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  #41  
Old 03-08-2017, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
Exactly, clearly it has more to do with how the bond is broken, not the actual event.
So I'll ask again. How is this in conflict with my analysis?
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Old 03-08-2017, 01:35 PM
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So I'll ask again. How is this in conflict with my analysis?
You calling it pseudo or just mimicking...that implies that Lan is only feeling it because he thinks he should, not because of a legitimate reaction.
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  #43  
Old 03-08-2017, 01:48 PM
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You calling it pseudo or just mimicking...that implies that Lan is only feeling it because he thinks he should, not because of a legitimate reaction.
No it doesn't. It simply means that the state of mind is achieved without the normal cause.

But you still keep dodging the question. How does it affect the analysis which you objected to before the use of those terms? Stop lazying around and clearly state your points in detail.

Honestly if you keep going like this, you seriously have no business to complain about southpaw.
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  #44  
Old 03-08-2017, 03:23 PM
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But it is the normal cause...the snapping of the bond. The mechanism of that snapping is simply a little different is all.
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  #45  
Old 03-08-2017, 04:23 PM
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But it is the normal cause...the snapping of the bond. The mechanism of that snapping is simply a little different is all.
And that is not the point. Either way you fail to demonstrate how this is in conflict with the analysis. Walk us through how this would prove the analysis wrong or be forever know as "southpaw II"
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  #46  
Old 03-09-2017, 07:32 AM
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The reason I think of this as different is because Lan does not immediately fly into anything.

He is very calm afterwards.

Myrelle can feel all of the anger that is in Lan. But she doesn't know where its from. And its normal for her to assume its something she has come across before.

but...meh. I dont think Lan is faking or mimmicking it. I think he is incredibly angry about what has been done to him without his permission. And of his own behaviour in trying to suppress his feelings for nynaeve.

It makes way more sense to me that way than for it to be some delayed death rage that he somehow kept in tact and avoided succumbing to despite moving through battles on his way to salidar.
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  #47  
Old 03-09-2017, 01:36 PM
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The reason I think of this as different is because Lan does not immediately fly into anything.

He is very calm afterwards.

Myrelle can feel all of the anger that is in Lan. But she doesn't know where its from. And its normal for her to assume its something she has come across before.

but...meh. I dont think Lan is faking or mimmicking it. I think he is incredibly angry about what has been done to him without his permission. And of his own behaviour in trying to suppress his feelings for nynaeve.

It makes way more sense to me that way than for it to be some delayed death rage that he somehow kept in tact and avoided succumbing to despite moving through battles on his way to salidar.
Lan has been shown to have a great deal of emotion. He is simply very accomplished in controlling himself. It might be this ability in general that makes the difference between him and other Warders or it might be that dealing with these particular emotions isn't new for him. A Warder's life is hard, but they manage it by making that one duty the center point of their life. Whatever they had to endure was bearable so long as they managed to keep their Aes Sedai safe. So when that one supporting pillar is removed the despair is unbearable. Lan however is a king whose land has fallen to the Shadow. He has been dealing with that his entire life. Despair is not a new emotion for him. He feels it likely as much as any other Warder would, but he has experience most of them do not.
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  #48  
Old 03-09-2017, 03:06 PM
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Lan has been shown to have a great deal of emotion. He is simply very accomplished in controlling himself. It might be this ability in general that makes the difference between him and other Warders or it might be that dealing with these particular emotions isn't new for him. A Warder's life is hard, but they manage it by making that one duty the center point of their life. Whatever they had to endure was bearable so long as they managed to keep their Aes Sedai safe. So when that one supporting pillar is removed the despair is unbearable. Lan however is a king whose land has fallen to the Shadow. He has been dealing with that his entire life. Despair is not a new emotion for him. He feels it likely as much as any other Warder would, but he has experience most of them do not.
Naz- im confused. Your other points seem to imply Lan is faking his death rage.

But your response to me seems to be saying hes just handling it well?
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  #49  
Old 03-09-2017, 06:37 PM
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Naz- im confused. Your other points seem to imply Lan is faking his death rage.

But your response to me seems to be saying hes just handling it well?
Not at all. He isn't faking anything of course he isn't, but he remains in control.

Is it really that hard to believe that someone is able to stay in control of themselves in spite of massive emotion?
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  #50  
Old 03-10-2017, 01:16 AM
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I don't think RJ intended it to be read as rape.
That is the action of a villain. She is not written as a villain.
Neither is Alanna, yet RJ has multiple characters state quite clearly that they view a forced bond as rape.

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The only other example of non - evil character raping someone is tylin forcing Mat at knife point. And even then it is played for "laughs".
Alanna as well, and it isn't shown to be funny at all.

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But compulsion is a magnitude of evil beyond that.
And yet one he clearly has Myrelle commit, has Alanna try on Rand, Logain use regularly... I don't think any of this is proof, really.

I'm inclined to believe Myrelle did use Compulsion. Even if not to directly force Lan, to make him generally cooperative enough. When Egwene first sees them, Myrelle touches Lan and he flinches. I always read that as a sign of Lan not wanting to be touched by her, and having endured it anyway.

As for the bond not really breaking... Nynaeve very clearly feels that when she delves him. And Myrelle is the foremost expert on Warders with broken bonds. She may be all sorts of things, but a complete idiot she is not. Given she could feel everything he could feel, it beggars belief that she would be hoodwinked into thinking Lan's bond was broken if it wasn't. Not to mention that it wouldn't have passed to her if it hadn't...
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  #51  
Old 03-10-2017, 04:39 AM
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Neither is Alanna, yet RJ has multiple characters state quite clearly that they view a forced bond as rape.


