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  #121  
Old 05-29-2011, 10:58 PM
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Just my 2 cents, but when you think "Dragon" as part of a title, that usually leads one to believe that the person was involved in warfare, and since the War of Power was the first actual war in who knows how many years, it does lend some credance to what the Unreasoner is saying. You do not get called "The Dragon" during times of peace.

I do have a question, or rather a couple of related ones.
1. Did dragons ever exist in the world of WOT?
If not, then my second one is;
2. How did the people come up with the name "dragon" to bestow upon LTT? Not to mention his banner.
  #122  
Old 05-29-2011, 11:04 PM
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These people had no concept of war, but they have a title lined up for the War Leader? No, it was peoples memories of storied Dragons that caused them to name LTT the Dragon.
  #123  
Old 05-30-2011, 12:27 AM
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They could have just as easily called him the lion, or the bear or whatever. Again, I do not think we have the evidence to definitively say no.

Anyway that wasn't really my point. If the soul that is reborn through the ages to save mankind from the shadow is the dragon, great. The dragon reborn gains the name from fulfilling prophecies and being the prophesised reincarnation of the previous dragon. But in the second age, not only did they not know of the existence of the soul, they also had no name for it. So their naming ltt the dragon was original. And if dragon was a military title, why not name the soul after it?
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  #124  
Old 05-30-2011, 03:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by finnssss View Post
From our point of view, yes, obviously it's more cut and dry.
However, it's not always about what we knew but what the characters believe. It does not seem to be the point of view taken by most of the Forsaken nor does it seem to be the point of view taken by Taim when we first met him.
I have no doubt that Demandred believes that without LTT's luck, he would of been the Dragon, something supported by Messana's POV in LoC, regardless of what the reality is.
He believes that he would (should) have been the leader. But that doesn't mean that he believes that he should have been the Dragon.

Compare it to Great Britain in the 1980s: a number of people there were vying for the position of leader of the country, one of them, Margaret Thatcher, called the Iron Lady, got it. If another* had won the elections, then he would have been Prime Minister, but he wouldn't have been the Iron Lady.

* Can't remember which pillock was Labour leader at the time. The LibDems were theoretically also in the running, of course.
  #125  
Old 05-30-2011, 04:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
* Can't remember which pillock was Labour leader at the time. The LibDems were theoretically also in the running, of course.
In 1979 when Thatcher was elected? I think not. The LibDems didn't come into existence until 1988 as a result of a merger of two other parties.

...what? No, I don't have anything to contribute to the discussion. Except maybe this, like the Rand's superpowers thing, should be move to a seperate thread.
  #126  
Old 05-30-2011, 08:37 AM
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No stupid Questions?

Ahem!

If the True Source provides the One Power and the Dark One provides the True Power wouldn't that somehow imply the the Dark one could be called the One Source?

True Source-----> One Power

One Source------> True Power?

Thank you.
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  #127  
Old 05-30-2011, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
While I recognize you have put far more time into studying wot, your word alone does not constitute evidence.
It constitutes evidence far more than your word does. Instead of spamming the thread with your complaints - any further such posts will be deleted - find the quote or shut up about it.
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  #128  
Old 05-30-2011, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daekyras View Post
No stupid Questions?

Ahem!

If the True Source provides the One Power and the Dark One provides the True Power wouldn't that somehow imply the the Dark one could be called the One Source?
No.
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  #129  
Old 05-30-2011, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
No.
You could say the True Power has only one source, though. Unlike the OP which can be put into Wells.
  #130  
Old 05-30-2011, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rand al'Fain View Post
Just my 2 cents, but when you think "Dragon" as part of a title, that usually leads one to believe that the person was involved in warfare, and since the War of Power was the first actual war in who knows how many years, it does lend some credance to what the Unreasoner is saying. You do not get called "The Dragon" during times of peace.

