Balance and Order, Laughter and Tears in AMoL

[Tamyrlin]

I've always disliked the "laughter and tears" theories (at least the ones I can remember), which were largely based on these three quotes:

TITLE: Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 41 - A Crown of Swords
He tugged the stocking the rest of the way up. "Do you have a viewing?" Min sat back on her heels, folded her arms beneath her breasts and gave him a firm look. After a moment, she decided it was not working and sighed. "It's Cadsuane. She is going to teach you something, you and the Asha'man. All the Asha'man, I mean. It's something you have to learn, but I don't know what it is, except that none of you will like learning it from her. You aren't going to like it at all."

TITLE: Path of Daggers
CHAPTER: 12 - New Alliances
Cadsuane drew breath. A chance she would have scoured anyone else for taking. But she was not anyone else, and sometimes chances had to be taken. "The boy confuses them," she said. "He needs to be strong, and makes himself harder. Too hard, already, and he will not stop until he is stopped. He has forgotten how to laugh except in bitterness; there are no tears left in him. Unless he finds laughter and tears again, the world faces disaster. He must learn that even the Dragon Reborn is flesh. If he goes to Tarmon Gai'don as he is, even his victory may be as dark as his defeat."

TITLE: Path of Daggers
CHAPTER: 12 - New Alliances
"I offer you water oath," she said solemnly, picking up one of the cups. "By this, we are bound as one, to teach Rand al'Thor laughter and tears." She sipped, and Cadsuane imitated her.

The bit about Min seeing that Cadsuane would teach Rand and all of the Asha'man something they wouldn't like...never made much sense to me, as in, I never read a theory that fit well as to what it meant.

And now that we have seen Rand's reintegration, I wonder if we've seen the lesson be taught through how Cadsuane pushed Rand, forcing him into the moment of crisis he had with Tam, pushing him to the brink. Brandon suggests we have seen part of it, which would seem to confirm this:

INTERVIEW: Nov 15th, 2009
TGS Signing Report - Freelancer (Paraphrased)

QUESTION
Has Cadsuane met Min's vision regarding the lesson she must teach Rand and the Asha'man, which they won't like one bit?

BRANDON SANDERSON
Part of it.

FREELANCER
(That strongly suggests that the "laughter and tears" connection is valid.)

And then I was reading this in TEOTW...which finally made sense of Laughter and Tears for me:

TITLE: Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 36 - Web of the Pattern
"Yes, the groves. The trees. Only a few of the Great Trees, of course, towering to the sky to keep memories of the stedding fresh." His chair groaned as he shifted forward, gesturing with his hands, one of which still held the book. His eyes were brighter than ever, and his ears almost quivered. "Mostly they used the trees of the land and the place. You cannot make the land go against itself. Not for long; the land will rebel. You must shape the vision to the land, not the land to the vision. In every grove was planted every tree that would grow and thrive in that place, each balanced against the next, each placed to complement the others, for the best growing, of course, but also so that the balance would sing in the eye and the heart. Ah, the books spoke of groves to make Elders weep and laugh at the same time, groves to remain green in memory forever."

Loial is speaking about Groves in a very, "jordan speaking to the reader" kind of way, which I love, because Rand is so confused as to why Loial goes off on this tangent, as Loial is giving us the very explanation of this viewing that Min has six books later.

Balance, shaping the vision to the land, not the land to the vision. Order, trees thriving in their own place, complementing others. This Balance would balance the eye and the heart (and this would be a great quote for the Eye Motif discussions we've been having.

So that being said, I translate it to mean that Cadsuane would teach him the importance of Balance and Order; now, I'd like to know how much of this was purposeful on her part or how much of the what he had to learn would come as a factor of her methods.

Now, considering she has been marginalized a bit, how will she help teach this to all of the Asha'man? Is this a guarantee that Rand will send Cadsuane to the Black Tower?

Thoughts? Just meant to be an open discussion, but I'm almost completely sure the connection of Laughter and Tears is to Loial's comments in TEOTW.

[Dragon Thief]

No deep thoughts at the moment, but I wonder if, instead of balance and order, it's just Balance?

Isn't that what Laughter and Tears are to each other? Happiness and Sadness, Life and Death, Good and Evil, Light and Dark, Saidin and Saidar, etc.

After all, the goal isn't to destroy the Dark One - it's to imprison him, so that the Wheel can restore balance as it sees fit.

