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  #61  
Old 02-15-2017, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
It should matter to his wife. But why should it matter to us? If we're not going to care about FDR and JFK, why should we care about Bill? The only thing that should matter here is whether it was consensual. And there is nothing to indicate that it wasn't.
Aside from the fact that it's the fucking President of the United States and an intern? With that kind of power dichotomy in the workplace, there is ALWAYS a question of consent. I've done enough of the No Zone kind of sexual harassment in my time (and now run my own business, and see it from the other side) to know that kind of relationship is highly inappropriate and potentially illegal, depending on the rules in place. I don't see how any reasonable person can think that the President carrying out an extramarital and, importantly, secret affair isn't highly inappropriate and a matter of public concern. How many spy stories involve the same exact scenario where someone gets entrapped by a honeypot and then blackmailed? Not that this is a Robert Ludlum novel, but if you can't see the potential danger in this situation, and therefore the public interest, then you need to remove the biased glasses you're wearing.

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Don't see how any reasonable person could in any way equate Bill's situation to what happened at either PSU or Baylor. If you want to find a similar example to Bill's in the coaching world you certainly can - Bobby Petrino comes to mind immediately...
Wasn't trying to.

I just think Bill Clinton gets lionized by the left for no apparent reason. He was a serial adulterer, it seems, a complete sleazeball, and to my mind accomplished very little of positive note in his terms.

People went nuts when Donald Trump was revealed to have walked into the dressing room of the Miss America pageant. Which is creepy, no doubt, but at least he has a compelling reason to do so (he owned the event). Can you imagine if Bill Clinton had lived in the twitter era? It would be a constant news cycle of scandal.

And, of course, he did lie under oath. Even if it was "semantic", the intent was to mislead. When both the style and intent are both mendacious, I feel pretty safe in condemning the accused as an unrepentant liar. Whether it was a political hit job is, to my mind, completely immaterial. You want your reputation to stay burnished? Tell the truth.
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  #62  
Old 02-15-2017, 05:26 PM
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I don't see how any reasonable person can think that the President carrying out an extramarital and, importantly, secret affair isn't highly inappropriate and a matter of public concern.
I do not care if the president, or any politician, cheats on their spouse. It is not my concern. It is not my business. So long as they are both consenting adults, it simply does not matter to me. I don't think any less of FDR because he carried on an affair throughout his presidency. Nor about JFK. The only thing about the Monica situation that bothers me, is Bill's initial mishandling of the scandal when it had come to light. Not that it had happened. I don't care at all about that.

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People went nuts when Donald Trump was revealed to have walked into the dressing room of the Miss America pageant. Which is creepy, no doubt, but at least he has a compelling reason to do so (he owned the event).
It was their age. This wasn't about the Miss America pageant, it was the Miss Teen USA pageant.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b0d505a46b1725

These were children.

I see these as two distinctly different types of situations. Is Bill sleazy? Yes. Is he brilliant? Yes. A gifted politician? Yes. If I could answer yes on those last two points with Trump, moreover, if I agreed with him on anything that he was doing in terms of policy, I likely would be far less bothered by him. Trump is sleazy. If he was only sleazy I'd be far less bothered by him being president. It's his incompetence and his awful policies that are the real problem. His personality certainly adds an extra layer of disgust, but he would still be a disaster as president even if he seemed moral. Take for example Pence. I'd be no more happy with him as president than with Trump.

You may well consider, as hinted above, that this is unreasonable of me. So be it. Either way, I'm not sure why we are having this discussion at all on a topic about rape cover-ups at universities. The Monica situation was a cover-up, but it was not a rape cover-up.
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  #63  
Old 02-15-2017, 05:51 PM
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More on topic, the situation at MSU (Michigan State), still unfolding, is disturbingly reminiscent of what happened at PSU.

The main scandal, which may well take down their entire athletic department eventually, as well as mire them in civil and criminal litigation, was concerning a famous staff member that they long sought to insulate and protect against recrimination and condemnation, Nasser, the gymnastics doctor whose activities went on for decades, both at MSU, and with the national and international gymnastics, as well as with various other women's teams at MSU.

http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/...s_told_in.html

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A former Michigan State University softball player says she told multiple MSU athletic trainers as early as 2000 that Dr. Larry Nassar was penetrating her vagina during medical treatments, according to the woman's attorneys.