I do have a question, or rather a couple of related ones.
1. Did dragons ever exist in the world of WOT?
If not, then my second one is;
2. How did the people come up with the name "dragon" to bestow upon LTT? Not to mention his banner.
There are no dragons. There was an association made by the people between the creature shown on Lews Therin's banner and the name "dragon":

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
Netherlands tour, Dromen and Demonen chat - 6 April 2001

Lowlander: Are there any dragons (like real dragons (=animals)) in Rand's world? If not where did they get the idea of dragons?

RJ: There are no animal dragons of any kind in this world. The people speak of a man called the Dragon. They know that the banner that has a certain creature on it was the banner of this man and they have taken to calling this creature the dragon. To them it is a simple association with the name of this man.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
They could have just as easily called him the lion, or the bear or whatever. Again, I do not think we have the evidence to definitively say no.

Anyway that wasn't really my point. If the soul that is reborn through the ages to save mankind from the shadow is the dragon, great. The dragon reborn gains the name from fulfilling prophecies and being the prophesised reincarnation of the previous dragon. But in the second age, not only did they not know of the existence of the soul, they also had no name for it. So their naming ltt the dragon was original. And if dragon was a military title, why not name the soul after it?
See quote above.

Last edited by Marie Curie 7; 05-30-2011 at 11:31 AM. Reason: clarification
  #131  
Old 05-30-2011, 12:18 PM
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That partly answers my question, but there is still the matter of the origin of the creature on the banner and the "why" people began caling LTT the Dragon (wanted or not).
  #132  
Old 05-30-2011, 03:59 PM
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Burn me, the why is obvious - because any discussion of what he is called would drag . . .

oh, never mind.
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  #133  
Old 05-30-2011, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rand al'Fain View Post
That partly answers my question, but there is still the matter of the origin of the creature on the banner and the "why" people began caling LTT the Dragon (wanted or not).
I don't believe it's ever mentioned in the book.
However, since it's supposed to be a past/future earth, it may come from dragon myths in our own Age that made it into the Age of Legends.
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  #134  
Old 05-31-2011, 02:54 AM
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I have a question - well, it's really two questions, but I'll get to that when it's answered, I think:

When exactly did the Aiel move into the Waste?
  #135  
Old 05-31-2011, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
No.
But....but...Awwwww.
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  #136  
Old 05-31-2011, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
I have a question - well, it's really two questions, but I'll get to that when it's answered, I think:

When exactly did the Aiel move into the Waste?
Not long after the Breaking ended; they wandered around for a few hundred years before that. Specifically, c. 80 AB. The Aes Sedai had already announced their plan to build Tar Valon but apparently hadn't started building it yet.
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  #137  
Old 05-31-2011, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Not long after the Breaking ended; they wandered around for a few hundred years before that. Specifically, c. 80 AB. The Aes Sedai had already announced their plan to build Tar Valon but apparently hadn't started building it yet.
Okay, so the second question: that would mean the scene in the animus where Rand's ancestor meets the AS in Rhuidean was simply written before RJ did the switch to Oath Rod-caused Agelessness, or is at actually set after the adoption of the first oath?
  #138  
Old 05-31-2011, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
Okay, so the second question: that would mean the scene in the animus where Rand's ancestor meets the AS in Rhuidean was simply written before RJ did the switch to Oath Rod-caused Agelessness, or is at actually set after the adoption of the first oath?
Not necessarily. Rand's expectations of what a very old Aes Sedai should look like probably affected how he perceived them. Also, the Oath Rod isn't the only thing that produces an "ageless look;" many denizen's of arid climates acquire the same sort of "multiple facelifts" kind of agelessness that the Oath Rod causes.
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  #139  
Old 05-31-2011, 11:43 AM
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Two possibilities: it may have happened before all three Oaths were routinely sworn, or those AS may not have been linked to the White Tower at all. Even during Hawkwing's time there were still AS in Seanchan, and we don't know when the last clusters in other parts of the world died out. All we know is that the WT tried very hard to stamp out rival AS in Randland.
  #140  
Old 05-31-2011, 12:10 PM
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But I think he was saying that the problem is that they DO have the ageless face, not that they do not. In any case, there's no answer to that question. Start a thread about it if you like.
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