[Davian93]

Originally Posted by Dragon Thief

No deep thoughts at the moment, but I wonder if, instead of balance and order, it's just Balance?

Isn't that what Laughter and Tears are to each other? Happiness and Sadness, Life and Death, Good and Evil, Light and Dark, Saidin and Saidar, etc.

After all, the goal isn't to destroy the Dark One - it's to imprison him, so that the Wheel can restore balance as it sees fit.

That makes sense. Maybe part of the lesson is that Rand needed to realize that he cant destroy the DO, but he can restore the prison and the balance as you note.


Also, on Tam's original point on Loial explaining it. That fits in quite well with the fact that RJ supposedly had the final scene of the book written even when he was doing tEotW. It would be quite fitting that he put that hint/answer in the very first book like that and had Loial (the theoretical write of the entire history) as the voice of the author so to speak.

[Tamyrlin]

Originally Posted by Dragon Thief

No deep thoughts at the moment, but I wonder if, instead of balance and order, it's just Balance?

Isn't that what Laughter and Tears are to each other? Happiness and Sadness, Life and Death, Good and Evil, Light and Dark, Saidin and Saidar, etc.

After all, the goal isn't to destroy the Dark One - it's to imprison him, so that the Wheel can restore balance as it sees fit.

His explanation seems to suggest that the perfect kind of Balance requires a specific Order, where it isn't the same trees in each grove, but the right trees planted in the right order, would create the right Balance to "so that the balance would sing in the eye and the heart."

As in, I think this has something to do with fixing the Pattern, and healing the Bore.

[Davian93]

Originally Posted by Tamyrlin

His explanation seems to suggest that the perfect kind of Balance requires a specific Order, where it isn't the same trees in each grove, but the right trees planted in the right order, would create the right Balance to "so that the balance would sing in the eye and the heart."

As in, I think this has something to do with fixing the Pattern, and healing the Bore.

Perhaps it goes back to Singing as the possible way to fix the Pattern/Seal the Prison then...

[fionwe1987]

I like it. But balance in what way? Here's a guess:

The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade.

I think Cadsuane will be instrumental in making Rand and the Asha'man accept that the men must also become Aes Sedai, and this is the only way the future (with respect to the Seanchan, which we know from Avi's visions can be disastrous) will not have the Seanchan ruling the world.

I don't think the Asha'man will like it, and if Egwene's opposition sours Rand's plans in aMoL, he may not like it either.

[Davian93]

Originally Posted by fionwe1987

I like it. But balance in what way? Here's a guess:

The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade.

I think Cadsuane will be instrumental in making Rand and the Asha'man accept that the men must also become Aes Sedai, and this is the only way the future (with respect to the Seanchan, which we know from Avi's visions can be disastrous) will not have the Seanchan ruling the world.

I don't think the Asha'man will like it, and if Egwene's opposition sours Rand's plans in aMoL, he may not like it either.

Your very quote goes against that idea. The Ashaman wont become Aes Sedai, they'll stay Ashaman (literally "Guardians" to the Aes Sedai "Servants They will likely have a similar role to Aes Sedai where they dont rule nations but they will be a unique organization per that Foretelling.

[fionwe1987]

Originally Posted by Davian93

Your very quote goes against that idea. The Ashaman wont become Aes Sedai, they'll stay Ashaman (literally "Guardians" to the Aes Sedai "Servants They will likely have a similar role to Aes Sedai where they dont rule nations but they will be a unique organization per that Foretelling.

Not at all. The Prophesy is basically saying that balance will be brought to the "Servants" by the Guardians.

Basically, the Aes Sedai as they are are an imbalanced group. Their Brothers were not allowed membership for 3000 years because of the Dark One's work. The thematic core of the series is that the gender imbalance is wrong, and a legacy of the Dark One. Rand has changed the need for that by cleansing the taint from saidin.

Tel'aran'rhiod has been shaping itself to hint to Egwene that the old order must go. First, Need takes her to a Tinker camp where she comes to the realization that she will live her life and not let it be consumed by being an Aes Sedai (basically exactly what Nynaeve told her in ToM). Then, it showed her the ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai dominating the rose window in the Hall of the Tower, foreshadowing the coming together of the Flame and the Fang (unity between Rand and Egwene, but also among male and female channelers).

