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  #21  
Old 03-11-2012, 04:35 AM
Seth Baker Seth Baker is offline
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Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
Which is why this whole discussion is pointless.

Each of the weaves you named are woven close to the channeler and directed to the target. the ability to dodge or deflect the effect of the weave tells us nothing about the speed of the OP at all. forming the weave closer to the target might negate the ability to dodge or deflect.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are no weaves that are formed remotely from the channeler. Everything it formed directly at the channeler and moved to where it is desired.

The ability to dodge or deflect a weave tells us PLENTY about the speed of it. We know how fast human reflexes are. The fact that prolonged channeling battles can take place at relatively close range would suggest that the weaves are traveling no faster than combat weapons (or, at the fastest, ball sports - 150mph is about the limit of our reflexes at a few dozen yards). If the weaves COULD be moved faster, they WOULD. If they WERE faster, human reflexes would not be capable of intercepting them.

Since none of the most knowledgeable channelers in two ages have ever channeled a weave except starting from the self and traveling towards the target; and since none of them appears to be able to strike faster than a wary opponent can react, it seems a perfectly safe deduction that:
  • Weaves must start at the individual channeler;
  • Weaves have a definite or relative speed limit; AND
  • The speed limit of those weaves is relatively low, such that other channelers can react to them to mitigate their effects.

We can't come up with an exact number, but it's not pointless to draw the conclusions I just listed. And I don't think they're fairly debatable.
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  #22  
Old 03-11-2012, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Seth Baker View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are no weaves that are formed remotely from the channeler. Everything it formed directly at the channeler and moved to where it is desired.

The ability to dodge or deflect a weave tells us PLENTY about the speed of it. We know how fast human reflexes are. The fact that prolonged channeling battles can take place at relatively close range would suggest that the weaves are traveling no faster than combat weapons (or, at the fastest, ball sports - 150mph is about the limit of our reflexes at a few dozen yards). If the weaves COULD be moved faster, they WOULD. If they WERE faster, human reflexes would not be capable of intercepting them.

Since none of the most knowledgeable channelers in two ages have ever channeled a weave except starting from the self and traveling towards the target; and since none of them appears to be able to strike faster than a wary opponent can react, it seems a perfectly safe deduction that:
  • Weaves must start at the individual channeler;
  • Weaves have a definite or relative speed limit; AND
  • The speed limit of those weaves is relatively low, such that other channelers can react to them to mitigate their effects.

We can't come up with an exact number, but it's not pointless to draw the conclusions I just listed. And I don't think they're fairly debatable.
One additional point I would like to bring up is how weaves are "handled." In fencing you don't move your arm very fast, but the tip can go extremely fast once you account for angular velocity and other math stuffs. With the OP, can you whip a weave like a whip or fencing sword to achieve much faster speeds than normal? Or they control it more like if they had an imaginary fist guiding it (does this make sense?)
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  #23  
Old 03-11-2012, 06:56 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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Good question, and one which I think RJ deliberately left vague, so as not to make the OP too powerful in combat.

Face an opposing force of Trollocs (for instance, at the Battle of Emond's Field). Stick your right arm out to your left. Take a very thin (ie. razor sharp, or even sharper) flow of Air, half a mile long, and attach it to your right hand. Now bring your arm out to your right, in half a circle, taking the flow of Air with it. And you've now cleared about three quarter square miles of Trollocs, with the exception of those few that managed to either duck quickly enough, or to jump over your Trolloc cutter. Some Myrddraal will also have been caught in this, as well as all of their horses.
Thus, in one second, either Verin or Alanna could have killed 5,000 Trollocs.
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  #24  
Old 03-11-2012, 06:59 AM
Cortar Cortar is offline
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Good question, and one which I think RJ deliberately left vague, so as not to make the OP too powerful in combat.

Face an opposing force of Trollocs (for instance, at the Battle of Emond's Field). Stick your right arm out to your left. Take a very thin (ie. razor sharp, or even sharper) flow of Air, half a mile long, and attach it to your right hand. Now bring your arm out to your right, in half a circle, taking the flow of Air with it. And you've now cleared about three quarter square miles of Trollocs, with the exception of those few that managed to either duck quickly enough, or to jump over your Trolloc cutter. Some Myrddraal will also have been caught in this, as well as all of their horses.
Thus, in one second, either Verin or Alanna could have killed 5,000 Trollocs.
Well at that range, the flows wouldn't be able to move very fast (because of the amount of torque required. Plus that far away I imagine its hard to keep the weaves to a fine enough point to cut.
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  #25  
Old 03-11-2012, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Seth Baker View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are no weaves that are formed remotely from the channeler. Everything it formed directly at the channeler and moved to where it is desired.
Just off-hand, I'd suggest that the member of the Keystone Koven who kills with the OP forms her killing weaves inside of her victim rather than moving the weave to/into the victim.

