View Single Post
  #14  
Old 11-25-2012, 03:40 AM
Dom Dom is offline
ReadandFindOut.com
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Montréal - Qc - Canada
Posts: 862
Dom has a brilliant futureDom has a brilliant futureDom has a brilliant futureDom has a brilliant futureDom has a brilliant futureDom has a brilliant futureDom has a brilliant futureDom has a brilliant futureDom has a brilliant futureDom has a brilliant futureDom has a brilliant future
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabadrin View Post
Luc has not told his side of the story to anyone, except possibly Thom
Why Thom? Why would the prince of Andor confide in the house bard of House Trakand? Thom wasn't royal bard under Luc's mother, he served Maighdin Trakand.

Quote:
All we can do for now is to look for cracks in his cover.
Really not sure which "cracks" you're imagining to have seen, let alone what made you conclude it's a cover, and by Luc...

Do you really think Luc, whose soul is for all intent and purpose is successfully cohabiting with Isam's could be fooling Isam? They share thoughts...

Quote:
There is a RAFO on Slayer and the Tower of Ghenjei, confirmation that there is a connection between Slayer and the Finns.
If every RAFO proved the question was relevant and the asker's speculation was right, a whole lot of things that have been debunked or turned irrelevant after being RAFOed by RJ or Brandon earlier would have been true... RJ warned us a few times.. many RAFOs simply means it's intentional we are left to wonder and the author doesn't wish us to know before the answer, true or false, is given in the books. The theories RJ debunked straight out appeared to be theories which annoyed him because we misunderstood stuff he had intended us to understand, or about stuff which RJ didn't intend to have mislead us. There a many examples, but I'll just mention how he hated the "Shai'tan makes people evil" angle, or how he got fed up with the Gaidal=Olver theory, which was probably meant to last 30 sec. as a red herring before we figured out for ourselves it wasn't possible, or how RJ at some point seemed to have become annoyed with Taimandred, likely because it meant tons of readers were no longer looking at his clues about Demandred, and tons of readers were not paying attention anymore to Taim's character development because they saw him as Demandred.

Brandon is perfectly aware Slayer has tried to trap Perrin by faking to enter Ghenjei while actually stepping out of TAR.


Brandon was extremely circumspectsin Q&A about the Finns, and it's pretty obvious there's more about them coming in AMOL (it's already proved true in the prologue, and there's more to come when Rand and Moiraine will meet. LTT has to know a whole deal about Sindhol that Moiraine and us don't know).

And even if Slayer has gone to Eelfinn or Aelfinn (which is possible... but after he's become Slayer and probably has the ability to jump in TAR from within Sindhol to escape the Finn. My hunch would be that Slayer wouldn't go there to bargain but to hunt Finns for sport...), that's no justification for the Eelfinn to have powers RJ gave to the antithesis and equal of the Creator.

Quote:
And we know the trouble the DO went to, trying to make Padan Fain both obedient and independent.
What problems exactly? Fain performed just as expected until he bumped into Mordeth who possessed him.

We don't know for sure Shai'tan was even extensively involved. Some of what happened to Fain was done at the Pit of Doom, but Fain often referred to the DO as Ba'alzamon. It's pretty obvious he can't tell Ishamael and the Dark One apart.

Quote:
I'd say it is beyond the DO:s capacity to create Slayer.
Huh? He's "bonded" Rand and Moridin somehow and they're merging. He's the Lord of Death and can seize souls and also place them in bodies. He can also remove souls from bodies without, seemingly, causing death. RJ also hinted that the DO's ease to seize souls increase with proximity to SG, and Luc died in the Blight...

What Slayer is, and his gifts give all the sings or being right up Shai'tan's alley, and involve powers that so far have been shown as the exclusive domain of the Lord of the Grave...

Shai'tan couldn't make Slayer, but it's within the powers of the Eelfinn? It looks like you've fallen into the trap of turning the creatures of Sindhol into Gods.

There's no hint whatsoever they can perform transmigrations. There are "patterns" to the Finns's powers.


The Finns don't "see" reality like humans do. They perceive dimensions the humans cannot perceive. For one thing they can see the aura of Spirit around humans, see their "life thread" and this perception isn't bound by Time etc. To them emotions is something substantial and "concrete" like matter. Memories/experiences too.