Then there's the huge Red (!) flag of Pevara and Androl, and their role in the BT conflict, as well as the fact that Egwene freed Logain at considerable personal risk, that the new Amyrlin, Keeper and Mistress of Novices are a Green, a Red
and a Yellow (the colors of life). Add to that that pretty soon, most of the near-legendary Aes Sedai alive will soon be married, and you can see that the White Tower will be a very different place. One where the isolation from the world is ended, and where men are Aes Sedai too.

In that context, it may be Cadsuane's role, as the greatest of the "old guard", but also the most pragmatic, to make these two factions work together. She already commanded the first mix-gender channeling task force in 3000 years. It may well be that Cadsuane will live a long life having to mediate among the new male and female Aes Sedai, a task Rand and Egwene may foist on her. It fits right with her character, neatly slots into the impending return of the male Aes Sedai, and the viewing that she will teach something to all the Asha'man.

[Master Ablar]

Originally Posted by Davian93

Your very quote goes against that idea. The Ashaman wont become Aes Sedai, they'll stay Ashaman (literally "Guardians" to the Aes Sedai "Servants They will likely have a similar role to Aes Sedai where they dont rule nations but they will be a unique organization per that Foretelling.

I have a hard time seeing them decide to reunite right after the Last Battle anyway. There's 3000 years of hate and mistrust between them. Even the Last Battle won't make that dissappear. The Aes Sedai are definitely not in a place where they'll accept the Ashaman as their equals in anyway. And the Ashaman have no reason to want to become Aes Sedai either. They're quite attached to who they are, quite proud. If neither wants to reunite, then they won't. At the moment it might not even be in the Ashaman's interest to do so. The BT is something completely new, which won't be burdened with the outdated laws and customs of the WT. Furthermore joining the WT would make it look like the Aes Sedai have tamed them. The BT has unrivaled potential right now. I doubt they'll just throw that away. And there's no way they'll cut their lives in half by swearing oaths. Besides there's no proof that the two groups have to reunite before the Age of Legends comes again.

Originally Posted by Grig

Err...wasn't the lesson that they are men, not weapons? You know, the hugely significant epiphany Rand came to, and gave orders (to Naeff, I think) to tell the other Asha'man about?

Why would they dislike learning that?

[fionwe1987]

Originally Posted by Master Ablar

I have a hard time seeing them decide to reunite right after the Last Battle anyway. There's 3000 years of hate and mistrust between them. Even the Last Battle won't make that dissappear. The Aes Sedai are definitely not in a place where they'll accept the Ashaman as their equals in anyway. And the Ashaman have no reason to want to become Aes Sedai either. They're quite attached to who they are, quite proud. If neither wants to reunite, then they won't. At the moment it might not even be in the Ashaman's interest to do so. The BT is something completely new, which won't be burdened with the outdated laws and customs of the WT. Furthermore joining the WT would make it look like the Aes Sedai have tamed them. The BT has unrivaled potential right now. I doubt they'll just throw that away. And there's no way they'll cut their lives in half by swearing oaths. Besides there's no proof that the two groups have to reunite before the Age of Legends comes again.

You're forgetting the Black Tower is tainted. It is made of Shayol Ghul rock, and the headquarters of a Darkfriend. That association isn't going to go away anytime soon.

Plus, it is soon to be rent in fire and blood. If you think the Asha'man who remain, the good ones who didn't follow Taim, will erect a black stone monolith on top of one that was made from Shayol Ghul rock, you can forget it. When the BT story is done, the good Asha'man are going to want nothing to do with it. And if Taim's Asha'man go out and cause massive damage in the LB, they may not want much to do much with the name Asha'man either.

Originally Posted by Master Ablar

The taint may have dissappeared but the hate, fear, mistrust, and prejudice have not. It'll take some time for those to be forgotten.

The Aes Sedai don't hate male channelers, the Red Ajah does. And they just had a fourth of their membership revealed as Darkfriends and are politically very weak now, not to mention purposeless.

As for mistrust, fear and prejudice... that's exactly what the Ajah's felt for each other under Elaida. You don't see signs of that now, do you? And the Aes Sedai also hated Wilders. Now they've made a huge deal with them... Things change. Especially when the world itself is threatened. And the Aes Sedai are freshly infused with hundreds of women who've not been indoctrinated. When they see the great working relationships the bonded Asha'man and Aes Sedai have, the "old guard" are going to have to shut up. At the "dawn of a new Age", they aren't going to spend too long being obstacles to the inevitable.