Tiffany Thomas Lopez has joined a lawsuit with 15 other alleged victims of Nassar, then a MSU faculty member and physician at the university's sports clinic, according to a press release issued today by attorney John Manly, a partner in Manly, Stewart & Finaldi in Los Angeles.

The allegations are the latest in a burgeoning scandal involving Nassar, 53, a former USA Gymnastics doctor indicted this week on federal child-pornography charges.

He also has been charged by the Michigan Attorney General's office with sexually abusing a young girl in his Holt home, and there is an ongoing investigation into complaints by 50 or so other victims, according to MSU police.
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Lopez reported the treatment "to no less than three Michigan State University trainers as early as 2000," the press release says.

"The supervisor dismissed her complaint and indicated Dr. Nassar did this to many female athletes from a variety of sports and told Lopez she fortunate to receive the best medical care possible from a world-renowned doctor," the press release said.

Lopez also was told his "inter-vaginal adjustments" were legitimate medical treatments, according to the press release.

"Tiffany's complaint directly contradicts statements by Michigan State University that they fired Dr. Nassar in 2015 immediately upon hearing student concerns about his abusive and harassing conduct," Manly said in the press release.

"Her complaints were ignored, she was shamed and Dr. Nassar allegedly continued to molest girls and women for another 15 years at MSU and as a team doctor for USA Gymnastics," Manly said.
The situation with Nasser has been in the news for quite a while, but recently, something has also happened, the circumstances of which are still unclear (though suspected to be the cover up of a gang rape), with the MSU football team.

http://www.mlive.com/spartans/index....d_news_article

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Blackwell's suspension comes as a criminal investigation into three Michigan State football players is ongoing. Michigan State announced last week that a member of the football staff also had been suspended pending the completion of that investigation.
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  #64  
Old 02-16-2017, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
I do not care if the president, or any politician, cheats on their spouse. It is not my concern. It is not my business. So long as they are both consenting adults, it simply does not matter to me.
It's a national security risk, first off, since it's a potential object of blackmail.

Second, as I said, in some workplaces, consent isn't enough between a subordinate and a boss. There needs to be disclosure as well, or it is still considered harassment. Relationships between superiors and subordinates in the workplace are very fraught and consent in such a situation is a gray area for sure.

And if the President is conducting an illicit affair, it means he or she is lying to the American public, which is certainly a concern. I don't necessarily think a candidate's personal life is a great reason to vote for or against them, but with Clinton it seemed almost pathological, and moreover, once elected the conduct of the President reflects on the entire country. I think it's absolutely the concern of the public that the POTUS conducts himself or herself with dignity and honesty.

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It was their age. This wasn't about the Miss America pageant, it was the Miss Teen USA pageant.
Well there seems to be a bit of dispute about whether he actually walked in. And even if he did? Yeah, it's creepy and inappropriate, but he does own the pageant and I'm sure there are dozens of reasons he might want to be walking around backstage. I don't mean to defend a sexual predator, but this seems to me to be a very minor issue in the litany of complaints about President Trump, and it pales in comparison to the sex foibles of Mr. Clinton.

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I see these as two distinctly different types of situations. Is Bill sleazy? Yes. Is he brilliant? Yes. A gifted politician? Yes.
He's charismatic. I don't know that that means brilliant. Certainly I'd say Mr. Trump is brilliant. Moreso than Bill Clinton, for sure. And while it's been a god-awful month, the man has four years to prove himself in the political arena. He was elected despite having no support from the GOP, so you have to give him a fair bit of credit for that.

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If I could answer yes on those last two points with Trump, moreover, if I agreed with him on anything that he was doing in terms of policy, I likely would be far less bothered by him.
His policy positions have nothing to do with his abilities. He's a disgusting human being. He's also the most brilliant marketing and public relations genius of his era.

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Trump is sleazy. If he was only sleazy I'd be far less bothered by him being president.
So is Bill Clinton! Just because he was President in an era that didn't have the internet doesn't make him less sleazy. He also has crafted an image for himself which doesn't necessarily reflect reality, just like JFK and his New Frontiersmen did after he died.

