare to pass cavalry forward!” His bannerman rode close beside him, the red eagle banner flapping over his head, as the command was repeated up and down the line.
Below, the spearmen suddenly moved, sidestepping with good discipline, narrowing their formations, opening wide gaps between. Gaps into which the Trollocs poured, roaring bestial cries, like a black, oozing tide of death.
He drew his sword, raised it high. “Forward the Heart Guard!” He dug his heels in, and his mount leaped down the slope. Behind him, hooves thundered in the charge. “Forward!” He was the first to strike into the Trollocs, his sword rising and falling, his bannerman close behind. “For the honor of the Red Eagle!” The Heart Guard pounded into the gaps between the spearmen, smashing the tide, hurling it back. “The Red Eagle!” Half-human faces snarled at him, oddly curved swords sought him, but he cut is way ever deeper. Win or die. “Manetheren!”
I saw that no one posted it yet so i did. Itis the memory al this was started on.
Carai an Caldazar!Carai an Ellisande! Al Ellisande!
that is the one he said before the dagger or the healing. The memory one is different and that his a good clue that Mat isn't Aemon reborn but that he is one of the higher up nobles.
Ared: 2004-05-06
Well, stating that "I don't think Mat is anyone reborn" has the major flaw that in Randland everyone is reborn over and over again. Also because of the references to Mat as "The Gambler" that's who is reborn as, kind of his theme as a character..If that is Aemon then Mat is Aemon but I don't recall any references to Aemon as much of a gambler which is the main reason I doubt this theory.
: 2004-05-08
Okay, my earlier response must have gotten lost somewhere.
On speaking in the old tounge- Mat is the only one of the Two Rivers folk to do so. Neither Perrin nor Nynaeve speak it, Egwene vaugely understands it, but does not speak it. (Rand doesn't count because he is NOT of Two Rivers descent). Only Mat starts spouting off in the old tougne.
Personally, I find Moiraine passing it of as "the old blood" to be suspicious. Remember that she is not yet open about her knowledge or intentions, and it would be like Moiraine to divert thoughts to something like the "old blood" instead of the possibility of Aemon's rebirth.
I don't think the "Old Blood" would result in someone speaking whole phrases in the old tounge, and certianly not the specific battle cry of a certain king. (See Brigitte's discourse on the difference between the "old blood" and Mat's behavior). With all of the other hints about Mat's previous incarnation Moiraine's "old blood" explaination becomes even more suspicious.
Also- The point about Mat's memories is that Mat's memories after visiting the finns can not be used to disqualify Mat from being Aemon reborn because they are not memories from Mat's previous lives. Mat's memories from before the finns are from his previous life- and only point to the last battle where Manetheren was destroyed. These memories could have come from either a General, Captian of the Heart Guard, Leader of the Band, or King Aemon himself.
However other things point to Aemon. I think the strongest is when Mat cries out "Death holds no fear in my heart" in the old tounge. Especially since this in EotW, where we have already been told that Aemon was so renown for his bravery that the greatest compliment for courage was to say "that man has Aemon's heart." In this same book we also see Mat giving the war cry of King Aemon, and as the final kicker, IIRC, the about quote about no fear of death is not translated out of the old tounge in the book- and that would be just like RJ to give us a clue that can only be discovered by translating the old tounge. I find it hard to believe that RJ just put all these clues in the same book- the first book- and never intended to give the impression that Mat was Aemon reborn.
As for the arguement that Mat is the "Anti-noble" and therefore can't be a noble: We have seen nobles that act like Mat, and we don't know anything about Aemon's charactor, except that he was couragous. We can't rule out the possibility that Aemon was a bit of a rouge in his younger days.
As for why Perrin is rebuilding Manetheren instaed of Mat- Perrin is a builder, Mat is a gambler/war leader. Aemon did not lead his nation to peace and prosperity, but to a glorious death in war- (Mat has also shown these tendancies)- not the sort of reborn soul you'd give a rebuilding job to.