That wasn't the ancient symbol. It showed her the flame and underneat it the fang. They were not united in a circle like the ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai.

Then why did Egwene immediately think of the Dragon and the Amyrlin ruling Tar Valon together?

Those cases are the minority, they don't change the overall opinion of either the Aes Sedai or the Ashaman. Logain may be thankfull to Egwene but he's not a fool, he knows what most Aes Sedai think.

He does? Tell that to Gabrielle then. The point with Egwene and Logain's past is that they have a basis to establish a working relationship. Just like the Wise One's, despite their distrust and contempt for the AS, agreed to make a deal with them because they knew and trusted Egwene, so can Logain.

And the comments in the BT definitely don't show the Ashaman having a positive opinion of the Aes Sedai. The cases of Flinn and Naeff are encouraging, as well as Androl and Pevara deciding to work together, but the when the Last Battle passes and the danger is gone, the Ashaman and Aes Sedai will have no longer be forced to work together.

No, but when they work together to save the world, they'll kind of find it hard to stop. There will be too many personal relationships formed, too many people wedded to the idea of a united Aes Sedai community of men and women for anyone to completely put a stop to it. Will there be no politics on the male-female lines? Of course there will. But once they establish a working relationship where they're likely going to save each others backs, when they daily get to see the amazing things that they can do when they combine their powers together, they're going to find it hard to give that up.

Also, who are the legendary Aes Sedai apart from Cadsuane and Moiraine?

Egwene, Nynaeve, Siuan, Elayne?

I do think that Cadsuane will have a role a sort of facillitator between the two groups. She's well place to do so when you consider her past with male channellers. I imagine she'll convince the Ashaman that they have to work with the Aes Sedai to win the Last Battle, which the Ashaman are unlikely to care for.

I'm fairly sure mediating among the male and female Aes Sedai is going to be exactly the job Egwene and Rand will foist on her. It should be hilarious to watch.

[Master Ablar]

Originally Posted by fionwe1987

Basically, the Aes Sedai as they are are an imbalanced group. Their Brothers were not allowed membership for 3000 years because of the Dark One's work. The thematic core of the series is that the gender imbalance is wrong, and a legacy of the Dark One. Rand has changed the need for that by cleansing the taint from saidin.

The taint may have dissappeared but the hate, fear, mistrust, and prejudice have not. It'll take some time for those to be forgotten.

Originally Posted by fionwe1987

Then, it showed her the ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai dominating the rose window in the Hall of the Tower, foreshadowing the coming together of the Flame and the Fang (unity between Rand and Egwene, but also among male and female channelers).

That wasn't the ancient symbol. It showed her the flame and underneat it the fang. They were not united in a circle like the ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai.

Originally Posted by fionwe1987

Then there's the huge Red (!) flag of Pevara and Androl, and their role in the BT conflict, as well as the fact that Egwene freed Logain at considerable personal risk, that the new Amyrlin, Keeper and Mistress of Novices are a Green, a Red
and a Yellow (the colors of life). Add to that that pretty soon, most of the near-legendary Aes Sedai alive will soon be married, and you can see that the White Tower will be a very different place. One where the isolation from the world is ended, and where men are Aes Sedai too.

Those cases are the minority, they don't change the overall opinion of either the Aes Sedai or the Ashaman. Logain may be thankfull to Egwene but he's not a fool, he knows what most Aes Sedai think. And the comments in the BT definitely don't show the Ashaman having a positive opinion of the Aes Sedai. The cases of Flinn and Naeff are encouraging, as well as Androl and Pevara deciding to work together, but the when the Last Battle passes and the danger is gone, the Ashaman and Aes Sedai will have no longer be forced to work together.

Also, who are the legendary Aes Sedai apart from Cadsuane and Moiraine?

Originally Posted by fionwe1987

In that context, it may be Cadsuane's role, as the greatest of the "old guard", but also the most pragmatic, to make these two factions work together. She already commanded the first mix-gender channeling task force in 3000 years. It may well be that Cadsuane will live a long life having to mediate among the new male and female Aes Sedai, a task Rand and Egwene may foist on her. It fits right with her character, neatly slots into the impending return of the male Aes Sedai, and the viewing that she will teach something to all the Asha'man.