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It's his incompetence and his awful policies that are the real problem. His personality certainly adds an extra layer of disgust, but he would still be a disaster as president even if he seemed moral. Take for example Pence. I'd be no more happy with him as president than with Trump.
That's fine, and I'm not defending Trump. I'm merely pointing out that we've had men of obvious moral failing in office before, in the recent past in fact, and people seem pretty eager to whitewash over it. One can make a strong argument that Bill Clinton used the power of his office to sleep with women, and when caught, lied about it under oath. That is worse than anything Donald Trump has done to date.
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  #65  
Old 02-16-2017, 03:30 PM
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He's charismatic. I don't know that that means brilliant. Certainly I'd say Mr. Trump is brilliant. Moreso than Bill Clinton, for sure.
You and I seem to have vastly different opinions on brilliance.
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  #66  
Old 02-16-2017, 04:11 PM
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You and I seem to have vastly different opinions on brilliance.
One was a Rhodes scholar at Oxford...the other barely got through Wharton with Daddy paying off his professors and the school to make it happen. Both are equal.

One worked his way up from nothing...the other had it handed to him on a golden platter and literally did nothing positive from a financial standpoint his entire life.

Both are equal.
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  #67  
Old 02-17-2017, 02:50 AM
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...the other had it handed to him on a golden platter and literally did nothing positive from a financial standpoint his entire life.
That's brilliant, innit? I wish I had had the foresight to be born from wealthy parents.
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  #68  
Old 02-17-2017, 08:22 AM
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That's brilliant, innit? I wish I had had the foresight to be born from wealthy parents.
Yup, he earned his money the old-fashioned way...by being born into it.

I wonder if his father's dementia is also something he'll inherit shortly...
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  #69  
Old 02-17-2017, 10:02 AM
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Yup, he earned his money the old-fashioned way...by being born into it.
He's also proven the adage that the best way to being worth a million dollars is to start with ten million.

How many times has he declared bankruptcy, anyway?
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  #70  
Old 02-17-2017, 01:31 PM
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How many times has he declared bankruptcy, anyway?
Not enough.
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Old 02-17-2017, 08:39 PM
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He's also proven the adage that the best way to being worth a million dollars is to start with ten million.

How many times has he declared bankruptcy, anyway?
3 or 4 times I believe...all corporate, never personal though. He's been "smart enough" to never risk his own personal money in any of his BS idiotic business ventures.

Those bankruptcies were the reason he stopped doing any major real estate deals and simply started licensing his name out as no reputable bankers would lend him money anymore. Its also why he started doing business in Russia and why he's so far in hock to Putin & Co.
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  #72  
Old 02-18-2017, 01:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
3 or 4 times I believe...all corporate, never personal though. He's been "smart enough" to never risk his own personal money in any of his BS idiotic business ventures.

Those bankruptcies were the reason he stopped doing any major real estate deals and simply started licensing his name out as no reputable bankers would lend him money anymore. Its also why he started doing business in Russia and why he's so far in hock to Putin & Co.
So (about half of ) the American voters thought it would be a good idea to give him control of the taxpayer's money? Makes sense to me.

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Old 02-18-2017, 03:32 AM
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If the USA declares bankruptcy, what happens next?
Addendum to that question: who precisely is entitled to file for bankruptcy on behalf of the USA?
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Old 02-18-2017, 04:54 AM
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If the USA declares bankruptcy, what happens next?
Addendum to that question: who precisely is entitled to file for bankruptcy on behalf of the USA?
Congress. They try every time they have to raise the debt limit.
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Old 02-18-2017, 08:46 PM
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Congress. They try every time they have to raise the debt limit.
Next time is April when we run out of money again...it should be interesting to see what happens then.

If we default...it could really screw up my vacation to the UK in May as it'd destroy the value of the dollar.

Good thing I prepaid for the rooms, train tickets and whatever else I could already I guess.


Oh, and it'd be really bad for the economy too or something.
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"We caught them in an alley on skid row in downtown Philly and brought them down with Uzi's and dogs. I beat the shit out of one of the guys for resisting arrest. After that, I went home, fried up some tofu with strawberry preserves and melon sticky rice, laid down on the couch with my snuggie and ate rose petals in sweet daisy wine sauce and watched Mamma Mia on DVD and then cried myself to sleep."

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Old 02-22-2017, 10:15 PM
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The Nasser/MSU case just continues to grow more horrifying.

http://deadspin.com/police-81-have-a...f-s-1792652315

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Today, the state of Michigan filed a slew of criminal charges spread across two counties against disgraced former gymnastics coach Larry Nassar, saying he sexually abused nine gymnasts when they came to him for treatment. In the affidavits for the charges, investigators outline how multiple gymnasts said Nassar would penetrate their vaginas with his fingers for extended periods of time under the guise of giving them medical treatment, like a massage. One victim told authorities the assaults started when she was 10 years old; another said she was assaulted by Nassar “more times than she could count,” according to one affidavit. A third victim said in a second affidavit that she believed that Nassar “twisted treatment into having parents watch their children get molested.”