As a final thought, I couldn't help but reflect on the fact that the story of Aridol's fall was tied up with Manetheren, and that it is Mat, descendent of Manetheren blood/Aemon reborn who stands up to Mordeth when Perrin and Rand are both daunted, and then gets involved in the whole dagger problem.
jason wolfbrother: 2004-05-08
Gandalf
**Also, Mat was not Hawkwing because Hawkwing called him "Hornsounder" so Hawkwing knows him for the hero he is. Birgette also knows what soul has been reborn as Mat.**
Umm no Birgitte calls Mat Hornsounder. Hawkwing never said a word to Mat.
Brendan Reborn: 2004-05-08
**First, Mat as well as the other two river folk can blurt out the old tounge because they have the old blood. So if the blood expains how they blurt out old tounge then explain to me the memories that the has; accept for the ones given my Flinn. For me, I would say that since it is a Wheel there must by some memories from past lives espically for a Ta'veren.**
I will try not to address the issues too rudely.
First, the old blood runs strong in the two rivers, hence the reason they shout cries of Manetheren. That was exactly my point. What makes him different then the other two? He says somehing different yes, but that's only an indication that the old blood runs stronger in him than the other two. I don't understand your point on that one.
Secondly, yes some of his memories have come previous lives, it is a wheel. EVERYONE MUST BE REBORN. That's how the wheel weaves. But, the matter at hand is why he remembers them. The finns of course. Mat is not a hero reborn, he will be added to the horn, but as of right now, his memories come from the finns and there is nothing to prove otherwise, that I know of.
charliec: 2004-05-09
**Also, Mat was not Hawkwing because Hawkwing called him "Hornsounder" so Hawkwing knows him for the hero he is. Birgette also knows what soul has been reborn as Mat.**
Not exactly conclusive... Hawkwing referred to him as "Hornsounder" because he had just sounded the horn, and it was then bound to him, he had become the Hornsounder for the moment. There is no indication that this is a more permanent arrangement. Hawkwing also refers to someone else as "bannerman" (Hurin I think), but that doesn't indicate that Hurin's soul is always the dragon's bannerman... in fact we later see counter examples... or that Hurin is a hero... we're even told that he's not.
The heroes recognise the dragon, and talk with him, even make jokes, but they don't do this with any of the others- neither Perrin nor Mat are treated as old friends, and Mat is only referred to by the title of his current position.
**Birgette also knows what soul has been reborn as Mat.**
No she doesn't. She's as surprised by his memories and knowledge as he is.
Davian93: 2004-05-09
****Also, Mat was not Hawkwing because Hawkwing called him "Hornsounder" so Hawkwing knows him for the hero he is. Birgette also knows what soul has been reborn as Mat.****
Hawkwing calls Mat "hornsounder" for one very simple blatantly obvious reason that has nothing to do with any soul that mat was reborn as. MAT SOUNDED THE HORN OF VALERE AT TOMAN HEAD. He sounded the horn and had it on his person when the heroes appeared. That is why they referred to him as hornsounder. Whether or not that is his role every time the horn is sounded is unknown as the horn of valere hasnt been sounded any other time other than at Toman head and before that it was sounded sometime before the Age of Legends.
TheNetweaver: 2004-05-10
How can Mat be the Hornsounder and a Hero of the Horn? Unless you're saying that he's only the Hornsounder in this lifetime, which I guess I can accept. Perhaps whoever blows the HoV is called Hornsounder by the Heros, even though it's a different soul each time. However, I like the idea that Mat's soul is the always the Hornsounder--Is there any other evidence for it?
Anubis: 2004-05-11
gandalf. sorry but you got it wrong. rand is lews theren telamon reborn. when the prophesy was made there was only one dragon. that was lews theren. the forsaken make mention of it being a specific man reborn at a specific time and having never heard of the like. also if its the dragon reborn and not LTT reborn then you could argue that LTT was the dragon reborn which he was not.
