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  #401  
Old 08-11-2017, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by irerancincpkc View Post
I have been all for Mueller taking his time and making sure he covers everything in his investigation but the idea of Trump using nukes is such a real danger to so many innocent people I hope Mueller speeds it up a bit. I am not sure how long we have before Trump does something we cannot fix later.
I would hope (likely overestimating them here) that Mattis or Kelly would essentially veto such an order...I doubt it but I'd almost be okay with them ignoring him and then locking him in a closet until he could be detained for his idiocy.

With a preemptive attack order with nukes that is. And yes, that would basically be a military coup.
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  #402  
Old 08-11-2017, 08:47 AM
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Risking hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties in South Korea (due to the proximity and vulnerability of Seoul to conventional weapons) is why any such conflict is unacceptable. Such a realistic risk far outweighs any benefit of removing Kim Jong-un, or in stopping him from joining the community of nuclear powers.
Try millions of civilian casualties...literally tens of millions potentially. I used to do support/wargaming for that particular OPLAN including annual joint exercises with the ROK military. Best case scenario even for a conventional conflict was millions of Koreans dead on both sides of the border. The initial strike would devastate Seoul. Literally half of ROK's population lives in the metro area and they're all within range of a huge number of NK artillery pieces. It would be a tragedy of biblical proportions if there is ever another full out shooting war there.
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  #403  
Old 08-11-2017, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
Try millions of civilian casualties...literally tens of millions potentially. I used to do support/wargaming for that particular OPLAN including annual joint exercises with the ROK military. Best case scenario even for a conventional conflict was millions of Koreans dead on both sides of the border. The initial strike would devastate Seoul. Literally half of ROK's population lives in the metro area and they're all within range of a huge number of NK artillery pieces. It would be a tragedy of biblical proportions if there is ever another full out shooting war there.
Which is why the strategy under Clinton, Bush, and Obama was essentially just delaying tactics - essentially a recognition that the price of keeping the North Koreans from becoming a nuclear power was too high, and just hoping to at least push it off to the future, so that the next president would be the one blamed rather than themselves. Because it was always recognized that sanctions was not going to be enough, especially since only sanctions from China would carry any meaning, and the Chinese clearly do not care if North Korea achieves their nuclear ambitions.

If this was a dem presidency, or even a Bush or Kasich (i.e. a traditional republican) one, we would probably see more traditional tripartite (us, the North Koreans, and China - maybe the South Koreans and Japan as well) diplomacy, with the end aim of recognizing them as a nuclear power in exchange for them agreeing to accepting permanent inspectors (us and the Chinese preferably, if not, UN) so that we could at least maintain relative assurance that they were not passing nuclear material/technology on to ISIS and other Muslim non-state actors.

Perhaps this really is just the madman gambit, and Mattis and Kelly think that they can use the whole world's anxiety about Trump's judgment to scare the fu*k out of the Chinese to an extent that China decides that if they don't intervene that they might see a nuclear war right next door.

But that would still seem to require an assumption that the Chinese could convince the North Koreans to disarm. Well, that and it requires that one trusts that this dangerous game has been planned by Mattis, McMaster, and Kelly, rather than that this is but foolishly meandering improvisation by Trump all in an effort to divert public attention at home from the fact that Manafort quite clearly is going to go down for tax evasion and money laundering and that he may well soon be turned by Mueller and become the prime witness that helps bring those same charges (along with collusion and treason) against Trump.
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  #404  
Old 08-11-2017, 10:45 AM
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The standard before Trump was Six Party Talks...which worked for decades:

South Korea
North Korea
United States
China
Japan
Russia

Trump turned over the money changing table for zero reason and based on nothing.

Also, we never dealt one one one with any of the Kims for one simple reason: It would legitimize them and we didn't want to do that as it lowers us and raises them up. Dealing with envoys through ROK, Russia and China instead of directly made it easier. It was akin to writing a number down on a piece of paper to give to the car salesman rather than verbally negotiating.

It worked. It worked for decades. Every single time Trump engages Kim directly, it just emboldens them further. Every threat, every tweet, every off-hand comment just plays right into their hands. You don't jump into the mud with the pigs, you stay clean out of the wallow. Trump is a pig though so he wants to hang with his fellow pigs since he doesn't know any better.

Its better to be the farmer than the pig.