To them the One Power is pretty obviously "visible", and they have found a way to use it which isn't channeling. The clues are all there, the TOM episodes only made it even more obvious. Their use of the OP systematically involves symbols, shapes and materials. E.g. They make their equivalent of "Gateways" by drawing symbols using compatible materials (incl. bronze and or the alloy the Ashan'darei was made of). In their world (incl. the outside of Ghenjei itself) everyone can make these, even visitors.

Symbol/shape, material, color.. what does it remind you of? Ter'angreal, of course. Ter'angreal are made of very specific materials (and for most of them, "alien", ie: not existing naturally in the human world), and often the shape and color are important, and we know they work using matrixes "drilled"/imprinted in the material which for all intent and purpose reproduce a web. Since the "standing flows" have failed, most of them work only by being powered by a channeler with the right flow. Some (not all) using Spirit as their energy source seem to still work for non-channelers (so far they're the only ones proven to work non-channelers, eg: Egwene's ring, the Sindhol portals, Mat's medallion which as a side effect cuts him from TAR and shields his dreams), and the reason for this is most likely because Spirit happens to be the "flow" of sentient souls (the TS is the sum of all souls in Creation in the end... we know everything has a soul, everything has a thread including inanimate matter like rock, and living things like plants - all that energy is "the True Source", Creation itself is the True Source, and the essence of the Creator).

This is why channelers are able to draw/weave Spirit subconsciously in their sleep: it's their own energy from their own soul. Anything else require conscious control. This is why non-channelers also demonstrate Talents which all seem related somehow to Spirit, or are similar to Talents/effects related to Spirit in channelers... Min's Talent (in some way similar to Dreaming and Foretelling), Perrin's "soul bond" to the wolves (in the same family as Warder bonds), Dreamwalking which is a thing or Spirit etc.

My theory why the True Source can't be felt (and thus not reached) in Stedding is because stedding are pockets from another world, and in that world the flows are organized differently, ie: Spirit isn't the flow of sentience, it's rather the flow Trees and Ogier souls are made of.

Birgitte revealed in TOM that it's the Eelfinn or Aelfinn themselves who made the ter'angreal Portals to Sindhol, and who came to the humans to offer them a treaty. Brandon told Tamyrlin that they have vast stores of ter'angreal, and more importantly he started explaining that some things they can do aren't because of their Talents, but because they own ter'angreal that might be able to perform such things (eg: altering the physical appearance of someone).

I think this is because ter'angreal is simply their way to use the OP, a counterpart in their world to channeling, or Singing in the Ogier world: they "see" the threads of energy of which everything is made. It's how they perceive the world. A human sees a rock, they see how the Earth flow forms that rock.

Thus they must understand how each flow relates to the physical world, what matter(s) can stop Fire, or Air, or Spirit etc. If you use a matter Spirit can't pass through, and make an intricate matrix in a lump of a specific shape of that material, you could force the flow to adopt a certain shape, reproduce the equivalent of a weave, flows adopting a specific shape to produce an effect... becoming a pattern or symbol...or an object. The AS do this mentally, controlling the power, I believe the Eelfinn do something similar by drawing shapes/making motions using an object of a specific matter, or letting Spirit go naturally through a specific object in which they've designed a hole-out matrix, forcing the flow to adopt a specific shape, way too complex for an Eelfinn to "draw it" in the air.

IMHO, it's gonna be revealed by LTT in AMOL when he discusses the Finns with Moraine that the Eelfinn and the Aes Sedai of the AOL pooled their knowledge/skills to further develop the art of making ter'angreal, or "weave emulators". The Eelfinn know more about the complex relations of the physical world with the energy that forms everything, the AS had the unique talent to be able to draw the five flows distinctly, thus use the energies of non-sentient souls, not only Spirit. nor only their own soul energy. Obviously (because of the portals to other worlds they made) the Eelfinn can make ter'angreal of their own, but they're probably limited because only channeling is able to produce microcopic and incredibly intricate matrixes, and probably it's the only way as well to "merge" or transmutate many materials as well.

