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  #121  
Old 03-25-2017, 06:23 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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Originally Posted by Daekyras View Post
Back on page three of this thread there was an interesrlting conversation about whether a forced bond(like alanna) was at the level of an actual physical rape. (I still dont thibk it is)
Actually, it may be worse. A rape is very bad, but, apart from the memory*, once its done it is over. A forced bonding goes on and on and on.
With a rape, there is at least a possibility of killing the rapist and thereby getting out of it. With a forced bonding, killing the perpetrator is suicide.
With a rape, the official view is that the rapist was wrong and the rapee a victim. With a forced bonding, the authorities (the WT at least) is on the side of perp and against the victim.

* And possible physical side effects, which, for the sake of simplicity, I'll assume to be zero here.
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  #122  
Old 03-25-2017, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Actually, it may be worse. A rape is very bad, but, apart from the memory*, once its done it is over. A forced bonding goes on and on and on.
With a rape, there is at least a possibility of killing the rapist and thereby getting out of it. With a forced bonding, killing the perpetrator is suicide.
With a rape, the official view is that the rapist was wrong and the rapee a victim. With a forced bonding, the authorities (the WT at least) is on the side of perp and against the victim.

* And possible physical side effects, which, for the sake of simplicity, I'll assume to be zero here.

That assumes you see killing the rapist is revenge. A lot of people would condider that damages the person doing the killing even more.

And the WT might not be on the aide of the perp. We havent seen anyone go and complain...
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  #123  
Old 03-25-2017, 09:09 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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Killing the rapist during the rape will at the very least stop it. Or prevent a second rape. Or help someone else from falling victim to the same.

We have seen a whole bunch of AS who knew about it, and not a single one of them said that it was against Tower law. Not one of them seemed to think that what Alanna had done was a crime. Many thought it was against custom, but that's not enough for the WT to publicly support a man against an AS, is it?
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  #124  
Old 03-25-2017, 09:23 AM
fionwe1987 fionwe1987 is offline
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Killing the rapist during the rape will at the very least stop it. Or prevent a second rape. Or help someone else from falling victim to the same.
For sure, but if there's PTSD associated with the rape (as it often is), confronting and killing the rapist isn't particularly likely to help that.

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We have seen a whole bunch of AS who knew about it, and not a single one of them said that it was against Tower law. Not one of them seemed to think that what Alanna had done was a crime. Many thought it was against custom, but that's not enough for the WT to publicly support a man against an AS, is it?
True, but on the other hand, when Siuan and Egwene were blackmailing Myrelle, they seemed pretty certain the Hall would punish them severely. Not as much as a rapist truly deserves, but neither was there any implication that the Tower would be "on their side".
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  #125  
Old 03-25-2017, 11:13 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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True, but on the other hand, when Siuan and Egwene were blackmailing Myrelle, they seemed pretty certain the Hall would punish them severely. Not as much as a rapist truly deserves, but neither was there any implication that the Tower would be "on their side".
Was there any implication that Lan would be released from his Warder bond?
I don't think so. Which means that the rape victim does stay property of the rapist. For a historical example, see Deuteronomy|22:28-29.
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  #126  
Old 03-25-2017, 11:20 AM
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This is somewhat topical, albeit real world, and with the victim a woman, but these circumstances aren't all that dissimilar to Mat's:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39392147

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The alleged victim, who worked in hospitals in Turin, said the defendant had forced her into sexual acts and threatened to stop providing her with work if she did not comply, the Corriere della Sera newspaper reported (in Italian).
Asked why she had not reacted to the alleged assault more strongly, she told the court: "Sometimes saying no is enough but maybe I did not use the force and violence that in reality I should have used, but that is because with people who are too strong, I just freeze."
Apparently like Elayne, the judge wasn't particularly sympathetic.