On another note, I don't think Mattis and/or Kelly are 100% on board with this idiocy. They are very likely intimately familiar with the various scenarios of a potential war on the Korean Peninsula and its not something any sane general would want to deal with.
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  #405  
Old 08-11-2017, 02:27 PM
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So, it took Trump a few days to not just undercut Nikki Haley, but to take her diplomatic victory with the Chinese, and turn it into this...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.1e66c9458cb9

Quote:
BEIJING — China won’t come to North Korea’s help if it launches missiles threatening U.S. soil and there is retaliation, a state-owned newspaper warned Friday, but it would intervene if Washington strikes first.

The Global Times newspaper is not an official mouthpiece of the Communist Party, but in this case its editorial probably does reflect government policy, experts said.

China has repeatedly warned both Washington and Pyongyang not to do anything that raises tensions or causes instability on the Korean Peninsula, and strongly reiterated that idea Friday.
I suppose this covers China either way - if North Korea volleys a few missiles harmlessly into the waters near Guam and we go nuts, China seemingly will stand aside. If we however launch a preemptive strike (which seemed unlikely anyway), we will face a repeat of the Korean War (i.e. we will be fighting China).

We Americans tend to overestimate the invincibility of our armed forces considering that since WWII:

Korea (stalemate)
Bay of Pigs (disastrous debacle)
Vietnam (humiliating defeat)
Lebanon (defeated again)
Grenada (victory - over a tiny island)
Gulf War I (finally a real victory)
Somalia (defeated again)
Bosnia & Kosovo (victory)
Afghanistan (essentially defeated again)
Iraq War II (complete disaster)
Libya (also a complete disaster)

So, since WWII our army is basically 3-7-1, and one of those victories requires counting Grenada. Our army is basically a sh*tty football team. China seemingly is saying that our army is about as imposing as Notre Dame or Michigan State, and saying that this time they don't think that they'll have to settle for a tie.

Trump supporters and I obviously always had different ideas of what making America great again involved, but difficult to see how anyone could view making America into Russia and China's bitch somehow was one criterion.
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  #406  
Old 08-11-2017, 06:21 PM
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Perhaps now that the Chinese have essentially told him to knock it off, Trump is seemingly looking for a softer target to use as a distraction from his domestic troubles, or from his blundering with North Korea...

http://thehill.com/homenews/administ...n-in-venezuela

Quote:
President Trump on Friday refused to rule out a U.S. military intervention in Venezuela, where civil strife has turned violent.

"I'm not going to rule out a military option," he told reporters at his New Jersey golf club.

“Venezuela is not very far away, and the people are suffering and they’re dying,” he added. “We have many options for Venezuela, including a possibility military option if necessary.”

Trump declined to say whether American troops would lead a possible military effort in Venezuela, saying: “We don’t talk about it.”

“But a military operation, a military option is certainly something that we could pursue,” he said.
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  #407  
Old 08-12-2017, 03:17 AM
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Which, of course, is entirely in line with yet another great American victory that you left out of your list: the conquest of Panama.
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  #408  
Old 08-12-2017, 09:28 AM
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Which, of course, is entirely in line with yet another great American victory that you left out of your list: the conquest of Panama.
In our defense, much like Notre Dame, we did have a far more impressive record up through WWII.

1-0-1 vs Britain (the win largely due to France)
2-0 vs the Barbary Pirates
2-0 vs China (group efforts)
1-0 vs Spain
2-0 vs Mexico
2-0 vs Cuba
1-0 vs Nicaragua
1-0 vs Dominican Republic
2-0 vs Germany (group efforts)
2-0 vs Japan

Add to that myriad victories over the indigenous peoples, whom we have largely hunted to extinction. Yet in this era of American hegemony, our martial record hasn't been so impressive, except in that we managed to defeat the Soviets w/o fighting a war, a lesson that I wish more Americans would bother to contemplate.
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  #409  
Old 08-12-2017, 10:06 AM
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Well, there is also the War on Drugs. War was officially declared in 1920 (albeit only on alcohol at the time), and Trump has announced that there's going to be a really impressive final victory, real soon now. Should that count as a war before or after WWII?
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  #410  
Old 08-12-2017, 10:10 AM
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Well, there is also the War on Drugs. War was officially declared in 1920 (albeit only on alcohol at the time), and Trump has announced that there's going to be a really impressive final victory, real soon now. Should that count as a war before or after WWII?
Looks like Trump and his AltRight Nazis are more intent at present on declaring war on the University of Virginia.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...tue/561833001/
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  #411  
Old 08-12-2017, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
Looks like Trump and his AltRight Nazis are more intent at present on declaring war on the University of Virginia.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...tue/561833001/
Yep, skirmishes are even breaking out this morning there. Today was doing a live reporting from there and was interrupted when a quick fight broke out.

