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Old 11-25-2012, 09:17 PM
Dom Dom is offline
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Montréal - Qc - Canada
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Why Thom? I suggest a connection between Luc and Thom at the end of my first post.
Not what I meant by connections. I meant even some seed of evidence to connect Thom and Luc that way, an awareness of Luc or a reference to events from that time even, anything to justify your notion that Thom is aware the Mantear prince has not really vanished but had secretely returned a few years later to kill the new Queen's husband, and for some mysterious reason Thom never revealed to his Queen and lover Morgase that Luc Mantear was still secretely involved in Andoran politics...

Then you call this "not too far fetched".

Where are the usual clues typical of RJ's style? Where's the apparently innocent thought by Thom suggesting he knows stuff about the Mantears, for instance?

You also miss the obvious, for instance Thom's reaction when Moiraine implied he was behind Taringail's death. You find his reaction "excessive" after all these years, citing justice as if it's the law Thom feared. You seem to forget who Thom was talking to - Taringail's very own half sister and Aes Sedai beside and one of those scheming Damodreds, and that his reactions were more and more alarmed through the scene, because it's exactly the effect Moiraine was working to achieved. As the scene unfolds, Thom is already alarmed that Moiraine seemingly knows too much about his plots to help Rand against the High Lords, and he's extremely worried about her motives for letting him know she knows (eg: does she want to get rid of him by telling Rand what he did?). Then as Moiraine got Thom where she wanted, destabilized, she raised the stakes implying Thom had murdered her half-brother.. missing Moiraine's point which was to connect what he did for the young Morgase to what he was now doing for Rand, and that she disapproved. And he did get Taringail killed - his thoughts when Moiraine brings it up make it abundantly clear, and explains some of his discomfort around Elayne (there's even a "replay" of the TSR scene with Moiraine in TOM. Thom mistakingly believes Elayne knows he's murdered or paid for the murder of Galldrian Riatin).

Thom was shocked, anyone would be for less facing an Aes Sedai in that situation, and even worse when she's the sister of the victim. He countered by revealing he knew her exact connection to Taringail and implied she hid this from him on purpose. In other words, he told Moiraine he believed, or implied it, she was bringing all this stuff up as a prelude to exacting a Damodred revenge for Taringail's murder... and he tried to destabilize her by revealing he had reasoned out she was secretly involved with Rand with support from someone highly placed in the WT - in other words he told her "I'm not the only one with secrets that could be exposed".

Moiraine totally ignored what he reasoned out about her and the WT, that was dangerous and she couldn't let him see he hit the bull's eye with that, and she rather defused Thom's speculation that she wanted to exact revenge for Taringail, by letting him know indirectly she had not hid her House from him but simply never used it, then letting him know she had distanced herself from a House that in her opinion fully deserved its bad reputation even before the Aiel War and it became worse since. It's not Barthanes she meant, this was a comment about Taringail: Damodreds in Laman's days were bad, she thought her brother even worse. In other words, Moiraine told Thom he was quite wrong to believe she was seeking revenge for Taringail, that she considered Taringail got what he deserved. She was also telling him subtlety she disapproved of his methods by disapproving of her House's (which were much the same...)

That upset Thom even more, he stopped playing Daes'daemar with her move for move and irritably demanded bluntly what she wanted of him.

And she told him, as bluntly as a Cairhienin can: she wanted him to go to Tanchico, ie: she wanted him to leave Rand's circle.

QUOTE]Cracks in his cover? I explored what I see as the most important ones in the second half of my first post.[/QUOTE]

Again, not what I meant. I meant where are the clues in his POVs or scenes that Slayer isn't the dutiful servant of the Shadow he appears to be (he's not overly happy of how things have changed since the Chosen are around and they order him around, but he bears it and loves his hunts in TAR). His POVs show both Luc and Isam to be very nasty/evil.

Some of your interpretations do no match what happened either. E.g.: you portray Lord Luc as genuinely helping the Two Rivers people until Verin showed up and he stepped back.

The events don't support your interpretation. Luc wasn't helping, he was herding cattle. He kept people gathered in small groups at isolated farms instead of advising them to regroup in the villages, and scouts for the Shadowspawn movements. He basically had everyone gathering in small groups he knew where to find, and as they didn't leave their farms anymore and didn't scout they had no news but his to rely on. It's when Perrin destroyed his plans by gathering everyone in the villages that Isam fetched enough to mount a big attack.

My whole point is that I belive Slayer is working undercover. I am entitled to argue from that position without having to repeat my core argument in every post.
You've not brought a single example of clue/slip from his POV supporting your interpretation that Slayer is serving the Light "undercover". The picture of the man from his POV support the opposite: he's a cold, bloodthirsty killer, who rejoice in reminding himself of the details of his kills, in the act of taking life itself (and who loves to make the euphoria last, by killing people with his knives), and who revels in gratuitous cruelty. He's got the profile of a serial killer.


He always liked to see the people he killed, after if he could not during. He had especially enjoyed those two Aes Sedai in the Stone of Tear. The incredulity on their faces when he appeared out of thin air, the horror when they realized he had not come to save them, were treasured memories. That had been Isam, not him, but the memories were none the less prized for that. Neither of them got to kill an Aes Sedai very often.
By the way, in your original post you implied maybe Luc/Isam didn't share thoughts and memories... the previous quote disapprove that.

With the poison, it was unlikely either would have had the strength to shout loudly enough to be heard outside the room, but he wanted to make this kill his own in a way that poison could not grant. Soon they stopped twitching when he thrust a blade between ribs
Your "Heroes of the Light" were having a massive kick out of killing a man they believe was the Dragon reborn.

And when his Chosen patron told him to stop hunting Rand for the time being, he thought:

It really was a pity. He had rather looked forward to killing his nephew and the wench. But if there was time to pass, hunting was always a pleasure. He became Isam. Isam liked killing wolves even more than Luc did.
What trouble did DO go to, making Fain what he was before Shadar Logoth? Fain has a great deal to say about that. Compare with how the Finns repaired Mat's memories.
Nice sophism. It's much the same as remarking the DO struggled to set the seasons in place, what the Finns did to Mat seemed easy in comparison, therefore the Finns are more likely to be responsible for vermin and diseases than the DO.

And how can you be sure what the Finns did to Mat was easy? He spent over a week in Sindhol, lost consciousness after concluding his bargain, and regained consciousness hung on Avendesora outside their realm days later...

They didn't heal his memory one bit, they gave him collected memories from other men that he would need to fulfill his destiny.

I know of no evidence DO had anything to do with the bond between Rand and Moridin.
There's no hard evidence, but the TP seemed to act with "a mind of its own" at Moridin's surprise. Graendal commented in TOM that it's fairly common for TP weaves to have unanticipated side-effects.

I stay out of trying to figure out how the Finns do what they do.
That's fine, but that's how you end up with weird notions such as the making of Slayer being "more up the Finns's alley" than the Dark One's, when everything points to Slayer having been made by the DO.
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