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  #701  
Old 10-10-2011, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Hugoye View Post
This is more a question about current theories. I'm pretty convinced by those who argue that Rand has to die. The prophecies/dreams all seem to call for it in one way or another, and it's just a good literary move. Here's my question: according to the theorists who make this case, will the series end with Rand dead? In other words, if Rand is ressurected, is this only temporary?

For instance, I've seen one idea (maybe Terez?) that perhaps Rand takes a knife ter'angreal on his way to SG (to do whatever needs to be done there). Would this sort of theory imply that the series will end with Rand dead?
It depends on what you mean by "dead." According to the Ael'finn, Rand will live after he dies ("To live, you must die"). Moreover, there is Nicola's Foretelling that, "...he who is dead yet lives."

Do these mean Rand will be resurrected in some way, or do they refer to his afterlife as Hero of the Horn and his eventual rebirth?

Different theories call for different scenarios, so there isn't one answer to your question.
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  #702  
Old 10-12-2011, 03:30 PM
confused at birth confused at birth is offline
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Any idea who Elayne knew or suspected that Thom was responsible for assassinating the king in Cairhien

Thom did not exactly advertise what he had done so how did she know?
maybe she got a letter from Verin, it wasnt betraying the shadow so she tell her when ever she wanted.

figured the pardon was also for killing off her father who was kinda big in Cairhien as one of the most powerful lords there at the time.
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  #703  
Old 10-12-2011, 04:05 PM
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why does everyone assume that Mins viewing means that Birgitte is still a hero instead of her doing something in this life that earns her place among them again?
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  #704  
Old 10-12-2011, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by confused at birth View Post
why does everyone assume that Mins viewing means that Birgitte is still a hero instead of her doing something in this life that earns her place among them again?
It's an interesting idea, but since Min's viewings always come true*, there would essentially be no difference between the two,

*if the pattern survives, but if the pattern doesn't survive there will be no heroes. Or anything.
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  #705  
Old 10-12-2011, 04:44 PM
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the difference is she would now have a choice to be normal and live a peaceful life. but if you ended up as a hero you would likely make the choice to save the world again and end up stuck in the cycle

it does give them a way out if they want one though, I was just thinking about the horn and it seems like a crappy deal to me, yes i would like to believe I would be able to step up and do the deed that might earn a place but i am not sure I would take the deal if I had the chance to say no.

sort of like why Ishy wants the world to end, i dont think i would like to spend the rest of time being thrown into the crappy times for the rest of time and ending up dying to save people who cant be bothered to save themselves.


wonder how many people here would take that option?
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  #706  
Old 10-12-2011, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by confused at birth View Post
the difference is she would now have a choice to be normal and live a peaceful life. but if you ended up as a hero you would likely make the choice to save the world again and end up stuck in the cycle

it does give them a way out if they want one though, I was just thinking about the horn and it seems like a crappy deal to me, yes i would like to believe I would be able to step up and do the deed that might earn a place but i am not sure I would take the deal if I had the chance to say no.

sort of like why Ishy wants the world to end, i dont think i would like to spend the rest of time being thrown into the crappy times for the rest of time and ending up dying to save people who cant be bothered to save themselves.


wonder how many people here would take that option?
Given that we don't know what other option is, it's not such a stretch. Heroes, at least, get to have an afterlife in which they are conscious of their own souls. Sure, they forget that once they are spun out, but in the intervening years they can actually live. Uh...so to speak.

If you had to choose between such an afterlife and simple oblivion, which would seem more attractive?
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  #707  
Old 10-12-2011, 05:03 PM
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If you had to choose between such an afterlife and simple oblivion, which would seem more attractive?
True Oblvion?

no thought no self no memories and no pain


you wouldnt know it had happened because there wouldnt be a you to know so i would take that over heaven anyday.
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  #708  
Old 10-12-2011, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Crispin's Crispian View Post
Given that we don't know what other option is, it's not such a stretch. Heroes, at least, get to have an afterlife in which they are conscious of their own souls. Sure, they forget that once they are spun out, but in the intervening years they can actually live. Uh...so to speak.

If you had to choose between such an afterlife and simple oblivion, which would seem more attractive?
Also, in Birgitte's case (at least) she gets to spend that eternal afterlife with someone she loves. Seems like good news to me!

I have to wonder, though, given that Lews Therin apparently did go to TAR before being reborn as Rand, was he just getting the hairy eyeball from all the other heroes? Was he as broken up as Rand on Dragonmount the whole time? That sounds awful.
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  #709  
Old 10-12-2011, 05:10 PM
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because he had all those memories to deal with plus every failure from all the other lives he had to make him feel worse.

its why Nyn felt so bad for Rand when they found out he had LT in his head, she felt that rebirth was ok because you got a second chance without your past life.

which is part of why I think it is a crappy deal, you have a hundred or so of these poor buggers stuck there until they are pushed out and collect more bad things they then have to deal with
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Last edited by confused at birth; 10-12-2011 at 05:15 PM.
  #710  
Old 10-12-2011, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by confused at birth View Post
because he had all those memories to deal with plus every failure from all the other lives he had to make him feel worse.

its why Nyn felt so bad for Rand when they found out he had LT in his head, she felt that rebirth was ok because you got a second chance without your past life.

which is part of why I think it is a crappy deal, you have a hundred or so of these poor buggers stuck there until they are pushed out and collect more bad things they then have to deal with
I think for most heroes it's not a matter of failures but of glory and legend, and knowing you've made it - you're a Hero of the Horn, it doesn't get much bigger than that!