Quote:
The court in Turin ruled last month that the woman saying "enough" to her colleague who allegedly attacked her was not a strong enough reaction to prove she had been sexually assaulted.
The alleged victim is now facing charges for slander, reports said.
The reaction from courts isn't usually so egregiously unjust as that of this one in Turin, but this is illustrative of why so few rapes are reported.
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  #127  
Old 03-25-2017, 11:31 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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To be fair to the Turin court: courts in Italy seem to be very prone to victim blaming. A couple of years ago, a judge decided that another case couldn't have been rape, because it would have been impossible to get the woman's skinny jeans down her legs if she hadn't voluntarily cooperated. And of course, it's not only rape cases where Italian courts are nuts. You may remember that infamous earthquake prediction trial of a decade or so ago too.
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  #128  
Old 03-25-2017, 12:44 PM
fionwe1987 fionwe1987 is offline
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Was there any implication that Lan would be released from his Warder bond?
I don't think so. Which means that the rape victim does stay property of the rapist. For a historical example, see Deuteronomy|22:28-29.
Quote:
“Mother .*.*.” That was almost a gasp. “.*.*. I was explaining possible penalties.” She drew a long breath, and went on more definitely. “The Hall will have to invent them as they go, of course, but I think they might well start with making these two pass their Warders to others, since they seem so fond of it.”

Excerpt From: Robert Jordan. “Wheel of Time [07]: A Crown of Swords.” iBooks.
Quote:
“It is very simple,” she said in a firm voice. “Without my protection, you will very likely lose your Warders, and almost certainly wish you’d been skinned alive by the time the Hall finishes with you. Your own Ajahs may have a few choice words for you, as well. It may be years before you can hold your heads up again, years before you don’t have sisters looking over your shoulder every minute.”
Now, Siuan said they'd have to pass their bonds, which seems entirely to miss the point. Egwene merely said they'd lose their Warders, which seems more sensible and to the point. I took it to mean Myrelle would lose Lan as well, not just her other Warders.

That said, given that Lan would almost certainly want to kill himself minus the bond, I have no idea how the Hall would have dealt with him. Asked Nynaeve to bond him if he was willing, but what if he said no to that?
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  #129  
Old 03-28-2017, 08:21 AM
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Anaiya Sedai Anaiya Sedai is offline
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I'm assuming that Egwene would have taken into consideration the fact that Lan was passed over to keep him alive, and Nynaeve's feelings for him.
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  #130  
Old 03-28-2017, 10:45 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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Oh yes, assuming that an AS is being reasonable and considerate is indeed always a very interesting bet.
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  #131  
Old 03-28-2017, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Anaiya Sedai View Post
I'm assuming that Egwene would have taken into consideration the fact that Lan was passed over to keep him alive, and Nynaeve's feelings for him.
Well, the Amyrlin might have considered that but I'm not sure Egwene would have.
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  #132  
Old 03-28-2017, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
Well, the Amyrlin might have considered that but I'm not sure Egwene would have.
Don't you mean the reverse? Egwene's thoughts during the scene reveal she did take those factors into consideration. But completely powerless as she was, she couldn't have done anything to gainsay the Hall.
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  #133  
Old 05-03-2017, 09:08 AM
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From Terez's notes thread:

Quote:
Myrelle took Lan to her bed; this was to last until she had begun making him think of life again, to however small a degree, it being her belief that fucking makes you center on life rather than death. She had to use the bond to compel him, sometimes, which she found both odd and somewhat insulting.
Guess that settles that...Myrelle did compel him to bed her...and it insulted her that she had to.
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  #134  
Old 05-03-2017, 11:02 AM
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cool motive, still rape

that whole story line always made me uncomfortable
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  #135  
Old 05-03-2017, 02:57 PM
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cool motive, still rape

that whole story line always made me uncomfortable
Definitely rape. As someone pointed out, aCoS seems to be filled with rapes, the threats of rape, and the consequences (or complete lack thereof) of rape.
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  #136  
Old 05-04-2017, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by connabard View Post
cool motive, still rape

that whole story line always made me uncomfortable
Oh, its definitely rape...there was just some debate previously as to whether or not she compelled him with some of us saying she did and others saying that she did not. Its nice to have confirmation that it was indeed compulsion at work.
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