Anubis: 2004-05-11
darren. there is a BIG difference between being a person reborn and being the same soul born again. one is normal and natural. one is unique. Heroes are only different in that they remember their past lives when they die and that they have specific roles/attributes.
Callandor: 2004-05-11
**I don't believe that Mat is Aemon reborn but I think that most of his memories, are the memories of Aemon. It might also be possible that some of Aemon's personality got put into Mat and that is why he can never run away from a battle.**
Because of his personality? Mat wants NOTHING to do with battles; he could die. He knows this fact, and doesn't want to meet it.
Mat can't escape battles because he is always drawn to the center of them by his ta'veren nature.
**However other things point to Aemon. I...I find it hard to believe that RJ just put all these clues in the same book- the first book- and never intended to give the impression that Mat was Aemon reborn.**
No, but he would give red harrings.
**First, the old blood runs strong in the two rivers, hence the reason they shout cries of Manetheren..... I don't understand your point on that one.**
The Two Rivers people speak the Old Tongue under stress.
The reason people attribute Mat having "stronger" Old Blood then everyone else, is this quote:
**TITLE: Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 21 - Swovan Night
"You, Mat," she managed while trying not to double over. At least she was not speaking the Old Tongue any more either. She knuckled a tear from the corner of her eye. "Some people speak a few words, a phrase or two, because of the old blood. Usually without understanding what they say, or not quite. But you.... One sentence, you're an Eharoni High Prince and the next a First Lord of Manetheren, accent and idiom perfect. No, don't worry. Your secret is safe with me." She hesitated. "Is mine with you?"**
This is NOT stronger Old Blood! The reason Birgitte remarks about this is because Mat can speak fluently the Old Tongue; people with the Old Blood speak a few phrases. Mat had only the Old Blood before going to the Eelfinn in Rhuidean, afterwards, due TO THE MEMORIES GAINED THERE, he could speak fluent Old Tongue, hence sparking Birgitte's reaction.
**Secondly, yes some of his memories have come previous lives, it is a wheel. EVERYONE MUST BE REBORN. That's how the wheel weaves. But, the matter at hand is why he remembers them. The finns of course. Mat is not a hero reborn, he will be added to the horn, but as of right now, his memories come from the finns and there is nothing to prove otherwise, that I know of.**
Mat remembers a battle memory from before he went to the Finn. Why, who knows. Make up your own damn mind, but it is not the Finn.
His memories from after Rhuidean ARE from the Finn.
**Not exactly conclusive... Hawkwing referred to him as "Hornsounder" because he had just sounded the horn, and it was then bound to him, he had become the Hornsounder for the moment. ... or that Hurin is a hero... we're even told that he's not.
The heroes recognise the dragon, and talk with him, even make jokes, but they don't do this with any of the others- neither Perrin nor Mat are treated as old friends, and Mat is only referred to by the title of his current position.**
Please read the sections before reply about them.
Mat is refered to as Trumpeter; Perrin Bannerman. Whether these are "Hero" statuses, highly unlikely. They are most likely titles from warfare divisions, which Hawkwing just gave to them in their current situations.
Elder Haman: 2004-05-11
Perrin was refered to as the Bannerman, for some reason the Hero's assumed he had the Dragon Banner, (he did).
Also- big point, Mat was having flash backs to previous lives before meeting the 'finns. Not all of his memories come from the 'finns.
Elder Haman: 2004-05-13
You are quite right: the clues pointing to Mat as Aemon could be a red herring- or it could be foreshadowing. We'll just have to RAFO.
However, I still think that even before Mat's trip to 'finn land he was speaking in a manner that was excessive for a display of the "old blood". Therefore, I maintain that there was something other than the old blood effecting Mat before 'finnland.
Several people have said that Two Rivers folk speak the Old tounge when under stress- can anyone give an example other than Mat? Can anyone give an example of understanding the old tounge (due to the old blood) other than Mat and Egwene?
charliec: 2004-05-13
** **Not exactly conclusive... Hawkwing referred to him as "Hornsounder" because he had just sounded the horn, and it was then bound to him, he had become the Hornsounder for the moment. ... or that Hurin is a hero... we're even told that he's not.