Also, forming a gateway to close to oneself could be hazardous to a Channeler's health; of necessity, it is a weave that must be formed at some distance.
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  #26  
Old 03-11-2012, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by TSR, Chapter x, The Stone Stands
Just beneath the ceiling, right above his head, air slowly began to revolve, spinning faster, milling in streaks of red and black and silver. It roiled and collapsed inward, boiling harder, whining as it whirled and grew smaller still.
Sweat rolled down Rand's face as he stared up at it. He had no idea what it was, only that racing flows he could not begin to count connected him to the mass. It had mass; a weight growing greater while the thing fell inward on itself. Callandor flared brighter and brighter, too brilliant to look at; he closed his eyes, and the light seemed to burn, through his eyelids. The Power raced through him, a raging torrent that threatened to carry all that was him into the spinning. He had to let go. He had to. He forced his eyes open, and it was like looking at all the thunderstorms in the world compressed to the size of a Trolloc's head. He had to... had to... had to...
So while the actual weave doesn't need to start at the channeler, that does not necessarily mean that the individual flows don't start there.
On the other hand, as he himself notes here, Rand didn't know what he was doing at this point. So your mileage may vary.

What is the mileage of an Unladen Balefire Stream (UBS)?
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  #27  
Old 03-11-2012, 03:07 PM
Cortar Cortar is offline
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Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
Just off-hand, I'd suggest that the member of the Keystone Koven who kills with the OP forms her killing weaves inside of her victim rather than moving the weave to/into the victim.

Also, forming a gateway to close to oneself could be hazardous to a Channeler's health; of necessity, it is a weave that must be formed at some distance.
If this were true then why were Nyv.. and the Sea Folk channellers "practicing" like they were? Why start the weave in front of you and send it towards the other channeller if you can just spawn in on top of them?
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  #28  
Old 03-11-2012, 03:24 PM
Seth Baker Seth Baker is offline
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Originally Posted by Cortar View Post
One additional point I would like to bring up is how weaves are "handled." In fencing you don't move your arm very fast, but the tip can go extremely fast once you account for angular velocity and other math stuffs. With the OP, can you whip a weave like a whip or fencing sword to achieve much faster speeds than normal? Or they control it more like if they had an imaginary fist guiding it (does this make sense?)
I think the weaving analogy would suggest that they're pushed rather than pulled, which would make a whip impossible. However, it can't be absolute; since they're not actually weaving WITH anything (there's no needle, no loom, etc.), they necessarily have to be somewhat prehensile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
So while the actual weave doesn't need to start at the channeler, that does not necessarily mean that the individual flows don't start there.
On the other hand, as he himself notes here, Rand didn't know what he was doing at this point. So your mileage may vary.

What is the mileage of an Unladen Balefire Stream (UBS)?
Agreed. It's inconceivable that the weave could be formed at any distance from the channeler. I'm going to infer (though, admittedly without any evidence to support it) that the threads come out of the channeler and form the weave, but that since there's fine detail involved in weaving and it seems to be easier to weave what you can see, that most channelers don't weave far away from themselves. Or, possibly, it could even be impossible past a certain distance to form an effective weave.

Weird Harold has proven that weaves can form without touching the channeler. However, I don't think there's any way that you can argue that a channeler could just make a weave appear out of nothing at some distance, or the ball of fire that took of Rand's hand would have just appeared at Semirhage's target.
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  #29  
Old 03-11-2012, 03:48 PM
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Weird Harold has not proven that weaves can form without touching the channeler. RJ has said that the flows originate from the channeler's body, although it may appear otherwise to the channeler himself. If someone has the quote ready, please post it. I'm still getting the hang of the new database.
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  #30  
Old 03-11-2012, 04:05 PM
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I think it varies. Some weaves start from the wielder and some are formed a distance from the wielder. For example a fire ball probably starts at the wielder who then "throws" it towards its intended target. On the other hand a lightning bolt, striking from above, is probably formed a distance from the wielder. Working flows at a distance is proportionally as tiresome as weaving flows a long distance.

When it comes to balefire I think it must originate from the wielder and its velocity is probably the speed of light or close to it.

This is just how I view the matter and may differ from your picture of it.
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  #31  
Old 03-11-2012, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
Weird Harold has not proven that weaves can form without touching the channeler. RJ has said that the flows originate from the channeler's body, although it may appear otherwise to the channeler himself. If someone has the quote ready, please post it. I'm still getting the hang of the new database.
Ta-da!

Quote:
Originally Posted by INTERVIEW: Jan 25th, 2005
TOR Questions of the Week Part II (Verbatim)
WEEK 9 QUESTION
When a person channels, where do the flows appear to originate from? Do they extrude themselves somehow from the person's body, or do they seem to appear out of thin air in the channeler's general vicinity? What do the flows look like to a person who can channel? Are they colored, clear or indeterminate, smooth or rough, wispy or solid?
ROBERT JORDAN
To the channeler, the flows seem to originate in his or her very immediate vicinity, not to emanate from themselves, although to another channeler, those flows do seem to be emanating from the channeler. The latter is the actual case, as the One Power is passing through the channeler, one of the reasons for individual limits on how much of the Power a particular person can handle. (And you have seen characters react as if to a blow from having a flow snapped or cut.)

