art by =saintchase

Theoryland Resources

WoT Interview Search

Search the most comprehensive database of interviews and book signings from Robert Jordan, Brandon Sanderson and the rest of Team Jordan.

Wheel of Time News

An Hour With Harriet

2012-04-30: I had the great pleasure of speaking with Harriet McDougal Rigney about her life. She's an amazing talent and person and it will take you less than an hour to agree.

The Bell Tolls

2012-04-24: Some thoughts I had during JordanCon4 and the upcoming conclusion of "The Wheel of Time."

Theoryland Community

Members: 7611

Logged In (0):

Newest Members:johnroserking, petermorris, johnadanbvv, AndrewHB, jofwu, Salemcat1, Dhakatimesnews, amazingz, Sasooner, Hasib123,

Theoryland Tweets

Forums

Home | Chat | Old Forums(Yuku)


Go Back   Theoryland of the Wheel of Time Forums > THEORYLAND STEDDINGS > Forum Archives > Archived - WoT Discussion Boards > Book 12: The Gathering Storm
User Name
Password

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-15-2010, 11:37 AM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,127
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default The Black Hills, and the Borderlanders

The Black Hills have been mentioned several times throughout the series, in connection to important people in the series. What first brought them to my attention was three mentions of a farm in the Black Hills (supposedly all three are different farms, and one might well be fictitious):

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - A Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 2 - The Butcher's Yard

(Perrin POV)

"I think the Lord Dragon is too busy for teaching," Taim replied smoothly, yet the anger smell rose again. "Too important. Take men who need the least of it. I can choose the furthest along—"
"One," Rand cut in. "And I will choose." Taim smiled, spreading his hands in acquiescence, but the scent of frustration nearly overwhelmed anger. Again Rand pointed without looking. "Him." This time, he seemed surprised to find he was pointing directly at a man in his middle years sitting atop an upturned cask on the other side of the wagon circle, paying no attention to the gathering around Rand. Instead, elbow on his knee and chin propped on his hand, he was frowning at the Aes Sedai prisoners. The sword and Dragon glittered on the high collar of his black coat. "What is his name, Taim?"

"Dashiva," Taim said slowly, studying Rand. He smelled even more surprised than Rand did, and irritated, too. "Corlan Dashiva. From a farm in the Black Hills."

"He will do," Rand said, but he did not sound sure himself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - The Path of Daggers
CHAPTER: 26 - The Extra Bit


Toveine Gazal, once a Sitter for the Red, would go into the histories as the woman who destroyed this 'Black' Tower.

She was sure Elaida thought her grateful for the chance, called back from exile and disgrace, given the opportunity for redemption. She sneered, and if a wolf had been looking into the deep hood of her cloak, it might have quailed. What had been done twenty years ago was necessary, and the Light burn all those who muttered that the Black Ajah must have been involved. It had been necessary and right, but Toveine Gazal had been driven from her chair in the Hall, and forced to howl for mercy under the birch, with the assembled sisters watching, and even novices and Accepted witnessing that Sitters, too, lay beneath the law, though they were not told what law. And then she had been sent to work these last twenty years on the isolated Black Hills farm of Mistress Jara Doweel, a woman who considered an Aes Sedai serving penance in exile no different from any other hand laboring in sun and snow. Toveine’s hands shifted on her reins; she could feel the calluses. Mistress Doweel—even now, she could not think of the woman without the honorific she had demanded—Mistress Doweel believed in hard work. And discipline as tight as any novice faced! She had no mercy on anyone who tried to shirk the backbreaking labor that she herself shared, and less than none for a woman who sneaked away to comfort herself with a pretty boy. That had been Toveine’s life these past twenty years. And Elaida had slipped through the cracks uncaught, danced her way to the Amyrlin Seat that Toveine had once dreamed of for herself. No, she was not grateful. But she had learned to wait her chance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 34 - The Hummingbird's Secret


Cadsuane sighed. A ragtag army she had assembled, but even a makeshift army needed discipline. Especially with the battle just ahead. It would have been worse had she not forced the Sea Folk women to remain behind. "I can do this without either of you, if need be," she said firmly. "No; don't say anything, Nynaeve. Merise or Corele can wear that belt as well as you. So if you children do not stop whining, I will have Alivia take you back to the Heights and give you something to whine about." That was the only reason she had brought the strange wilder. Alivia had a tendency to become very mild-mannered around those she could not stare down, but she stared very fiercely at those two chattering magpies.

Their heads swiveled toward the golden-haired woman as one, and the magpies fell blessedly silent. Silent, yet hardly accepting. Min could grind her teeth all she wanted, but Nynaeve's sullen glower irritated Cadsuane. The girl had good material in her, but her training had been cut far too short. Her ability with Healing was little short of miraculous, her ability with almost anything else dismal. And she had not been put through the lessons that what must be endured, could be endured. In truth, Cadsuane sympathized with her. Somewhat. It was a lesson not everyone could learn in the Tower. She herself, full of pride in her new shawl and her own strength, had been taught by a near toothless wilder at a farm in the heart of the Black Hills. Oh, it was a very ragtag little army she had gathered to try standing Far Madding on its head.
So, three farms in the Black Hills: the one that Dashiva was ostensibly from, the one where Toveine was exiled, and the one where Cadsuane earned her ornaments.

Other notable events in the Black Hills...

1. The escape of Mazrim Taim:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - The Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 17 - Deceptions

Leane pulled the door open to reveal a dark novice who flinched at Siuan's continuing tirade, then dropped a deep curtsy. "Messages for the Amyrlin, Aes Sedai," the girl squeaked. "Two pigeons arrived at the loft." She was one of those who had told Min she was beautiful, and she tried to stare past the Keeper with wide eyes.

"This does not concern you, child," Leane said briskly, taking the tiny cylinders of bone out of the girl's hand. "Back to the loft with you." Before the novice finished rising, Leane shut the door, then leaned against it with a sigh. "I have jumped at every unexpected sound since you told me . . ." Straightening, she came back to the table. "Two more messages, Mother. Shall I . . . ?"

"Yes. Open them," the Amyrlin said. "No doubt Morgase has decided to invade Cairhien after all. Or Trollocs have overrun the Borderlands. It would be of a piece with everything else." Min kept her seat; Siuan had sounded all too realistic with some of those threats.

Leane examined the red wax seal on the end of one of the small cylinders, no larger than her own finger joint, then broke it open with a thumbnail when she was satisfied it had not been tampered with. The rolled paper inside she extracted with a slim ivory pick. "Nearly as bad as Trollocs, Mother," she said almost as soon as she began reading. "Mazrim Taim has escaped."

"Light!" Siuan barked. "How?"

"This only says he was taken away by stealth in the night, Mother. Two sisters are dead."

"The Light illumine their souls. But we've little time to mourn the dead while the likes of Taim are alive and ungentled. Where, Leane?"

"Denhuir, Mother. A village east of the Black Hills on the Maradon Road, above the headwaters of the Antaeo and the Luan." [map - it's small writing, but the river running up the east side of the Black Hills is the Luan, and the Antaeo is probably the small river that joins the Luan east of the southern hills]

"It had to be some of his followers. Fools. Why won't they know when they are beaten? Choose out a dozen reliable sisters, Leane . . ." The Amyrlin grimaced. "Reliable," she muttered. "If I knew who was more reliable than a silverpike, I'd not have the problems I do. Do the best you can, Leane. A dozen sisters. And five hundred of the guards. No, a full thousand."

"Mother," the Keeper said worriedly. "The Whitecloaks—"

"—would not try to cross the bridges if I left them unwatched entirely. They would be afraid of a trap. There is no telling what is going on up there, Leane. I want whoever I send to be ready for anything. And Leane . . . Mazrim Taim is to be gentled as soon as he is taken again."

Leane's eyes opened wide with shock. "The law."

"I know the law as well as you, but I will not risk having him freed again ungentled. I'll not risk another Guaire Amalasan, not on top of every thing else."

"Yes, Mother," Leane said faintly.
The second pigeon told of the shepherd holding the sword, and Siuan called for the Hall to sit immediately, giving Elaida the impetus to go forward with her plans. This order to send sisters to recapture Taim was probably one of the last that Siuan gave; she was deposed sixteen days later (probably long enough to have managed to send out those sisters to recapture Taim).

2. Careane, the Black that killed Ispan, Adeleas, Reanne, and others, seemed to know a great deal about places in the Black Hills (and she is Domani):

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - A Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 39 - Promises to Keep

"I think I have just made a bargain with a ta’veren," she said in that cool, deep voice. The woman could teach Aes Sedai how to pull themselves together quickly. "But one day, Master Cauthon, if it pleases the Light, I think you will walk a rope for me."
He did not know what that meant, except that she made it sound unpleasant. He made his best leg. "All things are possible, if it pleases the Light," he murmured. Courtesy paid, after all. But her smile was disturbingly hopeful.