The heroes recognise the dragon, and talk with him, even make jokes, but they don't do this with any of the others- neither Perrin nor Mat are treated as old friends, and Mat is only referred to by the title of his current position.**
Please read the sections before reply about them.
Mat is refered to as Trumpeter; Perrin Bannerman. Whether these are "Hero" statuses, highly unlikely. They are most likely titles from warfare divisions, which Hawkwing just gave to them in their current situations. **
Ease up Callandor, that's exactly the point I was making ;)
dragonsceptor: 2004-05-13
Thank you thank you for the quote that Perrin was referred to as the Bannerman. I think this can explain why it is Perrin that raises the Manatheren banner and is restoring Manatheren.
It makes sense to me. I know...I know...they were referring to the Dragon Banner...
I personally believe (nothing to back it up so feel free to flame it) that both Perrin and Mat are heros already and that Mat is the "trumpeter" and Perrin is the "bannerman". IIRC, a bannerman prepares the way before the lord and lets all know who is coming. Perhaps Perrin is building Manatheren for someone else.
Callandor: 2004-05-14
**Several people have said that Two Rivers folk speak the Old tounge when under stress- can anyone give an example other than Mat? Can anyone give an example of understanding the old tounge (due to the old blood) other than Mat and Egwene?**
Don't have to. Thus Spake the Creator:
**RJ didn't give any conclusive answer to the Two Rivers channeling paradox, but he noted that many strange occurances come from there, like inherent ability to speak the Old Tongue under stress.**
Also, it is not the Old Tongue, but definately the old blood here:
**TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 37 - What Might Be
Yet when the dire news came, none refused to accept him at their side. Trollocs and Fades and things undreamed of had burst out of the Blight, and the world's new masters were being thrown back, for all the powers they wielded. So Rand took up the bow he had just fingers enough left to shoot and limped with those who marched north to the River Taren, men from every village, farm, and corner of the Two Rivers, with their bows, and axes, and boarspears, and swords that had lain rusting in attics. Rand wore a sword, too, with a heron on the blade, that he had found after Tam died, though he knew nothing of how to use it. Women came, too, shouldering what weapons they could find, marching alongside the men. *Some laughed, saying that they had the strange feeling they had done this before.***
What they were "doing" before was obviously the last defense of Manetheren.
charliec: 2004-05-16
**I personally believe (nothing to back it up so feel free to flame it) that both Perrin and Mat are heros already and that Mat is the "trumpeter" and Perrin is the "bannerman". IIRC, a bannerman prepares the way before the lord and lets all know who is coming. Perhaps Perrin is building Manatheren for someone else.**
A Bannerman carries the lord's flag during battles- he is the focal point that the legion rallies around, and if he dies (which is reasonably likely as he can't also wield weapons) someone else would be expected to take his place. Bannermen aren't necessarily even officers. You might be thinking more along the lines of a herald, or ambassador.
Gandalf: 2004-05-16
Well, at least my first post to Theoryland was responded to. I bet not everyone can say that.
I'm not going to get into LTT, Rand, and the Dragon Reborn except to say Hawkwing calls him LTT because that was the last person the Dragon was. Later he refers to him as Rand. Hawkwing also states that he has fought at LTT's side "times beyond number" and faced him many more. (tGH pg 661) He can't always be called LTT and Hawkwing can't always be call Hawkwing.
"Hornsounder" - yes, I was wrong...
I hadn't read tGH for a while so I went out and bought it.
*****
tGH, Chapter 47: The Grave Is No Bar to My Call, pg 662 (paper back)
Hawkwing clapped the sniffer on the shoulder. "Sometimes the Wheel adds to our number, friend. Perhaps you will find yourself among us, one day." Hurin sat up as if he had been offered a crown. Hawkwing bowed formally from his saddle to Rand. "With your permission...Lord Rand. Trumpeter, will you give us music on the Horn? Fitting that the Horn of Valere should sing us into battle. Bannerman, will you advance?"