I do think that Cadsuane will have a role a sort of facillitator between the two groups. She's well place to do so when you consider her past with male channellers. I imagine she'll convince the Ashaman that they have to work with the Aes Sedai to win the Last Battle, which the Ashaman are unlikely to care for.

[EvilChani]

Originally Posted by Master Ablar

That wasn't the ancient symbol. It showed her the flame and underneat it the fang. They were not united in a circle like the ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai.

And, unfortunately, this seems to indicate that the Aes Sedai will rule over the Asha'man (if they were equals, the symbols would be side by side). This fits with the idea that all Asha'man should be bonded as Warder-slaves, which may be what Cadsuane ends up forcing on the Asha'man - "No one will ever accept you until they see you are safe, and the only way to do that is to allow the Aes Sedai to bond you as Warders. Maybe, after a time, channeling men can 'earn' the right to remain unbonded, but you must submit to Tower authority either way. Get over it, get on your knees, and swear fealty to a sister or you'll be forced to do so."

I hate it, but I think this is where things are headed. All the men will be bonded unless they run, which I could see Logain doing (he isn't the type to allow a woman to control him or the type to swear to be a mindless slave to some biatch for the rest of his miserable life). Egwene will never accept men as equals to women, it's just not in her nature, and Cadsuane has already stated outright in the text that she thinks all of the Asha'man should be bonded and 'tamed' like Merise has done with that pansy ass Jahar ("Go to the corner Jahar! I'll beat you, Jahar!" Blah!). If I were an Asha'man, I'd run or die first before I let one of those obnoxious, controlling bitches bond me as a slave.

[Davian93]

Originally Posted by EvilChani

And, unfortunately, this seems to indicate that the Aes Sedai will rule over the Asha'man (if they were equals, the symbols would be side by side). This fits with the idea that all Asha'man should be bonded as Warder-slaves, which may be what Cadsuane ends up forcing on the Asha'man - "No one will ever accept you until they see you are safe, and the only way to do that is to allow the Aes Sedai to bond you as Warders. Maybe, after a time, channeling men can 'earn' the right to remain unbonded, but you must submit to Tower authority either way. Get over it, get on your knees, and swear fealty to a sister or you'll be forced to do so."

I hate it, but I think this is where things are headed. All the men will be bonded unless they run, which I could see Logain doing (he isn't the type to allow a woman to control him or the type to swear to be a mindless slave to some biatch for the rest of his miserable life). Egwene will never accept men as equals to women, it's just not in her nature, and Cadsuane has already stated outright in the text that she thinks all of the Asha'man should be bonded and 'tamed' like Merise has done with that pansy ass Jahar ("Go to the corner Jahar! I'll beat you, Jahar!" Blah!). If I were an Asha'man, I'd run or die first before I let one of those obnoxious, controlling bitches bond me as a slave.

That idea doesnt really fit in with the Guardians balancing the Servants...balance denotes equality, not subservience.

[suttree]

Originally Posted by Davian93

That idea doesnt really fit in with the Guardians balancing the Servants...balance denotes equality, not subservience.

Yup, I can't see the scenario EC presents coming about...

[Master Ablar]

Originally Posted by fionwe1987

You're forgetting the Black Tower is tainted. It is made of Shayol Ghul rock, and the headquarters of a Darkfriend. That association isn't going to go away anytime soon.

The whole Black Tower or just Taim's palace?

The Ashaman don't exactly have a good reputation already do they? I doubt it getting a little worse will make them decide to give up who they are.

Originally Posted by fionwe1987

Plus, it is soon to be rent in fire and blood. If you think the Asha'man who remain, the good ones who didn't follow Taim, will erect a black stone monolith on top of one that was made from Shayol Ghul rock, you can forget it. When the BT story is done, the good Asha'man are going to want nothing to do with it. And if Taim's Asha'man go out and cause massive damage in the LB, they may not want much to do much with the name Asha'man either.

If Taim's Ashaman go out and do massive damage then they're not Ashaman. The Ashaman who was with Ituralde made it clear that any men who fought with the shadow was no Ashaman. Why would the Ashaman bend to the public opinion of them? As for being rent in fire and blood, that's rather vague. Is it the whole BT, parts of it, or just Taim's palace? If nothing else they can just rebuild it. Being Ashaman actually gave them a purpose. They're not going to let Taim take that away from them.