In their simplest form, ter'angreal emulate a weave a channeler can do, to spare him/her having to do the weave. With the Standing Flows to power them, that allowed non-channelers to use the function of those weaves without an Aes Sedai to make it for them, eg: the one to communicate from afar, reproduced with a "callbox".

In their more elaborate form, ter'angreal seem to perform weaves of so extreme a complexity to be beyond the mental capabality of a channeler to from them, or combine together many weaves in a precise manner, to produce extremely complex effects. I believe this second and third categories of ter'angreal were often conceived with active help from the Aelfinn and Eelfinn, because of the need for their different perception of how reality worked.

I think this will prove to be where their "great stores of ter'angreal" come from: by the treaty they kept their experiments/prototypes developped in collaboration with AS, and they are quite able to make some ter'angreal of their own too.. as long as they have a material naturally in their realms, and can create the matrixes through means other than channeling. AS may even have made them "matrix makers". It's very likely they're the ones who made Mat's medallion.

I also have a strong feeling ter'angreal with a relation to "alternate realities", "possible futures", "memories/blood memories" etc. in the series were all designed by the Eelfinn. That would include the arches the AS use to test Accepted, and far more obviously the WO's arches that essentially emulates the Talent of the Aelfinn.

I think the Aes Sedai of Rhuidean made a deal with Eelfinn so they'd make for them the Glass Columns.

Based on the few facts we know from RJ or Brandon about it (eg: it works only for those of Aiel blood), I think this seemingly incredibly complex ter'angreal is connected directly to Sindhol. The Eelfinn or Aelfinn (or both) can see the pattern of someone's life, thus they see that of a person in the ter'angreal. They can track the person's thread to birth, and from there find the thread of the mother/father.. all the way back to a Da'shain ancestor. It's how it determines if the person is or isn't of Da'shain ancestry. If not, the deal is that they do nothing.

If the person is Aiel, the Finns find specific moments determined by their bargain. They give the person in the ter'angreal those specific memories (just as they did with Mat...).

How is all this paid for? The emotions, to begin with... The Aelfinn don't ask for a price, they just enjoy the emotions without the visitor knowing. The Eelfinn are far more greedy... they love to have a physical bit of you to draw the emotions/experience from. It's their price, a blood price. It would be a fair bet, I guess, that the very old Rhuidean Aes Sedai and the Jenn Aiel (including the one named Nakomi) paird for this ter'angreal with their own lives. And to bind the Eelfinn to "operate it"? They feed on the emotions of everyone entering, and by their agreement they get their blood price from every one who fails. How do a WO candidate or Clan Chief candidate fails? Whenever the Finns don't see becoming chiefs or WO in their future. It's not about acceptance - Therava and co. reject the Aiel prophecies and show all signs not to believe what they've seen in the ter'angreal... but they've passed, because they were destined to become WO and chiefs of the corrupted plans, the Pattern needed them. The Eelfinn weed out each and every candidate the WO send who isn't destined to become chief or WO... and come (came, the Portal is now gone) get them as they are in the Glass Columns... not sign remains of those who failed...

We'd need to look no further to puzzle out where those clothes of human leather the Eelfinn have take to wear come from (they can't be 1000 years old - the last era in which the Eelfinn got visitors, they'd have desintegrated): they're the skins of the Aiel who failed the passage in the Glass Columns. For all we know they may get anyone who "vanishes" in similar ter'angreal.. the failed candidates to apprenticeship, and the failed Accepted....

Several clues also points to them also being the makers of the Portal Stones and "masters" (as in "they're the ones who understand them") of the "Worlds of If". The two most important is for the first that the PS also work using specific symbols in a language/alphabet terribly similar to the symbols of the "Red Doorways" and it's also very similar to the way to open a portal into or out of the TOG by tracing a symbol. The second important clue is that RJ let slip in a Q&A about the Finns' powers that the Finns have access to the "Mirror Worlds").