*****
So, Mat is the Trumpeter and Perrin is the Bannerman. The Heroes of the Horn had to follow the Dragon and the banner into battle. They didn't follow Mat.
*****
pg 661-662
"The Pattern weaves itself around our necks like halters," Artur Hawkwing said. "You are here. The banner is here. The weave of this moment is set. We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon."...
*****
I retract my statement that Mat could always be the Trumpeter/Hornsounder because of this...
*****
pg 664, Rand is facing Ishy
"You pitiful wretch. You have sounded the Horn of Valere. You are linked to it, now. Do you think the worms of the White Tower will ever release you, now? They will put chains around your neck so heavy you will never cut them."
Rand was so surprised he felt it inside the void. He doesn't know everything. He doesn't know!...
*****
If Mat always sounded the HoV then I don't think Ishy would have thought Rand did. Maybe some of this is foreshadow for Mat and Perrin being added to the HoV.
Satin alEllien Moonsong: 2004-05-20
i have just got say that i agree wholeheartedly with anubis one this one, his objections are always so professional, and Mat IS bound to the Horn but is NOT Aemon.
PS - Why do most replies seem to have LOADS of typos? it only takes a sec to chick :P
Elder Haman: 2004-05-22
Ummm, I don't know about your assesment of bannermen as being little more than flag holders. In some armies that is what they are, but in other armies they are actually considered trusted officers and are given positions of great authority.
In RJ's world: There has been quite alot of references to bannermen and their duties. They seem to be the non-commisioned officers (sargents) of the time. While not of the "noble," educated officer class, they appear to be quite capable as leaders as well as fighters.
matoyak: 2004-08-03
Mat is ta'veren, so shouldn't he draw even more of the old blood than usual? no i'm not a mats luck and memories are due to his ta'verend only person.:) No mat is not Aemon. Yes he is bound to the horn still. i for one think that mat will be one of the new heros of the horn. lets look at why shall we?
1)he is ta'veren
2)he will marry the dauter of the nine moons who is a direct decendant of artur hawkwing and can be taught to channel (tuon can be taught to channel i mean)
3)he has gone to both of the 'finn's places
4)he is one of two 'wetlanders' to go to rhuidean.
5)he has been given memories that help him greatly in battle
6)he has a medallion that disables weaves that are aimed directly at him
7)mat has great skill at that spear-sword of his (asha'andrea?) (in reality it is alot alike a japaneas weapon called a naginata)
8)he has been killed by a forsaken and been brought back to life by balefire.
9)has carried a dagger from shadar logoth (SP?) and not died (yes he was injured badly, but that just adds to my point)
10)will be involved in the making of gunpowder and cannons
11)he will help prove to the seanchan that sul'dam can channel
12)(wow 12 already!?) he has blown the horn of valere.
13)will be instrumental at TG (as well as perrin)
14)with those memories he will probably become a great general. (or whatever they're called)
15)has phenominable luck
and just look at the rest of what he has been through. there are probably many more things that i've forgotten.
so what do y'all think. thougts for doughnuts.
Anubis: 2004-08-04
Irony at its finest:
*PS - Why do most replies seem to have LOADS of typos? it only takes a sec to chick :P *
Wompat: 2005-08-16
somewhere fairly early in TDR,I think around the time Lanfear visits him, Mat makes the comment that he would like to go back to the Two Rivers adn see his father. I think he will go back with the Band and be Perrin's general after TG.