Between the two affidavits released today, police and state prosecutors say they have heard from 81 people who say they were victims of Nassar. The charges filed today—including 22 counts of criminal sexual conduct in Ingham and Eaton counties—are based on what happened with nine victims. In the Ingham cases, the affidavit says that all the victims were sexually abused by Nassar “while he treated them at either the MSU Sports medicine clinic office or after-hours at his home in Holt, Michigan.” In the Eaton cases, the affidavit says the victims were abused by Nassar while they were gymnasts at Twistars Gymnastics Club in Dimondale, Mich. These are the first criminal charges directly related to Nassar’s role as a doctor, according to the Lansing State Journal.

The allegations, as described by law enforcement, are consistent: Nassar, the accusers say, did not ask for consent, did not tell the victims what he was about to do, and did not wear gloves. In some cases a parent was present, but according to the affidavits, Nassar would position them so the parents couldn’t see what was happening, or used a sheet to cover up that part of a gymnast’s body. One victim said that every time her mother stood up to see what Nassar was doing, he would stop.
The article is disturbingly graphic.

Quote:
Of the nine alleged victims, six were assaulted in Ingham County. The first victim, called Victim A, said Nassar began assaulting her when she was 10; Nassar was supposed to readjust her ribs when, while pressing on her back, he pulled up her leotard and touched her vagina, putting his bare hand and fingers “between the flaps” of her vagina, according to the affidavit. The victim told investigators she felt “grossed out.” He assaulted her again, at age 11, at Michigan State. While giving her a foot massage, he put his fingers in her vagina and “was touching really hard on her clitoris,” according to the affidavit. The victim said Nassar was “really sweaty and into it.” Beforehand, Nassar told the girl’s father that the massage would “take time” and asked a Michigan State student to leave the room.
The rest of the article goes through a similarly graphic litany of charges, all with girls of similar age, perhaps unsurprising considering the fact that these girls were gymnasts. How could any parent or MSU staff have ever have believed that this was legitimate therapy, let alone not have been extremely suspicious at the fact that he didn't have a nurse present for these therapy sessions?

He's probably lucky that Michigan doesn't have the death penalty.
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Old 03-02-2017, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
One was a Rhodes scholar at Oxford...the other barely got through Wharton with Daddy paying off his professors and the school to make it happen. Both are equal.

One worked his way up from nothing...the other had it handed to him on a golden platter and literally did nothing positive from a financial standpoint his entire life.
His wealth and his success aren't necessarily tied together. He's a failed real estate developer, more or less, and I'll argue that til I'm blue in the face. But a ton of his net worth is from The Apprentice, and that's all him.

There are thousands of insanely wealthy families in this country, and only a tiny fraction of them have scions who have parlayed that into fame and fortune the way Trump has. He sold a name and a lifestyle and, in a lot of ways, an entire era (not that 80s yuppie culture is a great model to follow, but he certainly managed to distill it to its core). Again, don't have to like it, but it's impressive nonetheless. And despite being a total failure in many of his major real estate deals, he still managed to sell the public on the idea that he was a huge success.

Whatever else you think of Trump, he's very good at what he does. Snake oil salesmen may be the lowest dregs of humanity, but it still takes skill and talent to be one.
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Old 03-02-2017, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
His wealth and his success aren't necessarily tied together. He's a failed real estate developer, more or less, and I'll argue that til I'm blue in the face. But a ton of his net worth is from The Apprentice, and that's all him.

There are thousands of insanely wealthy families in this country, and only a tiny fraction of them have scions who have parlayed that into fame and fortune the way Trump has. He sold a name and a lifestyle and, in a lot of ways, an entire era (not that 80s yuppie culture is a great model to follow, but he certainly managed to distill it to its core). Again, don't have to like it, but it's impressive nonetheless. And despite being a total failure in many of his major real estate deals, he still managed to sell the public on the idea that he was a huge success.

Whatever else you think of Trump, he's very good at what he does. Snake oil salesmen may be the lowest dregs of humanity, but it still takes skill and talent to be one.
He'd make one hell of a used car salesman...up there with Bill Paxton's (RIP) character in True Lies.

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