Originally Posted by fionwe1987

The Aes Sedai don't hate male channelers, the Red Ajah does. And they just had a fourth of their membership revealed as Darkfriends and are politically very weak now, not to mention purposeless.

The Aes Sedai in the rebel camp didn't seem to have a very good opinion of male channellers. The Aes Sedai don't like male channellers any more than the rest of the population. If anything they like them less. And they definitely don't see them as equals.

Originally Posted by fionwe1987

As for mistrust, fear and prejudice... that's exactly what the Ajah's felt for each other under Elaida. You don't see signs of that now, do you? And the Aes Sedai also hated Wilders. Now they've made a huge deal with them... Things change. Especially when the world itself is threatened.

They didn't hate wilders, they just looked down upon them. And I doubt the opinion of the majority of the Aes Sedai has changed all that much. As for the Ajah's it was recent, and to a far lesser extent then with male channellers. You don't see signs of it now because Egwene told them all they were acting like fools. Egwene's opinion of male channellers is no different than that of the rest of the Aes Sedai's.

Originally Posted by fionwe1987

And the Aes Sedai are freshly infused with hundreds of women who've not been indoctrinated. When they see the great working relationships the bonded Asha'man and Aes Sedai have, the "old guard" are going to have to shut up. At the "dawn of a new Age", they aren't going to spend too long being obstacles to the inevitable.

Depends on what you mean by "too long". I definitely think that it's the new generation of Aes Sedai who eventually bring about change, but how long will it take for them to gain influence in the WT? And the new generation still lived in a world where male channellers were feared and hated. It might take a generation that has never known the taint to finally cause a complete shift in the WT over the matter.

Originally Posted by fionwe1987

Then why did Egwene immediately think of the Dragon and the Amyrlin ruling Tar Valon together?

Because she saw the flame and the fang. That doesn't change the fact that the description is not that of the old Aes Sedai symbol. Incidentally her thought are incorrect anyway since the Dragon is not the leader of the male channeller. Or at least he is not meant to be.

Originally Posted by fionwe1987

He does? Tell that to Gabrielle then. The point with Egwene and Logain's past is that they have a basis to establish a working relationship. Just like the Wise One's, despite their distrust and contempt for the AS, agreed to make a deal with them because they knew and trusted Egwene, so can Logain.

Logain is smart enough to realize that gentling him was a bad move for Egwene anyway. Logain barely knows her. Egwene spent months with Wise Ones. And even if he respects her, maybe even likes her, that doesn't change the fact that it's not in the best interests of the Ashaman to join the Aes Sedai at the moment.

Originally Posted by fionwe1987

No, but when they work together to save the world, they'll kind of find it hard to stop. There will be too many personal relationships formed, too many people wedded to the idea of a united Aes Sedai community of men and women for anyone to completely put a stop to it. Will there be no politics on the male-female lines? Of course there will. But once they establish a working relationship where they're likely going to save each others backs, when they daily get to see the amazing things that they can do when they combine their powers together, they're going to find it hard to give that up.

You really think it's going to change that quickly? Cadsuane and Merise don't believe that the Ashaman should be equal to the Aes Sedai and they've been working with them for a while now. Sure the Aes Sedai will fight with the Ashaman at the Last Battle, but that doesn't mean they'll get to know each other all that well. The Aes Sedai will see that the Ashaman are terribly effictive in battle but they already knew thanks to Dumai's Wells. Their opinion of male channellers is ingrained in them, and time is the only thing that'll make it truly go away, same as the taint like Elza told Rand.

Originally Posted by fionwe1987

Egwene, Nynaeve, Siuan, Elayne?

Ah, OK.

Originally Posted by EvilChani

And, unfortunately, this seems to indicate that the Aes Sedai will rule over the Asha'man (if they were equals, the symbols would be side by side). This fits with the idea that all Asha'man should be bonded as Warder-slaves, which may be what Cadsuane ends up forcing on the Asha'man - "No one will ever accept you until they see you are safe, and the only way to do that is to allow the Aes Sedai to bond you as Warders. Maybe, after a time, channeling men can 'earn' the right to remain unbonded, but you must submit to Tower authority either way. Get over it, get on your knees, and swear fealty to a sister or you'll be forced to do so."