It's even how the Talent of the Aelfinn works, IMO: they can "see" the "Mirror Worlds" dimensions and thus can see all possibilities, and track the one most plausible to happen to a visitor (this is why their answers are so vague... implausible paths are "faded", the likely paths are more "vivid", but there are always choices, and they tell you about those crucial choices. The "answer" isn't a riddle, it's no meant to be understood until the time for a choice comes. Once Rand got his wound by Fain and it started interacting with his TP wound, a choice to Cleanse saidin appeared, and the Aelfinn had provided Rand information to make the right choice. Moiraine will either solve the "riddle" for Rand, as long foreshadowed (it's not about cardinal points. It means the People of the West (Seanchan) and the People of the East (the ill-named Westlanders) must ally "as one", the south and north refer to locations when Westerners and Easterners respectively now gather.. Merrilor and Ebou Dar., so when she tells Rand Mat has gone to attempt to convince the Empress of Seanchan to put aside conquest and come fight the LB he will understand the winning conditions aren't met and he must not Strike at SG yet.

TOM also reinforced the theories suggesting that some Shadowspawn may have Finns genes. Long ago, it was about the fact RJ used the very same wording to describe the way the Aelfinn moved like snakes that he used in the descriptions of Myrddraal, but with TOM it went further as Mat noticed the Eelfinn seemed to use shadows to move around.

Any, this got very long again, but I don't think I had exposed my Sindhol musings on this site yet, and it's relevant to show their connections are to very specific things, in summary it's about a wholly different way to "see" reality, a way to see the "possibilities and choices tying them to the Mirror Worlds, and about a wholly different way to create "patterns" with energy, based on shaping specific matter/symbols/colors to create effects.

Nothing in there suggests they have the sort of powers over soul or life manipulations in the vein of transmigrations RJ always made exclusive to Shai'tan.


And in every POV of Slayer so far, it's always hints about what Shai'tan made of him, what the Great Lord gave him. If he was made by the Eelfinn, RJ would have given us some clues by now.

He's Fain's antithesis in the series in some ways. He's the hound who accepted to be an hound, and the one who sees what the DO made of him as a series of "gifts". His merging with Luc also succeeded. They're "integrated" and functional. Fain/Mordeth is a utter mess, completely mad and unable to tell Fain from Mordeth anymore.

Quote:
Luc was in TAR in Far Madding. Isam was in TAR in Two Rivers because Luc was in the waking world; fair is fair. Then Isam fought Perrin in the Dreamspike episode. Egwene has seen both in TAR.
The one and only time in the whole series we've seen Luc in TAR was in his "home", the Caemlyn palace, and it may be very relevant to that fact, ie: he maybe have become Luc without even noticing he did. Everywhere else he always appeared as Isam.

But in WH he reflected he could be Luc or Isam in both TAR or the RW at will, and sometimes it just seemed to occur, so presumably he's Luc in TAR occasionally.

He wasn't Luc in TAR in Far Madding, he was Isam. He became Luc as he translated himself in the RW.

I'm really puzzled about what makes you believe Luc isn't evil. To hear Isam, Luc is even darker/crueller than him (which is one reason why I believe he might have been captured by Red Veils, turned to the Shadow before he was killed at the Pit and the DO put his soul to cohabit with Isam's in his body) . Luc's the one of the two who hates Perrin the most obsessively.

It's Isam who showed signs of emotions and gave signs he can still feel some empathy. That doesn't make him any less a loyal servant of Shai'tan.

Perrin's nose also doesn't lie, and he said Luc and Isam smell different, but equally wrong, cold, cruel and inhuman.


Quote:
Hopper showing up is a possibility; I thought of predicting Slayer would hand over control of the Darkhounds to Perrin, but I prefer to stay within spitting distance of evidence. Mostly.
Oh my, you really think Slayer isn't evil.

There was never any concrete evidence that Slayer controls/leads the DH or is in any way connected to them. It all comes from combining the facts he kills animals in TAR (and Slayer hates wolves in particular) and the theory (probably right) that the DH in WH hunted Fain, when we know Slayer hunts him too. But nothing concrete tying Slayer and DH ever surfaced. I think the DH hunting Fain in WH were sent by Demandred after Fain derailed his plans in Far Madding, and have nothing to do with Slayer or his mission to track down Fain from Moridin. Demandred had no wish for Fain to come near him in Lugard, or to interfere with his plans there. He sent packs of DH to eliminate him. They never found him, I believe Fain used the Waygate of Aran Mador to move out of the area and moved to the Blight when he got to Shadar Logoth and witnessed he couldn't exit there anymore as its Waygate no longer existed.
Reply With Quote