Lanfear Killed Asmodean - A Discussion (This title is not a spoiler!)

[Tamyrlin]

I'll humor this for now - I haven't given much room for belief on this theory, since as I laid out in a previous reply, we were told Cyndane/Lanfear says she was held, which makes it all sorts of crazy to put her there to kill Asmodean.

So, Lanfear believers, what exactly is your belief how that statement can be true, but she still could have killed Asmodean?

By the way - want me to move this to General?

[Sodas]

Oh boy.

[Wunderwaffe]

Lanfear and Moiraine went through the doorway that leads to three wishes, right? So, if she was cunning, she could have wished for, at the very least, a temporary escape. But why kill Asmodean? Such a vast waste of resources and time. Lanfear knows how weak Asmodean is. I don't think she would 'escape' from Finnland simply to kill Asmodean -- she'd instead go after Rand, or the two girls.

However, she might have visited this ter'angreal back in the AOL, which would spell certain doom for her to enter it again. The manner in which they entered it may have dire consequences, also.

The largest clue that points towards it being Lanfear is Asmodean's reaction to seeing whoever was in that wine cellar. He was PETRIFIED. Lanfear is the only one that I know of who could evoke that strong of an emotion out of Asmodean.

[Brita]

We don't really know when the DO re-incarnated Lanfear as Cyndane, mostly because we don't know exactly when she dies. But it is not a stretch to imagine she dies instantly or very soon after falling through the doorway. So she could have been back in the action very quickly.

Would Asmodean recognize Cyndane as Lanfear? That may be unlikely perhaps.....but who knows where that small door actually led to- there has been a lot of speculation on that. It could have been to a place that held Lanfear as her true self, and not as Cyndane- like Tel'aran'rhiod.

But if he did recognize her, it would certainly explain his surprise, his fear and his instant shock. And she has strong motive, a very recent and personal link with him and maybe even direct orders from Moridin to do this.

His reaction (extreme familiarity with the person, instant shock and terror) says Lanfear. Why would he be instantly shocked to see Aviendha standing there. Even any of the other Forsaken? He may be wary and surprised, but not shock and terror. Does he have that familiarity with Slayer to say "You?" like that? I don't recall that he does.

His reaction says Lanfear, and what happened to her after the fall through the doorway is enough of a mystery that there is a lot of ways she could be involved.

[Neilbert]

I'll just tell you a story.

Lanfear tumbles through the doorframe, channeling everywhere. The Finns don't like this, so they take her and Moiraine prisoner. Lanfear knows how the Finns work, so she is able to barter with them for release. The price the Finns take is a portion of her channeling ability. Moiraine is playing a different game. She has asked for something more valuable, and has agreed to be held. She is planning on cheating, by having Thom and Mat come rescue her.

Lanfear escaped her imprisonment and realized a few things. She couldn't have Lews Therin, but she could still have her first love, power. She just needed to do some clean up. The only people who know she was a traitor are Rand and Asmodean. Nobody will believe Rand, but Asmodean is a liability.

She knows where Rand is going, so she hitails it over to Camelyn where she catches Asmodean napping (literally) and she dreamkills him. She does this so the Dark One can't bring Asmodean back. Of all the Chosen she is the only one with motive to kill Asmo permanently.

Asmodean out of the picture she can resume her plans as good little Chosen. Kill Lews Therin, become Nae'bliss, rule for eternity.

Only Morridin knows about Asmodean being a traitor, and decides it is time for Lanfear to be on a tighter leash.

[Zaela Sedai]

NOW JOIN IT!

[Ivhon]

Originally Posted by Zaela Sedai

Fixed. Nothing to see here. Move along. Move along.

Check linky...Im getting your faction admin screen.

If I were truly ebil.....naaah, I wont.

[Zaela Sedai]

Fixed...but um could you delete the quote LOL

[Tamyrlin]

I think I've fixed the links though.

[1Powerslave]

Originally Posted by Tamyrlin

So, Lanfear believers, what exactly is your belief how that statement can be true, but she still could have killed Asmodean?

A wish fulfilled by the Finns. The deed was done as herself as Lanfear (in between wishes, before she became Cyndane etc.). She wished that she would get to kill Asmodean and it was granted. As for the actual details we can speculate. But if you are going to try to prove that this wasn't possible, then you have to make the case that the Finn can't grant wishes much at all, in spite of what we are told.

[Tamyrlin]

A wish fulfilled by the Finns. She wished that she would get to kill Asmodean and it was granted. As for the actual details we can speculate. But if you are going to try to prove that this wasn't possible, then you have to make the case that the Finn can grant wishes much at all.

I think it's a reasonable question. Are there any wishes the Foxes cannot fulfill? We know they can't transmigrate souls, and we know they can't hold souls (along with other things), so they are not omnipotent. Also, the Foxes say the words "Done", which I would suggest that means that depending on what is asked for, they could say "No".

[1Powerslave]

Originally Posted by Tamyrlin

I think it's a reasonable question. Are there any wishes the Foxes cannot fulfill? We know they can't transmigrate souls, and we know they can't hold souls (along with other things), so they are not omnipotent. Also, the Foxes say the words "Done", which I would suggest that means that depending on what is asked for, they could say "No".