I hate it, but I think this is where things are headed. All the men will be bonded unless they run, which I could see Logain doing (he isn't the type to allow a woman to control him or the type to swear to be a mindless slave to some biatch for the rest of his miserable life). Egwene will never accept men as equals to women, it's just not in her nature, and Cadsuane has already stated outright in the text that she thinks all of the Asha'man should be bonded and 'tamed' like Merise has done with that pansy ass Jahar ("Go to the corner Jahar! I'll beat you, Jahar!" Blah!). If I were an Asha'man, I'd run or die first before I let one of those obnoxious, controlling bitches bond me as a slave.

Who's going to force the Ashaman to do anything, especialy give up their freedom? I don't really see anyone having the power to do that. And bonding them forcefully does not sound like something that Egwene would do anyway. And if the Ashaman are not accepted then so be it. They knew what they were getting into when they decided to join. As long as they don't do anything stupid like blowing things up at random, then with time people will change their opinions of Ashaman, and those who have never lived with the taint will have a completely un-biased view of them.

[suttree]

Originally Posted by Master Ablar

Logain is smart enough to realize that gentling him was a bad move for Egwene anyway. Logain barely knows her. Egwene spent months with Wise Ones. And even if he respects her, maybe even likes her, that doesn't change the fact that it's not in the best interests of the Ashaman to join the Aes Sedai at the moment.

But there is still a starting point between the two characters. The fact the Eggy was the one to jump start his new life will not sit lightly with him. You can't underestimate how huge that was his mind for her to make that move. Without it all his "glory" down the road would be impossible.

[fionwe1987]

Originally Posted by suttree

But there is still a starting point between the two characters. The fact the Eggy was the one to jump start his new life will not sit lightly with him. You can't underestimate how huge that was his mind for her to make that move. Without it all his "glory" down the road would be impossible.

And he also said he owes a debt to Nynaeve. And it isn't like Nynaeve isn't going to be enthusiastic about men and women becoming Aes Sedai. She already wants AS to have families. Letting men become members of the Tower will help that. Plus, she discovered the way to make men lose even their last vestiges of madness. They're going to be very greatful for that, and its going to drive home the point that the men need the women and the women need the men.

[EvilChani]

Originally Posted by Davian93

That idea doesnt really fit in with the Guardians balancing the Servants...balance denotes equality, not subservience.

I agree, but from the POV of the Aes Sedai, bonding all of the men would fulfill the vision. From Damer and Narishma's POVs - both of whom are bonded as Warders and treated as servants/possessions - they might agree. The AS/Warder relationship is, by definition, unequal and puts the Warder on ground that is so far below that of his bondholder that he may as well be a slave. He has no say in anything in his own life, must blindly obey his AS, and can apparently be beaten and abused if he doesn't jump fast enough or high enough when she snaps her fingers.

Hell, look at the Egwene/Gawyn relationship. She considers him a "partner" now (which implies some sort of equality) but his part in the partnership is existing to do her bidding, obey her every whim, never question her, and never think for himself. Sorry, but that's not equality. He's a slave, one she may actually love, like someone loves their car, but a slave and possession nonetheless. I think RJ wanted us to see that as a good thing, so it's not too far of a stretch to think that Nicola's foretelling meant nothing more than the men being bonded as slaves and most of them being happy about it. For the ones that aren't, well that's just the hard lesson Caddy had to teach them - they don't get a choice because they're men, which means they're stupid and useless without a woman putting them on a proverbial leash.

What's more, there is absolutely nothing in the text that indicates the AS - especially Egwene, who now rules them with an iron fist! - could even remotely change their minds about the Asha'man. To them, the men are something that must be controlled via a Warder bond, not useful and intelligent partners who should be embraced as equals. At this point, unless Egwene could force all of them into obedience to her and the Hall, there's no way in hell she'd accept them running around unbonded. She may not approve of soul-raping them the way Alanna did to Rand, but she's not above blackmailing or manipulating the men into it, much like Cadsuane did with the poor sots who are now bonded as slaves. Throw in the fact that most of the men in the WoT universe are submissive as hell, which means they'll happily enslave themselves to a woman if she tells them to do so, and the Asha'man don't stand a chance of ever becoming "equals" unless they run for the hills once TG is over and stay out of AS reach.