While there is evidence for him being Aemon, and for kings being generals, i.e. Artur Hawkwing the HIGH KING conquered most of the known world after defeating Guiare Amalasan, I think it more likely that Mat is Aemon's general or the founder of the Band reborn.
robertcroome: 2006-06-30
The chance of this is very slim if you are right about the soul being unchanged, Aemon is a warder and Eldrene the Amyrilian Seat (as found out from robert jordans quiz) what chance of his dislike of Aes Sedia, Further your point 4 and 7 dont match and he shouted his dislike for Aes Sedia unconcesis
warick: 2006-11-03
First of all, this is the first time I have heard that Eldrene is the Amyrlin, which doesn't make sense. I don't know who the Amyrlin was butEldrene was in the City of Manetheren, the Amyrlin betrayed him by not sending an army from the White tower, so they are two different people.
Secondly Mat is not Aemon. There are many convincing reasons above, but the clincher for me is this- I believe that when a person dies and is reborn, they maintain many of the same character traits, and even though the personality won't always be exactly the same, you should be able to tell gross differences like the fact that Aemon is known for his courage. Mat is not cowardly by any means, but he attempts to avoid fights/battles a lot of times because he has an intense need for self preservation. Perrin on the other hand (I'm not saying he is Aemon reborn, but he could be) is one of the most courageous people in the series, most recently he made an assault on one of the largest groups of Shaido (yes I know he had a considerable army.) Plus he has traits that cause nobles to follow him, even though he is a young country bumpkin (whcih can be partially attributed to being taveren, but it is rarely mentioned which makes me think it is more his personality than being taveren)
JakOShadows: 2006-11-04
warick:
The thing that makes me believe that Mat is Aemon reborn is when he starts spouting old tongue at Shadar Logoth in tEotW. And also, if you notice how he likes to make decisions or plan battles, it fits with how Aemon was characterized in the fall of Manetheran. In tDR, if you look at the flashback, there is a particular emphasis on how Aemon liked to play the odds and take risks with battle strategies. Mat tends to do the same thing. It could be coincidence, but to me that really sells the idea to me. But it definitely isn't provable at this point, so I won't say that your wrong. I just think my case is a bit stronger than your making it out to be.
Traveller: 2006-11-05
Warick:
I know where you are coming from with the whole, Mat is not cowardly but prefers self-preservation thing, but the thing with Mat is he always says and thinks that kind of thing, but doesn't tend to run away from stuff. He tries not to do overly heroic acts that prove his courage- like perrin going back to the Two Rivers to be hanged but save everyone else (which was a plain stupid idea)- but he always finds himself risking his life doing things to save the girls or help Rand- which I think is VERY courageous even though he seems to think himself cowardly.
BigBlade: 2006-11-06
I like the idea of Mat being Aemon reborn but if RJ was going to do this I dont think he would revolve the rebirth of Manetheren around Perrin like he has so far.
vardene: 2006-11-09
really all that the theory can prove is that mat has aemon's memories. He could have gained them after the horn summonmed the heroes(afterall the heroes of the horn have to be somewhere) or the memories may just have come as a backlash of the healing and the fact that mat heard of aemon from moiraine.
Mat's luck may be due to nthe ability to channel as well. The innkeeper's cat reacted strangely when he tossed the dice in TDR. I dont believe this theory, not now anyway.
Callandor: 2006-11-10
**Mat's luck may be due to nthe ability to channel as well. The innkeeper's cat reacted strangely when he tossed the dice in TDR. I dont believe this theory, not now anyway.**
Mat is not a channeler. A male channeler cannot handle an a'dam without getting a jolt of saidin -- as we saw with Rand in Seanchan. Mat's handled a'dam several times, just by itself as well as freeing those chained by them. No jolt mentioned in any instances. Mat's not a channeler.
hashpond420: 2006-11-12
umm, about the mats memories thing, i don't think what the aelfinn gave him were his own or his lifelines for the simple fact that he remembers fighting against and alongside hawkin many, MANY times. I dont know how old hawking really was but i doubt he was old enough to allow for the same spirit to be reborn many, many times in his own lifetime.
if they are mats own mems then he would have had to die at an early age every time and that still only accounts for 5 or 6 lifespans.
plus there is no evidence to support the idea of someone being reborn as soon as they die.