When he turned back to the rest of the room, you would have thought he had horns and wings, for the stares. "Is there any further argument?" he asked in a wry tone, and did not wait for answers. "I thought not. In that case, I suggest you pick out some spot well away from here, and we can be on our way as soon as you bundle up your belongings."

They made a show of discussion. Elayne mentioned Caemlyn, sounding at least half-serious, and Careane suggested several remote villages in the Black Hills, all easily reached by gateway. Light, anywhere was easily reached by gateway. Vandene spoke of Arafel, and Aviendha suggested Rhuidean, in the Aiel Waste, with the Sea Folk women growing glummer the farther from the sea were the places named. All a show. To Mat, at least, that was clear by Nynaeve’s impatient fiddling with her braid despite the suggestions coming hot and fast.

"If I may speak, Aes Sedai?" Reanne said timidly at last. She even raised her hand. "The Kin maintain a farm on the other side of the river, a few miles north. Everyone knows it is a retreat for women who need contemplation and quiet, but no one connects it to us. The buildings are large and quite comfortable, if there’s any need to stay long, and—"

"Yes," Nynaeve broke in. "Yes, I think that sounds just the thing. What do you say, Elayne?"

"I think it sounds wonderful, Nynaeve. I know Renaile will appreciate staying close to the sea." The other five sisters practically piled on top of her saying how agreeable it sounded, how superior to any other suggestion.

3. The Borderlander rulers meet in the Black Hills. A great deal of general info is given about the Black Hills, and I will include all of it, and also the info on the Aes Sedai that are with them (it could be relevant, seeing as how the visiting Aes Sedai match the number that Siuan sent to capture Taim, in the above quote from The Shadow Rising):


Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - The Path of Daggers
PROLOGUE - Deceptive Appearances

Ethenielle had seen mountains lower than these misnamed Black Hills, great lopsided heaps of half-buried boulders, webbed with steep twisting passes. A number of those passes would have given a goat pause. You could travel three days through drought-withered forests and brown-grassed meadows without seeing a single sign of human habitation, then suddenly find yourself within half a day of seven or eight tiny villages, all ignorant of the world. The Black Hills were a rugged place for farmers, away from the trade routes, and harsher now than usual. A gaunt leopard that should have vanished at the sight of men watched from a steep slope, not forty paces away, as she rode past with her armored escort. Westward, vultures wheeled patient circles like an omen. Not a cloud marred the blood-red sun, yet there were clouds of a sort. When the warm wind blew, it raised walls of dust.

...

Frowning, she considered the luck that had let her come this far without having to kill anyone, avoiding those flyspeck villages even when it meant days added to the journey. The few Ogier stedding presented no problem—Ogier paid little heed to what happened among humans, most times, and less than usual of late, it seemed—but the villages . . . They were too small to hold eyes-and-ears for the White Tower, or for this fellow who claimed to be the Dragon Reborn—perhaps he was; she could not decide which way would be worse—too small, yet peddlers did pass through, eventually. Peddlers carried as much gossip as trade goods, and they spoke to people who spoke to other people, rumor flowing like an ever-branching river, through the Black Hills and into the world outside. With a few words, a single shepherd who had escaped notice could light a signal fire seen five hundred leagues off.

...

Beyond Lomas the pass opened into a shallow bowl almost too small to be named a valley, with trees too widely spaced to be called a thicket. Leatherleaf and blue fir and three-needle pine held to some green along with a few oaks, but the rest were sheathed in brown if not bare-branched. To the south, however, lay what had made this spot a good choice for meeting. A slender spire like a column of gleaming golden lace lay slanting and partly buried in the bare hillside, a good seventy paces of it showing above the treetops. Every child in the Black Hills old enough to run off leading strings knew of it, but there was not a village inside four days’ travel, nor would anyone come within ten miles willingly. The stories of this place spoke of mad visions, of the dead walking, and death at touching the spire.

Ethenielle did not consider herself fanciful, yet she shivered slightly. Nianh said the spire was a fragment from the Age of Legends, and harmless. With luck, the Aes Sedai had no reason to recall that conversation of years ago. A pity the dead could not be made to walk, here. Legend said Kirukan had beheaded a false Dragon with her own hands, and borne two sons by another man who could channel. Or maybe the same one. She might have known how to go about their purpose and survive.

...

A word caught Ethenielle’s ear and jerked her upright in her saddle. She should have been paying attention; too much was at stake. "Aes Sedai?" she said sharply. "What about Aes Sedai?" Save for Paitar’s, their White Tower advisors had all left at news of the troubles in the Tower, her own Nianh and Easar’s Aisling vanishing without a trace. If Aes Sedai had gained a hint of their plans . . . Well, Aes Sedai always had plans of their own. Always. She would dislike discovering that she was putting her hands into two hornet nests, not just one.

Paitar shrugged, looking a trifle embarrassed. That was no small trick for him; he, like Serailla, let nothing upset him. "You hardly expected me to leave Coladara behind, Ethenielle," he said in soothing tones, "even if I could have kept the preparations from her." She had not; his favorite sister was Aes Sedai, and Kiruna had given him a deep fondness for the Tower. Ethenielle had not expected it, but she had hoped. "Coladara had visitors," he continued. "Seven of them. Bringing them along seemed prudent, under the circumstances. Fortunately, they require little convincing. None, in truth."

"The Light illumine and preserve our souls," Ethenielle breathed, and heard near echoes from Serailla and Baldhere. "Eight sisters, Paitar? Eight?" The White Tower surely knew every move they intended, now.

"And I have five more," Tenobia put in as if announcing she had a new pair of slippers. "They found me just before I left Saldaea. By chance, I’m sure; they appeared as surprised as I was. Once they learned what I was doing—I still don’t know how they did, but they did—once they learned, I was sure they’d go scurrying to find Memara." Her brows furrowed in a momentary glare. Elaida had miscalculated badly in sending a sister to try bullying Tenobia. "Instead," she finished, "Illeisien and the rest were more intent on secrecy than I."

"Even so," Ethenielle insisted. "Thirteen sisters. All that is needed is for one of them to find some way to send a message. A few lines. A soldier or a maid intimidated. Does any of you think you can stop them?"

"The dice are out of the cup," Paitar said simply. What was done, was done. Arafellin were almost as odd as Saldaeans, in Ethenielle’s book.

"Further south," Easar added, "it may be well to have thirteen Aes Sedai with us." That brought a silence while the implications hung in the air. No one wanted to voice them. This was far different from facing the Blight.

Tenobia gave a sudden, shocking laugh. Her gelding tried to dance, but she settled him. "I mean to press south as fast as I can, but I invite you all to dine with me in my camp tonight. You can speak with Illeisien and her friends, and see whether your judgment matches mine. Perhaps tomorrow night we can all gather in Paitar’s camp and question his Coladara’s friends." The suggestion was so sensible, so obviously necessary, that it brought instant agreement.
Aisling Noon (who is, incidentally, a Tinker) and Nianh have not been seen in the Tower so far as we know. Why would they vanish without a trace? Were they removed by the Black Ajah? Is Tenobia's advisor suspect because she did not vanish without a trace? Why would Tenobia not suspect when Memara was sent rather than her own advisor, and when the other advisors did not return?

Other random info about the Black Hills: there are three stedding there, only one of which is mentioned by name outside the BWB (Jentoine, where Elaida sent a summons for masons, which was politely refused).

All of this connects nicely with the mystery of what, exactly, the Borderlanders are up to, and I feel like RJ was using the Black Hills to draw attention to the situation. The Borderlanders met there. Mazrim Taim escaped there. Careane and Osan'gar are both mentioned in connection, and Mistress Doweel herself is suspicious. The Aes Sedai that Siuan and Leane sent to capture Taim might be the ones with the Borderland rulers, since the numbers match up exactly. Or were they sent by Alviarin?

There are some more interesting parallels here.

In the passage where Taim's escape in the Black Hills was mentioned, Siuan's second pigeon was Moiraine's coded message: 'The sling has been used. The shepherd holds the sword.' In the prologue of A Crown of Swords, where Elaida mentions the summons to Jentoine for masons in the Black Hills, she holds in her hands a coded message from Galina: 'The ring has been placed in the bull's nose.'

Elaida had the opening point of view in the prologue of A Crown of Swords, and she had the opening point of view in one other prologue in the series, in The Fires of Heaven, where Mazrim Taim's escape is addressed, and also the Borderlands, particularly Tenobia:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - The Fires of Heaven
PROLOGUE - The First Sparks Fall

"There is apparently something happening in Shienar." That was Danelle, slight and often seemingly lost in a dream, the only Brown sister present. Green and Yellow also had only one sister apiece, and none of the three Ajahs was pleased about that. There were no Blues. Now Danelle's big blue eyes looked thoughtfully inward; an unnoticed ink stain smudge stained her cheek, and her dark gray wool dress was rumpled. "There are rumors of skirmishes. Not with Trollocs, and not Aiel, though raids through the Niamh Passes appear to have increased. Between Shienarans. Unusual for the Borderlands. They rarely fight each other."