What I would like to know is where the Horn comes from and how it was made. Is it simply as old as the Wheel, or is it a ter'angreal based on observation that certain souls did not seem to leave TAR upon death and thus could be called back?
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Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm,
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Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time,
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Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.

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  #711  
Old 10-12-2011, 05:34 PM
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What I would like to know is where the Horn comes from
it came from the creators viking helmet and fell off during his stag night before he married the dark one, the heroes are his drinking buddies and the hawkwing was his best man.

The Dragon and Nae'blis are divorce lawyers trying to decide who gets the kids
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  #712  
Old 10-12-2011, 06:18 PM
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it came from the creators viking helmet and fell off during his stag night before he married the dark one, the heroes are his drinking buddies and the hawkwing was his best man.

The Dragon and Nae'blis are divorce lawyers trying to decide who gets the kids
You have such a... unique take on things.
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Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm,
wearer of a crown of swords, spinner out of fate.
Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time,
may learn the truth too late.

Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.

The one who Death has known
  #713  
Old 10-12-2011, 08:45 PM
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You have such a... unique take on things.
is that your way of saying nuts?

my mind works in circles which makes it very fast but more than a little loopy
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  #714  
Old 10-14-2011, 12:28 AM
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Theoryland-specific question: I'm more interested in the metaphysics of how things in the WoT universe work. Are there archived discussions of some of these topics I can read through? Maybe on the old forums?

I tried searching, but the search results weren't helpful.

Gracias!
Answer?
  #715  
Old 10-14-2011, 02:13 PM
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We used to have someone archiving/grouping these kinds of discussions. Anyone up to the task ADBF was doing back in the day? I plan to make one but don't have the time at the moment, but it would be useful to start putting together a category list and to find the applicable links to get the Theory/Discussion Database put together.

Anyone?
  #716  
Old 10-23-2011, 02:59 PM
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Can the TP be used in a circle? The reason I'm asking this is because I've been thinking on the "three shall be one" line. What if the the three are Saidin, Saidar and the TP?

Calandor is said to magnify the taint which is the DO and but so is the TP. Could Calandor be a sa'angreal for all three powers?
  #717  
Old 10-23-2011, 03:57 PM
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RJ said that angreal don't work for the True Power, and we have no indication that it can be used in a circle, either. Your theory comes up a lot, but I think it unlikely that Rand will willingly use the True Power again. More likely he'll be in a situation where he has to resist using it (since using it is unquestionably a bad thing).
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  #718  
Old 10-24-2011, 02:16 PM
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Has anybody figured out yet why the Choedan Kal aren't mentioned in the Prophesies?
  #719  
Old 10-24-2011, 02:19 PM
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Why should they be? The cleansing was mentioned obliquely, but that was their only role.
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  #720  
Old 10-26-2011, 03:59 PM
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Default Like scratching an itch you didn't even know you had...

...or satisfying a craving you thought you had left behind long ago.
I started to re-read TGS last night. Not my favorite of the series, which is probably why I am less than completely familiar with it. I anticipate a fruitful re-read, and it's off to a great start. In any case, a little light bulb went on in my head while reading the prologue, and I thought this noob would seek a little redemption:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
...
Noobs you may call us terez, but you are mistaken in thinking Demandred didn't compete for the title dragon. One of the forsaken thinks of it, I'm trying to find the quote.
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No, I am not mistaken.


You won't find it. The quotes you gave are common knowledge and don't have anything to do with what you claimed. 'Dragon' was not a title but rather a name given to Lews Therin by the people, much like the Forsaken were given their names.
At long last, I once again found the quote I was thinking of. Ahem:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TGS, Prologue
What was that blasted man up to? She'd have traded all of her knowledge of Mesaana's and Aran'gar's doings for even a hint of Demandred's plans. He stood there, handsome and hawk-nosed, his lips drawn in perpetual anger. Demandred never smiled, never seemed to enjoy anything. Though he was one of the foremost generals among the Chosen, warfare had never seemed to bring him joy. Once she had heard him say that he would laugh the day he could snap the neck of Lews Therin. And only then.

He was a fool to bear that grudge. To think he might have been on the other sideŚmight have become the Dragon himself, had things turned out differently. Still, fool or not, he was extremely dangerous, and Graendal did not like being ignorant of his plans. Where had he set up? Demandred liked having armies to command, but there were none left moving in the world.
People may press the issue, however conclusive this quote may be. So, I'll reiterate some of my key points:
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Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
just because the dragon was predetermined, does not mean he wasn't also given the title. He could have been predetermined to be the one chosen as the dragon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
They could have just as easily called him the lion, or the bear or whatever. Again, I do not think we have the evidence to definitively say no.

Anyway that wasn't really my point. If the soul that is reborn through the ages to save mankind from the shadow is the dragon, great. The dragon reborn gains the name from fulfilling prophecies and being the prophesised reincarnation of the previous dragon. But in the second age, not only did they not know of the existence of the soul, they also had no name for it. So their naming ltt the dragon was original. And if dragon was a military title, why not name the soul after it?
And I have never supported the idea that there were actual dragons running around. I didn't think I even implied it. But Marie seemed to think I did:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marie Curie 7 View Post
There are no dragons. There was an association made by the people between the creature shown on Lews Therin's banner and the name "dragon"
...so I thought I'd clarify. All too often I don't present my positions in a clear manner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weiramon View Post
Burn me, the why is obvious - because any discussion of what he is called would drag . . .

oh, never mind.
You, sir, are a prophet.
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