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  #541  
Old Yesterday, 12:02 PM
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ShadowbaneX ShadowbaneX is offline
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Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
This ACA fight just won't go away...

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/19/o...pgtype=article

Considering that the governor of Arizona endorsed this recent plan, not to mention the added fact that this plan is Lindsey Graham's, it is much harder to hope for McCain to continue to do the right thing.

On the other hand, if this does actually happen, this may help the dems retake both the House (something which would otherwise have been impossible) and the Senate, not to mention all but ensure that they reclaim the WH in '20.
That's something, but read this. That's...I don't know how much of these predictions will come to pass, but if they do...Wow.
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  #542  
Old Yesterday, 04:49 PM
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That's something, but read this. That's...I don't know how much of these predictions will come to pass, but if they do...Wow.
Whoever wrote/assembled that dailykos article needs to work on the concept of abridgment.

In other batshit crazy news...

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41324970

Quote:
"Frankly, that deal is an embarrassment to the United States, and I don't think you've heard the last of it," Mr Trump told the General Assembly on Tuesday.
Iran's government, he said, was bent on "death and destruction", while its people wanted change.
Iranian Foreign Minister Javad Zarif commented on Twitter that "Trump's ignorant hate speech" belonged "in medieval times - not the 21st Century UN".

Using almost biblical language, the American leader portrayed the world in terms of "decent nations" confronted with "rogue regimes".
"If the righteous many do not confront the wicked few then evil will triumph," he said in the speech.
"When decent people and nations become bystanders to history the forces of destruction only gather power and strength."
Just how many fights are we intending to simultaneously undertake?

Quote:
According to Reuters news agency, when Mr Trump made his remarks about destroying North Korea, one man in the audience covered his face with his hands, while Swedish Foreign Minister Margot Wallstrom crossed her arms.
Loud, startled murmurs filled the hall, according to the agency.
And, of course, the only country (well, and maybe Russia and China, but with them only likely laughing at how thoroughly Trump has undermined American influence and prestige around the world) that supported his rambling diatribe was an evil apartheid state.

Quote:
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu sided with Mr Trump in his speech, saying the deal with Iran should be amended or scrapped altogether, and warned against the spread of Iranian influence in the Middle East.
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  #543  
Old Yesterday, 06:55 PM
Southpaw2012 Southpaw2012 is offline
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http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/18/politi...ans/index.html


Wait a second.... Wasn't everyone up in arms about Trump accusing the government of wiretapping his campaign?

I love when crazy liberals go after Trump and he ends up being right. I think Trump's a clown and a disgraceful president, but with the rise of terrorist group Antifa and the anti-free speech freaks on college campuses, this stuff makes me smile.
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  #544  
Old Yesterday, 07:36 PM
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Weird Harold Weird Harold is offline
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Originally Posted by Southpaw2012 View Post
http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/18/politi...ans/index.html


Wait a second.... Wasn't everyone up in arms about Trump accusing the government of wiretapping his campaign?

I love when crazy liberals go after Trump and he ends up being right. I think Trump's a clown and a disgraceful president, but with the rise of terrorist group Antifa and the anti-free speech freaks on college campuses, this stuff makes me smile.
That article sounds to me like the Trump campaign blundered into an ongoing investigation and any "wiretapping" was aimed at the original target, not Trump or his campaign -- other than where the campaign and prior investigation into Russian spying intersected.
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  #545  
Old Yesterday, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Southpaw2012 View Post
http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/18/politi...ans/index.html


Wait a second.... Wasn't everyone up in arms about Trump accusing the government of wiretapping his campaign?

I love when crazy liberals go after Trump and he ends up being right. I think Trump's a clown and a disgraceful president, but with the rise of terrorist group Antifa and the anti-free speech freaks on college campuses, this stuff makes me smile.
There is an important semantic distinction that needs to be noted here, Southpaw. Trump asserted that he personally had been wiretapped, and personally upon the orders of Obama. None of us were particularly surprised that some of Trump's associates, especially Manafort (due to his prior associations with the Kremlin, and with the Kremlin puppet govt in Kiev that had been toppled) were the subject of FBI investigation and observation. That wasn't the issue. It was his assertion that he had personally been illegally investigated upon Obama's orders. That a FISA warrant tracking either Manafort or sketchy Russian businessmen and diplomats suspected of being spies trying to groom and coopt corrupt Americans to further Russian interests in America could have picked up intel en passant on Trump surprised none of us.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.c1527e0a60c8

Quote:
CNN reported Monday night that the government wiretapped Trump's former campaign chairman, Paul Manafort, both before and after the 2016 campaign using FISA (or Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act) warrants. It is not known whether Trump himself was wrapped up in those wiretaps, CNN reports. The Washington Post has not confirmed the warrants. Only CBS News has been able to substantiate parts of the report, citing one anonymous source.