"If they intend to have a civil war, they have chosen the proper time for it," Alviarin said coolly. Tall and slim and all in white silk, she was the only one without a shawl. The stole of the Keeper around her shoulders was white also, to show she had been raised from the White Ajah. Not Red, Elaida's former Ajah, as tradition held. Whites were always cool. "The Trollocs might as well have vanished. The entire Blight seems quiet enough for two farmers and a novice to guard."

Teslyn's bony fingers shuffled papers on her lap, though she did not look at them. One of four Red sisters there—more than any other Ajah—she ran Elaida a close second for severity, though no one had ever thought her beautiful. "Better perhaps if it did not be so quiet," Teslyn said, her Illianer accent strong. "I did receive a message this morning that the Marshal-General of Saldaea does have an army on the move. No toward the Blight, but in the opposite direction. South and east. He would no ever have done that if the Blight did no seem to be asleep."

"Then word of Mazrim Taim is seeping out." Alviarin could have been discussing the weather or the price of carpets instead of a potential disaster. Much effort had gone into capturing Taim, and as much into hiding his escape. No good to the Tower if the world learned they could not hold on to a false Dragon once he was taken. "And it seems that Queen Tenobia, or Davram Bashere, or both, thinks we cannot be trusted to deal with him again."

Dead quiet fell at the mention of Taim. The man could channel—he had been on his way to Tar Valon to be stilled, cut off from the One Power forever, when he was broken free—yet that was not what curbed tongues. Once the existence of a man able to channel the One Power had been the deepest anathema; hunting such men down was the main reason of existence for the Red, and every Ajah helped as it could. But now most of the women beyond the table shifted on their stools, refusing to meet each other's eyes, because speaking of Taim brought them too close to another subject they did not want to speak aloud. Even Elaida felt bile rise in her stomach.

Apparently Alviarin experienced no such reluctance. One corner of her mouth quirked momentarily in what might have been smile or grimace. "I will redouble our efforts to retake Taim. And I suggest that a sister be dispatched to counsel Tenobia. Someone used to overcoming the sort of resistance that young woman will put up." Others rushed to help fill the silence.

Joline shifted her green-fringed shawl on slender shoulders and smiled, though it seemed a bit forced. "Yes. She needs an Aes Sedai at her shoulder. Someone able to handle Bashere. He has excessive influence with Tenobia. He must move his army back where it can be used if the Blight wakes up." Too much bosom showed in the gap of her shawl, and her pale green silk was too snug, too clinging. And she smiled too much for Elaida's liking. Especially at men. Greens always did.

"The last thing we need now is another army on the march," Shemerin, the Yellow sister, said quickly. A slightly plump woman, she had somehow never really managed the outward calm of Aes Sedai; there was often a strain of anxiety around her eyes, and more so of late.

"And someone to Shienar," added Javindrha, another Red. Despite smooth cheeks, her angular face was hard enough to hammer nails. Her voice was harsh. "I don't like trouble of this sort in the Borderlands. The last thing we need is Shienar weakening itself to the point where a Trolloc army could break through."

"Perhaps." Alviarin nodded, considering. "But there are agents in Shienar—Red, I am sure, and perhaps others? —" The four Red sisters nodded tightly, reluctantly; no one else did. "—who can warn us if these small clashes become anything to worry us."

It was an open secret that every Ajah except the White, devoted to logic and philosophy as it was, had watchers and listeners scattered through the nations to varying degrees, though the Yellow network was believed to be a pitiful thing. There was nothing of sickness or Healing they could learn from those who could not channel. Some individual sisters had their own eyes-and-ears, though perhaps even more closely guarded than agents of the Ajahs. The Blues had had the most extensive, both Ajah and personal.

"As for Tenobia and Davram Bashere," Alviarin went on, "are we agreed that they must be dealt with by sisters?" She hardly waited for heads to nod. "Good. It is done. Memara will do nicely; she will take no nonsense from Tenobia, while never letting her see the leash. Now. Does anyone have fresh word out of Arad Doman or Tarabon? If we do not do something there soon, we may find that Pedron Niall and the Whitecloaks have sway from Bandar Eban to the Shadow Coast. Evanellein, you have something?" Arad Doman and Tarabon were racked by civil wars, and worse.

There was no order anywhere. Elaida was surprised they would bring it up.

"Only a rumor," the Gray sister replied. Her silk dress, matching the fringe on her shawl, was finely cut and scooped low at the neck. Often Elaida thought the woman should have been Green, so concerned was she with her looks and clothes. "Almost everyone in those poor lands is a refugee, including those who might send news. The Panarch Amathera has apparently vanished, and it seems an Aes Sedai may have been involved . . ."

Elaida's hand tightened on her stole. Nothing touched her face, but her eyes smoldered. The matter of the Saldaean army was done. At least Memara was Red; that was a surprise. But they had not even asked her opinion. It was done. The startling possibility that an Aes Sedai was involved in the disappearance of the Panarch – if this was not another of the thousand improbable tales that drifted from the western coast – could not take Elaida's mind from that. There were Aes Sedai scattered from the Aryth Ocean to the Spine of the World, and the Blues at least might do anything. Less than two months since they had all knelt to swear fealty to her as the embodiment of the White Tower, and now the decision was made without so much as a glance in her direction.

It happened too often, this slighting. Worst—most bitter of all, perhaps—they usurped her authority without even thinking of it. They knew how she had come to the stole, knew their aid had put it on her shoulders. She herself had been too much aware of that. But they presumed too far. It would soon be time to do something about that. But not quite yet.

...

"Is there any news of Elayne?" Andaya asked diffidently. A thin, birdlike little woman, outwardly timid despite Aes Sedai features, the second Gray looked an unlikely mediator, but was in fact one of the best. There were still faint traces of Tarabon in her voice. "Or Galad? If Morgase discovers that we have lost her stepson, she may begin to ask more questions concerning the whereabouts of her daughter, yes? And if she learns we have lost the Daughter-Heir, Andor may become as closed to us as Amadicia."

A few women shook their heads—there was no news, and Javindhra said, "A Red sister is in place in the Royal Palace. Newly raised, so she can easily pass for other than Aes Sedai." She meant that the woman had not yet taken on the agelessness that came with long use of the Power. Someone trying to guess the age of any woman in the study would have fumbled over a range of twenty years, and in some cases would be off by twice that. "She is well trained, though, quite strong, and a good observer. Morgase is absorbed in putting forward her claim to the Cairhienin throne." Several women shifted on their stools, and as if realizing she had stepped close to dangerous ground, Javindhra hurried on. "And her new lover, Lord Gaebril, seems to be keeping her occupied otherwise." Her thin mouth narrowed even further. "She is completely besotted with the man."

"He keeps her concentrated on Cairhien," Alviarin said. "The situation there is nearly as bad as in Tarabon and Arad Doman, with every House contending for the Sun Throne, and famine everywhere. Morgase will reestablish order, but it will take time for her to have the throne secure. Until that is done, she will have little energy left to worry about other matters, even the Daughter-Heir. And I set a clerk the task of sending occasional letters; the woman does a good imitation of Elayne's hand. Morgase will keep until we can secure proper control of her again."

"At least we still have her son in hand." Joline smiled.

"Gawyn do hardly be in hand," Teslyn said sharply. "Those Younglings of his do skirmish with Whitecloaks on both sides of the river. He does act on his own as much as at our direction."

"He will be brought under control," Alviarin said. Elaida was beginning to find that constant cool composure hateful.

"Speaking of the Whitecloaks," Danelle put in, "it appears that Pedron Niall is conducting secret negotiations, trying to convince Altara and Murandy to cede land to Illian, and thus keep the Council of Nine from invading one or both."

Safely back from the precipice, the women on the other side of the table nattered on, deciding whether the Lord Captain Commander's negotiations might gain too much influence for the Children of the Light. Perhaps they should be disrupted so the Tower could step in and replace him.

Elaida's mouth twisted. The Tower had often in its history been cautious of necessity—too many feared them, too many distrusted them—but it had never feared anything or anyone. Now, it feared.

...

"We are done, then," Alviarin said, rising smoothly from her stool. The others copied her, adjusting skirts and shawls in preparation for leaving. "In three days, I will expect —"

"Have I given you leave to go, daughters?" Those were the first words Elaida had spoken since telling them to be seated. They looked at her in surprise. Surprise!
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
  #2  
Old 01-15-2010, 11:38 AM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,127
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default There is a character limit for posts.