No police of any kind have yet interfered (last I saw).
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  #412  
Old 08-12-2017, 01:50 PM
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Yep, skirmishes are even breaking out this morning there. Today was doing a live reporting from there and was interrupted when a quick fight broke out.

No police of any kind have yet interfered (last I saw).
The police really have not done anywhere near an adequate job either of quelling the initial presence of Nazi agitators, nor later in shutting off the access streets to safeguard the UVA students and other counter-protesters who courageously took a stand against the Nazis resulting in this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzUa0UNxJ04

This, not surprisingly, was Trump's response:

http://thehill.com/homenews/administ...ottesville-sad

Quote:
Am in Bedminster for meetings & press conference on V.A. & all that we have done, and are doing, to make it better-but Charlottesville sad!
What a pos.

Compare that even to Paul Ryan:
Quote:
The views fueling the spectacle in Charlottesville are repugnant. Let it only serve to unite Americans against this kind of vile bigotry.
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  #413  
Old 08-12-2017, 06:44 PM
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Militarily, we pretty much can always win but its really easy to lose the peace in an asymmetric low-intensity guerrilla conflict like all of those listed.

Blowing shit up, destroying standing armies, etc? Yeah, we're awesome at that and we pretty much can always eliminate that sort of threat.

Gulf War I and Gulf War II were identical until the occupation started after Gulf War II. We utterly destroyed Saddam's army with minimal casualties both times. The first time around was particularly impressive given they were a battle hardened army with modern equipment defending their home...and we crushed them in half a week. Gulf War II didn't last much longer. The occupation of Iraq was a disaster though. Just like the occupation of Afghanistan after we kicked the shit out of the Taliban and Al Qaida fighting forces there in the initial invasion.

We never really lost a conventional battle in Vietnam either...even Tet was a massive defeat of the NVA that essentially made them combat ineffective in S. Vietnam until the end of the war.

Bay of Pigs wasn't an American invasion...it was an idiotic CIA backed coup attempt where JFK refused to use our military to support them. Had he done so, we would have rolled over Castro's forces and then likely lost Berlin in the process likely causing a world war.
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  #414  
Old 08-12-2017, 07:21 PM
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I really need to stop reading the comments on Yahoo's news section. Let's just say that today's story is bringing out the worst of people.
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  #415  
Old 08-12-2017, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
Looks like Trump and his AltRight Nazis are more intent at present on declaring war on the University of Virginia.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...tue/561833001/
Those who remain silent when "Black Lives Matter" cause chaos have no room to speak regarding alt-right protesters. It's hilarious seeing Hollywood freakout about what started as a peaceful protest when they supported the rioting and looting BLM and Antifa have done over the past few years.

It would've been best if people had just stayed away and let alt-right protest. If they weren't harming others or destroying property (as BLM did) they should've been left alone. Those with an ounce of sense know what alt-right stand for, so let them be and don't fuel the fire, which is what they want. If they want to support the treasonous South of the 1860s, so be it. The hypocracy is really showing on this board (as usual) and on the Left (as usual).
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Old 08-12-2017, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Southpaw2012 View Post
Those who remain silent when "Black Lives Matter" cause chaos have no room to speak regarding alt-right protesters. It's hilarious seeing Hollywood freakout about what started as a peaceful protest when they supported the rioting and looting BLM and Antifa have done over the past few years.

It would've been best if people had just stayed away and let alt-right protest. If they weren't harming others or destroying property (as BLM did) they should've been left alone. Those with an ounce of sense know what alt-right stand for, so let them be and don't fuel the fire, which is what they want. If they want to support the treasonous South of the 1860s, so be it. The hypocracy is really showing on this board (as usual) and on the Left (as usual).
Oh, no, there's plenty of room to speak. See Alt-Right assholes are fascists and want to take rights from people. The BLM want to have the same rights as others. Is it a shitstorm all the way down and misused by people that just want to cause trouble? Sure. Their goals though aren't nearly as bad.