I agree with Master Ablar - the Asha'man must stay separate if they ever have a chance at making the world see that channeling men aren't terrible. Furthermore, if Egwene does decide that they should accept all male channelers, bonded or not, provided that they will submit to her authority as their leader, she will do so realizing that the world will see them as "controlled" by AS, which will ensure that, should any male channeler attempt to steer clear of the WT, he will be seen as a danger/threat/terror rather than a trustworthy ally to whoever sees him. That will, in turn ensure that any rogue male channeler gets reported to the Tower and she can send Reds to "recruit" him.

If Egwene thinks about it, that will be exactly what she goes for if she realizes that not every channeling male will submit to a bond. That way, she will have control over all channeling males as Amyrlin, will be able to portray channeling men as "pets" to the AS rather than equals, and, on top of all of that, will have another one-up on the Aiel Wise Ones, Windfinders, and Kin (since those three organizations will never accept males into their rank). In the end, assuming authority over all male channelers would grow her power even further, which we know she just loves. The only stumbling block would be if, somehow, Logain either escaped (and kept the Asha'man going "underground" and attempted to ally himself with thrones behind the scenes) or, by some miracle she somehow got pushed into accepting Logain as the leader over the males. Even in the latter situation, she could refuse him the right to negotiate or communicate with anyone outside the Tower and would still be able to portray herself as the one and only ruler over male channelers. Either way, male channelers would be screwed.

[Heinz]

I'm certain I am restating what others have said before, but here's my thought.

"It's Cadsuane. She is going to teach you something, you and the Asha'man. All the Asha'man, I mean. It's something you have to learn, but I don't know what it is, except that none of you will like learning it from her. You aren't going to like it at all."

That part of Min's viewing is what has always bothered me about the 'laughter and tears' being the lesson, and the lesson now being taught. Cadsuane pushed Rand's buttons and instigated the epiphany on Dragonmount. Though it did not happen as she planned, the goal she sought was achieved, and it was an important achievement for Rand and the world.

Yet this did not teach the Asha'man anything. Oh, one might argue that now Good Rand can go and straighten out the Asha'man and thus the lesson came from Cadsuane indirectly. That seems awefully oblique to be Min's viewing though.

"Cadsuane will teach...you and...All the Asha'man..." Yes, I grabbed parts of the sentence to make a whole, but Min's idea was broken up in her moment of speech.

This also assumes that all Asha'man do not know laughter and tears. We know there are Asha'man who have wives and sons and are sons. We know from the Logain story-arc (I'm looping a wide circle there, the 'anti-M'Hael faction basically) that there are comrades who care about doing right and fighting for the Light. They care about things like making a good bracer for archery. Teaching new lads and protecting them. They are not all as hard and mirthless as Dark Rand. The 'laughter and tears' lesson just doesn't fit here, to me.

I believe I read somewhere that the idea was Cadsuane would teach the Asha'man they are still a part of the world, and still just men in the world. Aes Sedai are not the enemy, but a partner. Cadsuane has seen what Corele and Flynn have accomplished with Healing. This would fit with the 'balance' idea in this thread here.

Personally, as one of the members of the tiny Cadsuane Fan Club, I'm hoping for an awesome moment with her and the Asha'man, though I agree that her role and wits (and thus awesomeness) have diminished since her introduction. Really since the Cleansing. As I said, pushing Rand to Veins of Gold was important, but inadvertant and clumsy on Cadsuane's part.

[Grig]

That part of Min's viewing is what has always bothered me about the 'laughter and tears' being the lesson, and the lesson now being taught.

Err...wasn't the lesson that they are men, not weapons? You know, the hugely significant epiphany Rand came to, and gave orders (to Naeff, I think) to tell the other Asha'man about?

It's only partially fulfilled because we haven't seen the BT end yet. Not sure why this is still being discussed after tGS/ToM. Undoubtedly balance is important, but it seemed pretty clear from the books that what Cadsuane "taught" him (by driving him nuts until be snapped and had the epiphany) was that he's a man, as are the Asha'man. And that that is what is important and must not be forgotten. He all but stated it straight out in a rather "voice of the author" type speech.

Doubtless the themes of balance and order are significant with regard to the Final Battle, but not with regard to the viewing on what Cads had to teach him and the Asha'man. Laughter and tears are what Rand was keeping himself from experiencing (and trying to boot camp the Asha'man into moving past as well), but that doesn't mean the viewing (which didn't mention laughter and tears; those were Sorilea and Cadsuane's idea) has two distinct revelations/outcomes that must happen.