1. Danelle, a Mesaana suspect, mentions the troubles in Shienar that are assumed to have been a catalyst for the Borderlanders' decision to go south. We know that the troubles were begun because Hurin returned there from Falme with the news of the Dragon Reborn. And of course, when Taim was originally captured, it was because Rand's battle with Ishamael flashed across the sky in Saldaea, in the middle of a battle.

2. Alviarin dismisses the troubles in Shienar, saying that their agents will let them know if it gets out of hand. It's important to note that Danelle is not Black Ajah (or at least, she wasn't on Egwene's list that we know of), and that Alviarin has no idea who Mesaana is, so if Mesaana is indeed Danelle, Alviarin is ignorant of it.

3. Evanellein is Black. She was suspected of it before The Gathering Storm, for this comment about the troubles in Tanchico, and also for her calls to remove Elaida in Knife of Dreams. She was not on Verin's list, but she escaped at the same time as the other Blacks in the Tower. She was a Sitter for the Gray.

4. Javindhra might still be Black, as she was gone from the Tower when the purge happened, at the Black Tower with Pevara. Javindhra was suspect partly for the same reasons as Evanellein; she showed some amount of satisfaction at the idea that the truth about Elaida's mishaps (with Dumai's Wells and the Black Tower) would come out, and Javindhra has a reputation for being Elaida's lapdog. She also has knowledge of the Red sister that was being Compelled by Rahvin to report what he wished to the Tower; Rahvin says that those who served the Chosen in the Tower had told him right where to find her.

5. Teslyn and Joline are still unknowns, as they are with Mat and therefore escaped the purge. Egwene might know of them from Elayne and Nynaeve, but there is still nothing to say that she would have thought of them when she was reading Verin's list.

6. So far as we know, Aes Sedai never caught up with Bashere. Tenobia's decision to go south was apparently made after she learned that Bashere and Taim both followed Rand. Bashere met Rand in The Fires of Heaven, not long after this meeting.

7. Alviarin says that she will redouble her efforts to take Taim, but there is no further mention of the sisters that she sent to accomplish the task, and it seems doubtful that she would have allowed any Aes Sedai to take Taim. So, either she sent out Black sisters with some other purpose, or she did not send any besides Memara (who is probably a Black - Elaida noted that Memara was Red, and was happy about it, so it stands to reason that Alviarin chose one of her own).

Are the sisters with the Borderlanders those sent by Siuan, or those sent by Alviarin? All indication is that Tenobia's Aes Sedai did not join her until they left; Coladara's visitors, on the other hand, were presumably there as the plans were being made.

Did Mesaana have some hand in the Borderlanders' decision to go south? If so, then the plan goes back to Demandred, who heads the triumvirate of their alliance.

What do you guys think? I know that these are a lot of weak-ish and random connections, but I still think it's interesting.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
  #3  
Old 01-15-2010, 11:55 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 15,818
GonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond repute
Default

I think that the Black Hills are simply the Randland version of the middle of nowhere. And, as we all know, all sorts of interesting and suspicious things always happen in the middle of nowhere.
  #4  
Old 01-15-2010, 12:01 PM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,127
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

Well, sure. The fun is figuring out if they tie together or not, as they seem to. On a level that goes a little deeper than the random Black Hills quotes, there is the mystery of the Borderlanders. We have clues, and we should go forth and do some debate over them, or some such. Maybe we will find more clues.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
  #5  
Old 01-15-2010, 01:08 PM
Davian93's Avatar
Davian93 Davian93 is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 20,076
Davian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Well, Mount Rushmore is there...I'd have to assume some fairly large tourism based communities are also there. Its not that weird to be honest.

Its also something of a crossroads between the Borderlands and Tar Valon.


One question I've always had is why didnt Tar Valon officially annex its old lands back after Hawkwing's empire fell? They certainly have the power (financial and militarily) to do so but they've basically confined themselves to their city-state for the last 1000 years. I have to wonder if it wasn't some Black Ajah plot to limit the Tower's influence and help accelerate the decline of Randland following Hawkwing. A much more proactive Tower (the one that kidnapped kings and queens, ruled nations, etc) would have greatly bolstered the failing states that we've seen like Hardan, Caralain, etc.

Odd is all.
__________________
Bonded to Brita

"We caught them in an alley on skid row in downtown Philly and brought them down with Uzi's and dogs. I beat the shit out of one of the guys for resisting arrest. After that, I went home, fried up some tofu with strawberry preserves and melon sticky rice, laid down on the couch with my snuggie and ate rose petals in sweet daisy wine sauce and watched Mamma Mia on DVD and then cried myself to sleep."

Theoryland: Just Some Crazy In A Pot
  #6  
Old 01-15-2010, 01:16 PM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,127
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

They didn't reclaim the land because no one lived there.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
  #7  
Old 01-15-2010, 01:43 PM
FelixPax's Avatar
FelixPax FelixPax is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,612
FelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant future
Default Nice thread Terez!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Well, sure. The fun is figuring out if they tie together or not, as they seem to. On a level that goes a little deeper than the random Black Hills quotes, there is the mystery of the Borderlanders. We have clues, and we should go forth and do some debate over them, or some such. Maybe we will find more clues.
I mentioned the Black Hills recently in the same type of point of view.

Agree the clues, hints and connections between the Black Hills, Borderlander's armies adventure down south, and even the Shadow Coast area are there; all have many similarities tied to the Shadow's original plan I believe too.


These various connections of reminds me, a bit of two parallel events which occurred in Caemlyn:

Once a Grayman attempted to kill Rand with Aviendha and two Maidens were in the room...just before the Queen of Ghealdan's secret letter arrived by man on horseback...and of a suddenly, of all people Taim pops into the room and frys that captured Grayman with a fire weave killing him. And of course, Taim gets a chance to glance at the mysterious letter in question. While Rand wonders why Taim killed the grayman, let alone arrived when he did there.

Then later Elayne while in her Caemlyn rooms, is almost killed in a complex plan to place Daved Hanlon into a powerful job close to the new Queen to be of Andor. Dyelin almost died in that attack, and Daved gained a powerful job.


#1 - One of the parallels of the story is the Shadow seems to repeat its prior strategies, and tactics of doing business. Try to put a spy influencer close to the object of their desire:
  • Rand --> Taim,
  • Elayne --> Daved Hanlon,
  • Egwene --> Aran'gar,
  • Elaida --> Alviarin
  • Pedron Niall --> Jaichim Carridin (to dash Niall's plans)


Its logical to assume some of the Borderlanders Aes Sedai with Tenobia and the King of Kandor are associated with the Shadow, too: Black Ajah.

Just like its logical to assume their are agents of the Shadow in both the cities of Cairhien and Tear now, too.


Its unconfirmed but possible that these individuals are also spies for the Shadow:
  • Noal Charin --> Jaichim Carridin (to spy him); later Matrim Cauthon (I suspect too)
  • Ailil --> into plots surrounding Rand and nation of Cairhien.
  • Weiramon --> into plots surrounding Rand and nation of Tear.
  • Jaq Lounalt (secretary for Lady Sylvase of House Caeren) --> to torture & kill the darkfriends captured by Elayne in Andor. Maybe even is connected "Min views a red-hot iron and an axe above Elayne", in 'The Great Hunt' book, Chapter 43.)



#2 - The other parallel tactic the Shadow's agents use is a misdirection of one's end destination, so the prey is trapped.

As you mentioned Terez, Careane did attempted to push Elayne, Nynaeve, the Kin and Windfinders to head to the "Black Hills". Just as Be'lal and Mesaana pulled Nynaeve, Elayne, Egwene into a Black Ajah trap in the city of Tear, to use as bait to later capture Rand within the Stone. Noal Charin attempted to do the very same thing to Mat, Thom, Olver after learning about Moiraine's letter to save her from the Eelfinn's realm. Noal suggested looking in the Shadow Coast. The thing is, Noal did not have any advanced noticed that Mat was going to flee Ebou Dar in the middle of the night...so he had no real time to communicate with his "handlers" - Ishamael? Yes, Noal's exact part in the story is still unfolding.


The interesting part is in putting together all the known information to create a better picture, of where the storyline is heading and who's really a double-agent or triple-agent.


The areas of the Black Hills, Shadow Coast, the corridor of abandon lands between Amacidia to Altara and northwards up to bridge at Whitebridge Andor are particularly important zones for the Dark One's plans within the Westlands, I think. Steddings and their near by Waygates are another angle to look into deeper connections as well.


Somehow, no one has explained why or how Ogiers suddenly are living within formerly abandoned Stedding within the Shadow Coast area. Who are these Ogiers associated with? And why did they not let Loial close access to their Waygates, in both Shadow Coast Steddings?