But would that be a valid claim for the White House to make?

Let's start with the wording of the claim, and take it piece by piece. Here's what Trump tweeted:

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Donald J. Trump ✔ @realDonaldTrump
Terrible! Just found out that Obama had my "wires tapped" in Trump Tower just before the victory. Nothing found. This is McCarthyism!
6:35 AM - Mar 4, 2017
48,745 48,745 Replies 53,232 53,232 Retweets 145,066 145,066 likes
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Donald J. Trump ✔ @realDonaldTrump
How low has President Obama gone to tapp my phones during the very sacred election process. This is Nixon/Watergate. Bad (or sick) guy!
7:02 AM - Mar 4, 2017
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There are three elements here: 1) Trump's “wires” were “tapped”, 2) It happened at Trump Tower, and 3) Obama did it.

The first part is still unproven. If the CNN report is correct, there is still no indication that Trump himself was targeted by wiretapping; the report leaves open the possibility that a conversation with Trump may have been swept up in the Manafort tap, but we have no indication that it was.

Even if it was, Trump wasn't the named target of the wiretap. This would be what's known as “incidental collection.” You may recall that phrase from the last time the White House claimed some measure of vindication for Trump's wiretapping claim, when House Intelligence Committee Chairman Devin Nunes (R-Calif.) disclosed that members of Trump's transition team were wrapped up in other legal surveillance that wasn't targeted at them.

The second part — the Trump Tower part — is also possibly true based on what CNN reported, though again we just don't know for sure. While Trump himself wasn't the reported target of the wiretap, Manafort did have an apartment at Trump Tower, so it's possible that location was, in fact, wiretapped.

As for the third part, on Obama, Trump's tweet again seems to claim more than CNN is reporting. FISA warrants require sign-off from top Justice Department and FBI officials, but Trump was suggesting that Obama was personally involved.

It's worth noting in all of this that Trump's own Justice Department has cast doubt on his claim. In a court filing earlier this month, it said flatly that, “Both FBI and [its national security division] confirm that they have no records related to wiretaps as described by the March 4, 2017 tweets.” Then-FBI Director James B. Comey also said back in March that there was no evidence to support the claims.

The last element of this that should raise some eyebrows is this:

The conversations between Manafort and Trump continued after the President took office, long after the FBI investigation into Manafort was publicly known, the sources told CNN. They went on until lawyers for the President and Manafort insisted that they stop, according to the sources.
Trump opened himself up to all this scrutiny by bringing sketchy Russian proxenoi into his campaign, by refusing to admit to the blatantly obvious Russian interference in the election, by siding with the Russians to the detriment of American and NATO interests, by firing the man (Comey) conducting the investigation into the Russian interference in the election, and by refusing to reveal his tax returns, all leaving the reasonable presumption of his own guilt.

Last edited by Kimon; Yesterday at 08:19 PM.
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  #546  
Old Yesterday, 10:46 PM
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ShadowbaneX ShadowbaneX is offline
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That article sounds to me like the Trump campaign blundered into an ongoing investigation and any "wiretapping" was aimed at the original target, not Trump or his campaign -- other than where the campaign and prior investigation into Russian spying intersected.
what if...what if that's what starting this whole stupid thing? Someone sat Trump down and said "look. Manafort's dirty. We've been watching him for a while, back into the last administrator. We tapped him and he's in bed with the Russians."

and all Trump hears from this is "Obama tapped my phones!"
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  #547  
Old Today, 08:52 PM
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StrangePackage StrangePackage is offline
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Originally Posted by ShadowbaneX View Post
what if...what if that's what starting this whole stupid thing? Someone sat Trump down and said "look. Manafort's dirty. We've been watching him for a while, back into the last administrator. We tapped him and he's in bed with the Russians."

and all Trump hears from this is "Obama tapped my phones!"
No, Trump got this from Nunes.

The NSA has a recording of Don Jr and Manafort talking to Emin Agalarov on the phone about the Hillary dirt. (In the emails he released on Monday, he's clearly setting up a phone call with Agalarov.)

Remember a few months ago, when Congressman Nunes did that bizarre stunt where he saw some intel, then rushed to the White House to brief the President? I think he saw Don Jr's name and freaked out. Don Jr. was swept up in the same stuff with Manafort, because they were both talking to the same dirty Russian oligarchs.

This dovetails nicely with Trump's insistence immediately thereafter that Obama had wiretapped his home. It also matches up with reports from the FBI and NSA that the FISA warrant wasn't directed at Trump himself, but that the Americans on the call were monitored "incidentally" (meaning: the NSA was listening in on the Russians, and an American unexpectedly joined the call).
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