I think that rather than a "No", you die (wishes touching the Shadow perhaps - the Dark One dead etc.), or your wish is wilfully interpreted and fulfilled in a way that could be said to be what you wished for but in no way wasn't. I.e. how Mat became free of Aes Sedai.

[Tamyrlin]

It could be they interpret it as best they can, but I don't see any reason why they couldn't/wouldn't tell someone no.

I want all of you to die.

"No."

I'm going to ask Brandon about the Treaties.

[Terez]

Originally Posted by Tamyrlin

I think I've fixed the links though.

I pointed that problem out to you three years ago. Glad you finally got around to fixing it.

[Isabel]

I vaguelly remember a quote by RJ that the Fins had to drag Mat from the doorframe to hang him.
Anyone remembers this? Because that seems to indicate that the finns can't create magically doorways.

[Callandor]

But boy is it sad.

Originally Posted by Tamyrlin

I'll humor this for now - I haven't given much room for belief on this theory, since as I laid out in a previous reply, we were told Cyndane/Lanfear says she was held, which makes it all sorts of crazy to put her there to kill Asmodean.

So, Lanfear believers, what exactly is your belief how that statement can be true, but she still could have killed Asmodean?

My general idea was not that Lanfear wished to kill Asmodean. Instead, she worded her wish to say that she wanted to be taken to Caemlyn to see a "friend." This was meaning Rand, and it was her intention to be brought there to kill him.

However, they deposited her in a position to kill Asmodean (ta'verenness, saying she wanted an out of the way place so not to startle her friend, the Finn being their manipulative selves and interpreting Asmodean as her friend, what have you). Having the opportunity, and meeting a person who is at fault for causing her some problems very recently, she killed Asmodean.

I figured she was using her first wish, and therefore would be returning to Finnland to complete her wishes.

The most important part of it was that I didn't think she wished to kill Asmodean -- it was a sidetrack and she took advantage of it.

But, really, who cares about Asmodean?

[Tamyrlin]

Okay, I care that it wasn't Graendal, beyond that, it will just be fun to find out and then to find out the details that were in Jordan's head that put it all together.

[Wantanswers]

Originally posted by Isabel
I vaguelly remember a quote by RJ that the Fins had to drag Mat from the doorframe to hang him.
Anyone remembers this? Because that seems to indicate that the finns can't create magically doorways

From an interview with Sanderson

Matt: Ok. This is a fun one that I don’t think I’ve heard before, can the Creator use the True Power?
Brandon: RAFO.
Matt: Can the Dark One use the One Power?
Brandon: RAFO
Matt: I figured I had to ask both. Are there any other sources of Powers either within the Pattern or outside of the Wheel? Are there any sources like…
Brandon: ...sources much like the One Power and True Power?
Matt: Right.
Brandon: I will have to RAFO that.

We’ll have to learn if there is another source of power. But if there is, could the Finns use it to create doors to other worlds?
There is another possibility too:

Matt: ...would the Finns have the ability to accentuate someone’s beauty and/or quantity or access to the One Power through their own capabilities and talents?
Brandon: Yes, but it might involve third party Ter’angreal, Angreal, this sort of thing…
Matt: ...so, they don’t have power to affect the soul’s capability of increasing its total channeling?
Brandon: Certainly not permanently, as far I understand, that is outside the realm of their ability…
Matt: …from a beauty perspective can they affect the outer body of some individual?
Brandon: I would say that, yes they can, but they may have to be using some type of Ter’angreal or…
Matt: …some item of power?
Brandon: Some item of power, something like that…of which they have great stores…
[what???]
Matt: ...Really…heh, so the obvious question, where did the Finns get great stores of Ter’angreal, Angreal, and is that part of the Pact they made.?
Brandon: RAFO…but if you just think about it, we don’t even have to go to the notes for this if you think about it logically, we know of them providing certain items of power to certain individuals that they were able to match very nicely with certain requests very easily. If you run the statistics on that its either a huge coincidence or they have very many to choose from.
Matt: So, how many Finns are there?
Brandon: RAFO. I’m going to RAFO a lot of Finn stuff just so you know.

Couldn’t they have an object of power or a ter’angreal , that don’t need the use of OP, to create a gateway or door to other worlds. We know the Eelfinn wear bronze knives. We also know a bronze knife is needed to open a door to the Finnworld. Bloody ashes; a new question is raising:
Will any bronze knife do or is a special (power wrought?) one needed?

[Crispin's Crispian]

There is a host of problems with the "Lanfear Wished It" theory.

If she used her first or second wish to get to Caemlyn (regardless of motive), what evidence is there to suggest the Eel'finn could pull her back?

If it was her final wish or if the Eel'finn failed in pulling her back, how did she get transmigrated? Where has she been? Moreover, when did she have the opportunity to be held by both the Ael'finn and Eel'finn?

Regarding motive, I think Neil has the best explanation I've heard--only Asmodean and Rand know she gave Asmodean to Rand. The problem with this is that Lanfear had already set Asmodean and Rand free--why kill him now? This requires that Asmodean had in some way compromised Lanfear and that she somehow found out about it. Either that, or she was still blind with jealous rage at Rand for the "other women" and wanted to kill everyone around him. But then again--why didn't she go after Rand directly?

There are just too many unknowns and assumptions that have to be made.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Or, if she couldn't go after Rand: why did she not kill Aviendha?