A channeler sees the flows as colored very faintly, according to which of the Five Powers is involved (red = Fire, Blue = Water, green = Earth, yellow = Air, white = Spirit), although the "feel" of the flows are also different to a channeler, so that a channeler can tell one from another without actually seeing them. (That is how someone can tell that somebody else has channeled, say, Fire and Earth, in their vicinity without seeing the flows.) It isn't a physical feel; you might almost as well say that they have different flavors. They appear to be smooth and nearly transparent, tinged with color.
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  #32  
Old 03-11-2012, 04:17 PM
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Ah, I see I was wrong.

World shattered.

What to do now. Ah there's the razor blade.
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  #33  
Old 03-11-2012, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Tomp View Post
Ah, I see I was wrong.

World shattered.

What to do now. Ah there's the razor blade.
NOOOOOO! We need you for chapter six! (or will in a bit, hopefully)
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  #34  
Old 03-11-2012, 04:26 PM
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NOOOOOO! We need you for chapter six! (or will in a bit, hopefully)
Why don't you just write all of it?
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  #35  
Old 03-11-2012, 04:33 PM
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Why don't you just write all of it?
Do you want me to write you a film noir fantasy novel? When's your birthday?
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  #36  
Old 03-11-2012, 04:46 PM
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Ta-da!
Thank you.


And Jasind better turn out to be a badass, if you want to keep calling this story 'film noir'. Anyara can be the sexual deviant sociopath.
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  #37  
Old 03-11-2012, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Tomp View Post
Ah, I see I was wrong.

World shattered.

What to do now. Ah there's the razor blade.
The issue was that you weren't distinguishing between flows and weaves. The flows originate at the channeler; the weaves can be formed away from the body.

We've gotten a little far afield from the initial tangent though - I maintain that there MUST be effective limits to the speed that either weaves OR flows can travel (and that limit must be relatively low, no more than 150-200 mph at absolute most, and likely lower) otherwise we wouldn't see the prolonged channeling battles. Even power-enhanced, even with the ko'di, human reflexes have their limits.
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Old 03-12-2012, 01:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Tomp View Post
I think it varies. Some weaves start from the wielder and some are formed a distance from the wielder. ...
This^^^

the variation is so wide that no hard conclusion can be arrived at. Some weaves are delayed action traps that can presumably still function in a timely manner even if the channeler who set them is providing the OP flow from half a world away . other weaves, i.e. fireballs, travel at the speed the channeler expects/wants them to.

The weaving of the Bowl of the Winds spread from a central point to encompass the world in less than one day and channelers apparently felt the weaving before the effects arrived. The forsaken felt the Cleansing quickly enough to respond while it was still in progress.

If the OP is limited to 200mph or less, it could not be sensed/seen the way it has been described.
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  #39  
Old 03-12-2012, 04:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
This^^^

the variation is so wide that no hard conclusion can be arrived at. Some weaves are delayed action traps that can presumably still function in a timely manner even if the channeler who set them is providing the OP flow from half a world away . other weaves, i.e. fireballs, travel at the speed the channeler expects/wants them to.

The weaving of the Bowl of the Winds spread from a central point to encompass the world in less than one day and channelers apparently felt the weaving before the effects arrived. The forsaken felt the Cleansing quickly enough to respond while it was still in progress.

If the OP is limited to 200mph or less, it could not be sensed/seen the way it has been described.
You are confusing the effects of the weave, and the threads. All threads start from the channeller himself and probably travel and max, 100mph. When you want to make a fireball, you weave the threads in front of you and send the fireball out, which could travel at a faster or slower rate than the threads.

When channelling through the bowl of winds, the weave was placed on the sky around them, then it spread quickly through the rest of the world.

The cleansing was different because nobody actually felt the weaves or saw them. They only felt someone holding a lot of power, which is different.
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Old 03-12-2012, 06:29 AM
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Just to muddle up things further, there's this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TGS, Chapter 37, A Force of Light
And then, with a sound like a sigh, he released it. A column of pure whiteness exploded from him and burned across the silent night sky, illuminating the trees below it in a wave. It moved as quick as a snap of the fingers, striking the wall of the distant fortress. The stones came alight, as if they were breathing in the force of the energy. The entire fortress glowed, transforming into living light, an amazing, spectacular palace of unadulterated energy. It was beautiful.
Isn't it wonderful to have such a clear statement from the books themselves?

Now all we need do is find what conversion unit to use between "a snap of the fingers" and meters per second, and then we'll have the answer.
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