Are they Darkfriend Ogiers? Or Seanchan Ogiers? Or Ogiers from someplace else, Elder Haman is clueless about?
__________________
"Surprising what you can dig out of books if you read long enough, isn't it?" -- Rand al'Thor, The Shadow Rising

For more see, @TinkerPride at Twitter.com

Last edited by FelixPax; 01-15-2010 at 04:23 PM.
  #8  
Old 01-15-2010, 01:44 PM
Ishara's Avatar
Ishara Ishara is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4,424
Ishara has disabled reputation
Send a message via MSN to Ishara
Default

Those are interesting connections T - you've up with quite a few in the past few days, eh?

I've always thought of the Black hills in conjunction with the Caralain Grass and Almoth Plain - places that were once great and are now desolate. In places like those, you never know what you'll find...

As to who the AS are...they have to someone's; they can't be rogues. Tenobia's AS timing fits really well with Suain & Leanne's, but then why didn't they a) go back to the Tower, or b) go to Salidar when they discovered Taim was gone? Paitr's...well I can see him turning a blind eye to strange goings on because of Kiruna. They may very well be Alviarhin's which means all or some may be Black.

Interesting...
__________________
Courage my friends, it's not too late for a better world. -- Tommy Douglas

Rand: You are an insensitive bastard!!!
Mat: And you ruined another hat!


It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by lightening. -- Calvin

"Gee, I wish I could do magic! Maybe I'll try!" --SDog

Official Vixen of Theoryland and Theoryland Siren

Grain Goddess, the Rood Inverse, the Mad Glomper

Last edited by Ishara; 01-15-2010 at 11:05 PM.
  #9  
Old 01-15-2010, 04:08 PM
FelixPax's Avatar
FelixPax FelixPax is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,612
FelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant future
Default Spire in the Black Hills, Dreams of future events with Egwene, Leilwin, and a sul'dam

How about moving for a few known facts to trying to put together a puzzle? Here goes....

Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
I think that the Black Hills are simply the Randland version of the middle of nowhere. And, as we all know, all sorts of interesting and suspicious things always happen in the middle of nowhere.
Well, that nowhere in the Black Hills once was territory of two Post-Trolloc War nations called Roemalle and Dal Calain. Before those two nations existed, the Black Hills with divided into the territorial control of Aramaelle and Coremanda.


It makes sense that some old to ancients items of the power, would be found here too. One of which was quoted earlier by Terez:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Path of Daggers book, Prologue - Ethenielle pov
Beyond Lomas the pass opened into a shallow bowl almost too small to be named a valley, with trees too widely spaced to be called a thicket. Leatherleaf and blue fir and three-needle pine held to some green along with a few oaks, but the rest were sheathed in brown if not bare-branched. To the south, however, lay what had made this spot a good choice for meeting. A slender spire like a column of gleaming golden lace lay slanting and partly buried in the bare hillside, a good seventy paces of it showing above the treetops. Every child in the Black Hills old enough to run off leading strings knew of it, but there was not a village inside four days’ travel, nor would anyone come within ten miles willingly. The stories of this place spoke of mad visions, of the dead walking, and death at touching the spire.

Ethenielle did not consider herself fanciful, yet she shivered slightly. Nianh said the spire was a fragment from the Age of Legends, and harmless. With luck, the Aes Sedai had no reason to recall that conversation of years ago. A pity the dead could not be made to walk, here. Legend said Kirukan had beheaded a false Dragon with her own hands, and borne two sons by another man who could channel. Or maybe the same one. She might have known how to go about their purpose and survive.



This golden spire in the Black Hill seems to of been described earlier in tEoW book by Bayle Doman as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Eye of the World book, Chapter 24 "Flight Down the Arinelle" - Rand pov with Bayle Domon, Mat, Thom
“Aye, lad, so they can. But can a child make the bones of those animals? In Tanchico they have them, all fastened together like the animal was. They stand in a part of the Panarch’s Palace where any can enter and see. The Breaking left a thousand wonders behind, and there been half a dozen empires or more since, some rivaling Artur Hawkwing’s, every one leaving things to see and find. Lightsticks and razorlace and heartstone. A crystal lattice covering an island, and it hums when the moon is up. A mountain hollowed into a bowl, and in its center, a silver spike a hundred spans high, and any who comes within a mile of it, dies. Rusted ruins, and broken bits, and things found on the bottom of the sea, things not even the oldest books know the meaning of. I’ve gathered a few, myself. Things you never dreamed of, in more places than you can see in ten lifetimes. That be the strangeness that will draw you on.”
I think there is a good possible of guessing, who, where, and the how of this below Dream:

Egwene's Dream of being 'saved' off a mountain side cliff by an unknown Seanchan woman with a sword over her shoulder (CoT, Chapter 20 'In the Night'):

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Crossroads of Twilight book, Chapter 20 'In the Night' - Egwene pov in a Dream
She was struggling up a narrow, rocky path along the face of a towering cliff. Clouds surrounded her, hiding the ground below and the crest above, yet she knew that both were very far away. She had to place her feet very carefully. The path was a cracked ledge barely wide enough for her to stand on with one shoulder pressed against the cliff, a ledge littered with stones as large as her fist that could turn under a misplaced step and send her hurtling over the edge. It almost seemed this was like the dreams of pushing millstones and pulling carts, yet she knew it was a true dream.
Abruptly, the ledge dropped away from under her with the crack of crumbling stone, and she caught frantically at the cliff, fingers scrabbling to find a hold. Her fingertips slid into a tiny crevice, and her fall stopped with a jolt that wrenched her arms. Feet dangling into the clouds, she listened to the falling stone crash against the cliff until the sound faded to nothing without the stone ever hitting the ground. Dimly, she could see the broken ledge to her left. Ten feet away, it might as well have been a mile off for all the chance she had of reaching it. In the other direction, the mists hid whatever remained of the path, but she thought it had to be farther away still. There was no strength in her arms. She could not pull herself up, only hang there by her fingertips until she fell. The edge of the crevice seemed as sharp as a knife under her fingers.
Suddenly a woman appeared, clambering down the sheer side of the cliff out of the clouds, making her way as deftly as if she were walking down stairs. There was a sword strapped to her back. Her face wavered, never settling clearly, but the sword seemed as solid as the stone. The woman reached Egwene’s level and held out one hand. “We can reach the top together,” she said in a familiar drawling accent.

#1 - Who is the Seanchan savior? Leilwin Shipless, who is Bayle Domon's wife now.

#2 - Where is the mountain cliff located likely? In the Black Hills.
"a shallow bowl almost too small to be named a valley" = "A mountain hollowed into a bowl"

"A slender spire like a column of gleaming golden lace lay slanting and partly buried in the bare hillside, a good seventy paces of it showing above the treetops" = "in its center, a silver spike a hundred spans high"
#3 - How would Leilwin Shipless, Bayle Domon end up meeting Egwene? Likely in Caemlyn, either before or after she come to visit the area to see why Aes Sedai sisters have disappeared all going for the Black Tower. Leilwin & Bayle are both in Caemlyn now, because Verin Sedai moved Mat's group army there, in tGS book. Meaning there's a good possibility for a random meeting.


Relatedly but separately there is another Egwene Dream of her and another unknown Seanchan women confronting Rand (TDR book, Chapter 48). The three Aes Sedai with Mat's group also include former Seanchan sul'dam now being trained to become Aes Sedai by Joline: Bethamin Zeami, Seta Zarbey. One of whom I believe will take part in that confrontation with Egwene with Rand later on. Bethamin?

In sum, Egwene should have the opportunity to meet Bethamin, Seta (again!), and Leilwin Shipless in Andor soon enough. Elayne should remember Seta Zarby, well from her experiences at Falme, too. By coming to Caemlyn, Egwene would met both necessary Seanchan women to fulfill her Dreams of future events.


Likewise Leilwin's husband, Bayle Domon's just might point Egwene towards the Black Hills, in the final book I think, because it seems to fit together. That "Spire" in a bowl, valley is probably a sa'angreal, maybe even the one referred to by Lanfear to Rand once before.

I have not heard anyone speculate about this "Spire" before...is there another interpretation of this "Spire" around?

---------------------------------------------

Elayne's storyline seems like it will be almost as large if not larger in the next book, as Egwene's was in 'The Gathering Storm' book.

----------------------------------------------
__________________
"Surprising what you can dig out of books if you read long enough, isn't it?" -- Rand al'Thor, The Shadow Rising

For more see, @TinkerPride at Twitter.com
  #10  
Old 01-15-2010, 05:14 PM
FelixPax's Avatar
FelixPax FelixPax is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,612
FelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant future
Default Andor's prior Grassland nations: Aldeshar, Caembarin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishara View Post
I've always thought of the Black hills in conjunction with the Caralain Grass and Almoth Plain - places that were once great and are now desolate. In places like those, you never know what you'll find...
Parts of the Caralain Grass once were within the post-Trolloc nations which now partially make-up Andor currently....