My personal opinion on mats Aelfinn provided memories is they belonged to people who had passed into the aelfinn world before.
vardene: 2006-11-14
callandor,
for all we know, the jolt only happens to those who have started channeling already, remember the way it works on suldam.Plus, Mat had the goose bumps that men who can channel feel when saidar is held nearby.He also resisted Lanfear's attempt to compel him.(all in TDR). To stay with the point, the memories being there do not make Mat and Aemon the same person or if Aemon resided in mat's head, we would see the struggle for prominence as between LTT/Rand.
JakOShadows: 2006-11-15
vardene:
Technically, no we wouldn't because Mat doesn't channel. The taint is what allows Rand to have LTT's memories, so Mat could be Aemon reborn and just now know it since he doesn't channel. And where did you see Lanfear try and compel Mat in tDR. I don't remember that at all, or him feeling a tingling when saidar was being used. It could be that you just misread the passage or incorrectly interpreted the wording. Because Mat not being shocked by holding the a'dam is pretty strong evidence that he can't channel.
Callandor: 2006-11-15
**for all we know, the jolt only happens to those who have started channeling already, remember the way it works on suldam.Plus, Mat had the goose bumps that men who can channel feel when saidar is held nearby.He also resisted Lanfear's attempt to compel him.(all in TDR).**
Then you're reasoning for saying this is completely voided:
**Mat's luck may be due to nthe ability to channel as well. The innkeeper's cat reacted strangely when he tossed the dice in TDR. I dont believe this theory, not now anyway.**
Potential male channelers do not get this luck -- only active channelers do, as seen in New Spring.
**TITLE: New Spring - The Novel
CHAPTER: Epilogue
It did make a terrible sense. Men who could channel seldom knew what they were doing, at least in the beginning. At first, they often just seemed to be lucky. Events favored them, and frequently, like the blacksmith, they rose to prominence with unexpected suddenness. Siuan was right. The Black Ajah had begun a slaughter. "But they do not know to look for a boychild," Moiraine said. As hard as she had to be. "An infant will show no signs." Not until he was sixteen at the earliest. No man on record had begun channeling before that, and some not for ten years or more later. "We have more time than we thought. Not enough to be careless, though. Any sister can be Black. I think Cadsuane is. They know others are looking. If one of Tamra's searchers locates the boy and they find her with him, or if they decide to question one of them instead of killing her as soon as it is convenient..." Siuan was staring at her. "We still have the task," Moiraine told her.**
Two things are made quite clear: it's the appearance of luck in what they're doing -- not actual "luck" or ta'vereness; and, no signs are shown until they're actually channeling.
So, if you're going to say Mat has the attributes of a male channeler, but isn't a male channeler yet, it's saying nothing at all. If Mat is not an active channeler, he would not feel the goosebumps of when women channel near him (and I'd like to see you quote that in any case, because I'm quite sure it'd have to be taken out of context). He would not have the "luck" attributed to early male channelers. And in all probability he would not get the jolt by handling the a'dam.
Amazingly, all those conditions are 100% met for sure with another quality: Mat is a non-channeler, not a latent channeler. Much simpler.
Thaco4: 2009-10-29
I think that Mat is the General of the Red Hand reborn. In the stories that we heard the Band never lost a battle until the fall of Manetheren. This implies extraordinary luck. Plus, he remakes the Band.
MatOdin: 2009-10-29
at some point in the book it is said that Mat's previous life saw Aemon fall. It may have been some other king with Aem- in it but I doubt so.
Kolaz: 2009-10-29
While I agree that Mat has Aemon's, or another man of high ranking in Manetheren's armies, memories I don't believe he is Aemon reborn. If he were, wouldn't the Heroes of the Horn recognize him at Falme? Aemon being reborn seems the characteristic of a Hero of the Horn. I think what is going on here is the strength of ancient blood in Randland. Blood is more than what's in your veins. Mat is a direct descendant of someone who survived those armies perhaps, but he is no Aemon.