It's funny. People drive cars into crowds over in Europe and they're immediately called terrorists. That's done by, presumably, a white person over in the US? "Both sides are to blame."
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  #417  
Old 08-12-2017, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Southpaw2012 View Post
Those who remain silent when "Black Lives Matter" cause chaos have no room to speak regarding alt-right protesters. It's hilarious seeing Hollywood freakout about what started as a peaceful protest when they supported the rioting and looting BLM and Antifa have done over the past few years.

It would've been best if people had just stayed away and let alt-right protest. If they weren't harming others or destroying property (as BLM did) they should've been left alone. Those with an ounce of sense know what alt-right stand for, so let them be and don't fuel the fire, which is what they want. If they want to support the treasonous South of the 1860s, so be it. The hypocracy is really showing on this board (as usual) and on the Left (as usual).
I understand the legitimacy of the grievances that the BLM movement is fighting to draw attention to. That doesn't change the fact that (much like with its precursor BAMN) I find that their tactics have been mostly counter-productive in that they have tended to both alienate their allies and to rile up and engender latent racist inclinations in their opposition. Still, unlike the Nazis/KKK types, BLM is at least fighting for a noble cause.

The Antifascists are anarchic idiots, many of whom seem little more than hooligans. Most of the civilians and students protesting though seemed like they were just residents and students who were pissed off that a few thousand Nazis had descended upon their city. This wouldn't have gotten so far out of hand if the cops would have done more to separate the groups, to separate the Nazis from their renaissance & weekend warrior weaponry, and to barricade the streets so that Nazi couldn't have rammed his car into that crowd of peaceful counter-protesters.

Many republican leaders seemed to have no trouble at least making a completely unambiguous condemnation of the Nazis and everything that they represent. It is disgusting that the president decided instead to maintain enough nuance to his response so that the Nazis wouldn't feel alienated.

This is not evidence of hypocrisy Southpaw. The confederacy was evil. The KKK is evil. Nazis are evil. BLM is not evil. We don't support rioting or looting. Or racism.

You seem far more bothered by BLM than by the Nazis.
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Old 08-12-2017, 10:32 PM
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I understand the legitimacy of the grievances that the BLM movement is fighting to draw attention to. That doesn't change the fact that (much like with its precursor BAMN) I find that their tactics have been mostly counter-productive in that they have tended to both alienate their allies and to rile up and engender latent racist inclinations in their opposition. Still, unlike the Nazis/KKK types, BLM is at least fighting for a noble cause.

The Antifascists are anarchic idiots, many of whom seem little more than hooligans. Most of the civilians and students protesting though seemed like they were just residents and students who were pissed off that a few thousand Nazis had descended upon their city. This wouldn't have gotten so far out of hand if the cops would have done more to separate the groups, to separate the Nazis from their renaissance & weekend warrior weaponry, and to barricade the streets so that Nazi couldn't have rammed his car into that crowd of peaceful counter-protesters.

Many republican leaders seemed to have no trouble at least making a completely unambiguous condemnation of the Nazis and everything that they represent. It is disgusting that the president decided instead to maintain enough nuance to his response so that the Nazis wouldn't feel alienated.

This is not evidence of hypocrisy Southpaw. The confederacy was evil. The KKK is evil. Nazis are evil. BLM is not evil. We don't support rioting or looting. Or racism.

You seem far more bothered by BLM than by the Nazis.
Of course he's more upset by BLM. They're "left" and therefore the enemy. Say what you will about the Alt-Right and the Nazis, they're at least not-left, so *makes vague hand-wave gestures*.
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Old 08-13-2017, 03:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
Compare that even to Paul Ryan:
Quote:
The views fueling the spectacle in Charlottesville are repugnant. Let it only serve to unite Americans against this kind of vile bigotry.
I was going to ask which side Ryan considered "vile bigotry"; the car wielding nazis or the BLM protesters who want equal rights for everyone. Southpaw seems to have answered that question before I asked it, which was nice of him.

Southpaw, if you think that black lives do not matter, then do you think you have any reason to assume that any other human lives do have any value?
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Old 08-13-2017, 11:47 AM
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A Nazi named James Alex Fields Jr. plows into a crowd. Trump's response? "So sad!"

What would have his response been had the driver been named Mohammed Ahmed Hussein?

POS Nazi, POS President.
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