Two of the seven former nations which Andor was created out of, controlled a good size chunk of that Grasslands years and years ago. Those two nations Aldeshar and Caembarin.

Aldeshar (red color)
Caembarin (blueish purple color)
Fasashelle (yellow color)
Nerevan (light blue or aqua type color)
Esandara (light green color)
Shandalle (orange color)
Khodomar (bright light purple color)


Andor's current borders at the start of the series are expressed, by the texture of bricks applied. While a texture of "solid color" alone, means that those lands have been abandoned in the current age and claimed by no one actively.


The sheer size of the unclaimed Caembarin, Aldeshar lands is quite surprising even to me, after all these years of following and reading this series. Only after applying the land borders of all thirty the post-Trolloc war nations to the more current 3rd Age Westlands maps, was I really able to grasp the large changes. Let alone wonder about the so-called thrown together nation of Murandy versus say Andor and Cairhien. Murandy contains only parts two prior nations, while Andor contains parts seven prior nations and Cairhien contains parts of five former nations within these current borders.


For future storyline purposes, notice that the current nations of Andor and Murandy each contain part of the prior nations of Aldeshar and Nerevan. There's a good reason why Murandy and Andor have fought for ages, each was birthed from common origins, the nation of Aldeshar & Nerevan, and fought over the spoils of lands & profits.




Many of the important cities of the Westlands are near prior multinational borders:

The city of Cairhien was near the borders corners of former four nations: Shandalle, Ileande, Tova, and even the city-nation of Tar Valon to its northeast-northwest.

The city of Aringil once was part of Khodomar, and was near the borders of Caembarin, Shandalle, Esandara, Tova. Besides being a major river port town location.

The small city of Four Kings is at the intersect of three old nations literally: Aldeshar, Caembarin, and Nerevan.



Sidenote: that I did outline Shiota's boundaries as well, in a flat purple color, to the south from Farashelle (west) to Esandara (east).
__________________
"Surprising what you can dig out of books if you read long enough, isn't it?" -- Rand al'Thor, The Shadow Rising

For more see, @TinkerPride at Twitter.com
  #11  
Old 01-15-2010, 05:14 PM
Crispin's Crispian's Avatar
Crispin's Crispian Crispin's Crispian is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Oregon, USA
Posts: 4,069
Crispin's Crispian has a reputation beyond reputeCrispin's Crispian has a reputation beyond reputeCrispin's Crispian has a reputation beyond reputeCrispin's Crispian has a reputation beyond reputeCrispin's Crispian has a reputation beyond reputeCrispin's Crispian has a reputation beyond reputeCrispin's Crispian has a reputation beyond reputeCrispin's Crispian has a reputation beyond reputeCrispin's Crispian has a reputation beyond reputeCrispin's Crispian has a reputation beyond reputeCrispin's Crispian has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FelixPax View Post

#2 - Where is the mountain cliff located likely? In the Black Hills.
"a shallow bowl almost too small to be named a valley" = "A mountain hollowed into a bowl"

"A slender spire like a column of gleaming golden lace lay slanting and partly buried in the bare hillside, a good seventy paces of it showing above the treetops" = "in its center, a silver spike a hundred spans high"
But this doesn't really make sense. The Borderlanders met near the spire, and there's no mention of cliffs. Indeed, it's a shallow bowl, which would indicate concavity, not sheer walls.

Ordinarily I wouldn't nitpick this (OK, I might), but your theory rests on the Dream taking place here, when the connection is very tenuous.
__________________
"Pizza topped with justice." -Liz
  #12  
Old 01-15-2010, 06:14 PM
Sukoto Sukoto is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Eastern Washington
Posts: 405
Sukoto is a splendid one to beholdSukoto is a splendid one to beholdSukoto is a splendid one to beholdSukoto is a splendid one to beholdSukoto is a splendid one to beholdSukoto is a splendid one to beholdSukoto is a splendid one to beholdSukoto is a splendid one to beholdSukoto is a splendid one to behold
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
What do you guys think? I know that these are a lot of weak-ish and random connections, but I still think it's interesting.
First, about Danelle. IIRC, Danelle was very instrumental in Siuan's downfall. I don't recall anything about the other two on Egwene's list of sisters who had to be Mesaana. The evidence is in favor of Danelle, even if it is only because we have less information about the other two.

Second, the suspicion surrounding the Aes Sedai among the Borderlanders does suggest some interference from one of the Chosen. For me, the thing that almost disqualifies Demandred as being among the borderlanders is that he said his 'rule is secure.' The scene in PoD with the Borderland rulers suggests that the group isn't ruled by any one person. But who knows if the words were meant literally or figuratively, or if Demandred secured his rule over the Borderlander armies just recently.
__________________
"I could have you turned to the Great Lord whatever you want or believe. There are ways." [He] paused, perhaps to see if [his] words had had any effect.
  #13  
Old 01-15-2010, 09:44 PM
nameless nameless is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 1,254
nameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant future
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FelixPax View Post
  • Noal Charin --> Jaichim Carridin (to spy him); later Matrim Cauthon (I suspect too)
  • Ailil --> into plots surrounding Rand and nation of Cairhien.
  • Weiramon --> into plots surrounding Rand and nation of Tear.
  • Jaq Lounalt (secretary for Lady Sylvase of House Caeren) --> to torture & kill the darkfriends captured by Elayne in Andor. Maybe even is connected "Min views a red-hot iron and an axe above Elayne", in 'The Great Hunt' book, Chapter 43.)



#2 - The other parallel tactic the Shadow's agents use is a misdirection of one's end destination, so the prey is trapped.

As you mentioned Terez, Careane did attempted to push Elayne, Nynaeve, the Kin and Windfinders to head to the "Black Hills". Just as Be'lal and Mesaana pulled Nynaeve, Elayne, Egwene into a Black Ajah trap in the city of Tear, to use as bait to later capture Rand within the Stone. Noal Charin attempted to do the very same thing to Mat, Thom, Olver after learning about Moiraine's letter to save her from the Eelfinn's realm. Noal suggested looking in the Shadow Coast. The thing is, Noal did not have any advanced noticed that Mat was going to flee Ebou Dar in the middle of the night...so he had no real time to communicate with his "handlers" - Ishamael? Yes, Noal's exact part in the story is still unfolding.


The interesting part is in putting together all the known information to create a better picture, of where the storyline is heading and who's really a double-agent or triple-agent.
Some good points overall, but I felt compelled to nitpick on two details.

1) Careane and the Sea Folk: she did mention the Black Hills as a misdirection, yes, but was she acting in her capacity as Black Ajah or as regular Aes Sedai? Mat suspects that the whole list of possible destinations everyone offered, including the ones proposed by Elayne, Nynaeve, etc., was facetious and intended to push the Sea Folk into agreeing to go to Reanne's farm because all the other choices offered were so far from the coast. If he's right then Careane was following Elayne and Nynaeve's plan rather than acting on the Shadow's behalf (though she certainly would have reported their destination to the Shadow if they'd hadn't been chased away by Seanchan before she got a chance to).

2) Noal Charin: Noal has exhibited memory gaps similar to the blackouts caused by exposure to Compulsion, but I do not believe he is actually a Darkfriend for several reasons. Firstly, Darkfriends have been ordered to kill Mat on sight. Luca's show travels far too slowly to outrun that order, and if Noal were a Darkfriend he would have had ample opportunity to hear about the death notice in one of the many towns they stopped near. Secondly, "Ba'alzamon" bragged about turning Jain Farstrider into a tool, which suggests that Farstrider was tricked or manipulated (or Compelled) rather than knowingly converted into service of the Shadow. Noal is likely a ticking time bomb, yes, but I believe whatever he's been Compelled to do is more complicated than just spying if only because if he were a spy he would have had ample chance to send reports about Mat's activities every time the show stopped next to a town with carrier pigeons and his handler would have an opportunity to send back new orders (ie "kill Mat").
  #14  
Old 01-15-2010, 11:13 PM
Ishara's Avatar
Ishara Ishara is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4,424
Ishara has disabled reputation
Send a message via MSN to Ishara
Default

Felix, your map is crazy. Honestly, how long did that take?!

I have a major nitpick though....the spire mentioned in the Black Hills with the Borderlanders is gold, and the spire Doman mentions is silver. Not to mention one is clearly described as slanting out of the earth and the other is pointing straight up. This is from the quotes - do you really think that the significant difference in descriptions in inconsequential?

Aside from the "bowl" of land, I can't at all see that the two pieces of land described are one and the same.
__________________
Courage my friends, it's not too late for a better world. -- Tommy Douglas

Rand: You are an insensitive bastard!!!
Mat: And you ruined another hat!