Alanna as well, and it isn't shown to be funny at all.


And yet one he clearly has Myrelle commit, has Alanna try on Rand, Logain use regularly... I don't think any of this is proof, really.
Alanna bonds without permission and dries to compel Rand with the bond(something Lan and Moiraine discuss in book 4 and he says she had never done to him). And the bonding condemned by many people and seen as akin to rape. No-one has argued against that. but does anyone condemn her using the bond to compel? or any of the other warders who were compelled by the bond? It seems accepted to me.

But that is not the rape we are discussing.

Did Myrelle commit Sexual rape of Lan? I don't think there is evidence to say she does. You think there is. the flinch just read to me as him being on a hair trigger and he would have flinched at any touch- like a wild horse- at that point.

Having different opinions on the same piece of writing is perfectly fine.

But she is not condemned or is it remarked on in the way Alanna is.

So are we to assume that Alannas is a worse crime? since it results in comment but myrelle does not?

Unless Im forgetting something and Alanna Physically rapes someone in the series similar to Tylin but I missed it? (note- that might have happened in the blank spot of book 8 that I just can never remember)
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  #52  
Old 03-10-2017, 12:14 PM
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Well, with Alanna there is the whole "now if someone kills her that will totally screw up the DR" thing. Which I'd mentioned as a risk she (and all other AS) seemed to totally ignore for some reason, even though what she did could be counted as treason against the Light.

But if one assumes that she just bonded "a man", then it is no bigger deal than a sul'dam slapping a collar around an AS. Is the latter as bad as rape?
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Old 03-10-2017, 04:17 PM
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The bond changes the physiology of the warder. He isn't like other men and he isn't exactly AS. So when an AS dies, why does it trigger a "death rage/wish" in the warder and not in AS when their warders die?
Initially I thought it might be a result of the warder actually experiencing the psychological trauma of death. But if that were the case, then AS too would experience it and would know exactly what the warder was going through.
Since they don't, I have to conclude that the snapping of the bond causes psychological change or trauma or both. So if Lan isn't in his right mind, would it be considered criminal to administer a little therapeutic rebalancing by tweaking the bond?
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Old 03-10-2017, 04:21 PM
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But if one assumes that she just bonded "a man", then it is no bigger deal than a sul'dam slapping a collar around an AS. Is the latter as bad as rape?
Of course. Slaves are regularly raped. And making a " noble" a slave and subjecting them to that kind of cruelty...
Am surprised you even ask.
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Old 03-13-2017, 05:36 AM
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The question isnt really about "is it as bad as rape" and more along the lines of "is it the same as rape".

I think it is not. Its a different crime.

I also dont think Myrelle rapes Lan.

@Greatwolf- That's not what Gonzo asked...
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Old 03-18-2017, 01:06 AM
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Old 03-19-2017, 01:06 PM
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The question isnt really about "is it as bad as rape" and more along the lines of "is it the same as rape".
No, no it isn't. I brought this up because you made the argument that RJ wouldn't have a "good" character like Myrelle do something as villainous as rape.

In world, forced warder bonds are considered as bad as rape, yet a character who more or less falls on the same "good" zone as Myrelle, Alanna, does force a warder bond. Heck, by forcefully transferring Lan's bond, Moiraine did pretty much the same thing too.

Thus, the idea that someone like Myrelle wouldn't be shown doing something like rape is shown to be false. A forced warder bond doesn't have to be the "same" as rape for this to be true.
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Old 03-20-2017, 01:30 PM
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No, no it isn't. I brought this up because you made the argument that RJ wouldn't have a "good" character like Myrelle do something as villainous as rape.

In world, forced warder bonds are considered as bad as rape, yet a character who more or less falls on the same "good" zone as Myrelle, Alanna, does force a warder bond. Heck, by forcefully transferring Lan's bond, Moiraine did pretty much the same thing too.

Thus, the idea that someone like Myrelle wouldn't be shown doing something like rape is shown to be false. A forced warder bond doesn't have to be the "same" as rape for this to be true.
What matters here is the individual's view on morality, not the world's and I rather think both Alanna and Myrelle disagree with that view.

Would the rest of the world still judge them to be as bad? Yes, but that is not the point. You say that if they would do this then surely they wouldn't refrain from that, but if in their opinion the latter is a much more immoral thing to do, then you might very well be wrong.
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Old 03-20-2017, 08:48 PM
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What matters here is the individual's view on morality, not the world's and I rather think both Alanna and Myrelle disagree with that view.

Would the rest of the world still judge them to be as bad? Yes, but that is not the point. You say that if they would do this then surely they wouldn't refrain from that, but if in their opinion the latter is a much more immoral thing to do, then you might very well be wrong.
No, the world's view matters, since that is what RJ is intending to be the moral weight we assign to entirely unreal things like Warder Bonds. The question at issue is if RJ would have a "good" character do something as villainous as rape. It seems pretty clear he would.
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:16 AM
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No, the world's view matters, since that is what RJ is intending to be the moral weight we assign to entirely unreal things like Warder Bonds. The question at issue is if RJ would have a "good" character do something as villainous as rape. It seems pretty clear he would.
But it doesn't prove that a specific character would do something much less that they actually did do it. All you are proving is that WoT isn't perfectly divided into Heroes and Villains. It's one of the series' strengths that you can't quickly deside what the characters would do based on which side they are on.
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