It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by lightening. -- Calvin

"Gee, I wish I could do magic! Maybe I'll try!" --SDog

Official Vixen of Theoryland and Theoryland Siren

Grain Goddess, the Rood Inverse, the Mad Glomper
  #15  
Old 01-15-2010, 11:34 PM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,127
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishara View Post
Felix, your map is crazy. Honestly, how long did that take?!
I believe that is one of the maps made by Dom at 13th Depository. He's been working on them for some time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishara
I have a major nitpick though....the spire mentioned in the Black Hills with the Borderlanders is gold, and the spire Doman mentions is silver.
Yes, that's why I didn't mention it.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
  #16  
Old 01-16-2010, 05:29 PM
Marie Curie 7's Avatar
Marie Curie 7 Marie Curie 7 is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,235
Marie Curie 7 has a reputation beyond reputeMarie Curie 7 has a reputation beyond reputeMarie Curie 7 has a reputation beyond reputeMarie Curie 7 has a reputation beyond reputeMarie Curie 7 has a reputation beyond reputeMarie Curie 7 has a reputation beyond reputeMarie Curie 7 has a reputation beyond reputeMarie Curie 7 has a reputation beyond reputeMarie Curie 7 has a reputation beyond reputeMarie Curie 7 has a reputation beyond reputeMarie Curie 7 has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
Aisling Noon (who is, incidentally, a Tinker) and Nianh have not been seen in the Tower so far as we know. Why would they vanish without a trace? Were they removed by the Black Ajah? Is Tenobia's advisor suspect because she did not vanish without a trace? Why would Tenobia not suspect when Memara was sent rather than her own advisor, and when the other advisors did not return?
I don't know what happened to Nianh, but Aisling did make it back to the White Tower. And then she must have been sent on the expedition with Toveine and the others to the Black Tower, because the next time we see her is at Algarin's manor and she is bonded to one of Logain's Asha'man:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE: Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 20 - The Golden Crane

Outside, not far from the house, she could see a pair of those black-coated Asha'man, and the sisters bonded to them. She had avoided that whole lot as much as possible - the Asha'man for obvious reasons, the sisters because they supported Elaida - yet you could not spend time in the same house with people, even a house as large and rambling as Algarin's, and avoid coming to recognize them. Arel Malevin was a Cairhienin who seemed even wider than he actually was because he stood barely chest-high to Lan, Donalo Sandomere a Tairen with a garnet in his left ear and his gray-streaked beard trimmed to a point and oiled, although she doubted very much that his creased, leathery face belonged to a noble. Malevin had bonded Aisling Noon, a fierce-eyed Green who peppered her speech with Borderland oaths that sometimes made Lan wince. Nynaeve wished she understood them, but he refused to explain. Sandomere's captive was Ayako Norsoni, a diminutive White with wavy waist-length black hair who was nearly as brown-skinned as a Domani. She seemed shy, a rarity among Aes Sedai. Both women wore their fringed shawls. The captives almost always did, perhaps as gestures of defiance. But then, they seemed to get on strangely well with the men. Often Nynaeve had seen them chatting companionably, hardly the behavior of defiant prisoners. And she suspected that Logain and Gabrelle were not the only pair sharing a bed outside wedlock. It was disgraceful!
As far as why Memara was sent to Tenobia, I got the impression that Tenobia did not have an Aes Sedai advisor. From one of the quotes that you gave previously:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE: Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Sparks Fall

Apparently Alviarin experienced no such reluctance. One corner of her mouth quirked momentarily in what might have been smile or grimace. "I will redouble our efforts to retake Taim. And I suggest that a sister be dispatched to counsel Tenobia. Someone used to overcoming the sort of resistance that young woman will put up."

Others rushed to help fill the silence.

Joline shifted her green-fringed shawl on slender shoulders and smiled, though it seemed a bit forced. "Yes. She needs an Aes Sedai at her shoulder. Someone able to handle Bashere. He has excessive influence with Tenobia. He must move his army back where it can be used if the Blight wakes up." Too much bosom showed in the gap of her shawl, and her pale green silk was too snug, too clinging. And she smiled too much for Elaida's liking. Especially at men. Greens always did.
On the other hand, another of the quotes you gave from Ethenielle sort of makes it sound like all the Borderlanders had Aes Sedai advisors:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - The Path of Daggers
PROLOGUE - Deceptive Appearances

A word caught Ethenielle's ear and jerked her upright in her saddle. She should have been paying attention; too much was at stake. "Aes Sedai?" she said sharply. "What about Aes Sedai?" Save for Paitar's, their White Tower advisors had all left at news of the troubles in the Tower, her own Nianh and Easar's Aisling vanishing without a trace. If Aes Sedai had gained a hint of their plans . . . Well, Aes Sedai always had plans of their own. Always. She would dislike discovering that she was putting her hands into two hornet nests, not just one.
But Ethenielle only mentions her advisor along with Paitar's and Easar's, not Tenobia's - so I suspect that Tenobia did not have one. And there's no other mention of any Aes Sedai advisor for Tenobia that I could find. Ethenielle also thought that Tenobia only wanted advice from soldiers, perhaps also hinting at her lack of an Aes Sedai advisor:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - The Path of Daggers
PROLOGUE - Deceptive Appearances

"Turn back?" a young woman's high voice demanded behind her. Tenobia of Saldaea galloped into the gathering, drawing her white gelding up so that he reared flamboyantly. Thick lines of pearls marched down the dark gray sleeves of her narrow-skirted riding habit, while red-and-gold embroidery swirled thickly to emphasize the narrowness of her waist and the roundness of her bosom. Tall for a woman, she managed to be pretty if not beautiful despite a nose that was overbold at best. Large tilted eyes of a dark deep blue certainly helped, but so did a confidence in herself so strong that she seemed to glow with it. As expected, the Queen of Saldaea was accompanied only by Kalyan Ramsin, one of her numerous uncles, a scarred and grizzled man with the face of an eagle and thick mustaches that curved down around his mouth. Tenobia Kazadi tolerated the counsel of soldiers, but no one else. "I will not turn back," she went on fiercely, "whatever the rest of you do. I sent my dear Uncle Davram to bring me the head of the false Dragon Mazrim Taim, and now he and Taim both follow this al'Thor, if I can believe half what I hear. I have close to fifty thousand men behind me, and whatever you decide, I will not turn back until my uncle and al'Thor learn exactly who rules Saldaea."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
4. Javindhra might still be Black, as she was gone from the Tower when the purge happened, at the Black Tower with Pevara. Javindhra was suspect partly for the same reasons as Evanellein; she showed some amount of satisfaction at the idea that the truth about Elaida's mishaps (with Dumai's Wells and the Black Tower) would come out, and Javindhra has a reputation for being Elaida's lapdog. She also has knowledge of the Red sister that was being Compelled by Rahvin to report what he wished to the Tower; Rahvin says that those who served the Chosen in the Tower had told him right where to find her.
Egwene did list off all the Black Sitters known to Verin, though, including Duhara, who was also out of the Tower at the time of the purge. Javindhra's behavior has always seemed kind of suspicious, though, so if she really is Black then she's one of the few that Verin missed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
Are the sisters with the Borderlanders those sent by Siuan, or those sent by Alviarin? All indication is that Tenobia's Aes Sedai did not join her until they left; Coladara's visitors, on the other hand, were presumably there as the plans were being made.
The other reason that it makes sense that they're the ones sent by Siuan is that they didn't want to be known by Memara. Siuan presumably chose sisters that she trusted with the task of hunting down Taim, so they would be loyal to her rather than to Elaida.
  #17  
Old 01-16-2010, 06:43 PM
FelixPax's Avatar
FelixPax FelixPax is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,612
FelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant future
Default Maps, and more maps

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
I believe that is one of the maps made by Dom at 13th Depository. He's been working on them for some time.
Actually this particular map is a creation of mine, not Dom's at 13th Depositary blog:






I separately created this map of current nations surrounding the once past nation of Shiota, which was a post-Trolloc War nation:






What I noticed in particular is all the solid color areas, which no one nation claimed or governs actively now.

The solid color of orange in the south almost links the former Shiota lands, in purple, and Ghealdan lands in blue, with the former nation of Fasashelle, colored in yellow, which abuts the town of Whitebridge.

That corridor is the reason why I think the Perrin found Darkhound tracks in the area, many books ago. And why Trollocs attacked Tylee's Seanchan just outside of Ebou Dar, 30-ish miles away (tGS, Prologue).


There is this slightly more complex version of the changes since the Trollocs Wars up to the current 3rd Age nations as well:





It did take quite a bit of time to piece everything together. Yet it wasn't too difficult as there were to maps of the same scale to work from to mesh everything together. Dom had a far more difficult job, creating his maps with fewer hard clues to work with in many cases. His maps are much nicer to behold for the eye than mine. We each had different aims in mind for our mapping goals.




The other surprising thing is how many of the current nations have been created out of the remains of prior nations. Be it Illian, Andor, Cairhien, Saldaea, or even Arad Doman. While other nations have a history of losing land over time: Amacidia, Altara.


Tarabon and Amacidia once each controlled the Shadow Coast, but how and why did neither of these nations ever re-take these lands with prime fishing grounds off coast is a good question. Why do Illian fisherman fish off the Shadow Coast early in the series, while either Amacidia or Tarabon could of had an economic monopoly of these fishing grounds yet neither sought too?

Why did the now dead King of Amadicia have as part of his titles, "Guardian of the Southern Gate"? What is there to guard against to the south?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord of Chaos book, Chapter Prologue "The First Message" - Morgase pov with Ailron
Ailron, Anointed by the Light, King and Defender of Amadicia, Guardian of the Southern Gate, was not as handsome as rumor made him, but then, Morgase had suspected when she first met him, years ago, that he might be the source of those rumors himself.
Is there a good reason why Amacidia's southern border is a long river?

Is Amacidia's border there, because they know Trollocs do not like to cross large flowing deep bodies of water (tEoW book)?
But that explanation does not give us a cause to explain the reason for Tarabon's own southern border.

I hope Amathera's character in the next book or two, can answer these open questions as to why are the borders are where they are (cause). And what Amacidia is guarding against too.
__________________
"Surprising what you can dig out of books if you read long enough, isn't it?" -- Rand al'Thor, The Shadow Rising

For more see, @TinkerPride at Twitter.com

Last edited by FelixPax; 01-16-2010 at 09:43 PM. Reason: Fixed accidential repeating of one map twice, and added the more 'complex map' finally
  #18  
Old 01-16-2010, 06:49 PM
the silent speaker the silent speaker is offline
Ancient
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 168
the silent speaker has a spectacular aura aboutthe silent speaker has a spectacular aura about
Default

I just want to note that there's no evidence of Ogier suddenly repopulating old stedding. There were abandoned stedding in the Shadow Coast, and later Ogier living in stedding in the Shadow Coast, but nothing to indicate that they were the same stedding. It's likely (since the Shadow Coast is an isolated area) that these are two completely different sets.

P.S. Dal Calain is a Jordan Special. Mat remembers it has having "vanished in the Trolloc Wars."
__________________
Paranoia is the delusion that your enemies don't hate each other as much as they hate you.

Always bring a knife to a gunfight. Bring a gun also.
  #19  
Old 01-16-2010, 08:34 PM
FelixPax's Avatar
FelixPax FelixPax is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,612
FelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant futureFelixPax has a brilliant future
Default Same "Spire" indeed. Mystery of the Shadow Coast Ogiers...who are they?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishara View Post
I have a major nitpick though....the spire mentioned in the Black Hills with the Borderlanders is gold, and the spire Doman mentions is silver. Not to mention one is clearly described as slanting out of the earth and the other is pointing straight up. This is from the quotes - do you really think that the significant difference in descriptions in inconsequential?
Bayle Domon knew of spire by "story", while Ethanelle "saw it" firsthand. The differences between the two accounts can be seen changes to that area with the spire over time.

We don't know when the story that Bayle heard was created. Is it an ancient story, or something far more recent?


As for the coloring differences of the two "Spires", look at what Ethenielle herself mentions of the sky, just before seeing that "Spire":

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Path of Daggers book, Chapter Prologue "Deceptive Appearances" - Ethenielle pov
Ethenielle had seen mountains lower than these misnamed Black Hills, great lopsided heaps of half-buried boulders, webbed with steep twisting passes. A number of those passes would have given a goat pause. You could travel three days through drought-withered forests and brown-grassed meadows without seeing a single sign of human habitation, then suddenly find yourself within half a day of seven or eight tiny villages, all ignorant of the world. The Black Hills were a rugged place for farmers, away from the trade routes, and harsher now than usual. A gaunt leopard that should have vanished at the sight of men watched from a steep slope, not forty paces away, as she rode past with her armored escort. Westward, vultures wheeled patient circles like an omen. Not a cloud marred the blood-red sun, yet there were clouds of a sort. When the warm wind blew, it raised walls of dust.
The effects of changes to the day's lighting, is why the "Spire" appears a golden color:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Path of Dagger book
"To the south, however, lay what had made this spot a good choice for meeting. A slender spire like a column of gleaming golden lace lay slanting and partly buried in the bare hillside, a good seventy paces of it showing above the treetops.
Even the very chapter title of the Prologue, should give a hint that not all, is what it seems in this Chapter "Deceptive Appearances".


As for the differences between a "bowl" and a "valley" in the description, have you ever visited areas prone to earthquakes and/or land shifts after a heavy snow? Let alone after likely years and years of no one making an effort to clean up the environmental damages done to an area? As no one willingly tries nor wants to visit this place with the "spire":

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Path of Daggers book, Chapter Prologue "Deceptive Appearances"
. Every child in the Black Hills old enough to run off leading strings knew of it, but there was not a village inside four days’ travel, nor would anyone come within ten miles willingly.



The heights of the two "spire" descriptions are reasonable close, if one assumes the trees arise up to about 30 spans in the air. That a fair assumption, as trees grow to heights far greater in real life. Likewise the climates of the Black Hills do seem similar to the Sierra Mountains in California, home to some very tall trees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Eye of the World, Chapter 24
A mountain hollowed into a bowl, and in its center, a silver spike a hundred spans high, and any who comes within a mile of it, dies.
A span is equal to two paces, and 1000 spans equal a mile in length (source: The World of Robert Jordan, Wheel of Time book, Chapter 'The World After the Breaking')

Then there is the fact that Ethenielle, herself notes that the "Spire" is partially buried, as if it once was not buried:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Path of Daggers, Chapter Prologue
A slender spire like a column of gleaming golden lace lay slanting and partly buried in the bare hillside, a good seventy paces of it showing above the treetops.

If 1000 spans = 1 mile = 5280 feet. One span is equal to 5.280 feet in length. 70 times 5.28 equals 369.6 feet.
30 times 5.28 feet equals 158.4 feet.

The trees Ethenielle views block at most roughly 158.4 feet of that "Spire" from her view, while the remaining viewable "Spire" is 369.6 feet of length up into the air above. What is unknown is how much of that 30 spans of difference between Bayle's account (100 spans) and Ethenielle's account (70 spans) of this "Spire" is buried versus being blocked from view by recent years tree growth.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Speaker
I just want to note that there's no evidence of Ogier suddenly repopulating old stedding. There were abandoned stedding in the Shadow Coast, and later Ogier living in stedding in the Shadow Coast, but nothing to indicate that they were the same stedding. It's likely (since the Shadow Coast is an isolated area) that these are two completely different sets.
Elder Haman said all the Steddings in the Shadow Coast were abandoned (LoC book). It does not matter, which of the two Steddings in the Shadow Coast one referring to either. As neither of the two Steddings, allowed Loial to close their Waygates entrances, as Rand wanted (LoC & KoD books).

The point stands still, neither of those Steddings in the Shadow Coast area should of had any Ogiers, let alone Ogier Elders living within them . Elder Haman was right about the abandon Stedding close to Paerish Swar, as we saw in tGS book.

Ogiers were found, where they shouldn't have been found at all...in the Shadow Coast Steddings.
__________________
"Surprising what you can dig out of books if you read long enough, isn't it?" -- Rand al'Thor, The Shadow Rising

For more see, @TinkerPride at Twitter.com

Last edited by FelixPax; 01-16-2010 at 09:12 PM.
  #20  
Old 01-18-2010, 09:49 PM
Davian93's Avatar
Davian93 Davian93 is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 20,076
Davian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
They didn't reclaim the land because no one lived there.
That's completely untrue...we know that there are villages in the Black Hills and all around Tar Valon...we also know there'd be more if there was protection from a gov't...what was Hardan had villages that were fortified as Shienar and Cairhien simply didn't want to protect them. Some parts are unpopulated but we have enough clues to know that there are still some settlements in the area. TV has the power and money to have built settlements, fortifications, etc...but they chose to isolate themselves.
__________________
Bonded to Brita

"We caught them in an alley on skid row in downtown Philly and brought them down with Uzi's and dogs. I beat the shit out of one of the guys for resisting arrest. After that, I went home, fried up some tofu with strawberry preserves and melon sticky rice, laid down on the couch with my snuggie and ate rose petals in sweet daisy wine sauce and watched Mamma Mia on DVD and then cried myself to sleep."

Theoryland: Just Some Crazy In A Pot
 


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:51 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.